[00:00:00] Dr. Dylan Tarrant: And I think, I think that's my biggest goal as a chiropractor and a future dance movement therapist is how do I get someone to believe in themself? How do I create a safe space for patients to feel brave?

[00:00:16] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Welcome to the aim and practice podcast, where we talk to practitioners of all sorts, authors and thought leaders in the integrative medicine space I'm your host, Jess Reynolds, and today I am chatting with Dr.

Dylan Terrant, a chiropractor and dance movement therapy student whose work brings together chiropractic care and emotional movement healing to help patients reconnect with their bodies in a holistic and transformational way. So in today's episode, you will learn how to incorporate body mind techniques that address the emotional side of physical pain.

Practical ways to reframe pain and movement limitations as tools for patient empowerment and why creating a safe, patient centered space can be pivotal for both therapist and client. Now, Dr. Dillon [00:01:00] combines his expertise in chiropractic care with dance movement therapy, guiding patients not only towards physical recovery, but also to deeper self awareness and personal growth.

So now let's dive into our conversation with Dr. Dillon.

Today's episode is sponsored by Jane, a clinic management software and EMR that helps you handle your clinic's daily admin tasks so you can free up evenings and weekends. Now the Jane team understands how precious your time is and recognizes that charting can often be the most time consuming admin task for many practitioners.

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[00:02:11] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Dr. Dillon, welcome.

And thanks. This will be a really fun chat today. You, you reached out to me because of a previous conversation I had with Marie Claire about dance movement therapy. And one of the things that you mentioned is you're a practicing chiropractor and also you, currently incorporate dance movement therapy, so you've got this combination of chiropractic and dance movement therapy. And I am super excited to dig into this and learn about how you've married these two worlds or play with them both. So, welcome. It's great having you.

[00:02:41] Dr. Dylan Tarrant: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. And I, yeah, I realized I didn't clarify the dance movement therapy part as much. So I am a doctor of chiropractic but I also went back to school right after. So I'm currently in my last year in dance movement therapy school in Brooklyn at pride Institute.

[00:02:57] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Now, maybe we should start with this [00:03:00] because I've had one episode about dance movement therapy and funnily enough, I've had probably, I think dance movement therapists are probably like, Third, maybe fourth, as far as the type of practitioner I've interviewed, which is strange because nevertheless, let's talk a little bit about what dance movement therapy is and just explain it for, for practitioners out there who are like, what, what are we talking about here?

[00:03:21] Dr. Dylan Tarrant: Yeah. My whole thing about dance movement therapy may be a little bit different than other people. Everyone has their own spiel. For me, dance movement therapy is kind of unlocking some of these emotions in the body, in the felt sense. And sometimes the things that we can't explain through words, as I'm using my hands right now, is how we can express certain things, or certain things get trapped.

Which, a thing that I got into dance movement therapy is, This biopsychosocial model of health care and sometimes you'll get that patient where it's why are they still at a two or three pain [00:04:00] and For we're dancing with therapy comes in for me is what what else is going on? What are the things that are not being said?

that Present itself in the body. And so I think for me dance movement therapy is how do we use movement as a form of communication? How do we? Express come up with these ideas through movement A lot of times dance movement therapy for me is kind of how what am I feeling in this present moment? Am I in my head?

Or, can I really be present? Am I noticing my breath? How can I reconnect to my body? Because it's not just the top down, but bottom up as well. How can we connect the two?

[00:04:45] Dr. Jess Reynolds: That's awesome. I love it. I love it. And I saw Dr. Chinese medicine. That's sort of my, my world, hey, and we're all about mind body soul medicine. And one of the things that, that I found so fascinating is when I went through school is my first endeavor into the world of [00:05:00] medicine. And we learned somato psychic.

That's how we learn that word. Not, not, not Top down, but we genuinely learned bottom up first, and then it wasn't until years later when I'm like, wait, wait a second. The rest of the world sees it the other direction. So it's so cool that that you're sort of taking both of these approaches. Right?

And one of the things that that I would like to explore a little bit is, is this idea of. Well, there's a number of different directions, but what's most curious to me right now is, so you're a chiropractor and you're going to be performing dad's boom with therapy. Did you have to, like, go back and get a degree in psychology or something like that?

Or how did you end up getting into that part?

[00:05:40] Dr. Dylan Tarrant: So for that, I actually made a big change in my life after graduating chiropractic school. So I graduated back in 2020 to Southern California University of Health Sciences in Southern California. Towards my last year, I was very much seeing patients in my last internship, and [00:06:00] I actually got to spend an hour with my patients.

