PART 2 - MOVEMBER

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 5, Episode 34 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here. Instead of driving in the car around to the local shop, why not walk, if you're able? Because, it's not just the physical, like you say, it's the mental health, it's the well being that you get from that, that you can't really explain unless you do it. I think that's one of the challenges of it, isn't it? That it's this intangible thing that, ugh, I don't like that. That's also possibly, if you're not doing it... The thought that you don't like that might stop you, regardless of whether you actually don't like it.

[00:00:36] Peasoopers, this week, the chat with Dr. Steve Jones continues. We touch upon role modeling, in terms of the ripple effect when men disclose how they've sought support for their mental health, or volunteered for psychological well being training.

[00:00:50] We talk about how we must understand and respect the culture of an organization when considering interventions. Of course that's across the board, and it's particularly important for men's mental health. We also talk about getting outside, with school memories from two northern lads.

[00:01:05] It's almost like an old Hovis advert. And we finish with a great takeaway from Steve. Oh, and by the way, Steve is a clinical psychologist, author of Act Made Yorkshire, and creator and host of the Shit Shower and Self Care podcast.

[00:01:34] PeopleSoup is an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun. Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioural science.

[00:01:49] let's just scoot over to the news desk. our next two episodes are a bit different. I'm going to be talking about Acting the Workplace and I'll be interviewed by producer Emma. [00:02:00] And in case you hadn't heard my act in the Workplace Train the Trainer program is running in April and May next year. It's a training program set over four sessions in partnership with Joe Oliver at Contextual Consulting, and you'll find the link in the show notes.

[00:02:13] I developed this training protocol alongside my legendary friend, Dr. Paul Flaman at City University of London. And I've delivered it to hundreds of workplace participants across all sectors.

[00:02:24] I also use it as a foundation for many of my workplace interventions. Anyway, back to business, for now. Get a brew on and have a listen to Part 2 of my Movember chat with Dr Steve Jones.

[00:02:43] SPOONS

[00:02:43] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: In terms of the workplace, I, I speak as someone who, decades ago I used to manage the contract for an employee assistance program, and it used to really get my goats that we were paying for this great service per head and that hardly anyone was using it. So I was trying to get people to talk about how they'd used it, maybe for signposting to financial support, maybe for signposting to, Uh, series of therapeutic, meetings, all sorts of ways and worries that, that could support people with, but it was kind of a stigma attached to contacting the employee assistance program. And I think it's something really useful in organizations. We just need more people role modeling that it's there and it's open.

[00:03:27] Typically in my experience, or they used to be open to the whole family. So it wasn't just the employee, it's their family members who could also use it.

[00:03:36] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: Yeah, I think within again, it totally depends what culture you're, you're working into, doesn't it? And how, how you're supported. so I talk, obviously not in detail, but, I talked with One of my friends who manages, basically a big factory he manages lots of blokes on a factory floor. and I, you know, reflect on my experience of working in psychology and in healthcare, [00:04:00] and it's predominantly female. he just laughs at some of the... you know, when he's, he says, I've got this, this is happening, or da da da, and he doesn't tell me details obviously, but says this is stressful, and I'll say, oh, have you tried this, and he just laughs at me.

[00:04:13] He says, you try and do that in a factory, Steve, you, you give that a go, you give that a go, and he's told me, you know, some of the ways that he managed, and I'm like, right, yeah, I would love to see you in a room try that. It was a bunch of, uh, a bunch of psychologists, see how that flies. But again, it's, that's not necessarily the thing that you're doing is wrong, it's about the culture of the environment and about the, the makeup of the staff team that you have, if that.

[00:04:38] message isn't safe, it's not going to fly.

[00:04:41] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: That's so interesting and I think this is where ACT and Contextual Behavioral Science can help us. It can help us think about the context of an organization. Is it predominantly male factory floor or are the males in the minority and it's a totally different context how to approach this this subject of mental health and particularly male mental health. And they both have their challenges I guess.

[00:05:08] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: Yeah, they do. And I appreciate, you know, I'm not, um, not sort of sweeping generalizations. They are our experiences in those contexts. They are unique for that reason. I'm happy in the, the organization that I'm in at the moment, we're seeing more posters around for, Yes, workplace well being, but specific for men's mental health.

[00:05:30] Men's group at work

[00:05:30] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: So this, I've seen things for like Andy's Man Club. and I've seen, uh, you know, specific for men to get in touch, to have voices on the staff well being team. Just recognize looking around, oh, it's all women. which is, you know. It's great if the, you know, people are interested and put their, the people who put their hands up, but creating an environment and actively saying, guys, come on, please have a voice in this because you matter. And I think that's, it's almost the thing of your emotions matter and will be [00:06:00] heard and to start seeing that pop up. Um, so I've been asked next week to do a, um, we've got a self care week, across the hospital. And one of the talks is. Will you do something on male mental health and get people in and just sort of talk about the barriers?

