Well, Ryan, thanks for taking the time to chat with me. I'm really looking

forward to this chat because of course, your personal trainer Osteopath

combo. I find these two areas absolutely fascinating. So I'm

super excited to, to really pick your brain and learn a lot more about what

you do, but I'd love to start with your story. What got you into this

this whole industry in the first place? Yeah.

Starting from a very young age, like, my dad was a huge

influence. He's a big fitness guy.

I've lost vivid memories of growing up working out with

him. He would go on a run, and then me and my siblings would be

riding our bikes trying to catch up with him. So just kind of like

all the fun things was kind of associated with, like, exercise.

And then that kind of just bled into, you know, playing sports,

and then start really enjoying sports because I was, you know, fit and then

also playing sports. So excelled in sports, And then,

you know, went through couple injuries and,

appreciated the recovery process from injuries.

Like, my first experience with a physiotherapist was kind

of hilarious actually because I honestly had no expectations

of what they're gonna do. But, essentially, it was like

torture for about half an hour, where literally it was like them

mobilizing my broken ankle, and it was just like I was biting into

the pillow and, so I was like, oh, like, it was it was not

necessarily pleasant, but it was very helpful. Like, I was able to recover,

get back to playing sports very quickly. So I was very appreciative of it.

But, yeah, that was kind of, like, what my thought of what physiotherapy was. But

then later on, I started I have had more injuries and realizing,

okay. It's not actually all of this torture. They're, you know, actually trying to help

you recover, giving you exercises. That was their means of,

you know, rehab. So I was like, oh, this is really cool. I really appreciate

what they did for me. It motivate me back into, you know, playing sports

again because it's can be pretty traumatic sometimes having an injury when you're,

like, training really hard. And I know for me, like, I was trying

to make it into, you know, hockey was, like, my main sport. And

so I played some higher level camps that, you know, I want

to make it big and, yeah, when you get an injury, it's kind of like

that mental part of, like, oh, like, I put all this effort in. So,

just for that mental support too from the therapist was

very appreciative. So that's kinda what got me into

the field was, like, I really loved what they were doing for me

and also just like how exercise made me felt. So I

utilized exercise as a way to help people feel better. So

that was kind of like what, you know, got me into osteo was, like, I

was a trainer. I went to university, want to just learn more about the

body and how we can help people. And then, yeah,

eventually, you know, osteopathy kind of fell into my lap. I

was, training people and osteo came

to came to my gym and, you know, I I

remember him bringing his little pamphlet, trying to explain what it was, and

I still had no idea what it was even after reading everything. And I

feel like that's still kind of fairly common. Mhmm. But

just the concepts she was explaining about how everything's connected, you know,

lifestyle, all those things, it was, like, very, in in line with

what I believed. So that's kinda like what kinda dropped it

into my lane of where I want to go.

And yeah. And then eventually, I heard about the program. It kinda

was like around COVID time too, actually, where I was like, you know, gyms are

all closing and like I was like, oh, man. Like, I feel like I almost

need something to make sure I can still work.

And so that actually that's where I found this osteopathy program.

And actually that was, like, kind of weird timing because, yeah, while everyone was

kind of, like, isolated, that was when I was really studying

osteopathy. So it was cool. That was, like, I was able to kinda have that

extra time where, you know, we weren't socializing. I could just, like,

study the body. So, yeah, that's kind of

in short how, how I got into osteopathy was kind of like

through, through fitness. That's cool. That's cool. I mean, there's

there's a lot of threads I would love to pull in that story.

I I wanna really dig into to what osteopathy is, but

I really appreciated about what you said with, the the sort of mental

aspect of recovering from an injury. And, I mean, I've been there. Many people

have been there, and I think that's something that's that's unfortunately in

most of the manual therapies out there, which in my opinion includes things like

chiro and physio and, certainly

massage and perhaps, Osteo, I would love to know more about what, how much this

is included. But the mental aspect of recovery is

just barely touched upon. But my experience personally in dealing

with clients is like the physical recovery, it's just it's just going to happen. You

know, it doesn't take much much facilitation as the practitioner

to steer that in the the the appropriate direction so the tissue

heals properly. Right. It's relatively simple. But the mental

game of suddenly, you know, like, you're an athlete and you're looking at,

am I am I going to play hockey again, or is this going to stop

me from running? Like, gosh. The mental game is huge. Mhmm.

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. It's like your identity almost becomes like it's like, oh, like,

I'm not this person anymore. So who am I now? But, yeah, I think, yeah,

exactly that mental aspect is just is yeah. I've really not

touched on at all. But I think, it can be a part of it and

some people almost indirectly do it just through their personality, through being empathetic

and that sort of thing. But, yeah, definitely not,

not something that's really thought of as much in terms of, yeah, how it can

affect people's recovery. Mhmm. Yeah. Nope. So that's

that. And that's yeah. It's part of yeah. I will kinda touch on that in

osteopathy how that's a part of how we, you know, get

people feeling better too is that in enforcing that you're not, you're

not broken. You have this endless ability of

of regrowth and healing. So it's, you're not

your injury. You're not your pain. You're you are something that can overcome

those things. So yeah. Just having someone just say that. Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah. Alright. Just like saying that it's possible. Right? It's possible for you to

get better. Like, having someone just to say that because, yeah, sometimes there's that

belief of, no, I'm never get better or I'm always gonna be like this. I

I feel like that's unfortunately something that I hear common where it's like, I feel

like I'm stuck like this always. And, yeah. So

and I thought it can be a hard thing come sometimes to break. Yeah.

Yeah. I totally agree. And I'm I'm curious about,

about your if if you could explain osteopathy, like Yeah. In

a sentence. It was. Yeah. I want I want to, like,

expand it. But the reason I'm curious about this is I find it

so sort of ephemeral. Like, my understanding of osteopathy

is mediocre at best. Right? Because

it's it seems to be something that's quite hard to explain. So do your best

to see if you can explain it, like, in in brief, and then let's, like,

really dig into what it is and what what it can do and all that

type of stuff. Mhmm. Yeah. It's actually funny with,

when people ask you kinda like that elevator pitch of what Yeah. Osteopathy

is. And it's fine because it's it's something that they get us to do in

school where it's like, okay, you need to define it in 50 words or less.

