Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsch.

Welcome to another episode of Metaview, recorded live at a currently flooded Academy of the Impossible, where spring and winter have existential crises simultaneously and have a huge conflict.

Kind of like Canada, United States.

But that's all right.

Mike's here to help us make sense of it all, to help us perhaps find joy, happiness, meaning peace in this chaotic world we find ourselves in.

The three pillars I've selected for today, Mike, are community, immigration, and North America.

As always, our spontaneous conversation may or may not touch upon these subjects and more, but we begin every episode with the news.

And of course, my sound effect didn't work because I had to update software and it's always a pain in the ass.

But Harriet's here to make everything okay and get a little treat.

I think Harriet just had her lunch, which means she ate it all, and she is a very good girl.

Today on Meta Views, we've got Trump War on law, Media, and academia.

I wrote this in a very kind of neutral tone, but this is a really fucking disturbing shit.

And the primary hook that I was using or the argument that I was focusing on was the Trump administration's intimidation of big law firms.

The United States is dominated by very large legal firms that, as part of their culture, have a lot of pro bono work.

The pro bono work that they do really attracts a lot of students, a lot of young people straight out of law school who are willing to work in the sausage factory that is these big law firms, precisely because they get to do good work.

They get to do the kind of bleeding heart social justice work and the pro bono stuff.

The Trump administration is really trying to target those firms to make sure that that pro bono work is not against the administration.

And there have been a number of people who have quantified just what kind of an impact that would be.

That that is essentially where you think of the opposition in America.

Not so much the Democratic Party, because they got their own TV show to appear on, but the young lawyers who still believe in a just society, who.

Who use the grueling positions they endure at big law firms to try to litigate for a greater democratic society.

And they're being told to shut the fuck up and keep their mouths shut and stay silent.

I digress.

As you know, Mike, the goal of this segment is to throw to our guest, and this is where you're a veteran, and I gotta warn you, my expectations grow with every episode.

It goes to the game show format, and this is radical American wackadoo number four.

So that's the cleanup hitter in baseball.

So what do you got for us today when it comes to news?

Oh, wow, that's awesome.

I was going to go.

Baseball.

Yeah, I was going to go into baseball and talk about lawyers in America and actually use a baseball analogy.

I'm going to save that for.

Perhaps it'll come up in community immigration or North America.

But for the news, I actually have a really interesting one that caught my eye.

I've always been obsessed with the fact that unlike most Americans and unlike most Westerners, I am extremely good at isolation.

I have tested this.

I've lived in studio apartments with 400 square feet space and stayed inside for more than a day with no problems.

You would think, especially as someone who smoked marijuana in those times, that that would make it harder, but I actually had no problems with that either.

I would say it makes it easier.

But please, I would think so too.

Yeah, well, I think we're kin in that department.

But at any rate, either way, I was shocked when I read this headline today and I had to read the whole article and it's a long article, so I'm going to very grossly summarize it, but basically a team of scientists is trapped in an isolated Antarctic base for 10 months and one of them just attacked and threatened the others.

So this goes back to the theory of can we go to Mars?

And why Japan is probably the only country that could ever go to Mars.

And it's because not only is it hard to be isolated and hard to be in a small space for a long amount of time, but to do that with another person is extremely hard.

Even 2001 A Space Odyssey gets into this.

The movie Alien, you know, sci fi.

But this is a real, almost similar situation because we've all.

I shouldn't say we've all.

If you have not seen the thing, stop this right now and go watch the Thing by John Carpenter.

It is one of the most incredible movies ever.

But it should all the premise you need to understand this article, which is that Antarctica, not only is it very hard to get through the Drake Passage and even get to Antarctica, but once you're there, you are at the mercy of storms.

And this can be as severe as what's happened here, which is these people don't.

They're not going to run out of food and they're not going to run out of energy and they're not going to run out of heat, but what they are running out of is time to get along.

And so one of them went crazy.

Apparently there's tons of great quotes in the article.

The email is how they found out.

So the team, someone snuck in and sent an email and they said a person was acting egregiously and deeply disturbing behavior, attempting physical and sexual assault as well as threatening to kill someone.

The behavior has become increasingly egregious and I'm experiencing significant difficulty in feeling secure in his presence.

The email read, it's imperative that immediate action is taken to ensure my safety and the safety of all employees.

But.

And the article goes on and on, and I don't want to bore you with the actual details, but I think that this is actually a really fascinating news article that we should spend more time thinking about, which is right now we talk about North America, we talk about the great divorce that is or is not happening within the confines of the United States.

And at the same time, we talk about the United States, you know, aggressive efforts to take countries like Greenland, rename the Gulf of Mexico and add Canada as the 51st state.

So I'm seeing parallels between all of this, which is like, can we.

And I'm actually pending an article on this, so no one better take my title.

But can we get along?

Maybe we can't, I don't know.

What do you think?

You hit it out of the park.

Way to go, clean up hitter.

I agree with you 100%.

I think this is a huge story and I think there's a lot of threads we can pull from it.

I want to start with your Mars, your space analogy.

I think you are correct that the only industrial culture that we're familiar with that could even come close to pulling off the mission would be Japan because of the way in which they have as a culture focused on collective well being and social harmony, and they have a culture that would allow that to happen.

I think any other nation, including China, where you and I, as the hired consultants, where we would advise them on success is they have to train for that loneliness.

They have to train for that social isolation.

And they need to create before they can even launch their mission, they need to create a culture that would allow for that success in acknowledging that their current culture would basically just drive them direct to failure, sooner rather than later.

This may be where to keep the analogy going.

Moon missions, you know, may provide that type of test ground.

Because what I find a little modifying or biased, dare we say about the Antarctic example, is one of the cognitive biases of the people in Antarctica is they're going home and they're going home at a certain date.

So they might be thinking, well, it's my daughter's birthday.

Fuck.

I'm not going to make it home for my daughter's birthday.

I'm going to be a dick to Mike and I'm going to take it out of Mike and pick on Mike.

And that to me seems very plausible in terms of the emotional dysfunction functions of the kind of societies we find ourselves in.

But I do think this is fascinating because I think whether it's climate catastrophe, whether it's pandemics, whether it's hot summers, we do need to have the ability to not just be with ourselves, but be with, shared a tight space with other people.

Prison is another thing that I think many of us are not prepared for, but that may be increasingly likely on our horizon.

So I think this is a brilliant lens into a deficit we have in our culture and in our society.

So I'm curious to throw it back to you to bring it back to my frame of the training program.

What are the key things that you would have these astronauts, these team of cosmonauts training so that their long term space mission would be successful given the social and cultural deficit that we're starting from?

Yeah, I've thought way too much about this and I've thought a lot about this.

And the most time I spent thinking about this was when I was trapped in a home with an angry wife who hated me, who I ended up divorcing with a child that I loved.

So the reason it was difficult is I couldn't leave because I loved one member and needed to stay to protect him, not from the mother, but like just in that paternal and maternal way.

Because believe it or not, there's a maternal side to my heart as well.

And, and then meanwhile, what can I do to get this person to stop hating me?

Even though I don't think I'm in control of how much someone does or doesn't hate me.

