Getting to spend another day on the planet, to have my feet hit the ground

when I roll out of bed, to take that breath in the morning and open

my eyes. And I will say, over time, it's still

easy to forget the reality of what's

been done for us, any of us that have had the surgery,

that we get to spend this extra time, hopefully doing

something engaging with a greater degree of

appreciation, with a more grateful

nature. Hello. Boots Knighton here.

Welcome back to another episode of Open Heart

Surgery with Boots. Today is a

very special episode for me. I

am excited to bring you Jeff Holden

for our third installment of Hope for the Holidays.

But let me tell you a little bit about Jeff. So

Jeff and I have met through a Facebook

group for myocardial bridging patients,

and Jeff was the very first

interview I did for this podcast.

Bless this man. Up, down, left, and right for

putting up with me in my first ever

interview. And I'm like, my face is hurting because I'm

smiling so big. Because, first of all, Jeff, you said

yes to this, like, person who had never podcasted a day

in Her Light. You own your own studio, and we've

become friends. Like, I'm always so excited

just to, like, talk to you. You were so generous with

your time then, and you're generous with your time now.

And the other thing I absolutely love about you is how you're just like, I

am a Chicago native. I have never met anyone from

Chicago who was so proud to be from Chicago,

and I have got to go visit that city just because you are so proud

of it. So, of course, you live in California now,

and you were absolutely thriving and kicking butt

at making myocardial bridging

more well known, more talked about in the field

of cardiology. There's so much for us to unpack with

your very positive update for Hope for the Holidays. But

mostly, thank you for being my fellow heart buddy. Well, first of all,

Boots, the. The first episode was a blast to do because it's fun to see

somebody else get into podcasting and have a passion for it and have a

passion for what the mission of the podcast is as

well. So congratulations on your program and all

that you're doing for people with open heart surgery, because I think they really do

appreciate it. There's so much misinformation out there and disinformation

and confusion when we get into, you know, any of these things concerning our

hearts. So congratulations there. And, yes, it is a pleasure to

say you are a friend. We've met at some of the Other podcast

meetups. And it's so wonderful to be able

to actually see and touch and get in the environment

of somebody when you only have a virtual experience

for the introduction. So congratulations on all of that.

Thank you. Thank you. Let me give you a high level view of

how we connected. So obviously we're both

myocardial bridge patients. We've both had our surgery. We

met on the Facebook group, and in my case, a little bit different. I'm a

little bit after you. I'm about two and a half years, a little more than

two and a half years out from my surgery. Similar situation. We go through the

misdiagnosis, the challenges of getting diagnosed. I'm a little bit

older. My whole situation happened a little bit faster. I had that

heart attack that caused all these uncertainties of what was going on

and how it could have happened when I was in great shape at the time.

And it eventually led me to Stanford, where I actually had the privilege

of meeting Dr. Trimmel. I didn't meet Dr. Schnicker at first. I

met her after my surgery because I came in the back door through the emergency

room and met with Dr. Boyd. Boyd performed my surgery

a little bit different than most in that I also had a bypass, a

Lima bypass. So I've got a myocardial bridge on

roofing as well as the Lima bypass. And as a

result of that, there was an epiphany for me in the

process of the surgery, post surgery recovery,

where I had quite the dream. And I

will say the dream was a life changing dream

because even to this day, it's still as vivid as it was the

day that I had it, the day that I woke up after experiencing it and

sharing it with my wife and just a tearful reunion when she came in the

room. But it made me realize that a lot of different things

that maybe I'd just been thinking about and they all came out and manifested themselves

through this dream after the surgery. Maybe it was the drugs, maybe it was lack

of sleep, I don't know. But whatever it is, I am so grateful for

it. And you've heard me say many times on our program that

these things don't happen to us, they happen for us. And as long as

we keep the perspective of the fact that these

things, almost everything happens for us. So, you know, we

look at it and if we try to find the reasons and the positivity out

of it, how we're going to cope, what we're going to do, what the adjustments

are as a result of the situation, Whatever that

situation be, in this case, for us, it was the myocardial bridge. For others, it's

open heart surgery, it's bypass, it's all sorts of heart

conditions that can be remedied through surgery.

That there's a gratefulness that comes out of it.

