This is Apologetics Live to answer your questions.

Your host from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rapoport.

We are live Apologetics Live here to answer your most challenging questions that you have about God and the Bible.

Here at Apologex Live, we can answer any question that you have on the topic of God in the Bible.

And if you doubt that, well, there's an easy way to try to stump us.

Just go to apologetics live.com scroll down till you see the little icon for Scream Yard.

It's the little duck icon.

Join that.

Allow for your camera and microphone to be used.

If you don't want to be on camera, that's fine.

Don't put it on and you can join and ask us anything.

Just remember, I don't know is a perfectly good answer.

So today's show we're going to be talking about the topic of what is the relationship between Israel and the church Hot topic.

Been lots of discussion on that.

And so, you know, I realized, you know, let me first bring in Tom here.

Tom, you know, I did realize something.

If I do a topic that touches on covenantalism.

Yes.

Drew shows up.

Look at that.

True Vanita.

Like we know, we don't know where he is.

He hides it back.

He makes, he's just commenting.

But deal with with this topic.

And he shows up ready to talk.

Look at that.

It's almost as if he was invited.

I know.

Yeah.

I'm not gonna say by who.

Oh, okay, I see how it is.

I'm not gonna say by the bearded evangelist.

So, so ok.

How it is.

So I, I called Tom and said, hey, I, I put out a, a all I did.

I was.

And I decided I wasn't going to comment too much.

Very little I put out, just said that Paul seems to agree to, to have a view that he was part of the church and Jewish because I, you know, there's a verse in Acts 22 that we'll get to where he seems to indicate that he's part of the way.

You know, he's part of the, of Judaism.

And so, boy, did that create a lot of scuffle butt.

And I decided I wasn't going to respond to any of it.

I was just going to, I mean there are a couple that I decided to respond to, but I just read them all and bit my, my tongue pseudo because it was my fingers that were doing stuff.

And then I just said, hey, Tom, let's, you know, we didn't have a topic and I just thought one of the things we're going to start doing on the show.

We, as many of you know, we do an in new section, and we're going to do that in a bit.

But I want to start doing each week some apologetics teaching.

And so each week, Tom and I will take a segment.

Even if we have a guest on.

We might have to do it in the second hour, but we're going to try to have different ideas of things we're going to teach.

So that, as we say here, Apologetics Live is not just to do apologetics, it's to teach it.

And so we're either going to do different topics, we may go into.

What should you study to do apologetics?

Lots of different things in small segments that we'll do.

But I figured it'd be good, since Tom and I are of different persuasions on this topic, to have the discussion.

But I see that Tom felt.

And since Tom's wonderful bride here, Debbie, is saying, hello, everyone.

Debbie is trying to support her husband, I'm sure, but he obviously felt he needed support.

Support here.

He said, you know, he obviously said, let me call Drew so that there's, you know, you know, double team.

But, hey, if you feel the need that you need extra support for your view, since it's not biblical.

I.

I get it.

I get it.

Here's what I know from being on this show for, what, four years, five years.

Yeah.

Getting somewhere close to that is that there's someone that we don't know who yet is going to come on to.

To support the dispensational view.

Okay.

There's.

I know that there's someone.

No one that I have invited.

I.

I'm thinking more than likely, John MacArthur is going to come pop on the screen, and.

And I'm going to be against Andrew rapaport and John MacArthur.

And then what am I going to do?

Hey, I'm not going to get a word in edgewise.

So I figure, hey, Drew, guess what we're doing it on.

Yep.

And.

Hold on.

Hold on a second.

I got.

I got to make a phone call.

Hello?

John, can you.

Can you roll out of your hospital bed, please?

Come on.

It was a couple weeks ago, Tom.

You and Braden and somebody else were doing a live show.

I think it was.

I think it was Austin.

Yeah.

You were doing a live show, and this question kind of came up, and so there was some good discussion back and forth about it in answering that question.

So.

Sure.

Yeah.

And that'd be a good time.

We.

You know, I would love to promote, you know, that we're you're watching this on, you know, Open Air Theology YouTube channel, but you're not, you're probably, you could be watching it on even if none because well, one of the co hosts here has forgotten to, you know, put in his, his, you know, things so that I can share it on open air theology.

Just, just saying.

I, I should have added that.

Matter of fact, we need to do that next time before we start this.

We should.

But, but we should, but do check out open air theology on Streamyard.

So actually here, here at least I'm going to have, I'm going to, I'm going to add someone that is backstage, someone we can all look up to and it is the seven foot apologist Dan Kraft.

So Dan, actually let me ask, I'm curious.

This will be important for tonight.

See if we're, and when we're up and down.

So if, if this, this could work really well.

Are you a dispensationalist or covenant theologian or neither or not sure.

It's okay, you can tell us.

I, I'm somewhere, I'm somewhere in between.

I think I would most closely with John MacArthur, who would call himself a leaky dispensationalist.

I'm not.

I've seen some recently even just really, really crazy dispensationalist websites and that just kind of made me cringe.

Everything makes you cringe.

Yeah, I have a very low cringe, cringe barrier.

Well, if I can help in any.

Way, Reformed theology, like Covenant theology in general, I, I just can't get on board with it, especially the replacement aspects of it.

So.

Well, if this can help.

I worked in plumbing for a time and I can tell you that anything that leaks means it's broken.

Yeah.

And that's why, and that's why I, I've been started calling it Reformed dispensationalism because the reformers said reform, reform, reforming, keep reforming and if you keep reforming, you become dispensational.

See, the Covenant Theological Dam doesn't leak.

Breaks.

Right.

Yeah.

So there you go.

Doesn't that happen if it leaks too much also?

It depends.

It's controlled leak control.

So, so in, I wanted to talk about something in the, in the news section and Tom was unaware of the these events, but I think it's kind of interesting and worthy of discussing something in the political realm.

Maybe some of you have heard that what ended up happening with the Trump administration was that they were using an app called Signal, which is an encrypted app for sharing messages, and they accidentally added A reporter to the discussion and were discussing different things about a attack that they were going to do.

And it was kind of interesting because it revealed that though they say everyone, no one can disagree with Trump, there was lots of disagreement in the Signal chat.

Now, I'm not so much focused as if you listen to any political commentary.

They've all been focused on that and what was said and all that.

And, and so actually, so I'm just looking here, someone says, hey, guys, are questions open every time we're on?

They're open.

So, yes, you can always go to apologexlive.com and you can join us there and have a discussion.

What I want to focus on, though, getting back to this Signal app is two things that I find very, very interesting.

And there is some apologetics with this.

And it is the fact that we need to watch what people do more than they say.

This is what I mean by this.

When what we ended up finding out, out of this was that all of the people, as they came into the Trump administration, they would get new phones.

This is not uncommon.

They get new devices.

Those devices are preset with apps on it.

And one of the preset apps that was not in Trump's first administration but now is in the second is one that was installed by the Biden administration, which is the second Signal app.

Now, I have nothing wrong with Signal.

I use it, by the way.

People use it because it's encrypted.

If you want something that is better, if you're trying to keep listening ears, specifically the government, out from prying people, use Signal for that.

The problem is Signal, they can still track your ip.

There is a better app out there called Session, and Sessions is one that you can't track the ip and it is encrypted with the same encryption from Signal, so you can't, it can't be traced back to you.

So I am moving over to Sessions.

Anyway, that aside, I had a friend.

Asked me just recently.

He wanted to discuss some sensitive matters regarding Pew Pews.

And he, he wanted to know if I would, if I was on Signal.

I said no, I'm afraid of reporters from the Atlantic getting involved in our conversations.

And that's, and that's situation here with the Trump administration.

It was a reporter from the Atlantic.

So I have a question.

So is, is Signal or Sessions a, a free or a paid app?

I think they're both free.

Okay, so if, if it's free, then you're the product.

So what are they getting out of this?

I.

I think I.

Yeah, that becomes the question.

I actually one of our sponsors here, let's Church, the guy who works there, he used to.

He used to work for Signal on the.

The encryption.

So I think.

I think that they have enterprise, at least Signal, I think it hasn't like an enterprise app, if I remember correctly.

John here says it runs on donations.

Ah, okay.

I'm not sure, but he says he's a software engineer, so.

As am I.

Yeah.

And that is my background as well.

So.

But here's.

Here's the reason I brought this up, and it's because if you go back on my Rap Report podcast, there's one I did dealing with the issue of national security.

There was a thing called that Joe Biden put out the national security for countering domestic terrorism.

It was put out in 2021.

And one of the things that they listed that would get you defined as a domestic terrorist is if you use a encrypted means of communication like Signal.

So, in other words, the Biden administration said that using that app would define you as a domestic terrorist, because Christians were trying to use something that was that the government couldn't get in and spy on us.

And yet that very app that would define us as domestic terrorists is what they were installing on all of the phones of everyone in the Biden administration.

So what they do counts more than what they say.

You see, they had no problem with them using it, but they also want to have a law that they can arrest you if you use it, but they won't be arrested.

Right.

Now, to add some irony to that, and those that know politics will get a kick out of this, Hillary Clinton came out of the woodworks over this and decided to put an op ed out, and she ended up arguing that the use of Signal was not secure.

Okay, so for folks who may not.

Thank you, Dan.

Dan gets this joke.

I'm blonde.

It takes me a second.

Yeah.

Okay.

She said that this is putting lives at risk now.

Oh, it's rich.

Thank you.

So dad.

Dad is picking up.

Wipe it with a cloth.

Exactly.

Yes.

So this is coming from Hillary Clinton, who had taken many, many emails off of a.

Being served a warrant.

Yeah, she was.

She put them.

She took classified emails and put them on a personal email server that she was running kind of out of her house, like so.

And by the way, it was unencrypted.

And we know that the Russians had access to it, so tried to destroy them.

Yeah.

And so that.

That was Dan's comment about wiping them, because she tried to wipe the the drive so that no one could know that there was classified information.

So.

So it's just rich that she says, oh, this is not secure.

Well, I got news for you.

Signal being encrypted is more secure than your unencrypted email that the Russians were able to hack into.

And unlike the report of the Atlantic, the Russians never said, hi, we're here.

They just kept taking the information.

And Dan, also, mentally, Hillary Clinton these days is about as relevant as Madonna.

Well, she sees that the Democrats both.

Get on a slow boat and just.

Go, yeah, Dan, you mentioned Benghazi.

I saw someone had screenshot a Twitter thing where Hillary Clinton said, you know, we're.

We're looking for a movie on Netflix or something to watch.

And then someone commented under it, 13 hours.

Which is about Benghazi and Songhazi for folks that don't remember Benghazi because, well, maybe there's Democrats here and they have a short memory span because they just believe whatever the media tells them.

The reason Dan laughed about the lies at at risk is because Benghazi, we ended up losing an ambassador there because of some of the things she had leaked out.

Basically what Benghazi actually was for folks to know Benghazi was a arms deal that the Biden administration had done.

If anyone wants to know why they were so against General Flynn in Trump's first administration, it's because he was the one that revealed the fact that it was a arm.

Arms deal.

And so it wasn't supposed to be that.

And they said, oh, no, it was about this Christian that this Christian pastor who released a movie against the Quran and they were all having an uprising and they.

And then it was revealed, I think that that video came out after Benghazi or something.

So, no, the video.

Hadn't the video been out for like months and months and months and it had like 38 views or something crazy like that.

Yeah.

Azusa, wasn't it one of his movies?

No, it was just some random.

It was just some random dude who had a YouTube video about Muhammad and, you know, they tried to use that as a cover.

Yeah, yeah, it's.

That's right.

So it was something like.

It had very few.

I think you're right.

It had very few views and none of them were outside the US or something.

And so it was like impossible that they had seen.

They hadn't seen it till after the event.

So JW is saying, are you guys going to talk about atheism or anti Semitism?

Yes, we will.

And so that's a Good segue into that.

So, hey, I gotta find a good segue.

It's not a segue.

That's just an abrupt change of direction.

Yeah.

How about.

So, so have you ever seen how Ray Comfort, if you ever watch Ray Comfort, Ray Comfort does great segues?

You know, whatever he said, you're talking about dogs and he wants to talk about, you know, anti Semitism.

So, so speaking about dogs, let's, you know, anti Semitism is a real problem.

That's, that's how Ray does it.

But, you know, having that accent, I think just helps him.

Right.

So, so let, I want to, I wanted to talk there.

I do want to discuss anti Semitism because I think that there has been a, a rise if, in Christian circles of anti Semitism.

Yep.

I think that there's been a, a rise.

You know, it's, it's really in, and I'm going to broad brush this.

So this is not everybody in these circles.

Okay.

I, it's a rise, I think that is coming from covenantal theology and Christian nationalistic circles, but it's not everyone in those circles.

Yeah.

If you're on X, you see it.

Yeah, yeah, see, I'm on X, but I really don't see it because I don't gab.

I, I, I, I, I can't think of the last time I was on gab, but every time I got on gab, it was somebody complaining of, you know, somebody, you know, claiming to be a Christian and, you know, just railing on Jewish folks and, you know, Jews run the world and everything.

I'm just like, what in the world is this?

Yeah, yeah.

And so, you know, one of the things that I think, you know, I, I mean, look, I, I know people are going to criticize me because, and say, well, it's just because I'm Jewish.

I, I, I, it's not, I mean, do I take it kind of personal?

Yeah, I do, because I'm Jewish.

Okay.

But I, I do want to, you know, regardless of that, I, I think as Christians we, you know, I think that we need to be put, having our theological views, but we can't have our theological views and, and abuse them.

Okay.

I, I don't think as someone, if someone holds the Covenant theology, I think that they could still, and this is what we're going to get into.

I think you could, you could hold the Covenant theology and still believe that Israel is a nation.

Right.

And so, but the thing that kind of sparked this was something I put out on, I put this out, let's see, March 27 on Facebook and X, I think, Tom, you respond to this.

