] Dr. Jim: Thanks for joining us today. This is your friendly neighborhood talent strategy nerd, Dr. Jim. When we think about building a 21st century school in a 21st century workforce, What thoughts come to mind? I'm sure many of us lean into our full futurist mindset when we think about that as a concept as innovative and futuristic as those thoughts might be.

One of the core things that we should be thinking about is how to AI proof our education and workforce so we remain relevant into the future. If we pull that off, what does it look like at the district level when it comes to the district level, when it comes to classwork, when it comes to instruction, these are all considerations that we need to take into account as we're planning the workforce and the classroom of the future.

That's what we're going to tackle today in today's conversation.

We have Dr. Donna Desiato, superintendent of the East Syracuse, Manoa Central School District joining us. Donna has served as the superintendent of the school district since 2005, and she's led [00:01:00] transformative efforts.

In education and workforce development, she's had extensive experience at the district and state level leadership and has excelled in creating collaborative partnerships, strategic planning and systemic change in education. Donna's initiatives include developing. Innovative stem pathways in collaboration with top institutions like SUNY ESF, Syracuse University and Siemens.

Under her leadership, ESM launched the Spartan Academy, an early college high school and pioneered one of New York's first aviation career and technical education pathways. She's been recognized nationally for her work. Dr. Desiato's vision for education extends to preparing students for a rapidly evolving global workforce and her leadership has earned her a seat on the Micron community engagement community. She holds a doctorate in educational leadership from Syracuse university and is the president elect of the NYS council of school superintendents.

Donna. Welcome to the show.

[00:01:58] Dr. Donna DeSiato: Great to be here.

[00:01:59] Dr. Jim: Yeah, [00:02:00] I'm looking forward to this conversation and I think it's going to be a really fun discussion, especially when we look at the workforce for tomorrow and the classroom of tomorrow. But I think before we dive into the meat and potatoes of the discussion, it's going to be important for our listeners to know a little bit more about you.

And I think a good place for us to start would be for you to share with us some of those Key moments in your career that helped shaped you as a leader and even as an innovator within the space of education.

[00:02:32] Dr. Donna DeSiato: Certainly, I, when I think about few of the major impacts in my career, one was at a time when I was working actually as an elementary school principal, and we were selected to be a research and demonstration school for New York State, and I met a researcher out of Berkeley. That Dr.

Larry Lowry and his work on understanding brain research and how it related to learning truly impacted [00:03:00] my understanding of what we would need to do and along that particular area it made me more interested in certainly the work of Dewey, the work of Hattie and these are educational researchers that have for very seriously helped us to understand that curiosity, student engagement student hands on mind on types of learning need to be an important part of what we're doing.

The other part that was also important to me was that while the work of those researchers that I just mentioned, talk about what students know and are able to do, and that's what the learning standards speak to what do students know. And what are they able to do? We, for the most part in education, have delivered an educational system on what students know.

And as a result, we have measures that measure what students know, but aren't measures that necessarily measure what students are able to do. Applying their learning to solving a [00:04:00] problem.

[00:04:00] Dr. Jim: I think one of the things that I'm interested in understanding a little bit better is when you talk about bridging the gap between what students know and what they're able to do. How does that become real in a classroom? And what were the steps that you took to bring that into the classroom level so that you're driving better learning and execution outcomes?

[00:04:20] Dr. Donna DeSiato: well, one of the ways in which we approach that certainly at all levels, elementary, middle and high school was to shift to a more inquiry based type of learning where students curiosity was driving their need to know and that curiosity was going to be giving them opportunities to be learning from real life application, real life experiences.

In addition, we worked with John Burrell. John Burrell was a major researcher in inquiry based learning. We brought him in to do professional learning with our teachers.

We invested with the Buck Institute on project based learning. In addition to that, we [00:05:00] became really, Learning leaders and learning teachers with regard to what strategies would we need to invest in and integrate so that our learning became more experiential rather than a sit and get type of model. That provided a framework and a foundation. From there, I really think it's important to note that our educators took this and they truly developed this type of, not only hands on, mind on, but this kind of student engagement in learning at all levels. And that began to shift how we began to look at learning and how we would measure learning.

