00:00 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

Biggest success was that I hired an editor and she has been the best thing that ever happened to my business. She calls for me now so I literally have come home from a session upload to Google Drive. She goes through. I've been with her since last fall and she didn't call for probably the first six or eight months, so she really had an idea of like what I was picking and now I don't even feel like I need to go back and double check. Did she take out the wrong thing? I just look it over and can send it off and she's nailed my editing style and this made me so much happier.

00:39 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

This is the Photo Business Help podcast, a resource for photographers of all levels, from brand new to burnt out, who believe that business growth starts with personal growth. I'm your host, natalie Jennings. I created Jennings Photo back in 2010 and have been happily full time since, but not without some mistakes along the way. Those lessons, plus what's really helped me thrive financially and personally, are what I want to share with you so you can grow with your photo business too. You'll also hear stories from other photographers and industry folks, as well as my favorite ways to be more mindful and happier on this journey.

01:20

One of my favorite things to do on this show is to follow people's journeys. Today, I am revisiting a conversation I had with Kate Simpson a couple of years ago. She is now moving into her third year of business and things are growing, in her own words, year after year, and that's wonderful to hear. We talk about what does that mean? We talk about numbers a lot and what you should be tracking what she tracks but we're also diving into her school photo program that she started with her business. She has the cutest little kids on her website and she is really, really doing well with this model. So if doing school like fun school portraits is something that you've thought about doing and you just haven't done it yet. This is the episode for you, because you can learn from Kate and see if it's something that you want to try. But first, a few words from the folks that support this show. Well, welcome back. It's so great to have you on the show again, kate.

02:26 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

Yeah, thanks for having me again. It kind of feels surreal that it's been just a couple more years and I'm in a totally different place in the business than previously.

02:35 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Well, one of the things that I think is important with this podcast is that people who are trying to start and grow photo businesses hear from people that are doing the same thing, Because I think at least from my own experience it's easy to feel like you're in a vacuum when you're doing these things, especially because most of us don't work for a studio and we don't work for another photo company. We're just in our offices trying to figure it out In our little closets.

03:03

Yeah, I was like are you in a closet or an office or I don't remember. Like people sometimes are in closets when you know and it's a great place to record, absolutely.

03:11 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

Yeah, it's a basement room too. I'm like right by the window on the other side, so that helps my morale a little bit when I'm not out in the world shooting.

03:19 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Yeah, yeah, yeah Well, so why don't we just go back to sort of square one and just do a quick overview of when you started and then kind of what you're up to now, just to sort of give folks an idea of what's going on, in case they missed the other episode you were on, which we'll link to that as well in the show notes, so people can get the whole story if they're interested.

03:39 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

So I officially started my business, launched it in February of 21. And mainly what we talked about that last time I was on the show was I spent a pretty hefty amount of time three to four months, like doing very targeted portfolio building sessions for free. I had like a specific number that I wanted to do of newborn, maternity, family, which were all the genres that I was going to get into, and I want to say I had like just wrapped up all of that portfolio building time and was getting ready to launch and finally start charging for my services. When we last talk, I think that's right.

04:16 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Yeah, yep, I remember that conversation pretty well and well, we can get into that. Keep going. I don't want to interrupt you.

04:23 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

Yeah. So anyway, I finally launched and started and have been running the business since then. So I'll be coming up on three years in February and at that time I hadn't really been thinking about school photography as much. I was just going to focus on the three things that I mentioned. But the director at the preschool that my youngest was going to at the time pulled me aside after school a pickup one day and was like hey, do you think you could take the kids photos this fall, like in a month? Can you do it? And it was something that I had been thinking about.

04:55

There is a course by a pretty well known photography educator, Elena Sanchez Blair, that she has called school, that I took, which was awesome. I kind of I feel like I'm like a spokesperson for her course and she probably has no idea who I am. I'm just one of her thousands of students. I'm not getting any kickback, but I would highly recommend that course to everybody that's thinking about getting into this, just to lay a foundation and kind of give you a place to run from Perfect. But yeah, I did that and did my first school in the fall and have kind of built it from there and I'm at a point right now where I was just kind of looking at my numbers yesterday and my schools are projected to be 52% of my revenue for this year. So I'm really like half and half with single client family sessions and then this volume arm of my business.