There's something you responded to today, or not today, whenever I called you March 27th.

No, no, no, there was something you responded to recently, like this week, that I said, oh yeah, Tom, let's, let's discuss this because, oh yeah, it was something else.

And then I responded to you, but I forget whose post that was to be able to bring that up.

So maybe you could find that one if you remember.

But I posted this, I said, some want to say that Jewish people worship a different God than the Christian God.

Paul disagrees.

He believed they worship the same God in a different manner.

And I quoted Acts 24, 11:22.

So if we look at Acts 24, verse 11:22, it says this since you can take note of the fact that and, and, and this was, I think, Paul speaking before the governor.

Felix.

Felix.

He says, since, since you can take note of the fact that no more than 12 days ago I went up to Jerusalem to worship neither in the temple, nor in the synagogues, nor in the city itself did I find, did, did they find me carrying on a discussion with anyone, causing a riot.

Nor can they prove to you the charges of which they now accuse me.

But, but this I admit to you that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the law that is written in the prophets.

So Paul is saying here that he is, as I read this, he's saying he is part of what they called the Way, a sect of Judaism that believed in following Christ.

And he's not, he's not throwing out Israel.

He's saying he's worshiping, serving the God of our Father.

Okay, so one of the.

Did I just hear you say that Christianity is a sect of Judaism?

It started out that way is what.

Paul is saying is Christianity right now, as we speak it, a sect of Judaism.

Okay.

And this is getting into the, this is getting right to the, the heart of.

And I wish I knew where, where we.

Because it was someone else's post that I commented.

And now I can't remember what I had said there because I got short term memory in a different way.

Right?

I post things and forget about it.

But one of the issues is when we speak about this is when we look at Paul, what was Paul's understanding of the day?

And because there was someone that I said, did the early church worship a triune God?

And they wouldn't answer it.

And, and the reason I was asking, I I think they thought it was a trap and it sort of was because the idea that Trinity wasn't formed for a couple hundred years after Christ's death.

Right.

Except that Paul met Christ.

Yeah.

So they recognize a pretty big revelation, wouldn't you say?

Well, yeah, but see.

Okay, but here's the thing.

So when I, when I became a Christian, I knew nothing of the Trinity.

If you asked me if I worshiped a triune God, I would have said, I don't know what that means, or I would have maybe said no, because I would have thought it means three gods just in an ignorance.

But we can't hold the early church fathers to a position that wasn't defined yet.

Right.

And in fact, I will argue in, when you look at some of early Jewish writings, there is evidence that supports that Jewish believers or Jewish people worshiped a triune God.

And much of what we have as Judaism today is from the Talmud, which is reactionary to Christianity.

And so the question becomes how much of this change we see when we say, well, Jewish people worship a different God.

Is it the Jewish people of the Bible, of the New Testament or of today?

Right.

I think, I think that's a good question.

And I think that that really does boil down to.

It is, is how has God revealed himself in the old covenant, in the covenants of old?

And how has God revealed himself now, now that Christ has come, you know, how has he identified himself in the three persons of the Trinity?

And I think so that's, I think that's the main distinction that we have to look at.

And, and I would argue, I mean, I remember studying through the, the Talmud many, many years ago and, and seeing some of, you know, and trying to, and because of the way I do the study, I always want to do original source.

So I, you know, if someone quotes someone, I try to get back to see if I could find that.

But even when I was being bar mitzvahed in synagogue, I remember references to what, what was basically referred to as like a threefold view of God.

And as, and when I became a Christian and then later learned about the Trinity, I kicked myself for never paying attention to what, what that was.

Because now it's like, oh, I would have loved to have known that in the source that.

But, but I did see some early Jewish documents that, that refer to God as a, as a plurality.

And some seem to reference, you know, a trinity in some way.

So I wonder, and this is something I can't prove, but I wonder if the, if early Judaism had a better Understanding of God in a threefold part, or at least in having God is more than one person though, just like the early church fathers wouldn't have defined it that way just out of ignorance.

I wonder if there was more agreement back then, maybe even in Jesus's day.

Because if you read the Talmud, it is clearly responding to Christianity.

A lot of it is reactionary.

And so I would say the Judaism we have today, Talmudic Judaism, I'm going to agree with you.

They're not worshiping the same God as the God of the Bible.

Okay, so I wanted to make it.

Yeah, I just wanted to read my reply to, to that post.

Okay, good.

That said, the identity of the true God is inseparable from Jesus Christ.

Rejecting Jesus means rejecting the true God and embracing a false one.

Yes, because Jesus says if you reject me, you reject the one who sent me.

Right.

And that's.

And the other thing I wanted, I wanted to kind of touch, touch on it when you asked about, you know, is, is Christianity a sect of Judaism?

I think it's important to Note in Acts 24:14 that what he says here is but this, I confess to you that according to way which they call a sect, I do serve the God of our fathers.

So it was perceived as a sect from the outside.

But I don't think that was Paul's position, if that's what you were.

Well, no, but his position is he's calling it the way.

Right.

And so that is seen as part of Judaism at that time.

Well, okay, so.

But that's the thing though.

I think what he's saying here is that Paul's and I wrote this down.

So I'm going to read it.

So Paul affirms that he worships the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as it has now been revealed to him newly through Christ according to the new covenant.

So God has, has done something.

He's intervened in such a way that now Paul has a better understanding of the triune God that, that God himself came down in, in a vision in and confronted him saying, listen, I am Jesus.

I am the one that you are persecuting and revealed himself as the Messiah.

Through that lens.

Yes.

Yahweh, yes.

Through that lens is if, if we.

Now that he's doing that, I am worshiping the one true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

And through the lens now of Christ, he's saying this is Me now, now that God has revealed this to me.

And I think what he's making, he's actually making a point that you are worshiping the God that the God of old, the God as he has revealed himself in the old covenants is, is.

Has now revealed himself in a different way, a more full way through.

Through the person of Jesus Christ.

Yeah.

And, and so I'm not seeing.

This is the thing.

I'm not going to disagree with that.

Okay.

Right.

And this is, this is why I thought this would be a really good topic for us to discuss because.

And, and, and, and pray we probably will get into more of the differences between Israel and the church because that, that, you know, and, and I know someone's asking, was asking about what's the connection with covenant theology and anti Semitism.

I don't.

There's not a direct, there's not a direct tie there.

And we'll get, we.

Hopefully we'll get into that.

I think there.

It's, it's.

Yeah, I think there's some people who ever since October 7, are so reacting to Israel as a, as a nation that they're confusing Old Testament Israel with, with that.

But, but it's, I mean, you're not going to get it.

You're not going to get the anti.

Semitism, I don't think, within dispensationalism just because of the views they have.

So I, I think the issue is not necessarily the nation in and of itself.

I think what it is is the issue of people saying that Israel are the, that, that, that Jews are the.

Chosen people of God.

Yeah, the people of God or the chosen people who.

So that's the question there.

And I think that, I think in.

It's an extreme.

They take it to an extreme.

Who are the people of God.

Yeah, and that's, that's the question.

I know we're going to get to that later.

Yeah, I think we'll get there.

And.

Because that, that is, that's where that.

So, so, John, we're going to get to that and if not just join us here and ask the question, then we can't avoid it.

So, so the, the reason I thought this would be really helpful and the reason I'm, I'm trying to go back and the reason I put that out there is I want us all to consider like we have now 2000 years of church history.

And you know, Drew, you and I have talked about this before on this show.

Much of our theology has come out of heresy.

I mean, it's, it might.

Correct.

Yeah.

Right.

I mean, it sounds weird, but we should be thankful for heresy in the church because it's, it's in response to Heresy.

That much of our doctrine was.

Was shaped and formed and clarified because the.

The doctrine of the Trinity came out of a guy that tried denying the deity of Christ.

And in that denial, the church had to wrestle with how is it that Jesus is God, the Father is God, the Spirit is God, and there's one God.

And out of that wrestling, out of trying to answer Arius, came the doctrine of the Trinity.

But the mistake we make.

I think many know that the doctrine of the Trinity came out of.

Well, the thing.

Formulation of it.

Yeah, out of that.

Correct.

Good.

Correction.

Thank you.

Yeah.

The formulation of it.

Right.

Obviously, God was always a triune God.

Right?

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, I think even before Nicaea, they were still wrestling because they were wrestling with other heresies of the triune nature of God.

But then when Arius came, he was just saying, no, Jesus is a created being.

He's.

He's.

He's separate from the Father.

He's homoi usias rather than homo.

Correct.

And we do have the scriptures in Colossians 2.

Nine, for in him, the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.

Yeah, right.

Which is what Athanasius used when he.

That very text when he went to Nicaea.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

I was actually asked once because, I mean, I didn't.

I was saved for probably at least three to six years before I knew anything of the Trinity.

I think it was like, six years before I knew anything about the Trinity because I didn't grow up with Christian doctrine.

And so someone once asked me, well, how did you believe that Jesus was God and that he died on the cross?

Cross.

And who.

Like, how.

What were you believing?

God was doing it?

And I'm like, well, he's God.

He could do whatever he wants.

You know, like, that was my thing.

I, Like, I knew Jesus was God, and I didn't really think it through enough to.

To know how to separate the Father, the Son, the Spirit.

I just.

I knew they were God.

I wasn't really dwelling on, like.

Like, I didn't come up with ideas of modalism or things.

I just was like, yeah, they're gonna God.

Okay.

And I just moved on.

Right.

And you know, Drew, you've said this on the show before, that there's a difference between, like, someone that believes in modalism because they've just never been taught the truth versus they understand the Trinity, what it teaches, and their teaching modalism.

Right.

So, TJ Jakes, you've said on the show before that's a problem.

Yeah.

But a guy that you Know is, is just ignorant on it.

Like, like I was.

It'd be a different.

Yeah, he just, he, he, he's trying to figure, he's, he's under learning.

He's trying to understand and he, he hears the analogy of water and he thinks that's a great analogy because he just doesn't know any better.

Right.

And so he doesn't understand modalism until someone comes along and corrects him and says no, that's not how it works.

Yeah.

And I, there's a.

We got Johnny in the back before he comes in.

This may be the same John that put.

Or Johnny that put this in.

But Johnny Rulon says I personally don't see any connection between the modern day Israel and the Old Testament one.

Does that imply theological anti Semitism or does it mean something else?

So as the token Jewish person here, let me answer this.

I don't think it is an implied theological anti Semitism.

I actually would agree with the statement.

All right.

And so I think what we see is.

So let's get a view of the way a lot of people think of Judaism, not non believers.

They think that the Judaism today is the same as the Judaism of the Bible of the Old Testament.

I should say.

Okay, so what you have historically is you have the Old Testament Judaism, the Judaism that we see with the forefathers coming from Abraham and it was more clarified in the covenant with Moses.

Things like this, we have more information, more scripture given and revealed.

And so what we end up seeing though is at the time of the Babylonian captivity there was a major shift in Judaism.

So what you had before that was a temple where you had a theocracy and God was the one that would be on the throne.

And Israel decided to give up a theocracy.

They didn't want God being the king, they wanted a king.

And there started to be a shift there.

But you still had the temple as the center of worship and the Old Testament as the text of God.

But when Israel was in a 70 year Babylonian captivity, what ended up occurring?

God promised that this 70 years would cure them of their idolatry.

And God was right.

To date, Judaism does not fall into idolatry.

Okay.

We don't see them having that idolatry that they used to have.

That captivity took care of it, but it created a different problem.

And the problem that it created is what some call Second Temple Judaism.

I think that's a bad label for it only because I think, think that I prefer the term Rabbinic Judaism because the Second Temple had not been developed, had not been built at the time that this Judaism arose.

So when the Jewish people were in captivity and they were spread out, they started synagogue worship rather than temple worship because the temple was destroyed.

They were now in other countries.

And so you have the rise of rabbis which led to the Pharisees.

And then when they came back to the land and needed Levites, that gave rise to the Sadducees.

And so Rabbinic Judaism is the legalistic Judaism that we see today of doing Torah, obeying the law versus repentance, which we would see in Leviticus.

So the idea of the gospel is way back.

You can see clearly in Leviticus.

I know you don't like reading that book, but anyone listening just go search my name in Leviticus.

There's a couple of times where I've taught through it.

I say that by the time I'm done with that talk, you'll love Leviticus.

I do a whole book in one hour.

But, but the gospel is there in.

Leviticus and yeah, through it, it's not bad.

I sat through it on the front row.

You know.

That is true.

I think that's, I think that's where we met.

And so, so the point being is that in that captivity, Judaism went from a God centric religion to a man made religion, but they still had the Bible.

Okay, that was still the text.

So much like I would say, and this is going to be a question I'm going to ask for Drew and Tom because I'm curious this, but I'm going to give you time to think about it.

But when I look at what Aaron did there when he was made the golden calf, he described that calf as the God that brought us out of Israel.

It sounds like he's worshiping the true God, but in the wrong manner.

Because God isn't to be worshiped as a calf.

And nowhere that I can recall was Aaron condemned for the worship of the wrong God.

He was condemned for the manner.

And so I kind of wonder, first century, not today, first century was that what was going on, that the Judaism had a view of the right God but in the wrong manner.

Now, later on in history, after Christ, as I mentioned already, there became the writing of the Talmud and what the Talmud is.

So there's four major authorities now in Judaism today.

You have the Tanakh, which is what we would call the Old Testament.

You had the midrash, you have the Mishnah.

And so what you have is the midrash is basically what they claim is like, okay, so you had Moses there and he received not just the written law, but then oral law.

And so they wrote the oral law down.

So you have that, and so you have a commentary on the written law, but then with the, the Talmud is, is supposedly a commentary on the oral law.

Okay, well, no one was alive to know if that was actually what was said in the oral law.

Right.

But much of the Judaism today is based off the Talmud, which is reactionary to Christ.