So that's also a little bit non traditional for chiropractic. I spent a whole hour with my patients. I didn't adjust to everybody. I actually got to do a lot of rehab, worked with a lot of different sports professionals, and really focused on rehab soft tissue. And then towards the end, I kind of like just, I saw this person that was two out of three pain and they were there for a month and I'm doing the soft tissue, I'm clearing the swelling chain, and I just asked a question.

I just said, what else is going on? And as soon as I asked that question, this patient just opens up, starts crying on my table, and just talks to me about their life and what's going on outside of sports outside of school and or even just transition from junior college to an actual college and how things shifted and after I talked to them about that and they cried on my table [00:07:00] Two sessions later, their pain was gone and we got to fully focus on rehab movement and after two more weeks after that, they were discharged.

And then from there, I actually saw this other chiropractor. Sorry, I might be like bouncing all over the place and also let me know if I need to talk slower. There is this neuro emotional technique like, so somatic, so like, basically they push down on your arm, certain body parts can trap certain emotions, and I went to this guy, and he actually was like, He pushed on my arm because I was going for some of my own health stuff and he was like, ooh, I was like, ooh What do you mean?

Ooh, he's like has anyone ever told you you're an empath? I was like, please don't tell me that I I'm a Pisces. I'm super emotional and He's like no like you just have to learn how to sip to understand And then not carry it with you for the rest of the day. And after that moment, I started seeing more [00:08:00] patients.

And I was just like, how are we doing? Or not even asking anything, just being open. And five more patients after that first one I discussed, cried on my table. And it kind of hit me, hit it on the nose about this biopsychosocial model of healthcare. And then I started listening to Dr. Zoffness about talks about like, Pain is in the brain.

And kind of how sometimes it's not just a physical, especially with chronic pain after three months, it's not so much the physical part, but there's this emotional component that can be part of it. So I was just like, do I go back to school? Do I not go back to school? And I just went, I kept going back and forth, and then I made this big move to New York, long Island out of that.

And, opened up my own practice and things were kind of slow. And so I was like, let me just apply to school because it was still that whole biopsychosocial model of health care was heavy on my heart. And I was like, let me just apply, [00:09:00] see what happens and set up the interview. Had a great, hour and a half conversation with one of my professors now and was offered a scholarship and I was like, okay, I'm going to do this.

And especially since I'm started to build a practice and I live in a new space, I was like, this is also a great part for me to practice that social part of the biopsychosocial model of healthcare. Cause I know I was kind of sad for moving away from California. So it was also a way for me to kind of practice what I preach and be like, yeah.

Maybe this is a great place to meet other people, other, other people that are going to be in the same field. And so, yeah, I went back to school in 2023. So I went from my doctorate program right into this master's program. So I'm a professional student at this point in my life.

[00:09:48] Dr. Jess Reynolds: That's great. That's awesome. I like it. Now how do you imagine. Incorporating these two, right? So I just, I just think about myself when, when I go to a [00:10:00] chiropractor and of course I'm, I'm in Canada and, and I'm assuming the model is not that much different than it is in the States, right? You go to the chiropractor.

You're like, Hey, I got a neck. I got a back. I got a hip, blah, blah, blah, blah. Mind you, I went to this one chiro and it was like an hour long. Cried on the table and everything, but 99 percent of the time you go to a Cairo and people are coming to see Cairo practice because it's like I have this physical problem with a joint or a region of my body.

I'll fix it. You get the 15 minutes on the table and off you go. So I'm really curious about how, how you intend to, or how you're starting to incorporate these 2. Seemingly wildly different modalities and how do your, your current patients, how are they handling this transition? Or are they what's going on with that?

[00:10:44] Dr. Dylan Tarrant: Yeah, like I think when everyone thinks of a chiropractor, they think of the videos they see on TikTok or on Instagram. And then they're just, they want the crack. So everyone's addicted to the crack and snap, [00:11:00] crackle, pop. And so that's part of our tool belt that we do. And so that's why, sorry, I actually completely forgot what the question was.

[00:11:09] Dr. Jess Reynolds: No worries at

[00:11:10] Dr. Dylan Tarrant: As I was talking about

[00:11:11] Dr. Jess Reynolds: It's, it's the idea of like these, these 2. Very different modalities and people coming to a chiropractor and it's like, Hey, just, just do the thing. Just crack, just crack the joint. And now you've got this other modality of dance movement therapy, which from my experience of it, it's like, it's, it's almost as opposite as you can get from what is the standard model of chiropractic, right?

So I'm just imagining people coming into a chiropractor and getting something different than the regular old snap crackle pop. So how's that transition working for you?