And certainly in my case, you know, that gratitude at 65

years old, having lived a life and a career and a variety

of experiences really took a turn

to where there was an absolute necessity to do a better job of giving

back and making sure that the people who have this condition

have a better understanding of it. And as I was exiting the hospital on

my release, my discharge day, Dr. Boyd came in. It

was a Saturday. And I remember looking at him and saying, hey, I need you

to do me a favor. I do podcasts for a living. I tell stories. I

help people tell stories. I'm a communicator. I connect people.

If this didn't happen this way

to me, somebody who does podcasts and communicates and shares

information, what else am I meant to do? I mean,

that's about as clear an indication, at least in my mind, that this

program is a necessity in the fabric of my life and my profession,

what I'm going to do going forward. And I said, I need, Dr. Boyd, I

need for you to be one of my first guests because

you performed the surgery that so many people are uncertain about.

They. They call it controversial, yet so many of us are

benefited as a result of the surgery. And he said, absolutely. So

as I was walking out of that room, I knew right away, this is going

to be, you know, one of the things that we do. And again, as a

result of the dream, which is a result of the surgery, which is a result

of the condition, we do an incredible amount of

programming for nonprofit organizations. And

the nonprofit podcast network is another one of our

vertical productions that we do from the studio. All born out

of that dream. And that dream was, it was an

epiphany to say, you need to do some things differently, and you need to really

get your arms around what you do. And, you know, to say, I'm a

grateful patient is really an under way, an

underestimate of just the experience of

getting to spend another day on the planet. To have, you know, my feet hit

the ground when I roll out of bed, to take that breath in the morning

and open my eyes, and I will say, you know, over time, it's

still easy to forget the reality of what's

been done for us. Any of us that have had the surgery

that, you know, we get to spend this extra time, hopefully doing

something engaging with a greater degree of

appreciation, with a more grateful

nature. And because we're looking at a month of

gratitude, November. I appreciate what you're doing and

the ability to say thank you and to

recognize the people who have made our lives better as a

result on any given day and to be able to share that with

somebody, you know, whether it's, you know, a hello or hi, how you

doing? With sincerity, you know, not just the, you know, the flippant,

everything's good. Because we know that gratitude

expressed with sincerity is a visceral reaction.

It changes the. It literally changes the synapsis in the

brain as a positive. And they do

establish a memory. So the more you're grateful, the more you

express the gratitude, the more likely you will continue to express it because the

brain says, hey, this is a good thing. Let's keep doing it. And we had

the good fortune of having a gratitude

psychologist on the program last year right around the holiday.

And we'll repurpose it again this year. Dr. Peggy

Delong. And who would think there'd be a gratitude

psychologist out there? But that is what she specializes in, right? I

want her job. Right. That's

cool. It really is. And she does a lot of public speaking,

and it's obviously all on the nature of gratitude. Ironically, she

had a heart condition scare. So she could relate

to some degree to what we go through with our

situation. Although she didn't need surgery, it was easily remedied.

But I recall and I wear to this day. I don't know if

you can see this. There's a black bracelet here and there's a little

silver bead on it. She sent it to me after the program. She does these

as her outlet therapy of sorts. She makes

bracelets. This is the gratitude bracelet. And the little silver bead

on there is a reminder to be grateful for something.

Every time you look at that bracelet. Every time I look at that bracelet and

I see that little piece of silver, it's like, hey, dope, don't. It's not that

bad a day. Everything's good. You're still here. Be grateful for something. What is

it? And it just reminds me to recognize,

you know, the people, the places, the passions that I get to perform

and things I get to do in my life that make

it wonderful, you know, every. Every single day.

So from, from that perspective, what a

wonderful thing to put a series together of people saying thank you

who have experienced, you know, a life threatening or a life challenging

situation to where they can step back. And I know people

say step back, smell the roses, do things differently. I certainly do.