That's the one that clearly states that God is one person.

Right.

That they would refer to things that way.

We would agree God is one God.

Right.

But I think that when the Talmud started being written, much of that is reactionary to Christianity.

And that schism now changed because now they don't, they're not worshiping the God of the Bible, they're worshipping the God of the Talmud.

So that is, that's the framework in which I view this and I look at it historically.

Historically to say what were people viewing at these different time periods?

We can't just like we can't hold the early church fathers to a clear definition of the Trinity when it hadn't been defined yet.

And they had vague ideas of it and could refer to it, but they wouldn't refer to it the way we did.

But they were, they were laying down a foundation.

They were laying down as God has revealed themselves, that through the teaching they applied apostles and the prophets.

I mean, even Jesus said himself that they spoke of me, that the past scriptures spoke of him.

So they were teaching, so God was in the middle.

In that transition, in that transition period of time, God re had revealed himself in a special way.

I mean, think about that.

The resurrection of Jesus Christ comes.

You know, the Holy Spirit is now indwelling all those who place their faith in him.

This is something brand new that, that we must hold to.

It's, it's, it's not like the way it was in, in the day.

And I would, even so I would make the argument more so that even in the time of Paul is the same as today as, as they were since the time of the resurrection of Christ.

Well, now that we have the Holy Spirit.

Yeah, as I'm thinking about what Andrew's saying, you know, first century Jews versus today, the manner versus, you know, idolatry.

The Old Testament was what the apostles were using to reveal Christ to non believers.

And then not only that, you had the eyewitnesses, of course, who saw the resurrected Christ, who saw Christ's fulfillment of prophecies.

And yet they were still seeking to put to death Christians Those who had converted from Judaism to Christianity, which means they were still rejecting Christ as the Messiah, which the Old Testament pointed to.

So if Christ is still the foundation of what the Old Testament points to, that this is going to be the Savior and Christ comes and he fulfills it and he is the Savior and then he's taught as the Savior.

And then to still reject that is to reject Christ and to still reject the God of Scripture.

And I would even go on as far as to Andrew's point too, because when you hear John the Baptist preach, we have more now, right?

That canon is closed right now.

Even when who saw Jesus face to face, we have more information now than they had at the time.

To Andrew's point there.

Yeah, but I don't think that that's an excuse to say, you know, and I think, Andrew, you made the point that now God is revealed, now Christ has come.

So this is the lens by which we must view God as he has revealed himself since the, since the time of Christ.

But I think we would all agree that even in the Old Testament, well, to use Paul's language, not all Israel was Israel, right?

I mean, you had a spiritual Israel, those.

And you had a n.

National Israel.

You had those that were all.

All of the Jewish people would be the part of the nation of Israel.

They'd be Israelites.

But just because they're Israelites, they wanted that.

Andrew, you just communicated those very words through the lens of the New Testament, correct?

Yeah, well, I use the language of the New Testament, but we would, we would, we would see.

So.

So the fact, I mean, this is one of the thing.

One of the mistakes I think people make is people think that all Jewish people in the Old Testament were saved.

I don't think that's true.

No, it's not.

What.

And I think Paul makes it clear in the New Testament he reveals more.

But I think that we have to recognize that there were plenty of people that were called Israel that were not saved.

Just like we would refer to the church, local, visible church.

There's plenty of people in the church, and I'm air quoting right.

That are not.

They weren't.

They're not saved.

They attend every week all their life maybe, but they're not part of the body of Christ.

Correct.

And we, we have to recognize that Israel's the same way.

So.

And yes and no.

So yes.

In, in the fact that the covenant people of God in the Old Testament, in the Mosaic covenant, was a mixed group.

There were some believing and there was some unbelieving.

But the people in the New Covenant, those believing.

And I know what you're saying about the visible and invisible, but those, and this is why we baptize, we baptize upon professional faith, you know.

But, but those people who are in the New Covenant, in, who are bound, who are sealed in the covenant of grace are those who have, who are in Christ.

It's not a mixed.

All those who are in the covenant of grace are, are truly regenerate.

We, we would.

You would agree with that if you, if, if.

And well, I wouldn't hold to covenant grace the way you would.

But, but I'll say this with a view of the covenant of grace, though.

Where we would agree is the covenant.

In a covenant theology, covenant grace is back with Adam and Eve.

So for, for any dispensationalists that want to say, oh, that started with the church.

No, it didn't.

Not in covenant theology.

It starts with Adam and Eve.

Yeah.

So I wouldn't hold that.

That's Presbyterian Covenant theology.

I'm, I'm 1689 federalism.

So all of the covenants of old, I would say, are covenants of works.

There's one covenant of grace, and that is the New Covenant.

Yeah.

Okay, so Presbyterian covenantalism, then is if you want to make that.

And since I, I got a debate, I got a debate coming up, I'm going to mention in a little bit of.

That's coming up on, you know, covenant theology versus dispensationalism.

But coming up next week, I'll mention in a bit the, the difference though is that what we end up seeing is the, with the, even if you have the Presbyterian view of covenant of grace, they would also hold that there, there's people that are, I mean, we, we would say whether they're in the nation of Israel or the church, you have people who are part of the, that covenant.

Right.

So you have Israel.

Not all Israel is saved.

Not all the church is saved, depending how you define these things.

Right.

That's why, that's why the, you know, in the, in the Middle Ages, they defined the visible, invisible church because they were trying to make a separation between the body of believers and those that gather.

And that's an important thing.

When you're kind of forced to gather.

Right.

When it's a Roman Empire, a Christian nation where everyone's forced to worship, then you don't know who's really saved or not.

Right.

And that's why they came up with that.

And that's why I see the similarity there with a visible, invisible Israel.

I use that language just to, to make it clear what we're saying.

Right?

I, I definitely, I definitely see the continuity.

And you're 100, right?

If, if you are, if you.

Hold on, hold on, hold on.

Let's, let's get you say that again.

I need that quote.

You are 100, right?

So if, if you hold to Presbyterian Covenant theology and you hold that, that, that both, both, it is still a mixed group of people in the covenant of grace, in the New Covenant, then yes, you should absolutely baptize babies 100% if you're going to be.

Hold to that con.

If you're going to be consistent, you should baptize babies if you still hold to that.

But, but as, as a Reformed Baptist, we would say so.

I would go to Romans, chapter eight, and it says, however, you are not in the flesh but of the Spirit, if in the Spirit of God dwells in you.

But if anyone does not have the spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

That's why on that verse alone, that is right, right there, the distinction between the, between all those who are in the New Covenant are regenerate.

These.

That's why we baptize upon profession of faith that, that we are.

We are a credible profession of faith, that we have faith in Christ.

These are the people that are in the New Covenant.

So that, that would be 16.

That would be a 1689 federalism view.

So you and is just.

I want to better understand your view.

So you would, you would say that the covenant of grace started with Christ or in the New Testament.

Okay, all right, that's fine.

Not that there wasn't grace in the Old, Old covenants, but it would be that everybody.

So Abraham believed in God, but it was on debit.

It was on credit, basically.

You wouldn't, you wouldn't believe that.

You wouldn't believe Abraham was saved by works.

You'd believe Abraham was saved by grace.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This is one of the arguments.

But by virtue, but by virtue of the covenant of grace, which is in the New Covenant, not, not under, not under the covenant.

Abraham.

This is one of the bad arguments I've heard dispensationalists make against covenant theology, that covenant theology believes in works in the Old Testament and grace in the New, and that's not what they believe.

So just for the record.

All right, let me bring, let me bring Johnny in because he's been backstage here.

Johnny, welcome to the show.

Hey, guys.

Thank you for having me.

Me?

Yeah.

Really engaging discussion, especially the fact that.

Tom said That I was correct on something because I.

I got to clip that because that's never going to be heard again in history.

Oh, it'll.

It's going to be heard because Andrew's going to play it.

Yeah, he's gonna.

He's gonna sample it.

It's gonna become part of the show intro from here.

I gotta remember to get that.

Wait, wait, wait.

Tom.

Say that again.

Andrew was.

Andrew.

Andrew was right.

Somebody please make that into one of those memes.

Get Tom going.

Andrew's right.

You know, Tom's usually the one to make those kind of meme type things, but, you know, I don't know he's gonna do that one.

I'll do one just for you, Andrew.

Because I was right.

Go, go.

Go ahead, Johnny.

How.

What you got for us tonight?

Yeah, I've actually been following you, Andrew, since probably the presuppositional side.

10 days.

That's a bad word over here.

But yeah, I've been following you for a long time.

Did a lot of apologetics at University of Florida.

Evangeline Apologetics opener preached was discipled by Jews natively an Indian.

So very friendly to the nation of Israel.

We consider them as brothers.

We're very close in our independence and things like that.

So I have nothing against the Jews.

Like I said, I was discipled by Messianic Jews.

All my people in my favorites list are all Jews who are converted, obviously under Christ.

There.

There's a couple of points.

I myself used to be very dispensational.

No longer hold to something as something like a strong dispensationalism, although I have my discussions with them all the time.

Don't worry.

In heaven.

In heaven you'll.

You'll return to it, but it's okay.

Oh, yeah, right.

I see the beatific vision.

And there's.

There's two things that just concerns me about theological discussions about Israel.

One, it becomes very fast.

It becomes something about anti Semitism without being very clear on what exactly constitutes the anti Semitism.

I heard Covenant theology can lead to anti Semitism or some of their theological construct can lead to antisemitism, which I personally don't see among people that I have discussions with.

I can't address Christian nationalism because again, I don't, you know, affirm something like that.

And I do want to have.

I want to ask some questions about disposition that I see problematic.

But first of all about the anti Semitism.

Just kind of looping back to that is.

What exactly about Covenant theology do you feel like leads to anti Semitism like can you be clear about what that actually is?

Yeah, let me.

And I don't know if this is, this may be you that put this comment out, but if it's not, then is it you?

Yeah, it is.

Okay, so you had said earlier and we marked it as I don't see the connection between covenant theology and anti Semitism.

So let me clarify.

I wasn't saying there is a connection there.

What I'm saying is what I'm seeing on social media within, specifically the covenantal Christian national, within some of those circles, there is a rise of anti Semitism.

And what I was saying is you wouldn't see it in dispensationalism because of their view of the church in Israel.

Where I think what I've noticed.

John, is it John or Johnny?

Sorry, Johnny.

Johnny.

So ever since October 7th, which was when Israel, those in Gaza, Hamas had attacked Israel, I noticed within Christian circles kind of an anti Israel stance, like anti nation of Israel.

And so where I think that I think it was coming from is there are people that, from a theological point, whether I agree with, you know, I don't agree with covenant theology completely, but I see where they're coming from with it.

You know, the point they were trying to make was to distinguish in their view of the nation of Israel that exists today as, and what would be God's covenant people.

And they were saying, well, you know, God's people are not Israel.

Okay.

But then people saying, well, Israel.

So when they're mentioning Israel, it's like, well, you're saying God's chosen people, God's covenant people.

They're not, you know, and I think there was a reaction from many to that that you wouldn't have within dispensationalism, but you could have within covenant theology.

And though I think, and this is why I thought this would be a really healthy discussion for us to have because of the fact that there is, we got it.

When we say Israel, we have to say, we have to ask the question what are we talking about?

Just like when we say the church, what are we talking about those body of believers or the people that gather together every Sunday?

Well, they're not all saved.

I'm sure in all of our churches there's a, there's a bunch of people that go to church with us that aren't Christian.

Can I, can I end?

I, I, maybe this might make it a little bit.

He was going to say can he interject?

But he already did.

Yeah.

Why ask if you already did it?

I apologize for Talking, I really don't mean to, but so there are people out there and matter of fact, I've seen some dispensationalists that have the Israelite flag, you know, on their Facebook posts and stuff like that.

And they'll post the flag.

And it's not because they're simply opposing the, the atrocity of this happening over in Israel or the war in and of itself.

They're posting that flag because their theological convictions that they still believe that Israel themselves, the nation, are the people of God.

That's why they're posting that.

And so then, so that's why those are the people that would not hold to that position where somebody who holds the Covenant theology would not post that flag.

And.

But they're taking a very extreme view, you know, and I think it's.

I think it's against those people who are posting those flags because of their theological position.

But they take it too far, especially if they're being, I mean, people, we all need the gospel.

Can I offer a bit of gentle clarity and pushback, let's say, just being.

Going on the extreme, because I like to reason from the extreme all the way down inward.

Let's say I'm an anti Zionist.

Does that make me an anti Semite in your mind?

In minor times?

Because this is a political theological discussion, let's say.

I say so.

I don't see 1948 as a realistic moral thing, but let's just say I hold that.

I don't hold that.

But I'm just saying, let's say I hold that.

Does that make me anti Semite?

So you use two different terms.

Right.

Anti Semitism, anti Zionist Zionism.

Right.

And so we would first have to define the terms.

Right.

So anti Semitism would be basically a hatred for the Jewish people.

Right.

So it would be where, if you want to eliminate the Jewish people, you want to, you want to wipe them off the face of the earth, you know, because they're Jewish.

Right.

That would be anti Semitism, Zionism as we know it today.

This is different than some Zionism that would be earlier.

Sure.

Zionism today is, as you mentioned, 1948.

It's tied to the, you know, it's going to be tied to the forming of Israel as a state.

Okay.

And going and going back to the positive laws that included with the covenant.

Okay.

Of Moses.

Well, but they don't, they don't do that.

Right.

I mean, a lot of Zionism is going back to everything, you know, the diet.

They're going, well, just Orthodox Judaism.

But they don't.

They're not in power in Israel.

Right.

But, but yeah, they, they would, they would love to see that, but they practice that.

They would love to see a temple.

So I guess the question is, can you be, can you be anti Zionist without being.

And not anti Semitic?

I think so.

I haven't thought it.

