[00:00:00] Hannah: Hi, and welcome back to the Awfully Quiet Podcast. Today is a special one. It's the first time I have two guests on the show, and honestly, I had such a good time recording this with them. Isabel Griffin and Samara Bs. The dual behind in Tandem Studios where they offer all in one copywriting and web design.

They invited me into the behind the scenes of running a business together as two naturally quiet, introspective types, and it was such a refreshing conversation. What I love about them is how they've really let go of the conventional rules. You know, the loud advice on how to run a business, lend clients and show up online.

Instead, they've built something that fits their energy, their rhythms, and their personalities. We talk about what it's like to communicate as a founder team, how they set boundaries and how their client experiences shaped more around thoughtful momentum than constant hustle. We also get into design and copywriting, NoGo, and how listening deeply, asking the right questions and staying reflective actually helps stream clients pause and say.

Yes, this is it. I am so glad you're here for this one. If it resonates, feel free to share it with a friend who feels in tandem with you, and if you're up for it, leave a quiet five star seal of approval wherever you're listening. It really helps the show grow. Now, without further ado, let's get into the conversation with Isabelle and Samara. Isabelle Samara, thank you so much for joining me today, and welcome to the Awfully Quiet podcast.

[00:01:38] Samara: Thank you so much for Ha. Thank you.

[00:01:41] Hannah: I am so,

[00:01:42] Samara: be like three people.

[00:01:43] Hannah: I. I am so excited. I'm sure we'll get the hang of it. this is the first time I ever have two guests on it once, so we'll see how it goes today. and where I thought we'd get started, I gave you a little bit of a heads up for this is with a little bit of quiet fire to get a sense of your rhythms, a little sense of your personalities.

Is that all right with you? Can we get, are you ready?

[00:02:05] Isobel: I.

[00:02:07] Samara: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:02:08] Hannah: Cool. So, the first one is, who are the two of you is usually the one that says, let's just ship it versus the one that would rather take a little bit more time refining. Do a final, final, final version of something.

[00:02:25] Samara: I have an instant answer, but I dunno if, if you

[00:02:28] Hannah: You go ahead.

[00:02:33] Samara: My, my instinct says I am the one to be like. Just, let's just ship it. Let's just do it. And Isabelle Dots the I's and crosses all the T's, and thank goodness she does

[00:02:44] Isobel: Yeah, yeah. I

[00:02:45] Hannah: Well, you need somebody like this. You absolutely do. I love it. the second one is, who is more likely to rewrite a headline five times?

[00:02:55] Isobel: That one's, that one's gonna be me. Yeah. That

[00:02:58] Hannah: one's going to be the Copywriter. So you Isabel

[00:03:00] Isobel: That's kind of built into what I have to do. Yeah.

[00:03:05] Hannah: love it. is it fonts first or copy first?

[00:03:11] Samara: Oh, fonts first or copy first? Yeah. branding first. Yeah, branding first. So the fonts, colors, logos, and then getting into the copy and then into the website.

[00:03:25] Hannah: oh, I love that. So this is how you design, like is it, is it like designed first and then the content?

[00:03:31] Samara: Yeah, so the, in order to build out the website, we need, the visual identity to already be established. So that comes first. And then, I don't, correct me if I'm wrong, Isabelle, but I think even that visual identity sort of can play in a little bit to your sense of capturing the brand voice and the essence of the brand when you're doing the writing, which then becomes, the website design itself.

So it's kinda like design, copy design, like a sandwich

[00:03:58] Hannah: Yeah. Love it. Love it.

[00:04:00] Isobel: all kind of rolling into each other and kind of informing each other to get that cohesive final project, final piece.

[00:04:09] Hannah: Yeah, I love this. Well, we'll get into the process of it more. the next one is, who builds the pitch deck and who presents it?

[00:04:18] Samara: Ooh, that's a good one.

[00:04:20] Isobel: I, my instincts would probably go, I mean, I think we would both be involved with building, but I feel like maybe I would dig into that a little bit more. But I would definitely want Tamara to like take the lead on pitching. I'm actually presenting. Yeah. I don't know if she would want to, but I would want her to.

[00:04:40] Hannah: Samara? How do you feel about that?

[00:04:42] Samara: I was gonna say, I think we would both do both, I think. I think we are both. Yeah. We both like to ha have our hands in the building and we are both, you know, the front facing part of the business as well.

[00:04:55] Isobel: Yeah.

[00:04:56] Hannah: are you always in agreement? Like what a pitch deck should look like? Like the design of it? Like the, the vibe.

[00:05:06] Samara: What do you think?

[00:05:08] Isobel: I think in most things, especially because we spent so long kind of. If we're talking about our own like joint business in tandem, we've spent so long kind of drilling down into the essence of it and what we want it to look like and feel like and stand for that. I think whenever we create anything for us, we're, we're on the same page from the start, and that even goes into when we're creating things for other clients as well, we spend so much time in that early part discussing like, what do we want every aspect of a pitch tech, a website, Instagram post and email to convey that.

When we actually get into doing it, it's like, oh yeah, this kind of flows because we've had those conversations.

[00:05:52] Hannah: yeah. I'm asking because obviously in, in my corporate role, I sometimes get so annoyed when people mess with my PowerPoints. I have such a clear vision of what I want them to look like, you know, not too cluttered, minimal lean, and so when somebody comes in with an entirely different fund or color, I do get annoyed, but I'm sure that you guys are, you know, obviously professionals, so that doesn't happen to you.

[00:06:16] Samara: Fair enough.

[00:06:17] Isobel: yeah, fair enough. I say I also, when it comes to design, I mean, we're both very good at, you know, giving each other our feedback or opinions or ideas, whether it's design or copy. But also a lot of times I'll go to Samira and be like, here's an idea. I don't know if it would look good. Like feel free to say no or make tweaks or like, I'm very open to like, you're the expert when it comes to things like this.

