1 00:00:09,943 --> 00:00:11,343 Brian: Welcome to the Rebooting Show. 2 00:00:11,363 --> 00:00:12,573 I am Brian Marcy. 3 00:00:12,573 --> 00:00:20,017 I'm just back from Puerto Vallarta, where I spoke to a gathering of regional publishing and regional city business publishers. 4 00:00:20,073 --> 00:00:24,343 It was a great group, and also a reminder of how varied the publishing industry is. 5 00:00:24,393 --> 00:00:33,052 I mean, there are still lots of models that work, particularly on niche levels, and I consider any publication that's tied to a locality to be niche by definition. 6 00:00:33,510 --> 00:00:41,447 And talking to these publishers, you know, it was clear that You know, for all the A. I. Talk on whatnot, you know the secret to sustainable publishing businesses. 7 00:00:41,647 --> 00:00:42,827 It isn't that secret. 8 00:00:42,837 --> 00:00:46,457 I mean, it's basically to be essential to a specific audience. 9 00:00:46,497 --> 00:00:50,227 And, you know, many of these publishers, have an obvious north star. 10 00:00:50,307 --> 00:00:52,137 and they basically just have to serve. 11 00:00:52,397 --> 00:00:59,267 Their local communities, and I don't necessarily see a I changing that or platforms changing that, modernize the businesses. 12 00:00:59,267 --> 00:00:59,707 Sure. 13 00:00:59,997 --> 00:01:06,401 but these kinds of publishers, are what while not massive are very solid businesses and are feeling a clear need in the market. 14 00:01:06,401 --> 00:01:12,861 So Big thanks to the American Association of Business Publishers and the City and Regional Magazine Association for hosting me. 15 00:01:12,871 --> 00:01:13,811 I really enjoyed it. 16 00:01:14,317 --> 00:01:19,317 we are wrapping up this week our year in preview series that was supported by Xco. 17 00:01:19,577 --> 00:01:22,824 the following is a spotlight episode with Xco, CEO Tom Pakas. 18 00:01:23,144 --> 00:01:31,394 Tom and I, uh, Focus on how the programmatic ad systems that have long underpinned digital advertising, and I've been, I've been covering really 19 00:01:31,394 --> 00:01:38,254 since their beginning, have finally begun to infiltrate other media types, particularly CTV and out of home ads. 20 00:01:38,284 --> 00:01:48,291 I mean, I talk about this with Tom, but I used to have colleagues over at Media Week, like John Consoli who were covering this TV world and it was just baffling to me. 21 00:01:48,291 --> 00:01:54,561 They had an entirely different language that they spoke and what was going on in the internet. 22 00:01:54,991 --> 00:02:04,731 Particularly as programmatic began and, and held this promise of having an ad system that was more like how Nasdaq operated, that was always the way it 23 00:02:04,731 --> 00:02:12,901 was described, was completely divorced from, from the world of TV advertising, that was still very analog driven, and streaming changed all that, right? 24 00:02:13,301 --> 00:02:19,331 And it basically created similar dynamics that have now allowed. 25 00:02:19,711 --> 00:02:26,141 The programmatic at ecosystem to shift over to to see TV. 26 00:02:26,361 --> 00:02:37,370 And we also go over how Digital out of home has suddenly become a very vibrant area, you know, out of home was always sort of the most analog 27 00:02:37,790 --> 00:02:51,013 of media types and it has belatedly digitized and you see in all of the ad spending reports that out of home, is, um, Very vibrant part of the market. 28 00:02:51,114 --> 00:02:52,414 So we discussed that too. 29 00:02:53,085 --> 00:02:58,205 know, Tom has a lot of experience really with how the programmatic ad ecosystem has developed. 30 00:02:58,205 --> 00:03:05,275 So we talk about the similarities and differences, that system when it is applied to these other media types. 31 00:03:05,346 --> 00:03:06,866 So I hope you enjoy this conversation. 32 00:03:07,256 --> 00:03:10,106 Thanks again to Tom and to Xco for supporting the rebooting. 33 00:03:10,532 --> 00:03:12,482 Now on to the conversation with Tom. 34 00:03:18,920 --> 00:03:20,670 Tom, thanks for, thanks for joining me. 35 00:03:20,670 --> 00:03:22,460 My wifi might be a little wonky. 36 00:03:22,530 --> 00:03:27,400 I'm in Puerto Vallarta, where I'm speaking to a wonderful like publishers event. 37 00:03:28,245 --> 00:03:29,555 That's my disclaimer. 38 00:03:30,350 --> 00:03:36,290 Tom: thanks for having me and we're all envious of you being there and us, you know, being, being, 39 00:03:36,290 --> 00:03:37,480 wherever we are, yeah. 40 00:03:37,595 --> 00:03:38,845 Brian: yeah, don't, don't be too envious. 41 00:03:38,865 --> 00:03:42,725 I nearly got ensnared in like a timeshare, scam in the airport. 42 00:03:42,735 --> 00:03:49,415 You know, it's like, when I heard that there was, when I, when they started going, I thought I had to get, they told me how to get the taxi voucher 43 00:03:49,415 --> 00:03:53,395 from them, but then when they started talking to me about the free breakfast that I had to go to, I was like, wait, 44 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:55,130 Tom: It's 45 00:03:55,140 --> 00:03:56,570 part of the charm, I think. 46 00:03:56,570 --> 00:03:57,660 It's part of the charm, 47 00:03:58,275 --> 00:03:59,475 Brian: Oh, it's totally part of the job. 48 00:03:59,955 --> 00:04:03,795 I didn't even know that timeshares were still like a vibrant industry, but they certainly are here. 49 00:04:04,295 --> 00:04:14,165 so I was hoping today that we would talk about, hopefully you'll be game for it, but I was hoping today that we could talk about, you know, how basically the modern advertising systems that have 50 00:04:14,165 --> 00:04:24,905 defined in mostly good ways, but some like not so good ways, you know, digital publishing are now finally, finally moving to, to TV and to out of home. 51 00:04:25,167 --> 00:04:31,117 And I've always found this interesting because, you know, I, I've been covering this and around this for a long time. 52 00:04:31,117 --> 00:04:34,537 And I can remember, you know, learning about right. 53 00:04:34,537 --> 00:04:47,067 Media and addicts early on when I was at ad week and trying to wrap my head around this sort of system that was promising, at least to make it more like a NASDAQ and very sophisticated. 54 00:04:47,567 --> 00:04:53,807 And then I'd have these like colleagues at Media Week, on the other side, they were covering like TV and it was just like a totally different world. 55 00:04:53,917 --> 00:04:56,937 I was like, they might as well have been talking Esperanto. 56 00:04:56,977 --> 00:05:07,242 Like, I'm like, and to me, I was like, This stuff is so backwards, but, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting, you know, to, it's finally, really taking off with CTV and then with digital out of home. 57 00:05:07,242 --> 00:05:12,672 And so I want to talk about the, how the dynamics have shifted, and you guys are getting into this at Xco, 58 00:05:13,062 --> 00:05:19,532 and how, you know, the learnings of digital publishing, how, how they can be applied really to these new areas. 59 00:05:19,642 --> 00:05:20,232 does that sound good? 60 00:05:20,732 --> 00:05:27,445 Tom: sounds exactly, what we're, thinking about, all day long, pretty much in the past, I would say six to 12 months. 