Hey there. What happens when community theater, political leadership, and grassroots cultural organizing collide? Another way of putting it is how do you herd frogs in a wheelbarrow and build the beloved community at the same time? From the center for the Study of Art and Community, this is Art is Change, a chronicle of art and social change where activist artists and cultural organizers share the skills and strategies they need to thrive as creative community leaders. Now, in this episode, we sit down with the one and only Kathie deNobriga, theater maker, mayor and quiet community agitator, for a wide ranging, laugh filled conversation about art, civic life, and how sometimes organizing humans feels like wrangling frogs in a wheelbarrow. From political theater in her twenties to mayoral town halls in a circle, Kathie shares reflections on storytelling, neighborliness, and what 50 years with the nationally prominent Arts and Change collective Alternate Routes has taught her about building the beloved community bumps, brilliance and all. So in this episode, we'll hear how Kathie's quirky journey from political theater to small town leadership taught her the power of listening, laughter, and shared purpose. We'll also learn how grassroots festivals, community theater and story circles can become secret weapons for tolerance and social change. We'll also discover why humility, mistakes, and the occasional unruly neighbor or a rambunctious cow are essential ingredients for building real, resilient communities. So listen up to hear how one artist mayor has used creativity in conversation to make community one gathering, one laugh, and one story at a time. Part one, the Craft of Perspective.

Alrighty.

All right.

How's that?

That's good. So, Kathie deNobriga.

Very good.

Yeah. You are in Pine Lake, Georgia?

Yes.

And there is a lake there?

Yes. 11 acres.

Are there fish in there?

Yes. And please don't ask me what kind of fish. Bream and just some other kinds of little fish. And people do fish in it. People swim in it. We have it tested twice a week for E. Coli, which is a comforting thought because we actually have a lot of geese that leave their poop around.

So, Kathie, I'll just start with this big, wide, broad, sometimes confounding question. And that is, what is your work in the world?

Wow. Well, I guess I'm doing my work in the world in a stealth mode. And I don't have to explain it to anybody because nobody knows I'm doing it right now. My work is to be kind to myself and to others, listen to people, and help them help themselves if I can. It's to organize people. One of the things that I do which I complain about Bitterly, of course, but it's really a lot of fun, is organizing the annual arts festival here in Pine Lake, which is every October. And so I think one way to work, to work in the world is just by living your life in a way that you feel is honorable and useful. So that's my current work in the world, I think. I mean, I'm doing other stuff that I feel is more ephemeral, maybe more flashier. I mean, one of my ways of working in the world is helping to edit the Alternate ROOTS book, which is coming out in 2026, which covers 50 years of a very interesting, lively organization with lots to talk about.

So how do you explain your work to people who are not familiar with your illustrious history?

I mean, I gave up doing that, Bill, when I was in my 20s, when I tried to explain to my mother and father what I was doing working for the road Company over in Johnson City. We were making political theater out of improvisation and Grotowski and Spolin with Joe. Joe Carson, and taking it to audiences in odd places and saying odd things. And I could never explain to them what I was doing. Oh, I just dropped my computer. Okay. Is everything. Yeah, yeah. So I don't think.

Yeah, well, now you can do an ad for the computer Company.

Yeah, that's great. It didn't fall very far.

So you just did me a favor. You started off by saying, today, this is my work in the world, and then you ran the film back many, many, many, many years to one of those moments that sp sparked a very long, very densely packed, interesting journey of ins and outs and ups and downs, mostly having to do with humans and their stories and the way they share them. And I would just like you to maybe give me the elevator summary of that journey and how the hell you got into it.

Well, it's hard to think of it as a singular journey because it seems to have had some offshoots. But in an elevator speech, well, let's.

Just say the elevator stuck somewhere. So you got a lot of time. And two things you've already mentioned, which is Alternate ROOTS and the Road Company, both of which are legendary, one of which is. Is historic and in the archives, and the other one is historic and alive and well. And one of the things I like to hear from folks is, so what have you learned?

Yeah, well, the most important thing you learn is that you don't know it all. And it is quite possible that you were wrong. And I don't think I knew that in my younger years. I think I hypothesized that might be possible, but now I know it's be true.

So what taught you that?

Just making. Making enough mistakes that you began to see patterns and you began to understand on a deeper level the consequence of your decisions without going into any particulars. But I mean, for me, a lot of those mistakes was around race, and I continue to make them, which is not surprising, really, having been raised a white person with some privilege. It's so interesting because I've learned different things at different points of my life. And what I think I'm learning now is the art and craft of sitting still and thinking and reflection and perspective.