So I think also just having that kind of mutual respect of like, this is your strength and like I can throw ideas out, but in the end, I'm gonna let you go with what you're best at and what you know.

[00:06:58] Hannah: Love it.

[00:06:59] Samara: We both definitely have like lanes, you know, design lane, copy lane, but sometimes we like merge into each other's lanes too. But I think from a pretty respectful place, you know, like I always really value Isabelle's design feedback because she does have such an aesthetic eye and is like so strong, like has such strong design instincts herself.

So it. It's really helpful to have that like second brain for ideation or to get feedback on when I'm not totally sure of the direction I wanna take something with the client project so that, that's actually such a cool part of getting to work in partnership.

[00:07:32] Hannah: Yeah, I'm sure. I love that. Well, I've got two more. the first is, who's more likely to DM a client at midnight with an idea? Did that ever happen to you?

[00:07:43] Samara: because we're both, we're both mour people.

[00:07:47] Hannah: Oh, so that

[00:07:48] Samara: both

[00:07:48] Hannah: been a good question too. Are you morning people or night owls? Yeah, both morning.

[00:07:53] Isobel: morning, both. Morning. Yeah. I don't probably equal, I think again, with reaching out to clients or connections at all, I feel like we both will just be like, oh, yeah, we'll end up having voicemail later on of like, oh yeah, I like talked to this person, or I talked to that person, and we're like, great.

So yeah. It's not even, I think something we consciously think about who's doing it. We just, if we're both, if we're in the mood or have those connections, we'll reach out. But yeah, I would definitely be morning and not midnight.

[00:08:26] Hannah: Finitely.

[00:08:28] Samara: Yeah, it might be a 7:00 AM dm.

[00:08:30] Hannah: Oh my gosh. Yeah. That wouldn't be me. That wouldn't be me.

[00:08:34] Samara: No.

[00:08:36] Hannah: Well, cool. final one is, big vision or fine details.

[00:08:41] Samara: Oh, that one's easy. Yeah. Yeah, Isabel's fine details and I'm usually big vision. Yeah.

[00:08:50] Hannah: oh, I love that. Well, it, I think this is one where you want both or like the best of both in a team. So, you found each other.

[00:08:58] Samara: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:59] Hannah: I. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much. I feel like that gave us a little bit of a sense for who you are and how you work together. Just a little bit of an appetizer before we get into, into depth, what I ask each, each guest on the podcast, and what I would also like to ask you is what's a quiet strength that each of you brings to the business that others might overlook or it might potentially be underestimated?

yeah, just throw that out to you and whoever wants to start gives it a try.

[00:09:29] Samara: Okay. You go first, Isabel.

[00:09:32] Isobel: I, I mean even this leads perfectly from the previous question of like big visions or details of, I, I respect so much Samara's ability to like see the big visions on calls in questionnaires when we're going through information that clients get and being able to like imagine the different possibilities with.

Not just how to turn this into like a website and into design, but like what is the potential they have for their business here and how does that line up with their values or what type of clients they wanna meet and how can they serve them? And she's so great at just having, being able to see all these Yeah, possibilities where you could take a project or take work and exploring them.

And I know someone like, especially on the fly, I think she's so good at that. I'm like, I can maybe do that if I sit down and think about it, but right in the middle, like off the cuff in a call and I'm like. I'm, I'm worried about like, how am I communicating and what am I getting information wise? So being able to just take that, sit back and be like, oh yeah, she's just like exploring these ideas kind of freely on the call is something that I'm like, this is incredible and such a strength that I think that's kind of maybe go, doesn't get the attention that, or the recognition that it deserves.

Especially from someone who I'm like, I, I don't have that in me. Or I would like to have more of that in me.

[00:11:02] Hannah: I love that. Summarize. Is there anything that comes to mind for you?

[00:11:06] Samara: I like this idea that we're answering for each other now too. This is kind of

[00:11:10] Hannah: with that idea.

[00:11:12] Samara: I know. I think you just did the exact thing that you're saying you want to be able to do. That was so nice. yeah, I mean, Isabelle has many, many strengths. I think one that I didn't know of before I'd gotten to work like really intimately in a client facing way with her.

because before we joined together to launch our brand as a combined, as combined business, we had worked separately subcontracting for one another for, for many years. So it would often be that like Isabel would hop into a design project I was already doing, but she wouldn't be in the client interactions with us.

Like I would be doing the project management, talking to the client, and then sending her the information to write the copy and maybe she'd have her own separate. Zoom call or email exchange with the, the client, but I wouldn't be a part of that. So all that to say, the really like lovely quiet strength that I've gotten to observe when we both get to be together interacting with our clients is just how good she is at.

Like really instantly creating this like safety and connection for the clients where they feel so comfortable to, share their story, which can feel, which can feel vulnerable, share the things that they're hoping to take their business to, share the like worries or fears they have about the project.

She's just really good at, at the people piece and not putting people at ease. And, I think in like a busy online world where there's so much focus on strategy and getting your message out there in a way where you're heard like that real quiet, I guess like introspective connection piece is kind of underrated.

So that's been a cool thing to observe. You know, in getting to work together from the start to finish with the client project.

[00:13:01] Hannah: I love that. Making people feel comfortable, feel safe, feel seen. I, I, yeah, I, I can see that. I can see that. I love that. Well, the way we sort of came together and, and what really, intrigued me to like, you know, speaking with you and learn more about the way you work and operate is the sense of that. You said that you're both introverts and you've built this business together.

when did you realize that you don't really work the way most entrepreneurs are, quote unquote, supposed to work? When did you figure out that you needed to do something differently and potentially go a little bit against the grain with, you know, setting up your business structures and your ways of working and, and your brand at the end of the day?

[00:13:47] Samara: Yeah, that's such a good question. do you wanna jump? Yeah, we

[00:13:51] Isobel: Yeah. Well, I have, I feel like that has been, kind of a slow evolution for me of learning that. And, you know, I, I learned back in like grad school that I was like, okay, I do work differently in terms of I thrive being able to work independently and being able to just kind of like set my own timelines and deadlines and outlines for everything, and being able to just sit down and do that.