And I remember when I had this assignment, I literally wrote it out,

like, probably 20, 30 times just because I was,

like, not happy with this, not happy with this, feels too wordy.

And, yeah, there's a lot of kind of big concepts to

explain. So, yeah, definitely to I'll I'll do my best here

to try to put it in just, like, one fairly broad sentence here is

that it is like a holistic therapy that utilizes the

anatomy to facilitate healing in the body.

Just to keep it pretty plain and simple.

And also yeah. But again, it's kind of like using when you hear

that, it's okay. But how?

Mhmm. Yeah. And I and I think that's where I dive

into a little more about the principles of osteopathy

because I think, osteopathy is not really a

thing that you do. It's kind of like a thing that you believe.

So again, kind of, can you talk about how the body heals itself. Right? That's

our main belief. Right? Is that you get a cut.

Right? It's gonna heal on its own. Right? But there's gonna be factors that

either speed that healing or can hinder that

healing. Right? I've actually experienced this myself where, you know, playing

hockey, right, get a cut or injury, And then maybe that later

that night, you know, you're drinking with the buddies or something like that. Right?

And I've noticed where, you know, after a night of drinking, that that

scar or whatever doesn't heal very well after a night of drinking. So and

that's just an example. Right? There could be other things like you lack of sleep,

bad nutrition. Right? Maybe you just, like, don't drink any water

at all or you just drink pop all the time. So it's just all those,

like, lifestyle things that all kind of play into it. But

essentially, yeah, like there's so many factors that can impede or

hinder, which can be seen as as kind of a

scary thing, but I look at it as like a thing where it's like we

have so many opportunities for us to improve our health. Right?

Mhmm. So, yeah. So we have this unlimited capacity of of self

healing, and I think that self healing process,

allowed that in terms of what osteopathy is the structure equals

kind of function, and this is not just from a specific

posture kind of standpoint. This goes from everything from the big structures

down to the actual cell structure. So

yeah. And so when things are generally in their ideal structure,

things tend to function really well. Okay. But

let's talk about that. Let's talk about ideal structure. Yeah. So how does how

does Austio help somebody move back to ideal

structure? Like, let's actually define ideal structure first. Sure.

And then, move into how does how does Inosio help a client

move into this? Yeah. Yeah. So, like, every single, I

guess, structure, it's made in a way to perform a

certain function. Right? So, like, if you

have, like yeah. Like, I would say I'll I'll be using the spine as an

example, because the spine has that kind of like s curve.

Right? So you just kind of absorb force. Right? So if you have a spine

that starts to become more straight, right, so it's not gonna be able

to absorb that much force. Right? So I guess the cause of

why that spine is becoming straighter is

numerous. There could be tons of reasons why a spine might start to straighten out.

And that's where we start just diving in. Okay. Like, all the lifestyle

things. Right? Or do we have tons of stress? Are we doing lots of things

for our health? So it becomes like a you start diving into a bit

of a rabbit hole in terms of, like, what is it. But I think from

my standpoint, I'm looking at central structures. I'm looking at kinda, like, the

main things from the center, seeing how they're kind of positioned

because I think those ones really dictate how the periphery in terms of the

shoulders, elbows, knees, how those kinda sit.

So it's generally kind of like my approach is, like, at least can,

adjust central structure so that they are, you know, in that

nice anatomical position. And I

think there are people that just their body adapts to what they do. Right? You

have a boxer. They're gonna start becoming more adapted to

boxing. And I guess, yeah, is that ideal for just

day to day living? Maybe, maybe not. But if their

goal is to be the best boxer in the world, they don't care about anything

else, then that's kind of their that's kind of what is their

their function, is that structure. Right. So that's where it is a little

bit. It's a little fluid. Right? It's a really kind of like if we're talking

just like, okay. I wanna just be functional day to day. We kinda think

about just, like, the general normal positioning for just everyday

function. But, yeah, there's that's where you get into, like, more of, like,

performance based kind of, things. I think then you

kinda have a little bit of change in terms of what that looks like a

bit. But, but, yeah, I think ideally, you still

have balance. You still have the ability to get back into a

good position. You're not, like, always stuck. I

think when I think about, a body that

has really good structure, it has a lot of play.

Like it can move in all different directions. I think about gymnasts

as really good examples. Right? They have so much

flexibility, but they're not just, like, loosey goosey. They

actually have lots of strength and and stability there too. And that's what I think

is what true mobility is is having range by

having control in that range. Right. Yeah. The combination of,

flexibility and stability. Mhmm. Yep. And I think

that's kind of what gives me a little bit of advantage as well as having

that strength conditioning background is that I recognize when

there's times where there's, you know, there's tight muscles

and there's weak muscles. And sometimes they are kind of sometimes

one and the same, but not always. But, definitely, just even

from my history of, like, helping people through fitness,

you can make so much good change by just having some

good technique and form for for your exercises.

But, again, when it comes to going into an osteopathic session,

not always the type of conversation. And even though I like talking about that,

that's not that's not their purpose for necessarily being there. But, again, I do

wanna be a good, ambassador for health and wellness and

fitness because I do believe that, you know,

exercise is really one of the best forms of of self care. And

in terms of holistic side of things, I think it's one of the best things

you could do, if you wanna talk about, you know, fitting into the holistic realm

of things too. Mhmm. As as I was hearing

you describe things, what what came to me is this discussion of ideal structure, the

example you gave of the spine makes complete sense.

And talking about the the physical structures joins largely within that

conversation. But I'm curious within the scope of osteopathy,

is is that is that what you, or osteopaths in

general focus on? Is the anatomical structure making sure that

the joints are doing what they should do, or is there there other

lenses in which an osteo looks through? A 100%. Yeah. Way

yeah. Lots of different lenses, I think. Because you can look at the structure or

you can look at the function. You can look at, you know, are they

functioning well? Are there, movement patterns within

certain organs that are moving well? So we can look at it from

both ways. You can look at it from, like, a structural standpoint, or we can

look at it from a functional standpoint. And I think,

as you learn as an osteo, you you can kind of get pulled

into, like, oh, I'm more of a functional osteo or more of a structural osteo.