You know, if I'm out doing my exercise, which in my case is

cycling, I would always blow by everything because I'm trying to just

pace a little bit better or perform a little bit better today. I'll

stop if I see something really cool. I'll take a picture of it, you know,

and post it on that particular ride or send it to somebody and say, hey,

check out what I saw on the trail today. Or, you know, this

experience. Whereas, God, that never would have happened

before. So many nuggets in there that I have question

marks about. And thank you for sharing all of that. My

biggest question that I continue to

ponder is I know I could not be

where I'm at now with my gratitude

and my love for life without my heart

surgery. Like I am just such an experiential

learner. I could not have learned the perspective I

have now through a book or a place of worship. Do

you think what you and I have been gifted is

attainable through teaching? I

mean, it just seems like we are

the lucky ones. Yeah, no,

I don't think you can teach it. I think you have to experience it.

We can profess it. I have a great deal of faith. I certainly

do believe in a higher power. And I thank God every night

and often during the day that I get to do what I get to do

as a result of what could have been really either debilitating

or death. I don't think it's something

we can share and express without the experience.

I think people can get close, they can understand

and comprehend, but the experience of it changes

that dynamic. It's not to say somebody else can't be grateful and express

gratitude by any means. Absolutely, yes you can.

But when there's that significant

threat of loss of significant

loss and possibly loss of life, life of loss of any ability to

do anything any longer, and loss to

the community you serve, loss to the people around you. And when you start to

really think that through, which I didn't prior to,

but post, I certainly do. And I'm more grateful

for them than ever that I'm still here to get to see them,

you know, whether it's, you know, our kids or our grandkids, you know, certainly

my spouse, the people I work with every

day is, is just that reminder when you do see them

that you've been given this gift, don't

squander it and make the most of it. Do what you can with

it. In spite of all the other stuff that you're going to deal with, in

spite of all the other crap that's going to come up, because that's reality of

just living. But to recognize nothing

is as important as the ability to

live a life fulfilled, you know, a grateful life,

and one that you're giving back to somebody. To say

that there was a benefit of that relationship, that

association, even if it's just that contact with somebody

in a casual sense. Yeah, yeah. I've

been saying lately, I feel like the world needs heart surgery.

You know, we. We had the benefit of a meetup

and there were about 12 of us. 12 of us, which

I can't. Maybe the biggest gathering of anybody with

myocardial bridges together in one space. Not all

surgically unroofed, but certainly the two that were in the room that

weren't, were still very appreciative of where they were in

their journey. And that's significant because they

understood they are either moving down the path to recovery

and surgery, or they've gotten to a point in their

process where what they're doing is working.

And hopefully for them, it will continue.

You know, we know typically it deteriorates over

time. Yeah. But again, depending on the severity.

But that, that appreciation. And this was mostly couples, so they were

with their significant others or spouses. And it was really wonderful

to see the gratitude both ways, you know, from the

spouse to the patient, the patient to the spouse, knowing

everybody saying that there's no way I could do this without my significant

other. And that in itself is an

expression of gratitude. And you are doing

incredible things with your studio. You had mentioned the

nonprofit network. But then tell us about Imperfect

Heart Podcast. Yeah, Imperfect Heart Podcast,

available wherever you seek. Your podcast out is a

program that was specifically designed for people with myocardial bridges.

And what we do is we try to alternate the episodes.

Patient, possibly on a journey, still there. They're not

on roof. They haven't had their surgery yet. Or patients

who have had their surgery, could be six months, could be a year out, could

be five years out. As one of the longest term people that we've

interviewed, and it's the expression of all that

activity. What did it take? What were their conditions? What were the symptoms they

were experiencing? How did they get to where they got. Did they have insurance issues?

So it covers a gamut of their experience. Because the thing that we

can't stress enough, and I'm sure you see it with everybody you speak with, there

are no two alike. There are no two symptomatic.

Experiences that are alike, similar, but not the same. And there are no

two unroofing procedures that are like everybody's bridge is different. It's shorter,

it's longer, it's deeper, it's obfuscated by something.

So the nature of those stories, each one is

unique to that individual. And each of the surgeons does the

surgery a little bit differently. So we don't quite yet

have, nor maybe we never will, a specific

protocol that exactly do it this way. And I hope we get to

a point where we know that there is an absolute best practice. But this is

still new, and these unroofing procedures are still

very fresh in the surgical

world, having been done maybe 10, 12 years. I think Dr.

Boyd probably still is the leader in terms of the numbers he's done. And it's

only about 250 over the course of 12 years. So that's wild.

