Hi, I'm Nina Anderson,

I manaton Welcome to how to be human, a podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humaneness.

On this episode, Anna and I check in and have a chat.

Take a seat clear mind and let's chat. Hello, hello.

You're back.

I am. I'm appreciative for American Wi Fi. That's for sure.

It's not that good. USA, USA.

I still, I had seen that tick tock before you sent it to me. But it made me laugh so hard is like the red white and blue motherfucker. And so every time when I was in Italy, I was missing the US or like thinking of just that dumbshit lens what I would say to myself, red, white and blue mother Vanga. And poor Nina got the text. Anytime I was being real American, I would text. Nina be like USA.

And I'm like my worst nightmare.

Worst Nightmare. But honestly, I feel like you did agree with me of when my patriotism when I would come out when I was like, I got to London, my hotel doesn't have

air conditioning. And you needed a Caesar salad. Obviously, you know, when when you're in any country that's not this one. And you know, serves food. I mean, so many places don't eat like obviously we do here which is which is disgusting, frankly. But yeah. You know, they like eat their food. And we don't have a culture

thing. Yeah, we have oh my God. See, I both I have like a newfound appreciation for American sluttiness. And I have a newfound appreciation for like Europeans. Simplicity. Yeah. And if this is the first episode you've ever listened to how to be human, you're wild. And I love that about you. But this episode Nina and I like even though we're always apart like we've been apart for a month because I've been in Europe. I've been in Italy. And I feel like it's into a season it's end of summer we recorded the identity episode last week, we felt kind of like stirred up in a good way about that, that we thought it was worth doing an episode of us just like checking in and like talking to each other. And sort of like how this whole podcast ended up being so we don't really fully know what this episode will be. It will probably be kind of like I think our old advice episodes to be honest. A bit.

Yeah, I think we just want to I personally, I won't speak for you, but also felt like maybe we should tell people a little bit more about ourselves or, and yeah, maybe you guys don't care. But maybe you do. And this will be the episode where you'll find out like

our lowest downloads, I'm going to be honest, you're hurt my feelings. Hurt Nina No, she'll go the other direction be like, Fuck all those people. But I will be the one going. Nina. I care and I don't want it.

To hold up. I thought it was gonna slap No. I'm just like, take it or leave it. But I really you know, I've been thinking a lot about cultivating friendships and new friendships and being vulnerable. Being vulnerable, which I'm not saying we're good at is really great at holding space for other people. My

favorite is Nina is the biggest vulnerability, Faker. And yours so brave. You are she's so in and she has a pattern. And I'm going to tell y'all what

it was when you just were inside. These are the places you want to call me out. Go ahead.

I think because it's like, I feel like you almost opened the door now I guess I will walk through me tell everyone this is this is our couples therapy.

Tell the world Anna tell the world. What she'll

be like, I want you she'll be like so. And the best thing is, is I complained to Nina all the time. You know, like literally, when she's sleeping. I don't you know, like, I'll be like, I know, she goes to bed earlier than me. I'll quit texting, but like, I have no problems. I'll be like, I had a feeling about this and I want you to know it. And she holds I mean holds a tremendous amount of space for me. And then when she's upset, she'll be like, so. Like, do you have a minute and I'll be like, yeah, that's all like, is minutes, you know, and just be like, so this thing happened and, and it won't even you know, like, it'll be very vulnerable in the sense of it is a very personal thing, you know, and like, I'm not gonna give you an example but you'll be like, you know, like example

I don't care well

well, it's often I think he's been banned so it's often better dad, I'll be honest and, and you'll be like, so like, if this happened, I'll be like, That's act and so it's so then she'll, she'll be like so anyway, so it'll be you're going to like she has exhausted her window Hold

it any think Anyways, my favorite way out? Were totally.

And I'll be like we thought about it more of you want you to be like so thanks for that. And I might know she's no she's she's moved on?

Well, I don't think that's faking as much as I have a writ. We have such different ways

well no, it's not it's not fake No. But I think you're good at in all fairness, I think you, I think you're good at kind of living in a way that actually doesn't require a lot of vulnerability, because you often are just being straight up about like, who you are what you want what you expect, you know, like, you're communicating those things. So I think like what other people think about in terms of vulnerability, like, for you, you're like, oh, yeah, vulnerability, like, whereas you're just more living it if,

if I think that is accurate, I also have a very much shorter, like, attention span, when it comes to, like you, you like to process things, which I still appreciate about you, and you have all this information all the time, whether it's information that you something you've researched, or like you want to you're, you're gathering all this data about your feeling on something, and that you like to talk about it? And I don't, and not because I don't want to heal it or understand it, but because I genuinely don't want to say that many words. Yeah, like I just

somewhere between the two of us is the answer.