So I already kind of knew that about myself. But then entering the online business world, there is, I find a lot of, challenges in terms of like, how do I promote myself as a brand, but also kind of keep my personal life, my personal life, because I don't want all of that out there. But where is that balance between like connection and business and what I share with others and what I keep for myself.

And honestly, I think this is discussion. So like I. Samara and I have had, because I have so respected her for the way that she does that balance online and feels like, has always, for as long as I've known her, been able to walk that line of like, yes, I wanna, I can be vulnerable and I can share parts of my personal life with my audience and with my clients, but also very clear at like where her boundaries are, both for her energy and for her privacy.

and it's just been like incredible to watch that, incredible to learn from that. So I think it's something that for me, in, in that world, I'm still learning how to kind of balance that. When it comes down to actual, like business processes, I feel a lot more confident and on setting like limits on where I work and how many calls and things like that to protect my energy.

But the. That balance of like, okay, how public do I wanna be in building a personal brand? How personal is a personal brand and how professional is my personal brand as well, has been definitely an evolution.

[00:15:48] Hannah: I love that. Well, Samara, you need to tell us how you do it. is that something that came to you? Is that, did you ever think about, you know, intentionally, this is what I'm gonna share, versus this is what I'm gonna keep private? Or

[00:16:02] Samara: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:03] Hannah: is that something that you would say, you know, you just kind of went with it and.

Happen to out

[00:16:10] Samara: Yeah, I mean there's, there's not a lot of like, structure or strategy or

[00:16:15] Hannah: master plan.

[00:16:16] Samara: Master plan behind it? No, I mean, so much of what I do, it is like, you know, tuning into intuitively what feels right to share. And that's something I love supporting my mentorship clients with too, because so many of them want to run their business from a more like intuitive connected place.

but one thing I guess is having a, a few, I guess, boundaries around things that I know I definitely don't want to share or want to keep separate. Like for instance, going into a journey to become a parent. for me there was like quite a lengthy and like emotionally difficult fertility journey to, to get to having a baby and like experiencing loss and it being quite traumatic and processing through all that.

And then wanting to be able to share elements of that with my audience for the sake of, Normalizing conversations around women's health and infertility, these things that like people need to know about, but also needing to protect my own, like energy and healing. So the reason I share that is like, that's a really specific instance of like a time where I kind of had to walk that line between what I normally do, which is sort of just share a lot of my life.

Like there's a kind of a, an overlap in a lot of my content between lifestyle, what's happening with me and the things that are going on in business. But that was a real time where I had to think about like, how do I want to approach sharing this? What, what am I ready to open up about? What am I not? And a helpful sort of like checkpoint or question there was like, am I sharing this from a place of like looking for a specific validation or response from somebody?

Like, or am I sharing this just with. No expectation, you know, not setting myself up for any kind of like disappointment if somebody didn't respond in, in the right way. I don't know if that makes sense, but getting to the point where it could be shared purely from like, I hope that this piece of my story helps someone, but I don't need anything back in return like that.

That was sort of a helpful check checkpoint to check in with. and then also just having some boundaries around, like I want to share about being a parent because a lot of my clients are moms and supporting them through that identity shift is a really important part of my work. But also, I don't wanna have my kids face on the internet or show him all the time.

So like having some firm boundaries like that I think is

[00:18:37] Hannah: Yeah, yeah.

[00:18:38] Samara: So, a real mix of that intuitive, but I guess having a couple of those like firm boundaries around things I'm sharing as well. Yeah.

[00:18:47] Hannah: Thank you for sharing that example. I think it's a really good one to, to understand what, what you mean and how sometimes it's a little bit of a journey of, you know, being in the situation and deciding for yourself what feels comfortable versus what feels kind of forced. I think this is actually something that, is a really good question.

I'd love to hear your, well, your professional advice on it in terms of how much personal does a personal brand need to be. I often feel like, when we talk to introverts in the workplace, I know that there is this tension of like, you know, do I even need to share much about me personally in the workplace?

It shouldn't be as relevant as my work output, as my performance, but at the end of the day, it's like, you know, people working together with people and being relatable and having common ground and personal interests shared with others helps a lot in building relationships, building trust. So I reckon that's the same for personal brands.

In the, in, in the, on, in the online business space. How, how, what would you recommend a client do, when it comes to how much to share about, you know, their personalities and about their personal lives online?

[00:19:58] Isobel: You wanna do you have

[00:20:00] Samara: I have thoughts. Yeah, for sure. I, I know I was like, I was just talking. I feel like I should throw this to you. Okay, sure. Yeah. yeah, Hannah, it's, it's like such a good question and I think one that people who are newer to business really struggle to figure out or take some experimenting to figure out, and particularly those who do, those of us who do have that quieter energy. It can feel like, oh, I just don't want to have to be like my, I don't want my face to be visible all the time. Like, that's one that really comes up often with my clients. And I've sort of thought about that too and struggled with that too. but I think the reality is, like you just said, like in a workplace, that human connection, that relationship building is so key to being able to have your work make a deeper impact like in, in a corporate world.

And that really translates into the online business world too. even just from the perspective of in order to have a client feel like in a busy world where there's so many choices, there's so many web designers, there's so many copywriters out there, somebody might come to us not only for our work, but also because they feel a connection to us.

So I think it's such an important part of bringing in aligned sales and aligned. Client partnerships as well. so I, I think that finding the way that feels good to show up for you where you're letting, maybe not your, maybe it's not your face that's visible all the time, but you're able to share your perspectives.

You're able to share bits of your story, you're able to share personal reflections on what's going on collectively. Like those are the kinds of things that are gonna foster that real trust and connection with your audience. Because your work, your work can be replicated by a lot of different people. You know, but like your thoughts and your humanness can't, like, that's what makes you you.