[00:05:39] Dr. Jim: So it's interesting that you're describing some of the things that you brought into the classroom, and when I think about it, it didn't exist when I was going through school. It was basically more aligned towards rote memorization and that sort of stuff in terms of how education was delivered.

And I would imagine that you might have gotten some resistance from parents. In the [00:06:00] community where they might have felt that this isn't really focused enough on the basics or foundational elements of what education quote unquote should be. So if you encountered that resistance, how did you navigate the challenge of parents chiming in on things that they may not be familiar with?

[00:06:19] Dr. Donna DeSiato: It's interesting, Jim, because we did initially have some of that, and particularly from parents who thought that the rigor is about getting the right answers on the test, or that the rigor is about more memorization. As in particularly our middle school really took the lead, and one of our middle school teams, as they began to really integrate this work the students became excited. amazingly engaged in the learning and their learning was resulting in their proficiencies and their accomplishments. So they began to tell the story. One, I would have parents stop me and say, Dr. Desiato, I don't know what you're doing [00:07:00] in my middle school child's classroom. I used to think I had to get a major gong to get them out of bed.

Now they can't wait to get to school to solve that problem, to be on that team, to be part of A hands on, mind on type of experience. Our middle school attendance in that team was consistently in the mid to high 90s. Students, we had one week in which students were never absent. That's almost unheard of in a middle school.

And what it said to us and what it said to their parents, and to the parents of students who were not on that team, is what's happening there. What is it that's making students so engaged in their learning? And from there, we began to really explore and get more in depth with the type of learning and the professional learning we would need to invest in to make this more systemic. Can't hear you.

[00:07:53] Dr. Jim: I really like how you brought in the impact element of it. That what, the attendance was an outcome of [00:08:00] student engagement. And because you're using experiential learning that engages students. In a different way. Whereas, our experiences are probably pretty similar where sometimes there were certain classes that were just completely boring and it was a struggle to get in there.

But if you're embedding experiential learning into it and project based learning that gives you a problem to solve in a unique way and you have better learning outcomes. So I appreciate you sharing that switching gears a little bit. I think the piece that we're missing right now is, the landscape of the district.

So tell us a little bit more about the ins and outs of your district that you feel is important for the listeners to know and understand.

[00:08:39] Dr. Donna DeSiato: Sure. This is my 20th year as superintendent. The district has been very stable with regard to its enrollment. We have approximately 600 students pre k through 12. We are in a 78 square mile geographic area that borders the city of Syracuse. So we have [00:09:00] an urban area that's adjacent to the city.

We have a suburban area. And then we have The Manoa area that borders more of the rural area of our county, so we actually are very diverse and as a result, we see the various aspects of that diversity, both in the diversity of those geographic areas, as well as diversity in our socioeconomic levels.

Of support for our families, the in addition we have operated for a very long period of time from the mid 60s forward of a full pre K that was initially half day and is now full day pre K. So we've had a very strong investment in early childhood. Most recently, and we can talk more about that in the last six years, now seven years, we added an early college high school that's in partnership with our community college.

We go through from pre K to early college high school.

[00:09:59] Dr. Jim: When you [00:10:00] describe the district. One of the things that I think about is building cohesion across such a diverse landscape, both socioeconomically and geographically, how did you bring together a unified district when you have so many different sort of pockets or enclaves of of the student population across the district?

[00:10:19] Dr. Donna DeSiato: The when I became superintendent, we did not have a strategic plan, and I do have to say that our strategic plan is the cornerstone, it is the blueprint, it is the guide that has taken us We spent 1 year developing it from 2007 to 2008. We launched it in 2008 and we have had 5 year segments of that plan.

Each 5 years, we completely renew it, engaging our community. Our very 1st strategic plan, we had 1000 of our stakeholders engaged in the strategic plan from either in person meetings to surveys to focus forums. Whatever it took, and that was an important part of having a very [00:11:00] strong foundation and buy in from our community.

In addition we did a community or world cafe in starting that process, and asked five questions of the stakeholders. In doing that, we also had a community cafe for students in grades six to twelve, and we asked those same five questions. And one of the questions, again, that was a point in my career that I will never forget.

The fifth question was, what are our untapped resources? And in the student cafe, the students answered, we are. So it truly resonated and it also underscored how important it is to engage students continuously, not only in the learning, but in the process of what it is we're learning and how we're learning.