I haven't thought it through, by the way.

All my questions are about clarity.

It's not about disagreement.

It's about just me trying to understand.

When I say the rise of anti Semitism.

And I saw Dr.

White do a thing about that.

He's doing that.

I'm just being very clear because I'm seeing a lot of people, especially in my church, struggle with the question.

I was stopped in front of my church and asked for an hour and a half about, what do you think about Israel?

And so I see the posts of there's a rise in anti Semitism by people, and I just want to be clear about what people mean by that.

So, okay, so you could be anti Zionist technically, but not still be anti Semite.

Would you say that someone holds a replacement theology?

Let's say the church has completely replaced Israel or something like that.

Is that anti Semitic in your mind?

No, I, I, first off, I, I don't think many people hold to replacement theology.

It is a.

I, Let me put it this way, and I'm going to say this, and I'm going to.

I know Dan's going to have to, to drop off, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna, you know, let him get a word in.

But, you know, or, you know, he may, I think he's got some speaking events to promote.

But, but I would say this is.

I think that that is the boogeyman of dispensationalism.

Okay, I'm saying this as a dispensationalist, and I'm gonna.

I think that as someone who holds the position, it's better for me to point out the bad arguments from my own side.

But, you know, MacArthur refers to this.

And many years ago, when MacArthur was after Shepherd's conference, MacArthur referred to Covenant Theology as replacement theology.

And, you know, a friend of mine, Emilio Ramos, did an immediate video reaction to it, and I had him on the show so we could talk about it in more detail.

And he thanked me off air for the fact that I said, you know, I don't think that it's fair to call it replacement theology.

It's not.

Now, maybe there are some that do hold to that.

But to your specific question, Johnny, I think you can hold to what a replacement theology would be because that's a theological position.

That's not saying that you want to wipe Jewish people off the face of the map.

Right?

You don't want to.

It's nothing.

You can hold, hold to that theological position without having any ill will towards Jewish people.

So Dan, I know you got it.

You got to get going top of the hour.

So any, any comments you have or.

I know for folks that I, I didn't do a good job in introducing folks as we all came in, but Dan is one of the speakers at Striving for Eternity and so he.

If you need someone that's, you know, you're going to look up to, to speak.

But, and, and for Johnny, you know, Dan is seven foot tall, so that's.

That'S the under six foot.

So I look up to everybody.

So.

But yeah, so Dan's.

If folks want to have Dan come to your church, some of the topics he does very well is dealing in areas of creation science, presuppositional apologetics.

If you really want to make everybody in the audience cry, ask him to do his talk on abortion.

It is outstanding.

Just saying.

But if you want him to come speak, just go to strivingforternity.org and you can, you can have invite him as a speaker.

So Dan, I'll give you a word before you go.

Yeah, thanks.

It's.

I'm hoping to catch up after, after, after I get done eating.

Either I'll pop back in or I'll have to just watch the, the rest of the live stream.

But it's a fascinating conversation.

I'm.

And I've, I've often wondered about these, about these questions about, you know, replacement theology and all that stuff.

So.

Interesting conversation.

Yeah, it is.

Just.

Sorry I don't have more to add.

Do you have a.

Very nice meeting you, man.

Nice to meet you.

I think you have a speaking event coming up though, right?

No, not for a couple months.

I'm actually working on a, on a, on some classroom, some classroom instruction that I have to provide.

I have to do two hours on Roman Catholicism and then go talk to a Roman Catholic priest with a group of students.

And then I also have to do an hour on, on church denominations.

So it's for, it's for, it's for the internship for Tiny Heartbeat Ministries.

And so they've asked me to come in and teach a few, teach a few classes for their internship.

And so, you know, I'm.

Well, I'm outside of my wheelhouse yet again.

Yet again.

Hey, a great resource.

A great resource for that would be a book called what Do They Believe?

It's.

It's right here.

So.

I know you do, but, you know, I remember I had.

I had two.

I had these.

Actually, no, it was like, three Catholic kids that came to my house one time many, many years ago.

They were Catholic missionaries, and they knocked on my door and they invited me to the Catholic church where they were going to do the seven stages of the Cross.

And I still remember I went through.

Did the whole thing.

I'm sitting in the Catholic Church.

I got like 40 teenagers, all Roman Catholic, asking me, peppering me with questions, and there's three priests that are, like, over on the side, just watching, and they're in the hover position.

And.

And so this one kid, you know, I said.

I said to this one kid, I said, you know, just help me understand, son.

You.

You believe that Mary had to be sinless to give birth to a sinless being?

Is that correct?

And he goes, yeah.

I said, so how did Mary give.

How did Mary's mother give birth to her?

I mean, if there had to be an immaculate conception, why wouldn't it have been with God being born?

Why would it have to be with his mother?

And what.

Exactly.

And one of the kids goes, I was always wondering that.

And all the kids got nervous, like, go ask the priest.

Go ask the priest.

And so he walks over to the priest, and he.

As he walks back, the.

The three priests left.

They left.

And he comes back, says, what did the priest say?

They.

They said they don't know.

Like, so the priest left me there for, like, another hour with these kids.

And I was like, oh.

Like, I was.

At first, I was thinking, the priests are calling the cops.

Like, they want me removed.

No, they just left.

They couldn't answer the question.

They decided to leave.

They're calling the bishop.

Oh, it was.

It was great.

So, yeah, I shared the gospel with them.

Yeah.

So you're about to get the Pope on the line.

Yeah.

10 minutes.

All right, guys, I got a jet.

All right.

Talk to you later.

Thanks, Dan.

So.

So let me.

Let me promote a couple things while we are, you know, while we're here on a little bit of break.

Let me just share, if I could pull this up.

I do have a conference I want to promote if.

If you guys want to check out, is a conference that's going to be in New Jersey.

I know you're asking yourself, why in the world would anyone want to come to New Jersey?

Good, Good point.

But it's called the Truth Conference.

And you can, this is.

The speakers are going to be.

If we go down here, we have, it's going to start on, on, on Friday night.

This is what may 2nd, I think it's in 28 days.

But it starts off with John Harris from Conversations that Matter.

And then Craig Chambers, who I have not met him Saturday morning will be Seth Buckley.

Now what's interesting with this is that you see if you can read, it's really small font, but it says at 8 o'clock is going to be a strategic meeting.

I'm going to explain that in a minute.

8:00 or 9:00 in the morning is, is Seth buckley.

Then at 10am There is a break from 10am to 7pm.

I will be speaking at 7pm Then John Harris will close us out at 8pm and so this is a very different structure for a conference.

And what, what they're doing with this conference conference is to basically really promote the idea of getting together.

This is a bunch of guys who have been kicked out of their denominations because they were against social justice.

And because of that, their, their denominations booted them.

And so their, the strategic meeting is trying to figure out how to create a loose affiliated network of churches that stand up against social justice.

So if that's something that interests you, striving for eternity.org truth conference25 is how you register striving for eternity.org truth conference 25.

And so that is a conference to be looking forward to.

One other thing I mentioned it earlier is next week I will be doing a debate and I love this topic.

I mentioned this topic to Tom before we went live and Tom gave me this cringe because even though he's a Covenant theologian, well, he saw this topic and was like ew.

So the topic of debate is, see, I can't do that because it covers the thing.

So the topic of debate is the question is Covenant theology more faithful to a literal sense of scripture than dispensationalism?

I'll be debating Joseph Wiseman.

Joe Joseph has wanted this debate for a long time.

We are, he tried to get it set up with we're going to do it.

Iron sharpens iron.

We still may do that.

We just never got back to, to Chris about that.

But this is, this debate is going to be on the Providence Perspective with reformed recan YouTube channel.

So that is how to find it.

Just, just probably look for Providence Perspective.

That's the name of his podcast.

And so this debate is going to be on April 8th at 8pm so if you want to check that out and, and you know, watch me destroy covenant theology.

No, I'm kidding guys, I'm kidding there.

You're gonna get all upset with me.

But yeah, no, I do want to encourage you guys to check that out.

You can go, and you can go to that link now even and get notified when the debate goes live.

So that is some stuff for you.

So I am, I am looking forward to that debate.

It should be, it should be a lot of fun.

One of the things I appreciated with it, Joseph agreed.

I always like to do this, but very few people are willing.

But this is the difference of someone that's looking to communicate things versus win a debate.

Joseph was willing to exchange opening statements with me.

So we've both exchanged opening statements.

I got nervous when he read my opening statement, said I got to make major changes to my statement.

I'm like, oh, now you're gonna do it?

But it does help because now both of us can be better prepared for rebuttal.

You know, I got a bunch of notes I gotta study because like, you know, he, he gets, he gets into some things in Jeremiah.

Well, I wouldn't be prepared to rebuttal that live hearing it the first time.

So, you know, I'm always glad when someone's willing to do that.

It shows that someone is willing to, to have the discussion and not just debate to win.

And it's going to make a bit of a different debate, I think a better one.

So encourage you guys to, to be checking that out now.

Not as many singers though, you know.

Oh no, you could still have zingers.

Watch Matt Slick and I debate, we, we debate where there's plenty of zingers.

Hey, I, you know, I'm actually sending people to the stream right now.

All my Jewish friends are trying.

Okay, I'm sending them to the stream.

Good, good.

I think, by the way, just as a side note of encouragement, I noticed that you do a lot of debates and things like that here in Florida.

The biggest thing on the rise is undoubtedly Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism.

We have.

It's not, it's not just there, my friend.

It is.

Right, right.

Yeah.

And young men in droves, in fact, last Sunday for three hours.

So I, we do an apologetics at my church, but I'd actually love to have you over sometime.

And we do three hours a Saturday, once a month, something like that.

And we cover Roman Catholicism, things like that.

Few young men converted over to Rome and Orthodoxy.

And last Sunday actually was talking to someone who Was.

Had a son who was converting, or it's all the young men who are just flooding into that.

So always been a dry spot for Christians to go in, but it's something that's really needed right now, you know, especially people who study church history and things like that.

My theory, I mean, mat slick and I've been discussing this because we've been noticing a rise of Catholicism and ether and Orthodoxy.

So why our theory, just a theory.

We can't prove it, but it's, I think what it is.

I think it's a political statement.

I think that you've had so much of a removal of God from the culture after, After Covid and all this, people saw that there was no.

Like with the transgenderism and all this stuff.

People are getting sick of it, but they're realizing they have no standard of morale to base their beliefs on.

And so you're seeing guys like Michael Knowles, Matt Walsh that are becoming very prominent and they're rooting their morality in their Roman Catholicism.

But Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, it gives you the veneer of spirituality, of Christianity without the reality.

And I think, I think that's what they're.

They're attracted to.

They want something to base their morals in, but they don't want the real thing.

Yeah, you.

You look at the liturgy, you look at the high view of God, you look at all the bells and whistles and all that, you know, the incense and the smoke.

Oh, this is, this is some religious stuff.

I want to be a part of this.

High view, star off.

High view of church.

High view of being a part of something big.

You know, this is something tangible than they can.

That they can see.

And it's, it's phariseeism, you know, it's.

It's self righteousness.

It's all, it's all the substance.

The object of our faith is totally misplaced.

Correct?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hey, let me, let me do a, an ad for a commercial, but I gotta do this.

Tom, I don't know if it's you or Drew that started this, but, but Tom's.

Tom's wife posted this.

Debbie says are you doing the cold plunge?

Andrew?

You know, Debbie, I am so thankful that you would ask that question because I want to let folks know about a new sponsor here at Apologetics Live, and It is called Plunge.

Plunge.com drew 3 8:8817 yeah, I couldn't, I didn't have any control over the, the thing they, the title they gave me.

I'll probably create a, a better link.

I'LL forward a link from Striving Fraternity.

But plunges is.

I don't do cold plunges.

What are you talking about?

You should though.

So if you want to get it, folks, I'm serious.

Like, you know, we love our coffee.

Squirrely Joe's coffee.

There we go.

Which you can, you can get your coffee from.

If you want from with us.

Just go to striving fraternity.org Coffee by.

By the way, my wife was commenting, if you look at the coffees behind me here from Scrolly Joe's, she noticed one's missing.

I have, well, a couple missing.

She noticed I have integrity and she noticed I had wisdom and honor and kindness and, and respect.

You know what I'm missing?

Compassion.

She realized I have no compassion.

Oh boy.

Yeah.

She also said I had no honesty, which I explained to her honesty is decaf and I just don't do that.

That's not honest for my coffee.

So if, if you need to get up in the morning, you need a good wake me up, go to strivingforattorney.org Coffee to get some coffee.

But if you, but you know, I will say I enjoy my coffee, but I enjoy the taste of my Squirrelly Joe's coffee.

If I want to be fully alert all day, I get into my cold plunge.

I know I hate the cold as much as Tom, maybe even more.

But, but I will, I will say, you know, it has been, it's, it's, it's like the one thing I look forward to all day until I have to get into that cold water.

But it, it wakes me up.

I am alert.

It's great for the body, helps create more mitochondria in the cells which helps create brown fat.

Helps to reduce insulin resistance, which is the major issue that so many of us have with our health is insulin resistance because the food we eat.

And so by one of the things to benefit that benefits it is cold plunge.

Now cold shock therapy.

It creates those cold shock proteins.

Help out with a whole lot of things.

Helps with your, with your brain function.

Things like this will, you know, it is a great thing to do if you want to do it.

I, I know others who have already asked, hey, what is the cold plunge you use?

So I reached out to Plunge and got a affiliate link.

So it's plunge.com drew 38817 is the link and I'll probably have a better link.

I'll create one from a forward link from Striving Fraternity.

But they are a new sponsor.

So if you want, want to dare Tom, if you're gonna dare to get into a cold plunge, check out Plunge.

You know, you might prefer they also have saunas.

So, you know, you in the.

In.

Yeah, in Texas, that's like just walking outside.