05:43 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

That's amazing. Congratulations on that and on the three years. That's no small feat. It's the first three years, I think is probably the hardest.

05:51 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

That's good to hear.

05:53 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Or at least it's definitely up there. I mean, there's definitely all sorts of different challenges along the way, but I think just starting and maintaining something and growing it that's the big one is really tough. Maybe I would love to just revisit a little bit about what we talked about last time really quick, before we talk about the school stuff, just to sort of fill in that gap for people that might not have heard that episode again. But I really loved that. We talked about prepping and having portfolio. You know, a lot of that early stage issue that people have is like where do I get clients? And sometimes, as in your case, it's not necessarily about getting full paying clients right away. It's about just getting out there and shooting and seeing not only what you like but building your portfolio. So maybe you want to talk just a little bit about those first few months of your business. Yeah, yeah.

06:52 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

So they were frustrating in some ways because I mean, it's a lot of work and it takes like at that time it was taking me way longer to shoot a session and way longer to call and edit than it does now. And I remember my husband being like, are you just going to keep doing all this for free? Like you're going to be gone for hours, but I think, going into it and having a plan for the number that you want to do, well, like I forget if I had 10 or 20 sessions I wanted to do of like each of those genres, but I had a number, like I had a goal and that was my plan and it was valuable in so many ways. Like it was valuable because it gave me the confidence to make sure that I could walk into a session and actually deliver what somebody was expecting. It kind of took the pressure off because you're doing a free session. So like, yeah, I was nervous and I wanted to deliver something good for them, even if they weren't paying, but at the same time they knew I was brand new. Expectations were low on both ends. So it really took away a lot of that pressure and just allowed me to make sure that I could do it.

07:54

And one of the other key, like most important pieces that it taught me was like how expensive or not how expensive, how important it is to charge enough, because, like actually seeing how long it took. It was like if I once I ran my numbers and figured out my cost to join business and had that like mini heart attack over how much I had to charge there's nobody in the world that's going to pay me this much. What my numbers are telling me I need to charge. It was like Well, either somebody's gonna pay it or they're not, and then I'm not gonna do it, I'm gonna do something else. Right, because I had seen Exactly what I had to put into it. And I think if I had not done that and just like started out pricing low and trying to build up, it would have been a much more frustrating experience.

08:43 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

That's really valuable. I love that. You said that I just am not gonna do it if they're not gonna pay me for it, and that's Genius, because if you're out there hustling and burnt out and sick of this, it really comes down to that you don't have to be doing this the way you're doing it, and it's not worth it to continue doing it without meeting your numbers and numbers should be something that you have figured out so that you know where you're at and all this and that's something that you did right away, which is great, exactly the thing you should do. But I totally think that's a valuable thought to just plant in people's heads, like, if you're not happy with, like, what you're bringing home Against the work that you're putting in, something has to change or you just you're not gonna make it.

09:27 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

Yeah, like maybe this can just be for me and I'm gonna take my own family photos, maybe I'm gonna just get a job, I don't know whatever. But and like surprise, people were willing to pay me what my numbers showed me I needed to be paid. So there's that too. Like it's just, I think we all have to have that little heart attack when we actually run our numbers and have that moment where we're like I can't imagine anybody doing it. And then you get that first person that like agrees afterwards and you're like, oh okay, this is happening. And then you feel confident from there on out and you're fine.

10:00 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Yeah, and maybe even having, you know, a low ticket offer and then your regular like desired high ticket offer. You know like many's have been great for getting people in the door and many of those folks then move into longer sessions because they realize like, oh, I want more than just a few good ones.