Part 2 ROOTS Well, one of the things that you've done, which I had a glimpse over your shoulder at, is that you have been herding, wrangling an amazing group of people for this alternate ROOTS book, all of whom have shared stories related to this incredible half a century of history of artists trying to make a difference in the world, and in particular in the south of the United States. And I have to imagine that just absorbing that stuff, let alone trying to put it together in a way that is coherent and compelling, has reinforced some of those patterns that you mentioned earlier and taught you a lot about how hard it is to craft a collective history. What's risen up for you from that?

God. Well, I'll go from this, maybe the ridiculous to the sublime. I mean, one of the things that I learned, and it's so specific, and it's probably any rookie editor could have told us this. There was a group of five of us that shaped the first eight years of this book, talking about it, what needed to be in it, who was it for? What did we want it to achieve? What are the stories that had to be told? Who were the writers that had to be represented? We spent a lot of time talking about that. And then as we began to identify, well, what are the people, places, or things or events that we need to talk about? The authors, bless them, always ask, well, you probably know this as a good author, how many words are we talking about? And foolishly, it's like, oh, well, I guess you just should take as many words as you need to to tell your story. Oh, my God, why did we do that? That was based in a value that has a lot of value. And this, all this about first voice and representation and really getting down deep. I mean, all those things with. We were trying to keep the book to 80 to 100,000 words, unfortunately. But we were getting submissions that were like 8 to 10% of our available wordage. And it's like, what do you do? And a couple in particular were so beautifully written. But how do you accommodate that? And I really don't want to talk about what we're doing, we've done with it, because we don't really fully know yet, but the conundrum of dispensing freedom or abundance with one hand and then months later to be chopping and dicing and slicing and doing a Frankenstein number on these folks work, there was a lot of cognitive dissonance there.

Well, but one of the things that's interesting is that I'd say 90% of the people that you're talking to are artists and they have a discipline, and it's called a discipline for a reason. And that is that they're training. And I think, and for most of them who have established practices as creators, they have an internal mandate, which is, I have a lot to say and I have this much canvas or this much stage or these many pages. I mean, it's not that they haven't been through this.

Right, right.

And the interesting thing is, and I've been through this myself before, and that is, I think most artists are having arguments with themselves all the time that are just like yours over their own shoulder. Who do you think you are telling.

Me, telling me what to do?

Right. Well, I'm your. I'm your discipline or whatever. And I think it's a really important question, particularly at this time in our history, in our country, is trying to get focus, trying to be intentional about where you put energy, what you say, how you say it, because it all matters.

Yeah. And being ultra, ultra clear about the terms of engagement so that the expectations around the room are maybe not shared expectations, but at least they're not hidden.

And people can go, I'm in, I'm.

Out, or not exactly, or I'm in for this and not in for this. So that clarity, that ongoing clarity that you need when doing a big project with a lot of disparate people and to maintain that over 10 years, I've gotten unclear myself at times. So.

Yeah. And one of the things about ROOTS is that all of its members, I think that individually, they have an ideal they're always aspiring to, and ROOTS has an ideal. And it's the beloved community writ large. Right. And of course, ROOTS is a collection of humans, so they. That's never going to be perfect, but everybody is so yearning to get it at least as close to perfection as possible. And so it's a 50 year conversation about what does that mean and how.

Do we do this and it's a 50 year conversation with an almost constantly changing cast of characters. So I've been having these kinds of conversations with Bob Leonard for 50 years. I've been having this kind of conversation with Ashley Haze, young person on the rootstaff for exactly one year. Yeah. So where do you. Yeah, so negotiating that history and connection. And also. Yeah, that's. That's quite a dance.

It is. And, and so the interesting thing, and I understand why somebody decided to saddle you with this incredible honor.

Foolishly, I volunteered.

Well, there's that. But also you have the requisite experience because you were a mayor.

Yeah.

And what is that? Other than herding cats and trying to make sense out of a community which actually, I don't know any communities that actually have their minds made up perfectly. It's constantly changing. Right.

It's not about making up your minds, it's about doing something together.

Exactly. Part three. Cats, frogs, shotguns and cows. So, Kathie, how did adding small town mayor to your resume affect the trajectory of your life?