I learned nothing from it that would be constructive for the training.

But I have since then learned a lot which would be somehow this does apply to the.

I was raised non religious, but what I hear Jesus said all the time, which is turn the other cheek.

I think that's the probably only maxim that's going to work in this case.

But ironically, turn the other cheek would be what a lot of people could say to every single Meta Views article.

You know, hey, turn the other cheek.

And yeah, yeah, but I love, I love the dual meaning of turn the other cheek because I've seen interpretations of turn the other cheek by slapping the first cheek real fucking hard, that the cheek turns.

And to your point, everyone has a paternal and maternal side of their heart insofar as they had a mother and father, right?

They are inheriting love and affection almost culturally, as much as they might be biologically.

So I would argue everyone has a maternal heart and approaches it that way, but the same way that I would argue to something else you almost contradicted yourself on, but actually offered the insight indirectly that the more distance you have from that period of your life where you were living alone, the better you will understand it, the better you will be able to glean insights for what other people should or should not do in such a situation.

Because that's the whole point of critical distance, right?

The further we get away from something, the easier it is to understand it, to see it, to grasp it in terms of a larger meaning.

Before we segue to the WTF segment, I've been thinking about something a lot since our conversation last week, and I want to put this into the news section.

I'm really seeing a retreat of freedom of speech, a voluntary retreat of freedom of speech.

On the one hand, there are two groups who are actively exercising their freedom of speech, those who are violent proponents of the regime and those who are active opponents of the regime.

They are two sides who are yelling, who are shouting.

And I certainly put myself in the latter category.

But I am seeing a lot of people who are shutting the fuck up.

And Ralph Nader wrote a really fascinating piece which I put on my Blue sky profile, where he basically was like, where are you, Bush family?

Where are you, Clinton family?

Where are you, Obama?

Like he was just running off all the American elites who politically and morally should be making a stink right now and speaking out against what's happening because they have no repercussions.

There's nothing that can happen to them.

They have everything to gain, nothing to lose.

And Ralph Nader, who is criticized for lots of things but has always been a good critic, this was a good argument.

And it made me reflect on a larger level of how Canadians and Americans are going silent at a time when they should be speaking up in favor or against.

I'm not saying they gotta pick a side, that one side should talk and the other side shouldn't talk.

Quite the opposite.

I'm saying everyone's gotta put their fucking cards on the table.

Thank you very much.

Otherwise some mistakes are gonna be made.

And I think for the negotiation to take place, we all need to understand what's there.

And this is where I'll preview.

I don't know if we'll get to it cuz I am a devout believer in spontaneous conversation, but you provoked me with your debate idea.

So I'm suggesting we do the mini version for North America segment.

The audience doesn't know what we're talking about, so we'll have to see if we get there.

But let us now segue.

And before I do, give me a moment.

I want the.

So I need you to.

I'm not editing this out.

So can you entertain the crowd while I check my sound effects?

Yeah, I can.

And actually what I would like to say is when you said everyone should be able to put their cards on the table, I think, and this is really a hard part of being an American right now, I don't think a lot of Americans know what cards they're holding and know how to read the cards, if they even have them.

I think that the misinformation disinformation fiasco is so high right now, I was reading this is a parallel argument.

But if you asked me, do I believe in climate change?

I would say yes.

And then if you said, do you believe the average person who talks about climate change is truthful, honest and above board?

I would say no.

So it's very much like that to me.

Like, I don't trust anyone.

I trust you, Jesse.

You're the greatest reporter I've ever met.

But I have trouble trusting anyone right now.

And so it's hard to know who to trust, what to trust.

And I think Ralph Nader nailed it.

I can't wait to read that article.

And real quick, because you did ask me to pad I voted for Ralph Nader in 1999 or whatever.

Yeah, very cool.

So I just, yeah, there's no way that I would have been able to vote for Al Gore.

Like, no fucking way.

And for the record, I appreciated your sentiment, but I think most reporters would roll over in their grave if you were to call me a reporter, which does make me happy in that regard.

But let us talk about wtf I.

E.

The future.

You know, my view of the future has been kind of changing lately.

Not always for good, but changing is good.

I hate when my future feels rigid.

I love to feel different probabilities and opportunities arising.

With that said, no pressure.

What do you got for us today, Mike?

Yeah, the future is if you like sports, you're no longer gonna like sports.

The future is a betting obsessed, compulsive gambling nightmare.

And the reason I'm bringing this up is I took a trip to New Orleans, my absolute favorite city in the world, bar none.

It's not even close.

Great food, great entertainment, great people, great sites, great history, horrible history that's also great.

Lots of museums, truly intellectually and diverse people full of contrarians, which, of course, you and I both love.

And what saddened me, though, was I did go into the only casino there, and it's a legal casino where you're allowed to place bets on sports.

And that used to be my favorite part of traveling to New Orleans, is I would bet on one game for, like, a team I love.

And I.

I just could not believe how much sports gambling has changed in America.

I don't know if they legalize the apps and things in Canada.

I don't actually know that, but it's a nightmare.

And I just saw, like, my friends and I no longer wanted to watch sports.

Like, we no longer wanted to just tune out and watch sports because something has changed.

And instead people wanted to bet on sports, and then they didn't really want to watch sports, they just wanted to bet.

So, ironically, I started out by saying my favorite thing to do was to go and lay money on a game, but it's because it was.

It was rare, it was exclusive, and it was, like, difficult.

You had to go down, buy a ticket, and then you have to go back and return the ticket.

So I think the future is not only are we losing, like, real things we actually care about, but I do think it matters.

We're also losing pastimes.

Just baseball, like as we know it, basketball and anything.

Yeah, No, I agree.

The.

The culture of betting is decimating the culture of sports and turning it into a zombie corpse of what used to be a very inclusive, a very enjoyable culture.

Again, bravo.

That was excellent.

Allow me to expand and double down.

I'll preview the double down by saying I agree with you wholeheartedly about this vision of the future.

And where I will take it into dystopia is what you are seeing happen with sports is already happening with politics, and it will have an even more powerfully corrosive and toxic effect.

But before I go there, Michael Lewis, the rather prolific author, had a really fascinating podcast called against the Rules, which was his take on what betting has done to sports and what betting has done to America.

Highly recommend it, especially if you do listen to podcasts like I do on one and a half speed or double speed, and he really gets into how not only does it rob people of the joy, but the angle, the.

The gate, the game for all the big casinos is the parlay.

Right?

The more they can push people into the parlay, the more likely it is you're gonna lose, that it is just statistically impossible for you to win the parlay.

And further it, it really gets you away from the individual game because now you're focused on the combination and if the combination breaks, well, you don't care about the rest of the games.

And so it was just he interviews like professional gamblers, he interviews with like, you know, addiction researchers.

Like he really gets into the psychology of it all and it's so predatory and so effective that it really is mind blowing.

And this is where Canada is so vulnerable to America.

While the difference I think between Canada and America is there is less proportion private entities in the market, which is to say the provinces control a lot of the gambling.

And first nations, right, Indigenous communities also control some of the gambling.

But the MGM and the FanDuel, they're there as well, right?

Because that's digital, right?

And they are the powerhouses.