[00:06:13] I'm like, yes, please sign me up. Um, just to give that message. He's all right. You can do it.

[00:06:20] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: Oh, I'm delighted to hear you're doing that. And you've just triggered two thoughts from me as well. In the pandemic, there was someone I was speaking to up north, someone senior in the NHS who set up a male discussion group where men could just pop in and talk about what was going on for them, how they were feeling. And he was overwhelmed with men who wanted to come and talk and so powerful. And there wasn't a particular structure, it was just a forum for people to talk about the issues they're facing. And another example, I was working in a big government department doing the Act in the Workplace training that me and Paul Flexman developed, and really conscious about how word spreads about a course like that.

[00:07:01] And one of the first... I, I ran about 10 sessions over a year, 10 cohorts, and on the first cohort there was this guy who I always thought was a bit of a geezer. He was a bit of a, a man's man, you might call it. And again, listen to my language there, but he came, he was really curious. He was engaged. after the first session, he went and spoke to the CEO and said.

[00:07:25] This is life changing. This has changed my relationship with my wife. This is making me think, how do I want to be in my relationship? And he went and shared that with the CEO. And then, more men started signing up for the course because he was the role model for them. But we need people like you to stand up and say, hey, come and chat with me.

[00:07:45] Men being a role model - I've got to be perfect

[00:07:45] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: it can be anyone can't it? We all We all have the, you know, well, we all have experience of being, well, we all have experience of being and therefore we have the ability to, influence and touch others.

[00:07:59] Role model for intro

[00:07:59] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: [00:08:00] So I think sometimes when we talk about being a role model.

[00:08:03] especially when men are talking about being a role model, they think, well, that means I've got to have everything together. That means I've got to be, I've got to be perfect. I've got to be able to talk about my emotions, manage it perfectly. I've also got to look like Chris Hemsworth, um, or Henry Cavill.

[00:08:20] I've also got to earn six figures. I've also got to have, wonderful kids who adore me and want to play with me all the time. Whoa, hold on. Do you? Really? You might have one of those, you might have none of those. you can still talk. You can still talk to people and be an example. Role model doesn't mean infallible.

[00:08:46] Role model means someone who is... In a role doing something,

[00:08:51] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: Hmm.

[00:08:52] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: you don't have to bring all of you to it all the time.

[00:08:55] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: But if you're role modeling that you have an imperfect life, you suffer from worries, you sometimes feel down, you sometimes do things you're not particularly proud of, that normalization of that can really help other people open up.

[00:09:13] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: We think about it in, in works. One of the, so I, I have quite a few trainees I've had over the year and I absolutely love having trainees. One of the best things you can do, or that I enjoy doing is, because I remember the, the thing of being a bit, Oh, this, this supervisor must know everything.

[00:09:31] So knowledge, I love it. I need to drink everything in because they're perfect. Clearly, the reality being on the other side of that coin, that is not the case. but to be able to share that with people and, you know, to say, I've done this before and it just fell flat, or I've tried this or I've said this and it's gone wrong, or I remember that piece of coursework and it went badly for me. you know, being able to show that vulnerability and, there'll always be people who [00:10:00] look at you and think, because they don't know what's going on between your ears, they don't know what's going on outside of the context they see you in. So they might have a very different impression of you to what you hold.

[00:10:10] So why not, if you're able to influence, if you're able to show Yes, this is who I am, this is where I am, and I am imperfect

[00:10:17] that can be incredibly powerful

[00:10:19] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: absolutely, and I think that's a tip for everyone, just to, take a small step to being a bit more open and vulnerable, rather than putting up shields of, I'm perfect, everything's all right, look at my salary, et cetera. I think the more we can normalize the imperfectness of the human condition and life, the ups and downs of the rollercoaster, then I think that that opens the door for other people to to speak.

[00:10:44] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: Don't get me wrong, if someone offers me a winning lottery ticket, I'm not gonna say Oh no, please no, you know, I'm gonna snap your hand off But, the reality is that your life doesn't have less Meaning or value or, an ability to influence if that never happens. It's

[00:11:01] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: Hmm. Agreed. Now Steve, as part of Movember I was looking up, information on the website. They're encouraging men to move and get outside more. they're seeking to inspire us to get off the couch, reconnect with the outdoors and get some fresh air, and take back the hours that were stolen by the screen.

