Well, this is fun. This is phototherapy, which Audrey and I started doing like back in November. When was it back? Last fall? Last summer maybe?

I think it was summer, July.

It's sort of like a segment of the Photo Business Help podcast that has become kind of the heart of it because we realized how much fun it was to do it. And I think when this podcast started four years ago, it was a lot of me formally talking about stuff or teaching stuff and then interviewing people and then we always just audrey and I have met online for years now as sort of like a little mini mastermind type of thing. And we were like, this is so fun, we should just record this.

We're funny, people need to hear us.

And then we just started recording it and it's gone really well. So that's how this happened. And then when I met you onomy, I was like, oh, it'd be so fun to maybe start experimenting with having guests in the phototherapy world. So that's how we got to here. I hit the record button. So I should probably explain that I have been getting over a cough, some kind of vicious cough, so I sound a bit like a frog. And we'll all remember this time when we listen back. But let's just start like just maybe each of you say something about your business, obviously. I'm Natalie, I run Jennings Photo since 2010 and everybody knows that. So I'm going to move it along. How about you go anomy and we'll go from there?

Sure. My name is Annemie Tonken. I have been a photographer since 2010. I am based in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. I photograph families and I host the this Can't Be That Hard podcast, which where I talk about business stuff all the time. So we have similar similar track records in that way.

Audrey.

And I'm Audrey of Audrey Nicole Photography, based out of Minneapolis, Minnesota. I've been doing photography since high school, the typical story. And I focus mostly on weddings, small weddings, intimate weddings and families.

Yeah, so we get a lot of family stuff going on here, which I think for those listening that are interested in growing their family photo business, this will be a good one because we were trying to figure out kind of which direction we wanted to go. And I think as mentors over the years, we've all gotten the question a bajillion times, how do I get more clients? Which is a very big question and could go in a million directions. But I thought everyone really wants to know the answer to that. And if we can offer up any kind of advice at all in that area, it could be probably a good thing. So I thought we'd start there and we can just kind of chat about it and riff off each other and see what we come up with and then maybe at the end? I don't know, share a tip or something. A tip?

Well, tidbit.

Yeah, tidbit.

I feel like that topic is one where we would be hard pressed not to weave 1000 tips into the whole thing.

We'll probably be tipped out by the end. Is that a thing? Tipped out? Yeah. Audrey, you said you had thought of something that kind of sure, I got this.

Yes.

So I've mentioned this before and how to get new clients is not do this and you'll get new clients. It's an ongoing thing forever that you just weave into your business, like habits and stuff. But something that has worked super well for me over the last decade ish is connecting with others in the industry and just being a nice person. They call it networking, but networking sounds a little cold to me because I've genuinely just built a lot of friendships in the industry with other photographers and wedding vendors and whatnot. And this is still true today, that I would say half of my income, if not more, comes from other photographers, whether it's hired work to do for them, for their business, or I'm doing their family photo or they refer me to somebody. I just don't burn bridges, obviously, unless they absolutely need to be burned. But even then, we just don't have to talk again. More of a kind path, a Minnesotan.

Part in of ways.

Yeah, we'll talk, we'll talk later, but never.

For sure.

Yeah, I think that to me it's like, yeah, absolutely. With other photographers. But the same is true with being out in the world. I feel like a lot of my work as a family photographer, especially in the beginning, came from so I used to be a nurse. And so back in 2010, when I was still working as a nurse and I was growing my photography business, the nurses I worked with, the doctors that I worked with, the residents I'm at, the hospital I was working at was UNC. And so, of course, we had a lot of people who were kind of coming through for training and they were in that stage of life where they were having babies and their budget wasn't huge because they were just in their training years. Whatever. I have to this day, probably 50% of my clients are medical. Like, they work in the medical field. And it is at this point, it's some of the same people, but it's like generations of people from the hospital. And I stopped working at the hospital ten plus years ago, but they'll say, oh, I heard about you from Dr. So and So, who I worked with because they were still there. So being a good person out in the world, same thing with my kids that they went to pre K with. And now my kids are teenagers. Those families, it's like I got to know them when my business was new and they're still referring people to me.