10:15 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

Yeah, and I would say another educator that I just loved I believe you've had on the podcast before is on a made Tomkin I think I'm saying her name correctly, but I use her simple sales system. So that was another course that I purchased and it kind of accomplishes what you were just saying. So I think so many of my clients come in and they pay a session, feed, a book, and then the way it works with simple sales is that you Deliver a slideshow that they watch and then, based on what they see from that slideshow, they make a decision between one of three collections. Collection one is like itty-bitty. In my case it includes 10 images and a 75 dollar print credit. Collection B for me is 20 images and a 200 dollar print credit. And then Collection C is every photo that they see in a 500 dollar and I would imagine so many of my clients come in and they're like, well, I'm gonna get collection A like I don't need all that.

11:08

I'm gonna be totally happy with 10 photos, and almost nobody does like again running those numbers. I want to say it's like 70% in that getting collection C. Once they see it, and I think if I didn't have those options, so many more people wouldn't come through the door because they're like why I'm not gonna spend that much. Like I'm gonna be okay with the smaller package and then they're not. But the option is there somebody that has a lower budget or perhaps like could spend the money but just doesn't want to, which is fine too right. Like we're all obligated to spend what we want and there's still choices that are present.

11:42 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Yeah, no, that's a great point and on a me does an amazing job in all the things she did, all of the things she's been on the podcast yes, I've been on her podcast as well and her simple sales solution. I was just looking at my numbers because I have been putting off implementing it, but I'm going to do some experimentation with it next year and it's it's just, you know a lot of stuff that I already had figured out. It's an incredible program. So you've named a couple good ones if people are interested. But I think you have to know your numbers. You just have to, like, you have to know them, and I know that sounds just like well, like where do I start? That's a good place to start, or there's definitely a few episodes here that you can go back and listen to.

12:21

But I like that you brought that up and not to spend too much time on this.

12:24

But so this idea of kind of getting the nerves out and getting the like experience sort of Out of your system the firsts, I guess, by just Volunteering to do photos for people and I know that's tiring and you can decide for yourself when you kind of need to call that quits. But I think that's genius because I do remember when we had that conversation you were just starting out and it looked like you had been doing this for a lot longer than you had. So, yeah, I imagine that what people saw and whatever growth that you've experienced because you said you've been growing Year after year in the last two and a half three years is Probably hugely due to the fact that you were prepared going in, and I just think that I think that little extra Free work up front covers a lot of bases. Like you said, it gives you the experience, it calms your nerves a little bit, it gets you new clients because likely a lot of those folks, I'm guessing, eventually paid you so they didn't.

13:24 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

I had that's an interesting phenomenon and I think it goes back to it was on a my tongue and I think she has like a play your sales holiday course and I'm pretty sure in there she said there's this like phenomenon about once somebody pays a discounted rate or nothing, in this case when I was offering that for free. They just can't get it out of their head a lot of time to pay more. And I have one family actually just did a session for them Two weeks ago. They just bought their collection, the top collection, like a couple days ago and they are the one exception. I would say that they were one that was in my free portfolio building and I've done like two or three others since them, but otherwise, no, none of those families now my regular clients that like started out as paying clients like I've got tons of them that I've done multiple sessions for. But yeah, interesting phenomenon.

14:13 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

But I'm actually really glad you brought that up as well. So something to think about. If you're in the early, early stages and you want to do some portfolio building you know, keep in mind that this is something that happens with folks and that you might want to just have a limit, and I think a handful of free sessions could build your entire starting website and a Handful of beautiful blog posts and tons of content. So this doesn't have to be a bajillion sessions. You could literally do five minis and have enough content to really really get a jumpstart on your business if you're looking to start out.

14:46 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

So yeah, because you also have to just do it at some point. And I think I'm just my personality, I'm the type that's gonna like over plan and over prepare and over research, which is good in some ways but like also, at some point you just got to do it right. So, yeah, just dive in at some point and go for it.

15:05 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

You do, and that can feel like, oh, I'm not ready. Back to the pricing thing, like, oh, who's gonna pick? You just have to do it. Yeah, you're not gonna be ready, like yeah, I mean I'm sitting here doing this podcast and I've done all sorts of educational stuff and I was just trying stuff. I mean you just have to try it and then, if it works, you can tell other people about it. But you really just have to kind of trust your gut and go with what feels right.