61 00:05:27,915 --> 00:05:39,984 I, I would first, you know, it's, it's very easy to tie or, you know, to couple CTV and DOOH, together, you know, so on many levels, they're 62 00:05:40,024 --> 00:05:46,194 almost the same, but on some of them, they're, they differ, especially if you look at them from an industry level, 63 00:05:46,694 --> 00:05:47,024 right? 64 00:05:47,064 --> 00:05:50,974 I mean, the biggest challenge for out of home companies today. 65 00:05:51,474 --> 00:05:54,314 Is, transitioning to digital, right? 66 00:05:54,334 --> 00:05:58,654 A lot of the billboards or things are not even digital at this point. 67 00:05:58,654 --> 00:06:02,354 And the ones that are, it's also, you know, sort of interesting. 68 00:06:02,354 --> 00:06:04,724 So you already have a digital screen. 69 00:06:05,224 --> 00:06:12,854 You see the videos or the ads, that you're very used to, but then you realize that they update. 70 00:06:13,354 --> 00:06:15,934 You know, the content once a week or 71 00:06:15,934 --> 00:06:26,448 once a day, you know, they have, an internet connection available for a few minutes a day that they can send data back to, you know, to themselves, to the advertisers. 72 00:06:26,578 --> 00:06:38,228 So, so I think, you know, while the pipes, will probably be exactly the same soon at the moment, that industry, which I'm fascinated about, Is is a bit different. 73 00:06:38,288 --> 00:06:47,268 And there is no question that the, the more the time goes by, we'll have more and more and more screens in front of us. 74 00:06:47,758 --> 00:06:52,201 And that's why I think, out of home, is the biggest next thing. 75 00:06:52,501 --> 00:06:54,090 but CTV is, big already, 76 00:06:54,263 --> 00:06:59,723 and, and, and, you know, CTVs where, we spend a lot of, of, of our time on. 77 00:07:00,706 --> 00:07:10,334 funny that you mentioned that, you know, the, the, it used to be this, side thing and, you know, different lingo, different people, uh, basically much in common. 78 00:07:10,334 --> 00:07:12,344 I think today it's sort of a split. 79 00:07:12,384 --> 00:07:15,674 So about one third of the budget. 80 00:07:15,694 --> 00:07:27,664 So we have in the U S CTV, you know, Ed spent in CTV is about 90 billion, or in TV and CTV, it's about 90 billion. 81 00:07:29,084 --> 00:07:30,754 CTV is about one third. 82 00:07:30,774 --> 00:07:32,514 So about 30 billion. 83 00:07:33,014 --> 00:07:34,364 So you still have that split. 84 00:07:34,364 --> 00:07:45,384 You still have 60 billion more or less that, you know, are discussed, talked about by different people, you know, in different conferences and events, 85 00:07:45,874 --> 00:07:51,684 and the one third that is highly familiar to us, and that's where Xco is obviously focusing. 86 00:07:51,684 --> 00:07:55,094 And I think also why our industry is highly excited. 87 00:07:55,594 --> 00:08:05,341 Cause it's not just natural organic growth that is going to happen, with more people, you know, using, connected, smart televisions and advertisers spending there. 88 00:08:05,691 --> 00:08:11,181 It's also the fact that we know that all the TV budgets would slowly. 89 00:08:11,666 --> 00:08:14,826 transform to become CTV digital budgets. 90 00:08:15,251 --> 00:08:15,591 Brian: yeah. 91 00:08:15,831 --> 00:08:26,911 It's funny because you mentioned that because like, I always felt like with that divide, you know, the programmatic grew up really with, You know, with the open web really at the end of the day. 92 00:08:27,021 --> 00:08:29,421 And it was almost like it's like training grounds. 93 00:08:29,421 --> 00:08:42,431 Like I almost feel like, and there's, there's dynamics that the, the internet had internet publishing had that made it sort of ideal for, for programmatic as an approach, right? 94 00:08:42,431 --> 00:08:53,331 There was, and, and those dynamics didn't exist in TV and there was always resistance among the, the, the TV guys, for lack of a better term, to adopting 95 00:08:53,676 --> 00:09:00,026 Programmatic and ad tech because they were having, I mean, I'm talking about like, you know, this is not that long ago. 96 00:09:00,026 --> 00:09:04,146 I mean, they had these upfronts, they had declining audiences and they had like growing up fronts. 97 00:09:04,186 --> 00:09:04,696 It was like, 98 00:09:05,706 --> 00:09:06,026 Tom: Yeah. 99 00:09:06,046 --> 00:09:06,806 Brian: was a great business. 100 00:09:06,806 --> 00:09:14,886 And then when you talk about the cable guys, even better, man, they're getting carriage fees and they're getting, and they're getting, they're getting ads, ads money. 101 00:09:14,936 --> 00:09:20,956 And so, I mean, it was like less than 10 years ago that like, I was just looking this up where John Skipper. 102 00:09:21,266 --> 00:09:26,976 Time was like basically running ESPN, and he was just like, Yeah, cord cutting. 103 00:09:27,096 --> 00:09:30,436 Nah, we're, you know, this is the best business model. 104 00:09:30,456 --> 00:09:32,316 And I like I get like, you know, you had to go out there. 105 00:09:32,316 --> 00:09:34,046 You can't go out there and be like, Oh, shit. 106 00:09:34,965 --> 00:09:41,750 Tom: And also, you know, and I don't know if it's, by the way, you said 10 years ago, I think it was true even five years ago. 107 00:09:41,850 --> 00:09:46,870 but I think, you know, that the transition is scary because you lose control. 108 00:09:47,340 --> 00:09:49,640 And also you go into this world. 109 00:09:50,140 --> 00:10:00,170 That, is sort of a self inflicting when, when thinking about, you know, how the industry developed, but do we really measure the right things? 110 00:10:00,170 --> 00:10:02,060 Do we focus on. 111 00:10:02,560 --> 00:10:05,560 You know, what the brand actually is trying to achieve. 112 00:10:05,570 --> 00:10:13,970 So we created all these KPIs that, you know, I, I can talk on behalf of them and advocate, but also does viewability 113 00:10:14,620 --> 00:10:21,090 completion rate, you know, especially with the definition of at least two seconds, what, what does it mean? 114 00:10:21,090 --> 00:10:24,080 You know, someone has, has watched two seconds of the ad. 115 00:10:24,090 --> 00:10:25,960 Does it really bring the impact? 116 00:10:26,430 --> 00:10:30,030 And I think one of the things that I like about. 117 00:10:30,530 --> 00:10:41,100 Television and, you know, sort of upfronts think they were because there was a lack of ability to really measure in the way that we do online. 118 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:49,290 I think they actually, in a way we're smarter, you know, about how to operate and spend the budget. 119 00:10:49,420 --> 00:10:50,170 I'm not sure. 120 00:10:50,180 --> 00:10:59,870 I'm not sure, you know, but that's a, almost a philosophical discussion, but I'm not sure we didn't go too far or sort of. 121 00:11:00,305 --> 00:11:04,255 You know, went off rails, when looking at, advertising online. 122 00:11:04,755 --> 00:11:13,375 Brian: Yeah, and I think a lot of the sort of resistance was, I mean, first of all, the market dynamics were different, particularly then I think streaming, changed all of this, right? 123 00:11:13,375 --> 00:11:24,725 Because TV always struck me as, almost like supply constrained where as, as, You know, the limitless nature of, of digital publishing, it was more demand constrained, right? 124 00:11:24,725 --> 00:11:37,855 I mean, when you have, you had instantly incredibly liquid, you know, markets that a programmatic system would be ideal for, whereas in TV, you know, they, And look, I, I mean, that's great. 