[00:11:44] Dr. Dylan Tarrant: Thank you. That was definitely needed. Cause I kind of went on this tangent. Yeah, I think. The education for chiropractic has definitely evolved in the past couple of years. Especially SCU where I went they're very evidence based. So it's kind of [00:12:00] like we were incorporating all these different techniques or really focusing on soft tissue and rehab.

And yeah, you're right. A lot of people think of like the adjustment, the pop, and how am I going to blend these two things? As like I said, in my internship, I kind of modeled my practice now from my internship, where I want to spend the time with my patients. A lot of times, patients, any, in any practice sometimes, can kind of feel pushed to the side or disregarded.

They're in the office for 10 minutes, 15 minutes, and then they're off to the next thing. And that doesn't leave space for, you know, or for people to speak about their ailments. It's kind of like just checking a list. And, you know, I tried working for someone and I love the people, I love the practice, but it was, it gave me so much anxiety that I just had to, okay, what's next?

What's next on the checkbox? And how I want to incorporate the two is kind of how I use [00:13:00] language with my work. my patients. How do I speak about pain? How do I speak about ability rather than disability? And what are they capable of? So I even think just the conversation about how I use my words. How do I, I think something that is going to be my mantra going forward is how do I create a safe space for patients to feel brave.

And so that I'm just thinking about, even when we're doing MRT, like you're, you pin the muscle and then you move it and you kind of do the action of the muscle. So you put it in the contracted position and then you stretch it. And I just started thinking about, authentic movement. And even just with MRT, if I'm pinning a muscle and yes, this is the action, but what are the movements?

Because it's also I always think about muscle work as a muscle is working together like a group project. And so if I'm doing this action, I'm using [00:14:00] a whole bunch of other muscles as well as stabilizers. And so I think of it as like soft tissue is like, let me help this. Wake this up a little bit. And so if I use the dance, thinking of like a dance movement therapy lens is if this is the action of that muscle, but they're having pain or certain thoughts or, are depressed that they can't do this certain motion, then how can I help facilitate that?

What, where can I feel the muscles of where the tension is or where there is kind of contracture of the muscle so that I can help them be brave enough to do that movement again? So I'm kind of, I think it's just circling around the question is just, how do I use How do I use my words? How do I use authentic movement of okay, I'm going to pin this muscle.

This is the action of the muscle, but this is the movement and the nuance of that movement that you want to do again. And how do I make you feel brave enough or [00:15:00] safe enough to be brave to do that movement again? So just kind of changing the narrative.

[00:15:05] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Like that one. What I really appreciate. And the more I learn about dance movement therapy, the more I appreciate it. My, my general background as far as I suppose the Western lens of what we're talking about is somatic experiencing. So I'm pretty, pretty well versed in that world.

And one of the things that I, I appreciate about what you're describing as well as that system, but the, the combination of them is how. I don't know. I don't want to be overly bold here. I don't want to be overly bold and say this, but I'm going to be overly bold and say the majority of the time. Yeah, the majority of the time when you get people coming in with chronic issues, it's not the tissue.

Yeah, there might be fascial stuff and certainly there's some mechanical stuff. I'm definitely not discounting that because we know that's the case. But like you said at the very beginning, it's like, well, what's happening once, once we've hit session 567 and it's stubborn and you know, yeah. [00:16:00] You've checked all the boxes.

You've done all the techniques. The tissues are technically working fine. And how you're describing to really give people courage, training their nervous system through the language that you're using to, to start to move again. I think that's really beautiful. And my curiosity with that is, What's been your experience with the individuals, you know, like forget about the condition, but the individuals when, when something like it gets unlocked, you know, when, when you start talking to them in this way, how do they respond, the individuals, the patients?

[00:16:33] Dr. Dylan Tarrant: Yeah, and I think that question really just made me think about seeing these patients as people. I think it's so easy to magnify. the illness, magnify the injury. But when you see this person as a whole, like their shoulder is not just, I don't know why I'm talking about the shoulder a lot today, but it's not just an injured, a person with an injured shoulder, that injured shoulder prevents them from playing with their child, [00:17:00] playing golf.

And when you take those things away, that can take away some part of joy, some part of their identity. And I kind of think about this one patient, They came to me and I'm working on them and somehow just, and I think that's the beautiful part about working soft tissue as well is you have to create this relationship, one for them to feel brave because they have autonomy over their body to like go through, because the muscle work is not always the most comfortable to, to allow you to do that.

It's kind of a lot of trust. And so how do you build that trust through conversation? And sometimes that conversation goes back to like, Oh yeah, I remember when I had this. back pain when I was in a car accident. I was like, Oh, okay. We didn't talk about that at the when you first got here, but tell me more about that.

