PART 2

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 5, Episode 39 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Ben: But it focuses on, a pretty well known speech that Hamlet has that starts with to be or not to be as the question that is being posed. what I'm doing there, is it's a really simple but I think powerful and effective process. Of as you're going through this soliloquy as Hamlet talks about what he's experiencing, the choices he's trying to make, is we use the matrix as a way of mapping out the different aspects of his experience and what he's talking about.

[00:00:37] So he's naming things that are important to, to him. He's, he's talking about his desire to be, to be noble in some way, to, to find his way forward from this, very difficult situation that he's found himself in. But then he names A lot of, difficult thoughts and feelings to say the least that are coming up for, for him about how, the, the, the slings and arrows that he is experiencing and facing in his life.

[00:01:06] And again, again, we can just map those onto the matrix as we, as we go.

[00:01:11] Ross: Peace, Soopers. I'm continuing my chat with Dr. Ben Askew. He's an acting teacher, writer, and director.

[00:01:18] And if you haven't listened to part one yet, where we find out more about Ben and some pivotal moments in his life, you're missing a treat. I'd recommend you pause and go back and have a listen. in this episode you'll hear more about the ways Ben uses acceptance and commitment therapy, or ACT, in a theatrical environment.

[00:01:36] Breaking it down into three parts. People, Plays and Process. We also chat about his paper called Towards or Not Towards? Using the Act Matrix as a Psychological Tool in the Analysis and Interpretation of Dramatic Texts and Characters.

[00:01:53] How does Hamlet help us explore the human condition through the ACT lens? And, there's a cracking takeaway.[00:02:00]

[00:02:00] Now, for those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, we're an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun. Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioural science.

[00:02:30] Let's just scoot over to the news desk. And if you'd like to find out more about the Act in the Workplace Train the Trainer program I developed with Dr. Paul Flaxman, in partnership with Contextual Consulting, you'll find the link in the show notes. It's coming up soon, in April and May this year, And I've trained hundreds of adults using this approach and also hundreds of trainers too. So I'm excited to share it with you. And thanks to Joe Oliver at Contextual Consulting, there's a code for the course that gives you a 20 percent discount on the Act in the Workplace Trainer Trainer program. And that code is PSOOP20. Also, I am delighted to have been invited to deliver a workshop by the Association for Business Psychology on the 6th of February. The title of my presentation is How Behavioral Science Can Support the Cultivation of Authentic Leadership. You'll find the link in the show notes, And if you're a member of the A BP, it's free. Finally, there's a review in from Claire Stafford on Facebook. Claire said, Love this one, Ross. Really appreciated how Ben shared his pivotal moments and the importance of reflecting on those to make sense of our own journeys.

[00:03:41] Can't wait to hear about Act for Actors. My biggest frustration in working for a big global corporate is that work can feel very performative. I'm really interested in how Ben balances authenticity in an industry which is literally performative rather than metaphorically.

[00:03:57] And what we can all learn from that when our roles [00:04:00] demand a certain game face. Can't wait for parts two and three.

[00:04:04] Thanks so much to Claire and to everyone who listened, rated and reviewed. A final piece of hot news folks, I'm redesigning, hold on to your hats, I'm redesigning the PeopleSoup bookmarks. And Big G is dusting down the Global Distribution Center in readiness to send them out to folks who review the podcast.

[00:04:25] Watch this space, furthest he sent one of the previous bookmarks was Peru. Now, try if you can to contain your excitement, Because it's time to get a brew on, and have a listen to part 2 of my chat with Ben Askew.

[00:04:45] ross--he-him-_1_11-30-2023_110557: So, Ben, I'd really like to explore with you more Act for Acting, and perhaps also your research paper.

[00:04:53] Ben: hmm.

[00:04:54] ross--he-him-_1_11-30-2023_110557: So, in my notes here, it says that Act for Acting is an attempt to apply the principles of Act to the processes of Acting. And you developed three Act structures for the project.

[00:05:07] Ben: Yes,

[00:05:09] ross--he-him-_1_11-30-2023_110557: I wonder if you could Take us through those three.

[00:05:13] Ben: certainly. Yeah. So yes, this is what I like to, is this, the, this, the Act for Acting project and it has a three ACT structure is how I like to describe it. Because what what I discovered or seemed to be the, the, thing as I delved into act was that it seemed to, seemed to have potential applications to so many different aspects.