So two things. One is I have given up the analogy of hurting cats to one, I did not make this up. I stole it from somebody about herding frogs in a wheelbarrow, which I just like that image. It just is sort of a happier image.

It is, it's wonderful.

And the other thing is, I've said often that I survived being. I was on city council for eight years, in mayor four for a total of 12 years in elected service. That. And this was some time ago and we had a strong mayor system which I won't go into, but it meant there was a lot to do.

Yes, I know, I know it well.

The analogy that I've drawn is that I looked at it as a big giant community theater production that nobody knew they had been cast in. But as the director, it was my job to help people self motivate towards certain actions. Yes. Without getting too much in front of the scene. I mean, I haven't mentioned, but people might be interested to know that I have a, like maybe a dozen years at two different community theaters, one of which I started, the other one of which I sort of kicked up a notch. But so I have a strong affinity for community theater. And I don't mean community based theater, I mean community theater, little theater movement, which actually I think is a secret weapon for tolerance and people to really work with their neighbors. And it's. And also it's the team sport that doesn't get you bruised on the, on the field.

Yes.

And as a matter of Fact, my first job in North Carolina was for the Parks and Recreation Department. And I always thought it was so enlightening. Enlightened that in between the baseball and the slow pitch softball and the football and the soccer, they had a theater program. And so I got all the kids who couldn't play sports. It was great.

Well, and the operant thing that you just said is. And I mean, I've had a lot of theories in my life, and I boiled them down to, I think, a half a page now.

Wow.

And one of them is just two words which you uttered, which is work with.

Do stuff.

Do stuff with your neighbors.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Whether it's Habitat for Humanity or we have a hard to recycle event here every month where people collect their hard to recycle shit. And there's no. It's nonpartisan. And we've almost forgotten how to trust the power of that because we see it so little.

Yeah. I had a. A really interesting experience in a neighborhood that I did not know my neighbors very well. And my. My dog used to chase cars. And one day the chasing came to its end because the car drove off and there was a dead dog on the road. And that was my sweet dog. And other people were out there. It was the summer in Sacramento, and it was a pretty rough community. And my neighbor just goes back into his house and walks over to me, and he's holding the shovel. He says, where do you want it? And we walked down to our garden and we dug a little hole, and he hardly said a word. We covered the Luna, the little dog. And he just put his hand on my shoulder and there's a tear in his eye. And then he walked home.

Yeah. And then afterwards.

Yeah. I made it a point to go over and say thanks. It was like, that was the hardest thing in the world for him for me to go do that, because it was like, hey, man, this is what people do. It just. I just did it. But I managed to understand that if. If we didn't transcend what I felt was my debt to him, we would never actually be friends. So I paid attention to when he was in his yard, and I would come over and over the fence. We'd just have those little conversations and ask questions about those vegetables or those messed up carburetor.

What is that growing over there by the fence?

Yeah, exactly. And I can tell you right now that we are probably 100,000 miles apart politically. And my other neighbor, Walt, he was the first neighbor I met now on the other side of the fence. Was a bunch of his cows and that dog. When we first got there, Luna said, oh, boy, this is gonna be fun. And went over there and ran around with the cows. Right, right. Okay. So about an hour later, I got a knock on the door. And Lalt, who really became a friend, standing there with a shotgun, he just looked at me and he said, that dog looks pretty healthy, but it's not gonna be if it keeps doing that. So if we could just contain the enthusiasm, we'll be fine. And then he went away, and I spent hours and hours drinking beer with him after that. You either make friends or enemies with somebody like that.

Yeah. Was it a different dog?

It was Luna.

How did it get her to stop harassing the cows?

Well, we didn't entirely.

Only shot her a little bit.

Right. But he. We became friends, so he could not shoot my dog. And the other thing is, the payback was that in Sacramento, sometimes it does rain. And after a big rainstorm, those cows, and there were about 10 of them, they decided that my lawn was much better than the field they were in. And they broke down the fence and they walked all over my yard when it was wet. Oh, geez. And cows are heavy and they sink.

Tear a field up.

Yes, they will.

So you're all even now?

We're definitely even.

And Luna's dead, so.

Yeah. So a lot of people I talk to have a theater background, and particularly people whose theater work begins and their other community relationships, they kind of meld together.

Yeah. Yeah.

So what is it about, particularly community theater, where the roles are less formal and the stories are less settled sometimes and the skill set is all over the map.

Yeah.

What is it that that has brought to your being a mayor and running nonprofits and the like?