And that's what I think ultimately ends up bringing your people to you. Whether that's growing your audience, bringing in the clients, setting yourself apart in the corporate space too. I think probably a lot of that applies as well.

[00:22:14] Hannah: I think it, I think it does. Do you think, do people struggle a lot with like, personality on their websites? Like about pages? Do you guide them through? Like, I remember my first website, I was like, I don't need an about page. You know, that's,

[00:22:30] Samara: Yeah,

[00:22:31] Hannah: on there. Is that something that people play back to?

[00:22:34] Samara: Yes.

[00:22:35] Isobel: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a lot of, there is that, well, I don't, I don't need an about page at all.

[00:22:41] Hannah: It's just about the work.

[00:22:42] Isobel: yeah, just the work. I've also seen, I see typically kind of two types of about pages, and one is either the like. Incredibly professional and I'm just gonna list like my credentials and my work experience and any awards or publications or anything like that.

Or the flip side of, I'm gonna have this like quite professional rest of my website. But then my about page is just like fun facts and fun stories and no tie in to like what you do or why you do your work the way you do. and it's really. About like blending those two together. Your about page shouldn't just be, you know, your favorite color and your favorite type of food, but it also shouldn't just be your work experience or your credentials.

There needs to be that deeper time to why do you do this work and what do you bring to the table? How is that informed by your values and the things you've experienced in your life and how has all that kind of shaped your perspective? And it can be incredibly hard to figure that out for yourself. and I know even writing, I feel like my own about page, it takes that, like how do I take this step back and see that?

But I think that the about page is really. It's not just about making kind of like a surface level connection with your clients. I mean, that's always fun. It's always nice to see like, oh, hey, we did end up, you know, we've both been to the same place, or we both have dogs that with silly names or things like that.

But it's really that place where you wanna make that deeper connection of like, why do you do the work you do and the way that you do it, and what has shaped that? And that's where your people, your clients, your coworkers are gonna see like, oh, we're, we're aligned in that deeper way. And I feel that connection.

I feel like you're gonna understand me because of what you've been through and what you bring to the table.

[00:24:53] Hannah: Hmm, I looked at your about page, before we went on to record, and obviously you guys are the experts on it, but what I really loved is this, we see, in tandem instantly creates a picture of your branding and what it is about and how you described how you, Isabel are riding in the front with copywriting and Samara is cruising in the back with, with design and just kind of this instant picture of like, you know, how you split the work, who does what you have your dogs on their too, in terms of like the full team.

And it just creates that instant connection that I really, really love about, you know, and coming onto a website and, and looking at everybody looks at the about page, right? I feel like if you looked at analytics, this is probably the page that I. People often navigate too. So, yeah, I really love that.

And, yeah, I can only emphasize how important it is, even though it can feel really hard to pick out some of the things that, you know, are going to create that connection. And I go beyond, you know, I'm a coffee lover or something like that.

[00:26:03] Samara: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's often hard to see that in yourself and that's where, that's one of the things that I think we've both had reflected back to us working with clients of the value of going to work with somebody else for copy or design, is you can have that external set of eyes, that external perspective to like pull out those things, whether it's about your story or about how you talk about your work that you might not be able to see when you're so close to it, you know?

yeah.

[00:26:30] Hannah: Talk to me a little bit about your client process and how you pull some of the gold out of somebody that you'd be working with to understand what their personality is, what stands out about them, what should their website look like? What should the words, what should the tone be? how do you, how do you get so deep into somebody and so close to somebody to then create and write for them in a way that feels really impactful?

[00:26:58] Isobel: You wanna talk a.

[00:27:00] Samara: Sure, yeah, I can share a bit about our process. So I think the, there's sort of two pieces to that, to that really, deep connection or that place where we can get to know their business and their, ethos well enough to be able to capture it in writing on Isabelle's end and capture and design on my end.

And the first is. Giving the clients the chance to reflect on those things for themself before bringing it to us. So we have a really in-depth questionnaire that we always send off with the, like, you know, the caveat of like, this is a lot of information, but this is going to really help you get some clarity on your business in addition to giving us the things that we need.

So that already gets our clients really thinking about the things that we need to understand in order to build the website for them, particularly around their ideal audience, their target people that they're trying to reach. the, the ways in which they approach their work that are unique to them.

so they're, they're reflecting all that ahead of time and we get a chance to review that before meeting face to face, and we get a chance to discuss it together to, again, that really lovely piece of a partnership is. You know, I notice things that Isabel doesn't and she notices things that I don't. So two brains are even better than one.

but then I think really where that client connection and discovery happens is on our strategy call. So we have a really in depth, 90 minute kickoff call where we then get to dig deeper into all of the things that they have begun to reflect on in their questionnaire. and in particular, this is where Isabelle starts to work her magic around, around pulling out the things that she needs to be able to write in our clients, in our clients' voices.

And I feel like you should talk about that because that's really your, that's really your thing. It's, and it's so different than, than what I do on the call where I'm mostly trying to get a sense of their style visually, and, and that's very different than actually trying to write in their voice.

[00:28:56] Isobel: Yeah. I think when I approach, yeah, the voice and pulling out the stories and the information that still sounds like them and the way they want to come across to their audience, but also making sure we're. Finding those connection points with their audience when their client really, I mean there's a lot of different aspects that go to it, but the three things that kind of are always on my mind going into these conversations are questions that I ask myself whenever I write anything is like, first it's why, just why to anything.

Because a lot of times clients will say like, well, I, this is my process and that's it. And I'm like, well, why is that your process? Like how did you come to land on that process? Why did you choose that process? And just digging that little bit deeper, I'm blending in with that is a little bit about like, okay, now, so what, what happens because of that process?

How does that impact your clients or your final creation of work? What is the, what is the reason that we're doing that? so I always kind of think of those both. As I'm talking to clients to dig deeper and pull those threads out. But also when I'm literally writing, writing a sentence and go, okay, like why did we write this?