125 00:11:37,855 --> 00:11:40,425 Scarcity is pretty good if you're a seller, right? 126 00:11:40,425 --> 00:11:40,705 Like, 127 00:11:40,965 --> 00:11:47,915 but the reality of the digital world, you can only hold that back so long, and the reality of the digital world is like scarcity goes out the window. 128 00:11:47,955 --> 00:11:48,285 I mean, 129 00:11:48,555 --> 00:11:51,105 it does exist in some areas, the Super Bowl, et cetera. 130 00:11:51,565 --> 00:12:05,605 But, you know, when, when you could, when you could keep supply capped, you know, you didn't need to, to adopt these kind of more sophisticated systems because, you know, I feel like broadly speaking. 131 00:12:06,105 --> 00:12:17,285 Look, the power of, you know, digital publishing, I think a lot of people on TV saw this, it shifted to, you know, to the demand side, to the buy side, you know, there's like tons of inventory out 132 00:12:17,285 --> 00:12:26,310 there, and they were going to use these technologies in order to find the right audiences, for their message, whereas in, in TV, I mean, just the fact that they 133 00:12:26,310 --> 00:12:34,250 could have an upfront, I don't know how long, you know, the, the IAB was trying to push this idea of like a digital upfront, you know, for, for websites. 134 00:12:34,250 --> 00:12:38,530 It was never, it never, you know, really took off, except for in a few small categories. 135 00:12:38,660 --> 00:12:44,510 but like, what do you think, I mean, was it streaming really and that taking off that really broke this open? 136 00:12:44,510 --> 00:12:47,850 Because I mean, first of all, it's being done over IP. 137 00:12:47,860 --> 00:12:53,190 So getting the systems over, you know, trying to rearchitect the. 138 00:12:53,420 --> 00:12:58,890 Technology of TV that I, I don't know, is it still running on Donovan? 139 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,310 Like, I mean, it's not exactly the most sophisticated from 140 00:13:02,475 --> 00:13:09,468 Tom: I, I would say, you know, so if you look at, so I think by the way, in terms of, you know, where, where is the constraint supply or demand, 141 00:13:09,468 --> 00:13:21,041 I think, that is already, we, that, that train has passed, there is so much content going on CTV and, new companies, you know, coming up, which is. 142 00:13:21,531 --> 00:13:28,311 Refreshing, you know, we haven't heard, when was the last time you heard of a big publisher coming out of nowhere? 143 00:13:28,411 --> 00:13:28,801 Right? 144 00:13:28,841 --> 00:13:37,071 When was the last time you heard a group of people, you know, entrepreneurs opening a new publisher and now, you know, they're trying to make it online. 145 00:13:37,091 --> 00:13:48,801 So it's actually quite refreshing for CTV that these things are happening and with it comes more inventory and already, You know, from, again, there are special 146 00:13:48,801 --> 00:13:58,401 buckets that, that this isn't true for, but, you know, currently set, in CTV 75%, of spend is done programmatically. 147 00:13:58,901 --> 00:14:05,566 So even, and, and you know, we're talking to, very big companies and even for them there is much more. 148 00:14:06,051 --> 00:14:07,131 supplied and demand. 149 00:14:07,349 --> 00:14:18,039 so again, if it's not the special event or, you know, very special slot during the day, you still have already, quite quickly, to be honest, more supplied and demand. 150 00:14:18,039 --> 00:14:25,967 And that's where, that was one of the reasons we decided to, go into, that market, and to answer your question, it's actually. 151 00:14:26,467 --> 00:14:38,757 Very, very similar to online and, and, and on many fronts, you know, from the same SSPs and companies that we know, identity solutions, similar companies, there are 152 00:14:38,777 --> 00:14:47,870 obviously special ones, but, similar, the protocols, if we're talking about vast and RTB and so on, it's the same. 153 00:14:47,870 --> 00:14:49,460 They did it. 154 00:14:49,740 --> 00:14:53,360 They didn't, there are a few, I would say, fundamental differences. 155 00:14:53,860 --> 00:15:04,400 The first being this world, has much more budgets and, and has gone much less of the scrutiny that online, did. 156 00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:10,230 So we do see a lot of waste and we can touch that, you know, where exactly and so on. 157 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:19,640 And we do see also some of the things that they, you know, in CTV, it wasn't adopted in the same way, it did on web. 158 00:15:19,710 --> 00:15:20,860 And I would say. 159 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:31,240 You know, I'm hope, I hope I'm not upsetting people, but you know, they share it's a bit of a chaos that the SPO is a big thing online. 160 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:32,190 I think it's a 161 00:15:32,190 --> 00:15:41,150 big thing in the, yeah, supply path optimization which is, which is, which is basically has a, economic value. 162 00:15:41,420 --> 00:15:46,080 To it buying from the person who's selling that's it It's 163 00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:57,400 it makes much more sense to buy from the person who sells versus going through Five hoops and you know 10 different resellers I have to say that the first 164 00:15:57,410 --> 00:16:08,235 immediate thing that we've seen going into this space that somehow that area No one is talking about it and it's a problem. 165 00:16:08,235 --> 00:16:19,565 I feel like there are a lot of hoops and, and hops and, inventory sharing and everyone is monetizing everyone's inventory in a way that, is dilutive. 166 00:16:20,065 --> 00:16:28,605 we analyze, yeah, we analyze just, you know, to give a sense, we analyze what's the impact of having a single candy. 167 00:16:29,105 --> 00:16:39,605 I have a single candy to sell, but I have hundreds of people trying to sell this candy different prices, different locations. 168 00:16:40,105 --> 00:16:50,145 What's the impact on the economy of essentially inflated virtual sense of supply while the demand is static. 169 00:16:50,645 --> 00:16:58,069 And I think that's, one of the big differences in, in CTV that we see is There is too much of that 170 00:16:58,079 --> 00:17:05,779 inflation and I think it's, not helpful both for the publisher and obviously the buy side advertisers. 171 00:17:06,374 --> 00:17:07,804 Brian: So is that just the image? 172 00:17:08,054 --> 00:17:11,994 One, I don't want to say immaturity, but is that just the fact that, I mean, it is, I guess. 173 00:17:11,994 --> 00:17:15,894 I mean, this is not as, you know, it's being transferred over. 174 00:17:15,894 --> 00:17:19,364 I mean, as you said, like a lot of the dynamics are the exact same, right? 175 00:17:19,644 --> 00:17:20,754 But some of them are different. 176 00:17:20,774 --> 00:17:30,414 Like, I mean, I just know just in personal experience, like, you know, just basic stuff like frequency capping for a while was like, I don't know, maybe it was the stuff I was seeing. 177 00:17:30,414 --> 00:17:37,944 I'm like, I'm seeing like the same ad, like constantly, like, I was like, is this like a situation where like, people are just going to where the measurement hasn't caught up? 178 00:17:38,064 --> 00:17:39,874 Like, and there's always some of that. 179 00:17:40,204 --> 00:17:41,424 Tom: yeah, yeah. 180 00:17:41,474 --> 00:17:46,504 I mean it, by the way, the, you know, seeing something like that could be many different things. 