[00:05:32] of what I saw as the acting process and the process of actor training, and that it was sort of overwhelming, so I was trying to kind of break it down a little bit and make sense of it. And so, what I worked out is this three act structure, with this idea that act one, act one is about people, right?

[00:05:49] So it's about, in a sense the most direct application of, of ACT principles to the actor as a human being, right, of going, of going, how are the principles and [00:06:00] skills of psychological flexibility, how are those relevant to what the actor is trying to do, how they're trying to develop themselves in their work.

[00:06:10] So about how can we use the things around diffusion about present moment awareness about identifying your own values and taking committed action, all of those things to support the actor as a person in their development, they happen to be doing this very challenging thing called pursuing, you know, career in acting and trying to do that.

[00:06:29] how can the skills associated with psychological psychological flexibility, support them in doing that. And at the bigger picture side of that act, one people thing, if you look at it more at an organizational or institutional level, how could you sort of embed ways of working that would support the psychological flexibility of those that are involved in the company, in the rehearsal room, in training at this institution.

[00:06:56] So in simple terms, act one is about. Act as it applies to the person who is doing acting. Act two, I say, is about plays. By which I mean it's about then how do you use the ideas and the frameworks of act and the principles of behavioral psychology and contextual behavioral science and relational frame theory, all of the stuff that's underneath it, right?

[00:07:20] How do you bring that to bear on the way that we talk about and interpret and understand what goes on in plays and at the level of character, right? So how is it, as in, so the first bit's about the actor, the second bit is essentially about the character and, and action in drama of going, can we use these concepts to help us understand, characters and plays from a more contemporary perspective?

[00:07:47] And then act three. I say it's about process, right? So it's about how you bring those two things together in the actual process of rehearsing and performing. In other words, can act help [00:08:00] us to develop or help to inform the actual techniques of rehearsal that we use to embody our interpretation of character a play?

[00:08:13] So we've got the three act structure is act one people, act two plays, act three process. and then the big idea, the big hope is that all three, inform and enrich one another. And that's one of the things that I found really exciting about for me and for the people that I've been able to work with in this way of going the more we, Explore some of these skills and exercises for ourselves as just as people.

[00:08:42] Not only does that that is that useful in itself, but it helps us be able to spot and understand these processes when we see them happening in character. And similarly, the more that we Think and talk about character and the flexible and inflexible processes that we can see happening there that and I find particularly that really helps me and seems to help other people to actually reflect and spot things and notice stuff that's going on with me.

[00:09:11] That's going on in our selves, right? So the so that's something that I think is quite cool about it. That As we apply these principles to ourselves, we're also training ourselves to interpret character. And as we're, we're interpreting character, that's actually feeding back into our ways of understanding ourselves and our own behaviours. That's the, that's the principle anyway.

[00:09:35] ross--he-him-_1_11-30-2023_110557: Hmm. I love the way you've broken it down, because as you said, it sounds enormous, applying act for acting. I love the way it's broken down into that people, plays, and process. I'm particularly curious about plays and process.

[00:09:55] Ben: hmm.

[00:09:55] ross--he-him-_1_11-30-2023_110557: Because I think the people part is probably the most familiar to me, a human in the [00:10:00] workplace.

[00:10:00] Ben: Sure, yeah.

[00:10:01] ross--he-him-_1_11-30-2023_110557: But can you give me any examples of how it's been used or how you think it could be used in, in plays and process? Maybe using a character if you like.

[00:10:12] Ben: Well, you mentioned the, um, the paper, the article that's I did last year, that was about using the act matrix as a tool.

[00:10:25] ross--he-him-_1_11-30-2023_110557: Ben. I'm just going to tell the listeners what that paper is called. It's called Towards or Not Towards. Using the Act Matrix as a psychological tool in the analysis and interpretation of dramatic texts and characters. tell us a bit more about the paper, please.

[00:10:42] Ben: So that one is, it's about this thing, the ACT matrix, which I know you're very familiar with, and that's become really central to the way that I think about ACT. It's one of the tools that I use all the time. And what that paper is exploring is how you can take that tool, which we know we can use for ourselves, as a really useful way of thinking about and understanding.

[00:11:10] What's going on for us and what, what moves we want to make. as a tool to apply to a text or to a character. And in that paper, I apply it to Hamlet. Because why not? If you're going to start somewhere, why not start, why not start there? and particularly we, we, the paper doesn't try to, to explore either the full text of Hamlet or the full, the full sort of scope of the character.