I think, you know, of course, I

you know, I certainly do, but because I think also to like, just because it's where you and I come at things from a very different place. Like I always laugh with you that you're like I say it, and therefore it is so and I'm like how, like, how does one cultivate that? You know, and I think you're good at valid, like, validating your experience of like, and that's something I've been working on of being like, I don't have to seek out this information. I don't have to, you know, but to be honest, like, often, for me, it doesn't feel like a choice. Like it really doesn't like my brain's desire, like it is for it is so strong, that I'm trying to understand something and like, I mean, whether it's you, it's my therapist, it's people who've known me for a long time, or like, why but you don't need to know, you don't need to know, and I'm like, I'm on your side, I agree with you. But my very much will not let it go. I think because I mean, I think for me, it's it's, it's it's a an effect of trauma, to be honest, that I'm like, if I can understand it, then I can keep myself safe, then I won't repeat it or I won't, you know, get into relationships with people who do that again, you know, like, it's this way of trying to keep myself safe. You know, whereas I think you were like, fuck that. No, I know, I'm good on it, I don't like it, I'm going to, you know, I am going to protect myself from it. That to me doesn't feel like protection. You know, like, I'm like, ooh, but I know it's outside the walls, and I want to better understand, you know, like, it's just how I think our brains react.

It's interesting, because when you said my brain, I was thinking, Yeah, but I, I, I do it, like, through my body. And so I process it that way. If I'm thinking about something, I'm not, I don't, it's not that I don't think about it. And often it comes up, you know, when I'm going to sleep at night, or some really inconvenient time. But as far as letting it like understanding it, I feel like I have to understand things way more on a physical level for me to let let it go or to understand I don't want to feel like that again, or push someone's energy away from me, it all starts and ends there. I mean, obviously, my brain is active, and I'm thinking about it and making conscious choices. I'm not someone who doesn't want to have access to that, but it's a lot of that kind of processing for me and I I feel like I'm playing catch up with that. Because for so long, I didn't process anything and I talked incessantly about stuff and I would I was I would just, I would just obsess about the person or the thing or the person and the thing. And I would try to understand it a million ways. But it never worked. And also it never changed. And I Yeah, and I just got really tired of that. I think I cut people out way too quickly but also not at all. It also That's something I've been thinking about oh, my are my I was talking to a friend the other day, and she was at honestly really bothered me, I'm going to be vulnerable. And then I'm going to say anyway, but I was talking, I haven't seen her for a long time. And I was like, Oh, would you do last weekend and she's like, Oh, I was here with, you know, all these people who went to college with, and I'm not friends with them anymore. And a lot of them actually went to high school too. And, but I was like, Oh, I haven't seen you in so long. And like you're hanging out with them. And I, but then I asked her questions about it. And I wasn't jealous at all, like, a couple of years ago, maybe like 10 years ago, eight years ago, whatever I would have been, it would have been like a gut punch. But I was like, what would I be even talking to these people about? And, and I tried to stay with myself in that, because I've lost a ton of friends over the last seven years, like so many. And not because anything happened just because I I've said this on the podcast, I just kind of stopped engaging. And people really, I really realized that a lot of them are one way streets. And I just don't, number one have the energy but also doesn't feel good. But I just was like, what is that I don't want to be someone who's naive and not self aware. And I obviously take accountability for when I make mistakes. I tried to as much as possible. It wasn't anything like that. It was more just like what is what is that like, so if I'm not staying the same, that's my narrative, which could be right or wrong. But if I'm not, it feels like to me if I'm not staying the same, or if I because I'm not like them, then that there's no interest in keeping up the connection. And I've, I've never been like them. But it just made me realize that that doesn't feel great.

It's funny, something that I think you're you're touching on that I've been thinking about a lot is conditional relationships. And it's like, it is really tough. If you're like, I don't if, like us being friends means like, I have to do all the work, and I'm not allowed to change, then I can't, then I can't do that. You know, like, that's those are conditions I can't agree to, you know, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't suck. And it doesn't mean it doesn't suck to like, be like, you know, odd man out, you know, like, that's something, you know, when this probably doesn't happen to you. But I think it won't surprise you that it happens to me, you know, when everybody is obsessed with someone and you hate them. And that makes me crazy. And I don't mean celebrities, I mean within like a friend group that happens to weigh more. And I'm just like, I don't and I don't understand why it makes me crazy. But I'm like, what I think the thing is, is like, I don't think anybody likes to be left out. Even if you're not choosing that, even if you don't choose to be friends with those people. Like it just hurts to be left out. And so like when everybody's like, Oh my God, they're amazing. They're so smart. They're so this their data? And I'm like, what, like, are we talking about the same person? You know, like, essentially what I'm upset about is not that like my friends, like love this person and I don't or whatever, you know, it's not that it's more like I feel left out. I'm like I want in on the party that is this person. You know, like, it's, it's more you for me like dealing with the feelings of being left out that it just like, doesn't feel good, no matter how you slice it. Or even if you've chosen it, like I'm going to leave myself out of this, you know,