They're the ones who are really playing this.

Five years ago, quite recently, maybe February, I was in New Orleans and I stayed at the casino you're talking about.

That's where they put us up because of the conference that I was at.

So I sort of, I could imagine and picture what you were talking about.

And I hate that shit.

I absolutely hate that shit.

And to my point, right now, politics is about campaign fundraising and increasingly it's going to be about gambling, right?

You will bet on who you think is going to win and that candidate will be able to use your bet on the campaign so that if they win, you win.

And it's again, it's corruption, right?

It's money, it's commodification, it's all that shit.

So yeah, it's scary, fucking scary.

I listen to a podcast where people call in and ask for advice and they leave voicemails.

It's a kind of cool idea because the person only gets limited information and then has to guess to give the advice.

But he's pretty intuitive, he's pretty spot on.

And someone called in right after the election and they said, I don't like Donald Trump, I did not vote for Donald Trump and my wife hates Donald Trump and refuses to talk to anyone who voted for him.

I had a hunch three days before the election that Donald Trump was going to slaughter his opponent and win the election outright.

So I placed a large, considerable bet with my own bank account, money that my wife does not know exists.

I not only won, but I made life changing money.

I have no idea how to tell this to my wife.

Or what to do with it.

I'm willing to spend it all on her.

It has nothing to do with Donald Trump.

What is your advice?

It doesn't matter what the answer was.

I just thought that situation was absolutely fascinating and it ties into everything you just said for me at least.

So 100%.

And look, that's what the stock market is.

If people understood what these companies did to get a profit, like there's not a lot of morality in the stock market.

There's no such thing as ethical investing.

Right.

It's all fucking, you know, the game is rigged, the rules aren't fair.

Might is right.

Unfortunately.

So without further ado, let us get into our feature conversation.

I'm kind of operating on very little sleep and I rarely take caffeine, but I did have a third of a cup of coffee today with fresh maple syrup.

So I'm, I'm mixed.

I got a little bit of hyperness, but I'm also greatly fatigued.

A lot of wolves in the neighborhood last night, so a lot of dog action, protecting the farm, which, you know, if you don't catch it at the right time, it'll keep you up.

But let us talk about immigration because I've kind of reached a decision in the last day, couple of days which always toys in the back of my head and as all decisions I make, it's always flexible.

I don't think I'm going to go to the United States anytime soon.

I am hearing far too many situations of arbitrary detention and like week long detention.

And it just really doesn't feel like if there was such a thing as the rule of law where you knew what the rules were and you could comply with the rules, no problem.

But they are now like that used to be arbitrary but is now mandatory when you cross the border and you are non US citizen, it's arbitrary with US citizens mandatory for non US citizens that they search your social media and they search the messaging on your phone and they don't do that manually.

Right, that's AI that'll do that.

So I'm fucked six ways from Sunday.

Like there's no way that I don't have.

And the first time that I ever went to the United States was when I was 17 with a one way bus ticket to New York City and my parents were in New York City waiting to meet me.

But I did have, as soon as you opened up my duffel bag, a huge monster sized tome, the life and death of VI Lenin.

And the border guard looked at me with this one way ticket and this Leninist book and me at 17.

I learned then, as I have since then, that crossing the border is not only a, an act of theater, but anything can and will be used against you to make that a difficult process.

I don't think I can go anymore.

I'm curious what your read is, especially in the southwest where this is particularly politicized, but also just your read of the online culture and the world that you live in.

How is America seeing this current politicization focus, hyper focus on immigration and the laws and procedures around it.

Yeah, many, many answers and most of them are complicated even in my head to, to grasp.

But I want to touch on the way you feel about traveling to America right now.

Is the way I've always felt about traveling to China.

Which if I liken that to an American they'd be like, no, what are you talking about?

We're not draconian, blah blah blah.

Of course your fears are grounded with China.

They're the kind of place that would use AI to check your profile, see that you've written essays and articles and publish them on China.

Blah blah, blah blah blah.

So not only do I have compassion for you, but also we've talked about this before, before your, your border crossing is scary as all hell.

I had them once tear up panels in my car looking for drugs.

They peeled apart our sandwiches to check to see if we'd hidden drugs in peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

It was crazy.

And it was all because my friend said I have to pee.

That was literally what triggered it.

My friend said I have to pee.

We all looked at him, we're like what the is wrong with you?

Why would you tell a guard I have to pee?

That's like the number one.

I have to get rid of drugs in the toilet line.

So granted there was like you that, that you know the book the tome like Lenin excuse.

But it doesn't matter.

The point is I've been to Thailand, I've lived in Thailand.

Like it is scary as shit to go to another country.

And there is, there's that just moment of complete vulnerability.

Also as Americans know, our state department does not go to bad for you.

Brittney Griner was a above average famous WNBA player and it took so much social pressure to get her released.

And then the backlash to that was I actually thought pretty fair.

And then of course the like arguments for why, why she wasn't guilty.

And so I'm putting this into context with you, like who gives a about Jesse H.

Like oh, I'm gonna write a Letter and say, like, my friend is a good citizen.

No, you're not.

You hate America.

Just show up and take you.

Yeah.

And then.

And then I thought the same thing about what if I'm trying to traverse into Canada now I'm on a.

I'm on a dangerous podcast once a week.

Like, what?

And again, I'm a writer.

I'm a published writer.

I have, like, a lot of stuff behind me.

So the.

That's the first part.

The second part to your question is what's the tone like?

The tone is different everywhere.

I would say.

One of the things I should mention to you is there's a small but big enough voice right now of outrage in America about the fact that you booed our national anthem in the USA Canada hockey game.

I know that this is, like, performative.

And tell me more about that.

Where are you seeing that?

Because that's important.

Like, we just.

As a tangent to Flag this for our ongoing research methodology, I think it's safe to assume that Canada is going to be invaded, annexed.

And in order for that to happen, there has to be a dehumanization, a demonization campaign.

So this is where, you know, as a double agent, we kind of require your eyes to give us anecdotes as to where this shit is happening.

Yeah.

And I would say, as far as dehumanization goes, the argument as, you know, credibly sourced here, first of all, it's not in main mainstream and like, ESPN's not saying it.

I don't watch McAfee, but he's the kind of guy who would say it, so I could, you know, do a little further research.

I actually read it on one of the news sources I like, which is Yahoo News because it's populated by.

Yeah, I.

I prefer to use that as my choice menu for what I might read.

Yeah.

And then of course, I can go to many sources to read about the same topic that Yahoo brings up, but I don't like to use Google News.

I don't like to use so.

And I am a huge sports fan.

Like.

Like preposterously dumb.

Like, make fun of me as much as you want.

I don't care.

It's my one Neanderthal connection that I like, still cling to.

Literally cling.

And.

And so this article mattered to me because here's why.

It is unfathomable for me to picture a scene in which Americans would boo the Canadian anthem, of which I've heard a million times, that Blue Jays visiting US games, you know, in hockey and things like that.

So I did put myself into the shoes of, like, how that feels.

And it is, it is awkward and weird to like, think about it because, yes, it is.

I've never heard anyone boo any national anthem at any game.

And that is a significant and big deal.

