Hello, John. We're back.

We are back. Hi Brian.

How are you?

I'm great. I'm enjoying some spring weather here in Philadelphia.

Yeah. Um, I, I guess it's, um, may showers instead of April showers, maybe June Flowers.

Oh, I'm good with the June flowers.

Okay. Hopefully we get some, some spring.

You know, every good podcast starts with, uh, idle chit chat about the weather. They say,

Is that what they say?

I think they do say that.

Nice. Nice. So, uh, so talk to me. What, uh, what's, what's hot? What have you been seeing out there?

Well, I, I, you know, I think we all are, uh, surrounded slash overwhelmed by news, uh, from the world of ai. And, um, the marketing impacts of that are pretty profound. But the one thing that. Recently jumped out to me was, uh, a couple pieces from one of my favorite, uh, authors, influencers. I'm not sure what he is. Shelly Palmer. I shared with you about the explosion of ai, image generation technology and just how we are. We are moments away from it being everywhere in marketing and advertising.

Yeah. Everywhere in everything. Yeah,

Yeah, and I, I'm seeing a lot of LinkedIn commentary from people in creative fields. Just, you know, some level of freaking out happening, I think.

Oh, for sure. Um, I, I don't know that there's right or wrong answers to any of it right now, as people are just trying to figure out what, what it really means. And, um, I mean, I, I think the best thing that people can do is, try to embrace it and try to learn how you can integrate it into the things that you're doing, uh, because it's, um, it's so unclear. At least to normal people. What, what that's gonna be in a few years. But I think that the fact that, you know, you take something like image generation, I mean, it's so, so the leaps and bounds there are just kind of outta control. I.

Yeah, it's insane how, how fast it's changing. And, uh, you made an interesting point there about like, you know, it, it's almost like we're people started to move beyond the what's right and wrong. It used to be, you know, the freak out about like, we can't replace the humans with creativity on creativity. And I. I, you know, I think we're seeing kind of Yeah, you can, which is, which is a, a, a bitter pill to swallow, I suppose. But, uh, that article I mentioned, you know, I think Shelly Palmer, I, there was just such a great line in there. Um, if the audience can't tell the difference between AI generated and human generated content, or if they don't care, then for all practical purposes, there is no difference. And like, that really hit me like, yeah. And I know I've seen stuff and not realized it's ai.

Yeah, it kind of reminds me a little bit about how. Um, people handle things like privacy, you know, like after a while it's like, do you really care?

Good point. Yeah, that is a good analogy.

'cause like people used to freak out that they could, you could be tracked online and now it's just like,

Yeah. Right.

course they're tracking me. Um, and there definitely is a little bit of a like, just get over it, but that doesn't make it right either. So I. Um, so I, I did a, an interesting thing. Um, I asked chat GPT to create a, um, a new image for our podcast.

Oh, you did?

I did.

Wait, what is it? As in like a

so I, so here's what I did, right? I put in a prompt about, um, I want to have additional creative for our podcast. And I said, I put a link in and, uh, so.

an image for a podcast of two idiots talking about the weather.

Yeah, exactly. Um, now, uh, here I'll share it with you and we'll, we'll post this

Oh my God.

in the,

I feel like, I feel like you're really springing something on me here.

no, no, no. I, I actually think that it's, um, pretty basic, which is good. Um, but, um, I don't think it's too insane, but it's interesting how, uh, how quickly it can create something. Um, and, um,

So, boy, the other, the other thing that is, I think, critical to most, most audio only podcasts is, uh, talking about a visual that's on screen.

yeah, exactly.

So I'm, I'm looking at your, I'm looking at your new, I guess this is cover art.

Yeah. Yeah.

A little

It's very simple. Yeah. It's nothing outta control, but, um, the fact that. Obviously, AI is all driven by the prompts, right? And so anything's only gonna be as good as the information you give it. Um, although, you know, I have seen with things that it, it can try to introduce new ideas and new things without you trying to prompt it.

And AI is getting better at asking you to clarify your prompt and provide more information.

yeah. You know, the thing that I try to tell people is just try to find new ways to, you know, integrate it into what you do and, and, and attempt to see where it can fit and where and where you feel like you can get value from it. Uh, uh, you know, so that you can, um, get better at what you do. 'cause I think it can do that and it can make you move faster on things and it can make you have a, a starting point that's a lot further along than, um. Than you would be if you did it on your own. So

and play around until you figure it out.

yeah, I mean, I'm definitely conflicted on the, the part that, you know, when does it become not you anymore in terms of the things that are being created.

Well, my big takeaway from what you just shared is that you got top billing, so you know, must have been a good prompt.

It. ChatGPT knows what's up.

Exactly.

uh, the, uh, the thing that I thought was really interesting in that Shelly Palmer article was, um, among other things is the, uh, the comparison to the iPod

Yeah.

um, you know, the industry. Was really kind of driven around sound quality. And the iPod changed that overnight because they were able to, um, put a thousand songs on a tiny device where no one able to do that.