And then somehow it just goes like, Oh yeah, I remember hearing my grandma's voice to push the brakes because their grandma passed away, but they heard their grandma's [00:18:00] voice to push the brakes. And so it almost brought this like, this other aspect. I'm like, Oh, that must, that must have been tough. How can you tell me about that?

And then it just allows them to start talking about that. And as they talk about it, sometimes I could feel that muscle just go from like this to like this. So it's allowing change in that muscle. And then I'm like, okay, let's, let's move. How do you want to move? What feels, what feels good to you to move and go into a little bit of movement.

And then that's where I like the, the freedom of rehab is kind of like, okay, I don't have to just do a certain exercise, but Any movement can be therapeutic. So it's that movement felt good. Okay. And then kind of cue different muscles so they can get this mind body connection of like, Oh, that's what I'm engaging.

And I also think that's part of like bringing them back in their body is when we're engaging these muscles and exercise that they're like, Oh, I haven't felt that muscle in a while. So it's reconnecting them, their mind to their [00:19:00] body and giving them the tools. And the power within themself to heal, because I'm just a facilitator.

[00:19:11] Dr. Jess Reynolds: You were mentioning something in there and I, I couldn't help but notice the, the synchronicity between what you were describing and a big project I'm working on. I'm doing this this workshop at a acupuncture conference here in a couple of weeks, actually. And the, the task was given to me to say, you need to do a workshop on client compliance.

And I'm like, I'm not, I'm no expert in client compliance. Like that's not my thing. But what I am an expert in is I, I'm pretty well versed in understanding. Motivation and understanding habits. And as you were describing this, it's like one of the things that that has come up through this conversation is how by treating the person as a person, not treating them as a constellation of symptoms and issues, really talking to them and getting to know them.

And that one thing is, well, What's, what's the problem here? Is the problem the shoulder? No, the [00:20:00] problem is not the shoulder. The problem is they can't pick up their grandkids. The problem is they can't go golfing. That's the problem that we're dealing with, right? So by shifting this away from like, okay, the shoulder pain isn't the problem.

It's the obstacle. The problem is, right? So it's really interesting how, I mean, it's a big project. That's why I honed in on that. But your approach, which I'm really appreciating, is coming at it from this, looking at the real problem, which the very vast majority of the time isn't the pain. It's not the frozen shoulder or the bursitis.

That's not the problem. It's what that condition prevents them to do. So as you're working with your clients, do you have conversations like this? Do you ever do sort of a reframing conversation where. I mean, at the beginning, you said focusing on, on, I can't remember the exact words you said, but talking about focusing on ability instead of disability, I think.

Right. So how do you go through that reframing process as people are coming in and they're like, I have a sore neck and it [00:21:00] is the worst thing. And I'm in pain all the time. And life is miserable and my neck hurts. How do you take them from that to the ability conversation?

[00:21:07] Dr. Dylan Tarrant: Well, I talked to him about the way I do soft tissue and I talk about the swelling chain. So with like anatomy trains, it talks about these fascial connections within the muscles and sometimes when certain muscles aren't working correctly then another person, another muscle is having to work over time.

So we use to do this muscle work to kind of get that mind body connection back to that muscle to help, help with that group project. And then also do pre and post. So I'm really big on doing a full exam with my patients. So I do a full neuro exam. I take blood pressure, heart rate, I do all of that stuff.

And then I do, extensive regional exams. And so like, even just with either muscle testing, making sure I have a pre and post, and it kind of just shows them like, oh, wow, like I am strong because then if we're doing a muscle test, we work through the muscles, do some rehab. And then I retest those [00:22:00] muscles, All these negative tests or, or positive tests and then it doesn't bring pain.

So positive meaning I did a test, it caused pain or I did a test and the muscle was weak. And if we retest it and the muscle stronger, or there's an absence of pain, then you just see this kind of like, wow, I can do it. And I think, I think that's the biggest thing, my biggest goal as a chiropractor and a future dance movement therapist is, how do I get someone to believe in themself?

And I think that's where I'm, I don't think there's a certain like, goal. I do this every time and then they believe in themselves. So it's kind of like getting to know this person and how they work and operate and talking to them while we're doing the muscle work. And then seeing their affect after we do, we retest and see, like, are they, are they excited?

[00:23:00] Are they, mind blown that like there's a little bit more function. And then I talked to importance about movement and creating more movement and really emphasizing their goals and making sure that they remember like, yeah, like this muscle work was a little painful, but you want to get back to this. And I think we're a little bit closer to that and kind of give them the ability to be like, no, I can do this.

So how can I get someone to think, Whoa, I'm on my step towards my goal. And I think that's, I'm like making goals obtainable. For these patients.