It's also significant in a big deal in a good way because it's what Nader is trying to talk about.

It's.

It's like a collective voice.

And I think a lot of the people who are hockey fans, I would assume, might be okay with the invasion.

They might be the kind of people to side with the new administration coming in because they wouldn't stop a Kickstarter for truckers.

They wouldn't like, you know.

Yeah, well, Wayne Gretzky, you know, he's been the poster boy, like, to your point.

Hockey guys historically are very right wing.

And there's a lot of reasons.

You know, hockey certainly in Canada and the northern states is a football like, gladiator culture.

Right.

It is very much about brawn over brain, although there is lots of brain.

But it is fundamentally a game of muscle, a game of force.

The finesse, I would argue, is secondary to the force, because if you just have finesse.

And to take a tangent, one of the reasons I hate Wayne Gretzky is he's from a corrupt era because nobody was allowed to touch Gretzky.

He was so valuable to the league that the few people who did body check Gretzky, their careers were over.

And in his latter years, like when he was on the Los Angeles Kings, he had Marty McSorley who would literally beat the living daylight out of anyone who looked at Gretzky wrong.

Like, that's a gladiator culture, you know, and that's why the Canadian hockey guys.

Yeah.

Don't with them.

You were saying, though.

Oh, well.

And I also think what's interesting is the only sport that runs left in America, but it's a big sport, is NBA basketball.

And it's because it's predominantly African Americans and.

Yeah.

And.

And a lot of weed.

A lot of weed.

And yeah, NBA has been historically a very pro weed players association.

The league hasn't been pro weed, but the NBA's have been a very weed friendly and they're buying their weed probably from guys who are lefties.

But anyway, I digress.

Go ahead.

Well, and also to that point, like this, the only sport that didn't test for it for years and because they.

Would lose all their talent.

Yeah, it's.

It's funny because it's like, not contestable.

And it's like one of the few statements you can make about a monolith like race type thing that like doesn't matter and everyone would just readily accept.

So I, I think it's not even race though.

The white people in the NBA are.

Yeah, yeah.

It's exactly like it's, it's culture.

We could talk.

This is why race is so up.

Right.

Race is designed by white supremacists to create fault lines that can never be touched and never addressed.

Versus culture is inherently fluid.

Right.

And so I, I assume you're not on TikTok.

No, I mean, yeah, no.

So I, I'm probably going to write a substack about it, but I nonetheless will probably send you a 43 minute TikTok.

You, you don't need TikTok to watch it.

Okay, cool.

It is unbelievably brilliant.

Like brilliant.

And it's a short film by a guy who a.

I wouldn't call him a hip hop scholar because I think his scholarly background is theology.

But he is clearly a hip hop fan.

Like a hip hop head, like loves hip hop.

And this is this 43 minute short film.

And you're.

You love film.

So this is where again I confident sending this to you.

It's maybe one of the best short films I've seen in a decade.

I have a couple amazing.

Go ahead.

Because I'm obsessed with filmmaking and it's actually going to be the next 10, 15 years of my life.

I'm going to go back to making films.

It's my favorite way to express myself.

And tick tock is the vehicle with which I would probably use to try to get eyes on what I'm doing.

Because unlike other projects where it was, I want publishing, I want backup, I want, you know, financial thing.

This point making films would be more about just like I want to give to the world.

So with that said, TikTok is a, is a market I'm interested in.

So I'm actually curious.

Just real quick, is the thing that you watched in like phone format?

Okay.

Yeah.

Like he did the vertical format, which I, to your point, I tend not to like.

Yeah, I much prefer the whole.

Cause I grew up.

Look, we grew up on television.

Yeah.

So we, we want the wide format.

Right.

That, that is our psychology.

That is our portal to the world.

I, I think there is a different culture because it's not always young people, because it is people in societies where the mobile programming was more interesting than the TV programming because TV is exclusive versus mobile is not.

So yeah, I I would never.

I would never in my life think that I would enjoy a, you know, vertical kind of short film like this.

But it's just so dope.

It is just so incredibly good.

That's why I'm talking about it now and saying, hey, Mike, I gotta send you this.

This is unbelievable.

Unfortunately, I don't know if Tick Tock's gonna be around.

We gotta see the.

The Tick Tock deadline is coming up.

Oh, wow.

And it could be the sabotage of the century, because a short film like this can be on TikTok and can find an audience on TikTok, and I think it would be suppressed elsewhere.

It strikes me in very spontaneous form that I jumped right to immigration and I skipped over community.

But actually, I see a perfect segue from this because.

Let's talk about TikTok.

Let's talk about the TikTok community.

Let's talk about.

Okay, go ahead.

Yeah.

Because the reason I asked is, like, I want to be part of a community that cares about art.

Okay.

So, like, film for the purpose of art, whether.

So documentaries is something I could do, but that's not actually where I see my best use of my skills with film and video editing, which I went to school for.

Yeah.

And so.

So there's.

The reason I was asking about that is that I want to fit in with the community in a good way and I want to, like, make it right.

But.

But let's talk about the community of TikTok and let's talk about online communities and children, because this is something I'm more and more obsessed with every day.

I have children, and there's no reports that are good.

There's not a single report that ever says kids are better off accessing the larger community of the online world.

And that could change, of course, but as of now, it hasn't.

So how do we deal with the fact that we used to actually have an adult community?

It really was easy to pull it off before the Internet.

It really was.

Like people looked around a room.

If there are kids around, they kind of monitor their behavior.

Bars had no.

Yeah, I disagree.

I think that's nostalgia.

Yeah.

Well, let me hear that.

I, as a guy, grew up in the 70s.

I don't think that ever existed.

We were on our own before the Internet.

It's just no one had the evidence.

But were you on your own with adult content is what I would be more interested in asking you.

Yeah, I mean, like, we found Hustler.

Magazines in the woods.

Yeah.

I was gonna say the adult content was different.

Yeah.

So I think there is something to be said about how.

And we're digressing.

I want to come back to the community thing right now, but this is a pressing issue.

I do think that human sexuality is a continuum, not an isolated thing.

And I think to your point, if adult sexuality changes, that will naturally change what children are exposed to.

So where I growing up, when I was in daycare, so this was pre kindergarten, I took my dad's skin mags and brought them to daycare to show all the other kids at daycare.

Look at these naked photos.

Look at that.

So cool.

And all the other kids are like, wow, Jesse, where do you get these?

And then, you know, one of the counselors confiscated it all and put one of the pictures up by his desk.

So this was a different world.

But, you know, the material that was available then is not comparable to the material that is available, available now.

Right, because we've seen an escalation in kink, an escalation in what turns people on, what gets people off.

And that combined with an active industry, has created a plethora of pornographic material that never existed before.

I digress.

Let me shelve the children thing for a bit so we can talk about TikTok and community.

The revolutionary success of TikTok is its ability to create automatic community on the fly.

So there is no centralized TikTok community.

There are an infinite amount of TikTok sub communities that can be very powerful and very large around very specific subjects.

Every year, every six months, every three months, I take on a big learning project.

My learning project right now is welding.

I've decided to teach myself how to weld and therefore I started searching welding on TikTok.