And I for myself, I do try not to be 1 or the other. I

do try to do both so I'm not biasing

my my treatments. Mhmm. But, yeah, definitely, I think, yeah, in

terms of, like, other other aspects, yeah, like, it would be just the

the the bones because we know that they kind of influenced each other. So,

that's where there's lots of people I've, like you know, they have back pain or

neck pain, and then I'll look through the spine. It's like,

okay. You know, there might be a couple little things, but it's not like, okay.

You're, like, completely sideways. So it's like Mhmm. In this regard

for the spine, though you you have pain in the spine, right,

there's not really any structural stuff I'm seeing. Right? So it becomes more of, like,

alright. There's functional things that are happening here that probably more

influencing what's going on here. Right. Right.

What's it what's it like going for an audio session? Because I was thinking about

what you're saying, what your first Visio experience, you know, just biting the pillow with

pain and, the the out, the effect was good, but

the the process itself was painful. Is that is that something that

osteos do as well? It's just like we cause pain, or is it

more of a gentle, relaxed, what what or somewhere in between? What's it

like? So honestly, I would say

it's like pure treatment. Pure

treatment as in, like, you know, if you're expecting to say, hey. I'm gonna give

you a treat. Right? You're expecting something that's really

nice, and that's that's what I think osteopathy. It's really

nice, really enjoyable, really gentle. I'm definitely

this is case by case because there's gonna be some times where you're coming in

with lots of pain. Right? And there's gonna be times where, yeah, it's like we

might not be able to, you know, relieve any pain right in that

exact moment. It might take a little while. But I would say for the

most part, our main goal is to make sure that you're staying out of pain

as much as possible. Osteopathy is considered

an art form where we can adjust our techniques,

their positioning, our positioning, to however we need to in or

in order to accomplish that, you know, not stimulating any

pain in the person. So that's kind of, like, our whole goal. And I

always say that, you know, sometimes if I'm feeling things, right, I'm I'm kind of

feeling a certain area, I don't know how sensitive you're gonna be. So I try

to keep my touch always as gentle and soft as I can. But

no matter how soft you are, sometimes things are still gonna be sensitive.

So, but that's where I'm not, like, really grabbing on because

that would, I think, definitely give that people, that person a little

more of that stimulus. But, yeah, we're just

very gentle, and I think that kinda goes with how we affect cell structures

too is our our touch has to be super soft because that's how

we try to create fluidity within the cells. It's that simulation

of soft touch. So, yeah, I would say when people go to

see it, it can vary. Like, people will fall asleep on my table,

which I actually I think it's awesome because it's like they really just

need relaxation. Not expected.

And I don't necessarily tell people, oh, yeah. You're gonna fall asleep or anything like

that, but I just kinda say if you do tend to doze off, it's

okay. Like, I I can still do all the things that I need to do.

But, yeah, every single treatment I've ever received has been

I look forward to Osteo. Unfortunately, like, yeah, like,

I love massage. I love all forms of of self treatment, but,

in terms of ones that I just feel the most relaxed

after, I would say osteopathy. Yeah.

Like and I just, like, I have tight muscles, so, like, whenever I get massage

done, like, I know there's certain spots that are just, like, I'm kinda gripping a

little bit. And I I know maybe to some degree that's good, but,

yeah, for just if you wanna just feel completely relaxed and zen

and, yeah, I feel like that's where osteopathy comes

in. It's just so so relaxing. I've, I've

had this this hip problem. It's just started to

spontaneously out of nowhere last October. And I mean, I'm I'm in this

world. Right? Like, I I do I I should be able

to figure out what's going on with my hip. So I could I go

you name the modality. I tried. Like, I seriously went through the

checklist of everything I could possibly come up with. Mhmm. It was months

months of treatment and the amount of money I sunk into it, and it was

locked. Like, almost no movement and 9

out of 10 pain. Oh, dear. And I started to get a bit of

freedom, bit more mobility back in there just gradually because, you know, time

does a lot of good for these types of things. Yeah. But not too long

ago, I, I went to a session, and it was sort of a

I just say a bodyworker in general, somebody with, like, a bunch of different

tools. And, and she grabbed my leg. I was lying on my

side, grabbed my leg, and so gently and this was a a

osteo technique. So gently moved

my hip through range of motion, and it was like like snail

pace bringing into flexion and slowly bringing it into

extension. And there is this one spot

that she just felt and held it there. That was it. Yeah.

Just held it in the stuck spot. And my feeling wasn't

pain. There was no pain, but there was definitely a sensation of, like,

What's that? Mhmm. Something there. Like, my body was was not bracing but

prepared. Yeah. She just held it. It was so gentle. And

then she let it go gently. And sure enough, my range of motion was, like,

almost a 100% after that. I just it was unbelievable. And I

I valued that gentleness and that listening. Because from my

understanding, osteopaths really learn to to listen to

their clients' bodies. Yes. That is like a huge

skill. Absolutely. I I I recall

actually very vividly going into school. And with my background as as a

personal trainer, because a lot of people go to the program are usually have a

background massage or physio or chiro, some sort of hands on

therapy. And so I remember my, facilitator was like, you're gonna

struggle. You're this is gonna be something that's gonna be hard for you because you

just don't have that practice. And I took that challenge to heart. I was like,

okay. Let's get our hands on people. Let's start getting on different

bodies. Let's really start to feel. Let's start to challenge my touch.

And, yeah, definitely. It's a it's your main tool

is is your hands. And so I think that's a it's just

an ongoing skill because I I still look at some of the, some

osteos and, like, the way they can just, like they just go. They just, like,

they just feel and I I don't I'm not quite to that stage where I'm

just, like, just naturally there. It's still a little bit of that intuition really

kind of listening in, but I can just see, yeah,

some some people just have that that sense where it's just like they just go

right to it. So it's quite amazing how sometimes you can really

refine. And definitely, it's a huge part of our our practice

in in terms of, like, finding out what's going on. It's sometimes to the point

where you trust your touch more than you

trust what the person's telling you is going on. They're, like, saying,

oh, okay. Everything's up here. It's right here in my shoulder. Like, all the

problems, all the pain right here. But then when you start listening to

the body it's like, hey, well why am I getting pulled over to your hip

here then? Or why am I getting pulled over to your knee or wherever here.