Take your surgeon who's probably done 5, 6, 8, 10, maybe,

you know, the robotic guys who have done the most, they've done maybe 30,

40, 50. You know, we're not talking about thousands. No,

you know, it's an aggregation of. And so the purpose of the program is

really to give people that spirit of hope, to know you're not

alone, that there are a lot of us out there who

are experiencing the same thing, and to learn about proper

procedure and diagnostics and what to look for, what to

expect, what to get your head around in

terms of what you're experiencing. And also, our

objective is to find a doctor in each state that is

performing the surgery. Now, we have some states where we have multiples, others

where we have none, but we're working toward

that goal of one in each state so that whomever is in wherever they are

in the United States, we've got a place for you to go. We've got a

gentleman that just finished his surgery about three weeks ago. To the best of

our knowledge, the place he had to go. It was their first

unroofing procedure, and he used all the tools from

the podcast and the Facebook group to share with them. He's an

engineer, so he was very specific in terms of what needs to be done. And

they said, we think we can do this. They obviously do surgeries, and they do

bypass surgeries, and they do aortic surgeries. And our surgery isn't the

most complex. It's just novel, and

so far, so good. Incredible. Look at all the good work you're

doing. We have a surgeon in Sedona. We've got some really

Cool episodes coming up from, you know, people that have traveled abroad.

And we have a gentleman that he's from Perth, Australia,

and he had his surgery done in all places

Pakistan, because he had no money and he needed to go someplace.

And there was a doctor in Pakistan that said, we can do it. And

so he went there and got it done. And he's in great

shape right now. So amazing. I mean, I just have to

clap that. And this is the beauty of podcasting,

because we get to hear about all this and

our media isn't necessarily covering all that. And

this is the good news. This is. This is the good in the

world. This is the miracles in the world. And this is

the beauty of living in the year 2024,

going into 2025, when we can find each other

across oceans and help each other. You know, I have to

share. We just. One of the women who were at the

meetup has a daughter who's a nurse who is a

contributing editor to a digital

magazine called Next Avenue, that's a PBS

production, Public Broadcasting System production. And because of her

mom's condition, she wanted to do an article on it, and they said yes,

and it just got published. And they mentioned

the podcast in there because it's a great resource.

So I'm excited to say that people are starting to

recognize the value of the communication of

this often dismissed condition, you know, often

misdiagnosed. And there is a big clinical

trial being done, as you're aware, out of Yale. Dr.

Sameet Shah is performing that clinical trial with 500

cohorts, and he's got the majority now of

the major clinics, Stanford, Cleveland Clinic,

Mayo, UPMC in Pennsylvania,

Houston. And they're all involved on this in

attempting to set protocol for proper diagnosis

not only of myocardial bridges, but any of the conditions that present with

no apparent occlusion, no blockage.

And he's, he's getting there, you know, so that's a step in the right direction

if we can get to where people are saying, oh, yeah, this is a condition.

We need to address this. How do we properly diagnose?

Great. And they're using the Stanford protocol for testing, which is the

provocative test that is definitive. And then of course,

CT angiograms for anybody that has this condition is the noninvasive

test that is the gold standard without having to go into a

catheterization. So we're making progress. It's all too

slow. I firmly believe people are dying from the condition,

and it presents itself as just a coronary blockage. He Died, the

widowmaker was blocked. She died, the widowmaker was blocked. But I think if they

were to do autopsies on each of these people, that they would

find that probably what it is in the population. One in four of

them had a myocardial bridge. And okay, say I'm

wrong. Call it 10%. There's 700,000 people a year that die

from, you know, heart disease. That's 70,000 people.

And let's say I'm wrong there and it's, it's 1%. That's

7,000 people. So what can we do to

improve that proper diagnostic and make the

medical community more aware to look for this condition when somebody

presents with something that doesn't make sense? Yeah. I mean,

again, we're the lucky ones. Over and over. I mean,

I'm just awestruck at. Even though

the road has been really hard at times, incredibly

hard, I'm still awestruck at how

fortunate I feel on a daily basis. And I know you do too.

Yeah. And I'm one of the blessed few who post

surgery. Nothing. I've been fine. And that's what I wanted to

ask you about is like, how, how did, how are you thriving?