[00:23:35] Dr. Jess Reynolds: One of the things I'm curious about too, is Again, I don't keep track of scope of practice of every different modality out there, but what I do understand for the most part within manual medicine there, there's a pretty firm line between manual medicine and counseling manual medicine, giving any type of psychological advice or anything like that.

Right. And I [00:24:00] think it's an important line because psychologists and psychiatrists, so they go to school for a long time for a specific reason, right? Yeah. It's an important line that we have that being said. What I've noticed, what it sounds like you've experienced as well, is the moment you start treating a person like a person instead of a condition that's walked through your door, that just.

That line starts to get blurred awfully quickly. People start to tell you a lot of things that, well, they might be better off telling their counselor or psychologist. And on the table, maybe they do say something, or you do get them to move in a certain way, and all of a sudden something really big comes up.

Maybe it does, I don't know, reignite a repressed memory or something like that. So in these situations in which you're keeping in mind this, this, like, can. I'm an asthma therapist. I'm a chiropractor, but this person on the table is experiencing a pretty significant psychological trauma replay. How do you manage that?

And again, because this [00:25:00] happens when you're treating a person like a person. How do you manage to, to navigate that world while still staying within scope?

[00:25:07] Dr. Dylan Tarrant: Yeah, I'm actually really happy that you brought that up, because this is something that I've always had to keep in mind, is that I am a Dance Movement Therapist student, I am not a counselor, so I can't counsel. And I think what I keep in mind is the conversations that I have is just kind of just talking and just Something big comes up.

And so when something does come up, I'm like, do you, do you have a, and then I just ask, like, do you see someone for like, counseling or X, Y, Z? And then I'll refer out. So I'm very much patient centered and if something big comes up while we're just conversing that I'm like, maybe I'm going to refer you to this if they don't have somebody or I highly, and I'll write in the notes too.

I'm like, highly suggest that you go talk to your therapist about this. Cause it's a, this is a. This might be a big T, small T, big T, but I am not equipped, so I have to refer you out [00:26:00] to this. So, I think I'm using this authentic movement as a way to be like, work through the muscles, and then stuff comes up, just through conversation.

And when something does come up that I'm like, I, this is not my scope, I refer out.

[00:26:16] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Yeah, I like that. I like that. And I think that's super important to know, you know, know your limit and stick within it. One of the tools that I oftentimes use is when something big does come up and there's a story that follows is, I'll empathetically listen to the story certainly, but when there's a natural pause, do the appropriate referral and then always bring it back to the question that is within scope of practice, which is, you know, it sounds really hard.

Where do you feel that in your body?

[00:26:43] Dr. Dylan Tarrant: Yes.

[00:26:44] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Like what's going on in the body, like, oh yeah, like I get it, blah, blah, blah, traumatic car accident, whatever it might be. Yeah, well, if we, if we hold that memory and then move into the body, what's that like? And I think that's another kind of safeguard as well, [00:27:00] where just the body, that's

it.

[00:27:01] Dr. Dylan Tarrant: just the body. No, definitely. And I appreciate you said, saying that because it's very true. It's kind of like these things come up and you're like, okay, so where do you feel that in your body? Or we can still empathize. We can have kinesthetic empathy where we're kind of sitting with them, but not taking on the role.

of therapists or like mental health therapists at that moment. how can we be with, but not counsel? And I think that's so hard. Like you're saying these lines are are going like this a little bit and it's kind of, where does it, where does it end and where does it start? And I think that's something I'm really been thinking about too, as I approached my last year in dance movement therapy is keeping those two things separate.

When I have those two Dual license. But I think what's happening right now is The emphasis on language on how I, how I speak about pain. How, how do I [00:28:00] small talk with patients in order to have this release in the body? So, yeah, like I said, bringing it back to the body. Dance movement therapy, all about bringing it back to the body.

And how can I bring it back to the body? How can I get this person to relax a little bit? But yeah, with like being with someone for an hour, there's, how do I create conversation? To allow for that while being in the scope.

[00:28:25] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Now, this, this is probably a bit of a tangent, but I'm quite curious about it. An hour. Beautiful. Love it. Love it. Absolutely love it. I mean, that's, I, I prefer our treatments as an acupuncturist and similar to Cairo. It's like, sure, we could get away with 15 minutes, throw the needles in, whatever, right? made you made that choice and why have you stuck with it?

And again, how do you, how do you get patients on board with that? Cause so many are like Cairo, 15 minute in and out. So it's an interesting choice to, to do our appointments as a Cairo.

[00:28:54] Dr. Dylan Tarrant: Yeah I saw how it worked at my internship and I thoroughly loved [00:29:00] it. An hour appointment allows me to do a full history. I don't have to just check boxes, but if I want something explained a little bit more, I'll dive deep. It allows me to really write down every injury, every injury.