So what, what does this mean? What do we, what are we trying to convey here with this line? And then the third thing that I always get asked about is like, well, how do I, how do I capture someone's voice? as, as an out outside person, you know, I'm not them, but I'm writing for them. And it honestly, like, I wish there was, I wish there was some like secret, cool superpower way of doing this, but it really just comes down to like listening to them reading.

What they've written, reading their emails, reading anything they've written or having any conversations and actually looking at like what are the phrases that they say? How do they talk about their work? What gets them excited? What, what do they feel maybe a little bit hesitant about saying? And is there other ways we can say it instead that feel more comfortable?

But it's, it's nothing fancy. It's literally just like, okay, these are the words that I'm seeing come up and these are the phrases and the emotions that they're telling me. So these clearly are important and let's bring them out more. but yeah, so those are kind of like the three things that I'll turn to when I am in those conversations and trying to figure out like what, what is the important parts that still sound like the clients?

And we can convey through copy.

[00:31:27] Hannah: Yeah. It's almost like a therapy session, isn't it? To like really get into the deaths of someone. Do you ever feel like, Because I would imagine when, you know, a client potentially has a little bit of a point of view of like what their style is or what their tone of voice should be. And I often feel like it's very much informed of, you know, what you see online, what you see other businesses do, potentially what you see on camera and, and things like that.

do you sometimes feel like, and I was just reminded Samara when you talked about this process of like design and style. when I went to buy my wedding dress last year, it's always like, it's always like the sentiment of, well, you go in and you have a vision of what you want. And what you would really, really like.

And then you walk out and you have something entirely different because you've never put a dress like that on and you have no idea what you look like in a dress like that and what you're going to be feel comfortable with. Do you feel like this is a similar thing with like website design and what, you know, a style of somebody looks like?

Is it like, almost like you need to help them find their style and potentially even show them some of the things that they didn't think of before going in and, you know, same with copy. I feel like because, it, it can be really tough to like understand what is my style versus what have I been seeing and perceiving other businesses do, other people do on socials, et cetera, versus what does really feel like me?

Do you know what I'm getting at? I feel like I'm, I've made it complicated, but

No, I, I think I understand sort of like striking that balance between what they think they need versus what they actually need or what they think they want versus what might surprise them as being something that they, that maybe is better than what they'd imagined. Yeah.

[00:33:12] Samara: yeah. From a, from a design perspective, that does come up sometimes, especially in the, the branding process.

So if we're going back to our sandwich of like branding, then copy, then website, the beginning, the branding's where the visual identity is established. And in that process, sometimes there are these tricky conversations that have to happen around like personal tastes that the clients might have. That I can see from my expertise and perspective won't translate well into the goal that they have or into actually looking good on a website.

So with that, I find it's helpful to have, sort of some strategic conversations ahead of time to be able to point back to like a little bit of a brand strategy process where we're like, okay, if this is the goal, if the goal is to rebrand so that you can connect more deeply with this specific target audience, and we know that this specific target audience really wants that, like super clean, minimal, airy connected, soft light aesthetic, but you're over here telling me like neon yellow is your thing.

Like, like we have to say like, does this, does what you want support the goal? So I find that like establishing that goal first is really, really helpful for navigating these conversations where sometimes like the client's personal tastes get in the way of what is, strategically gonna be the best choice for them.

Does that make, does that make sense?

[00:34:42] Hannah: Yeah, it does. It does. I've been seeing a lot of neon colors in the career space, so I felt

[00:34:49] Samara: no shade to neon

[00:34:50] Hannah: needed to have neon colors,

[00:34:53] Samara: and sometimes it does work, but like also, yeah, I think it's important to balance your personal what, what personally feels good to you and looks good to you with what is best for your brand. Yeah.

[00:35:05] Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:08] Isobel: I also would say Samara has, I think some Samara designed my website, my standalone website too. And I think, I can't remember, you know, the exact words that I said when we were talking about myself, but I remember thinking like, oh, I don't know how she's gonna do this. Because I think some examples I gave her were like quite busy and dynamic.

And I was like, well, I like colors and I like movement and I like, but also I like handwritten things. And also like I am kind of a little bit more minimalistic and simple. Like I was, I think I gave so many things and I was like, I have no idea how she's gonna do this. And then, but being able to pull it together and seeing like, oh yeah, there are, there's movement, but it's kind of subtle and there is color, but it's balanced and like.

Just incredible that she took what to me, sounded like these things will never work together. and was able to find a way that not only made me like excited and happy and feel like reflected in it, but also I get so many compliments as well about it and about all the things that I love. My audience also loves about it, so I, I think there's a little bit of like magic in that as well being.

[00:36:22] Hannah: A hundred percent.in your co-founder dynamic, and I feel like initially we already got a little bit of a taste for how you work together, how, you know, some of those, things just kind of click into plays. You know, one of you with this, you know, one thing better, the other one just kind of slots in there.

What are some of the, you know, unwritten rules or some of the boundaries that you have put in place for yourself so that each of you gets to work at her own pace and in their, in her own kind of like, you know, space, you know, preferences. What are some of the, you know, things that you have put in place for you to make this experience?

a good one, just as co-founders together and in building this business together.

[00:37:05] Samara: Yeah.

[00:37:06] Isobel: I mean, the first thing that comes up for me, and this is kind of like in the, in the weeds of processes, is just our communication style of neither of us. We'll, typically we won't typically like hop on a Zoom call, but we use voice notes all the time to keep updated on what do we wanna work on for in tandem and marketing for us, or what do we, what's happening with responding to emails or reaching out to clients.

And, even, even the details of like, okay, yeah, the contract was signed, like payments on the way. And we do a lot of voice notes knowing like. They will, we will be checking in on them once a day every other day, but we can do it in our own space. There's not that demand of like, okay, well why haven't I heard back in 20 minutes or an hour?