And we, we exchanged, uh, audio quality for convenience, happily.

happily and, uh, it became much more of a commodity and, um. I, I think that's better in the long run, but I mean, people that really like to listen to music and the quality of music need to go to different lengths to do that. And I, I, you know, I, I think there's people out there that'll, uh, allow that to still happen. It just, you know, how much do you want to pay that, listen to it, the best, the best music quality that you can.

Well, uh, we are at, um, an interesting point where creative output being developed by machines versus humans, um, is real. And it, it seems like the, you know, the, the difference between a computer executing things and a human creating ideas, maybe relevant to our conversation today. What do you think?

I think so.

nice. Yeah, we're talking to somebody who, um, really is all about human creativity and I think working in a, in a medium in a forum that might be more insulated from. AI image generation and the rest of the world you and I operate in, right.

I think so. I think, I think a lot of this is pretty safe, hopefully.

yeah, yeah. So, all right, so let's get specific here, uh, because today we're joined by the powerhouse Jane Golden. Uh, she's a visionary leader in public art and urban transformation. And as the driving force behind the Mural Arts Philadelphia organization, Jane's turned a small city initiative into the nation's largest public arts program. Leading to the creation of 4,000 murals that revitalize communities and spark social change. From her work in the 1980s, turning graffiti into public art and pioneering innovative programs and education and justice and behavioral health. Jane's impact stretches way beyond the walls. She helps transform. She's actually. Help transform this entire city of Philadelphia in the process. She's become not just a local icon here in Philly, but she's gained international recognition with Philadelphia now being dubbed the mural capital of the world, and my favorite term, the world's largest outdoor gallery, Jane is a sought after speaker and an expert in creative placemaking. She's received. Truly more awards and honorary doctorates than we can list here. Uh, and we are just honored to have her. Jane, welcome to Snap Decisions.

Oh, thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

Well, we are thrilled you joined us. Thank you. So we often talk about, marketing topics and kind of the general way that brands and sometimes people present themselves to the world, position themselves to the world. Um, in your case, you've really helped position an entire region. And we'd love to get into kind of how you've done some of that. So, um, first of all, you've changed the way people have viewed Philadelphia in general. And also how you've changed the way residents feel about the neighborhoods in which they live. Could you just share a little bit about that and more about the program? Hmm.

humble, so I want to say, like, I take a little credit, but I work with so many wonderful people and artists, so I want to make sure they have the credit as well. I think that what we did early on is create an appetite for art, and it didn't happen in, like, it wasn't a direct line. It actually was this little group was the graffiti writers and me working with some community organizers, sort of intuitively thinking about the best way to deliver art as a city service. And so it seemed to us that the best way to start was through conversations and asking people what they thought about public art. And mostly people were like, you know, actually we're not interested at all. We want jobs. We want housing. And we would ask, be very persistent and ask people what they wanted to see. And people would say, you know what, Things are either done to us or not done, and the only visual stimulation here are billboards advertising alcohol and tobacco. And we would say, well, that could change. Look at these beautiful murals in LA, Chicago, San Francisco, and think about what we could do here. And people started to open up about their lives, about their heroes, about neighbors, about memories, about people. Sad things that happened about triumphs and we started to say to ourselves like, Oh, yeah, we should listen, be respectful and produce. And that's what we did. And we would like so people we took what we heard and turned it into these three story works of public art. And remember, that's back in the day. So it wasn't like. This was a precedent. Like what's going on here? You know, someone said to me that in the early days, painting a mural was like attending a sporting event because it was like out of the ordinary. It was like, look what's going on down the block. Oh my God. And so people wanted more because it was positive because it brought people into a civic space because it was a sign that things could change and people cared and that government because we were part of government could be effective and that was contagious. And people who felt like in the margins who were part of this process were like emboldened by this. And then we thought, oh, because we were working with community organizers. Oh yeah, we could be really strategic and we could bring in other city services and programs and art could be like catalytic. And we were like, yeah, but I'm not sure we believed it, but then we saw it and it was like, oh, we are a witness to change in front of us. And so midway through anti graffiti, My former boss was like, murals are popular,

Yeah,

right, they are popular because they're doing so many things. They're like the quintessential multitasker. And so people started to want art here, there, everywhere. And the murals were becoming what they are today, which I believe is the autobiography of the city of Philadelphia. So when you ask that question, I think we created this want this desire this yearning for beauty, but also for representation and the murals became a way that people put a stake in the ground and said, I am here, and that matters.

Wow. I love that idea of being an autobiographical depiction of the city. That's really cool. And Brian, I don't know about you, but as Jane was talking about listening first, you know, there's definitely some marketing parallels there, right? The first job is to understand your audience. And then, and then Jane, you created, you know, something emotional for them to rally around. And that's kind of the heart of it.