So you put your camera down and you're like, I'm not working right now. But you're always networking, even when you're not using capital N. Networking in that word.

Yeah. And there's obviously the two sides of the network, and I love Audrey's brought that up before, but it's one of my favorite things, like, just don't forget about the people that you work with because they can shovel you a lot of cash, obviously. That's huge. And then yeah, building your network, especially if you're listening and you're like, I don't know where to start. Like, if you're working a job, like, start there, you know, start in that space. I wanted to add that I think one of the things that and I've been guilty of this as well, is there's a if I build it, they will come kind of mentality and major mistake.

No, they won't.

You have to have something to show people, obviously. You can't just be like, I'm a photographer, but I don't have anything to show you. But putting effort into the ask, I think is really valuable. When I was starting out, especially, I was constantly offering like, oh, I do this, oh, can I do this? Hey, would you mind if I took some photos of your XYZ, like business or kid? And that was an awesome way to build client relationships, maybe down the road, and my portfolio. So don't forget that it's not about just magnetically attracting people because you're so amazing, you kind of have to remind people that you are there and put yourself out there and ask as well.

Totally. Yeah.

And I'm going to take that a step further and say not just ask, can I make photos for you? But make an offer that I think we all get really hung up on. I need more clients, therefore I need to work on my marketing. But marketing and sales are like, they have to attach to one another. You have to build that relationship and then make the offer. And if the answer is no, then you continue building and then you make another offer. And then you make another offer. And that's the thing that I think it's hard. It's hard when you hear no's, it's hard when you're sitting there thinking, all I do is marketing all the time and your phone's not ringing or your email inbox is empty, but it really is. The world is a noisy place. People lead busy lives. And so it really is incumbent upon you to check your ego at the door and just make the offer with a smile on your face. Like, you don't have to be or whatever, but you want people to know all the time that door is open.

That's huge. I feel like that was sort of like a step one, how to get more clients. Like, here's the pool that's out there. And this is like sort of reminding you of all the different ways you can access that pool. Do you guys have any thoughts on what someone should have in place or like when, you know, especially on me, you're like, make sure you have an offer. You want to talk a little bit about that, whatever comes up. But I think that's kind of an important point to expand on.

Yeah, totally. Definitely. Having a way for them to get a hold of you and having it be easy. I've mentioned this before, but sometimes it's frustrating when I am looking at a business's website or profile and I have no idea where they're located. Like, are you near me? Are you in Texas? I don't know. So just having that basic information somewhere very easy to see and easy to get a hold of you and then responsiveness to any inquiries I think is huge. That's like your first opportunity of building trust is responding quickly. Being like, here I am, I would love to help you.

So important. I've said this so many times. We've talked about this a lot too. But if you are going to wait days to respond, then someone else that's responding right away is already when we talked about building your brand. You're building your brand from the minute you talk to someone at a party. It's not just that you have great photos and this piece of how you interact with them is often a really big decision maker for people. You might be thinking like, Photos, photos, I make great photos. Like, I can't wait to take them to this park and all these things, but they're like, oh, they haven't gotten back to me yet. It's been four days. Okay, I guess is that what it's going to be like? And I think that can really turn a lot of folks off.

Totally.

It is hilarious that we're talking about this right now because this morning, today is like a big recording day for me. I'm doing a bunch of recording and I recorded a podcast episode on this exact topic and I was talking about the friction that we create and I think about the arc of our business as two slip and slides. You guys know what slip and slides are, right?

Oh, yeah, for sure.

And so the first slip and slide is from the time that somebody comes across you wherever they find you to the point that you've booked them. And the second slip and slide is from that point to when they have photos hanging on the wall and they're writing a review on Google. And our job is to make that slip and slide perfectly, like steep and no tears in it.

Bump free cushioned, great comfy old lady.

Slip and slide on a nice lawn. Yeah, no sticks, no rocks. It's something that is just easy. Easy, like from the time they find you to the point that hopefully they hire you, you want to make it really easy and then you want to make it as easy as possible from that point to the end. And then when you make it easy in that second part, you want to talk about how easy it is in the first part because that's going to add to the slipperiness of that first part. But if you have a rough slip and slide in that first part in your hiring part, I'm still just thinking.