What is the secret sauce? I think back to

the earlier part of the conversation. Everybody's unique. You know, I went into it

in good shape, so that's a plus. But it's, it's

a chemistry issue, it's an environmental issue, it's a mental

issue. I think it's just all of these things combined, we just don't

know. And everybody's going to have a different journey through the process.

Some people are a hundred percent. We've probably got 50,

60% of the people that we've interviewed are 100% back. Everything's fine.

Some have some symptoms and, but, but nothing

anywhere near what they had. And others, a

very small percentage, have some other issues that

have presented themselves, but they would have been pre existing, just

unknown. So they're dealing with stuff now that they didn't realize that they had. And

they have to get through that process in the next part of their, their unique

medical journey to finish us off here. What is something

that you just wish you could yell from the mountaintop

to heart patients that will come after you because there will

be folks that come after you and I. Right. That's why we both host our

podcast. So what's that one burning piece of like,

advice that you just need everyone, every heart patient to

know? I'm going to expand that to the population at

large because there's this big

thing. It's called denial. And when we

experience something, and it's men and women,

I don't think it's impacted any greater on either side, because women will do it

to protect because they have other stuff to do, and they want to continue to,

you know, serve their family and do what they need to do, because in many

cases, they're relied upon for that. So they'll suffer this

chest pain and they'll recognize, oh, something's not right, it's angina,

it hurts, but it goes away. Or, you know, I'm short of breath,

but I just got to get this stuff done. Guys are, you know,

macho. Stuff can't be wrong. I'm not going to go to the doctor. All that

stuff is important. If you experience chest pain and shortness

of breath, there's something wrong. And I don't

recall your story in terms of, oh, yes, I do now. It just came to

me. We all do it. You were climbing mountaintops and

total exhaustion and going, no, I'll be fine. I'll just suck it up at the

top. When I. I don't know what's wrong with me, but it's fine. And your

husband's going, no, no, this is something should be easy for you to do.

Same here. I mean, I went on five more rides when I was experiencing

incredible chest pain that I couldn't have been a heart attack because

I was in good shape. Couldn't have been my heart, you should say it manifested

itself in a heart attack, but it's denial.

So I say it to the population at large because the more of us

that go into the medical community with the condition,

the more they'll recognize that. That many more people are symptomatic.

And if these people keep. If we as the people keep coming in and saying

something's wrong and they can't find it, something's wrong and they can't find it, and

they recognize, oh, this person has a myocardial bridge. I

need. This person has a myocardial bridge. This person, they're going to say, oh, these

things are symptomatic and they are

relatively prolific. And, oh, my gosh, if we start treating

these, how much better off we'll be. But when they

say 1% of the population is

symptomatic, meaning 25% of us have them, but only 1% is

symptomatic, I say, BS man. That's not true. You're

only hearing from 1%. We're the 1% that are coming to

you and saying, we have a problem, we need to get it addressed and or

you're dismissing the rest of them as anxiety and

stress and out of shape, right?

Women especially. Yes. Yep, yep. Women especially.

It's mind boggling. Jeff, I could talk

to you for the rest of the day. It's just so good to see

you and thank you for all the light you bring to my

life to other heart patients through your

podcast studio. And I will make sure to put in the

show notes how to find your podcast, how to find you.

You are doing so many important things for

the heart community and I could not be more grateful.

Well, Boots, thank you. Just the opportunity to share this conversation

with you on your podcast itself is a huge deal and

it's an expression of opportunity. And let me

say, I am grateful for you, for the ability

to do this and get it out to your audience as well. Thank you.

Well, you've heard it here folks. Thanks to Jeff Holden and

thank you for being part of this podcast.

Do let me know how you're doing. I always love hearing from

listeners. You can get in touch with me in the

DMS on Instagram. I definitely respond there.

You can send me an email bootsheartchamber

podcast.com I just

absolutely adore all my listeners and I am here for you

and I will not let you ever feel alone. You

do not have to walk this journey alone. So be

sure to join the community. Go to Patreon, follow me on

Instagram, you can find me on LinkedIn. And remember that I love

you, your heart is your best friend and you matter

in this world. So you deserve to be the CEO of your

health and keep advocating for being the

best person you can be in this world. Come back next

week for our last episode of Hope for the Holidays.