But.

But in the summer.

It was 93 today.

Yeah.

So.

So I do I.

You can go to Plunge, check them out.

And.

And that is affiliate link that they have right with us, so we would greatly appreciate it.

You know, they are.

They're not cheap.

The reason I got the plunge over some of the others is because I wanted something where I wasn't having to always change the water.

I wanted to keep it cold, but get something that would be really good at filtering the water.

And so that's really what you're paying for is the chiller.

Or you just get a tub of ice and just keep filling ice in.

But I didn't want to do that.

What do they run?

I'm just curious.

They can run anywhere from like a thousand to five thousand for the.

The chiller and.

And plunge itself.

I mean, you can buy a plunge.

I got the one that I got for Caleb Gordon.

I bought that on Amazon.

I think it was like 60 bucks.

But there's no chiller on that.

The chiller is the expensive thing.

And so.

But some of these have like, a more rugged.

Like, mine's an inflatable.

It's.

It's a cheapie.

Okay.

But you get the ones that are ceramic.

Those are.

I mean, the ceramic plunges are like, I think a grand just for that.

And then the chiller's a couple grand on top, you know, so it.

It can be expensive.

Depends how high you want to go.

But I say, hey, just start in your bathtub and just try it out.

Keep it at 50 degrees.

Start there, stay in there for three minutes.

That's all.

Try it out.

Do that for a couple weeks.

River down the stream down the street for Guadalupe is not too far away from us.

But see, you can't control the temperature that way.

That's the whole thing.

Yeah, it's okay.

At 97 degrees, he knows that that water's warm.

That's right.

Okay, so.

So let.

Let's.

Let's talk a bit about, you know, the issue that we have with the.

So I.

I got.

I should thank Debbie again for.

That was a great segue.

I was going to segue earlier, and I didn't because Johnny asked the question, and I'm glad I waited.

So thanks, Johnny.

You.

You made it for a great segue.

You know, Mike asked this question.

He Says some people say Jews.

And I'm going to stop right there.

Just so you know, just as some of, of those in the audience.

Yeah.

We'd call gentile.

Right.

Because you're not Jewish.

You may not realize the term Jew to, to certain Jewish people is offensive.

Just so you know, my generation growing up after the Holocaust, the Holocaust, you know, where everyone was referred to as a Jew, it became a derogatory term.

And so there are many that get offended by the term.

Just so you guys know, not, you know, like you, if you don't want to be offensive.

I, that's why I use the term Jewish.

You'll hear me say, say that.

So some people say that, that Jews in Israel today have no connection to the Jews of 2000 years ago.

In other words, they're not really Jews.

What?

I, I, I don't know, Mike.

And, and you could respond if you're thinking of.

I know.

Can I maybe also t on to that a little bit?

Yeah, if I could.

So I think there's two lines of thinking, which is one, just like how you might criticize something like apostolic succession, that there's hard things to trace with continuity.

The Jewish people have just been dispersed all over the world and things like that.

So it is hard to even track some aspects of jewel though there are real Jews.

I'm not disputing that fact.

I'm just saying there's more people calling themselves a Jew than are probably.

But the big thing is.

Well, you mean like every Mormon.

Because every Mormon is like, I'm, like I'm 2% Jewish.

Yeah, yeah.

Black Hebrew, Israelites.

There's another good one.

But the thing is, I think what I think as a Christian gentile, right here is the Jews are chosen people.

So when we talk about the modern day, 2000 years later Jew, are we talking about the same Jewish people that are in the Old Testament or we're talking about something very, very different?

I would probably err on something very, not very different, but slightly different.

But that's probably something more I would probably tack on to that, you know.

Well, and I think that gets to what Tom was saying kind of earlier.

Right.

So instead of speaking for you, I don't know if you want to tackle that a bit more.

Yeah.

So are we talking strictly ethnicity?

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's the question.

Or are we talking about who are the people of God?

I think those are two different questions.

Exactly, exactly.

Because you, this is what you were bringing up earlier with the people of God, the, the chosen people, and So I think one of the things you have to recognize is, and, and I think, I think, I don't know if Mike was getting the comments from Joel Webbing, but, and I don't follow Joel Webbing, just for the record.

I, I, I, I am, I may, I know there's a brouhaha about Joel Webbin recently and a church putting a letter out.

There's a lot of brouhaha about Joel Webbing.

Yeah, I though I don't agree with Joel Webbing.

I am tempted.

I'm just going to say this now and you know, Tom, you know, I was going to talk to you privately, but I'll just tell you right now, I am tempted that one of these days when we don't have a, a guest on, which might be next week.

But I, I actually was thinking about, Someone made me go through the articles because they wanted, they want to say, oh, see, this proves that Joel Webbin is not qualified for ministry.

He's a heretic.

I read the article, the letter from the church, I read the letter from Joe Webbin and I, I got to be honest with you, I, I don't agree with Joe Webbing, but I think when I read those documents, I went, I think Joe Webbin's in the right on that.

And I know that's not a popular.

Position stuff that has come out since then, and one is just fact that he blatantly lied about things like he said he wasn't ordained in the vineyard, that they didn't ordain people, but then come to find out he was one of the youngest ordained vineyard pastors in the Vineyard Church.

And so I mean, he just flat out lied about that, you know.

Well, see, I, I, and that's where I'm, I gotta see the timeline with some of that stuff.

But we, so we may do a show on that.

So, so Drew, maybe, maybe next week we could, we could discuss whether.

Yeah, sure, we'll do that.

Personally, I'm not a Joel Webbing fan.

I think he, he is disqualified.

Before this, I thought that before all of this other stuff came out just from seeing his behavior on Twitter, that's what kind of led me into that way.

And see, I think that's the issue.

A lot, A lot of people just think he's wrong.

And so they want to believe that this is, and, and so, but so we always got to be careful.

And that's why there's things I would.

Even agree with Joel Webbing on, but I can't follow him because of his behavior and how I see him act.

And I brought him up because of the fact that from what I understand, I don't know this directly, but I've been asked so many times about his views that I'm believing this is what everyone says he's believing that he doesn't believe there's, that there's, that Jewish people exist today.

And I think, I like, I want to say what he's referring to is as you know, Tom referred to it.

Yeah.

That Israel as God's chosen people today or his, the people of God today versus ethnic Jewish people.

Because I mean, hi, I'm here.

I, I exist.

Right.

So.

Yeah.

So there are people who, who believe that since the records were destroyed in 8770 that there, that there's no way to be able to trace any ethnicity of a Jew.

And, and, but, but you guys are the reason why there's a problem with everything that's going on with the world too.

So.

Yeah, well, I think it doesn't, it's totally inconsistent.

What?

It doesn't make any sense at all.

So we had, we had this discussion and I gave you the answer.

Right.

Because Haps, Haps had me on his program to ask how you know, how could you know all you do you exist.

You all went out in 70 A.D.

and, and your co host on Open Air theology said but wait, they're in control of everything.

And that's why I said, well see the thing is we went out of existence in 70 A.D.

because that's when we developed the time machine and we all went into the future so that we could figure out how to control everything.

See, that's how we control it.

We have the time machine to go back and forth.

Yeah.

See, we could come up with answers.

But, but someone did ask that question.

So let me bring this up.

JW says how do they prove that they're genetic Jews?

Anyone can convert to Judaism, whatever it is, there has to be some genetic Jews left, I'm sure from the twelve tribes.

Scripture says a, A Jew is one inwardly.

So a lot here to, to, to address.

So how.

But it's a good question.

How do people know that they're Jewish?

How, how do they know they're an Israelite?

You know, one of the things, we live in America where unfortunately your, your history doesn't matter.

Your gen.

Your.

The generations.

There's, you know, when you live in a, in an area where there's tribes of people and I remember just, I forget her name now.

She's a, she's a well known Muslim who, she Was an atheist.

I heard she might have converted to either Roman Catholicism or Christianity recently.

But she was a Muslim who fled.

Fled the country.

She.

I forget what country.

Like Sudan or something.

And they, you know, she fled there and came to, I think it was like Denmark or something.

Became very outspoken against Islam.

Has many death threats against her.

But in her book, and I forget the name of the book, she even talks about that in the country she was in, where you have tribes that are so important.

She was raised to be able to go back 14 generations.

Every generation would memorize 14 generations back.

And so we don't have a kind of history like that.

But when you're.

Your genealogy is important to you.

You do.

And so, like a John MacArthur will say, oh, we can never have them know who the Messiah is after 70 AD because all the records were burned.

Well, think through this.

If your genealogy is important to you, your, Your tribal line and the records are burned and you have it memorized, what do you think is the first thing you're going to do when those things are burned?

You're going to write them down again.

Thank you.

Right.

So.

So how do we know?

Well, because people wrote it down and they kept the records because those records were important.

And, you know, when they fled to different parts of the world, they.

They would take those records with them.

Now, we could trace it through last names.

That's one of the ways that we could do it.

Now, does that tell you whether you're fully Jewish or not?

No.

You have people that intermix.

My children would not be fully Jewish, but both of my parents were.

And one of the things within Judaism is it's really looked or frowned upon to marry outside of someone who's a gentile.

And so it's very important for Jewish people to know the lineage of who they're marrying.

But let's say that you can say this person is Jew.

Do you think that the Christian today has any obligation towards that Jew?

Let's say that you can just settle the debate that this person's Jew.

Just take their word for it.

Obviously, you know, I mean, you could take my word that I'm an Indian person, right?

Is there any obligation for this?

Dude, you are so.

You are so white.

You are definitely not Indian.

I'm gonna identify as a Y tomorrow, right?

There's one obligation there.

There's.

And I would say that there's one obligation, and that would be to preach the gospel, to share the gospel with.

With.

With every.

Every tribe, every nation, every.

Every ethnic group so that they Come to Christ.

Because if, if we die apart from Christ, apart from faith in Christ, regardless of your ethnicity, you're going to be separated from God eternally.

So our obligation is to share the Gospel with every Jew, with every Gentile of every tribe and nation.

That's it.

That's it.

Yeah.

I, I'm glad that I didn't go first because I was just going to say no, and so you just corrected me.

So now wait, wait, stop that.

I am going to make it real on that.

Did I, what did I do?

You know, you would have, you, you would have corrected me had I gone first.

But since, since, since I didn't.

Okay.

No, you, you have a better answer?

No, I, I, I, I, Yeah, I would say that there's, there is this view that somehow Christians, and this is more something I think within dispensationalism, this view that somehow there is some obligation, as you're saying, or some special view of, of Jewish people.

I mean, I, because I'm Jewish, I get asked all the time like, how do, did you get saved?

And my answer is the same way everyone else did.

Amen.

There's nothing different, nothing special about me being Jewish and getting saved than someone who's Roman Catholic can get saved.

You know, we all get saved the same way.

I mean, that is what scripture says, whether Jew or Gentile, whether free or slave, whether male or female, there is no distinction.

That's not talking about women pastors, by the way.

So Paul, Paul lays out this obligation that, that Tom's talking about in Romans chapter 1, verse 14, where he says, I am under obligation both to Greek and to barbarian, both to the wise and to the foolish.

So for my part, I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.

And this obligation, right is, is also in terms of debt, right?

I, I am in, I, I owe this to you because of the person who has given me this, this message to give to you.

Therefore I am obligated to give it to you.

So every Christian is under obligation to proclaim the gospel to, to Greek, which would be the, the wise, to the barbarians, which would be the babblers, and then, you know, the wise and foolish.

So we are to take the gospel to everyone now, regardless of, of ethnicity.

Yeah.

A question, two questions.

Now there are some people who do believe, based on Romans 15, that because we share in the spiritual blessings of Israel through Christ, Romans 15 says we ought to give them physical meaning.

Every church should support, support some form of Jewish missions.

There are people who believe that's more in the dispensational camp.

And the second one is I, I agree we share the gospel with them.

Then the question becomes is there any obligations Christian ought to have towards the nation of Israel?

That would be my two questions then to clarify.

So, so when one of the things I was saying, I don't know if it's really answering your questions is that their question came up earlier.

Is, is, is a Jewish, is ethnic Jew my brother?

Are they, Are they my brother?

Is there, are there, is there some connection between me?

Is there a special connection that the Jews.

Matter of fact, I've even heard somebody say it was dispensationalist, hardcore matter of fact, not a progressive.

This dispensationalist of old would would say that the Jewish people are, are our brothers.

Matter of fact, I, I met.

I don't know if you remember this, sorry for the stuttering.

I don't know if you remember this, but I was, I was going out and I was going to a Hanukkah celebration.

Remember that Andrew?

And I was sharing the gospel on the streets and I was pointing and I was talking to the people who were celebrating Hanukkah that day.

And I was in Isaiah 53 and some Christians came up and they said, what are you doing?

And I said I'm sharing the gospel with these people.

There are brothers.

There are brothers.

And I'm like, no, they aren't.

They, they need Christ, they need Jesus, you know, otherwise that they're going to remain dead in their sins.

And you know, Romans at the end of Romans 9, the beginning of Romans 10 talks about that, that they, that they had a understanding of a God but not a right understanding.

They had a, they were self righteous people and, and they were, they were, they were counting on their works, boasting that they were the covenant people of God, but misunderstanding what, what the gospel was, that they couldn't achieve eternal life through works that, that he gave us the law so that to show us that we couldn't keep it, that we needed a substitute, you know.

So.

Yeah, I don't know if that answered your question or not, but just want to throw that in.

He just was burdened to say it.

Yeah, I had to say it.

No, but I think, I think that a big part of the distinction is over ethnic Israel or, or the nation of Israel that's there today.

And a theological view of Israel as the body of Christ, the body of believers, the chosen people, however, however you want to word it.

I think that it's a mistake to Think.

I mean, I was raised to believe that I'm God's chosen people.

I was in like Flynn.

That's what I told the guy that shared the gospel with me.