About people spinning down the hill like grass stains.

Really helpful.

No, that's perfect.

Am I making it hard? But if you do make that first part hard, I don't care how amazing the photos are at the end, they're going to be like, well, if this is what this feels like, I'm sure that's what the rest of it's going to feel like.

Yeah.

All people have to go on is what you show them. And so you're absolutely right. You have to make it the second somebody shows a little interest, it's like, how can I respond to them? How can I make myself appear build that trust as someone who's going to take care of them? Because that's what people want.

Absolutely. Do you guys find that it's tough to get people on the phone, or is that a huge part of your must do workflow or where is everyone on phone stuff? I find for myself, it's like a must do for my branding clients because there's so much to cover. But I think it's pretty 50 50 with my family clients. Sometimes they just seem busy and they don't feel like they need any more information, which means that I've done my job. But I'm just curious about that piece of it. Piece of the slip and slide.

I mostly just connect with people on the phone for weddings, and it's a requirement to even book with me. We have to just connect that way to make sure we both fit for each other. Anomy, you might have more to say on connecting with families on the phone. Is that part of your process?

It is part of my process, and I feel like I've gotten a fair amount of pushback from photographers recently. In particular about like, I don't want to get on the phone. My clients don't like to get on the phone, and I think that there are workarounds for it. But I think I'm still a big advocate of the phone for anyone who's even remotely willing to entertain that concept. Because I think that if you can get someone on the phone, your likelihood of booking with them goes way up because you're able to. I mean, there's like so many things that happen in such a short period of time, like a 15 minutes phone call. They can feel like they know you. They can get all their questions answered. You can even put a date on the calendar. Whereas in order to do all of those things via email or back and forth in an Instagram DM, it takes just hundreds of back and forth, hoping that they stay on the line for all that is a tough thing.

There's a little pushback section that you brought up that I wanted to bring up is the DM thing versus email. Because I know some people will say, well, that's where everyone is, and that's where you should just do the conversation. And I lose my mind if I don't bring people into my email box. I'm going to use the slip and slide for the whole thing the rest of my life. But that is such a huge hit, a bump flying off the slip and slide thing for me if I have to start managing my DMs to that degree. So I'm just curious if you guys have that same feeling where it's like you want to bring people into some kind of funnel or space or like email thread.

Yeah, somebody reaches out via DM, I'm like, great, here's my email, exact same.

Yeah, okay. Yeah. And I bring that up because I think especially if you're newer to this, I think staying organized when you're not that busy might not feel that urgent. But when you hit a period of time where you might be really busy or where you have someone that's coming back to you a year later that is asking questions about maybe what they ordered last year or something I mean, there's just there's I could think of a million reasons why having everything in one place is wildly useful. But I would say for me personally, if you can get people to an email thread that you can forever search going back years and years, it's incredibly helpful because finding stuff in DMs or texts is a nightmare if you're trying to go back and piece together a conversation you've had with somebody.

Yeah.

And even if you're not busy yet, you hopefully will be someday. And it's kind of good to just set that habit from the beginning of I just do it all on my email.

Yeah.

It is way easier to stay organized and also to turn business on and off. Easier.

Very true. When it comes to stuff like this, like phone calls and DMs and all that, I worry sometimes that I'm like the old man shaking my cane at the sky and being like, back in my day, this is how he too. But these are points that I'll stand by these, because every time I check myself on these particular things, there's a really clear reason, and one of the sort of secret reasons for something like holding the line and saying, okay, I need you to come over to my email from DMs. I think that let's say that you're a new photographer and you barely get any inquiries as it is, and somebody inquires via DM and you say, great, here's my email address. Can you shoot me an email or send me your email address and however you want to manage that. And then they don't write back and you're like, it's because I asked them to do this thing. And I just want to point out that when you start a relationship with a new potential client by this is not a hard ask, like, open a different tab in your browser and send me a five second email. If they're not able and willing to clear that hurdle, they're not a very serious inquiry to begin with. You probably didn't lose any money. It just snuffed out the hope sooner rather than later, which is painful, but still. And then also, if they do come over to your email, you have started the relationship by saying, I have a business that I run a certain way and I'm here to serve you, but the best way that I can serve you is by doing it my way. Again, this is like subtext. You don't say that out loud, but you are essentially saying, like, I'm a professional and that speaks volumes.