I quickly became a part of welding talk, right?

The community on TikTok around welding.

And holy fuck, better than any college, any university, any trade school.

Like, just the amount of knowledge I can absorb off that shit instantly is gold.

So, yeah, there's a lot of sub communities.

There's a lot of communities.

But allow me to pivot the conversation.

And this is why I put community on the agenda.

I think as creators, it is important for us to have community.

You know, I talked about the podcast union the other day, but I've been reflecting on conversation as I've been doing the podmatch.com anthropological experiment.

And I engage with a lot of people who make podcasts, has, you know, they all have this, and I think I've said this to you before, they all have this obsession with the five star rating, right?

They think that if someone gives them a five star rating on Apple, that is all of a sudden going to give them an audience.

And I completely reject that metric, right?

I'm like, if you want an audience, whether large or meaningful, you need to cultivate community.

And most people, when they say this, give me this bullshit answer of, yeah, I tried that.

It didn't work.

And I know full well they didn't fucking try.

They think that community is like me on Facebook, show up at the chat, post a comment, right?

That community development is much messier, much more intense, much more hard work than that.

So I offer that as a Parisie, to throw it back to you and say, in your journeys amongst the podcast ecosphere, as well as your own efforts as a creator, what are your thoughts on the community strategies?

The community development capacity that is neglected or developed in either successful or unsuccessful contexts?

I'm going to start my answer with an anecdote.

Yesterday I received an email from a former guest of mine on my podcast, Coffin Talk.

His episode aired about a month and a half ago and his episode was recorded.

That means, like about two months ago, he's stuck, you know, like you, but in reverse, because I was on yours first.

But the point is different people stick and there's just different people who I'm like, ah, I really like you now.

Everyone doesn't stick.

But one thing I do do is if you come on my podcast, I will follow you and I will participate in your community for as long as I can slash with the amount of time I have an ability to do so.

This guest sends out a weekly email called, like, Positive News.

And I really like his approach.

I like what he does.

I'm a very, very active cheerleader with any person who's a creator.

I get told this a lot and I know it's true.

And I'm not bragging so much as I am shocked by how often I'm told no one else does this.

And I think the reason is because most people don't understand that you should join communities and help other communities.

It doesn't matter if you have one or not.

And so he wrote me back and he said, you are so generous with your feedback.

And I wrote back and I said, I think the problem with our culture and the world as a large is that what I'm doing should not be called generous.

So that's my short answer to your question about community is we have fucked up.

When you're saying, like, share and comment.

We have fucked up the like button.

That documentary on Netflix really is it didn't change my life, but it gave me the feedback I needed to at least know I'm not insane.

It is very up to tell creators.

You should be paying attention to metrics.

It is very up to tell creators.

If you build a community, you'll be rich.

It is very up to associate the word community with anything more than community.

Yeah.

So.

And that's why I asked you, because I knew you'd have a great answer.

And certainly in the last 20, 30 years of my professional career, the word community has become synonymous with network and networking in the old sort of sales model sense.

And I think people have forgotten the vulnerability, the reciprocity, the humanity of community.

And so, to your point, their expectations have become so low that what you are doing, which I think part of what they mean to say, but they don't have the words, is that you're a role model.

They look at you and they go, I wish other people were doing what Mike is doing.

And you're partly doing it because you have a moral compass, you have a sense of self.

So you want to do this because you think it is the right thing to do.

But I also think that it's inspiring in the sense that it makes other people think, oh, oh, yeah.

It's actually not difficult for me to show other creators some love, because that's how love works.

Right?

Love is not a scarce resource.

You don't need to hoard it.

You can give it away freely.

You will have more to give.

And the more you give, the more you'll get.

Right.

The more that it comes back.

And I've always taken a different approach to community in the sense that I'm interested in people like yourself.

I'm interested in people who I can learn from.

I'm interested in people who I can enjoy spending time with, who I can have a good, smart, agile conversation with.

And in that regard, Metaviews has built a pretty fucking solid community.

Right?

And these are people that I can turn to if I am in detention.

Of course, where I am in detention will be the difficult problem, but if I can get word out, I do feel that there are enough people who'd be like, what the fuck?

Yeah, man, free Jesse.

But I want to get you to push further.

How would you, you know, the same way I was trying to push you to be the space consultant in terms of training for the mission to Mars.

What's your.

How would you frame this as a kind of spiel to a podcaster or as a creator as to the steps that they can take?

To build community.

Because I agree with you telling them, well, be generous.

That's the wrong frame.

That's not really the message that we want to be conveying.

So if you could frame it in your own essence, your own kind of ethos, ethics, I think that would be very powerful.

Yeah.

I think I should start by just saying I'm a deeply insecure person who's yet oddly very secure in one thing, which is my love is never going to hurt or come back to bite me in the ass.

So, like, everything else I do does come back to bite me in the ass.

Even, like, sarcasm.

Even, like, little funny jokes and jabs.

Like, all the things I think are, like, fun and cool and, like, interesting.

They.

They somehow usually end up coming back to hurt my thin skin and my shallow pride.

But the one thing that never hurts is love.

And so, like, for an example, as you were talking about our friendship, I genuinely started feeling, like, little tear duct movement, because I can't thank you enough, Jesse, for our friendship.

And it really actually matters to me.

And in this time where I feel so alone and so alienated by the anger of, like, two peer groups that are equally important to me, the awful, devastating reality that there are people in control who really want to hurt the other group that was in control, who also really wanted to hurt this group.

And the fact that I can see the scaffolding that led to this, and I can see, like, you know, how quickly we could just get rid of all this.

It's.

It's dark and scary and sad, and so I'm desperate for community, and I'm desperate for your kind of community.

And I was really, really scared when you were talking about immigration and traveling, because I actually have it on my calendar to bring my family to visit you at your farm in the future.

Like, it's going to be a huge day in my life where we shake hands in person, we smoke a joint and.

But we got to be careful about how we do that, though.

That's my point.

That, you know, part of the consequence of intelligence is understanding the risks and the dangers.

There are times when I wish I was fully fucking ignorant.

Right.

I'm not knowing the, you know, the shit that's out there, but it is difficult.

And, you know, this is where I think community is the way to get through the shit that we're describing.

But also to the two peer groups you have that are at war, I think community is the antidote.

And I think creating.

To go to my point about role modeling, I think in creating community and Demonstrating community.

You know, you can't reach everybody, but you can certainly start getting people to realize that there's alternatives to the shit show, there's alternatives to the battle.

With that said, let us in a small performative kind of as a pilot, a test project, I didn't end up replying as I'm sure you figured out where you and I have different communication protocols.

You're not really into messaging outside of text and for reasons of border conflict, I can't text.

I obviously have moments on the farm where like I'm completely disconnected, right.

And I'm with the animals or I'm with the machines or with the flood that we're currently dealing with.

So like you sent me this great email breaking down a debate structure which I thought was fantastic.

And I think at some future point, even though we temporarily shelved it for another focus, because I agree the second focus you came up with is definitely stronger.

But I love the format.

But let us today put the format aside and just get to the argument.

And I think if I understand this correctly, I as the Canadian will be role playing the Canadian arguing in favor of joining America.