Sometimes I'll ask, Oh, you never had XYZ? And then they're like, Oh, this one time I did. So having that hour leave space for a more thorough history a more thorough exam. And then when treatment comes, it also allows more time for movement. So I'm very much, I, Love rehab exercises as a Cairo to get patients moving sooner so that they have autonomy so that it's, it's movement that's going to help them get better fully.

Or to the best of their ability, not my hands. Soft tissue for me is like, it's great for the first two weeks. I'm really hands on really trying to see what, how the muscles are feeling. And [00:30:00] then after that, it's kind of like we're moving. They come in, we have a full workout, I'm getting them to squat, we're loading them, we're doing just like bench pressing or whatever they need.

I'm getting them moving, getting them stronger. So if you get them stronger, then they're not going to need me which I want. I want to be able to spend that whole hour with you so that, you know, once your treatment plan is done, Go live your life. You don't have to come in five times a week for 15 minutes for the rest of your life.

And so I always say an adjustment is a great tool. I will adjust. I don't always adjust. So even though it's an hour appointment, kind of do a check in, what's going on, how's the rehab going, and then create moving. I work with a lot of dancers, so I kind of check out their technique a lot too within that hour, and then kind of do strength and conditioning.

Towards their dance technique and just motivating. I think that's where Dance Movement Therapy comes in too, is with the dance [00:31:00] training. I kind of, The way I use language with dance has changed. So a lot of times I'll notice dancers will, when they falling out of a turn, their releve, if they're not fully up on their toes, we'll kind of give up on a turn, but I just reframed the question.

So a lot of, a lot of times the answer to women therapy, kind of just reframing the question to get them to think about things differently and kind of they're like, Oh, I dropped my heel. I was like, you dropped your heel, but. Where's your upper body in alignment where it's supposed to be? They're like, yeah.

And then like, okay, then we'll figure it out. Like you have, you're able to spot and keep your upper body upright. You didn't fall to the ground. I think that's something to celebrate. And so kind of just reframing language and dance too. so

[00:31:44] Dr. Jess Reynolds: curious what studying dance movement therapy has done in your life. Like personally, I could imagine going through a program like that would be transformative. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm curious if it has been.

[00:31:56] Dr. Dylan Tarrant: It really has. So I'll, I'll go into it. I started doing dance movement [00:32:00] therapy for myself right after the pandemic in 2021. I saw a dance movement therapist. I did one on one sessions with her and this is also after the pandemic. I was 28 at the time and I finally came out to my family. And so there was this big shift and.

She really helped me be in my body and kind of go through some of the things that kind of I've held onto like either grief and stuff like that. So, but always brought it back to the body. Like, where do I feel that in the body? How do I want my body to feel? Where, where do you want, how do you want to move through this?

And it's not just emotionally how I want to move through this, but how do I physically move? How do I be present because a lot of the times, During that time, I was always outside of my body. I'm always thinking about 20 million things. You can probably hear it in the way I talk sometimes when I talk really fast, but it's like, how do I bring it back to the body?

How can I focus on [00:33:00] breath to slow down and be my body? And then within like, This past summer, there was a big change in myself being in the program as a second year and kind of, I call it like stepping into my power and being more confident, unapologetically myself, trying to find what being myself authentically is.

So I'm Filipino, Samoan, and Irish. I identify as a gay man. My pronouns are he and him. But I've also been looking for community. So going back to like the social aspect of the biopsychosocial and I found a community of other Samoans or Polynesians in New York city. And they invited me to the pride parade and I got to go and I got to also dress in traditional Polynesian dress and I was fully decked out.

I was, I felt super Polynesian. So these intersecting identities [00:34:00] kind of landed. At the same moment, and I fully felt myself, I fully felt my body, I felt my nervous system felt regulated. I felt at peace and joy that I've never felt before. And so I think dance movement therapy is really helping me really hold on to my different identities, but also be proud of those identities.

And also knowing that I don't always have to show all those identities all at once. So I kind of think of it as like dance movement, like this is me, For dance movement therapy, it's also like talking about this brave space, safe space. I'm showing this part of my hand, but sometimes I can show this part.

And so it's just knowing that even though it's a different aspect, it's still myself. So this is a personality of myself. This is a different part of my life. And. Although it's not seen at the moment over here, that's still part of who I am. So just how do I bring all these different [00:35:00] identities of self and really be with it, sit with it, and question, asking questions.

So not like questioning of, you know, Let me question this, but kind of asking myself questions of why is this bothering me? Why does this bring me peace? Or if I'm upset at someone, am I really upset at them? Or am I upset at this reminds me of something that happened in my past? And now that person that I'm upset at is actually someone from my past, but I'm seeing them as them.