I think so too. I think that gets into a new topic, which we can jump into. But this idea of, like, this is how I do it and I don't make a million exceptions for a million different people is really important because, again, it's really tough when you're really busy if you're doing a bunch of different things. But it also you're in charge, you're the professional, and setting that bar, I think, is I think, right away is super important. And it doesn't mean that you have to be like, a jerk about it. Like in the DM, you could have a couple back and forth like, yeah, I do that kind of thing. It usually takes this long. If you want to talk more about it. You don't just have to be like, thanks, send me an email. It doesn't have to be this cold exchange, but for me personally, I like to keep the juicy, sort of important, detailed stuff in my email, so if I've quoted them something or said something about I just want to be able to look back on what I've said and not have to go on like an egg hunt for it. But you don't have to be like, cold about it.

Right. You're a person, you're not a robot.

Yeah. It's setting boundaries in your business, which ultimately keeps you healthy and able to provide a better service. When I have DMs and texts that I'm trying to keep track of, somebody's going to get forgotten and then I'm not doing my job well, so I always start off or you can even ask them for their email, so then it's not up to them to email you. You could be the one reaching out that might be a little safer. Yeah, you made a good point on me about if they don't decide to follow up through email, then they're probably not that serious anyways.

Yeah.

So on the note of when you budge for people and Audrey and I have talked about this, I certainly have my very oldest first clients in kind of this special bucket of like we're going to do the thing we've always done. This is what it costs. I've raised the prices on them a bit over the years, but they're just not getting funneled into all my new stuff unless they're interested in it. Sometimes I'll say like, hey, I'm doing it this way now, do you want to check it out? But sometimes it's been twelve years and they are the ones that started my business. So to make an exception for them is like a no brainer for me. And it feels right. But I recently had a brand new client inquire about a family photo session. She seemed really, really excited about it. I gave her my pricing and she said she'd come back to me after she chatted with the family and she wanted to bargain. She said, well, what about instead of 90 minutes and 30 images or whatever was included, we do it for $200 less, but 2 hours. And it was a strange kind of ask. It seemed valuable to her.

Wait, she wanted more time and wanted to pay less. That was her bargain.

She wanted more time and wanted to pay less. So yeah, I wish everyone could see out of me's face.

I'm like processing. I'm starting to rock a little bit healing in my chest.

Well, and what's tough, we're getting close to two K here for this family session before products and stuff like this is a good 2 hours of my time or whatever it would be. But I felt so annoyed by that. Again, I thought of this because of the whole DM thing. Like if they're not willing to, whatever. But sometimes it's a struggle to know when to bend and compromise. And I said I'd be happy to offer you more photos instead of the album that's included, if that's not what's interesting to you. But I've worked this out over a long time and this is what I need to charge. I can't budge on the price. And I haven't heard back from her, even though we went back and forth for quite a while and she was very excited. So I'm curious what just your thoughts are in general, besides the rocking and the skeptical phases.

It's funny that you brought this up because I was kind of thinking about this this morning too, of the phases of photography. When you first start out, you will say yes to anything and everything and then I think you kind of hit this phase of burnout and a little bit of resentment because you failed to set boundaries and you said yes too much. And then I think the pendulum swings a little bit to where people are really uptight about the rules and not being flexible at all and almost a little in like not a nice way. And then now I feel like I'm back to where I'm just, okay, making some exceptions here and there, but it really has to come down to, like, it feels aligned with you. You're still giving them a good service and what you can give them. You're not setting a precedent that can bite you in the butt later on. And the value, I think, has to be kind of a partnership. Like, you're not just giving them value, you're also getting value from it somehow.

Yeah, that's a good point.