It's like, no, we, that trust of, okay, I know she will get there and I will get there. When, when it fits into our day and we have the energy and we have like the mental capacity to listen and like respond and even there's times where we're like, okay, just letting you know, like, I've listened, but I'll come back and actually give a response later on.

so that's worked really well for us to be able to like continue living our lives and working on our businesses while still being in touch and still having that communication flow between us.

[00:38:30] Hannah: Yeah, it's almost like asynchronous communication. You don't need to be live with each other all the time, which I feel is very introvert friendly. I would love some of the corporate space to be more like that. It's like, yes, I'll, I'll get back to you. We don't need this. We don't need this call right now.

[00:38:49] Samara: Yeah, absolutely. 'cause I think sometimes for introverts having that space to process and not feel the pressure to need to respond in the moment is just so, yeah. So supportive in addition to, like, calls are great, but the face-to-face time can be an energy drain too. So, yeah, that's exactly what I was gonna say as well.

Isabelle.

[00:39:12] Hannah: Is there any other areas where you would say you, are trying to give yourself permission to do things differently? Is there anything where we would say, I'm currently trying out to do, you know, something a little different than I've done before? Or does anything come to mind where you think you've, put something in place that would be different to how other businesses work in this space?

[00:39:40] Isobel: I mean, I was gonna think about even just the setup of and of our offers, which is not, we do basically week intensives, like VIP week intensive, which is not a new, you know, a new concept. There's a lot of designers out there, copywriters that do it, do VIP days and VIP weeks, but was pretty new for both of us.

We both came from kind of offers that were. Longer term projects, months, two months, three months, even long projects. So coming into this like one week approach and knowing why we wanted to do it, like hearing from clients that they wanted something that they could trust, that they could start a project in Monday and know their website is completely launched and ready by Friday, design copy off the ground, you know, they wanted a quick turnaround while still getting that quality.

So, but that was definitely like a new thing for both of us to figure out what does this look like? With fitting in with our lives, fitting in with our independent businesses, fitting in with our energy and having to be on for that week. but honestly, it's been like, I love them. I love doing them now because I'm like, this is that dedicated week where it is like we're in contact, we're kind of heads down working, and then at the end of that week being like, and the project's done.

And of course, a lot of times we end up kind of in continual contact with our clients after, because we do get to know them so well and we're so excited to see them grow. But having that like, okay, it's one week and we get to see this project now just kind of go off on its own and run. And yeah, that was, that was new for both of us and I think we've been really enjoying having that intensive week as well.

[00:41:32] Hannah: I think it's a massive one. It feels so aligned for introverts to me, and it may not be obvious at first, but I can really, I really resonate with it because I also have, I. Spurs of energy. I have like phases where I have a lot of energy, like either during the day or maybe one week time where I feel like, you know, this week I'm going to go all in.

I can do the socializing, I can do the workshopping, I can do the meetings with many people, and so on and so on. If I know that after that week it's over and I can go back to my home office and to my, you know, little quiet space and it's a different pace again. So it's almost like working in intensives feels like, you know, you can let it all out, you know, put it all out on the field in that one week and then regain your energy afterwards.

It feels to me like, a really sustainable way of working as well in terms of like giving that one client a lot of attention and then, you know, coming back to yourselves again.

[00:42:34] Isobel: Yeah, and we make sure we. We only do one of these a month, and that was kind of when we set out doing this, what, what would that look like? Because we couldn't be doing week after, week after week of intensives. both, you know, just timing and lifewise, but also we're like, we know after one week of this we're, we're going need time to recuperate and kind of just sit.

I think, I think a lot of times after we hit that last call, I'm like, okay, I just, the brain is gonna turn off now for the next few days and I'm just gonna relax and not think about anything related to work. So we knew right from the start, like this was not, well this wouldn't be sustainable if it was every week or even every other week.

But that once a month really lift us. The time, gives us the time to be able to put our full energy into it.

[00:43:29] Samara: Yeah, I think that like built in rest time is really different than how a lot of. Businesses that our industry operate. And even like this real commitment to, capacity and sustainability of energy over, like growth at all costs. Do you know what I mean? Like being like, we're gonna build this in a way that'll allow us to sustain it, as opposed to like, let's just take as many projects as we can

[00:43:52] Hannah: yeah,

[00:43:54] Samara: you know, that would bring more money or that would be more fun, or whatever it is.

It's like keeping the energy in mind and the actual structure, I think is totally a different approach or an approach less people are doing.

[00:44:06] Hannah: yeah. And it takes so much self-reflection, doesn't it, to understand, you know, this is how my energy works and this is how I can sustain this level of input over a certain amount of time, or over a longer period of time to make this a sustainable business, to make that something that lasts. And so I feel like this is really, really powerful to have.

And it's also. It is also great to have somebody who works the same way and for it not to, you know, for you not to contradict each other on this one because, you know, could also be different that in, in terms of working styles. And so I feel like, it is really meaningful to find the person that that fits with.

Right.

[00:44:49] Isobel: And I think going in that we had the goals, like our, our in tandem came together because we both had the desire to serve our clients deeper, more meaningfully in a better way, that they would be able to feel more confident and more ready at the end of working with us. And it really, like in tandem, came together because of that rather than any desire for like.

More money or more being more well known or anything it came from, like why? Why do we want to do this? What can we help people with? And then building from there.

[00:45:28] Hannah: Mm. What is a dream client for you? I was just wondering like, you know, do you have this kind of, you know, dream persona that you would love to work with? certain industries that you feel like you're super, super passionate about or Yeah, just kind of like, you know, what, what does that look like? If you could just, you know, draw a client for yourselves or, you know, attract the right people into your, into your sphere.

[00:45:56] Samara: You, Hannah, you would be our dream client

[00:45:59] Hannah: Yes.

[00:46:00] Samara: because

[00:46:01] Hannah: Was I fishing for that? Maybe?

[00:46:05] Samara: we'll give it to you. Yeah, I know. 'cause I think, I mean, there's certain industries that I think both of us think would be super fun to work with, with, like we've talked about. like the hospitality industry would be super fun. Like, like an Airbnb or like a small boutique hotel or someone doing retreats.