I was gonna say, that's exactly right. I think, you know, when we testified before city council, all the city council, people like mural arts. Why do they like mural arts? Because we are very respectful and responsive to the citizens of the city. This is not a job. It is a moral imperative. And so in a way, we never take anything for granted. So it's like, what? What we hear then we are, we are like. giving of ourselves. And so it's almost like a marketing strategy. It's like, yes, this is like art matters. And this is writ large, how art makes a difference in the world. And people believe it. And then you like, then you don't become complacent. You do it more, you do it better, you do it more effectively, and you never ever rest. That sounds exhausting, but it's true.

sound like someone who never rests. Yes. Mm

what were like some of the first signs that like, Hey, this is, this is actually working.

Oh, I completely remember because We, um, we did the Dr. J mural and that was just like, oh, the kids were like, we need to do a mural of a sports star and I was like, okay. So we got this little grant for 2, 000 and I was always showing them pictures of murals in LA because that's where I used to, where I got my start. So they were like, we love this artist and the artist is Ken Twitchell and he did these huge figurative murals in Los Angeles, like 10 stories tall. So I was like, well, he's very famous and he costs a lot of money and we only have $2,000. So they said, call him. Call him. So I called Ken Twitchell and I said, we want you to come to Philly to do a mural. And he said, I would love to, and I don't care about the money. I wanna do Dr. J in a suit. We're like Dr. J in a suit. I'm like, let, let's get a hold of Dr. J So we found out he was shooting a TV commercial, so we. Um, so he went in and like the agent, let me go in for two minutes and I was like, Dr. J, we want to do a mural of you, blah, blah, blah. I talk really fast. So he's like, you talk fast. Um, so he said, what do you, what is this? So I'm like, I like working neighborhoods and try to do good. And we'd like to do a mural of you. He said, fine. So then he posed, we start to do this mural. I can't tell you. It was like a traffic jam. Once this mural started to go up, people are like, it's the doc. And like, it was like a line of people everywhere. Like, did you see what's going on? It just caused like such excitement and the dedication. There were like 500 people there, every news team. Like, I couldn't believe it. But I should have known, because when we did our first mural on the Spring Garden Street Bridge, that's just me and like 50 graffiti writers doing these murals, these huge murals. And the former mayor, Wilson Good, said, if you can do these murals, I had a part time job, in two weeks or three weeks, some like strange amount of time, you will get a full time job. So I'm like, don't count us out, we're doing this. So we worked at night under flashlights, and the kids were running, they were painting, painting, painting. People stopped with food. The news came. I couldn't, like, I was like, what is going on here in Philadelphia? Because I had worked, I had gone to Stanford, moved to LA. I did murals in LA. Murals are everywhere in LA. It was like, eh, you know, and here in Philly, it was like, oh my God. Oh, that's. I knew we were on to something. It was like the people love it.

Yeah. So, obviously people who appreciate art would, would gravitate towards us. You probably expected that. Who was the, who were the unexpected people who kind of came rallying around you that you didn't see coming?

I think it was people in city government. I think it was people you know who were block captains community leaders. I mean, people who felt pretty sometimes pretty distant from art and and actually felt like we're very direct with me like we're not going to the museum. And it's like and like something that's, you know, we're a miles from any anchor arts institution and like, really, we have very critical issues in this neighborhood. I felt like. They really didn't care until the mural started going up and it was a reflection of what they said. And that was very deep, profound and moving and built a connection between the work of art, the artists, us and them in a way that was almost like family. And that was very surprising. There's a mural we did in 1989. I'm dating myself. But, um, It's faded. It was really, it's really faded. It was faded. And we're trying to get a new mural there of the same subject and people have no, no new mural, no mural. We love that mural. And so that surprised me that people attach so much that they felt like we are going to, we are going to protest. against mural arts. And it's like, well, we did the mural. People were like, but we love the mural. I'm like, I get it, but you can't see the mural. It's so faded. So this all surprised me. And then, you know, you had Prince, uh, now King Charles come to Philadelphia and he wanted to see the murals. Both be here. I mean, that like stuff like that, the Pope, I mean, like

Yeah, we want,

broad audience. I have to say.

we wanted, we wanted to hear about that. We wanted to hear, we know you've hosted visitors from all over the world and those are two big ones. The Prince Charles, well now King Charles to your point, and the Pope in what, 2016 I guess, right? What were the, what are the big takeaways from people like that? Like tell us some of that stories of them coming here and, and how they walked away with a different, a different eye on Philly.