Yeah, I totally hear you on the pendulum swing thing, and I see that as well. I have experienced that full range in my own business. I got super rigid about things when several years ago, I got divorced and was like, everything has to be like, exactly this or everything's going to fail. Since then, the happy, medium place that I have found is that I started a membership model in my portrait business where once I've worked with someone, if I like working with them and they seem like a good family client, I invite them into this membership. There are a bunch of perks to the membership. They pay, like, basically their credit card gets charged every month, and then they just have a session with me every year and I spoil my members to death. I take all of my big hearted artist creative energy and I make them Christmas presents. And it's like I get to do all of those kinds of little things because those clients are gold for me. Right. First of all, I love them because I know that before I invite them, so it's all people I love working with. I get to know them over time, which as a family photographer is really one of the most gratifying parts of my job, is like watching a kid go from a newborn to a Kindergartner and beyond. And then also it's money that comes in month after month, and I know that it's there. So for all of those reasons, those are like, I'm going to do whatever if that person needs to reschedule four times, no problem, because I already know that they're not there to take advantage of me. Which makes it so much easier when I do have a new inquiry who's like, well, I'd like that, but for half the price. And I'm like, okay, great.

Good luck finding it. I'll talk to you later. But I remember that sense of like, but if I don't book this client, then I don't have anything going on. And it's hard. That's the piece of it that's mindset work on your side. It is one of those things that I feel like you can teach somebody as much as you want, but they kind of have to make that leap for themselves.

You're right. It does kind of come down to this. It is more of an intuitive call, like a gut feeling in a way, because, for example, in what I brought up it was, I think, like 45 minutes of extra time, but they wanted $200 less. It felt really icky because it was like you just lowered the price. Only $200. Like, you're willing to pay let's just call it $1,500, but you don't want to pay $1,700. And it just felt like me ten years ago would have been like, sure, whatever. But I just felt instantly like the hit that I got when I read the email was kind of insulted, and that's not where I want to start off. So that was kind of where I made that call from, I think. And I guess I just wanted to bring that up because it is a really tricky space to be in. I mean, there is part of why I like bringing people into my email is because I'm always negotiating with people and giving them some kind of idea of what we could do. And I can't remember all those conversations. So I think that there's always room to move around. And like you said, if people need to reschedule a bunch, there are people on my heart list that I'm like. You can do whatever you want, because I know that you're not here to take advantage of me.

But when someone's like, haggling $200 in an already, like, high ticket offer for what it is, it felt kind of poopy. I don't know, would that feel poopy to you? Or would you just be like, okay, whatever. I guess 200 is such a tricky one.

Oh, no. If she had come to you and said, our max budget is 1500, is there any way we could do half the time?

There you go.

That's a whole different conversation.

Absolutely. Yes.

Then it's respecting that you also have a budget and a limit and kind of like, what can you give me for this? Rather than, I want you to give me for this? It's just such different wording, but it makes such a huge difference, and it.

Changes the nature again, kind of going back to that, like, hey, I need you to come from DMs into email. It sets the tone for who you are in the relationship. Are you the guide who's, like, guiding someone through your process? Or are you, like, their monkey dance?

Yeah, no, I'm glad we talked about that because just that simple shift, like, had that person come to me and said, you know what? Our budget is really tight. We really would love this package, but is there any way we could just do half an hour instead of an hour or whatever? I don't know. That feels so much better than big time, this weird couple hundred dollars. Hagley. I don't know. So I'm bringing that up because I think it's tricky even for me. I'm like, what would you have done?

I had a similar thing this last summer. It was a past client I'd done a wedding for, and they wanted a mini session. At their home, which is not something I would like a one off mini session at their home. And I just said that's what I can do is this. And the response was, well, we have another photographer who would be willing to do it. Let me know what you think. And I was like, I hope you have a great experience with them. Again, I felt like disrespected kind of and like kind of like bullied.

Yeah.

And yeah, a little manipulative. And I think she would have just haggled anybody. I mean, I think that was just part of her process, was to try and get the best value and that's fine. I don't have to play that game either.