Like there's, there's those sort of ideas that like, oh, we haven't worked in this industry before. That would be super cool a restaurant. But I think for both of us, it's more about like per like personality fit and energy fit too. Like I love working with clients who have. Like a deeper purpose or, or, a clear why behind their work or a clear, desire to do good and impact the world or their communities in meaningful ways.

people who are really thoughtful and, intentional and are, you know, jumping into creating their website because they know that it's going to open up so much more possibility for them. Like, those are the things that, that, you know, that, that make the sort of dreamy client relationship for me. but we also have kind of a fun, a bucket list of some fun industries too.

[00:47:12] Hannah: I was just gonna say, I'm sure you have a list somewhere in a Google Doc.

[00:47:17] Samara: I think on our website even we have like

[00:47:20] Isobel: website, I think we were very blatant with being like,

[00:47:22] Samara: gonna manifest

[00:47:23] Isobel: to. Yeah. Like, yeah. I think also another thing that I've noticed recently with our clients and this common thread in them is a lot come to us saying like, I, I know I'm good at my work, but I don't think I am reaching as many people or helping as many people as I could be because of my website or my messaging or the way I'm kind of showing up online.

And I think that's like, I. That's such a beautiful thing to have someone that feels confident in like, I'm doing good work. I know I'm good at it. I've been working in this, I'm confident in my skills and I just wanna help more people as well and make sure I'm helping the people who can benefit from my work as well.

and I think that's like every client we've had so far has said some aspect of that, which I was like, this is, I never, I hadn't really noticed that before, but it's neat to see that. I'm like, oh, let's continue that. But yes, in terms of like actual industries, like somewhere said like boutique hotels would be fun.

Hospitality retreats. I am, I think Samara as well. I'm dying to work with some type of like Pilates or studio, yoga studio, spa, little wellness. Spa or holistic spa. Those would definitely be upper alley I think.

[00:48:46] Hannah: I love that I can already, I already envision it.what I was thinking, I. For each of your areas, because both copywriting and design are so prominent across socials, and I feel like there's so much out there that you are probably perceiving on a daily basis. Is there anything that's like a pet peeve for you?

Like for each, like copywriting and design for like, when you see it that's like, oh, I wish we could, you know, get over with this, or, I feel like this is something that we can scrap, or just kind of, if you could, you know, tell people to stop doing something in, when, when it comes to design or when it comes to copywriting, what would it be?

[00:49:29] Samara: Yeah, I've got one right away. Yeah. And I think it's just like a trend that I'm, that, well, I'll say what it is, instead of trying to like, oops, my chair give like a preface for it. but the like,how to describe almost like two. Sparse clean. oh, sorry. Okay. I'm saying websites specifically, so websites where you land on them, and maybe there's this like real clear vibe right away of like beautiful imagery, but the, the lack of text itself is so sparse that you just like have no idea what they are, like who they are or what they do.

It's almost like trying to achieve a specific aesthetic is like sacrificing the actual clarity and communication that the, that the, site visitor needs in order to know that they're in the right place or, or be nurtured or make a buying decision. So I, I see that less on socials except sometimes when I guess other designers post portfolio work and I'm like, oh, it's so beautiful.

And also what does this brand do? You know? So I think the like, aesthetic over clarity is a pet peeve of mine because, and that's where copy and design really have to come together, right? It has to be that balance of. yes, being so beautifully visually immersive, but also having such a clear ability to communicate what you do and why you do it, and why your people should be there.

they gotta work in tandem, so that's a pet peeve of mine for sure. I.

[00:51:00] Hannah: Aesthetic versus clarity. I love that.

[00:51:03] Isobel: I'm, I'm honestly, I'm gonna copy somewhere here with that and like the copy, I've seen, I think recently a lot of websites as well where it's very similar where even the copy, sometimes the copy is like really bold or sassy or fun and bright. But I, I'll look through and go, but what are, what are you doing?

Like, I don't understand what you're offering or who you're talking to. It's like, it's fun, it's funny, it's catching my attention, but I come through it and go like, I don't, I don't understand what you're doing or how it would help me. And I think always, there's always a place for like personality and having fun and whether that is being like a little sassy or snarky or whether that's being pun heavy or dad jokes or,

[00:51:53] Samara: are. We're

[00:51:54] Isobel: yeah, we're not having, but like forgetting about like who are you talking to and what are you actually.

What do they need to know to feel good about buying with you? And yes, like connection, personality, vibes is one part of that, but we also need to know like what your work actually is as well. Mm-hmm.

[00:52:14] Samara: Yeah, you can't like take it too far. Yeah.

[00:52:17] Hannah: yeah. How do you feel about people working with AI these days to like craft their captions and like their social content? What's your view on hyphens, like these sort of

[00:52:29] Isobel: that, that was my other pet peeve was gonna be the, and this is very common on socials, the things about like, oh, if I see an M dash, that means chat, GPT did it. Or if I see this structure that means chat, GPT did it. and that is also my pet peeve because chat, GPT is based off of what, how people write, how writers write.

So of course you're gonna start to see similar patterns. What that doesn't. That doesn't mean that in some cases, yes, that means people are using chat GBT, but also that just means some people are writing improper grammar or proper style and stuff as

[00:53:06] Hannah: I love that. I love that you're saying that because I've been reflecting on it and I've been looking at some of what I write and I'm like, oh, should I take out the hyphens now? Just because I.

[00:53:17] Samara: I do that too now. Yeah.

[00:53:19] Hannah: I obviously don't want people to think, you know, this is a, I use CHATT a lot because I'm not a native speaker.

I do it like to correct things. I do it like to, to like, you know, here's what I'm thinking, how, and obviously I use it, but then at the end of the day I always keep thinking, ah, should I just remove this? Or should we all just own up to the fact that this is a useful and helpful tool

[00:53:41] Isobel: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:41] Hannah: we're, we're using it.

so yeah. I love that you, that you say it like that.