Well, I think, you know, art has a way there's an universal appeal to art. You know, it's the reason we hang out on our walls. We go to museums and galleries. It's just it's something that we want. And when it's in the environment, and it's everywhere, it's almost like when I feel like art is like oxygen, right? It's just there. It's like omnipresent. And that's a wonderful thing. And so you find that somebody like King Charles, when he was walking down a street in Mantua, first of all, there was press there from everywhere in the world. It was a giant crowd. I mean, like, You know, he's famous. So, but what was so moving to him was like there was a mural, a mural, a mural, a mural. It was like this was like an outdoor gallery and we were just in one small part of the city. And he grew up, he was an artist, he painted watercolors, we talked about art making. But then he was really moved because we, in a church, we had people, we had block captains come from all over the city and kids. At tables who were painting the mural because the mural, this one particular mural was on sheets of parachute cloth, and he came in and the excitement. Of course, it's excitement of seeing King Charles, but it's also he could tell, like, there was something about creating that was very special. And so you had people from. Like his security detail to the neighbors and then other people who were part of his entourage, like all painting together. You know, and it wasn't unlike other experiences that we've had. Like when we painted the Pope's mural we worked with 19 parishes. Um, from the region. We worked in the convention center. We had people at the table speaking many different languages. But what could they understand? They could understand the act of creativity. They could understand beauty. They could understand please pass the blue, give me the brush. And we've worked in settings not like that, where people are like really at odds with each other, where they're dealing with great, there's great amount of acrimony. And yeah, there's something very healing and meditative and connecting about art making and we have seen that and that to me is as powerful as the work of art itself.

That's great. So. What's different about Philly than some of the other cities that you've worked in, like Los Angeles, how does it fit differently here than, than in other places you've been?

Well, first of all, I would say Philly is a great city. It's a city of neighborhoods. It's a city where people. have really responded to our, but I think beyond that, what really sets us apart is that the effort has been sustained. You know, Mayor Parker is the sixth mayor that I've worked for. That's really an honor to have worked for so many mayors and that, but to see it. And it's been lasting so long and being really popular today. I mean, I love it when I get into an Uber or a cab and people go, Oh, what do you do? And I say, I'm with the mural arts program. Aren't we, don't we have the most murals of any city in the world? I'm like, yes, we do.

Nice. Thanks.

Absolutely. You are right. Um, but it's really that our elected officials have held onto this. Philanthropy and citizens have really helped drive this. Vision forward to be honest with you. So other cities are doing it, but in a much more random fashion and I like tell because we have a mural arts Institute where we're working with cities from all over the country and the world and We always say to people come as a team philanthropy community government And the artists and join together to, you have to grow deep roots so that it's not just one or two murals, but it's something that can sustain. And because it's been long lasting, we've been able to mine the social power of art and put that to work on behalf of citizens in ways that if you would talk to me 20 years ago I would have not predicted in, you know, criminal justice, behavioral health, community development, environmental issues, you name it. I think that art has like an ability to open things up to make us look at something differently to help us analyze, to think creatively, to think out of the box. Traditional interventions fail us. They just do. So our ability to embrace innovation as a city is totally critical. And artists are part of that secret sauce.

Wow. All right. So Philly's different cause we've sustained. I know you're modest. You said so. But you are a spark plug. Are there other Jane Goldens out there? Do other cities have someone who has been, kind of, provided that continuity and energy across, you know, four decades like you have?

I mean, my long lasted my long lasting thing is I think that's probably pretty unusual, but I will say there are some great leaders across the country. You know, the woman who gave me my 1st grant in Los Angeles, her name's Judy Baca, and she's a very well known artist. And she was working with, uh, she's Chicano. She was working with Chicano kids in East LA. When I met her, I applied for a grant and I was past the deadline. And I had, I just kept calling and calling and calling and calling. And I think eventually I just wore her out and they gave me this. This project and it was like 300 to do a giant wall. And so, but I learned a lot from her and she's still, I mean, she is not, she's running a program, but it's a lot about digital murals and her work. Cause she is an incredible artist. She just had some major shows at museums in Los Angeles. And I learned a grittiness from her and a tenacity, like. She spoke truth to power. She just kept going. She didn't. She just, if there was an obstacle, she went around it. And as a young person, I mean, I was only like 22 years old, you know, to have that kind of role model was very informative. It was a really, it was very inspiring for me to see what she was doing. And I can see how people tried to block her path. And I saw that she was just undaunted. And I'm like, yes. Me too.

Um, you know, in marketing. A lot of it isn't just doing the marketing. It's all this other stuff and dealing with other people and stakeholders and getting approvals and buy in. And can you talk a little bit about who some of the different stakeholders are that you work with that, um, you know, how do you create this kind of an inclusive community, um, so that everybody can be successful? Whack