Well, that's a good question. I think it really comes down to the fact that as a community theater director, my first priority before even making a good piece of art was to work well with volunteers. And so that gives you a whole array of extremely useful skills, all the way from the interpersonal to logistical to reading their minds. And being treated with respect for your time and effort, regardless of your skill, is very important to people. And I don't think folks get enough of it. But I think that's what volunteers need in addition to feeling good about the work they're doing. I think the other thing it does, it's rare that there's the delay of a theater show. It opens on Friday night at 8 o'. Clock. It's not like, oh, we have software glitches. We'll start in 24 hours. It's like, no, the curtain goes up at 8:00'. Clock. So you have that discipline of a pretty inviolate time schedule, which I think can help you develop some muscles around again. Discipline and planning.

One of the things I've experienced in and around community theater is that like you said, no matter who you are, if you're doing sets, if you're doing costumes, if you're on stage, you are being taken seriously. I mean, once the roles are settled, and I don't just mean the cast, but just roles in the community of theater making that you have created. The thing that is supposed to happen at 8 o' clock will not happen if even some of the smallest roles are not fulfilled.

Right.

And that interdependence, that mutually assured success or destruction that would occur is I think, compelling. And once again, it's the stuff of community that we are hungry for these days, I think.

I agree. Makes me want to get out there and direct a Show real quick.

Part 4 Circles and Puppets so, Kathie, you've lived most of your life in a state that personifies a lot of what is going on around the country. So what's your take on the situation here in the us?

The country is polarized, but also I suspect there's a lot of people in the middle not quite knowing what to make of all this. But how, how can you create a space where everybody feels like. Well, everybody feels welcome.

Yeah. And the opposite of that sense of safety and belonging that you're talking about is I think, what Hannah Arendt talked about in the 1950s with her book the Origins of Totalitarianism, when she basically said that attraction to the totalitarian leader rises up when people in a society just become more lonely. Not just physically lonely, but the loneliness of souls in the modern world. Way back then with the onrush of industrialization and today as what's left of the natural world gives way to the onslaught of screens and AI and you know, the attention bandits. Maybe something as simple as a coming together that's safe and interesting and even fun. Kind of like lakefast or a community theater project. What do you think? How would that play in the red parts of Georgia?

So I don't really know. I mean, I've really buffered myself from most of that just to try to.

Focus on this book project, all encompassing. But you know, what's interesting is that book tells an amazing story, but it's also a social and a cultural and political document.

Yeah.

So one of the things I got from reading it is that it's a kind of a beautiful. I don't want to call it a debate, but it's certainly a rich conversation that doesn't have an easy end. You know what I mean? A conclusion that says, oh, what we've learned and now we know exactly how to do this. What do you take from it in terms of a 50 year old community of people who are trying to make sense of the world using the creative process?

Well, I think it has a lot of potential to provoke some conversation. I'm happy for people to learn about the history and some of the people that brought us here and some other things that we did and yada, yada, yada. But I think the contemporary conversation around continued white supremacy structures that are hiding in plain sight, or maybe not even hiding, the transphobia that's just taken such a cruel, unbelievably cruel turn, not to mention the assault on basic rights to have access to housing and food and health care. I mean, those are questions that are still very much in the air that we're breathing.

Well, that's for sure. And you know, reading the stories you've collected thus far, I thought about it Essos, kind of a story circle that when a story circle, I mean a good story circle has neighbors and strangers and there's a prompt and people tell their story and they don't take up too much time. But if there's a part of it that's a discipline, it is. Don't allow your brain to take over based on your fear of not having the perfect story. Listen to the story that comes before you and have it touch and connect what rises up for you so that the community is flowing, flow of community. And I just thought about the things that I read as having some of that quality.

Well, that's great. I like that.

So did you ever use a story circle as mayor?

Not. Not in its most formal sense. But I used it in the same way that I also used Liz Lerman's critical response process. Without saying, this is a process I'm using for story circles. It sort of boils down to everybody gets to speak and everybody must listen. So I did do a lot of open council meetings where people could talk to council. There is an unfortunate habit that our town and maybe others have developed where you have public comment, there's two minutes and you say your piece and then you sit down. But there's no dialogue with the council about what it is you just said. What, do they have questions about it? Are there places they would want to push back. Are there places where they just need more clarity? That dialogue doesn't happen in city council chambers for the most part. So instead of meeting twice a month in council chambers, turn up your echo real high for that. Put the work sessions in a different environment and change the layout, the architecture of the meeting space. So we were no longer sitting on the dais above people. We were sitting in a circle on a level playing field. So we were able to talk about the decisions that were facing the city council without this rigid construct designed, I think, to silence.