[00:53:45] Isobel: And that's, I. I think AI and chat BT specifically have so many great uses, especially like you said. maybe if, if you need to write something that is not in your native language or not in like a style you're comfortable with, if you need ideas like, or help editing or even just like talking through, I mean, Samara and I are lucky we have each other to like talk through ideas, but maybe there's a place for chat bt to help you with that brainstorming.

I also think, you know, there's a lot of people out there that when it comes down to like money wise are not yet able to hire a copywriter and what is, what is the alternatives out there? And it would come down to, you know, are there blogs they could read? Are there freebies? Are there fill in the blank things or can they use AI either?

So I'm not. I'm not someone that's like going to bash ai, but I also think it has, it has its limits. And, we found, you know, I think both in, in tandem and in my own copy side, that the people who are clients who want to hire experts, want to hire experts. They don't want to be in chat GBT trying to figure out how to talk to it and how to get the information back and does this still sound like me and is this still checking all the boxes?

They want Someone that has that expertise already has that knowledge and has that human touch to be able to do it instead.

[00:55:24] Hannah: I think human

[00:55:25] Samara: there's certain,

[00:55:26] Hannah: go ahead, Samara.

[00:55:27] Samara: oh, no, go. Okay. Well, I was just gonna say there's certain, there's certain things that chat, GPT really can't.

[00:55:33] Hannah: Mm.

[00:55:33] Samara: Do that are so important to the work we do together for creating a website as well. Like the, like a clear SEO, a clear search intent strategy with the copy, translating that copy into design.

Like there's real limitations with what your robot assistant can do for you too. So I think, like Isabella was saying, our clients recognize that and, really don't, I don't, I don't think even fully consider chat GPT as the option for them because they know it's like not gonna get them what they, what

[00:56:02] Hannah: still a lot of work. Yeah,

[00:56:03] Samara: It's still a lot of work. Yeah.

[00:56:05] Hannah: yeah. Yeah. A hundred

[00:56:06] Isobel: And, and I think even circling back to what we were talking about earlier, about being able to pull those threads out, like chat, GBT is not gonna be able to pull out the threads on your perspective and your story because. You're the one that has to tell that information to it anyways. So having it is to somewhat kind of an outside perspective, but it, it is informed by what you give it.

So again, having that, that external person being able to ask the why, ask the so what, dig deeper, find those commonalities is just such an important pre-step to even getting to the writing, to getting to the designing.

[00:56:49] Hannah: yeah. I bet, I bet.where I wanna wrap this up because I'm afraid we're already at the end of our time. this was lovely to check with you and I feel like there's so much to take away in, in terms of, you know, building a business in line with who you are, how you work well, and how you work well together.

What do you wish more entrepreneurs knew about building something that is potentially quietly iconic or that is like, at a different pace than other businesses, or it's just, I. A little unconventional.

[00:57:22] Samara: Hmm. I mean, I wish other, especially creative solopreneur, introverted business owners at any stage, but particularly in the beginning, I wish that they knew that that quiet confidence really is such a strength because it is different from the norm. And because with that quiet confidence often comes the ability to perceive things that other people are missing or connect more deeply or intuit.

Yeah. And I think, yeah, that's just, that's just such a strength that you can leverage and lean into. so I wish that more people knew that and were able to connect to that earlier on. Instead of feeling like to be building a business, it has to be the loudest or the noisiest or the biggest, you know?

and then discovering through that, not working because of the pressure, because it doesn't match with energy that there's another way. Like, I wish we could just get to, there's another way much sooner.

[00:58:27] Isobel: I love quietly iconic, but.

[00:58:29] Samara: It's a great term.

[00:58:30] Hannah: Sorry on brand, isn't it?

[00:58:38] Isobel: The, and this is very cliche, but the idea like there is no one way to build a business and any type of business, whether that's like industry specific, whether we're talking like online versus kind of in person, but knowing like you can find inspiration from other ways that people are doing it. Maybe you try things out from other ways that people are doing things, but there is no one way you can take pieces, and take inspiration and build something that does feel aligned with your energy, with your values, with your way of working and the work that you want to do.

And that I think it's something that I wish I had learned earlier that, you know, I see, oh, you see a lot of like the bigger, more popular brands and think that's the way I need to, if I want to build a sustainable, long-term, successful business, that's the way I have to do it. But it took me a while to be like.

But this isn't fitting for me, but maybe this one piece is, and then maybe I can adapt it and I can change it, and I can add things in to create something that does fit for me while still having, you know, the sustainable success that I want as well.

[00:59:53] Hannah: Yeah. Amen to that. Thank you so much. These are beautiful reflections.leave us with where everyone can find you, work with you, see more of your work, more of your, you know, personal lives. and yeah, connect with you in general.

[01:00:10] Samara: Yeah, absolutely. so our website is in tandem studios.com and you can head there to. Read more about our story and look at the different ways to work with us. We have many different options for website packages to meet a variety of budgets and scope of projects. So there's lots of info there. and then our Instagram is where we often like to hang out, and that's in Tandem Studios.

And you can send us a DM over there if you want, with a link to your current website if you have one already. And we'll do a free website audit. We've been doing these really fun website audits where you send us your link, Isabelle and I go into a deep dive on your website and we'll send you, voice notes because we love a voice note with one copy fix, one design fix, and one user experience.

Fix that. Then you can hop in and make yourself. So that's a fun way to connect with us and get some professional eyes on your site as well.

[01:01:12] Hannah: I love that. Well, we'll link that in the show notes and then thank you so much for joining me today. That was fabulous. I loved having you on and you just, you have such a cool vibe and such a cool business and ways of working. I'm so inspired and I'm sure my audiences as well. Thank you so much for joining me.

[01:01:30] Isobel: Thank you so much. This was.

[01:01:36] Samara: Yeah. Thanks Hannah.

[01:01:38] Hannah: Wonderful.