I thought my Judaism gave me an automatic ticket to heaven.

And the people that you're saying, Tom, that came to you when you're out doing open air seem like they might have a similar view.

Right.

And so the issue is Judaism or being an Israelite doesn't give you an instant ticket to heaven.

They need the gospel just as well, both in the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Amen.

And so the reality is that the laws given to Israel, and this is something that a lot of people don't understand, the laws given to Israel were not for the purpose of earning righteousness with God.

It was a twofold purpose.

One was to reveal that you cannot be clean.

This is what Leviticus teaches.

You are not pure, you are not clean.

You can't be the one to make atonement.

So that's one thing that we see throughout Leviticus.

But the other thing, the major purpose of these laws were separation.

We're to keep the nation separate from the other nations, because that way it was for the purpose of Messiah, which is why we don't need many of those laws any day anymore, because the Messiah has come.

So these separation laws or holiness laws that are to keep the nation separate until Messiah comes isn't needed when Messiah comes.

So, you know, so.

So did you just say that the, that the covenant.

So they all.

The.

All the law was fulfilled at the coming of Christ?

Well, not, not all the law.

It depends how we're looking at the law.

Right.

I mean, there's.

There's laws that are universal for all people, but I think they're the whole moral laws.

Yeah, well, see, as, as, as in, in Reformed theology, we refer to a threefold apartheid division being moral, civil, ceremonial.

Okay, yeah.

With that.

I mean, just all laws are moral.

Okay.

So when people say moral law, they're not talking about the specific of.

Of the law being a moral issue or not, because all laws are moral.

But the idea is that, you know, there are certain laws like the Ten Commandments, which they're trying to define them in different groups.

That would not be a Jewish way of arguing for law.

Okay.

And this may be why I've always kind of been against that division.

There are, there's laws that are universal for all people, and there were laws of Moses that were for Israel.

And so I would see it as universal laws, laws for the nation of Israel and laws for the church.

Some of those would overlap because they're universal, but some are not.

I mean, you don't keep kosher.

And the kosher laws are the holiness laws.

They were to keep the nation separate.

So wearing certain kinds of clothes, eating certain kinds of foods.

All of these laws that were referred to as holiness laws were for the purpose of separation from other nations.

Right.

And so that was fulfilled in the sense or completed when Christ came.

You no longer needed that because now both Jews and Gentiles were coming together.

Right, right.

So Matthew 5, 17.

Do you not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets?

I have come to.

I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.

So.

And I would.

So.

And I would maybe we might be.

Be closer together than we think on the.

On God's moral law.

So I would say that even the Ten Commandments of the cell, those are.

That is a description of God's moral law.

And then anything outside of God's moral law are positive laws.

Positive laws being attached to the Covenant of Israel with.

With the covenant of Israel, with the Mosaic law.

So those.

Those positive laws were only.

Only for Israel at the time.

Yeah.

So let me.

Let me take one that is probably the most disputed of the.

Of what you'd call the moral law, the Ten Commandments.

Right.

The Sabbath.

Yep.

And.

And Drew, you may remember this back in the day that.

Remember Drive By Theology.

Those.

Those guys.

I don't know if you remember that podcast.

So.

So I did a.

I would agree.

With the bond Servant for Jesus gal.

Ten Commandments is summarizing the law.

Yeah.

This is Melissa.

Yep.

Side note, whenever I'm talking to someone about expository preaching, I go to Moses receiving the Ten Commandments, and I say the Ten Commandments was God's written law.

And then what you see in Leviticus is the expository sermon, the Ten Commandments.

I.

Well, we could talk about.

Yeah, I think it's more than that, but.

Yeah, yeah, it's the gospel.

It's the gospel.

You're looking at positive laws that, that are.

That are rooted from God's moral law.

But there.

There were.

There were reasons for it.

Johnny left.

That's too bad.

You.

You think about, you know, go.

You tell your child not to go play with a light socket.

That's a positive law.

Right, Right.

But that's rooted in the moral line.

Concerned for safety.

Right.

Yeah.

Let me.

Johnny dropped out.

He said he had to go.

But, hey, Johnny, reach.

Reach out to me.

At the ministry.

Let's.

Let's get together and talk if you're still listening or watch later.

So, so let me say this, and, and I know we got you guys both start a bunch of things for us to, to address, but let me say this, Let me do the Sabbath.

So when Drive By Theology, they, you know, I did one on the Sabbath.

Reformed.

Was it Reformed gals.

I forget the.

The podcast name shoot.

But Colleen Sharp had.

Had done an episode on Sabbath and, and she.

And I did one on the Sabbath where I disagreed with the view.

And the guys from Drive By Theology, you know, were like, did three episodes on my one episode responding to it.

And then we got together and in the end it was kind of funny.

We didn't.

We wish we recorded this, but we actually agreed with our view on the Sabbath.

So I believe that there was a Sabbath given that was universal for all mankind given on the seventh day.

And that was not for Jewish people because there weren't any Jewish people at that time.

There are no Israelites.

So that was given at that in Genesis.

Right.

It was theology gals.

Thank you.

Thank you, Tara.

I drew a blank and she, she was theology gals.

They're not recording anymore, which is sad.

But so what.

What we had then was a universal law of a Sabbath.

Moses comes along and gives more detail, more specific law for the nation of Israel.

But now that Christ has come and we are not the nation of Israel anymore, and now we're the body of Christ, that's both Jew and gentile, I think we're still.

We're not under the law that was given to Israel.

We're under the universal law that God had on the seventh day of creation.

So we don't have to.

We don't have the law that we can't pick up sticks.

This is what Jeffrey Rice would always.

When we get together, he'd be like, do you kill a guy for picking up sticks then?

Right.

Well, I would say, no, we don't, because we're under the universal law, which is that we are to have one day of rest and six days to work.

So we shouldn't be working seven straight days.

We have one day of rest.

And that rest really should be devoted to the worship of God.

And so that would be my view.

I.

Andrew, I've never heard a dispensationalist say that, but thank you very much.

I 100 agree with you.

Well, because you gotta talk to dispensationalists more.

Yeah, I mean, especially Jewish ones that have my.

An understanding of what the Jewish law is.

You're 100 right.

Because though that, that law transcends the Mosaic law, it is a creation law and it transcends it.

So I.

What you called, what was that, that you called it?

The holiness or whatever.

Yeah, we.

I would just say that it's, it's, it's God's moral law.

And, and now something even greater has happened than creation of rest, that, that Christ has resurrected.

And so we celebrate.

That's the pattern of the church that we have one day in seven celebrated on now on Sunday.

That's Drew.

Drew, either you or someone out there, please, you gotta, you gotta clip this, this episode because no idea.

I'm a hundred percent right.

He totally agrees.

Like, I mean, this is.

Andrew's not used to having so many people go, yeah, you're right.

What do you mean used to.

I'm not used to anyone doing that.

What do you mean?

I'm only here.

Used to being called the heretics.

What you're saying goes against the grain of any other.

I mean, it goes against the, the people, my pastors who, who are TMS guys.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I do, I do take a different view.

And I do think that it's my Judaism, my Jewish upbringing that gives me that different view because I have a different view of the law than most Christians.

I have a Jewish mindset of the law, not a Christian one.

That's why I don't look at it as the threefold.

I mean, I do have a threefold division kind of, but different.

Right.

My threefold division is universal Nation of Israel Church.

And so the Reform, Reformed.

I think that's the term Reformed Covenant Theology.

It used to be New Covenant Theology, but like Keith Fosky, he'd be the Reformed Covenant.

And, and I think that their view would be, hey, look, the.

That which is reiterated in the New Testament is the law.

So they refer to a law of Christ.

And, and I'm, and I'm good with calling the law for the church the law of Christ.

You know, I'm, I'm okay with that.

I, I think that within there, you know, they say, okay, if it's been repeated in the New Testament, it's a law for us.

And they'll say, well, nine have been, one hasn't.

And a lot of dispensationalists will use that same argument.

Yeah, but what happened about New Covenant Theology?

Correct.

New.

Well, it's New Covenant Theology.

Keith calls it, I think Reformed Covenant Theology.

Oh, no, he calls it progressive progress.

That's it.

Right.

Progressive confidence, progressive combination.

So, but see, the question I have is what happened on the seventh day of creation?

What was that?

Sabbath and for who?

That was a.

That was a Sabbath given to Adam and Eve for all of us.

Right.

All right, let's see if we can get through some of these.

I mean, I think this has been a good, helpful discussion.

I think that, you know, I was really curious and this is why I didn't want to have a lot of discussion with you, Tom, ahead of time.

Because I, I really wanted to let, to have us have the discussion here and not clarify everything.

Because, folks, what I want, I mean, part of the goal of why I wanted to do this and why I just said, hey, Tom, let's do this and, and not have the discussion is I kind of had the belief that there's going to be a lot more agreement than people would have thought that Tom I think, would have thought.

Well, I think me, when me and Tom were texting about it, we had an idea it was gonna go one way, this conversation, and it's gone a completely other way.

It really has.

And part of it is.

And, and this is.

I said, what do we do here?

We, We.

Not we.

We model apologetics and we teach apologetics.

Right.

Well, I would say that, Andrew, I think that you're just way leakier than most.

No, I'm biblical.

Because I wouldn't even call yourself.

Well, because I do think that we would.

We.

We would.

Your dispensationalism would come out when we talk about, you know, old covenant fulfillment Christ and what are we looking forward to?

Yeah, it would, but that, but that's more the, the literal hermeneutic.

Yeah.

You know, or the future.

You're looking for a land.

You're looking for a, you know, Christ.

To be honest, David Stone, you're probably looking for a literal.

It's like a millennial kingdom that has an eternal state that has a time stamp on it.

But, you know, I mean, you, you.

It'S, it's, it's sort of like you said before when we were talking about this debate that I have coming up, and I, I told you the topic and you cringed.

And we're like, what?

Because the, the reality is, is that you recognized that the, you know, you, you had even said it was a great line, but you said, you know, if, if you interpret the Bible literally, you're going to come to a dispensational view.

You're going to come to a pre.

Millennial view because you're going to see A separation of church and Israel.

Because if you take it in a literal sense, that is what comes out of it.

And I want to qualify that for the show.

And what I mean by that is when we take, because I would take it literal, but I would also look at types and shadows.

I would also look at, so when we, when we say literal, when you're, when you're interpreting something through the Old Old Testament and you're reading it and what you're looking at, you're reading, okay, what it meant, you know, from that author to the audience that it was written to, that's what it means today.

That's what a dispensational should hold to.

And, and I would say that, agree with Samuel Renahan that, that the divine, that the human authors had an understanding of what they, what they wrote, but they didn't have an exhaustive understanding.

So my hermeneutic would be different than yours.

Because I'm going to look at everything through the lens of Christ.

What you're going to say is what it meant even in the Old Testament is what it means today, where I would say, no, we have to look at that through the lens of, of what we have now through the New Testament.

And that's, and that's the difference we take is I, I will interpret the Old Testament Testament in its context first and then look at what the New Testament would say about it.

And there may be times where, look, there are times where God had a dual meaning, but I will only say there's a dual meaning when God says, out of Egypt, I call my son was both Egypt and Jesus, because God said so.

But no one would have seen that unless God said that.

Right, Exactly.

You look at the, you look at Psalm 22.

I mean, no, nobody would know what that was about without having the New Testament scriptures.

Well, without, without seeing the crucifixion.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and, yeah, so, so in that, so, yes, literal, historical, grammatical, but I would also add to that redemptive.

Yeah, and, and that's the difference is the redemptive.

That's where we differ.

And so, but the reason I wanted to do this as a discussion folks, for, for you all watching, listening is I wanted, I, I, I, I know.

Well, I didn't know Drew was going to come in, but I knew Tom, but I also know Drew and, and you know, so it didn't change anything.

I knew that we could have the discussion where it's, what did we do?

I mean, think back and go, maybe re, Listen to this.

Re Watch this.

And what are you going to see?

We had a lot of clarifying.

We didn't assume people's beliefs.

Right.

Maybe we each came in assuming what each other believed.

But what did we do?

We asked clarifying even when Johnny came in.

Ask clarifying questions, get a better understanding, then engage with an informed view.

That's what we must do in apologetics.

Because if you're not doing that, especially if you're trying to defend the Christian faith against other faiths, other beliefs.

Beliefs, and you start misrepresenting what they believe, they're not going to listen to you.

We have to hear them out.

Right, but even individually, Andrew, I mean, because if, if I'm thinking that, you know, before the show, I thought I was going to be, be arguing with a, or at least talking, discussing with a person who holds to progressive dispensationalism.

And there are views that, I know that, that, that, that camp holds to, that you don't hold to like the Sabbath.

So those are, I, I, I think it's, it's important to hear out the, the, the person you're talking to because.

They may not hold perfectly to account.

You do.

Yeah.

Because you do not, you do not represent a lot of the people that are out there who hold to progressive dispensationalism based on some of the views.

That you've, you've said that's why I'm represent.

Right.

And my last name is Rapaport.

Or, or we could call it, call it inconsistent.

No, it's consistent is the, is the whole thing.

It's consistent.

And where you happen to be like a broken clock.

Right.

Twice a day, you happen to be right in these areas that, you know.

Yeah.

And I mean, that's why I'm, I'm calling it Reformed dispensationalism.

Just my term because I just kept reforming.

So let's see if we can get through some of the questions you guys put up here.

JW says how do they prove their genetic Jews?

Anyone can convert.

No, we deal with this.

Oh, I left this up because the other part, the 12 tribes.

So we, we can tell the 12 tribes from the, Nowadays we use the last names is, is how that's known.

So.

Oh, I should put this up since it was Bible care and share fellowship said ouch, Andrew.

I don't know what I said that he said ouch to like, I don't know what it was at that point, but I was like, oh, sorry for whatever, you know.