And I don't think that there's anything I try really hard not to assign motive to people. I mean, there are cultures that are very haggle driven, right? And so it's way outside my comfort zone. If I show up into the soups of Morocco and everybody there is like, here's the price. And then you're like, well, no, I'm going to do this, and they expect that. That's like part of the back. So I try not to assume that it's like somebody devaluing my work or whatever, but at the same time, I'm the boss of what I do in response to that. That's the only part of that that I can control. And I do think that if you set the tone at the beginning with, sure, my prices are negotiable, sure, my time is negotiable, without making sure that it's a balanced affair, then you're setting yourself up for just a really big pain in a painful client experience. I wanted to go back and say, Natalie, you were saying if somebody had come to you and said, our maximum budget is 1500, but we just love your work so much and so would we be able to figure out something for that? You could have either said yes, you could have said yes, but I can't do it on a Saturday, it has to be a Thursday or whatever, and made it shorter. And what's funny about that is that's the opposite problem, right? Or not? It's not a problem, it's the opposite. Instead of somebody who is kind of trying to railroad you, that's somebody who values you.

And even though it's a stretch for them or whatever. So I have had some of my very best clients end up being those for anybody listening who finds themselves in these situations and has a hard time dealing with it, just look at there's more than just money in the grand scheme of an offer. So the amount of time, the location, the duration, like all of that stuff can be part of that negotiation process. If it's someone that you want to.

Work with, yeah, I think that's a really important thing to consider and it can be just such a subtle shift, but it really also remembering that a lot of times people aren't trying to be malicious. I really liked this person. She seemed really excited. And then it got kind of weird and I was like, okay, but you get a feeling from people. And then for me, it was a feeling, I think first and foremost of a little disappointment. Like? Oh, I thought it was clear that I sent you all this stuff and you had looked at the packages and to have someone I haven't had someone in a long time try to shave money off of those. Packages because they're already people that are into it are just like, yes, okay, so that was an interesting place to be in, but this is going really quickly, and we're already, like, half an hour in. But I thought, I don't know, we can jump into any sort of random thing that we want to offer people. Or I was thinking back, circling back to how to get more clients. Is there anything that is top of mind, like combining all of our experience that you would tell someone not to do? We've kind of covered a few things, but if you're just like, other than build it and think that they're going to come, is there anything that you've seen with students or experienced yourself or whatever that just comes to mind that might be a good place to wrap up this topic?

For me, I think not being too rigid, like, it's kind of going back to the pendulum swinging there's like this. When you first start out, you want to say yes to everything to kind of figure out what you'd even like to do and what you're good at. But also not being too rigid, not getting too stuck on the rules, trying some different things, but finding a way to make it work for you too. You can have boundaries and be flexible. Yeah. I think in some newer photographers that I've mentored in the past, I've seen people getting stuck on, well, I don't want to do that because of this, and I don't want to say yes to them because of this. And I think figuring out a way to work with someone that also sticks to your boundaries is don't just keep the door closed. Figure out if there's a way to make it work.

Yeah. Metaphors are like my one and only way to think about things.

Back to the slipping.

Yeah.

Now I'm going to bring up a bicycle. I do feel like learning how to run a business is like riding a bike. When you watch somebody who's new to bicycles try and ride a bike, they're just overcompensating everywhere. Right. It's like, oh, I have to be really boundaried and have these really strict things, and they fall over this way, and then they get all I did that in reverse order, but like super loosey goosey and anybody can anything of me and they fall over the other way. Once you learn how to ride the bike. It really is all about like the road is uneven and you're having to react. There's not just one set of rules. It is like, here's the basic thing, and then you have to find your balance. So I think that what you were saying, Audrey, is just absolutely dead on. The thing I was going to say about my experience with marketing is when I see photographers really flailing with marketing, it typically has to do with hopping from one strategy to another strategy to another strategy. I would say I would rather see you take ten steps in one direction than one step in ten directions. Because even though there is a certain amount of like, you have to see what works. You also have to give those efforts time, because they don't marketing is not especially with something where you're charging several hundred or even four plus figures. It doesn't take root instantly.

You have to give it a chance to work and build those relationships. So if you're all in on email marketing, or if you're all in on SEO or whatever the case may be, give that time to work before you declare it a failed effort and then move on to the next thing.

I really like that the bicycle analogy is awesome. I'm just slipping slides and people learning how to ride bikes.

Apparently I'm real ready for summertime.