[00:11:44] Dr. Jim: One of the things that I'm really interested in understanding is that, the typical shelf life for a superintendent is probably two, three years within a district. And you've been in this district for a lot longer than that. And I would think that when you have that sort of [00:12:00] tenure. There would be a temptation to go on autopilot. And here you are doing some really innovative things throughout your tenure here. What was it about what you saw in the district that kept driving that innovation and continuous improvement culture or mindset? With you, but also embed that throughout the district,

[00:12:19] Dr. Donna DeSiato: it really boils down to really multiple factors. We have an outstanding Board of Education who truly believes that the work that we're doing is important and fosters that ability to really bring about change. We have an amazing staff that has also particularly been engaged in the design and the infrastructure.

Of our plan and a very supportive community that truly embraces why education is an important part of a child's not only early years, but their lifelong years and that it is a game changer when you put all those ingredients together. You really do breed both success and the ability to facilitate change.

And that's what was [00:13:00] exciting to me. Jim was that. I could come to a community and lead and not be in a one size fits all box, and we'll talk more about how difference, what the differences are in all the things that we offer and lead through that ability to engage our stakeholders and bring about meaningful change.

[00:13:17] Dr. Jim: it's interesting that a lot of our conversation so far has touched on concepts of innovation and continuous improvement. Why was it important for you to bring that mindset into the classroom? And how did you build that as a cultural perspective across all the different schools in your district?

[00:13:34] Dr. Donna DeSiato: Yeah, I would say that the cornerstone being our strategic plan, we also learned early on that in order to embrace this type of process of really transformation. Of being both a continuing improvement type of organization, but as well, bringing in things we've never done before. So where's the innovation and the thinking about the things that we need to be [00:14:00] doing for a 21st century, a current generation education it was imperative that we be educating our community. At simultaneously about the ways in which the world is changing the way in which the workforce is changing the ways in which technological tools are becoming more available and the ways in which learning needs to be also not only changing but becoming more relevant in today's learner.

[00:14:30] Dr. Jim: So I like how you described all the changes that are going on and communicating that to the families in the community. How did you cultivate that inbound feedback from the business community in your district that it helped informed what innovation looks like, what practical learning looks like, what application of concepts looks like in the classroom what role did the business community play in shaping that strategic plan?

[00:14:55] Dr. Donna DeSiato: Our first strategic plan had 5 pillars and just to give you an idea, [00:15:00] we were working on all of these things simultaneously. Simultaneously, academic excellence and rigor communication systems and structure, partnerships for learning, youth development and leadership, and digital literacy and information technology.

Those partnerships for learning were certainly families, but they also were business and higher ed. And what we learned very early on in the very. First five years of our strategic plan. We actually have a student led credit union. So credit union partnered with us to develop having a student led credit union in the mainframe of our high school students can do their banking and they can learn financial literacy and how to set up a checkbook or how to manage a budget right in our high school from 9 through 12th grade.

And that branch called the Spartan branch operates three days a week, and it's accessible to our students and to our staff. We, and that was with the, at the time, the core federal credit union. Now it's the [00:16:00] community federal credit union.

[00:16:01] Dr. Jim: It's really interesting that you have that community partnership with the credit union and you're teaching high school students, financial literacy.

What other partnerships did you put together that helped Students apply more of the things that they're learning in classroom and create a potential pathways to career opportunities post graduation.

[00:16:22] Dr. Donna DeSiato: there were several. 1 of those is our partnership with SUNY ESF. We created the classroom. That's a and it actually came about because I got a call from the mayor of Manoa saying our wastewater treatment plan. Isn't didn't meet code. And I said, I'm not sure how I can help you. And he said doc.

Yeah. I know that you're doing a lot of hands on mind on work, and I'm wondering if we could partner along with bringing SUNY ESF in and create some kind of an environmental studies course right here. We began that today, it's still going on. It was it's now into its 14th year. It is [00:17:00] called surf clean water educational research facility.

Our students are going there. Each week twice a week and then also within our classroom at the high school and they're doing aquaponics. They're looking at biodiversity. They're looking at all types of environmental studies at a high school and actually at a college level. In addition to that type of partnership, we have career and technical education programs, such as automotive tech, the automotive industry embraced us and with partnerships with 1 of our local.