Correct.

And you will be.

I will be an American telling Americans this is a bad idea.

We should not be including this country for any reason.

And I, I did want to.

Before we start, I see it as completely different.

So I want you to pick which one.

But one would be where we actually include your already existing territories and provinces as states.

So you would have 10 or 13.

Because I don't understand what a territory is.

I'm just going to be.

Well and, and I, I think so again this is a pilot meaning we may recreate this entirely in the future.

Let's just riff and improv.

So we've assigned the roles for now.

I will be the Canadian, you will be the American.

At a future point for sure we will flip roles at least a few times.

But I think in this context our only metric and I will let you choose it, it's zero out of ten.

The satire level zero is fully fucking earnest.

Even though we're still role playing versus 10 is like beyond Monty Python, right?

Like or no, 11 is Spinal Tap.

You know, Elon Musk loves 11 and he added to the Tesla.

And now that I don't like Elon Musk, I like what to not laugh at that joke.

That's how up bitterness and psychotic like time.

I mean it just is.

It's weird to like have enough self reflection to see how petty that is of me.

To be like, well that Joke which was not at all made by Elon Musk, but now Elon Musk made it, and now Elon Musk is a bad, bad man.

So I'm not going to joke.

Legalize comedy.

But again, zero to 10, what's your satire number?

I want to start.

I want to start zero today.

I just want to go.

Okay.

Fully earnest.

Okay.

I.

I will say as my own disclaimer, I will still have a little bit of humor because I have to.

That's.

That's fine.

But it will be earnest humor.

I agree.

Okay, who goes first?

Do you want to flip a coin, or shall you want to go first?

Let's flip a coin.

Okay.

I have a number in my head between 0 and 10.

You can pick odd or even, and I will be honest about the answer.

Okay.

Odd.

Yes, it is odd.

So that means you got it.

Right.

You go first.

Okay.

Oh, wait, I just triggered my.

Okay, Google tales.

Okay, there.

I turned it off.

American AI.

Go ahead.

While it may seem advantageous to the American people to bring in another country and another culture and take some of their resources and use them and welcome them in and join our.

Our flock, the Canadian people are not actually like us.

And even though we think they are, their origin story is different.

Their ties to Queen Elizabeth or whoever runs England right now is different.

Their sense of freedom and values is different.

They're not actually our people.

So if we were to invite them in, I believe there's 30 million of them.

It would drastically change our culture.

This isn't like adding a couple drops into the ocean.

This is actually like adding a significant lake into the ocean.

It would dilute the purpose and foundation of America, and it would drastically change our country.

They are.

Tell me how much time I have just so I can.

Oh, no, you.

You go first.

You take up as much time as you want, and then we go from there.

We're improv.

Yeah.

Okay, so another argument I would like to make.

And again, these are premise arguments.

I can go into more details, people, but this is for you to understand why it is not a good idea to even entertain this notion of bringing the Canadians in.

It's less about resources and finances and money.

We have no border problem with them.

They've never tried to attack us, and we're not really going to attack them.

This is just a silly idea.

If anything, we love the buffer.

We love having a different country above us and a different country below us.

It actually protects us.

And the Monroe Doctrine already gave us the ability to defend any of these territories.

If we need to.

So it's also unnecessary.

We don't need them for military bases.

All we have to do is, is use NATO and bring back the five, the EYES program.

So.

So it's a very silly idea to do this.

But.

But the main thing I want to say is they're not like us.

They're socialist.

They're.

They're a very different people.

They don't believe in free speech.

They don't watch football.

They.

They barely had a baseball team that couldn't even last and they had to move.

They have a.

A province that wants to speak a different language called French.

We don't even want to allow people to speak Spanish in our country.

What, we're going to now have a debate about French and Spanish.

This is just silly.

It's the wrong time to do this.

If anything, we need to be trimming the deficit, honing in our spending.

We need to, you know, build up our military to defend against threats all over the world.

This is a waste of our time.

It's a bad energy to add into our population.

And I think they're socialist.

I think it's going to basically be California Part 2 and 3, and it's going to change every election and we're going to have a disastrous divorce after it.

So I would just like to start my remarks by stating the obvious, where my opponent was addressing the Americans listening, because Americans only speak to Americans.

I will, of course, be addressing Canadians and Americans, since because I'm speaking about America, there will be Americans listening.

And I do very much agree with your assertion that adding 30 million people to the United States will be an irrevocable transformation of the political, economic and cultural fabric of the United States.

And that is exactly why I think Canadians and Americans should embrace this.

I would like to begin by saying that that 30 million number is actually quite low.

20 million of us have already invaded your country as an advanced guard, infiltrated your entertainment industry, play a key role in your energy, legal as well as commercial services, financial services.

In this regard, we've kind of already got our boot around your neck.

You just don't realize it.

Now, on the point of socialism, yes, that is true.

But allow me to point out that where the United States has lost its eye on the ball is no longer able to uphold true American values.

We are more American than you are.

We understand the value of freedom.

We understand the role of free speech.

And fundamentally, Canada has something that the United States never has and without us, never will have, and that's fairness.

Fairness has fundamentally been central to the Canadian identity.

And while there are many Americans who have risen to power precisely because there isn't fairness, there are a lot of Americans who believe that fairness is central to the American way.

Now, as to Canadians, why we should not so much abandon, but compromise our sovereignty, we're smarter than these dumb motherfuckers.

We not only have a huge hand in all of their industries, we could just take it all over.

And our problem right now is all of our natural resources.

We have no other market other than the United States.

We're kind of stuck selling our oil to one buyer, stuck selling most of our agricultural products.

I mean, it's either America or China versus if we took America.

I mean, if we were to submit ourselves to American rule, that would allow us to reach much global markets by leveraging their transportation system, system, leveraging their ports, and really creating an economic behemoth.

The real issue here is not just where our 30 million, or dare I say 50, 60 million votes are going to fall, but to my opponent's derogatory remark, what role the Bloc Quebecois will play in reinvigorating American democracy.

And that's where I think there are many Americans who'd love to see a third party.

The fact that that third party will speak French, or at least will speak a Quebecois version of French that I'm sure will increasingly involve American slang and vernacular, so that they would be just as easy to understand as any other American with a regional dialect.

I think that rather than be a threat to America, we are America's redemption.

In the face of China, in the face of crippling ignorance and incompetence within your own political class, we offer you a vision of good governments.

We offer you a vision of stability.

And this is why the majority of your corporations have already signed on to the Canada Pact, which ensures economic fairness and sanity for all.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Your joints can be thrown at the bottom of the stage.

Representative Hearst, I would just like to know how you define the word derogatory when referring to Americans as fucking idiots.

That's not derogatory at all.

It's generous.

There's a lot of words I could use that would not be as forgiving.

That would be tears below that.

So I thought that was not derogatory at all.

I was really trying to encourage people to see the modest amount of intellect they have as a start.

Well, I would like you to show more modesty.

And I would be curious as to what would you say, a la, like a job interview.

What is one of Canada's weaknesses that you would admit to humility.

We say sorry too often.

I think part of the things that we'll have to do upon becoming American citizens is embrace our pride.