[00:11:32] But it focuses on, a pretty well known speech that Hamlet has that starts with to be or not to be as the question that is being posed. what I'm doing there, is it's a really simple but I think powerful and effective process. Of as you're going through this soliloquy as Hamlet talks about what he's experiencing, the choices he's trying to make, is we use the matrix as a way of [00:12:00] mapping out the different aspects of his experience and what he's talking about.

[00:12:03] So he's naming things that are important to, to him. He's, he's talking about his desire to be, to be noble in some way, to, to find his way forward from this, very difficult situation that he's found himself in. But then he names A lot of, difficult thoughts and feelings to say the least that are coming up for, for him about how, the, the, the slings and arrows that he is experiencing and facing in his life.

[00:12:32] And again, again, we can just map those onto the matrix as we, as we go. And what emerges is he, is that he, he sets up this question. Right to be or not to be. Should I go on living or should I not go on living? And initially, if you're mapping that out on the matrix, we don't know from the starting point where those go, where those behaviors go, go in the matrix.

[00:12:53] In the matrix, what's, that's part of his question, right? What behaviors take me towards what I wanna move towards and what things take me away. and we sort of map out this, This stuck loop that he's got himself into where he's caught between. He's finding life so full of pain and suffering that it is unbearable for him.

[00:13:14] And so he is considering, maybe I just want to Stop doing that altogether, and maybe that's the best option for me now, is just to, as he says, take arms against the Sea of Troubles, and by opposing, end them, just bring this all to a stop. But as soon as that comes up for him, as soon as he considers that possibility, there's a rub, as Shakespeare describes it, of these dreams that might afflict him after death, this possibility that where he may go to, could be just even more suffering, even worse than where he finds himself now.

[00:13:50] And so his only way of trying to escape from that to avoid that is to delay to pause and therefore To keep going, but as soon as he keeps going, [00:14:00] he's back into how much he's suffering. As soon as he's back into how much he's suffering, he's wanting to get out, but he's too afraid to take that step.

[00:14:07] so what's, what I think is brilliant in using that tool and is really, exciting with a speech like that particularly. It's, I think it's exciting in both directions in the sense of going, when you map it out and you look at a kind of textbook discussion of what does it mean to be stuck, when we're talking about being stuck from an act point of view, and Hamlet is just, giving you a textbook on what stuckness is of being trapped between this, this cycle of experiential avoidance that doesn't work and that just leads you back into the place where you were Stuck, but now it's added even more, you know, yucky, difficult, feelings and experiences to it and trying again and going round and round and round and being unable at that point in the play, at least to find a clear enough connection to what his values really are to be the way out of this, this loop.

[00:14:58] and so I think it's fascinating that the Hamlet, you know, this play written, you know, it's 1600 ish. It's speaking to exactly what actors describe, describing now in life that people come across. but also from the actor's point of view, this tool that we can use to map out this, this famously, incredibly dense, philosophical, poetic text.

[00:15:22] And it, and it emerges when you look at it in something like The Matrix as a really relatable, not simple in the sense of being easy by any means, but It's a very simple human process that is going on there, and you see it so clearly, I think, when you map it out on the, you know, one thing that's so brilliant about The Matrix is how sort of clear and it gives you a visual way of conceptualizing what's going on.

[00:15:48] it takes this and goes, actually, this is really human, it's really relatable, and it makes sense. And so that, that's one instance of [00:16:00] going, how could you take A tool that has been designed for act for people in in real, real life and go how could we apply this to, to what is going on for this character and how could we use it to help us make sense of that for ourselves to interpret in a way that is human and empathic.

[00:16:18] and that feels like it's something we can relate to. So that's what that that paper is about.

[00:16:23] ross--he-him-_1_11-30-2023_110557: Blimey, this just sparks everything in me. Hearing you talk about Hamlet and unpack it like that. It's like, that's a really, for me, that's a really compelling way to present the skills from Acts in the Matrix, to make it something most people have in part of their experience.

[00:16:42] Ben: Mm hmm.

[00:16:43] ross--he-him-_1_11-30-2023_110557: That speech they have, maybe just the first few words, but maybe others, but to hear you unpack it like that, really lays out the the experience of being a human in a really accessible way.

[00:16:54] And my, part of my mind leaping ahead is thinking how could we use this as a way in for organizations to talk about characters like Hamlet or Lady Macbeth or Elsa from Frozen, to help people understand what's going on for them in an organizational context.