yeah, I for me, it's less. It definitely maybe has a it's less that and more. No, it doesn't feel good to be left out. But it's less feeling left out at this point and more like I don't sorry, I'm not crying. I just had something in my throat. I just to clarify, clarify. I feel like it's made me question my judgment in or maybe just look back and be like, you've really thought these people were like your people. And that that's what is weird to me, because it's not Oh, yeah. Like it's me being like you were convinced that these were amazing friends that you were going to be friends forever. That guy's really great solid. Because for me, my family felt really dysfunctional, even if it wasn't by other people's standards. And so my friends were always the place that I went to, you know, feel safe. And I did and I think I think what happened is I I heard you say this in waste as this that you're always really surprised that I wasn't like hanging out, you know, with certain kinds of people. But I think I chose a lot of people that felt really safe to me. But also in that I don't align with them on like, most things. Yeah, all times.

That's so that's really interesting. I think that's something I haven't understood. Like, I've obviously known that you've moved on from a lot of old friendships and like, since we became friends, like, um, uh, you know, I'm aware of that theme in your life, you know, I don't think I think I had understood it more as you felt maybe not seen or you had outgrown these people. I don't think I realized that there wasn't the the element of like, Oh, I like I really thought we were ride or die. And apparently, that was one sided, you know, that I knew that they felt one sided in terms of energy and effort. But I don't think I think I had missed that you may be felt. This is a strong word, but like, discarded someone Oh,

that is 1,000% not a strong word. That is exactly how I feel it's not left out. It's discarded. 100% Because which fucking sucks when a friend of mine called me the other day. And he I've known him since I was like, very young. And, and I haven't seen him in a long time. And he talked the entire time. And then, like, the very last minute was like, how are you? And I started to answer. And he obviously was not engaged with anything I was saying. And then two minutes later, the conversation was over. And I was just like, this is, this is my issue right here. It's like, I know that I was a flawed person, obviously, in my teens and 20s. You know, I know that I probably processed too much with friends, where I didn't need to, obviously, we all had bullshit going on. But what I do also know is that I constantly would call with check in would make sure like, would try to keep the relationship intact and what I, this is exactly what the problem is. Because when I stopped doing that, as at first an experiment, but also just survival after having a baby being like, I have a business I have a baby, newly married, I'm back in this country that I'm fucking hate most of the time. And I'm scared and I just need to, like, not be holding on to things like this. And when know when, like, 90% of those people just stopped engaging with me. I was like, Wow, that's good to know. Like, yeah, oh, thank you. I'm so and of course, shit happens. And of course, but it really has, like jogged it has like, triggered a lot of memories of being younger and being like, Oh, these three girls were four best friends with these three girls like, they understand each other differently. And I always felt not left out, but always just felt so like different even though we all had different lives. There was like some language I wasn't speaking. And, and I don't know, and I still don't speak it. And so it's like everybody's agreed upon, like these types of, I don't know. Yeah, I think I'm like, too dark sometimes, too. You know, like, I think I'm just too dark.

I don't know. I don't think you're too dark. I feel for the for that crowd. I think that you're I think you're, I mean, it sounds like you were probably never a fit with no,

I wasn't. That's it? Yeah,

I was never. And you, I think you blame yourself like you were too much. But really, like, they were never enough. You know? And for whatever reason, like, I think you said something really revealing that they seemed safe. And so I think you put this value on them that they were like, better than you and somebody and like did I thought they were more together than me.

I don't honestly anymore. But when I was younger, I definitely did. I was like, they're smarter than I so they're more together? Of course.

Yes. Yeah. So obviously, as an adult, and as you've like, healed those beliefs about yourself, you know, like they wouldn't, you wouldn't be in resonance with them and like at all, and like, I feel that way a little bit with some of my old college friends. And I've talked to you about that in terms of like, you know, I sort of tried to and it's not like, you know, like, it's not like anything's happened, but like, I have a group that it's like the four of us and three of them have a lot more in common than I'm the outlier. And it it is always interesting when you start you know, asking for I think more of your needs to be met or for you to be seen. Like, it's all fun and games until like, often you have demands you know, and I think for Were you like what you saw is like, exactly when you needed a return on your investment that you had put into the bank of friendship, look at how little that they could give you back. Like when you're like, I'm newly married, I've had a baby, I'm back in the country, you know, like, that is all very fair, legitimate shit that people should be able to show up and go. And and the thing is, is I don't think I think you're you're not hard on people, but I think you have high standards, but I don't think that they're unrealistic. And all of that is very valid shit that if if you're friends with someone, ideally that would occur to you like, Oh my God, I didn't think about the fact that not only she just had a baby, she also just got married, she also just come back here, I need to check on her, you know, like, all of that, I think in friendship and things should be pretty commonplace. But like, it does seem to get it does seem hard. And I think that, like something I've been noticing in friendships too, is like when push comes to shove, like when you say like, this hurt my feelings, or I didn't love that. Like, I didn't love this, like, a lot of shit falls apart.