Businesses, we were, we are able to either rebuild or build a kit car every year and we raffle that car when it's completely built by our students right here as part of their and that's one of their after school activities, they actually have auto tech as a program that they can be engaged in and enrolled in during the day, but as an after school activity, they can actually build a car or rebuild a car and we raffle that car each year.

[00:17:57] Dr. Jim: So that, from a programmatic [00:18:00] perspective, that's a lot of depth. And what I find interesting is that you're solidly a mid size school district. So I would imagine there are going to be people listening who are in mid size school districts. To this conversation, and they're probably wondering, I will.

How did you get funding for all of this stuff? Because this seems like it would be a pretty big lift, and we're not sure if a midsize district would have those sort of resources. So walk us toward through sort of the resourcing process. So you had the ability to create these programs and deploy them successfully.

[00:18:35] Dr. Donna DeSiato: Again, it's varied ways in which we have never had any we're in a 2 percent tax cap state. So we stay within that 2 percent tax gap. The monies that we've been able to bring to bear are either a shifting of our resources. To stop doing certain things that we no longer needed to do because they were really more antiquated or outdated and apply things to things that we needed to be doing grants that we've been able [00:19:00] to acquire or these partnerships with business and industry.

The other is a major, for example, grant the. The Early College High School is a 1. 25 million grant that's now been renewed. We've received the first five years. We've now had it renewed for the second five years. So that's a partnership with Onondaga Community College. Our students can graduate with a high school diploma along with a degree, a two year degree in either computer science, math science, or engineering science from Onondaga Community College.

That the aspects of that is all paid for in the grant along with the ways in which we've shifted within our district.

[00:19:41] Dr. Jim: It's really interesting that you talk from the resourcing perspective, how you're shifting resources from older programs and new programs with the intent of innovating through it. So when you look at that, how are you measuring what programs are still relevant or what programs might need a refresh?

What was the [00:20:00] process for determining, how you shift gears?

[00:20:02] Dr. Donna DeSiato: It, the framework of our strategic plan has, provides the systems level work and guides it while simultaneously we have a school improvement planning model so that at each level we're digging deeper into what we need to do to either continue the course, modify the course or actually transform an area of learning at the pre k level, at the elementary level, the middle school, and the high school level.

In doing that, as superintendent, I found early on it was very important to give people, as I mentioned, that, for example, that middle school team that was in an advanced stage of this work, permission, support, and protection. And by that, permission to help us to understand. How will we improve our work? When you think about, for example, the aviation industry, they look into a black box to discover what are the ways that we can improve the flight so that these things are better improved. The medical profession, they look [00:21:00] into human systems. How can we improve our practice? In education, we need to be looking at our practice.

And on learning and brain research and how students learn and then improving it. So we gave permission, help us to better understand that, support Einstein said you can't solve a problem at the same level that it was created. So what's the support in either professional learning, in materials, in conferences, in collaborative synergy that might go on between education and business and industry or higher ed.

And then protection of when we're first trying something out. We're not going to allow people to come in and make the critical types of opinions that's going to deflate our staff and what they're doing. We're going to protect our staff so that they get to fully implement something and reflect on their own work and continue it. And those are key elements to bringing about this type of change.

[00:21:53] Dr. Jim: So that's a really good run through. I think when I think about all the things that we've talked about so far, I would imagine [00:22:00] that there is almost a flywheel effect where you're constantly getting suggestions for new programs to be implemented. But there's only so many hours in the day. So how are you prioritizing what needs a refresh?

What's something new that we should consider? What drives that decisioning process?

[00:22:16] Dr. Donna DeSiato: That's again, what's very interesting. We've had that 1 most recently. I happen to serve on the Syracuse International Airport. Authority board, and, on that board is a 1 of the retired pilots. He said to me I know that you're very invested in. Hands on mind on type of experiential work.

Industry in aviation is really challenged with regard to having pilots coming into the profession and would you consider they're working on a curriculum out of Maryland? And it's with the, it's 1 of the national. Pilot associations, they will talk with you, they'll give you the curriculum. We got on the phone with [00:23:00] them.

Now, this again is about 7 years ago. And they provided us with all of the curriculum. They trained our technology teacher. We asked our technology department, is this something that you are interested in? We began to look at courses that were no longer relevant. When we started our strategic plan, we were doing still keyboarding.