[00:17:13] Ben: But that's one of the things that I've become increasingly, fascinated by and excited by in looking at this work which is kind of as it should be, it kind of goes back to the thing of if, um, you know, if there's value in us looking at characters and their stories at all, presumably it's because it has some relevance to, to, you know, Life as we li, as we live it and as we know it.

[00:17:36] But I think it, it makes that connection very explicit. And in terms of me thinking about the kind of two-way street potentially of the, of, of the work I'm trying to do of going, I've started from a point of view where I'm absolutely going right, what can I, and we take from act to help with.

[00:17:54] With acting and, and, and how we interpret character and all of that. But starting to go, [00:18:00] oh, hang on. Maybe, maybe. there's stuff on the, this acting side side of it and this interpretation of character and the stuff that we do act becoming that, that bridge, that there's a, there's a way that I and, and we can.

[00:18:14] Contribute in the other direction, too, right? That active people that, as you say, are looking at wanting to, learn about psychological flexibility for real life settings that the exploration of character and stories and those narratives can be a really rich, exciting, compelling way of discovering what those processes are and learning to recognize them on why they are.

[00:18:39] Why they're important and how they impact on, on life.

[00:18:45] ross--he-him-_1_11-30-2023_110557: Those words of rich, exciting and compelling, I think I absolutely agree. I firmly believe that the arts have an enormous and fundamental and essential contribution to us as human beings understanding the, the human experience. And a lot of that human experience takes place in the workplace.

[00:19:09] Ben: Absolutely. That's, I mean, that's where people spend a lot of, you know, a big portion of, of life.

[00:19:15] ross--he-him-_1_11-30-2023_110557: But to make it as compelling as this is For me it's genius and exciting and taps into my value of getting creative. But before I go off on that ramble, I wonder, how's it being received Ben? How's, how's it going down in, in the acting and the theatre community?

[00:19:40] Ben: Well, um It really, I mean, there's been loads and loads of, um, really positive response to this, I think, and it's happened in different pockets at different times, and that's been, that's been one of the wonderful things. And it, and it, and is also one of the things that's becoming one of the challenges with where I've got to, with developing this, this work.

[00:19:59] [00:20:00] I think because I started with this, with, this group On Zoom in Covid times. I'm not really doing with any expectation beyond to do it. and we got from those actors that I was working with, and they were contributing to that at that beginning point, a huge amount of positive of seeing how those act skills and principles that we were talking about and trying to explore together kind of go, Oh, that really, That really speaks to like a lot of the challenges that we, that we have as actors in our work and in our workplaces, and people being very, excited about that and very receptive to it.

[00:20:40] And equally with, as we started to explore some of the character stuff that we're talking about of people going, Oh, these are really, great tools that can open stuff, stuff up in new, in new ways. So that's really exciting. Then. Through doing some of the things that are more formal, like the research, like the research article that opening up like this, like this conversation and conversation with people more in the act world and people see it like the possibilities there and that's really exciting and it's led to some interesting conversations and then I've had different points of doing workshops or trying to bring some of this Into the the teaching I'm doing in in drama schools and going, it feels like I can introduce different bits at different points, and there's been lots of really positive responses to that, too.

[00:21:33] I think where I'm at on one of the things I'm trying to sort of find the next steps the next towards towards moves to do. looking at the project as a as a whole, is that it, it, like it's become, like there's lots of really exciting fragments of how the project's developing in different, in different contexts and different bits of it have sort of touched different areas.

[00:21:55] And it's about going, how can I bring these different [00:22:00] elements together in a way that I think The sort of full potential of what it is, has the, the opportunity to, to be set before people. and for them to, to be able to respond to it as a, as a more of a holistic thing.

[00:22:14] if that makes some, some sense. So it's about going, how do we bring this to fruition within the fabric of a course in terms of training. How, as I'm exploring with some of the actors I've been working with over a long period through the Working Action Group how can we, rather than just exploring this idea with this bit of text here and then another opportunity exploring this thing over here, really work something and bring it to fruition as some form of production as a finished piece of work where we think we're really trying to explore how these different aspects of the of the projects can inform.

[00:22:57] the art that we're trying to make. and we're, we are taking steps. we're taking steps more slowly than one would dream of doing because, you know, life happens. but that's again, it's going back to our premise, right, of, finding the workable steps, even if they're not the Ideal ones, sorry, that was a, that was a convoluted a answer to say, I think, I've been really excited and encouraged by the responses to, to what we've tried to do so far.