15:29 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

So yes, and you have a whole episode about that. I think about just like just trying it. Just try things like it's not like open-heart surgery, you're not gonna kill anybody, right like you? Can we have the freedom to play around a little bit and change things as we go, which is awesome?

15:44 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Yes, absolutely. Well, let's talk about that playing around and trying new things and in this school photo thing, because again know that this has come up a few times in my own circles and some conversations on here. But tell me about what you're doing with school photos. They're so cute. By the way, check the link I owe for Kate's website, because they're just the cutest little kids. I love it.

16:07 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

They are. They're like Fabulous. It's those days that I do school. They are the most exhausting shooting days I have, like I can't walk the next day because you're just like up down all over. I don't think I was prepared for like the physical toll it takes on your body, but at the same time, like I come home and I just feel so full because they're amazing, like that preschool age, which is most of what I do.

16:31

I have two schools that are daycare, so all the way down to infants, which is a whole nother challenge when you're doing a volume type Photography, but most are preschool and those kids are just like the perfect age. Like you don't have to be a comedian, like you don't have to like. I have a couple Jokes that I just say over and over again. I'm sure the director, whoever sitting there with me, is like oh my gosh, but like I know what works and it gets the kids laughing and they're amazing. Yes, they have so many good expressions.

16:59 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

I just love them. Yeah, so what prompted this? Getting in touch with you to do another interview, as you had this really beautiful Instagram booklet you were showing.

17:09 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

Yeah, yeah, that was actually. It was a printed booklet. Yes, that I did. So that's new for me. Previously I've just kind of cold emailed schools and that's how I do. I'm up to seven or eight schools a year right now. So, aside from that one school which was my kids preschool that I still do, I've added all those other ones on just by cold emails.

17:28

I will say, like you can't be discouraged, like I've probably emailed 80 schools to get those seven, so you're gonna get like some people respond and they're like oh, we already have a photographer that we love, we'll keep you in mind. Most people don't respond at all, but again, I think you just can't. You can't. It's just like when somebody doesn't book you for a family session, it's okay. You have to be okay with that. You have to be okay with getting ghosted and not getting a response and just Knowing you're gonna have to reach out to X number to even get like the one that agrees. But the marketing booklet you were talking about is a new thing that I tried this fall. I actually hired a graphic designer to put that together and then I'm gonna be mailing it out to schools. I've only sent it to like 10 so far, just because things got crazy with the fall. But I'll do another big push with the rest of the copies I have later and hopefully that'll make a difference, just to see Photos and print and everything laid out like that.

18:21 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Yeah, it was really beautiful and again, the kids at that age, that preschool age, are so super cute. But I just I really like that this is an emerging market and I know there are a couple of larger companies that do this, like slow road and stuff, but yes, and they do an amazing job.

18:35 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

There are my local competitor. That's when they get into a lot of the bigger schools as well.

18:40 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's fun to know that like this is definitely an option for people if they no matter where they're listening around the world, if they're not here in Minnesota. It's never something that we run out of when it comes to in terms of schools. I mean, there's always kids and there's always school. So, yes, and and it's, I'm Imagining maybe you could talk just a little bit. You don't have to maybe give away all of the house, but just sort of like what it looks like.

19:04 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

So I do, and this is one area where I've dippered a little bit from what Elena teaches. She's all natural light. I don't think she's opposed to a strobe or flash, but she just teaches natural light. I do strobe for all of my sessions for schools, not for family or Newborn maternity necessarily, unless I need it. But I have found that using the strobe, first of all, it's gotten me into several schools that I would have never been able to book because I am two or three of them. I'm just like shoved in the basement because that's the most convenient spot and like there's no light whatsoever, right, like I have to have my lighting equipment then. And also it makes the editing and the consistency with color brightness, all of that. It makes it so much more streamlined on the back end, which is critical with this type of work. That's another point.