Our kids didn't need keyboarding. And so there were things that we could remove and other things that we could integrate. We learned Aviation 1 and then we built Aviation 2. In the meantime, American Airlines came out with a grant. We applied for that grant. We were the recipients of that grant.

American Airlines flew our principal and our teacher to Texas. We received in flight simulators that were put into our classroom and from that, subsequently, we have built an aviation career and technical education pathway. Our students now have. A full continuum of courses and they actually get their drones pilot license or they're prepared [00:24:00] to take an actual pilots exam upon completing that coursework.

And that's been approved by the New York State Education Department.

[00:24:08] Dr. Jim: That's really cool. The thing that I'm thinking about is. When do you start exposing students in the district to all of these different pathways? Because sometimes if they're just catching this in high school, it might be too late from a foundational perspective. So what are the things that you've done from an embedding perspective that starts the conversation about these pathways as early as possible?

[00:24:31] Dr. Donna DeSiato: Part of that is part of that is with our again, our strategic plan and our career. We have a school to college and career advisory. Committee and that does have an array of stakeholders that also include not only educators, but business and industry from a variety of different business and career sectors and higher education.

We're looking at continuously, what are the things that we need to be embedding in our elementary schools? 1 of the early [00:25:00] on integrations, for example, came out of the Boston Museum of science. It's a, it's a. The helping our elementary students learn the engineering design process and that comes out of the Boston Museum.

We go right through in our middle school and more recently with the advent of micron, we are 1 of the school districts that is received from New York state from micron and from the American Federation of teachers funding to support an advanced technology framework. And how do we. Help to develop these courses again some of that aspect of that exposure will happen in elementary But some of it will happen more intensely in middle school.

So that as our students are Coming to the high school. They have a sense of what kinds of career pathways They want to explore and go into in a more intense And comprehensive way

[00:25:50] Dr. Jim: One of the things that I'm struck by is all the work that's gone into embedding innovation and continuous improvement into the district, as well as bringing in [00:26:00] community and business feedback to help shape what that actually looks like. And all of that is good. I think there are going to be people that are listening to this and wondering what's been the impact of doing all this work? What's been the impact on the student side in terms of achievement? What's been the impact in terms of community and business impacts? So give us a rundown of all the things that you've noticed since you've launched this and how that's impacted the all the different stakeholders that are involved in this.

I

[00:26:29] Dr. Donna DeSiato: sure The I think that the impact, which certainly we're very proud of and pleased with is that when we do a look back of 10 years which the state has just asked all districts to do, we're seeing that we have a stable. Enrollment, we're seeing that we have very strong attendance rates. Even post cobit that while we had a dip.

We've come back out of COVID and re strengthened, and I think that's a tribute to the types of learning and we have [00:27:00] actually increased our graduation rate from the 10 year mark, the 20 year mark to the 10 years ago, from the 10 years to present, throughout, so each, and we're now hovering at approximately a 91 to 92 percent, at times hitting a 93 percent Graduation rate on an annual basis and we've been able to sustain that despite the COVID impact.

Our test scores continue to demonstrate that while certainly we have areas for improvement, we continue to maintain strong strides and continuous improvement in those areas. And 1 of the reasons why I somewhat have some reservations about that is because I do think that 1 of the things that's holding us back.

Is that for too long, we're relying on strictly a paper pencil measure and there's so many other ways to look at student learning. And I, so I think that's the major impact with regard to the business and community. I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge the fact that our 1st learning tour was sponsored and supported [00:28:00] by Siemens.

11 of our staff members throughout the district, along with. Siemens executives, along with higher ed representatives from Syracuse University on a community college. SUNY ESF joined us in taking a learning tour to two premier STEM high schools in the country. So we could take a look at what that would look like.

And we learned through those partnerships, the partnership with TISE, the Institute for Excellence in STEM, that we could network with not only state, but national and international. And we've made those commitments to it, to that networking. And that's been a tremendous impact. We were one of the first of the 19 STEM learning ecosystems in the country recognized at the White House in 2015.

Today, we are one of over 100 STEM learning ecosystems in the country. And those are only a small. Number of we have many awards and many recognitions that the district or our teachers or [00:29:00] our students have received throughout this continuum of learning and this continuum of change.