But they're both like, very hilarious and yet effective metaphors. I always tell people, too, don't try and decorate your house before you've put up the sheet rock. People are like, I'm going to get the best fonts and logos and everything's going to be so beautiful, and then I'm going to do and it's exciting as creative people to want to make everything beautiful and branded and pretty. And that is important. There's a consistency. There like, if you walk into a restaurant and it's like a mess and there's no who bought that lamp? And there's no consistency. You're not as drawn in as if it's like a beautifully styled kind of space, and there's like vines and plants and you can see where my sensibilities go, but lots of plants. New trend that I won't complain about.

That house doesn't get built in a day. And that is frustrating. We all want it. The vision is there, but it takes time.

Yeah, the other favorite I have, and then we can cut the metaphors, but it's like planting a tree. You need it to take root and grow a little, and then as it branches out, you get cool stuff like fruit or flowers or leaves or whatever, but it takes like a minute to get there. And you really do have to be, I think, going back to what you said on me about marketing. And rather than taking one step in ten directions, like taking ten and one, I used to say it at the end of every episode of the show, is consistency is key. So if it's SEO or if it's email market, whatever it is, I find that it's super helpful to just hold yourself accountable to a schedule and stick to that and start with like, okay, I'm going to do this every Monday and Friday for a month. See how that feels. Okay, I'm going to do it for the rest of the order. Okay, I'm going to do it for the rest of the year, or whatever. I mean, with this podcast, I started out doing that. I was like, I'm going to do it for a year. I'm going to do it on Tuesdays and Thursdays. And that was because also having a feel for what amount of space you can see progress in because this is a slow burn. So saying, okay, I'm going to do it for two weeks. Well, you might not see anything happen in two weeks. So keeping in mind whatever goal you have, that it needs a little room to establish itself.

So giving yourself maybe like six months might be more effective, I guess. Or you might see more happen in that time with consistency than you would in like a really tiny window. But I think the consistency is important.

And the other nice piece to consistency is that it doesn't just have time to take root, it also has time to get easier. Because, for instance, with the podcast, in the beginning, that feels like you are basically building a skyscraper every single episode that you're trying to put out. It's so much work. And then after six months or a year, you're into a much better rhythm of like, this is how the process works. And it's faster, it's easier. So marketing is the same. It does feel like this herculean task when you're starting out with a new marketing technique or tactic or whatever. It gets easier.

Yeah, it does.

It's a great point, for sure.

Well, anything else anyone wants to add? I know we've all got busy schedules and I mean, I feel like we could talk about stuff forever, but seriously?

Yeah, like I had a therapy session. I love it.

I know. Good. Welcome to therapy.

Welcome to phototherapy. I sound so funny to myself.

That's funny.

You sound wonderful.

Thank you. Yeah, well, one thing I generally ask guests to do, but maybe we can all play, is what is like one piece of advice, one quote, one thing you do, one sort of motivating little nugget that you could offer folks before we sign off. I can go first.

Yeah.

And now I'm like, there's a quote from that book by Mark Manson the subtle art of not giving a fuck. And it's Audrey, we've talked about this so many times and now I'm going to mess it up because it's a confusing quote to say, action isn't just the effect of motivation, but it is also the cause of it. So I used to have it as a post it and it fell or something, it's not there anymore. I have to think of it myself. But this idea that we have to be creatively inspired in everything we do in order if you're feeling a little low and you're feeling a little overwhelmed, which most people at the beginning, we all feel that, but especially if you're trying to build a business, sometimes just putting on the running shoes and going out for a walk around the block will get you more excited to go for a walk tomorrow and the next day than, like, waiting for some kind of, like, arrow to hit you. Like, oh, running sounds wonderful today. Same with work sometimes. I mean, I have a lot of different projects I do, and often I have to sit down and start, just say, okay, I'm going to do ten minutes of this new blogging technique, or something that I've just been putting off. Putting off. But it's like once I sit down and I start doing it, I remember why I wanted to do it. I'm like, oh, this is kind of interesting. Oh, yeah, okay, this is fun. But the motivation comes from the action sometimes, rather than just like, sitting around waiting for the motivation to cause you to act. That one kind of changed my life. So that's absolutely true, using that one.