[00:11:19] They also talk about us acting as role models for other men, which we've touched upon. And they mention a statistic of 60 men lost to suicide globally every hour. Which certainly puts things in perspective. Harrowing, what a word. But thinking about getting outside, what do you think about the effectiveness of getting outside?

[00:11:40] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: Do it! Um, I don't know, I could leave it at that to be honest.

[00:11:44] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: Yeah,

[00:11:44] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: so, I'm very lucky, I live on the edge of the Peak District. So, from Sheffield out towards Derbyshire, it's just green, it's lush at all times. It's obviously quite wet, but being [00:12:00] out, just being outside and being able to have that on your doorstep.

[00:12:04] I don't do it now, but walking my little boy to nursery when he was there, just walking back, you can see the landscape and if you look to the left, there is nothing. There is no houses, no civilisation, but being able to see green and life it's great. I love being outside, and I love being in the rain. I don't know whether it's a thing of, when I was growing up it was playing football in all weathers. So, yes, let's put t shirt and a pair of shorts on, it's middle of February. Let's go for it. And, and it was doing that, but I also had a, I had a paper round before and after school. Like, it didn't matter what you were doing. So I think almost the acceptance kicked in. It was like, uh, okay, I can deal with this. I just like being outside. I'll often put my earphones in when I'm walking or if I go for a run. But just seeing, getting my lungs open, It does change a lot. Now, I don't get outside as much as I used to, because I don't play football anymore, but taking my little one up up to the park, going, Oh, we really shouldn't have stood in that. it just transforms it because being outside doesn't necessarily mean going for a run or for a long walk on your own. It could be we take a ball up or we take an American football or his remote control car or whatever it is. we, we know that, even though there's less, less sun at the minute and less daylight hours, just being out that we know what that does to us physically in terms of not just vitamin D, if we aren't taking that in England, or Britain, but if you aren't, please do. But we know what sort of impact that has on sort of how our body functions, and our sleep wake cycle, and people saying, I feel restless at night. Well, it's probably because your body's not really done anything. I've got to a point where I've deliberately woke up. So the, the unit that I work in is on the fourth floor.

[00:13:52] so it's switch back stairs, so essentially like eight flights of stairs. I will not get in the lift. I'm sat down all day.

[00:13:58] I deliberately refused to get in that [00:14:00] lift because I thought this might be about 10 percent of my daily steps doing this

[00:14:04] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: Yeah,

[00:14:05] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: dangerous Really dangerous. So just to get outside and be, be cold, be wet, be muddy means so much.

[00:14:12] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: I love it when you should just get outside and be. I absolutely agree. You know, I love cycling and when I get out and I connect with the countryside, the nature, the different routes, exploring, I come back a better man. it impacts on my physical health, but Far more than that, it impacts on my mental health, just being outside.

[00:14:34] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: just Being inside all the time. If you're inside, you're almost usually still. If we think about being at home, we're usually, if we're at home, we're inside, we're still. When you're out, it's very rare that you are perfectly still outside, even if it's just walking up. To a cafe, getting a cup of coffee, sitting down, drinking that, and then walking back. Well, that's far more than if you walk to your kitchen, turn the kettle on, and come back. Granted, it's a privilege to be able to go to a cafe, and, you know, it's not always that cheap to do. But even so, if you're sat watching telly, you're sat.

[00:15:10] Instead of driving in the car around to the local shop, why not walk, if you're able? Because, it's not just the physical, like you say, it's the mental health, it's the well being that you get from that, that you can't really explain unless you do it. I think that's one of the challenges of it, isn't it? That it's this intangible thing that, ugh, I don't like that. That's also possibly, if you're not doing it... The thought that you don't like that might stop you, regardless of whether you actually don't like it.

[00:15:40] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: Beautiful, I like that. And you're taking me back, I just had a memory of school, first primary school in Northumberland, and if we were all a bit lethargic or disruptive in class, Mrs. Williams would say, Right, everyone up, go and run round the playground three times. whatever the weather. It might not be allowed nowadays, but [00:16:00] um, we did and we came back like invigorated.

[00:16:04] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: if my little boy's school said, right, we sent him outside, he's a bit wet, that's good for him. he's what, he's what you need, you know.

[00:16:12] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: Mmm,

[00:16:13] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: Running around in the cold, you don't feel cold for long, if you're active enough.

[00:16:17] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: yeah.

[00:16:18] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: Someone who's stood in, playing football in the snow in a pair of, always refused to wear under. Like undershirts and stuff. Trust me. You get warm if you run around enough.