181 00:17:46,554 --> 00:17:48,944 It can relate to exactly what I mentioned. 182 00:17:48,944 --> 00:17:59,552 So, you know, the, the same slot, or, you know, the same user was now sold by nine different, mediators and, you know, the buy side thought it's a different, user, right. 183 00:17:59,562 --> 00:18:00,832 It's a different device. 184 00:18:01,292 --> 00:18:08,466 so it can be that it can also be, buyers that aren't that sophisticated about how they're buying and how it all works. 185 00:18:08,976 --> 00:18:20,294 it's always funny to me when, when we is, in our small industry talking about transparency and where I need to know where it's running and, you know, everything, all the signals. 186 00:18:20,794 --> 00:18:24,794 I'm not sure who is actioning on all of those things, right? 187 00:18:24,814 --> 00:18:25,334 In the end of the 188 00:18:25,334 --> 00:18:36,613 day, you have a system, I don't know, you know, it's almost, we need to expose how a DSP looks like you don't have a lot of, you know, controls, unless you open the 189 00:18:36,613 --> 00:18:47,123 advanced section, which no one understand or, you know, the average 80 percent of the people don't, and you still continue to transact in the same way, even though. 190 00:18:47,623 --> 00:18:53,214 you created a much more transparent environment, the transaction is done the same. 191 00:18:53,214 --> 00:18:53,590 I'll 192 00:18:54,106 --> 00:19:01,656 Brian: So what are some like of the key differences that you saw, like when you, when you guys started like looking at expanding the space, like, as you 193 00:19:01,656 --> 00:19:11,876 said, like a lot of people who, a lot of the players of programmatic that we all know have, have moved, you know, their businesses over into CTV, right. 194 00:19:11,886 --> 00:19:13,696 And that's, that's an obvious evolution. 195 00:19:13,696 --> 00:19:20,306 It's also maybe, maybe it's because, you know, the publishing sector hasn't like been like gangbusters exactly. 196 00:19:20,356 --> 00:19:22,276 And, TV is. 197 00:19:22,566 --> 00:19:23,496 TV, right? 198 00:19:23,526 --> 00:19:34,976 Like, I mean, the, you know, the internet was built off of display ads and I don't know, I mean, they never, they never reached like the same people advertisers love sight, sound, emotion, right? 199 00:19:35,026 --> 00:19:42,436 I mean, that's why the internet, for the most part, you know, has become, I think a performance marketing channel, you know, there's some brand, 200 00:19:42,936 --> 00:19:49,006 you know, obviously those things are not, completely bifurcated, but you know, with the limitless supply. 201 00:19:49,201 --> 00:19:53,311 With, you know, creative that, you know, wasn't great with display. 202 00:19:53,311 --> 00:19:54,961 Then we started getting video. 203 00:19:54,981 --> 00:19:55,851 I mean, you guys do that. 204 00:19:55,851 --> 00:19:59,361 And like, so advertisers love, love sight, sound and motion. 205 00:19:59,361 --> 00:20:02,071 They always have, and they know that it, it, it works. 206 00:20:02,071 --> 00:20:02,341 Right. 207 00:20:02,811 --> 00:20:09,441 but what were some of the sort of dynamics that you saw, that were really different, like in CTV versus like digital publishing? 208 00:20:09,441 --> 00:20:10,067 Mm hmm. 209 00:20:10,067 --> 00:20:10,381 Mm 210 00:20:11,626 --> 00:20:23,546 Tom: you know, and we're going a few levels deeper, you know, I'm not touching the different, experience from a user perspective and you know, how activations exactly work, but I'll say from, from 211 00:20:23,556 --> 00:20:39,226 our perspective, You know, Xcode has been building, quite sophisticated machine learning, engines to try and extract the most, value for the inventory, for us, the transition to, CTV took some time. 212 00:20:39,226 --> 00:20:50,046 So it's, by the way, not, not at all, because we feel like publishing isn't, you know, booming or anything like that, it was mostly because of how we operate. 213 00:20:50,046 --> 00:20:50,806 So we. 214 00:20:50,826 --> 00:20:59,257 And so one of the things that is very, was very clear that CTV. 215 00:20:59,722 --> 00:21:03,392 is a data scarce environment. 216 00:21:03,472 --> 00:21:05,502 There is, barely any of it. 217 00:21:05,852 --> 00:21:15,712 when you compare it to online, the amount of signals that, describe both the user, right, the, the, who's watching, 218 00:21:16,012 --> 00:21:24,572 the type of household, and so on, the show itself, the value, where am, where am I, am I at the beginning, 219 00:21:24,612 --> 00:21:31,789 am I, you know, at the, the, the best slot where everyone is leaning, you know, on their chair, and so on. 220 00:21:31,859 --> 00:21:33,709 There is none of that information. 221 00:21:34,204 --> 00:21:44,894 So for us, it was how to, how can we still bring value in an environment that, is missing a lot of the key parameters to increase the value of the inventory. 222 00:21:44,954 --> 00:21:53,207 There is just no easy way to describe, the, this slot, this ad slot is more valuable than that ad slot. 223 00:21:53,707 --> 00:21:58,517 And it's true, not only within a specific app, it's also true cross apps and. 224 00:21:58,797 --> 00:22:00,747 cross platforms and so on. 225 00:22:01,247 --> 00:22:02,987 and that's very different than online. 226 00:22:03,027 --> 00:22:04,267 Online is standard. 227 00:22:04,767 --> 00:22:14,427 and in CTV, every player SDK, every platform, every device send different signals in different formats. 228 00:22:14,859 --> 00:22:16,899 And, you know, not all of them. 229 00:22:16,969 --> 00:22:21,849 Some of them, some platform has, new ones that no one else is using. 230 00:22:21,849 --> 00:22:30,269 So I would say the first and foremost, the biggest difference would be standardization and lack of information. 231 00:22:30,769 --> 00:22:31,939 And that's a big problem. 232 00:22:32,039 --> 00:22:34,669 when you think of the buy side, it's a big problem. 233 00:22:35,099 --> 00:22:37,969 Brian: But does that mean that you, they, you can't be as targeted? 234 00:22:37,999 --> 00:22:42,819 Like, I mean, there's a few, like, I mean, you, you generally don't have the same number of creatives, right? 235 00:22:42,859 --> 00:22:45,659 Like, I mean, creative is the actual thing, not the people. 236 00:22:45,949 --> 00:22:56,409 but like you, you have fewer creatives than you would like if you're in a, let's just say like how it's different, like with display, I mean, display, you can have dynamic creation and 237 00:22:56,409 --> 00:23:04,379 like, I don't know, maybe AI solves this, AI solves everything, But I mean, is that like mean like you cannot be as targeted in a CTV environment? 238 00:23:04,389 --> 00:23:15,579 Which would sort of make sense because like in some ways like I don't know sometimes constraints are like good I feel like in a lot of areas and I keep going back to like podcasting and you 239 00:23:15,579 --> 00:23:25,544 know We're doing a podcast we have to talk about but you know, I think a lot of the strengths of podcasting is how like Frustratingly behind it is compared to like regular digital advertising. 240 00:23:25,594 --> 00:23:29,064 Like you can't do basic stuff like in podcasting. 