I

[00:29:06] Dr. Jim: mean, that's there's a lot in what you said. That's impressive. I think one of the things that really caught my attention was the graduation rates because when you describe graduation rates in the nineties, that's approaching what typically private school districts or private schools actually talk about in terms of graduation rates.

So when you're talking about a midsize school district in a diverse socioeconomic environment and a diverse geographic environment that's cranking out Graduation rates that are on par with what you would see at a typical private school that speaks to some of the impact and the outcomes that that you've been able to deliver.

I want to ask you to zoom out now, and you look at all of the different pieces that you've put into place that have driven these outcomes. And now you're advising another superintendent who might want to go this direction with their district. What are the key elements from a [00:30:00] foundational perspective that they need to think about?

And put into place so that they're set up for success as they make this sort of shift to more an experiential learning district.

[00:30:09] Dr. Donna DeSiato: mean, clearly for us, it's focusing on what matters, no matter what may be coming at us, including a pandemic or if I were to go all the way back to 2008, challenge with regard to the financial world. And it's impact on everything including school systems. Whatever has come our way, we've stayed the course with a very clear focus on what matters, and that is student learning.

We have actually, because of our business partners, they will provide resources to have people, we've offered STEM learning or learning tours, I should say, because we go beyond the STEM world now. We have so many other aspects of our district that we're strengthening. But we offer learning tours to other districts that we've had districts come from over a hundred different districts and six different countries to visit.

I think that it, that's an important piece in the giving [00:31:00] back because when educators actually see it, they can then look at it and say, we could do this. And then they have to really figure out in their own world what partnerships they would develop in their own community. What things do they need to do to put in a mechanism for a process for change?

But this is not a top down agenda. This is really an engagement agenda. It's really an agenda that honors the fact that we're continuously improving, but we're also continuously recognizing we have to be part of an innovation and transformation agenda as well. Because there's things that we were not doing in the 50s, That we need to be doing in 2025 and beyond if we're going to educate today's learner.

[00:31:47] Dr. Jim: Great stuff, Donna. If people want to continue the conversation, and I know we're just scratching the surface of some of the things that you've done. What's the best way for them to get in touch with you?

[00:31:55] Dr. Donna DeSiato: Certainly by my email they can ddesiato at [00:32:00] esmschools. org is probably the best way. They call us, contact us, we'll certainly follow up. We've learned a lot because of the fact That we've been able to partner with others. The other part, Jim, that I will also say, we happen to be also a Covey district.

We believe in Covey's highly effective principles. And what we've learned from Covey is that there's the continuum of dependence, independence, and interdependence. Quite often we think that we're trying to achieve with our students or with ourselves independence. But the highest level of the continuum is interdependence. And that's really what we're striving for. And that's why Moving to an interdependent type of working with, in our system and with the partnerships from our community, from our state and nationally and internationally is key because it takes us out of that being siloed and gets us into a more interdependent, higher level of functioning.

[00:32:55] Dr. Jim: Really great stuff, Donna. I appreciate you hanging out with us and sharing your story. And [00:33:00] especially when we're talking about the concepts of innovation and continuous improvement, I think that's a, every organization needs to have that in top of mind.

When I think through the conversation that we had and look at key factors that helped. Set up a strong foundation for this. I think it goes back to what you were talking about in your strategic plan. You establish five pillars that were critical for you and the district team to establish, and then you build your built your continuous improvement and innovation plan on top of those key pillars.

And I think. When you look across any district and you're looking to innovate and continuously improved, it's improved. It's important to have those keystone elements that you care about. And you asked the question how do we bring this to life in our staff, our students, our communities and our businesses so that you're creating that interdependent system That helps drive that innovation and high performance.

So that's the connective tissue that I think is important. Or at least that stood [00:34:00] out to me. So I appreciate you sharing that for those of you who have been listening to this conversation. We appreciate you hanging out and checking out the discussion. If you liked it, make sure you leave us a review on your favorite podcast player.

If you haven't already done so, make sure you join our K through 12 leadership community that'll be found in the show notes and then tune in next time where we'll have another great leader hanging out with us and sharing with us the game changing insights that helped them build a high performing team.