Right? It's like there's this intelligence within the body that, you know, your

body has that record of all the things that's happened to it, but your mind

not may remember all those things. And it's actually happened a lot

in sessions where, I'm working with someone

and, you know, they kinda they're, you know, I've asked them their their history of,

like, oh, have you had injuries? This and that. And then we're already kinda going

in through assessments and treatment. They're like, oh, actually, I forgot that I broke my

leg, 2 years ago. I was like, ah, yeah.

Mhmm. That would make sense with what we're feeling maybe here.

So, yes, it's kinda fine where it's like there's times where you really you trust

your hands a lot in terms of, what you feel. And I think that's a

part of the skill is, that trust. It's like there's something where I was

like, why am I kinda, like, question it. You're like, well, why am I getting

pulled over here? It doesn't really make sense. But, yeah, you just have

to trust your intuition on what the body is telling you is what's going

on. So it's having that trust. Has has that been

something that you've had through your whole life? Like, if you've been a fairly

intuitive person and really in touch with that, or was that something that once you

started getting into osteo and body work that, you know, light bulb turned on? Like,

what what was that process like for you to learn to trust your own

intuition? And a follow-up question to that is, how do you know?

Like, what what sensation, what voice, what

idea pulls you towards something?

Yeah. That's a good question. Yeah. I feel like actually it's

funny because, like, I feel like my fine motor skills were never super

great. I remember growing up trying to do sewing and knitting and having the

hardest time trying to do all those little things. So definitely that was a skill

that I had to really work on developing. And actually, funny enough, one

of the things that I did was I used a a food scale,

and I used my food scale to kind of soften my

pressure. Because there's certain techniques in osteopathy where we're only using

5 grams of pressure. And so you

realize how hard you're pushing when you have a food scale, and I was like

when I was practicing, I was like, oh, I'm using, like, 50 or a 100

grams of pressure, not 5. And then so you realize how

soft you can be and how

that soft touch can start changing things, because your body

is very resilient. It kinda understands. If you're trying to force something, something, it's not

gonna let you do it. But if you're trying to work with it,

yeah, it's a lot more, receptive to that type of change.

That's something I've just noticed day in day, and it's one of those things I

I I still blows my mind because, you think 5

grams of pressure. Like, what's that gonna do?

But I'm proven time and time again

how effective those types of treatments are where less is

more, which from a personal trainer standpoint feels very backwards

where, okay. Yeah. I got overload, you know, push the weights. But it's

it's, yeah, it's very different when you're trying to provide treatment.

So Such a cool balance. That's such a cool balance for for you to hold

this this one modality personal training, which is very much like

like optimized when you when you do overload, progressive overload,

followed by this other modality, which is optimized by,

minimum effective dose. Like, how how's the least amount of effort I can

put into this and still get an effect. Wow. That's really cool.

That's really cool. It it is really, like, yeah, that balance of, like,

yeah, I guess, you know, we gotta still work your body to make it

resilient, but also be gentle and, yeah, just knowing how

to just give yourself that self care and love. Yeah.

It's a it's a good So we've talked a fair bit about what Austeo is,

but I'm curious now about the the misconceptions because, you know,

defining it can be somewhat difficult. But I think a lot of people have an

idea or maybe a lack of idea or misconceptions, misunderstandings about what what

osteo is. So what what are some of the most common misconceptions

that, you come across in the world of osteo? Yeah. I

think the most common one other than, like, people think it's like

we just treat bones. I think the other one is

that we're kinda like that blend

of massage, physio,

chiro, which I I have

done that in the past where I've said is that just because I know people

know what those things are. But I don't usually

like to, say, oh, it's like this because I don't know

I'm not a chiro. I'm not an osteo, you know, or not I'm not physio.

So I I can't really speak on exactly what they do. All I can only

say it from my experience.

But, yeah, I I would say that,

Yeah. I'm just trying to think, I guess, a little bit more deeply on,

the the biggest concept. Yeah. It's just that people think it's kind of one of

those other things because there's not really anything else that they can, like, really

associate with. Because I think it is its own thing, really.

Like, I could say, yeah, like, there's certain techniques that are

similar to massage, but their intentions are different.

And there might be some techniques that are similar to kairo, but

again, our scope is broader. Our intention is broader.

So I think there's, like, a lot of similarities of of how they

blend, but we're just our own thing, because I think

just that softness is something, again, from

my experience is nothing else I've ever seen. I don't I don't see

that gentleness in unless you're asking for it in a massage,

which I usually do. I usually ask for the softest touch. But

even then, sometimes it that's not it's not nearly as soft as it would be

in an osteopathic session. So Right. So Right. I think that's the thing

is, like, it is its own thing.

But, yeah, just to make it so it's not like it's a good people kind

of understanding it. It is a little bit a blend of all those three things.

Like, I think it's like the physio where they're very in-depth with their

assessments. That's kind of where we're similar in. Obviously, with

adjusting the spine, we're similar with the chiro. We don't do

manipulations with the actual cracking noise kinda thing.

And then with massage, yeah, like, we're working on soft tissue, but, again,

our our touch is just a lot different. And Mhmm.

I can think how we work with I I again, I'm not a massage

therapist, so I don't really know exactly what your guys' intentions are.

But I I think our intention is on the fascial

system. And again, maybe maybe that is something that

massage therapists are working on. But, yeah, that's kind of, like, what

our intention is. It's, like, we're working on fascia. Definitely muscles

may not be on a muscle, but our intention is the fascia

encompassing that muscle. Yeah. Mhmm. Same thing with with

the bones. Yeah. It's the fascia around the bones. Yeah.

So you've got these kind of 3 modalities in

which us just kind of like it in various ways.

