Shaun

One of the things I've had to do in therapy is to work through and to accept. There's things I'm going to know. And there's some things I may never know.

Alex

Welcome to stories of men beneath the surface. I'm Alex Melia. Join me as we discover what it means to be a man in the modern era.

Sometimes a childhood incident, something we're too young to even remember properly, can affect our whole lives. In this episode, we'll hear how one man is making sense of his childhood trauma and learning to live with OCD. On Christmas Eve way back in 2000, it was snowing in London. six year old Sean was thrilled about having a white Christmas with his family. His dad took him on a special last minute shopping trip.

Shaun

My father took me to Debenhams in Clapham Junction, which was a massive department store at a time and he bought me a dictionary as an early Christmas present. What's very common in the typical Caribbean household is education is known as a passport to the future is known as a way out of poverty. So I believe that my father bought it for me, so I can understand the world around me. The next day, which was Christmas day, I was woken up in the morning by my mum, my father was having a heart attack. He was on the toilet and he was holding his chest. My mum brought him into the bedroom that asleep and now and started to perform CPR. My mom was a nurse, so she always trained me for this moment. She told me to go and call the ambulance. So I went into my mom's room. I picked up the phone I called 999. I was quite calm, because I don't believe I really understood what was happening. I don't really remember how my mum was but I remember there was a sense of panic and dread in the air. When the ambulance came, and they rushed upstairs, and they were trying to help my dad, everything else was a blur. My mum was quite distraught, and I could see it in her eyes. She was combing her hair shaking very nervous.

So by the time we went to go and see him he was dead on as well. He was dead by the time my dad died in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. And I will never forget, my mum was holding me in her arms. And I said to my mum, Is Dad coming back and she said no Dad's gone to heaven. Now. I didn't understand the magnitude of what was happening. My dad was not coming back.

Alex

How do you think your life has changed since your father's died?

Shaun

My dad was known to be one of the kindest, most given and an incredibly gentle man, a man who was a real DIY expert, he would do everything around the house, he was known by all my neighbours and all my family friends for being such an incredible man. And I think what hurts is I never really remembered or had the chance to experience him in its full glory. When I got older, and I realised are things that my mom couldn't teach me, she couldn't teach me to shave. It's a very different feeling. Having a man in your life that allows you that space to teach you what it is to be a man and to allow you to transition from boyhood into manhood. I think quite often there's a disconnect. So yeah, it was only until I got older, I realised, wow, I don't have a father in it. And it actually has really affected me that warmth, that masculine love from a man that discipline and that guidance, not what my mum did at times, which was overcompensation. And in the Caribbean, something that's quite common is beating your child. And I think beating your child at the end of the day is child abuse. And it's not something I would agree with. But this is probably me being raised as a Western child. But interesting enough, when my mum used to be me, there's one thing I always felt, I felt her frustration when she used to hit me. And it's because I knew she wanted what was best for me. But I knew she was struggling without my dad around. So that's something I really do recognise growing up, and it's quite hard to find forgiveness. But it's something I'm still wrestling with right now. My mum stopped driving to places she knew she no longer knew. After my dad died, my mom no longer had the courage and the bravery to be able to and it's one of the reasons why I have a lot more courage and bravery now for myself, because I've seen the effects and the damage that my father's death has had on my mum. And whilst my dad died, he didn't die so that I stopped living. And this is why I work so hard in therapy. I tried to work through my trauma and it's still not easy. It's still one of the hardest things.

Alex

It must have been an incredibly challenging time for him, but then also to have to deal with her own personal issues at the same time.

Shaun

My mom grew up in a time of sort of a survival mindset whereas I'm quite lucky that thanks to my mom's sacrifices, I am where I am now. I have been given a lot of hope. tunity is thanks to my hard work, but also to the way my mom has raised me. My mom said, she doesn't know how I got the voice that I've got now. So I'm very open, I talk very candidly about my experiences. Because my mom's a lot more reserved, she's a lot more shy a lot more to herself in the Caribbean community. You know, it's if there's issues, you sweep it under the carpet. So I speak openly about my experiences, because I know what it is to suffer in silence and to wonder things in silence.