Embrace that American pride, that American exceptionalism.

We've never really believed in American exceptionalism, but with Canadian leadership, anything is possible.

I mean, you could start by saying sorry instead of sorry, but you know, that's just a little American advice for you.

The regional dialect is gonna work towards our fashion.

I mean, already ambassadors Ricky, Julian and Bubbles have not only been spreading the good word of cannabis, but they've on a linguistic level been ensuring that the American vernacular, the American street culture very much vibes with the Canadian street culture.

And conversely, just like J Rock, there are lots of Canadians who speak the hip hop culture and the hip hop parlance.

So no, on the contrary, I think many of our aboots and our how's it going?

Is.

Are going to be spoken by many more people who are living in the southern states, as we will come to call them.

How do you feel about the lack of diversity in your country?

Your population is almost predominantly, with the exception of the First Nations, a white population.

How are you going to expect to fold into a country with such a diverse population and a wealth of nationalities and ethnicities?

I'm sorry, your statistics are inaccurate.

Canada's socioethnographic diversity has changed tremendously over the last 30 years, the last 10 in particular.

And we will continue to be a backdoor for.

For illegal immigration into the United States only because our collective workforce, quite frankly, depends upon it.

And look, you know, it's a whole lot better than blaming Mexicans.

Blame the Canadians.

Right?

I mean, we don't care.

There is a great south park song with that exact theme.

So blame Canada.

What.

What do you say about the allegations that you're.

By the way, we've turned the dialogue up increasingly.

What would you say about the.

I haven't.

That your country has a worse sense of humor than ours.

For example, second class comedies.

And why do your comedians flock to our country?

Why did Mike Myers come here?

Why did John Candy come here?

What was.

What was wrong with sntv?

What was wrong with.

Are you.

I'm sorry, I.

You thought I.

You clearly not being satirical, you're only demonstrating that really incredible American capacity for ignorance.

You got this the other way around.

Our sense of humor is far superior to yours.

That's why it is so difficult for our comedians to make a living here because the competition is just so intense.

They have to go to the barren Wasteland that is Los Angeles, the barren wasteland that is Manhattan.

And compete with you, you boring, droll, ignorant American comics.

No, our sense of humor is far greater than yours.

I mean, come on.

Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, all the great American comics, they broke their chops here in Canada.

Don't get the wrong idea.

Before there was even Second City, the Canadian comedy sketches were brutal because if they didn't make the audience laugh, the audience would eat them alive, quite literally.

And what about.

How do you expect to adjust to our system of, like a popular vote and our system of not exactly representative.

A different system.

No parliament.

You know, we elect our presidents, we don't let our congressmen elect our presidents.

Like how?

Well, I mean, I.

I suppose I assumed from your earlier accusation of socialism and my earnest acknowledgement therein.

This is when you called me representative, I kind of snickered because I know.

I like that.

I'm not a representative.

I'm a commissar.

There is no Congress, There is no parliament.

There are only Soviets.

I was actually trying to look it up, but I wanted to pay attention, so I couldn't.

I was like, what the hell do they call these people?

These assholes?

I should say, yes, well, no, it's.

We would have Soviets and these Soviets would be localized throughout.

So I think America has wholeheartedly rejected its democracy, and that is precisely why Americans are turning to us Canadians for leadership.

And while we actually don't have socialism, that's what you guys have asked for, and we just happen to be eager to please.

So we are willing to get rid of our King Charles, to your earlier point, abandon our constitutional monarchy and create people Soviets throughout the continent so that true power goes to the people.

That is clearly the American dream and we are here to fulfill it.

I think my final question for you, turning the dial back to zero, is how do you expect your first nations people to deal with how differently we treat our people, who we would never even call First Nations?

You dialed it down to zero.

So I have to pause and say that will be where one front of the Civil War will be raging.

Other fronts will include Michigan, parts of Tennessee, Colorado, Montana.

But yes, Canada's First Nations.

Not entirely because they are very diverse, but many will just say we have not been party to these negotiations.

We have no interest in what you are agreeing to.

As long as you stay the away from our land, you will live.

And do you think the militaries can fold in together?

And how would you see that happening?

Like how?

Like who would.

Obviously, you're Becoming Americans.

So would we have to retest all of your military members?

Like how do you see that going on?

Or do we just abolish your military and then anyone can reapply?

What do we do with your, I don't know if you call them generals, but like five star generals, people who are already high up in your military.

Well, I think to your point, since you invited us to form a socialist republic and the United States military is one of the preeminent socialist organizations in the world, we will maintain it.

Canadian officers will receive equivalent rank.

The Canadian military, the one thing that they are good at, trained for, is liaising with other militaries.

So it won't be hard for them to integrate into that structure, especially given the socialist roadmap that you've requested.

Puzzling enough, you have satisfied a lot of my, my questions as far as like an understanding of how you would deal with and all that.

But I hope you can at least see even through your answers that for anyone who's looking on this vote, this is not going to be a quick, easy or uncomplicated process.

And I think Americans don't like things that aren't quick, easy and uncomplicated.

I don't know why you keep coming back to vote.

There's no vote here, friend.

Right.

What we are talking about fundamentally is some form of military conquest.

I am hypothesizing that the civil war that you guys will be facing will be so incompetent, so inflamed, so incendiary that it will so thoroughly decimate your infrastructure and capacity for governance that you will be pleading to us for food, water and connectivity.

And that, that'll be the terms of our negotiation.

And there won't be a vote because the alternative for you guys will be starvation and the alternative for us will be a zombie apocalypse.

So there'll be mutual aid, mutual interest in finding that common ground.

But to your point, and this brings us full circle, and this is where I'd say, I think there's a lot of fun in having these kinds of role playing debates and we should further develop this as a concept.

But to bring us back full circle to where we started in the news segment of today's show, I think most Americans and Canadians are still thinking about the world as it was five, 10 years ago.

They are still thinking that this is some contest between someone named Clinton and someone named Trump or someone named Bush and someone named Gore, when no, we are in a new fucking world when America and Canada are no longer at a point of thinking of themselves as friends.

Like, this is a completely different world.

I think you and I were the first to jokingly say there ain't gonna be elections in four years.

There may not be in two.

You know, and I'm seeing people say that the civil war is this year, right?

That this is the year where shit breaks down.

So that's what I say.

I, I, the only thing I don't want to do is take yesterday's model and project it onto the present.

I would rather find any new fucking model to understand what's going on now.

Go ahead.

Do you, in Canada, do people ever talk about a civil war there?

Has that ever come up?

I don't follow.

I mean, yeah, it comes up.

And like the, I, I don't think there'd be a civil war as there would be ongoing internal conflict.

Okay?

Because there isn't.

The people with guns are all on one side.

So if the other side, you know, were like, it wouldn't be a fight.

And if the army or the military tried to crack down on the people with guns, the army would join the people who have the guns.

So there really, there just wouldn't be a civil war.

There would just be a coup.

And then after the coup, there might be some disturbance.

I, I don't know if you were still with CBC when, when it had.

No, I don't think you were.

No, you definitely weren't.

But can you relate to me?

Like your version, and I'm not saying your version like in, in air quotes as in like a derogatory way.