241 00:23:29,104 --> 00:23:34,124 So those kind of constraints like sort of made it evolve in a, in a, in a sort of different direction. 242 00:23:34,124 --> 00:23:35,364 I'm not saying it's better or worse. 243 00:23:35,364 --> 00:23:36,074 It's just different. 244 00:23:36,074 --> 00:23:37,694 It makes it like stand out a little bit. 245 00:23:37,694 --> 00:23:40,604 Like it's not, it's like the least sophisticated, 246 00:23:41,064 --> 00:23:50,904 Tom: Even, even though, yeah, it feels like, I don't know why, but I'm not an expert in, in audio and podcasting, but it does feel to be a bit like, digital out of home. 247 00:23:50,914 --> 00:23:51,294 Right. 248 00:23:51,294 --> 00:23:51,774 So you have, 249 00:23:52,327 --> 00:23:59,162 you know, it can be the upfronts, you know, we'll, we'll, manually Plug it in, then we'll tell you what happened. 250 00:24:00,171 --> 00:24:03,870 Um, 251 00:24:04,190 --> 00:24:05,210 Brian: like that's what I'm saying. 252 00:24:05,220 --> 00:24:13,270 Like, maybe I'm not like getting into the pipes and going through the reports and stuff, but I'm like, if I'm getting Spanish language, like audio ads all the time, it's not that sophisticated. 253 00:24:13,670 --> 00:24:18,810 Tom: yeah, but it's also, but it also can be, you know, it also can be, and that's the, that's the funny thing. 254 00:24:18,810 --> 00:24:25,160 It can also be, that, you know, DSP, they just forgot to click a button or 255 00:24:25,170 --> 00:24:25,370 Brian: Yeah. 256 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:26,200 Tom: like that. 257 00:24:26,250 --> 00:24:28,000 And it's, we get that a lot. 258 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:33,360 You know, there, there is always these cases that a publisher calls us, there is a black ad. 259 00:24:33,525 --> 00:24:33,865 Okay. 260 00:24:33,865 --> 00:24:35,955 Like there is, you see nothing. 261 00:24:35,975 --> 00:24:37,915 Basically there is an ad and you see nothing. 262 00:24:38,415 --> 00:24:42,595 And the tech team goes in there and it's like, okay, what's happening? 263 00:24:42,595 --> 00:24:43,735 You know, it's our product. 264 00:24:43,735 --> 00:24:44,845 We can't allow that. 265 00:24:44,875 --> 00:24:45,505 And so on. 266 00:24:45,825 --> 00:24:48,225 And then you realize the creative is broken. 267 00:24:48,735 --> 00:24:49,175 Okay. 268 00:24:49,275 --> 00:24:57,415 and, and I always, you know, when always this happens, obviously we'll, you know, tell the publisher potentially block that campaign, which is funny, right? 269 00:24:57,415 --> 00:25:01,305 You block a campaign because it still pays money. 270 00:25:01,555 --> 00:25:01,825 Okay. 271 00:25:01,825 --> 00:25:07,055 It's still, there is still money being, and I'm thinking of who's on the other side 272 00:25:07,755 --> 00:25:09,125 that, you know, is now. 273 00:25:09,655 --> 00:25:16,735 Showing their agency or their brand, you know, all these impressions everywhere. 274 00:25:16,735 --> 00:25:22,175 And, you know, they're making big waves, while it's all black, no one is seeing anything, 275 00:25:22,460 --> 00:25:23,830 Brian: maybe the click through rate's higher. 276 00:25:24,615 --> 00:25:25,135 Tom: potentially 277 00:25:26,090 --> 00:25:27,520 Brian: We might have a bigger problem on our hands. 278 00:25:27,810 --> 00:25:28,530 No, but like, that's good. 279 00:25:28,815 --> 00:25:32,115 Tom: the viewability is great, the completion rate as well. 280 00:25:32,615 --> 00:25:35,795 Just, you know, no one is buying and we'll need to figure out why. 281 00:25:36,140 --> 00:25:37,350 Brian: They have no idea what they're seeing. 282 00:25:37,670 --> 00:25:43,240 but what is, what, so, what is it like, just like, is, is it like harder, because you have fewer signals, right? 283 00:25:43,270 --> 00:25:50,655 Like, and, and you're, they're not, they're not, Like, so I feel like, you know, programmatic went to an audience targeting direction, right? 284 00:25:50,655 --> 00:25:52,985 And it was about finding a person. 285 00:25:52,985 --> 00:26:02,755 It was the needle in the haystack and it was, and, you know, in some ways that hurt the, the media owner, I think went because it sort of commoditized the context to a degree. 286 00:26:03,135 --> 00:26:07,145 And you know, TV is very, it has been very, very different. 287 00:26:07,265 --> 00:26:09,845 so how, I don't know, how, how does that 288 00:26:10,005 --> 00:26:10,935 Tom: it's actually. 289 00:26:11,270 --> 00:26:11,660 Yeah. 290 00:26:11,660 --> 00:26:20,100 So it's actually, again, it's, surprisingly quite similar, and I'll, I'll say the differences again from different angles, but you still have an IP. 291 00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:21,650 So you know who it is. 292 00:26:21,650 --> 00:26:28,650 They can still target according to that IP if they have knowledge, and then essentially buyers can actually 293 00:26:28,660 --> 00:26:36,850 be smart and do what they do on web, which is buying in places where they recognize that user or that device. 294 00:26:37,295 --> 00:26:48,065 the context might not be as great, but it's still a 30, 15 second ad in front of the, you know, people, they, they want to see the ad. So in that sense, I think that. 295 00:26:48,565 --> 00:26:53,375 CTV publishers should be a bit smarter about what they pass and how they pass it. 296 00:26:53,375 --> 00:27:00,555 And we're talking to them, and no one does, today, but we're talking to them about segmenting their, inventory 297 00:27:01,055 --> 00:27:08,555 in ways where you obfuscate, where you don't pass some information in order to sell for a lower value. 298 00:27:08,585 --> 00:27:12,005 So if you want to, get the best of the best. 299 00:27:12,005 --> 00:27:19,517 You also get the information and so on, but if you want to run and not, a not teach, I guess, the buy side, keep 300 00:27:19,557 --> 00:27:26,537 the data in a way where you can control it and you're not being sort of, you know, quote unquote abused or used. 301 00:27:27,037 --> 00:27:32,617 but we also be able to level, and segment your inventory for different prices. 302 00:27:32,637 --> 00:27:33,867 One thing I'll say. 303 00:27:34,367 --> 00:27:43,477 Is the technologies that are being used today in the CTV space are not on par with what we see online. 304 00:27:43,637 --> 00:27:53,307 And, you know, without mentioning names, I'll say that things like unified auction, which is essentially, a way 305 00:27:53,337 --> 00:28:02,537 to call all your demand connection in parallel and be smarter about the result of the auction, they're not standard. 306 00:28:02,902 --> 00:28:13,042 In CTV and that's that was actually a surprise for us because On online, with the scrutiny of you really need to be the best of the best. 307 00:28:13,442 --> 00:28:14,442 It's obvious. 308 00:28:14,582 --> 00:28:18,732 A lot of the things that are so obvious in online just don't exist in CTV. 309 00:28:18,732 --> 00:28:32,867 So from unified auction to signal loss, on web, again, we make sure that the SSP and the DSP are getting all the signals we in CTV, there is a, a not. 310 00:28:33,367 --> 00:28:36,347 I think again, it goes back to scrutiny and competition, but. 311 00:28:36,847 --> 00:28:45,797 There is not enough attention to these things, and there is a lot of wastage that comes from not making sure the signals are being passed. 