Alex

From what you're saying about your relationship with your mother, it's making me reflect back on the relationship I have with my mother. And I feel like I've done a lot of rescuing before and trying to help her. And I also speak to a therapist as well. And we constantly talking about being a prenta phi child, maybe the role that you've played with your mother as well as your, your the child, but your parents in her and I said to my mother, maybe four or five months ago, I said, I can't do this anymore, because it's really draining energy wise to keep having to rescue and help this help with her problems and the situations that she's finding herself in. Have you found that that to be something that's been difficult for you as well,

Shaun

I think I've been the exact opposite of her parents are fight child. I think if anything, my mom's tried to cocoon me and hide me away from any sense of real responsibility. And I've actually fought very long and hard to have responsibility. But I think that's a trauma response. Let me explain why. I believe that the day I'm no, I no longer need my mum, my mum will probably feel a bit useless and no longer needed any more as simple as that. And I think a lot of moms quite often want to feel needed because that's where their purpose derives from. And that's something I've noticed if my mum so when I say to my mom, I've had to argue about paying the bills, I've had to argue about sorting things out in the house, there's, I've had to argue, to fight my place to feel like in many ways, perhaps what we would understand typically as a man, to have that responsibility and to have that accountability. And when I was in Trinidad, one of my cousin's from very young used to pay her mom's bills, and she, she would go to the bank, and I was like, wow, I would love to be able to do that just something's as fun is that you know, to earn your parents trust. But that's not something my mom ever allowed me to be able to do. You know, I know my mom had good intentions by Kmart in the worst possible ways. My mom was trying to protect me from the world. And quite often, fathers raised their children in competition to the world, we understand that there's so many kids out there, we tried to teach our children to be the best, whereas mothers treat children as if they are their world. And at times, they can be accused of mollycoddling helicopter parenting. And I think my mom at times was probably a helicopter parent and mollycoddled me, she really was always wired for me. And it did me no good as a child growing up, I had to rebel and I had and my rebellion was in, going out and doing drugs, getting piercings, it was, I want to go out and just play football and just be left alone and be trusted to come back home. I was a good kid. And I think I became quite frustrated by feeling like I didn't have my mums trust, but now I understand. It wasn't just trust, it was my mum projecting her trauma onto me.

Alex

It makes me think of a really good book that I've read for years called The Way of the Superior Man. I don't like the title because it's superior sounds like men are superior to women, but it's not really not like that in the book. And I'm curious what you think of this, it says that men's main objective in life is their purpose, whatever it is, they're trying to go after so for you, obviously, you know, you've been a TED speaker, journalist, model, etc. And that's your that's your ultimate goal in life. But for women, it says in the book about their their sole purpose in life is love. And it seems to be seems to be that way that your your dad had this purpose for you that he wanted, you know, with your education, but your mother, you will be the apple of your mother's eye and you were the main thing in her life. So I'm just curious what you think about that and about your, your place in the world. And if you have daughters and sons what their purpose would be to

Shaun

my mum also did want me to be very educated. She always raised me with the idea that unfortunately, as a black boy, we have to work two to three times as hard so this is why I work so hard to make sure that I whatever no can be turned into a yes. Even if it's not racism or discrimination. I want it to turn into a yes, you're right. I think men we do often like to feel like we have a role to fulfil, we have something to do when needed were cherished or wanted, whereas I think we've women, it's so it's more so the idea not only of procreation, but to have unconditional love by something and to nurture it and to raise and I think these things are evolutionary bound and based within us most of the time and that's quite controversial based on the world we live in now because it's classed as deterministic. But I would like to believe my daughter or my son would be able to choose whatever they want to do in this world and I wouldn't be too fussed about it. As long as they're happy. I'm trying to have more of an open mind in comparison to my upbringing.

Alex

Sean, I'm curious about your experiences with your therapist. How long have you been out? Have you had a therapist? And what's been the benefit to you? Because I've, I started seeing a counsellor about a year and a half ago. She helped me with it with a few things there. And yeah, I just love to hear more about your experiences. Tell me about your therapist.

Shaun

So I've been in therapy for only about five to six years. So I was having a lot of intrusive thoughts I said around sexual orientation, sexual assault and suicide, and then I woke up one Saturday and I just said, I couldn't do this anymore. I needed help. For anyone with OCD. It feels like you're absolutely stuck in a turmoil. It feels like your mind is not always making sense. And I went on Instagram and thanks to the algorithm I found my current therapist, which is her name is Emma Garrick otherwise known as the anxiety whisperer on Instagram and Sahara oh so much because I've got the right help that I need for OCD, which is CBT ERP, which is cognitive behavioural therapy and exposure response prevention. When people have intrusive thoughts, everybody gets intrusive thoughts, right? If you have the wrong therapist, and they don't realise they can put you further down the rabbit hole. Everyone knows anxiety is an endless loop. So I've done psychodynamic therapy, I've done grief therapy to help with my death of my father, I've done other types of therapy, don't get me wrong, they have helped. But for OCD, I needed something very, very specific. So my therapist, she's a white Scottish woman, and she has been fantastic. I've never felt closer to someone therapy has been a lifeline for me,

Alex

what do you think about the power of a female therapist, a female counsellor, because my counsel is also a woman, and I specifically wanted a woman and I think there's some, there's some feminine energy that I think men need when it comes to vulnerability opening up and just being comfortable, because I don't think I could open up to her. The way in the way I do with a mat with a male counsellor just don't think that I just don't think I would be comfortable doing that.