But then one of the things I'm curious about is

what's the other stuff? You know, so I kind of see these these, like, little

techniques kind of that are are not borrowed, but similar to

these other three modalities. But what what makes it its own

thing? Like, what is the stand apart characteristic

of osteo? Yeah. Well, I think because we could

say, oh, it's holistic, but I think, you know, you know, acupuncture is holistic

too. Right? Mhmm. So I I would say it's that,

in terms of, like, the things that we work on, like, I

don't know any other practitioner unless there are specific,

visceral manipulation therapist. I don't know any other therapists that are gonna be

working on organs, right, where they're actually doing mobilization

techniques on the kidney or whichever. So I

think that is the really the biggest thing I think,

because there are, modalities like craniosacral

therapy That is its own thing where you can be

a craniosacral therapist. And I think there are it's probably a little bit more

popular that there's craniosacral therapist than, like, visceral therapists, So that's where

I'm kinda saying I think visceral manipulative therapy is kind

of what osteopathy is, kind of its thing, even though we we kind of

do all of them. Right? We do. We work on the the joints, the muscles,

the, the fluids, the craniosacral, the

visceral. All those things were kind of blending together. I think that's, I

guess, what distinguishes us is that we're we're blending all these different

modalities to create, you know, the best change for our

clients. I take it. And, Kathy, you were saying for me. Can we talk

sorry about that. Oh, I'm sorry. No. It's okay. I was just good just quickly

wanted to say just how it's, like, the mint using the the the smallest amount

of changes to make, the biggest effect. So

yeah. Mhmm. I I like that word holistic. Right? It

is a holistic medicine. And what I'm curious about is

throughout the discussion, the the tissues that

you described, it was all it was all body. Right. But when I think holistic,

I think body, mind, soul, I think about this combination. Yeah. So with an

osteo as a holistic medicine, what aspects of mind

and soul get brought into the picture? Yeah. So

I I think of well, let's talk about the talk about the spirit and the

soul here first because I think it kind of blends into the mental a little

bit. Yeah. When I think about the the spiritual aspects of things,

I think about just how in tuned they are with their own

body. So there's the there'll be times throughout a session

where I'll be like, okay. I want you to breathe where my hands are right

here. I might be on, you know, an organ or a sphincter

or just a muscle, Or I'll get them to like, I want

you to push this direction written to my hand. So I'm getting

them to coordinate with their own body a little bit. So I think there's

a little bit of that kind of happening naturally as I'm going through

assessments. But then also just like the very beginning

process of the intake. Right? Explaining that osteopathy

is holistic, that we work on the mental, spiritual, physical aspects of health, that

they all kind of help each other. And I think just even explaining

that concept isn't its own form, a way of, like, being,

oh, like, I I'm not just a body. I can I can

help my body through other means? So I think just explain

that can be very helpful. And then as you go through the intake form where

we're kind of, like, talking about maybe traumas,

maybe past injuries, relationships,

stress, sleep, as we're just talking about all the aspects in our life, it kinda

starts making them recognize things in their life that could

be influencing their health. There's a lot of times where we're just, like,

talking about things. We're like, oh, actually, you know, I never thought about how she

how much water I drink. I have drink no water ever. And that's

just, you know, example. But, yeah, I think that's just

getting came some recognition of, like, what's happening within all. It's taking a step back

and being, like, looking at their life from an outside perspective. And I think

it's looking outside not only from looking at their life, but looking at even

just at their own thoughts, their own emotions. Right? Being

able to, like, take that step back and be like, okay, I have this feeling

of anger or fear. You know, that's an interesting feeling that I'm

feeling right now. Right. I may not understand why I'm feeling that right

now, but it's just recognizing that you can that you are

there. And then I guess, yeah, in terms of this kind

of more of, like, the actual discussion part, I think, in terms of the holistic

and spiritual aspects. But I

think it's like just empowerment even too. Right? I'm wanting

to empower them that, again, their body can

recover. Right? They're not broken. They they have that

ability to heal. So I even when I explained to all

of my patients, my new patients, those principles of osteopathy.

And sometimes that's something that's a a new concept for them. It's like, oh, my

body self heals, like, in in every aspect, not just,

like, little minor cuts and bruises. Right? Everything.

So but again, just that varying there's varying levels of how much people

can heal just because we've had so much individual stuff in our lives,

even things from genetics, right, passed down from generations. Right?

So, you know, there's there's a lot of things of improvement,

but, yeah, we do know there are limitations. It's not like osteopathy is

the end all be all. Once you see an osteopathy, you're you're good. Right? I

think Mhmm. Yeah. Allopathic medicine still

very important, obviously. I I think osteopathy

is not gonna be replacing that, but I think osteopathy should be

a consideration for, you know, supplementing with that

because there's not any side effects really when it comes to

osteopathic treatment opposed to taking medications. And again, I'm

not against medications by any means, but,

definitely, I feel like that is just the common thing to go for is the

is this calm. You know? And I get it. Right? If I wanna give her

my pain, I take a pill, easy, opposed to getting treatment

done. But, again, sometimes it's like that short term fix versus that

long term solution. Right. So when somebody comes

to see you, what's what's like a timeline? I mean, I know I

know that you can't be like, it's exactly 6 weeks because every case is

different. But, you know, like using the allopathic medicine, somebody goes to their

family doctor. How many times are you going to see your doctor about that issue?

Well, probably once to get your medication prescription and then maybe to get a

refill. Yeah. Somebody comes to see me as an acupuncturist,

and it's rarely a one and done situation. So what's it

like with Osteo? Yeah. I think, it can I think

it can be similar? There's times where if someone's been

having stuff going on for 20, 30, 40 plus

years, in my mind, I'm already kind of like, okay.

I'm not expecting to fix it all today. You know, ideally,

yeah. That'd be great. But, yeah. There are times

where, people come in with headaches or migraines

or something, and it gets

significantly better after one session. And then I'm like, awesome.