312 00:28:46,307 --> 00:28:47,057 not running an 313 00:28:47,067 --> 00:28:51,807 auction in the right way and actually calling all your demand partners at the right prices. 314 00:28:51,867 --> 00:29:02,237 Even yield itself, when you compare it to online, every AdOps team in every publisher will tell you they split prices and floors between devices. 315 00:29:02,737 --> 00:29:07,667 regions, times of day, much less exist in CTV. 316 00:29:07,687 --> 00:29:12,827 There is sort of the very naive, almost, you said 10 years ago, 317 00:29:13,257 --> 00:29:17,237 how the internet looked like 10 years ago from the publisher side. 318 00:29:17,687 --> 00:29:19,737 Now what's upsetting, and. 319 00:29:20,237 --> 00:29:24,497 That's why Xco is here, but the buy side is very sophisticated. 320 00:29:24,597 --> 00:29:32,247 The buy side is employing the exact same tools they employ online, but the publishers aren't. 321 00:29:32,702 --> 00:29:33,142 Brian: Ah, that's 322 00:29:33,247 --> 00:29:34,322 Tom: uh, yeah. 323 00:29:34,362 --> 00:29:42,742 And, and, and, you know, that's where we saw that we have, there is a market to, what we're doing and that we. 324 00:29:43,242 --> 00:29:52,852 Can definitely succeed quicker than we thought, to be honest, because we thought we'll need to refine our models for, it takes a long time. 325 00:29:52,852 --> 00:29:59,052 We have big data science teams, but still it takes, it takes months to years to refine models. 326 00:29:59,552 --> 00:30:10,432 But out of the box, we already saw great results just because of the very naive way, CTV publishers have ran their programmatic auctions. 327 00:30:11,294 --> 00:30:18,394 Brian: I mean, is that just been a technological like limitation or is that like, I don't know, I always follow the 328 00:30:18,394 --> 00:30:25,664 incentives, Tom, like, is it, you know, like, I'm just wondering why, is that just like the, the, the market hasn't matured? 329 00:30:25,664 --> 00:30:26,829 Yeah. 330 00:30:26,984 --> 00:30:29,654 Tom: I think it's a combination of lack of knowledge. 331 00:30:29,864 --> 00:30:35,774 while there are very knowledgeable people in the industry, there's also on new people to this industry. 332 00:30:35,824 --> 00:30:43,751 maybe people that, you know, historically worked at TV and now they're in this new space and, there is a lack of knowledge there. 333 00:30:43,761 --> 00:30:46,647 I think there is definitely lack of, technology. 334 00:30:47,147 --> 00:30:50,817 And also there, there are a lot of budgets. 335 00:30:51,317 --> 00:30:58,367 And in an environment, you know, sort of constraints and limitations make you better. 336 00:30:58,929 --> 00:31:04,879 know, you, you need to be just more efficient, smarter, faster when there are a lot of budgets and all 337 00:31:04,879 --> 00:31:13,319 you can do is, supposedly connect, you know, a pipe or connect the plug and suddenly money's flowing. 338 00:31:13,819 --> 00:31:21,004 You potentially can, from a positive perspective, you know, from a negative, I'll just call it a laziness in a 339 00:31:21,004 --> 00:31:27,254 way, but from a positive perspective, you're just missing out on a huge opportunity, that you can tap into. 340 00:31:28,064 --> 00:31:30,384 Brian: So let's talk about, let's talk about out of home, right? 341 00:31:30,385 --> 00:31:36,759 Cause we talk about like a market that was sort of behind the times and like, It really was like, I mean, I, it was billboards, right. 342 00:31:36,829 --> 00:31:38,019 And it was static. 343 00:31:38,149 --> 00:31:43,779 Like this is like the internet circa like 1997 or something. 344 00:31:43,859 --> 00:31:44,239 Right. 345 00:31:44,569 --> 00:31:49,089 and it's funny, the U S out of home market, I always felt was, was even further behind. 346 00:31:49,089 --> 00:31:55,099 I'd go to like, you know, Europe or go to like can and like JC Decoe would have like, I mean, just the fact that they 347 00:31:55,099 --> 00:32:00,359 were swapping in different billboards, like, you know, like I was like, wow, that's really, really sophisticated. 348 00:32:00,359 --> 00:32:01,649 And that wasn't that long ago. 349 00:32:01,700 --> 00:32:09,090 But now like, you know, I, I know in like the New York city subways first got like digital, like signage, you know, it was like, Oh, they're going to get broken constantly. 350 00:32:09,090 --> 00:32:10,120 And like, they're fine. 351 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:11,110 Like it's normal now. 352 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:15,650 It's like, you go around and you're like, Oh my God, there's like, there's screens everywhere. 353 00:32:15,650 --> 00:32:19,767 Not just in billboard places, but they're like, there's screens like all over the place. 354 00:32:19,867 --> 00:32:24,917 and, You know, and this was, it seems like this is an industry sector. 355 00:32:24,927 --> 00:32:26,437 That's why I find it really fascinating. 356 00:32:26,437 --> 00:32:36,037 Cause when you go down, you know, add spending reports, you know, that's like flat for publishing to up a little bit, you know, magazines, you know, obviously the platforms are doing fine. 357 00:32:36,047 --> 00:32:39,977 Retail media is growing puns and like digital out of home is like. 358 00:32:40,242 --> 00:32:41,832 It's growing like nicely. 359 00:32:41,832 --> 00:32:49,982 Like, I mean, I saw one report that, you know, on a compound growth rate of the next five years, these are always like, you know, forecasts. 360 00:32:49,982 --> 00:32:55,582 So, take them what you will, but you know, compound growth rate of 18. 361 00:32:55,582 --> 00:33:06,782 5%. so, you know, is this just catch up in some ways, because this was an analog medium that was like, Decidedly old school for, for a long time. 362 00:33:07,342 --> 00:33:08,622 Tom: I think there is a lot of that. 363 00:33:08,632 --> 00:33:12,552 I think there is, similar to the transition between TV and CTV. 364 00:33:12,552 --> 00:33:16,992 So you see that grow, by the way, incredible growth for that industry. 365 00:33:16,992 --> 00:33:28,472 But I think it's, Nothing compared to what it's going to be, but a lot of it probably comes from just my group migrating, you know, an old billboard to now become a screen. 366 00:33:28,472 --> 00:33:32,902 And now I call it a digital out of home and that that's growing. 367 00:33:33,302 --> 00:33:41,888 but just, more of it also comes from the fact there are more and more and more screens, I think very soon we're going to drop all these terms. 368 00:33:41,888 --> 00:33:42,828 I'll be honest. 369 00:33:43,018 --> 00:33:46,978 we, we just, you know, a nice startup company reached out to us. 370 00:33:47,008 --> 00:33:51,902 They're selling, these smart devices on, carts in the supermarket. 371 00:33:51,922 --> 00:33:52,212 Right. 372 00:33:52,212 --> 00:33:58,442 So you'll take, Like this shopping cart and there would be, an iPad, like an, you know, a device on 373 00:33:58,442 --> 00:33:58,932 it. 374 00:33:59,302 --> 00:34:00,132 And, yeah. 375 00:34:00,132 --> 00:34:01,332 And, and, but by 376 00:34:01,332 --> 00:34:01,452 the 377 00:34:01,462 --> 00:34:02,682 Brian: don't know how I feel about this. 378 00:34:02,752 --> 00:34:03,092 Tom: yeah, 379 00:34:03,172 --> 00:34:03,862 Brian: it first, but my, my, 380 00:34:04,402 --> 00:34:11,512 Tom: no, the funny thing I'll say first is they've built a wonderful product that, that brings value without ads. 381 00:34:11,632 --> 00:34:12,022 Okay. 382 00:34:12,032 --> 00:34:14,822 Which is unheard of to some, some of us, but, 383 00:34:14,922 --> 00:34:18,992 Brian: I'm imagining a sound on autoplay when I'm going to the Publix. 