19:53

When I go into a school, nobody is obligated to purchase their child's photos and nobody's paying me upfront, like the school is not paying me. In fact, I'm giving them a 10% donation of my profits, which I'm more than happy to do because they put me in front of like hundreds of families in my community and many of which are ideal clients. Their staff are helping me throughout the day. I am totally okay with that 10% donation, but anyway I make all of my money on the back end. So you know, sometimes it's like the cutest kid that for whatever reason, the parent doesn't buy that gallery. So you just never know who it's going to be. So you have to be working efficiently and getting these galleries out and not spending as much time on it. And the strobe really helps with that. That's great.

20:40

So it's a simple one light setup. I mean I'm not doing a crazy two, three light, hair light, everything like that. I've just got one. I use MagMod because it's like super modular. I can break it down, it's all magnet, pop it up crazy quick.

20:54

I've moved from putting a reflector for fill light and I've moved to a full out V flat, which is a little more of a pain in the butt to get in and out of these schools, but it also helps with consistency. That's so nice, yeah. And then background some people use like a collapsible smaller backdrop. I do a lot of sibling portraits which have helped my numbers, and you need a little bit more of a bigger backdrop so you're not having to extend backgrounds and posts which again like the time that I would have to spend doing that I just don't even want to think about. So I bring in just this year I've changed to a savage and this role, which has been a game changer. So again it's a little bit effort to get it in and set up and out of the schools, but it just makes the process so much quicker and easier.

21:42 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Yeah, and I mean you're just doing it one day, I'm guessing, or two days, yeah, one day.

21:47 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

For schools that are over 40 kids, I do offer a makeup day, and as I'm coming back to these schools, the sibling spots are getting more and more popular. So, for example, the school that I just delivered galleries just closed yesterday. That school only has 42 kids, but with the sibling signups I ended up shooting 69 galleries that I delivered. So, yeah, I end up with, like I mean, a gallery I guess I should preference. So, like, the child that attends the school is one gallery, the sibling is one gallery, and then the two of them together is a third gallery and the parents can buy from there. So, yeah, with a school like that that has tons of sibling signups, I end up pushing them to the beginning of the makeup day, which is kind of nice because it makes the makeup day a little more worthwhile, especially if you might otherwise only have a couple kids that would be there.

22:37 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

That's really cool, that's great. Well, I appreciate you sharing all this, and I think there's going to be a few people listening that are like, yeah, I've been wanting to check this out. They may be parents themselves, whatever, but it's certainly a great way to get in your community, as you said. I mean, you're getting in front of so many people and so if it's you know, even something, even that and it's similar to a mini session in that regard, where that's why I continue to do people like why do you keep doing them? I'm like because I get in front of so many people that way, you know.

23:07 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

Yeah for sure. So that's really, really cool. And there's different things. I haven't yet explored this it's something that's kind of on my radar, but there's pop ups you can do. So it's almost like doing a mini session of these school style portraits just for kids, and some people rent a studio, some people partner with, like a kid's toy store, a clothing store or somebody like that that has the space in their store and is willing to partner with you and host you, and then it would be run very similar to what you do with schools. I would imagine in that situation you'd probably do a little bit more of a prepay, unlike schools. But yeah, that's another avenue to go out with this type of volume work.

23:46 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Oh, awesome. Well, I would love to. Before we wrap up, I'd just love to hear a little bit about sort of just your reflection. It's been a little while since you've been on the show and when we last spoke I was like we're going to revisit this, but just sort of like, what been your biggest challenge since, kind of we last spoke, or even just since starting, or, and what's been going really really well for you, like you're so glad that you did.

24:10 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

Yeah. So biggest challenge, I think, is just like doing the thing. Like I'm still not blogging. We talked about that. It's so critical of things like that and posting to social media. Like I just always have a reason, like another excuse, something that I can be working on, and I feel like one of these days I just need to like hire somebody to write the blog so they get done, because, like it is such a critical piece of marketing and I get all of my inquiries mainly from Google and I know I would get like so much more if I could get blogging and get my SEO ranked up a little higher. So that's been my challenge and I think that's probably part of what I mentioned earlier just my personality with like just wanting to make sure I have my ducks in a roll a little too much and I just need to dive in and start doing it.