Right? So I think, yeah, very much can vary. I think,

I I think the effectiveness of osteopathy

I think when people have a lot of pain already or they

have a lot of, like, stress going into it, I

think that does, just it just almost limits, I

guess, the the number of things that we can do to help someone because,

yeah, there's there's a lot of techniques that we do that take energy out of

people. And if they already have, like, no energy to begin

with, then it just kinda narrows down a little bit of some of the stuff

that we're gonna be doing. So, ideally, we wanna get them to the point where

they can have a little bit more freedom of movement or they have, you know,

not as much, not as much stuff going on. But, again, it's

not that we turn people away. It's just like I I just noticed that I

would love to do more with them, give them more treatment but that's

not what their body needs. So and that's that's the thing is like people want,

give me all the treatment. I can handle it. I swear. And it's like, I

I get you. You wanna feel better, but we have to do it on

your body's time, not not on your time. Mhmm. So

that's, I guess, yeah. Unfortunately, it is a little bit of a go around where,

yeah, it's it's not, not necessarily a set straight straight cut and dry,

but I think a lot of it is around just, like, you know, longevity of

how long an issue has been. But I definitely had cases where people had for

a long time, and then it gets really, you know, really big

improvements after only a few sessions. And then the opposite happened

where it's like, okay. There's no improvement or very minimal improvement.

So, yeah, unfortunately, it does kind of vary a little bit. Mhmm.

But, yeah, I I would say people generally do feel noticeable

results after a couple sessions. And I I know for myself, if

I'm working with someone and they're not really getting much results after a few

sessions, right, I'm referring other to other people.

I'm also just, you know, I'm trying to tell you, hey. There's there's so much

stuff for us to uncover. Right? It does take time for us to kinda look

through all these things. And I know for myself, I try to improve, so I'm

not spending as much time trying to figure out what's going

on. But, yeah, just part of the practice.

Mhmm. Yeah. It makes me curious about about the the

common challenges. Like, are there other things

that that come up regularly for you as an osteo where you're like, oh, man,

this is this is challenging. This is hard. Or you specifically,

individually within your practice? So what are what are, like, the big challenges that that

you encounter in your practice? Yeah. Some of the challenges.

I think some of the challenges would be well,

I think the the biggest challenge is no one knows what osteopathy is. So

I think the the expectation, of

what, you know, what am I gonna expect? Some people have, like, no expectations. Generally,

people don't because they're like, it's something I don't know a whole lot so,

you know, I'm not expecting anything. But some people have

this expectation of, like, I'm gonna be healed. I'm gonna

be a 100% better. So I think that's

one of the challenges is just kind of going off this the start and be

like, hey. This is, you know, trying to lay down some expectations.

Right? Ideally, yeah, they're better after one session, but

there's there's never any guarantees for that. But Right. Generally,

it's like I'm putting pieces of the puzzle back together. So how much

improvement, you know, varies. But I think overall, I think

there is some improvement always after a session whether it's felt right

away or later on. I think that's just what depends.

So no one no one knowing what us do is, it definitely sounds like a

challenge for for many reasons, but one of the things that came up for me

is how do you get clients? Like, if if there's this,

like, you hand out a card and it's like, I'm an osteo. People are like,

cool. Like, how But, yeah.

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. So what's that process like?

Mhmm. Yeah. I I think a lot of it is just like you're working with

other health practitioners, other

Yeah. Or other just health related people. Like, you know, a lot of my clients

were initially just training clients, people who are just wanting

to take care of their health and wanted to be, you know, independent and have

long, happy lives. So, yeah, it's really just you

find those people that are either really struggling with something,

physically, mentally. Yeah. Because

they're generally, like, they've tried all the things usually is what I find. It's like

they've tried massage, they tried chiro, they tried and again, maybe

they tried it once. So it's like, I'm not gonna be like, oh, you tried

it once? Oh, it probably won't work for you ever again. Like, yeah. There's

definitely other practitioners that might still be able to help there.

But, yeah, it's just kind of like you find people who just, like, are struggling

to find results, trying to struggle to find

resolve to their issues. So it's kind of I guess that

in that sense, it is nice. I feel very, privileged

to help people who, you know, are really just trying to find a solution.

And I know for myself, I've been there. I've been there where I've struggled

with pain and we're like, you know, like you're mentioning, like, doing literally

all modalities do I'll do anything. I'll do everything to try and

resolve, you know, resolve it. So I think, yeah, in

terms of finding those clients, it's just like just trying to,

get get other practitioners to feel a

session. Like, I I I work with a lot of them. I just say, like,

hey. If you haven't had one, I'll just give you one because I want

you to understand what it feels like to go through a session.

So sometimes it's just you get a better understanding after feeling a session than

an explanation. Mhmm. But, yeah, throughout the whole

process of a treatment, I'm also explaining what I'm

doing too. So I think that helps them understand as well

because there's a lot of things where I could, though, just say nothing the whole

time, and they would have no clue. They would no idea what I'm

doing. And they probably be like, yeah. And that's where we get this thing of,

like, oh, you're magicians. You're wizards because, you know,

I don't know what you did, but you helped me. Right? And I think

all that's it sounds nice, but it's like, I I think we'll

wanna get away from us being these magicians to more of, like, okay, where are

these actual science anatomy based, you know, practitioners

that are helping through just our understanding of how the body works?

Yeah. Yeah. I certainly appreciate that aspect of it is,

excuse me, that, Austio seems to be

doing its very best to be, founded in

science and yet still keeping space

open for those other two pillars of integrative medicine being the

mind and the soul. I really appreciate that about Osteo. And one of the reasons

I'm grateful for this conversation is my experience with

osteopathy is universally good. Be it, a,

just simply relaxation, just this feels good and I'm enjoying the

process, or this is profoundly effective. So I'm really

grateful that that the the education aspect is is a major

part of this conversation. And, within that, there's one

curiosity that came up through our conversation. I'd like to loop back to visceral. Excuse

me. I need to clear my throat here. Yeah.

Yeah. I'd like to loop back to visceral manipulation. Mhmm. And I'm

I'm very curious about it because in in acupuncture and Chinese medicine,

it's all about the organs. Right? Like, one of the main lenses in which we

look at the body is understanding characteristics of

organs. And when we learn about organs, we learn about them

in multiple different ways. But one of the simplest ways I describe

how we view organs in Chinese medicine is you kind of view them as

characters. You know, they've got their own personalities, their own energetic

and spiritual functions. Yes. The liver does the thing that the liver does

physiologically. That is certainly a thing. But, also, the liver

is the organ that's associated with anger. The liver is the organ that's associated with

dreams, with growth. The liver moves chi. It's got all of

these other functions. Mhmm. So when you view

organs with an osteopathy, are you just, like, massaging

the liver because you think the liver needs to do one of its 360

functions, or is there something else going on with this or

manipulation that's more akin to, what we do

in in PCM? Mhmm. Yeah. I saw like I

guess whenever I'm thinking about working on an organ,

like, again, I'm using my palpation skills. I'm using my listening skills because,

in terms of, like, what pulls me to, like, okay. I'm I'm treating the

liver here. It's based on just, like,

the basically, I guess, the the little

lesions, I guess, is kind of what the my main understanding is is

that whether it's like this lesion is developed through

its lack of functioning or lack of fluids going to that organ

or maybe there's a structure associated around that liver

that's affecting its movement or affecting fluid flow.