So this one, I think, Drew, you put up JW says, Andrew, should we be pro Israel, the modern nation, and anti Palestine as Christians, or should we be proud, nonpartisan and impartial?

Well, I, I would say this.

Wait, theological answer or, or political answer.

Well, that's, that's exactly why I started.

Because it seems like it's trying to combine both things.

Right.

And it's not really clear.

Well, see, theologically, I don't know.

Look, even as a dispensationalist, theologically, I don't know that it's going to influence.

Because I think that the, the reality is, is that we, we have to look at every nation independently.

Like, there's people that think, oh, just Israel's completely bad.

No, I mean, everyone wants to blame Israel for everything wrong in the world, but I mean, now they're trying to say that, that it was the Israel Mossad that killed jfk.

I mean, they're like, that's a new one.

Okay.

There's nothing in the, there's nothing in the files that revealed that one.

But, hey, but, but I, I, I do think, I mean, I think that because this is framed Israel versus Palestine, there is the issue of, okay, the argument that the, the Palestinians.

First off, there are no Palestinians.

There's no nation of Palestine.

There never was.

Palestine was an area under Roman rule and Turkish rule and British rule, okay?

And it was called Palestine since Roman days as a, as a derogatory term to Jewish people that live there because the Philistines were the ones that were kind of thorn in the side of, of Israel.

Okay?

So there's no nation of Palestine.

There's no language of Palestine.

There's no culture of Palestine.

And in fact, before 1948, all the Jewish people that lived in that region were called Palestinian.

Okay?

So I mean, just historically, the, the issue where this really came up is, is October 7th.

And I'm just going to say, if you look at what happened October 7, what Hamas did now notice the difference.

I just did there, I didn't reflect, refer to Palestinian people or those in Gaza.

I'm talking about a specific government group called Hamas that controls much of that area and has a great influence there.

What Hamas did was wicked and barbarous.

And yes, they need to be, they, I would say they need to be eliminated because of the fact that they want to eliminate a group of people.

They are, what I would say is anti Semitic.

They want to, when they say from the, from the, I forgot the phrase now.

From the border to the sea, from the river to the sea, what they're saying there is to wipe out from all Jewish people from Jordan to the.

To the sea.

I mean, all of Israel.

They're.

What they're saying is to eliminate all the people.

That is the meaning.

And if you.

If you doubt me, go see what Hamas says it means, and you will see.

They.

They're not saying, hey, we want to.

We want to be in the land.

They're saying, Israel needs to be wiped out.

And that is different.

And so it is different.

If.

If they were saying, hey, we want to coexist, no problem, Problem.

Right.

We could work that out.

When you have a group people saying, we need to eliminate them altogether, genocide, then I say, you got to be with Israel in that one, because the Palestinians, in that case, in Hamas, want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

And as.

As Christians, I.

I would say in that argument, no, we have to stand up for justice.

Amen.

Now, I would even point similarly to.

To Russia and Ukraine.

You can make the same.

Same exact thing that Russia wants.

Yeah.

I don't think they want to exterminate a people.

But.

But you could still take a side.

Morally, and, and both sides.

Right.

Both sides there are wrong.

Yeah, right.

For sure.

I mean, look, I, I really, you know, And.

And Tara is asking, do they still have American hostages?

No, I think the last American hostage has come home.

But there.

There still are.

They still have dozens of hostages.

And so I say that.

Say, like, when you look at Russia and Ukraine, look, so Trump was able to work a ceasefire, right?

Yeah.

And there's one thing that's not on the table anywhere is Ukraine being added to NATO.

Right.

None of the NATO countries are saying they're even considering it.

That I've heard.

Right.

It's only Ukraine who.

Who's.

So.

So a deal struck.

Who was it that renegotiated?

It was Ukraine.

He all of a sudden starts renegotiating that we have to be in NATO, which kicks Russia to go, that's.

It.

Deals off that.

That's not part of the deal.

Which, if that was the case, I don't blame Russia.

I'm like, wait a minute.

I don't want all you guys right next to Mike.

You know, you're gonna.

You're gonna hamper my country.

You're gonna be surrounding me completely.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, even if you look at what happened when Zelinsky came to America, the.

The reason he was coming was to sign the deal that would put Americans in Ukraine, which would cause a ceasefire because Putin's not going to attack with American lives there, because that's going to rain down fire from Trump.

Right.

So it would, it's a deal that would bring a ceasefire, but we get the mineral rights from Ukraine.

He gets great deal for us by.

The Great deal for us.

And, and by the way, before you finish, let me just say, because this is what people may not realize the order of events happened and this is why what you're going to say next, I don't know what you're going to say, but I have a theory is so important.

Typically what they do is they sign the deal and then they do the press conference.

And so he came here to sign the deal and he never signed it.

He just wanted to go to the press conference.

So now continue.

So he came here for the purpose to sign that deal.

They did the press conference where he threw a temper tantrum and then Trump and Vance were trying to go, hey, we're trying to help you.

You don't have a chance if you don't have us.

And we're trying to help you.

We're not going to just give you any more money, but this is a way where we can help you help.

Your country rebuild it and everything.

Yeah, yeah, we.

And so he threw a temper tantrum, didn't want to sign the deal, left to go do all the.

Well, he was trying to renegotiate the deal live on camera.

Yeah.

And then he was.

And then he was kicked out.

Right.

Basically kicked out of the White House.

By the way, do you know, he.

Wanted to come back and do the deal.

Right.

And so they redo the deal and now he says, I'm not going to do the deal.

Yeah.

And so it's interesting.

Do you know that when Trump kicked him out of the White House that he was, he had two events he was supposed to do.

He was supposed to be on Brett Bear on Fox News and he was supposed to go to the Ukrainian house.

His people that are here that support him, he blew off his own people and went on Brett Bear.

So he, he did, he just didn't go to them that he was supposed to do before Brett Bear blew them off.

Went to Brett Bear, then left.

But.

All right, now we've, we've really gone off.

All right, so let me try to get.

I don't know.

I, I don't know which one of you put this up here, but Melissa had said, I'm a reformed Baptist.

And Amil, I don't know what.

Oh, you just, you just, you starred that he started that just because he wanted to give a thumbs up.

Okay.

Now I Understand?

Kathy S.

Says question Sfe do you think the far left and news is also influencing anti Semitism in the church?

Absolutely.

Let me be clear.

Get.

Get the book Shepherds for Sale by Megan Basham.

The reality is that the Marxists have been trying to influence the church for a very long time.

You want to know what happened to the Southern Baptists?

Follow the money Soros organizations that started giving money to the Southern Baptists with their.

The elrc.

And you wonder why they're promoting the wokeness.

It's.

It's because the money is there.

And once they start getting the money they wanted that money to keep coming.

That's.

That's what that's about.

So the answer to that.

Yes.

Let's see.

Bible care and share fellowship says two hardest groups to reach.

And this is when we're talking about Jewish people.

People.

I, I think the.

I don't know who the other hardest group but I, I started to say yeah, the.

The Jewish people aren't necessarily the hardest.

It's.

I, I think that it's anyone who is self righteous.

Yes.

So you have those false converts.

What is up?

I mean we are agreeing just way too much here.

I mean that's great answer because I'm always right.

So when you're, when you're right you're agreeing with that.

But, but, but yeah.

I mean it's.

What makes a certain group of people hard is self righteousness.

Yep.

It doesn't matter if they're false converts of Christianity if they're Jewish, if they're Catholic, if they're Muslim, if they're Mormon.

It's the self righteousness that makes it hard because they're not looking for the savior.

100 yep.

Okay.

I guess.

Jeff Ro Bison.

I'm not sure where the spaces should be in there but he says I, I think a lot of reformed just.

Robinson.

Robinson.

There we go.

Yeah.

Hey.

It matters.

Geo Frobinson matters where you put this space.

Wow.

You got your syllables wrong.

I'm sorry about that.

Jeff.

Jeff Robinson.

Sorry.

All right.

That's why you gotta have underscores so idiots like me know where to put the space.

Go Geo Fribitson.

Oh Andrew.

Okay.

He says I think a lot of Reformed discount of future.

Future revival of ethnic Israel and over overreaction to dispensationalism.

I.

I actually know some reformed guys.

We met.

Met Slick for one.

And actually this guy I'm going to debating.

I talked to him today and both of them hold to a future.

You know, God doing something for A future Israel.

So there are some.

I think there's quite a few.

I know Kim Riddlebarger, who is all millennial, would.

Would hold to that view.

Yeah, I think there's.

There's quite a few.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, the Scriptures are clear that there is a remnant of Israel that will be saved.

So that means.

I am so glad for that passage, by the way.

Roman what, 26.

Yeah.

And so, I mean, there's going to be branches that are going to be cut away, but then there's going to be branches that are going to be grafted back in.

So.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know anyone that says there's not going to be a revival of sorts or a remnant that is saved out of Judaism.

Yeah, I think Calvin holds to, to the view that in the same way the Gentiles are brought in, in that passage will be this.

So he will say that it's just all, all the people of God.

And, but, but I think, I think there, the argument is clearly made that there's a distinction that, that there is a remnant, you know, clearly.

And so I would agree that, that there is going to be not all Israel people will say, because I would say that that's the one people of God, but there's going to be a large number of ethnic, ethnic Israel that will come to Christ before Jesus comes.

I believe that.

Now, this next one, I, I started just because I thought I, I would get a laugh out of it, but, you know, instead I mispronounced someone's name and we got more of a laugh.

But, you know, says, he says, I'm Jewish, but I'm raising several barbarian children and I share the Gospel with them.

That's good.

That will crack me up.

Let me introduce you to my children.

Oh, okay.

So JW says the new covenant has over 1500 commands, and those commands are sufficient for Christians.

I'm.

I'm not sure.

So, JW, I wasn't sure what the 1500 commands were.

I know, I know.

We refer to 614 commands in the Pentateuch, you know, the first five books of Moses.

Yeah, So I, I put that just to say, hey, if you're out there, jw, jw, just tell us, give us more on that.

Is he just talking about the imperatives?

Yeah, that's what I was, I was thinking.

I don't know, imperatives where, like Paul says, now you do this.

And it's just something that actually just relates to Christian living.

Right.

How to live.

Yeah, that's a command.

But I don't know if that's.

If that's what he's counting.

Yeah.

So.

And then it would be important, important to make that not a checkoff list either.

That, that if it's Christian living, I mean, this is, this, this should be flowing from our faith automatically for the love of Christ.

Yeah.

So I'm trying to look right now, and I might not be able to do this right now live, but I'm trying to look with my Logos Bible software to see there's a way I can grab all of the imperatives and literally search just on imperatives.

And I think it's the Bible browser.

He just said.

Yes, the imperatives.

Oh, okay, good.

And this would be a good time for me to plug Lagos, actually is if you guys want to get Logos.

People think of Logos as being super expensive.

It's.

It is not anymore.

They have their subscriptions now, and I.

I think it's 10 or $20 a month, and you can get a number of books and have that.

So like, right now I'm in.

I'm in a.

A tool that lets me search the entire Bible based on books of the Bible genre, literary type, sentence types.

So, you know, and I'm trying to see to.

To find if I can find, you know, imperatives, you know, here.

And so I'm.

I'm just trying to.

To look to.

To check that number out, but I may have to do it afterwards.

But if you want to get logos, go to logos.comsfe that's logos.comsf I if you don't, if you're not using logos, I.

I really encourage you to check it out.

So I just pulled.

I just asked AI how many imperatives were there in coin, a Greek.

And I said 15 to 1700, 150 in Matthew 100 and Mark 200, Luke 16.

John, you love.

You love AI.

But let me tell you something.

AI will lie to you, and it'll do it confidently.

So this is, this is one of the things that I've been noticing.

I think it's the chocolate knocks over there with Doug Wilson's group, which.

Who I like.

I do like.

I like chocolate.

Knox, let me clarify.

But what he does is he's actually.

He's actually tweaking AI.

He has inserted all of Calvin's Institutes, and so he's trained AI to pull from those resources.

So if you learn how to use AI, you could actually use it as a good tool.

No, I.

You give it specific prompts and then it starts to.

It starts to adjust itself to really get to how you're thinking so that when you ask a question or something, it's assuming how you've asked a question in the past, given specific prompts.

Definitely.

So if I ask it, If I tell AI or chat GBT to answer all my questions, according to 1689 federalism, I'm gonna have a list.

He's gonna pull from Renahan.

He's gonna pull from Jeffrey Johnson.

He's, you know, so I, I, my, my AI is a he.

His pronouns are he.

Yeah, so.

So the thing is, there's a whole thing now referred to as prompt engineering, which is what you're referring to with, with the AI.

And so this is on.

This is something I've been doing and working on.

And you can train it, but you're training it for yourself.

But I have done this with Chat GPT with one of their engines.

And I could tell it, I could ask it how many Rs are in refrigerator and it will confidently tell you three when there's four.

And, and you could even say, well, count them all, how many, how many letters?

And it'll, it'll say three.

It'll, it'll even, you know, it'll spell out the word three.

Right.

It thinks it's three.

And so it, so it can confidently lie.

But yeah, let me, let me share my Bible.

So software here, Logos Bible software.

And I went into the.

So if you have Logos Bible software, I went into it and in there there's a tool called Bible Browser.

It's hard to read and I get it.

But this says Bible browser.

It's under tools under there.

They have a thing called literary types.

So I went for literary type types.

Well, actually, no, I cheated.

I went up here to the find and just typed imperative.

And so that pulled every imperative in the Bible.

Wow, okay.

So in not the New Testament, The Bible has 1,500 and I think that that's a 99,89.

So 1589 imperatives in the entire Bible.

So it's not the New Testament, but we could limit that to New Testament.

I could just say click all the New Testament books here.

What they'd really to do is the common divisions and choose New Testament.