24:57

Biggest success was that I hired an editor and she has been like the best thing that ever happened to my business. She calls for me now, so I literally have come home from a session upload to Google Drive. She goes through. I've been with her since last fall and she didn't call for probably the first six or eight months, so she really had an idea of like what I was picking, and now I don't even feel like I need to go back and double check. Did she take out the wrong thing? I just look it over and can send it off and she's nailed my editing style and this made me so much happier, because that's another part that I just like I just don't enjoy and I take way too long doing it, and she does a really good job, so she's been awesome.

25:41 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

I'm so glad you brought that. That's such a great way to like sort of tie up this conversation but just reminding people paying attention to like what you really love and don't love. I love editing, so that's what I've kept in my business, but there's other things that I'm just like I don't want to do this, and even this podcast is a great example. Like as soon as we're done, this gets handed off to somebody and they do all of the production and all of this.

26:09 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

Yeah, I would imagine if you did all that yourself. Like it's stuff I'm not even thinking about Probably takes hours, fun hours.

26:16 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

It does, and it's something I did myself for a very long time. And so I think it's important that you do try to do it yourself and not just assume like oh, I hate editing. Like maybe you like editing, but culling is just a little dull, like I don't love culling, but like when I'm done with a call, I'm like, yes, I get to edit now because I just love that part of it. But I think figuring that out for yourself is incredibly important in business, because you don't want to be stuck doing this stuff. That feels like slogging through mud. I mean, we just finished producing 400 episodes. I mean we just published our last, which is awesome, pretty great, and I would not have done it.

26:50 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

That's an accomplishment. You should be proud. Oh, thank you.

26:54 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Would not have done it without the help of the full cast production team and everybody doing that. So thank you all. So it's just a side note to say like getting help doesn't mean that you're failing. Getting help doesn't mean that it's somehow going to take away from your final beautiful product. Getting help is just filling in the gaps of what you feel like is a slog through cement.

27:18 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

And I've heard, like zone of genius, an easy way to figure out, like, what yours is, like the stuff that you keep putting off. Like I keep putting off vlogging and then that probably means I need to hire it out, right?

27:29 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Like.

27:29 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

I mentioned earlier, because there's a reason I can just never make time for it. I have the time right, Like I could make the time for it, but I don't. Other things are always more important.

27:39 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Yeah, no, I think that's a hugely important point and I'm yeah, I just I think this is really valuable for people because you're in the process of growing your business and you are growing your business. One final question before we jump off. We talk a lot about numbers and people are like I don't get it when you look at your numbers and you say, like I'm growing, what are the sort of main things that you're looking at year over year? If someone were to say, like, is it just gross revenue? Are you looking at specific types of photography that you offer just to give people kind of an idea of what your process is when you're saying like I'm growing?

28:16 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

So gross revenue is kind of irrelevant to me, like, in fact, it drives me nuts when people are always like educators, especially talking about like six figure photographers, and it's like, well, what does that mean? Like that, if that, like they could have only profited 40,000 a year and yet be six figures.

28:31

So I'm always looking at my profit and that's whether it's my overall profit for, like my entire business, my profit for the schools, because that's one thing that we didn't talk about with the schools. I use a volume gallery delivery platform, so it's one that's built for volume, versus like pick time or what's the other one that Elena teaches Shoot proof some of the ones that you can use for more single family clients and there's a lot of cost with that. It's not cheap Like they take a percentage commission, but the amount of administrative like TV is back in time that they save because they're built for that is so worth it and it's just the cost of doing business. So, for the school side, I calculate out after every school what my profit was per gallery I delivered. So even accounting for those kids that didn't buy, I want to know if I have a school booked for 60 kids next week. My average profit per gallery I deliver is this.

29:28

So this is how much I can expect, and one of the other things that I really analyze as well, just to make sure schools are worth it too, is the amount of time it takes me to do a school between, like talking to the school, getting in there and setting up, shooting it, editing, delivering, answering parent questions. The profit that I make from that needs to be on par with what I'm making on the other arm of my business, with I mean, obviously I'm spending way more time, but it equals out to a couple different sessions and it is on par. So if I was finding that my profit was way less than I probably stopped doing schools, because why am I investing my time at that point? I need to just focus on building newborn maternity family instead. So that's one thing that I'm always looking at.