And so at my internship now, I do a lot of logs where we talk about transference and counter transference of who I see the person as and who they see me as. And so while I'm at my internship, I write these logs and things that come up or happen, I always have to ask myself, is this me in this moment?

Is this something that [00:36:00] happened in my past. Like, what am I feeling at this moment? So, yeah, I think dance movement therapy has really shifted a lot of parts of my life. And like, like I said, even with like chiropractic, there's this been this big shift where I'm not practicing dance movement therapy.

I'm just kind of reframing the questions I want to ask. Like when I'm asking patients, not just about what they can't do anymore, but what can they do well still? And so what is that going to be like? How is that going to change rehab when I just reframe the conversation about what their body's going through?

And how can I, as a practitioner, not therapize them, but kind of be present and also aware that these other things are happening at the same time. That it's not just this physical pain in the body, but there's other things. There's, there's This whole person also has a social life and going through stuff emotionally sometimes.[00:37:00]

And how does that kind of shift how we are in rehab? Sorry. I know that was long winded.

[00:37:07] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Oh, that's a beautiful story. I'm really, really grateful you shared that. So thank you. That is a fantastic story. There were a few points in there that I found in resonance, particularly when you're speaking about authenticity. And this is something that I speak on often and teach about as regularly as I can, that in my opinion, not just as practitioners, but in life, but.

Within context, I genuinely believe as a practitioner, one of the absolute best things we can do for our own practice. Therefore, for our clinical outcomes is to be authentic to be as much you as you could be. Like you said, you know, not like all the different parts of you. I'm not showing up to to work in my pajamas or

anything like that.

But. But I'm being me. I'm treating clients in a way that feels like totally in alignment and authentic with me. And, and it sounds like as you've been going through this process of your own inner work with dance movement therapy, that you've had the confidence [00:38:00] to show up that way. And hopefully in doing so you're finding that your, your clinical outcomes are improving to some degree.

[00:38:07] Dr. Dylan Tarrant: Thank you. And one thing that really resonates with me is I'm also realizing even with dance room therapy is I won't be for everyone and that's okay. I'm not what they need. And so again, when it comes to patients or possible patients. It's kind of like, it's not about me. And then again, it brings it back to like, what does this person need in front of me?

Do they need an hour session with me? Or can I refer them back to their primary? Do I is there something going on there? Because with that full history, it's like, maybe I need to refer them back to their primary. Maybe I need to refer them out to their therapist. Maybe I need to refer them for imaging before I actually.

So she's constantly bringing it back to what is this person in front of me need? And it's not always going to be [00:39:00] me.

[00:39:02] Dr. Jess Reynolds: like that. And also loops back to the knowing your scope, knowing when to refer out and what's some. What's, what's the vision that you have? You know, like if you imagine your perfect practice, five, ten, however many years, years doesn't matter, but if you imagine all of the work that you're currently putting in and have put in has come to fruition, what does that look like?

That

[00:39:29] Dr. Dylan Tarrant: That's a good question. I do see myself still being this rehab Cairo where I see my patients for an hour. I see myself some days putting on my dance movement therapist hat. Seeing clients and I'm also a professional dancer. So I also see myself performing. I also see myself teaching choreographing.

Yeah, I, I think I am very much a person that loves many things and I'm kind of reframing this [00:40:00] idea of jack of all traits and really being like, no, I love to do this. I love to do this. And I know myself, if I do one thing for the rest of my life, I'm gonna be bored. So I think either, you know, wearing different hats on different days.

And also, how can I, how do I connect with people no matter which hat am I wearing? How can I get these people to believe in themselves? Whether it's a patient, a Dance Movement Therapist client a dancer, or just people that I'm around. How can I get them to, you know, Feel safe to be brave in the things that are being asked of them.

Because that's why I love dance. Cause I'm a mover. I was a dancer before I became a chiropractor. I choreographed a lot. I danced, I backed up dance a lot, taught a lot, judged dance competitions. And I think that's why I kind of went into [00:41:00] into what I'm doing now. I had a professor in undergrad who was all about, physical therapy athletic training.

And I also had a dance movement therapist as one of my professors as well for nonverbal communication. And I fell in love with both worlds. And I think I, I would love to use movement to help heal, whether that be through dance movement therapy or chiropractic and rehab. Yeah.

[00:41:27] Dr. Jess Reynolds: was beautiful. I love it. I love it. Now I got, I got one more question for you before we tie a lovely little bow on our conversation. It's the question I ask everyone. And As a practitioner, what do you think makes a practitioner successful?