If they have.

I see them having Gospels histories, but do they have just New Testament?

I mean, I could click the individual ones here, but so that's how you could do that if you have Logos software.

So those are some of the tools that it makes available to you.

How much is it a month now?

I think it go to logos.com sfe and I think that it is.

I forget what the discounts that they offer when you, when you order it through, through us because they do discount the, the subscription.

But I think it's.

I, I want to say I'm gonna go out there now.

I think, I think it's as low as, as like, I know it's definitely like there's a twenty dollar tier.

But I, I thought that with the discount you can get it at least starting at.

I'm going to go out there right now.

This is great to do when purchased the basic which was 50 bucks but I got that like years ago.

Yeah.

And then you can steadily like upgrade or you can add on to your library whenever you want and then they always have like a free book of the month that you can add and then there's always discounts on like sets like commentaries and, and stuff like that.

So if you go out there here, here it is and all you have to do is click the start a free trial.

And so they have different subscription plans that you can choose.

Now if you do an annual plan you save 16%.

If you decide to do a two year plan you save 21%.

And so, so if you do a two year plan you, you can get for two years at under $190.

And so that's the full year.

Yeah, so that works out to about $8 a month.

Can't beat that.

So for $8 a month if you, if you pay for two years in advance you can get their, their premium which you know is, you know and you can, you can compare what's in each of these.

So they have the comparison charts here.

And so you know, if you, if you were to do the.

Let's see the next one up there is this pro tier is less than $12 a month.

And so you could go through here and see all of the, all the things you can open each one of these up and see all the tools that you can, that you can get.

You know you have the interactive tools.

So here's you know the, the Bible Outline browser.

Right.

That's included in all these.

So you can go through and see everything that's, that's included but they've really changed it up where you can get a pretty good rate.

I mean even this max that they have here if you do it for two years is less than $16 a month.

So you know, I'd encourage you guys to check out.

Just go to.

I'll put it back up our link that, that we have because that's with the discounts that they give for, for us.

Sorry.

For everybody who, who paid $7,000.

So you, you know, I've been, I've been using logos since 1994.

Okay.

So yeah, I know that makes me old.

And so I have spent enough.

I had one sales guy for 20 some years.

Okay.

And I know that I have one of the largest libraries.

I actually called logos for something today and the salesperson was like, wow, I haven't seen a library.

I said I don't have any books.

And she laughs.

She was like, she goes, yeah, so, so the, the, the point that I was making though was the, the I had, I had.

My sales guy once sent me, he just sends me an email with a picture of a Porsche Carrera.

And I said what's that?

He goes that's what your library would have costed.

Like that's how much you, you spent on your library over 20 years.

And I was like wow, that really makes me feel bad, like my wife is going to kill me.

You know, just, just think if you could sell digital books in your digital library like Bitcoin or the way you.

Do, like, well, you other books.

I've told my wife, I mean when I pass away, find someone that wants a logos library and just because it's my library, like I can give it to the kids.

Like they, they, it's not, it doesn't die with me and so it can be transferred.

And so I, I mean I guess.

I'll take it if.

Yeah, my kid, my daughter will probably get it first.

All right, so let's, let's put this up.

So JW says many dispensationalists will see modern day Israel as quote, the apple of God's eye, unquote.

So everything Israel does seems to be excused by them.

Yeah, I would agree that that is, that is the way some view that.

And they're wrong.

So.

Yep, that would, that was the conversation I think me and Tom were expecting to have tonight.

Yeah.

And, and that's just, and so JW says are, are Zion Zionist militant, anti Christian and do they seek world domination like radical Muslims?

No, actually what the Zionists would see is they want a nation of Israel for them to worship with peace, you know, without everyone trying to wipe them out.

I don't know that they're necessarily.

There's, there is this sense where they're anti Christian because in Israel the very religious don't want any, they don't want any Christian evangelizing the religious world.

I mean, you know, there's A great video of Ray Comfort being chased around by a woman who was spitting on him when he was evangelizing there.

And so JW continues and says, if so, they aren't the Zionists as big of a threat or bigger than the radical Muslims.

And so I, I think that, I don't think that they're out there trying to wipe people out.

I, I think that what you're seeing is people who are.

They, they, they want a nation of Israel and they want to be.

And really what you're seeing right now is that they want to reestablish the temple.

And so it's, it's.

The big part of it is the Temple Mount.

The Temple Mount was taken by fortune, force, by the Muslims.

And yet the Jewish people realize they, you know, nowadays, they can't take it by force.

So that's the thing, you know, so.

Oh, this is.

So some other comments we're seeing.

Melissa said, I subscribed to Lagos.

I first added it with the code SFE, you can now pay as low as $7 a month.

So, so there you go.

And she, she was saying, she asked whether I mentioned.

Did I mention my pillow?

No.

We're starting to get enough different sponsors that I'm not mentioning them all every week.

So I know Melissa likes me to mention the motion, but I don't want to do just commercials because we do have a couple more sponsors coming, actually.

So, so we're going to filter them through, but they're all good.

So with that, you know, I think that this was a good, healthy discussion.

I think that this is, you know, I, I wanted to do this.

So folks, like I said, I wanted us to, you three of us, I thought it'd be the two of us, but I, I wanted us to be able to demonstrate how we should go about doing apologetics with people we differ with and we shouldn't make assumptions about what people believe.

And I think that a lot of the debate that I see online about, you know, Jewish, you know, Israel today, Jewish people, the, you know, whether they're, whether they're God's people or.

I think a lot of it is, is just not understanding the terminology, not understanding what people are referring to, when they're referring, what time periods.

This is what we do when we do interpretation.

It's not just a matter of saying, well, it's in the Bible, but what did that mean at the time it was written?

Right.

Because people had differing views.

The view that the Jewish people had prior to the Babylonian captivity, between the Babylonian captivity to Christ and the Judaism we have today are three separate views of what's going on.

I would say that there's a distinction between the first and the second two categories because the second two categories became a false religion.

A man made system of works plus righteousness or works righteousness.

And so there you have a difference.

But even within those last two, there's some differences that the Talmud brought in.

And so it comes to when we say Israel, what do we mean by Israel?

When we say, say the church, what do we mean by the church?

So my encouragement to everybody is that we shouldn't assume what someone else believes we need to ask.

And so I'll let you guys have the, the last word here on this subject at least.

I think it was a great conversation.

In fact, it was so good and I was so shocked that it didn't go the opposite way.

I was like, huh, I don't need to say much.

Which is shocking when Drew doesn't sit on.

Yeah, I thought it was great.

Good, good.

Civil.

You know, I think also knowing and, and thinking about the other person that, that we're talking to.

Listen, we, we are brothers in Christ and we need to be charitable to each other.

And a lot of it is semantics.

A lot of it is word definitions.

You know, a lot of it is okay, you know, maybe, maybe somebody can actually, you can actually learn from somebody else in, in what they're saying or something that you've not thought of.

So we, we.

Irons.

Definitely sharpens.

Iron.

Iron.

And, and we grow with each other.

We don't have it all.

So I'm, I'm glad for the conversation.

I thought it went well.

Really well.

Okay.

And, and by the way, let's see this to correct.

JW says it was a Google search and it gave me 15, 1050 in the New Covenant, not 1500.

Correction.

So we got that corrected.

He also asked this question as the last one.

So dis.

So as a dispensationalist, do you believe in a One World government?

Well, of course.

And you know, right now Trump has to be the Antichrist because every president had, you know, since 1948 has always been the Antichrist.

I mean, Reagan, because his, his, his full name with his middle name had six letters.

Six letters and six letters.

So he was the Antichrist.

So, so we know Trump must be the Antichrist because he's president.

So.

Yeah, no, I mean, do I believe there will be a one World Government?

I don't think it'll be a one World government the way that some think that'll be every, everyone under one government system.

I, I think it'll be, I think it'll be a mix between Marxists and the religion will be Islam and you know, and the Catholics will be fighting there too.

But I don't think it's going to be a clean like one world.

It'll be a system that they all like the Marxist system that they'll all be part of, but they'll still be different governing bodies.

That's, that's my theory.

But ahead of it, his name will be Nikolai.

Yeah, that's, that's the guy that's from Left Left behind series.

So I, I really wish that that series never was written because man theologically.

Yeah.

Just Sunday.

I do want to plug in our show on Sunday.

Open Air Theology is going to be on Sunday evening and we're going to be talking about, about the quote unquote golden age and theonomy.

We're going to be listening to if you want to tune in to the last Kevcon that they had with Sam Waldron, Tom Hicks at 2 hours and 45 minutes in.

Are you going to be correcting their.

New book, the So I, I really liked what Tom Hicks had to say.

Okay.

On it.

I thought it was really good.

So.

Notice he didn't say what Tom Hicks said.

He just.

That's a great teaser.

That's a great teaser.

Don't, don't, don't ruin it.

But that's a great teaser.

Just leave it hanging there.

Yeah, it's, it's gonna be good.

I hope you guys.

It's gonna be great.

Not shared.

Yes, great.

And if you've not shared the gospel with anybody, you guys make it a point to go out and share the gospel with somebody tomorrow.

I mean, look, all you got to do is walk out your door and come in.

Don't just say God bless you.

Don't say Jesus loves you.

Communicate, communicate the gospel.

People need to understand their condition and not trust in their own righteousness, but in the personal work of Christ alone and, and make a person wise into salvation through God's word.

And Tom would like you to make open air theology great again.

Make it great.

Yes.

So we, we, we are glad to, to partner up with open air theology.

That's why we share platforms.

So if you're, we will get that on for next week.

That will, it'll be shared there.

But do go check out what you put up here.

Oh, JW says great, Great discussion.

Thank you very much.

God bless.

I learned a lot.

Good.

Thanks, brother.

That that was the goal.

And so check out Open Air Theology.

They, they eventually will have a podcast in, in an actual podcast form.

So it'll be on a podcast app, but we're working on that.

Well, I'm just waiting for them to work on that.

But so I keep, I, I hear it.

They're working on it.

But yes, but yeah.

And so check out my debate next week.

That will be on the, on the 8th.

That is Tuesday night at 8:00pm Eastern time.

So that'll be a, a fun debate, I'm sure.

Again, it's with a brother in Christ.

The fact that he was willing to exchange his opening, I think is a good thing.

I think it shows that he's not looking for the zingers and the gotchas and trying to see how he can, you know.

You know, and there's a difference, I think as Christians, when we're debating, I mean, Matt Slick and I will, will show, share our notes with one another, but Matt's not going to share it with an atheist, you know, professing atheist.

I'm not going to, you know, if I, if Tovia Singer didn't.

Tovia Singer, if he didn't like ghost me, I wasn't going to share my, my, you know, opening with, with him as a unbeliever because I just don't trust what he's going to do.

Right.

But you know, when I'm debating with a believer, I have no problem sharing my opening remarks, you know, and opening comments.

It, it, it makes for a better debate.

We both now have each other's opening remarks.

We can now, you know, we, we can now get into the debate.

When I get there, I'm going to be more prepared for rebuttal because I got a whole bunch of study I have to do in, in, in my, you know, in, in looking at Jeremiah and what the passages that he's spending some time time on.

So I have the time to do that.

So that's a good thing.

So hope you guys check that out.

Next week we will have a show.

I don't know what the topic will be.

Maybe we'll deal with the Joel webbing stuff, I don't know.

Or, or because I do think there's some things in there that even though I, you know, Joe Webman may, he may be just unqualified, maybe may be totally off base, I don't agree with some of his theology, but I think there's things we can learn that will teach us to be careful when reading things online.

So what I want to do with that is just not so much choose a side as much as I want to teach how to use some critical thinking skills when we approach some of the stuff we see on social social media.

So that's the goal.

I'll talk with these guys maybe offline and we'll see if they're up for that.

And again Johnny who is on the show if you are still if you're watching or whatnot, please reach out to us at Striving for Eternity.

Want to touch base with you a bit.

You can just email us and I should put it on for anyone.

If you want to contact us, just contact us.

Info@restrivingfore Eternity.com is a way to get a hold of us.

Info at striving for eternity.com and recommendation.

If you guys want to follow me on Twitter, the right one to follow is Andrew sf not any of the Andrew rap reports that are out there that there are some that are old accounts that I can't access anymore and some that are, you know, not me.

So as, as I've discovered when someone told you know was upset with me for not responding to his Twitter to to it I guess a tweet he told me that I was.

I was ignoring him because I could not answer his arguments.

I never saw them.

If you want me to see your your ex arguments, follow me on at Andrew underscore sfa.

If you're commenting to some other Andrew Rappaport, I'm not him.

There is one with a logo that has the Striving for attorney logo.

That's not me either.

So yeah, just so you know.

So.

Excuse me.

So I was, I was going to start start I'll end this way.

I was going to start the show by and now I don't have it up but I was going to read a message that I got this two, two weeks ago I think it was.

I didn't know if you guys know this but I'm a Nazi.

What?

Yeah, I'm a Nazi.

Yep, I knew it.

I.

That's what I was told and I'm like, I was like, you do know I'm Jewish, don't you?

Is this on X?

Yeah, no, it was on Facebook.

Someone sent a message and it was a sp.

It was like under the spam.

I just happened to find it because it was under the spam.

So it's someone I'm not friends with on Facebook.

So I couldn't, you know.

And so yeah, I just was like yeah, I'll just block.

But yeah, because I, I said that it was like that, you know, Christians should.

Now would be a time for conservatives to go, you know, get a Tesla and enjoy the, the ride.

And I.

That made me a Nazi.

Yeah, he claimed to be.

He claimed to be a Christian.

Look at you.

Yeah.

And, and, and he said, I'm a white supremacist Nazi.

And my.

So I just responded, you do know I'm Jewish, right?

Lock.

And that's how you deal with that one.

So, folks, until next week, just remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God, and we'll see you next week.