Well, I, you know, I'm going to talk about some of our bigger, more complicated projects, because in some way, you know, it's funny when people work here and they're like, public art is hard. I'm like, it is not for the faint of heart, because anything can go wrong at any time. It's like someone equated it to like surfing, big wave surfing, like you're up, you're down, you're up, you're down, and then you're riding in. It's like, great. I used to surf when I was young, so I like that. Comparison. Um, so I think that, um, you try to build this village. You're absolutely right. So you've got to figure out who's the community. You've got to look at your elected officials. You've got to think about, like, for our bigger projects, you have city departments that will be involved. Sometimes you need L& I, sometimes it's streets. Sometimes you have to go to the art commission or the historical commission, so you want to think that and think, you know, really seriously about who has to be involved. Who has to be involved up front so you sort of build your support. And then, like marketing, you have to sustain your support. In fact, you sustain it and build it and build it so it's like a crescendo at the end. And But along the way, you have all these landmines that you could be hitting. And so you've got to build a bigger village, bigger village, bigger village. I mean, we did 8 miles of color along the Amtrak corridor by an artist from Berlin. Like, that was dealing with SEPTA, Conrail, Amtrak. Community gardeners. I mean, you name it. And it was really abstract. Oh, the graffiti writers who were like, really testy about like, was she going to go over their names? And so our village was like, here, there, there, there. And whenever we thought we had enough of a village, it was like, no, there's one more. So. And you have to really sustain yourself and be ready for that because that, I love that. Like, I probably would have been like, really enjoyed filmmaking because my husband's a documentary filmmaker and he's like, you know, like every time you do make a project, it's like, Oh, I'm never doing it again. And it's like, I'm never doing it again, but yeah, I can't wait. So, um, and then like marketing too, you really need to hone your message. I mean, like we had a strategic plan done a long time ago and the plan was this cycle: you do great art. You talk about that art cogently, passionately, insistently, and if you do one and two well, you build your family of friends, donors, supporters. And in some way, every project, we have to get people to believe in it, right? So we're, how we market it, how we talk about it, how we build belief is really important because that will help us have success. Because this is work that sits out in the world and we want it to be embraced, loved, and respected.

Wow. Amazing.

I appreciate that you're able to kind of connect the dots here to, you know, the thing that we do as marketers. You've touched on a bunch of things. And one of the ones I want to loop back to is this idea of, you know, art as an ability, as an, has an ability to kind of influence change. Tell us about the role of artists as change makers.

I think that's what is so fascinating to me. I mean, I think I first saw it at work, you know, in communities where people were sort of skeptical, and the mural would go up and then other things would happen. You'd see other things percolating. Later on, I got to see more individual change. And the first really profound project that we did, we had started working in the state prison. In 2002, it's the fifth largest state prison country and has several thousand people out there for very serious crimes. And I was very ambivalent about going in because mostly we've worked with young people and we went in and we, I was very moved by the people I met. I was, saw their talent. They showed me their work and we started a class. And then we did a big project called Healing Walls where we worked with Crime victims, victims, advocates and the men in the prison, and it was a very hard class because it was a big spike in crime in violence in our city at that time. And the idea was. Can we build a commonality about what's going on in our city and can we think of different approaches together rather than apart. It's a pretty lofty, complicated. Our, our aspiration was big. And the people from the prison society who I love, they were like, this is, this is really complicated. And we had a really great, uh, um, we had a mediator, And who is very talented and we brought people together to talk about this and people were snippy and had lots of, you know, didn't really want to listen. Everyone claimed they had more pain. We brought 40 people out to the prison and would have these circles together to talk about the design. And I was just like many times. I just thought this was such a terrible idea. And then we brought a subset of the group into the communities. where people felt like collectively they were victims of crime because of everything happening. We brought people here, we went to a couple churches, eventually we got these two designs, and things started to change when we began to paint in the prison. The prison at the time, it had this giant auditorium, and everybody was at a table, and we had six people who were either victims or victims advocates, and six, of the men in the class. And so suddenly, when they were painting, the power dynamic shifted because the men were the ones who knew how to paint. And so people had to ask them advice, like, should I use this? Should I use that? Is this the right brush? And then, then they really started talking about their lives in a deeper fashion. And this went on for six months, we had these painting sessions. And by the end, I think the men Um, started to understand more about sort of they felt remorse, had a hard time articulating it, um, discovered that this art was a path for them to give back in a way that was pretty, I think, profound, and for the victims advocates felt that they had been Doing good work, but had seen only one part of the story that it was a lot more complex. And then in the community, there was a notion that they would really need to embrace people coming home because a very high percentage of people. across the state who are in prison come home. And I saw behavioral change. I saw people change as a result of this project. And that really fed our desire to build partnerships with the Department of Behavioral Health, the Department of Human Services, and the Department of Prisons and build this work that could really, um, move the needle, um, individually on a community level. And by extension, there is change at a civic level because this work is going on everywhere.

That's powerful. Yeah,

Yeah, it was a very powerful project. It was so hard. There's a documentary film about it called Concrete, Steel, and Paint, and I just look exhausted, like, through the entire film. Like, and you, you see me just saying, the ship is sinking. Like, it's just, it's not gonna work. But it did. I mean, that is the brilliance. I mean, art connects, art has a way of shining a light on our difference and distinction, and that's Beautiful. But it also in a very subtle, wonderful way, um, sort of shines a light and connects us in a way that it underscores our commonality and humanity. And that is something that I'll believe for the rest of my life.

that's great.