Okay, I'll go.

Okay.

I'm just thinking about what you just said before that about the consistency is key. And I've said this before, that not the only reason, but the reason I am where I am today in my photo career is because I just didn't stop and I just kept going. Even when things are hard. There's been seasons where I've been not as pushing as hard, seasons where I've pushed really hard, but overall, as I just keep going. And the consistency is what has gotten me to where I am. Just putting one step in front of the other. And sometimes you don't know what the step is, so just keep trying. And then the path sometimes just clears as you're going along. Which probably is similar to the motivation comes from action.

Totally. It's related because sometimes you're going to not feel like doing it, and if you wait until you feel like doing it, you're going to wait probably. I don't know. For me, it's usually like a cycle of a season or so, a few months, and then I'm like, okay, I'm ready again. But that really throws you off track if you're trying to build on something.

That and then also don't underestimate the value of taking care of your human body and how it really helps your business. I think we get super caught up in wanting to have a good business and be successful and forget that we're animals and not machines and like, getting good sleep and drinking water and just taking care of yourself, eating snacks throughout the day.

Men for snacks. Yeah. It's funny. I was listening to those two before and I was like, this is what I think people, anyone who knows me would expect me to be like, motivation comes from action and consistency. 1ft in front of the other systems. Automation. I think people have this very wrong expectation of me that I don't sleep or something. And what I was going to say as kind of a foil to those two things, but also these are not mutually exclusive, is that I think it's an Anne Lamot quote about everything will work. Most everything will work if you unplug it for a couple of minutes. Even you or something like that. And I say this as I am on the brink of going on vacation, but I do think that when you are really feeling stuck and stymied and maybe I could tie this into your recommendation for taking care of your physical body. I think that one of the best things that you could do for yourself is like stand up, walk away from your desk, maybe do something like go for a walk without your headphones or anything or your phone and just let your mind wander. Try not to overthink because there is value to keeping at it. Keeping at it. But it's also important to listen to when your body is like, no, you need to step away from this for a minute.

Yeah, huge.

I just had a moment like that last week. I was staring at my computer for like three days, just like not able to make progress on what I was working on. And I phoned in a friend. I'm like, can we talk? I need to get out of my head. I need to just say things out loud. And I felt so much better after that. Just like getting away from my computer.

Yeah, we all have those places and spaces too, where at least most of us, I think, where we let down some kind of barrier and the ideas come. Like in the shower right before you fall asleep, like walking without a podcast in your ear. So whatever that is for you. I think that's huge. I get through a lot of stuck periods. Sometimes you have to do it for a few days. Remember, this isn't just like a magic, like, I'm going for a walk, but sometimes it's a process of like, okay, it's still not coming, it's still not ready. Okay, we've gone a little over, but it's been great and we are all still alive. If you have an offer or anything that you want to direct people to, please say it now. I'll start with Audrey and then we'll put it in the show notes as well.

Yeah, audrey, Nicole, photography on all the platforms. Instagram. Email or Website? Facebook. I am getting my calendar filled with family sessions for the rest of the year. And that's where you can find me.

Yeah, sure. I have a new thing over at this Can't Be that Hard, that I'm excited to share about, which is called this Can't Be That Hard University, which is my free hub with all of my content that I've built over the past few years. And you sign up by filling out this little admissions assessment, which gives you a custom syllabus for whatever your particular issues are. And the lessons are in there. So you can go to thiscampbethard. ComFree to sign up.

Yeah.

It was a fun project to put together. I was like, I don't know. You probably know this. Like, over years of a podcast, there's so much you create a lot of resources, but then after a while, unless somebody's going back and listening 100 episodes ago, that whole thing is just kind of dead. So I was like, no, I'm going to revive it all. So it's fun.

Nice. Awesome. Cool. Well and you can find everything. Photo business help. Photo business help. One can see me do that. I realize we're on video.

We can do it.

Shucks. Thank you both for doing this. This is a lot of fun. I hope we can do it again. Thank you and Natalie, and congratulations on the upcoming vacation festivities.

Thank you.

Yeah. Okay, bye.