30:14 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Exactly that's so important. I'm just. I was just curious. But looking at your profit is the way to go, because there are so many expenses involved in business, as we all know. So making sure that you're doing that.

30:27 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

And I run the numbers. I'm a big number person. I should probably like learn spreadsheets a little bit better than I do, so it didn't take me quite as much time to crunch the numbers. But every session that I run on the family newborn side I crunch those numbers and figure out what I actually profited in the end just from that session, once I take away their print credit cost and how much I paid my editor, credit card fees, all that sort of thing, so I can look and see and then can get my average over the year. And of course that's not accounting for my overall business expenses. You know the website fees and all the things it takes to run your business. It's not accounting for that but at least it shows me like with each session and I've got a rough idea of how many hours it's taking me to do to make sure I'm paying myself what I feel like is a reasonable wage, because back to if I'm not, then something's got to change.

31:20 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Yeah, and I think taking it session by session like that is helpful for me, I feel like, and probably for you as well, since you've been really like slotted into this for a while now.

31:30

But I find that I can kind of average out exactly what is going to be like.

31:36

I know almost exactly where I'm at with minis, where I'm at with my lower ticket offer, my mid ticket. It's almost the same now all the time. So I definitely check in if I've had like a stretch of being like really busy and but after doing that for years and years and years, I'm almost I'm completely dialed in where I know my profit margin is changing if I'm having to do tons of extra stuff for people which then I've just over the years started charging for. So you know, you start figuring it out that if you're listening and crunching your numbers freaks you out. It's not something you have to do every single session because likely, if you get your numbers down, you're going to be consistently spending four hours per session this amount for this and it's going to even out where you have a good idea. I mean you definitely shouldn't know your numbers up front, but for me, for example, like I know exactly how long a mini session takes and exact at this point.

32:28 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

Yeah, and with me using simple sales, it can get like I mean, maybe you have, for whatever reason, a string of clients that the last two to three only got that smallest package and then, like that starts to get in your head right, you're like, oh my gosh, usually everybody gets the biggest one, or at least the middle one, and now all of a sudden, the last two to three have gotten the smaller one and it's good to go back and like average it out and be like it's okay, you've built that in. You're going to have X number of people that get that smaller one, like for whatever reason, they're in a cluster right now. But just to calm yourself down, I feel like I need a lot of calming and the numbers help me do that a lot of the time.

33:03 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Audrey has said that before on phototherapy episodes she's like the numbers just bring me so much peace. And so if you're scared of numbers and you don't like them, it's actually so empowering because and if it's, it's crazy to think about. You know really just when you're sitting down to do your taxes this year, just go through each statement and pull out all the things If you're not organized. Pull out all the things that are expenses for your business and start just really start looking at stuff and just start kind of figuring out. How long does it take me from email to delivery to do a session with driving included and calling it?

33:36

you know, like just start figuring these things out. I'm not going to give you a whole course and numbers right now, but like it's not terribly hard to do, it's just that you have to, like you have to do it and then, once you do it, it feels really good.

33:50 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

Yeah, and you don't. Like I am not a math person. I have struggled with math since I was my son's age, but this is like simple math, like they were not talking algebra or anything Like if I can do it, you can do it. And the time thing that you mentioned there was like a full year probably my second year in that I downloaded one of those Apps where you like put in and track your time for everything, and that was a game changer to like actually see the reality. Like I had the idea of what I thought I was spending on every session. And then there was what was staring me in the face after I had logged all the time and how much I thought I was spending on bookkeeping or whatever it was for my business emails. Like, oh my gosh, that was so much more of a time suck than I thought it was. So I'd recommend that. Like it was tedious, like I don't still do it, but it was very valuable to have that data for a period of time.