I'm guessing a project like that is hard to recreate. are you able to take some elements of your playbook to other cities are, are others kind of emulating the way you go about, uh, changing landscapes and changing the lives of residents and letting artists kind of influence change,

That's a great question. I mean, I think what we learned is it's really not about our sort of, it's not about us like replicating ourselves, like Dunkin Donuts or something like that. but we've been able to connect with other organizations doing good work who are eager, eager to learn from us, but we are learning from them at the same time. So there is a degree of mutuality, but I feel as though just we had a conference here a year ago, and we had people come from other cities and they were talking about the impact of working with us. And that was very moving as well. I mean, I feel that That there are a lot of city who their their work is now off and running and we help plant the seeds. You know, we didn't do it alone. We did it with them. It was really good partnership, but I feel as though they were able to take something from the city of Philadelphia and just go off and run. And I know for a fact that there are mayors around the country allocating resources to their departments of arts and culture based on our model. And that to me is like Phenomenal. It's really that that is really exciting. And, you know, like when we, um, we went to Detroit last year, because USA Today does this, like a list of the top 10 cities with the most street art. And so the head of arts and culture invited all 10 cities. And it was like wonderful because I feel like we don't enough speak with a collective voice about the power of art or art and civic engagement, art and social issues, art in the public, period, just for its beauty and sense of wonder and awe. Um, and that was really wonderful because, you know, together you can talk about resources and shared problems and how people get around those problems and how you solve it. So I thought that was really wonderful. So I think they, through the Mural Arts Institute. We've sort of, we've made some, I think, lifelong friends in other cities, and we can inform and inspire each other.

The, um, you talked about, um, you know, working under so many administrations in Philadelphia and obviously the, the council people are, um, coming in and out, uh, every few years, is it difficult to, uh, have to kind of refresh your, the new government around what you guys do and the value you bring? Do you feel like that's a constant thing or, do you feel pretty grounded right now with how established you guys are?

I think we feel pretty grounded. It's not like a new day, because, you know, so many people who were mayors have been council people, and we worked with them when they were council people, and there are enough people, well, there are always new people in departments, and it is, you know, It's not a challenge, but it's our challenge to make new allies, right? It's just the way it is. And, um, but there are always some people who are still there and we draw on them. You know, like today I was talking to the person Carlton Williams, who runs Clean and Green for Mayor Parker. I mean, I've known Carlton for probably 25 years, you know, so we, that's nice because there's so much goodwill and trust. And, you know, I have, I have no problem going to Carlton with an idea. I'm in it. He expects that of me.

I'm surprised to hear you have an idea of it. That's amazing. It takes that long. You mentioned Detroit a minute ago. I would love for you to Meet a guy we had on a podcast a little while ago who he does sonic branding and one of his projects was also in Detroit where they created, um, they created some soundscapes, um, and in a very urban area, they brought in natural sounds and kind of tried to influence the way people felt about where they were in an urban landscape to feel more connected to nature. And it's really interesting. I started thinking when you were talking about Detroit, like, wow, I wonder if some of these visual. backdrops with audio on top of it. I wonder if there's something that would be cool to do there

That

and have you done it?

No, no. Have we done it? No, we haven't done that. You know what we did? We had a composer make wind chimes with the neighbors so that you could hear the beauty. And then she attached it to the wall. So that was really. Quite lovely. So occasionally we've infused sound but but I would love to connect with that person that that's great. But I thought of another project is when we were talking about the influence. I just like we did this project in Hanoi. We helped get this project started. We worked with artists and journalists. The aspiration was to create a three mile long mural, all mosaic mural about the thousand year history of Hanoi. And we worked on that together with this big team of people. And now it's like a landmark. It's a landmark, and I remember when I was in Hanoi, speaking to young artists, it was a crowd of about 200 people, there was translation, and I remember thinking, like, I don't know these people, we're from different, like, different planets, right? And yet we are, like, relating really well. And they, they were so excited, and that's happened to us a couple times in Athens. We did that in Columbia. We were there in Meine, in uh, Bogota, and again in Bogota. Like all the kids are like muralistas. I'm like, I love you a muralista too.

Can you talk a little bit about how some of the local companies are doing good by getting involved? And how do you, how do you work with some of the businesses, um, to do what you guys do?

we love partnership so much and we try to make it really value added to people. Um, you know, because like, um, I'm a very aspirational person, but I'm very practical. I'm a pragmatist at heart. So, um, like TD Bank supports our fellowship program for black artists and we're on year six. And we just had a reception the other night and the excitement was palpable. I mean, this is over like. I don't know, something like 135, 140 artists who feel really impacted by this fellowship program. I mean, where they're getting all kinds of support. So that's like very tangible. Citizens Bank, they support our wall ball. So it's like, that's a way we raise invaluable general operating money. Um, we are about to do some work with Snipes. We work, there are different banks that support us. Bank of America has been great to us. We work with HUP. We're doing a project with them. We've worked with Jefferson. It's very, it's like, really varied. It's it's all it's many different people. And it's like, sometimes it's small businesses that contribute to a project. And sometimes it's a larger. You know, I feel like it's, you know, mural arts is so public that there are a lot of corporations who feel invaluable, and we leverage money. We're big leveragers. So we'll in the pot. There's always some public dollars and private dollars because I feel there are limits to both, and we should just be really smart, and we should just stretch everything as far as we can and then mix it up and try to do as much work as possible.