But essentially, yeah, it's like I'm palpating and I'm feeling

I literally feel my hand being pulled towards the

liver. Alright. So I I do like a a general listening technique where

I'm I'm putting pressure on the top of their head and their body will

tip in a certain direction. And it's actually very cool. It's a it's something I

show people a lot where I'll do it on them right and they'll tip a

certain direction right I'll literally just like poke

the spot that I think is causing this issue, and their body will just

naturally come back to center. It's one of the

coolest things actually. And it's like I get people do that same thing where it's

like they got a tight shoulder. I'm like, okay. Touch the organ. Oh,

woah. Look at all the range of motion we have now. And it's just like,

that's just to me, this is so cool. But then we yeah. But then we

go a little more specific where we actually lay them on the table. I'll start

above their pubic bone, just kinda start where the bladder is. I'll actually

sometimes I'll start from the feet because that palpation listening

skill doesn't apply just to organs. It's the muscles into everything. So

I'll go from the feet, work my way up and then okay. Now I'm kind

of in the main area of the organs. Now which way do I get pulled?

But it's fine because you'll get pulled in a bunch of different areas. You get

pulled over here, and you have to do what we call an inhibition technique

where you're turning off the organ kind of like I touch the organ.

It kinda, for some reason, functions or turns off that that

pull towards the body. And so you do that a couple of different times where

I'll actually have to use my patient's hands because I'm like I'm I got like

maybe 3 or 4 organs that I'm getting pulled to so I'm literally using their

hands. Alright. Your hands gonna go here on the sigma colon. I'm gonna put your

hand on the stomach here. And then eventually, we start prioritizing

what is the main one. So once if I let's say have 3 different organs.

Alright. I'll feel on let's say the liver here. I'm feeling

down here by let's say they have the sigmoid colon and I'm

feeling both. And one of my hands is actually just gonna feel like it

gets pushed off. It feels weird. It literally feels like it's getting pushed

off. So if my hand gets pushed off the sigmoid, I know the

liver is the main issue there. It's getting pulled into the liver. So

that's kind of, like, how I go about figuring out which

organ is kind of going up at and, again, there's a little bit of that

intake too where it's like, oh, yeah. They have, you know, pain in their shoulder.

Right? Or they have, yeah, all the kind of associations with

this dysfunctional liver. That's okay. I'm gonna be thinking about that.

But I kinda already talked about a little bit how sometimes they say all these

things that sound perfect for, like, liver dysfunction, but then

we do that visceral listen. It's actually, oh, no. We're getting cold now into their

kidney, which, you know, has a strong relationship with the liver,

but may not actually be caused by the liver. So

Right. Right. Yeah. So body recognition. Yeah. So it is a little

bit of, like, you you're taking in that consideration where you're okay. Like, that's kind

of where I think I would get drawn to, but then you trust your palpation,

and you go with what you feel. Cool. That's

really cool. I I find I find the visceral aspect of osteo to be

very fascinating, so I'm grateful for the explanation. It's it's

awesome. Like, I think I was a little hesitant to do

a lot of visceral off the beginning because it's so, like, oh, you're,

like, playing with people's organs and, like, you know, they're they're not, like, they're

frail. They're not like you just, like, jost them around. So I was always like,

oh, I don't wanna mess people's organs, but I started realizing

that, you know, because it's so gentle, you're not really

ever worried worried about that. And the amount of change you can

see in people in terms of, like, structural change where, you

know, I don't necessarily have to adjust people's spine as much because it's like,

oh, it's actually the organ, and it's actually a lot nicer of a

treatment to get visceral than, let's say a spinal adjustment.

Not to say, like, it's uncomfortable, but just in terms of, like, how

it feels, it's a little bit nicer of a feeling to get a visceral treatment

than a spinal adjustment too. But yeah.

No. It's, it's kind of nice to work that way. Plus it's, you

know, you're generally laying down doing a lot of visual treatment. There are some that

are a little more seated or standing, but, yeah, generally just

keeps the client a lot more relaxed and that's come. My whole goal is, like,

I want you in pure bliss through the whole treatment where it's, like,

you're just in, like, on cloud 9 just relaxing, having a good time. So

that's kind of, like, what I'm keeping in mind too. It's like, as much as

I may need you to roll over, move around, I wanna try to keep

you comfortable and keep the session smooth as possible.

So you have this background as an athlete. You know, you're growing

up very physically active, into sports, hockey, you get into

personal training. As a TCMD, I view

most things through the lens of yin and yang. You know, that's very that's very

yang. It's very energetic. Right? It's very and then and then

there's osteo. And everything I've heard you talk about osteo, it sounds very yin. It

sounds very gentle, slower paced. Right? So I'm curious about

that process for for you as an individual. Like, what

what was that like in your own personal growth, your own spiritual

development? Any any way that we can describe that as you

shifted from this more more young world

of of do and action and and

more more masculine, I guess you could say, to more of this gentle.

How is that? What what happened in your own inner experience as

you spent more of your life in this yin gentle world?

Yeah. Oh, man. I think it was that

shift of, like, focusing more on

my spiritual health, I would say. Because I was like,

so, like, I was like, oh, everything, gym, just

that's fitness. You know, everything's gonna get better if I just get fitter.

And I think that was what really shifted, like,

recognizing their that, you you know, the spiritual mental health are just

like, those are factors that are gonna affect your physical body. And so I was

like, oh, yeah. I don't really spend a whole lot of time focusing on

improving those aspects as much. So I think that was

the big shift just like looking at like defining my purpose, defining

my my meaning in life, and it's funny because as soon as I started

recognizing those things, that improved my mental health too.