Shaun

Because my therapist reminds me of the mother that I would have loved to have had you know, someone who cares about me, someone who genuinely wants the best for me, I think that's where I've seen the real power of having a female therapist, you can tell they want the best for you. Whereas I think with a guy, sometimes it's a little bit more of that detachment style, which can quite often remind me of other relationships I've had with uncles, and other men in my life, whereas I think I need it, I need that not the not too close square, you start to blur the boundaries, but close enough that I can feel safe, but at a distance enough to know that I'm not pushing the boundary. And I think a female therapist for me has been able to do that for me better than a male therapist has been able to. And interestingly, when I was doing psychodynamic therapy, my therapist was a black guy named woman. And I felt like I couldn't open up to her about certain things, because she reminded me too much of my aunties. So I needed someone who was not only from a different culture, but probably from a different race. Whereas for other people, from my community, and ethnic communities in general, they probably prefer having somebody from the same community as them. Whereas for me, I've found I've needed the exact opposite to allow me to flourish, to allow someone to have that sense of ignorance where they don't really understand everything that happens in the culture. And I can tell them, as I'm learning myself, in therapy, one of the biggest cognitive distortions with OCD, or anybody that has anxiety is black and white thinking. And when you think in black and white, it's absolutely so you need to learn to live in a grey area. And my therapist said, it's funny, I'm a white woman, and you're a black man, it plays on the idea, especially in the time that we're living in a lot of division and polarisation, where a lot of the time we hate people simply for who they who we think they are, not who they actually are, who we believe they could be. And having the focus I've had, it's just been it's been fantastic.

Alex

It's interesting, you say that about black and white thinking, because I remember someone said to me, ages ago, I say things like, you always do this, you never do that. Why do you think we do that? Why do we not live in the grey more,

Shaun

I suppose, because we were raised with this idea in society that we must be certain about everything. Now, when you think about it, you're supposed to go to school, you're supposed to get your studies, get your qualifications, you're supposed to maybe go on a vocational course, maybe go to Sixth Form College, go to university after university, you're supposed to do a nine to five. In many ways, your life is supposed to be extremely set out for you from the get go. We no longer know how to embrace uncertainty, because I think in many ways, our life is so engineered a type of way that we're supposed to know everything. So one of the things I've had to learn of OCD is when I feel anxious, or when I'm not sure what's going to happen, I have to sit with that feeling sit with that discomfort. And I find it quite empowering. So humans need structure and routine. But within that, as you said, we need that grey, we need it because the black and white are not the only two places we can operate in.

Alex

We are living in an uncertain world, aren't we? We constantly have this sort of need to control things I that's been an issue in my life. There's need for control. Do you have that? sort of thing playing on your mind a lot as well about control. And how do you deal with that?

Shaun

Do you know what it is, as I'm saying this to you, I was reading through one of my school reports a couple of weeks ago. And one of the school reports when I was young, so I used to stutter as well. And, um, they believed it was because of the trauma of my dad's death. So I used to have to get speech therapy. And one of my school reports and said, Shawn is very insecure about his relationships, he feels the need to control his friends. And as I grew up, I used to be a bit like that. And I realised I was lighter, because I was afraid to lose my friends, I was afraid to not be in control, I was afraid that, like, my dad died and didn't have a choice that my friends would leave me out of a choice. So I think it played on ideas of insecurity within myself. But now, when I catch myself trying to control things, I sit back, and I say to myself, Shawn, I don't need to do that. And I've had to learn. What's good for me, doesn't mean it's always good for my friends in the past. And there's times when I catch myself being like this now where, if I do something, I want my friends to come and get involved, because I love the company. And I want them to feel the happiness and that elation that I feel after remember, Shawn, what makes them happy is probably very different than what makes me happy. But I've also noticed, I love a project. And I like a project and friendships, and I've had to stop myself from doing that, because I like to give I've got naturally and a very nurturing and a very caring side, but at times that can come across as very dictatorial, and very authoritarian. So again, I've had to sit and say to myself, what am I really doing this for. And with OCD, the way I've been able to help myself recover and to continue to recover has been to pull myself out of victim mindset. And to pull yourself out of our victim mindset is to help others because being of service to others, boosts your confidence and boosts your self esteem by shows you that there's more in the world. But whilst I've been able to do that, again, I've had to find that fine line of helping people, but not pushing my ideology and my agenda on them. When I was younger, I was really guilty of doing that if I went vegan, my friends went vegan, if I wanted to do something, my friends would do it. But that also could be as a result of, I do have quite a naturally a very domineering personality. So I've had to also be self aware that with great power comes an incredible amount of responsibility, as Uncle Ben says, or I'm paraphrasing, I'm adding my own little thing on tour

Alex

was that was that super Superman or Spider Man

Shaun

inspiring power comes great responsibility. So I've recognised that I do hold a lot of power. And I've had to become more not only a leader, but an ethical leader, someone who have good morals and good values and ethics that help other people be the best that they want to be not who I want them to be.