You, um, it's interesting, there's a real clear theme emerging here about art's ability to kind of universally collect people, connect people of all types of backgrounds. You know, just now, like you're talking about from the, from the public sphere, from the private sphere, from criminals to kids to, you know, Hanoi to Philly, like really clear that. You know, you feel strongly about how art can connect everybody, no matter what.

right. And I think it's not even just it's connecting for sure, but it's also like thinking about different critical issues. And this is where it's sort of universal with people across the country. Like, what are the issues that cities are grappling with? Like, housing and security. We have a program, Color Me Back. We pay people. We train them in public art making. And so, people are learning skills, um, I Getting sort of help with social services, uh, feeling that there's a path out and, and creating beauty in our city. So by creating beauty in very public spaces, people who have felt like they, you know, alienated, isolated, like feel their world is closing in on them. Suddenly have people saying to them, this is so beautiful. Thank you so much. You've changed my neighborhood. I never wanted to walk down this concourse. Now I feel safe. It is a complete. paradigm shift. So it's like how do we sort of address, we think about people coming home from incarceration. How can they do good through art? Think about people who are struggling with housing insecurity or trauma or mental health issues. How about young people who love art but go to schools where art is not an option? So where, where do we fit in in the ecosystem? So part of this is very, very aware that I think people should have beauty. Period. And it's a matter of equity. Let's have it everywhere. I love galleries and museums. I don't think art belongs exclusively behind those walls. So while it's a connector, it's also an incubator, it's a foundation, it's a platform, it's an object, it's a catalyst. All existing side by side in the life of our city. And that to me is wonderful. Somebody once said to me, it was a funder, and we took, we had a, we drove them around, I drove them around. And if you're driving around with me, I'm going to like really wear you out. And so then at the end of the day, she said, you know, this is um, a deceptively complex organization. And I thought that was really well said.

That's awesome. I love the idea of, you know, the murals are like the autobiography of the city. I feel like you've been able to really capture the history of the city and what brings it together in different neighborhoods and different places. And if you look at kind of when you started in the 80s in Philly and all the different things that have even just happened since then, and even during those tumultuous times in the 80s. it's just amazing how art can kind of bring things together and murals can kind of be the vessel for that. And, um, I just feel like the type of access and collaboration are just fantastic way to, help a city come together.

Yeah, I agree. And thank you for referencing those days back in the 80s and the early 90s. I mean, I think it was so unexpected. I remember we used to at least when I started, we had a drawing class at this center community center in West Philly, and the graffiti writers would go there at night. And, I can't even believe it, and they were drawing, like, bowls of fruit, just like that. And I invited Wilson Good, and I said, you have to come, you have to come see my, my still life class. And he walked in, he goes, I'm glad you invited me, because if I didn't see it, I would not believe you. Because everybody was so intent on drawing. And they would talk, you know, during breaks, they would just tell these graffiti stories, you know, wild, crazy stories, but then they'd get back and they would draw again. And it was just like. So interesting. And the early murals were so captivating. I remember we would work year round. My, my former boss used to make us work in all kinds of weather. So we would, we did this mural of Fifth and Allegheny by the railroad tracks and the kids, they were from the Bronx and they would like, they would make a fire in the trash can. I'm sure like all this was hugely dangerous. And they would go, it's like the Bronx. I'm like, I know, but it's Philly. And then these rival wall writing gangs would come by and they taunt each other. And I, then we had to get everyone painting together. So everyone was And I remember like thinking along the way, like we was a total grassroots organization, but it was working. I mean, I think that was sort of the magic of it. And when people say, Oh, anti graffiti that sounds like such an impressive name. I'm like, you know what it was a youth development program. We employ 25, 000 kids over 10 years and many of them are like, okay. I'm in touch with and are leading really interesting lives. It was, it was a path for something to do somewhere else. I used to say to them, look, I can't teach you how to use spray paint. You know how to do that, but I'm going to teach, I can teach you other things and hopefully that your world opens up and that's what happened.

I'm having a good time picturing you in the middle of two rival

I know,

of kids from the Bronx and Philly about ready to come

was the Bronx Bombers and High Class Lunatics, I was like, I can't believe I remember them.

And you're in the middle waving a paintbrush saying,

know, they already

paint together.

Hey, it works.

Yeah. Um, Brian, Jane mentioned, um, the idea of innovation at some point earlier, and then I asked a question, but I know you lit up because you've always liked to ask about innovation. So I'm going to turn that over to you.

Yeah. I mean, um, what, what other types of innovative programs are you seeing from the other cities across the globe? You know, we talked about what, how Philly brings things to other places, you know, where you, what do you want to bring to Philly that some other people are doing?