34:40 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

I've been in a number of higher ticket coaching programs for business and over the years and one of the consistent things that pops up in almost all of them I'm just referencing maybe four of them is a time schedule tracker thing that you have to do like every 15 minutes for like a week, which sucks, you know it does. You start looking at it and you're like, oh my gosh, like I need to not be on my phone or whatever it is.

35:10 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

Yeah, and it's not even like wasting time on scrolling Instagram or something. It's not that like they're real business tasks, but it's just shocking how much time you can be wasting or maybe not even wasting Like maybe. The reality is that it just does take you that long and again that's the cost of doing business that you need to factor in when you're making sure your pricing it's reasonable for what you want to make maybe not for the client, but for you.

35:36 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

I think I mean we could talk about this all day, but I think wrapping it right there and just remembering that your time is money, it's part of this equation and it's a huge part of this equation. So you might know what you're spending on galleries and your camera gear and whatever else and you might know some numbers, but if you don't know how long it takes you to do all these things, you're actually not paying yourself very much. If you're one of the folks on the longer end of the spectrum and, like you said, it's not a big deal, I mean it's that's OK if that's what your vibe is, if it takes you a long time, but then just make sure you're getting compensated for it, Because when you do those, when you're back to your like the heart attack thing, it's like I need to charge this much, but when you start looking at it it's like if you break it down.

36:19

I would say most new photographers are paying themselves less than minimum wage.

36:23 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

Yeah, I mean, that was when I looked at the time thing. Yes, yeah, and that's with, like, having these higher prices, that like gave me that heart attack and you still like, if you spend too much time on things and just other business tasks, then yeah, it's very easy.

36:41 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

And it seems counterintuitive to pay for someone else to help you because you're like well then, that's money that I'm not making for myself, but you have so much more energy and time to do other things when someone else is picking up that slack that it's such a valuable business investment if you need the help. So that's another thing to think of too.

37:02 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

Yeah, absolutely. One more thing I would say, like coming back to the school. So one of the reasons I'm totally happy I use got photo as my volume gallery delivery platform and they've got a lot of workflow stuff on the back end, but the amount of time that they save me for each school like I could not pay another person a reasonable wage to do what gets done in that amount of time if that makes sense.

37:28

So like if I couldn't pay somebody else a reasonable wage, like why am I going to do it and pay myself less than minimum wage to do that, when I could be happily paying this platform like this technology to do it? And then reinvesting that time back into my business to actually market or build it, or maybe not, maybe just take some time off, whatever.

37:48 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Yeah, we all have 24 hours is just how we decide to use them. So if that's always a set thing, it's like that's never going to change. So if you're not growing or feeling like things are becoming more profitable, it's really looking at that time because it's that's the same for all of us, you know well, thank you. Okay, this was like it's always so fun to talk to you because it's so fun to watch someone like nailing it and just starting from the beginning, and now you're coming up on your three, which is huge, and just seeing the different things that you're doing. But I really appreciate you coming back and I think these conversations yeah, Thank you for inviting me.

38:24

Yeah, of course, I think I just know that there's people listening that are like feel and pumped up now, like yeah, I can do this. You know, because it's good to hear other people's journeys. And yeah, where can people find and follow you the most? Where are you the most?

38:38 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

So, as I mentioned, I'm not the best at social media, but I've tried to put most of my efforts into Instagram. So I met Kate Simpson photography on Instagram and then my website is katesimpsonphotocom, so I've got a separate little tab up at the top for my schools. I'm in desperate need to update my website. All of those pictures that you see are actually my free portfolio session. So, like I'm sure I know my work now because I'm actually having my editor go back and she's re-editing those old galleries and like picking out the best for me, because sometimes it's hard to pick out your best work. Like you're very invested in these people and you were with them. So I plan to update my website. But my point was the schools tab has actually been updated with the most recent work, so oh cool.

39:24 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Great. Yeah, that would be a good one to look at. We'll do this again. This is really fun to catch up and hopefully, yeah, things keep just growing and growing for you. So thanks so much.

39:34 - Kate Simpson (Guest)

Yeah, thanks, natalie.