Alex

We have this transactional feeling sometimes as human beings out, don't we that we feel like, well, we if we help this person this much, then they'll help us back at some point in time, as I've got older, I've realised that we can help other people. And we're doing it because we really want to do that, rather than feel like there was something in return. But your ego gets some sort of pleasure from it afterwards, from helping someone because they say to you, or Shawn, or Alex, you know, thank you so much for your help. It's, it's made me feel so much better, or it's helped me with blah, blah, blah, we feel this sort of I help someone, and then when we don't get it in return, we think, Oh, well, that person doesn't care about me or that person is taking me for granted. Do you find that as well.

Shaun

Sometimes I do find that one thing I've struggled with is when my friends positively affirming Allah are shown, I really appreciate that I've actually said to him, I don't like it, I don't need you to tell me that. You're thankful because I can see you're thankful. I don't actually need to hear it. But that's my trauma that come that's come out. I'm not used to positive words of affirmation. So now I've had to constantly affirm myself, I don't think it's such a bad thing that the ego gets a kick, I think it's that beautiful balance between goods. And you know, okay, and maybe bad on the other side. I think if you're doing things all the time, because you want to feel needed, that's a very different concept to, let's say, if I help you, and I'm like, Alex, Man, I'm really proud of what you've done, and you do something back for me, I think friendships or relationships, wherever relationship you have in life should be symbiotic. You shouldn't be given from an empty cup. And some people are sponges and leechers. And this is why I think you have to be very careful. So I think having a little bit of ego keeps you alive and gives you a sense of protection. But that's my opinion on it. Whereas I think in the past, I used to think, Oh, it's so bad that you'll get a little ego boost. But part of being human is having that balance. We can't operate. As as we've said, within black or white, we have to find that grey area. And if it works best for some people it does. If it doesn't, then they've got to figure out what works better for them.

Alex

Yeah, it's the human condition. I think it's just accepting that we do like praise or we do like Feeling of helping others and I think it's almost like this perfection mindset to a degree feeling like I'm perfect to this or I'm a perfect friends of that and actually just accepting your your flaws or accepting that you are a human being. There's no perfect sort of person out there.

Shaun

Absolutely. And I'm, I'm definitely not perfect, I've got a lot of flaws. And once upon a time ago, I used to strive to be perfect. I believe now I strive to be human. And to be human means to accept yourself flaws and or I've got so many different things I've got to learn every day, but I'm getting better. And I think in alignment with the book, atomic habits, you can get 1% better every day. And 1% better every day is better than absolutely nothing. So one of the biggest ways I've been able to heal in recovery from my traumas, and from OCD is I do a lot of gratitude journaling now. So whenever I catch myself ruminating or being anxious, I got to get to my journal, and I write, I let it out, I practice brain dumping regularly. And everyone knows that the neurons that wire together are the ones that fire together. So if you catch yourself being anxious, and you just sit down, you keep chewing it over chewing the card over and over in your head, you'll just keep an anxiety inside, let it out, say to yourself, brain, we're okay, we don't need to over evaluate this risk, we will always be okay. So that's something that's really up journaling and meditating. So meditating obviously increases the grey matter in your brain, which allows you to take on new ideas and allows you to find peace and to give you that distance between yourself and that negative voice in your head.

Alex

Christmas can be a difficult time for a lot of people, when we're thinking about the loved ones that are lost. And this was the case with Sean as well. I really feel for Shawn, because there's a missed opportunity that he had to really get to know his father got me thinking what are the lessons and the skills that men are missing when they don't have a father who's present in their lives. Thankfully, I've got two fathers in my life, my stepdad and my biological dad. But I know that there are a lot of people out there who don't have that same luxury. After speaking to Sean and knowing about the issues that some of my family members have had with OCD, I know it requires a lot of work to overcome. People have many different ways of dealing with OCD. I remember this particular family member telling me about how they dealt with OCD. And it involves just sitting with the discomfort and accepting it, which I think is really powerful. Because it's almost counterintuitive. We want to get rid of it. We want to push it away, but actually letting it in processing it and just being with it can really have amazing results. I found it interesting that Shawn chose a therapist who was from a completely different background to him, because he wanted an outside perspective. I think that's the same for me in my life, because I have a counsellor who's a Mexican woman from Mexico City, which of course is completely different to the way I see things, different gender, different nationality. And I think that having that outside perspective can teach you a lot about yourself that you didn't know before.