[00:16:28] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: Yeah, I remember doing, at high school, doing school cross country in the snow.

[00:16:33] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: Oh

[00:16:34] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: Over turnip fields, and then if we were, if we were below a certain time, we had to do press ups in the snow.

[00:16:41] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: That's brilliant.

[00:16:42] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: And it's certainly memorable, and it certainly gets the blood flowing. Now Steve, I want to ask, you've already given us some top tips there, but are there any takeaways you've got for men listening? Maybe about how they could take the first steps to having those conversations or opening up?

[00:17:00] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: I think it's, it's knowing that if you've, if you've got people in your life who you think might need that, you can be the one that initiates that and asks that. And someone told me on one of the conversations I had on the pod was if you ask someone how they are, whatever they say, it's like, oh, I'm alright, I'm fine.

[00:17:23] Ask them again. Because we might say it firstly as a, oh, they're just asking. It's just polite, it's small talk. When actually, if someone asks you again, they're giving you that message that they care. So even if you don't feel that you can share yours straight away, You can start to be a role model for someone else, even if you don't feel like that's where you are. And what you're doing at that point, you're creating a culture, you're creating the message that it's okay to do that. Now if almost paying that forward,

[00:17:55] when you feel ready, or when someone asks you,[00:18:00] it might feel a little safer because they've done it, someone might have given you that back first. instead of it always being about the emphasis on us to share, we can be creating the environment that allows others to share, and therefore creates that safety.

[00:18:17] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: Brilliant. I love it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna try that myself actually. I think that's something we can all take away. It's something that's very achievable. So thank you. I'm going to include that in workplace training as well, Steve. Steve, I can't let you go. You know, I like to ask my guests for a song choice.

[00:18:36] And I know you've been on before, but this is a song choice to announce your arrival in a room for the next few weeks. Whether it's a real room or a virtual room. Do you have a selection for us? Yeah.

[00:18:51] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: This is an incredibly hard decision. Um, I think, based on the theme that we're talking about, it would be All Star by Smash Mouth. Now, that song means... A huge amount to me and I know that the lead singer, of that band sadly passed away earlier this year, um, but just a song that's about just, you know, I'm going to give this, I'm going to give this a go.

[00:19:23] I can do this. I want something different. I want to change. Despite the fact that I might not think that I can but yeah, let's give it a go. Anyway seems very well very on brand

[00:19:35] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: Beautiful. Thank you so much for joining us at short notice when the idea of Movember came into my producer Emma's head and really grateful for you being here for your openness, for your reflection and for your podcast. That's the the Shit, Shower and Self Care podcast folks. You need to check it out.

[00:19:55] You need to tell the men in your life about it and you need to [00:20:00] listen. So Thank you, Steve. I will let you now go and put your son to bed. I think it's bedtime, and I believe you won't be far behind him.

[00:20:09] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: No, I might I might fall asleep reading a book at this rate, I think but yeah, thank you. Thank you very much Ross is genuinely a pleasure to be on and yeah, if People want to talk about the part they want to comment if people want to appear then go for it Let me know and we can we can see what we can do But thank you very much.

[00:20:32] And yeah, just keep talking to each other.

[00:20:35] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: Beautiful.

[00:20:37] Ross: that's it, peace supers, part two of my Movember chat with Steve is in the back. Folks, join me in thanking Steve and check out his podcast, the Shit, Shower, and Self Care podcast. It's super important work. A big thanks to my producer Emma, and together, we'd like to reach more people with stuff that could be useful, and you can help.

[00:21:03] So,

[00:21:04] you enjoyed this episode of the podcast, we'd love you to do three things.

[00:21:08] Ross: Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe and give us a five star review, whatever platform you're on.

[00:21:16] Number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This would all help us reach more people and make some noise with stuff that could be useful. We'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at peoplesoup. pod at gmail. com. On X, formerly known as Twitter, we are at peoplesouppod. on the gram, known as insta, We are at People. Soup and on Facebook we are at PeopleSoupPod. You can also drop us a review or get in touch using a voice note on WhatsApp.

[00:21:44] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now. Time out. Thanks so much, man.

[00:21:59] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: Cool. Yeah, not a [00:22:00] problem

[00:22:00] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: we went on some meanders there, and I love it.

[00:22:03] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: Yeah, I'd say I do tend to meander. So yeah,

[00:22:06] thank you

[00:22:07] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: well take good care Steve.

[00:22:09] steve_1_11-09-2023_180256: I will well take care and i'll uh, i'll speak to you soon

[00:22:11] ross--he-him-_1_11-09-2023_190256: Yeah cheerio now. Bye