Yeah.

And depress. And I did that for four years, and people seem to dig it, but nobody has done it since. There's only been. We're only on our second mayor since I was mayor. So I. I keep threatening my wife, Alice, to run for. I. I'm a. I'm eligible for a second term. She says she has her bags packed.

I mean, as a student of. No, as. Not a student. As an amateur in the worlds of brain science and anthropology, I've just come to know that we're a species that has certain things that we do well and not so well and certain things that we need. We're pretty good at pointing out imperfections, not so good at keeping the perfect from smothering the good. And we really need clarity, be on that score to get pretty much anything done. We live in a world where I always think about the Martians sitting up and watching Earth tv, right? And they've been watching this show for quite a while, and there are lots of times when they're just shaking their head and they're saying, if these humans keep doing. Doing that, it's not going to go well. It's not just that it's bad. It's that it's not in their best interest to keep doing a thing like that. It's just going to backfire on them again. We've seen this many times before. This show is getting old. Could you guys just come up with a new plot?

I like this idea of the omniscient alien who understands us better than we understand ourselves.

Yeah, just like. Like our cats and dogs. I mean, they. They know the story right in their head all the time.

Yeah, that's who they are.

They're just Martians. Here. Spies. Well, Kathie, any books, movies that have just really knocked your socks off?

Oh, well, can I tell you about a piece of theater I saw that knocked my socks off?

Absolutely.

Oh, my God. I'm still really jazzed about this. So, Alice, my wife, and I go to Spoleto in Charleston, South Carolina, every year in the beginning of June for the Spoleto Festival. And it's. There's music and dance and theater and all kinds of things. And there's much to say about it. But what I will say is that the first thing we saw when we arrived was a puppet Company out of Chicago called Manual Cinema. Do you know them? Well, we bought our tickets late, so we were sitting on the very last row of a theater. And Manual Cinema's show called the Fourth Witch. And it's about a young woman who's adopted by Macbeth's three witches. And Macbeth is in it. And so they take the eastern traditional shadow puppets as just the beginning. So when you hear shadow puppets, there's a couple of styles. They have taken every type of shadow puppet in the world and invented some of their own. That in addition to the shadow puppets, they were then shadows of real actors interacting with the puppets. And then there were four overhead projectors for still images, and then there were front and rear projections. All of this interacting with the live cast. It was the most kinetic, not chaotic. It was just so amazing to watch them. I mean, the show itself was fantastic. We loved it so much. We spent another $150 to go back and see it again on the front row this time. And it was so, so good. I mean, the story was good, the craftsmanship was without par, and they had a three piece live ensemble with original music that. Oh, it was great. So I got very jazzed. That's Manual Cinema out of Chicago. It's so rare that we experience delight. And honestly, we could just use a little bit more of that. And it was. It was just delightful from beginning to end.

Yeah, being blown away and inspired can really help a lot along with a little joy. And I have to say, this conversation has certainly been a joy. Thank you, Kathie, so much for spending this time.

Okay. It's been a delight. Sure thing. Thank you, Bill. Talk to you later. Adios.

Well, that was fun. And here's what jumped out for me. First, it might just be that the best training for democracy is, I don't know, community theater. You know, learning to work with volunteers and juggle messy human dynamics and still open the show at 8pm Sharp is about as real world as it gets when it comes to building community and making change. And, you know, I do think that herding frogs is better than herding cats. Whether you're running a festival or city council, folks will always be hopping in different directions, but leaning into the chaos with humor and maybe some stagecraft can keep folks jumping in the same general direction. And finally, something I've always believed is that when you do stuff with your neighbors, those little acts of working together can set the stage and open the space for trust and connection. So grab your shovels. Thanks again listeners for listening and stay tuned next week when our Weather Report segment will be sharing new information on how the arts community can help advance the block bridge and build anti authoritarian movement that is rising up in communities across the country. Art is Change is a product of the center for the Study of Art and Community. Our theme and soundscapes spring forth from the head, heart and hand of the maestro Judy Munson. Our text editing is by Andre Nebbe. Our effects come from freesound.org and our our inspiration comes from the ever present spirit of UKE 235 So until next time, stay well, do good and spread the good word. Once again please know this episode has been 100% human.