384 00:34:20,962 --> 00:34:21,142 Tom: yeah, 385 00:34:22,012 --> 00:34:22,202 be 386 00:34:22,222 --> 00:34:27,512 Brian: I mean, they've solved the, they've solved the, the one wheel, like not working problem, it seems like. 387 00:34:27,512 --> 00:34:28,272 So yeah, maybe 388 00:34:28,287 --> 00:34:28,757 Tom: Yeah. 389 00:34:28,817 --> 00:34:29,217 Yeah. 390 00:34:29,537 --> 00:34:31,017 So that's the next step, right? 391 00:34:31,047 --> 00:34:32,817 how, how can we show you more ads? 392 00:34:32,837 --> 00:34:42,887 But, but, but really it's, so they've built out a great app, you know, helps you buy on the right, you know, if you're searching for a product, you'll get the right aisle for it and so on. 393 00:34:43,257 --> 00:34:49,217 And, and now, you know, they reached out and they want to do some video content and, and video ads. 394 00:34:49,567 --> 00:34:50,075 great. 395 00:34:50,075 --> 00:34:54,945 You know, Xco can, can work out of the box or all great, but what is it? 396 00:34:55,445 --> 00:34:57,185 Is it native? 397 00:34:57,535 --> 00:35:00,375 cause you know, it's a, it's an Android device. 398 00:35:00,605 --> 00:35:03,025 Only a single person is now in front of it. 399 00:35:03,525 --> 00:35:04,945 Is it out of home? 400 00:35:05,445 --> 00:35:07,185 You know, it's not one too many. 401 00:35:07,525 --> 00:35:09,915 Is it, what is it exactly, right? 402 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:11,300 Brian: Could be retail media, 403 00:35:11,475 --> 00:35:12,505 Tom: retail media. 404 00:35:12,505 --> 00:35:12,855 right? 405 00:35:13,295 --> 00:35:17,595 If I, if I want to, increase valuation, then it's definitely, retail media. 406 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:24,370 With AI, but, but, yeah, that is very friendly with curation, but, but it's a real question, right? 407 00:35:24,370 --> 00:35:26,280 It's a real question of what is it. 408 00:35:26,780 --> 00:35:33,290 And, you know, going back early to the conversation, it's, it's a lot up to the buy side. 409 00:35:33,370 --> 00:35:36,410 I think, I think we can look at all these things. 410 00:35:36,460 --> 00:35:40,380 It's sort of location based advertising. 411 00:35:40,490 --> 00:35:43,700 You know, it almost doesn't matter who the user is. 412 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,840 You know, what screen it is, is it small? 413 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:47,750 Is it big? 414 00:35:48,140 --> 00:35:51,310 I know the location, there is a lot of value in that. 415 00:35:51,340 --> 00:36:01,750 And I, one of the things that we talk about at Xco a lot is that we really want to bridge the huge gap between supply and demand. 416 00:36:01,850 --> 00:36:08,640 I think that if, companies like Xco and others would really have a sit down with the buy side. 417 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:18,241 I think we'll be able to, push this industry much faster to the right direction, versus the sort of church and state separation and blame 418 00:36:18,261 --> 00:36:20,091 games that we currently have. 419 00:36:20,586 --> 00:36:31,586 Brian: what, what are the supply and demand dynamics in, in like digital out of home and how, you know, what, what is, is there a difference there when it comes to CTV? 420 00:36:31,991 --> 00:36:32,941 Or is this similar? 421 00:36:33,441 --> 00:36:36,701 Tom: Wow, that's, that's a risky question you just asked me. 422 00:36:36,701 --> 00:36:36,921 I don't 423 00:36:36,921 --> 00:36:38,531 know, the guy, the guy on the 424 00:36:38,671 --> 00:36:39,881 Brian: doesn't seem that risqué. 425 00:36:40,281 --> 00:36:42,121 Tom: ah, well, hold on a second. 426 00:36:42,411 --> 00:36:48,831 there, there are funnels and paths that are dedicated for out of home. 427 00:36:49,131 --> 00:36:53,291 everyone on these value chains know exactly what it is. 428 00:36:53,771 --> 00:36:59,991 there is a way, you know, the impression multiplier, there are vendors that measure that, and so on. 429 00:37:00,491 --> 00:37:13,471 The, it gets a bit more, blurry, in all the cases in between, and when you have real connected devices, let's take the example I just gave, I'm not only gonna 430 00:37:13,471 --> 00:37:21,781 call the out of home SSPs, I'm now gonna call all the standard normal SSPs, And I'm not sure what the definition for that is. 431 00:37:22,076 --> 00:37:23,226 is it out of home? 432 00:37:23,296 --> 00:37:24,486 Is it native? 433 00:37:24,616 --> 00:37:26,356 It's definitely not CTV, right? 434 00:37:26,356 --> 00:37:28,316 No one is sitting at their 435 00:37:28,561 --> 00:37:29,041 Brian: I don't know. 436 00:37:29,041 --> 00:37:32,961 A lot of people, a lot of people try to stretch the CTV definition. 437 00:37:33,061 --> 00:37:41,011 I, I mean, not, look, there's, there's a financial interest in it, in, you know, stretching it as to what qualifies as CTV. 438 00:37:41,081 --> 00:37:44,161 I mean, isn't that, the IAB has been battling with this, right? 439 00:37:44,366 --> 00:37:54,926 Tom: There is, there is, definitely a financial incentive, which by the way, is what I, generally, I think that the buy side is really dictating a lot, of the behavior, the good and the bad. 440 00:37:55,191 --> 00:37:55,451 Brian: Yeah. 441 00:37:55,511 --> 00:37:57,231 Well, incentives drive everything, right? 442 00:37:57,351 --> 00:37:58,331 Show me the incentives. 443 00:37:58,331 --> 00:37:59,311 Let's show you the results. 444 00:38:00,316 --> 00:38:10,246 Tom: But, also when you start asking the reason I said it's a risky question, when, when we started very naively, and by the way, we're not like strong in the out of home space, yet, 445 00:38:10,796 --> 00:38:14,706 but when we started asking the most naive questions, you know, what is it? 446 00:38:15,206 --> 00:38:15,986 The answer is yes. 447 00:38:16,376 --> 00:38:25,336 range of answers that I got, including, let us go and check, and I'm talking about big SSPs, big DSPs. 448 00:38:25,366 --> 00:38:28,226 It's like, no one knows, you know, no one knows. 449 00:38:28,226 --> 00:38:34,776 And it's like, it's sort of, you know, do it until someone tells you to do something else. 450 00:38:34,836 --> 00:38:39,366 and that's, you know, that's the sort of thing that I would hope that will solve quicker. 451 00:38:39,366 --> 00:38:40,326 And we can. 452 00:38:40,801 --> 00:38:46,461 Decide later on to change our minds, but we we shouldn't leave these areas as blurry as we do 453 00:38:46,961 --> 00:38:47,691 Brian: How do I put this? 454 00:38:47,701 --> 00:38:51,241 Is there, is there, is there more opacity in these areas? 455 00:38:51,241 --> 00:39:00,991 Cause I mean, look, the, the history of a lot of like digital publishing is like, there's, it's so vast that where opacity lists or exists, you know, there's all 456 00:39:00,991 --> 00:39:06,011 kinds of different characters you enter in and there's, you know, look, there's, there's, there's money to be made. 457 00:39:06,011 --> 00:39:13,061 Like, is there a lot, is there too much opacity in these areas just because of, they're immature or the way they're like structured? 