[00:41:43] Dr. Dylan Tarrant: This is one thing I'm practicing now, is finding [00:42:00] your rest. Being able to recuperate also be a human first, and realize we also have different needs and parts of ourselves, that we're not just a practitioner, we also may be a husband, we may be A pickleball player that we have to leave space and time for other things in our life.

And in order to be able to fully show up for our patients, our clients, so we really have to truly show up for ourself and make sure that we are rested. nourished are moving ourselves because no matter what profession we are, we can take on a lot. And going back to what I said earlier is like, how can I sip to understand?

But also, how do I replenish myself so that I can continue doing this work? So yeah, I think rest is My kind of like my goal right now. How do I rest so that I can fully be [00:43:00] present?

[00:43:00] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Love it. Love it. And for many reasons. I look at the statistics of practitioners pretty much across the board and longevity rates are pretty, pretty abysmal regardless of the modality. And when you look into the reason why practitioners, again, regardless of the modality, why practitioners tap out is the most common cause is burnout.

And I suspect that it is because they're not following that little bit of advice that you just suggested is find your rest, right? That's beautiful.

[00:43:29] Dr. Dylan Tarrant: And it's hard to do cause I will say it took me a many, many years to figure out how to do that. And I'm barely scratching the surface of what do I like to do? How do I rest? Wait, can I take a day off? So yes, that's definitely a journey.

[00:43:43] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Yeah. It looks different for everybody. I can not do. Two day weekends, like it just, it's never worked for me ever. Like, no, I'll just, I'll, I'll work my butt off every day from like, I don't know, seven to three. And then go to the park for a couple of [00:44:00] hours. And rest for me has been building a schedule that I can do what I want when I want.

I can rest when my body needs it. Now, according to a predefined schedule, but some others, they really need that two full days of rest, right? So I appreciate that. It is different for everybody. And it's a process of, well, getting to know yourself.

[00:44:17] Dr. Dylan Tarrant: how do I, yeah, I like that. How do I get to know myself? I need to get to know myself. And how do I do that?

[00:44:24] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Dylan, this has been a fantastic conversation. I'm grateful for all the lovely little directions and pathways that we took. So before we wrap it up, do you have anything else that you would like to discuss? Anything you feel like we didn't cover anywhere you'd like to dig deeper into?

[00:44:38] Dr. Dylan Tarrant: No, I think that's, I think that's pretty much everything. Yeah, we, we touched on chiropractic, we touched on dance movement therapy, and I even threw a little bit of the dance background out there. I think one thing I will mention, because I didn't talk about my practice much now, but I do work with I'm not sure if you got to see my Instagram yet, but I work [00:45:00] with like 95 percent dancers on Long Island.

So I work with a lot of competitive dancers. I do a lot of just kind of education of how the hip moves or just how different joints work and strength and conditioning. And then also I think that's something in my future goal is how do I use language in that area to like, what I think that's something to look into is like sports psychology and how can I use that as well in order to, you know, help athletes live a better and healthier life.

Dancers live a better, healthier life because there's a lot of stress out there. And I think a lot of times we forget that they're not just dancers. They're also students. They're also, you know, they're, they're children of parents and X, Y, Z. So yeah, I think that was, that was it.

[00:45:48] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Well, I'll make sure to put all the links to to your socials and your clinic and everything in the show notes. So anybody who is in and around the Long Island area, you have a dancer, send them to Dr. Dylan and that's great.

[00:45:59] Dr. Dylan Tarrant: [00:46:00] Awesome. Thank you so much for everything.

[00:46:02] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Oh, my pleasure.

Well thank you so much for spending your time with us today. I know time is precious, and I am truly grateful that you have chosen to share yours with us. So before you go, I want to highlight three key insights from our conversation with Dr. Dylan that you can take with you. First is embracing a biopsychosocial model can really unlock new patient paths for healing, especially for our patients suffering with chronic pain.

Second, creating a safe space and using empowering language can help patients feel brave enough to explore movement and healing in new ways. And finally, integrating body mind practices like dance movement therapy can really deepen the therapeutic experience and promote lasting change. Now one of the things I really appreciated about this conversation is the idea of integrating multiple modalities.

I'm sure at this point in time you know I am a very big fan of bringing different types of modalities together, whether it's within yourself, Practicing two different modalities or in [00:47:00] a complimentary setting where we work collaboratively with other practitioners. Now, a very special thank you to Dr.

Dylan for sharing his unique insights and blending chiropractic care and dance movement therapy. And if this conversation resonated with you, be sure to subscribe as you never miss an opportunity to grow, learn, and build a more purpose driven practice. You can find Dr. Dylan on Instagram or through his Long Island Practice.

Links in the show description below. Your journey matters, and I'm honored to be part of it. Until next time, be well, my friends.​