[00:23:25] I guess I am really excited and don't feel I've quite yet. Being able to put the whole thing together in a way to, to, to really see how that operates.

[00:23:38] ross--he-him-_1_11-30-2023_110557: I love the idea you're reminding us of those small steps, Ben, because P. Supers, Ben got in touch with me kindly sharing his paper in January, and I, being a highly organized and responsive person, I think I responded in June. And I'm confident that our [00:24:00] conversations will continue, because I think, I think we both sense there's something here to explore further.

[00:24:07] Ben: Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:24:10] ross--he-him-_1_11-30-2023_110557: Ben, thank you so much for being so open and reflective and unpacking what you do. I wonder, do you have a, a takeaway for the, for the listeners, for the peace supers?

[00:24:22] Ben: Well, I think what I'd love for people to take away from the chat we've been having is about The potential that is there in this relationship between something like act and the arts. And obviously for me, that's that's a lot to do with drama and theater. But I think the arts more broadly in terms of where the thinking about where those connections are and for the people that are listening to think maybe about what I guess to go back to a book or a play or a film that fascinates them, that has meant something to them and to think using maybe that axe lens. What about myself? What about? The way I live my life and what about the way I relate to the people around me. Can I take, can I learn about, can I think differently about and find a new perspective on perhaps through my relationship with that piece of art?

[00:25:26] Um, that's what I would maybe offer to people as a, as a takeaway if that, if that works as, as one. Mm

[00:25:36] ross--he-him-_1_11-30-2023_110557: works for me and just a personal reflection, Ben. I find that when times are turbulent in my working life, I perhaps become more disconnected from the

[00:25:46] arts, disconnected from music I like or immersing myself in a piece of theater or poetry. And I find that a conscious decision to move [00:26:00] towards that can often give me a little bit of comfort or direction.

[00:26:04] Ben: Yeah, I, I, I completely Agree. And again, just thinking a lot of thinking allowed it maybe maybe takes us to a to a to an improved and enhanced, um, Takeaway perhaps of I think For most of us, many of us in our relationship to The arts. It can seem like a, a luxury item, you know, the way we treat it in our personal lives, the way we treat it as a society, that it's the first thing that can go, if we need to make space, then, then we, we cut down on the art, on the arts.

[00:26:37] And maybe a takeaway here or a thing to reflect on is, is how and why. They're so, they can be so essential to us and actually so central to reconnecting with our values, reconnecting with what it is that matters to us and encouraging us to reflect on ourselves and explore our own experience and not shut ourselves down to that and think that it doesn't matter because it does and that's Part of what the arts are there to do is to make us, help us, connect to that.

[00:27:12] ross--he-him-_1_11-30-2023_110557: Amen. Thank you. Ben, as with our other conversations, I've truly loved this chat. I found it so thought provoking and insightful and exciting. So thanks so much for your time, for coming on the show and

[00:27:26] talking to us.

[00:27:27] Ben: Thank you.

[00:27:28] Ross: That said, pay supers, part 2 of my chat with Ben in the bag. Ben's vision is truly pioneering, and next week, we have a bonus with Ben. Where we talk about Lady Macbeth, through the lens of the Act Matrix. You're not going to want to miss that one. Now, we need your help. You can support us and help us reach more people with this behavioral science.

[00:27:54] So

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[00:28:35] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now.

[00:28:44] ross--he-him-_1_11-30-2023_110557: We will start in a minute, but I actually started watching Macbeth.

[00:28:51] on Prime or Netflix, I think. And it was a beautifully shot, it's a beautifully shot production.

[00:28:57] Ben: Which one, which one is it? Who's, generally of the actors that are, that are

[00:29:02] ross--he-him-_1_11-30-2023_110557: Oh jeez, what's his name?

[00:29:04] Michael Fassbender.

[00:29:06] Ben: Oh, it's the Michael Fassbender one, yes, yes, yes, okay,

[00:29:11] ross--he-him-_1_11-30-2023_110557: I'm enjoying it, but I tell you what bothers me is everybody talks like this and it's really difficult to hear. Yeah,

[00:29:21] Ben: say, I've had a similar response, I think of going the, there's sort of, there's lots of nicely done, moody, atmospheric, uh, cinematography and these kind of things. Um,