Well, I think some cities are doing very serious artist residency programs And they They sort of give the artist a problem to solve. And, uh, it's worked really well in Minneapolis and in New York and L. A. Um, and that to me has been really interesting to see. I look at Miami and some of their zoning and their policy work they're doing around public art making. And I just think that they have a way of infusing funding into the public art sphere that I haven't seen here where. All new buildings, a percentage has to go to public art or murals. And so you have an abundance of public art being created. Um, there are other cities like in New York and in LA, how they think about, you know, senior centers. Or health centers and really consistently paying both a visual attention to to centers like that, but also have an artist residency program. Um, I just I feel like there's there are things going on in other cities. I think Chicago is amazing for the investment they make in public space. I mean, I can't even imagine what their budget is for cultural affairs. It must be over 100 million dollars. I mean, it's just This is the, you know, like, even when I was, I was in Hong Kong for, I was presenting on our work just a year ago. And I noticed that a lot of the spaces were really lit at night, lit up in beautiful ways. And some of the lighting was very artistically done. And I just thought, Ooh, I would love to see that here in Philadelphia. You know, um. So I think I always am paying attention to other cities because I think that there's so much to learn., You know, we're building a floating laboratory performing art space at Bartram's garden that by day, it will be a place where young people can learn about environmental science. And by night, it will be a place where people could perform or just meditate on the river. It's an 8 million endeavor designed by the dean of architecture at Cornell. And it was really looking at projects in other cities that excited us that had us start to think about developing a partnership with the artist mission you and looking at the work she done around globally, actually, so it's like, what can we go? I like what the Philadelphia citizen has ideas. We should steal. And I think the other thing is ideas. We can export because we're also doing some great things in Philadelphia. So it's, it's like achieving that balance. But I'm, I'm somebody who I am infinitely curious about what's going on around the world. Okay.

Doing great things in Philly, I think is an understatement and, uh, your impact here and abroad and across the country is really cool to see. Thank you for sharing so much with us about this. This

Oh, I really enjoyed the conversation. It's great.

us too.

Uh, before we let you go, um, what are, what are some things that are brewing, uh, in Philly that you're working on and that you can tell us about?

Well, one project that will be dedicated in the summer of 2026 is float lab. That's the performing arts space. I just talked about in the laboratory. The other project we're doing is called printmaking for the people and we will be doing printmaking programs at most of our library branches. And we will be giving a prompt to people to think about democracy today. And then we will have, we'll collect all the prints for probably thousands, and we'll have a major citywide exhibition and all that material will get turned into a work of public art that will be a lasting Testament so that we can remember this period of time in our city and in our nation. And then, um, we're doing a gateway project. I'm very excited about this, doing an analysis of what people see when they leave and enter Philadelphia and creating some beautiful, awesome works of art. Yay. So that's really, uh, great. And then we have a project called an initiative called the people's budget, which is about using art to, um, to help build transparency and knowledge around our city's budget. And we have teach ins and budget one on ones going on around the city. And we'll have a symposium that year and, um, yeah, and some other things cooking, but that's just a few of our projects that's going on and we're very excited about Shepard Ferry is going to be coming back to do a mural. Um, so we're excited about that. And then Jesse crimes. Who is quite famous. He was in federal prison. He got out, he worked with us cause we have our program and now he is a show with the Met, the Met is buying his work. It's unbelievable. And we're going to be doing a big quilt making project with him. So

Wow.

just a few things.

Just a few. So, all right. Well, you, you, congratulations on your 40th anniversary last year. It doesn't sound like you're slowing things down at all.

No, no, it can never slow down.

Lord.

No.

Someone once said that it was like a shark. They said, if sharks stop, they die. I'm like, yikes, I'll never stop.

Well,

no, we're not slowing down.

All right. Well, if you ever stop doing this, please come represent us because Brian, I can't think of anyone better to, to put out there in front of the world in terms of, uh, energy and ideas. You

Yeah.

you. It's been such a pleasure talking to you both.

know, our pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us.

Okay.

Bye. Wow, John. That was really inspirational.

About her. Huh?

Yeah.

Bundle of energy.

Yeah. Just, uh, you know, the creativity and the, um, motivation to do something great and,

and just the, the, the, the enthusiasm for making change, you know, still 40 years into it, just you still as fired up. It seems like as fired up now as you must have been then.

Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, it's a great testament to, um, everything she's been able to do and, I think that younger generations are gonna, um, you know, continue to benefit from that. So it's, uh, there's some really fantastic things that they've done and, and, and they'll stand the test of time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does feel like a more permanent, uh, form of expression than, than so much of the stuff that you and I work on every day in, in the world of marketing. So, um, yeah, and, and a, a real love letter to the city. So it's, it's, it's. It was awesome to hear from her,

Yeah. That's awesome.

and you're right. I hope, I hope next, I hope generations that follow will, uh, kind of pick up her, pick up her torch and, and keep doing cool stuff like this.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

All right, man. Well, you have a lovely day.

You as well. You as well.

go, go. Uh, go drive around the city and enjoy some murals.

Absolutely. Take it all in.

All right, man. Take care.

Say it

Till next time.

later.