458 00:39:13,431 --> 00:39:22,391 Tom: I'm, i'm not sure, you know, and maybe i'm too primed with my own thoughts of I think that the lack of communication between the buy side and sell side 459 00:39:22,771 --> 00:39:35,962 and the Anxiety the sell side asking basic questions, uh in fear You know, negative impact, just the fear of them asking 460 00:39:35,962 --> 00:39:44,362 the question or presenting what they're doing, that would negatively impact them, has created this, this situation. 461 00:39:44,462 --> 00:39:48,792 and, and I don't think it's, obviously as time goes by, you get smarter. 462 00:39:49,147 --> 00:39:57,027 And you, are able to touch topics, slowly and gently, whether through conferences, cocktails, you know, IAB 463 00:39:57,057 --> 00:40:05,057 meetings and so on, but I think it's mostly the, the lack of communication that currently, is putting us where we are, 464 00:40:05,557 --> 00:40:11,317 Brian: So final thing is, well, these like areas becoming more sophisticated and like, you know, 465 00:40:11,377 --> 00:40:18,697 moving to, you know, programmatic and the regular sort of way that digital advertising is, is transacted. 466 00:40:18,747 --> 00:40:25,507 Cause I think it's very obvious that like, it's like how the internet was is going to like kind of swallow everything. 467 00:40:25,517 --> 00:40:27,107 Like it, it, it really already is. 468 00:40:27,427 --> 00:40:35,247 And, internet one as always, uh, it's good to bet on the internet, cause it, it's got a good track record. 469 00:40:35,427 --> 00:40:40,037 but is, does this put a lot of pressure on. 470 00:40:40,887 --> 00:40:43,537 Quote unquote traditional like digital publishers, right? 471 00:40:43,537 --> 00:40:49,847 Because, you know, a lot of that sophistication is now more broadly available. 472 00:40:50,357 --> 00:40:56,767 And some of these other, however you want to define them, you know, these other like formats and these other 473 00:40:56,767 --> 00:41:02,367 types of media have some advantages that a lot of, you know, a lot of digital publishing doesn't have. 474 00:41:02,397 --> 00:41:05,637 Cause it seems like, you know, there's going to be even more competition. 475 00:41:05,637 --> 00:41:09,147 Cause I mean, already, I always think like, look, all that retail media. 476 00:41:09,222 --> 00:41:20,202 growth can't just come out of like shopper marketing budgets, you know, all the CTV growth can't just come from, from, you know, traditional or linear TV spending. 477 00:41:20,282 --> 00:41:25,682 I mean, how much is this going to impact digital publishers? 478 00:41:26,182 --> 00:41:27,602 Tom: that's a very good question. 479 00:41:27,602 --> 00:41:28,832 I think, For sure. 480 00:41:28,842 --> 00:41:30,942 We're talking about a zero sum game. 481 00:41:31,327 --> 00:41:45,027 in the sense that while there would be very efficient outlets to spend budget and so on, there is still You know, finite amount of budget every year that goes into all of these channels together. 482 00:41:45,527 --> 00:41:48,087 the role of a publisher needs to evolve. 483 00:41:48,087 --> 00:41:50,917 It's something that we're talking to our partners a lot. 484 00:41:50,917 --> 00:41:58,897 And also our role, as a company, as a vendor, as a partner that helps publishers monetize better. 485 00:41:59,397 --> 00:42:04,717 I need my responsibilities to do that cross platforms and mediums. 486 00:42:05,137 --> 00:42:13,287 in, in, if I do my job well, it would be an easy, or an easier decision for the publisher to now. 487 00:42:13,787 --> 00:42:18,787 expand beyond, you know, the domain that they currently own. 488 00:42:19,207 --> 00:42:20,737 Definitely into CTV. 489 00:42:20,747 --> 00:42:22,927 And I actually think into out of home as well. 490 00:42:23,427 --> 00:42:27,467 we also think about that as from a user experience perspective. 491 00:42:27,467 --> 00:42:29,587 So we're going to launch soon a product that. 492 00:42:30,087 --> 00:42:36,007 We believe would dramatically improve the consumption of video for publishers. 493 00:42:36,037 --> 00:42:40,687 Cause I think the way it's done today is a sub optimal, to say the least. 494 00:42:41,187 --> 00:42:57,324 there is a lot of room and I hope publishers won't miss that window to collaborate with both retail media, CTV, social, one of the things that, you know, I'll say it here. 495 00:42:57,824 --> 00:43:05,324 I call out to publishers, there is a lot of great creators out there on social that all 496 00:43:05,334 --> 00:43:07,014 they want are eyeballs. 497 00:43:07,034 --> 00:43:09,714 These are people that all of us are watching and following. 498 00:43:09,844 --> 00:43:14,424 and, and, you know, I'm not talking about dogs riding skateboards. 499 00:43:14,424 --> 00:43:17,894 I'm talking about political analysis, economy, ed tech. 500 00:43:18,394 --> 00:43:21,224 They should collaborate and bring these guys in. 501 00:43:21,364 --> 00:43:24,004 I think the publisher's role should evolve. 502 00:43:24,434 --> 00:43:33,744 They're great at creating content, at covering, you know, from news to entertainment, and they should explore, 503 00:43:33,934 --> 00:43:42,064 just like we went from, you know, the print to digital, it's time for them to think, how can I be on every screen? 504 00:43:42,564 --> 00:43:48,844 And, people like Xco would help on the revenue tech stack side. 505 00:43:49,324 --> 00:43:51,494 Other companies could help with other things. 506 00:43:51,494 --> 00:43:55,444 And some of that would go back to their core and how they do that. 507 00:43:55,944 --> 00:43:58,174 But, there is no question. 508 00:43:58,174 --> 00:44:02,104 So I tried, you know, I colored everything in a very positive way. 509 00:44:02,604 --> 00:44:13,854 if we'll continue for online publishers to just be that domain, not expand, not explore, not try and see how we can get our content out there in different forms and shapes. 510 00:44:14,354 --> 00:44:27,049 I am worried that the budgets that they'll see would go down year over year because there will just be more outlets, just, just, just mere volumes, not even quality or just mere volumes would be. 511 00:44:27,549 --> 00:44:30,009 more options out there outside the 512 00:44:36,059 --> 00:44:37,179 Brian: the dog on the skateboard. 513 00:44:37,259 --> 00:44:39,999 I actually, I actually met the dog on the skateboard one time. 514 00:44:40,399 --> 00:44:46,279 I did judge some Mashable awards, but I, for some reason I, I, I needed to share that 515 00:44:46,816 --> 00:44:47,686 Tom: That's awesome. 516 00:44:47,686 --> 00:44:54,162 And, and, you know, it's like, nice to say that, for every, Two high quality, you know, pieces of content. 517 00:44:54,622 --> 00:44:56,462 We need that dog on a skateboard. 518 00:44:56,462 --> 00:44:57,762 And that's also something 519 00:44:57,957 --> 00:45:01,177 Brian: unfortunately, unfortunately that dog passed away, from my understanding. 520 00:45:01,247 --> 00:45:01,417 but 521 00:45:01,482 --> 00:45:02,522 Tom: rest in peace. 522 00:45:02,552 --> 00:45:02,812 Yeah. 523 00:45:02,812 --> 00:45:03,832 I'm so I'm sorry. 524 00:45:03,832 --> 00:45:04,842 Uh, sorry to hear 525 00:45:05,302 --> 00:45:05,662 Brian: Awesome. 526 00:45:05,712 --> 00:45:06,642 Tom, thank you so much. 527 00:45:06,642 --> 00:45:07,062 This was really fun. 528 00:45:07,587 --> 00:45:08,037 Tom: Brian. 529 00:45:08,037 --> 00:45:08,677 Thank you.