It's just having living in the country at the time and being who you are.

The Kickstarter thing I brought up was a big deal to me.

It was like a really weird turning point in my life where I got a glimpse of Canadians fighting each other.

And that's something we never.

Remind me.

When you say Kickstarter, what you mean?

Yeah, I'm sorry.

There was a trucking.

So the language you want to use is not Kickstarter.

We call it here the Freedom convoy, okay?

Like Free D U M B.

That's how it's going.

So I thank fucking God I wasn't with the CBC when that happened, but where I was was real fucking close by.

Cause it was in Ottawa and I live a 45 minute drive from where it was.

And a lot of people who live around me totally supported it.

And to your point, because I do need to get off because we got a hay delivery coming.

Yeah.

There was a point where I really felt that the RCMP and the military were going to join the convoy, that the government was going to fall, that we were going to see a far right government form that was anti vax, anti mask, anti fucking everything, everything.

And again, if it wasn't for Trump, the political party that supported the convoy would be the Prime Minister.

Right.

Like the, the liberals have totally shot back in the polls because of Trump.

Wow.

Right?

Versus that freedom convoy shit was huge.

And to your point about civil war, the police were sympathetic with the convoy, the federal police, the military.

Right.

The chief of police in Ottawa quit because his deputies were disrespecting him and in defiance.

And the chief was a black guy.

Right.

From Toronto.

Right.

So like again, the cops were ready to fucking rebel, the military was fucking ready to rebel, the government was ready to fall.

They declared martial law, basically.

Right.

They did a declaration, emergency declaration, and then later had a parliamentary finding to argue that it wasn't justified.

But I kind of think it was justified because I think what they don't want to tell everyone is that the police and like that the fucking security apparatus was about to change sides.

Right.

So it was fucked up.

To your point, it was our January 6th.

Right.

Like that was, that was the analogy.

But to go back to my point where most people in America have guns, really only it's vastly.

The right wingers.

Yeah.

On the left, but there's also right wingers.

One thing that should be brought up though is the massive amount of illegal guns in the hands of people who are certainly not right wing in cities.

But whether or not they could collectivize and be led or.

They would defend their turf.

Yeah, exactly.

They would defend their stores.

Right.

So like you're at.

But, but that doesn't.

That means just a small thing to bring.

Yeah, I'm not.

But, but here in Canada though, those ille guns aren't really there.

Yeah, yeah, right.

Like there are illegal guns in the city.

Right.

And you know, they can be bought, but the quantities just do not compare to America, period.

So you just do not have the armaments necessary the way in America you do.

Because the other thing that's very tightly controlled here is ammunition.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Right.

Because you could have like all the arms you want, but if you don't have any ammo, what the fuck are.

You going to do?

Right, so, so yeah, that's, that's where Canada is very much a peaceful society.

But we'll see when America invades.

That could change pretty fast.

Right, yeah.

You know, thanks for talking about that because it's, it's so hard for me.

I have one really close friend in Toronto and I was talking to her at the time and she was able to help, you know, me see.

And, and she, you know, she's as opinionated as any of us.

But the point is I, I really was curious when you likened it January 6th.

Like, how was the fever pitch?

How was like the.

Yeah, you know, because.

Yeah.

And for me, by the way.

Yeah, sorry, go ahead, I'll leave.

Finish.

The.

The scariest thing I've ever witnessed in my adult lifetime in America was actually the summer of 2020 with the peaceful protests or the riots and how just two different channels away you could see one being called one and one.

That to me was like, oh, okay, this is like the Detroit, you know.

Yeah.

The army coming in.

I mean it was like so, so I'm glad you.

It was a close moment.

I mean I remember that summer of 2020 and, and it could have gone either way.

Like, and, and I wonder if this summer is, is going to have echoes of that.

And I don't know if we've talked about this before.

I feel like I've, I've said this recently, but that convoy in Ottawa, the freedom convoy, that shit never would have happened in Toronto.

Like the, the anarchists, the communists, the, the, the, to your point, people who are just fucking proud of their neighborhood all would have showed up and kicked these motherfuckers out of town.

Like that just never would have happened in Toronto.

The, the blue collar ethic, the kind of, the, the protest ethic, the anti authoritarian ethic is strong enough that all the people I knew in Toronto were like why isn't Ottawa fucking kicking these guys ass?

Like why aren't they fucking stabbing their tires and like throwing stink bombs in their cab?

And like that sort of shit would never fly in Toronto.

At least the old Toronto.

Toronto's heavily being gentrified right now, so people like myself aren't there anymore.

And Ottawa did have like, there were some pretty amazing anti fascist actions in Ottawa around the freedom convoy.

But again the way the cops in the RCMP were variable and all that was fucked up.

We digress.

Last thoughts before we go to shout outs.

Very last quick one.

I also find it incredibly interesting the more you and I talk about language, you know, and you.

I love that article you wrote with.

Anyway, the language of people who support Trump right now is that they're anti authority.

And I just find that very interesting that like the co option of terms pro life, pro choice, you know, just this constant battle of how do you manipulate the public?

So why.

And they're the rebels.

They have the rebel ground.

And that's incredibly powerful.

Right?

If the Democrats are perceived as the establishment, they are fucked, period.

And they need to go through not just the leadership overhaul, which they do, but like a communications overhaul, because they cannot defend the status quo.

The status quo is fucking indefensible.

Right?

And that is a precarious spot that democracy finds itself in.

We're out of time.

But of course, we have to honor the dead, honor the living, honor the future with our shout out.

So, Mike, what do you got for us today?

You know what?

I'm just gonna throw out the shout out for that podcast I mentioned because I do love it.

It's called Stavi's World.

S T A V V Y apostrophe S.

And it's just a good show about psychology.

People from Canada actually call in all the time.

He's a pretty popular comedian.

He doesn't take himself seriously.

But what he does take seriously is giving real earnest, intuitive, led advice, especially to young people.

And as an older person, I find comfort listening to young people ask really intelligent questions about what they're facing.

And it helps me just keep a little bit more appraised of what young people care about and what they talk about.

Right on.

Right on.

I'm going to say two shout outs I've already made, but I'm going to remind, just for those who've made it to the end, one is Donnell writes, which is the great American game, the 43 minute TikTok that I'm going to send you the moment I press stop recording donnellwrites on TikTok for anyone else listening.

And then the other was the Michael Lewis podcast Against the Rules, about the impact that gambling has had on America and on the sports industry and culture.

So with that said, I got a hay delivery showing up.

I got a big flood.

I got hungry animals.

So a big day coming ahead of us.

Thanks again, Mike.

Our radical American wackadoo hit it out of the park for his fourth appearance.

We will be back again soon.

I suspect that our next episode, if my memory serves me correctly, is going to be Anna Melnikoff, our dimensional liaison, returning once again to possibly talk about neurodivergent folks as the vanguard of human evolution.

Tune in.

Then you can find us on all the audio platforms on Substack and here at Eastern Ontario on a farm which hopefully when the border disappears, Mike and his family can come visit and hang out and smoke a doob.

Until then, we'll be here on the podcast, and we'll see y'all soon.

Stay fresh, stay safe, and stay cool.