Just like feeling so much better.

Yeah. So I would say that was the biggest thing was just shifting from just

everything from just, like, you know, any I guess I talk about

physical just like the gym, but it's even like, yeah, nutrition,

lifestyle, sleep, those sort of things. But, I think

the things that really shift was just, yeah, I was focusing on just

I think that, mindfulness. Yep. Being, like, in tune

with, like, how, not so much the feeling. Because

I've always felt I was fairly in tune with, like, oh, yeah. I feel the

burn in my muscles or I feel the pain in a certain spot. I was

always fairly in tune with that, but it was more of, like, on the

emotional and, like, the thought side of things.

Yeah. Just, like, struggling with just like, oh, like, I have this emotion. I have

no idea what to do with it though. But, yeah, I think now it's

like, okay. I I have these emotions and I just recognize it.

I just recognize it for what it is. It's it's not who I am. It's

just like, I got upset at this thing. Okay.

That's interesting. Right? So I I think just a lot of those

things don't affect me as much where I'm like, oh, like,

these emotions control me so much. I think it's now just like I feel

a lot more I wanna say zen, but I don't like to say

zen. I like to say just like peace. I I feel a lot more at

peace when, right now. Whereas before I was always like, oh,

I need to, like, just, like, constantly just improving my health. But now it's

like I feel just more yeah, more into that spiritual side of things.

And, and definitely, I've I've dove into,

my own religious, experience. I'm a Christian,

so that in itself is helped my

spiritual health substantially. And I think in

turn, it's improved my physical and mental health as well. So,

yeah. I don't necessarily think necessarily when it has to

go to church or go religion, even though I would say that would probably

be helpful. But, yeah. No. I

think definitely it's just recognizing that that is an important part

of what impacts our life. I think just the main thing is just recognition.

It needs to be recognized and seen as important.

I dig that. I like that a lot, and that's that's certainly something I've come

to appreciate more through this conversation about about Osseo. It seems as

though the the process of just simply being in that world

requires a higher degree of balance between these

different aspects of self. And, I'd like to ask you one more question

as our time comes to an end here, and it's the same question that I

ask every single person on the podcast. K. And it's in

your experience, both as a practitioner and somebody who's received treatment,

what do you think makes a successful practitioner?

Oh, that's great. I guess

that, definition of success

is different from practitioner to practitioner because I think

they what their goal is is gonna be different.

But, I think for myself, I

think success is is,

well, I think for it, it's people knowing that you are the person to go

to. You're the go to person that if they have an issue or a problem,

they're gonna go to you. And whether or not I'm the person that actually does

it or I can delegate it to someone else, I

think that's the thing. It's like, I I think just being that person where

it's like, oh, like, I'm having this problem. Oh, I know Ryan can actually help

me with this. I think that for me would be success is

where I have, you know, that strong community of

friends and family that can rely on me for that. I think that would be

my definition of success. And then for, I guess you

can go further of, like, yeah. Like, it's nice to make money doing this too.

But for me, like, if I'm helping people, that's really

essentially the big thing. Like, I I'm gonna get rewarded through through that,

and just by doing doing a good job. And people

can generally feel that, the genuity of, like,

how, you know, you really want to help people. It's not just like you're not

just a number. You're not just like alright. You're not just like paying for my

bills. It's like I genuinely care for your well-being.

Mhmm. I like that. Thank you very much. And is there anything else that you'd

like to add that we didn't cover that you'd like to dig a little deeper

into? Yeah. Like, I

think, I think if we come back, I just guess, a little

bit in terms of, like, that, you know, distinguishing thing from

Osseo and other practitioners, I think the main

thing I tell people is that we work with

fascia. We work with fascia, and fascia and fluids are

kind of very similar because they're if you ever look at fascia from a

microscope, it's like this liquid string.

Mhmm. So I think that's when I think of people and telling

them, like, what we work with, we work with fascia. And,

I I know that fascia term is like, oh, yeah. Fascia.

Sure. But, you know, how how important is fascia? Because it

used fascia used to be seen tossed out long time ago, but we're starting

to recognize how how important it is because it connects

everything together. And there's a lot more fascia in the body than really

is a lot of other stuff. So, I think

that's in terms of, like, you know, the area that we kind of dive in,

it's it's fascia and fluids. And one of the

main principles of osteopathy is that the rule of artery is supreme.

So our blood flow fluids need to get to where

they need to go, and they need to be able to come back. And that's

in price in a similar way with acupuncture where you're working with stagnation.

Right? Right? You wanna keep fluids cycling.

And I think that's kind of the same thing for us. We're recognizing the the

travel, the pathway of where fluids go. So we kinda know if all you

got elbow or, you know, hand pain. Right? And

it's like okay well everything looks good here. Right? We're gonna be looking at subclavius.

We're gonna be looking at that pathway and seeing are these things impinging there.

So just kinda yeah. I just want to touch on that because I can't remember

if I touched on that for, some of the principles of osteopathy.

But, yeah, I think that's an important thing to touch on is just that we're

fascia experts, and that's kind of the that's kind of our

realm. And when you know fascia, you realize how

encompassing fascia is in everywhere in the body. I

a 100% agree. 100% agree with that, and I love it.

So thank you very much for your time. This was a very informative

and enjoyable conversation. And, thanks again.

Thank you, Jess. Yeah. I just wanna thank you for for doing

this podcast. You know, I I think there's we need

more more people like you, and I I just want that's why I wanted to

get on this because I think what you're doing is amazing, and I think we

just we need more people like you out there. And, that's where I just

I'm gonna be promoting the heck out of you, and I just wanna thank you

again for carving some time out for me and giving me the chance to explain

what osteopathy is. So so thank you. Great. My

my pleasure. Awesome. Well, I'm hoping to stay in

touch with you, and we'll, I'm gonna be booking in with you at some point

for a session, I think. But, and then, yeah, maybe we'll we can even do

exchange or something at some point because I think I can remember if I've asked,

did you have you had an osteopathy session done before? I'm just going to

Oh, you had the one. Right?