A lot of people are like, sorry, then gotta go because people don't love comp or

shame spiral. Totally. It's either don't want to deal with it either. Will that you know, sucks for you? Or it's like, well, it because of my fear base, blah, blah, blah. And my struggle I eat. And it's like, none of that is an apology. None of that none of that is reflecting to me that you hurt me in some way. All of that is you excusing the way that you acted? You know? Yeah. And it's made me think about I was listening to stay sexy and don't get murdered. The book that Giorgio heartstart and Karen Kogarah wrote from my favorite murder, and y'all it's not about murder. It's it really incredible book they've written and it's really interesting. And granted, I'm a fan of the podcast. I feel weird about liking True Crime these days. It feels really unethical. But anyway, that's for another day. Um, ooh, pod topic, ethic. Yeah. Um, so what Karen was talking about, I really identify with Karen, I feel so similar to her, I'm just something else. But that's fine. I know. It's funny, because she doesn't really talk about but then. So she was talking about, like, she would come into therapy and be like, in blah, blah, blah, and, um, you know, this person and did it at a enter therapist was like, how, what, how big? How many close friends? Do you have? Like, what is your close circle? And she was like, I don't know, like, 2030 people, and our therapists are like, way too many. You know, and was like, you get five, like, most people have one to five, really, you know, is their inner circle. And those are like, the only people you go to about, like big things about yourself, you know, and like, broke down sort of the circle, like, of intimacy, you know, like the, the rings of intimacy, sort of an access to yourself. And I was thinking about that. And I was thinking about how often to especially like, in long term relationships, and friendships and things like that, that, like, we forget that, like, these people shouldn't have that access or influence anymore. But we give it to them just because of time. You know? And like,

you mean time, like, we've already invested the time. What do you mean?

Yeah, and but yeah, it's like, who cares? If you've been friends, 20 years, you know, it's like, if you really in granted, you're in a different situation than me and that, like, you know, like, I'm moved around a lot. Like I don't, I don't really have that x, that much access to anyone I knew really before high school, you know, like, it's real tough to keep up friendships when, you know, like, you're 10 and you've moved, live abroad. And at some point, you're just like, we can quit doing this, you know, it's just like, total, we're seeing each other maybe once a year. It's just silly, but um, you know, that you have much more of these people that like you're you really came up with, you know, like that is, I think that that's really common for people. And also, like, I think most of us are not looking to make our lives more difficult. And like the pressure of like, don't be an outsider or don't like, don't make waves and stuff can be really difficult. Like I experienced it more like in my building where like, some of my neighbors are like, in some I don't, and I'm just like, do we all like, do we all have to hang out? Like, can't we just like, be adults and like forge relationships with some and not with others? And you know, it all becomes very high school and I'm like, we get to choose like when we're not really actively choosing the people in our life. It seems like we go awry.

Well, I was thinking today when I was moving stuff, like my BOD I was like, Huh? I and this is not, by the way, in any way meant to be like some egotistical moment of like, oh, Nina, you're just special because like that is my pet peeve in life. Like, it's not that I'm just like, I, I'm not, I don't think I'm palatable for a lot of people, I don't think I'm easily easy to understand for a lot of people and that I now realize is, like, a huge strength in of mine of just being, you know, I I have depth and I'm not saying that these people don't have depth necessarily, but I think they're, they understand each other it differently. And I think that's something that's always been a challenge for me to own is like you don't have to be digestible, you don't have to be some to fit into something that that's not and you and even if that that's, by the way, like starting to play this role of the badass or the whatever, right that I had been cast as so that I could still be, I could still fit into something it just was different than everybody else, right? Like, oh, she's like, she's a little bit off the rails or she's funny, or she's, you know, kooky or crazy or whatever it was, but it was still like they, I felt like, they still cast me as something or I still cast myself as that. And now I'm like, I'm I am who I am like, and I'm, I've told you this before, and I might have even said it on the podcast. But when an old friend was like, you want to buy a house, and I'm like, I'm almost 40 years old. Did you think I was just gonna be like, you know, like rudderless? Is that the word like, Yeah, and just like this, this cookie like New York girl, like just went out all night. And I mean, is that really what you thought it was going to be for the rest of my life?

But no, have you been that you haven't been that in a long time sometimes also, like, to me that's so telling of where they want you to be exactly how they want. You. It's like, and it's not even relevant to you for 10 plus years. I

know. And I know, like, I think what I've learned is over the past, what I've really like, started to close the book on is, none of this is sad or confusing to me anymore. It's more feels empowering of like, and that feels good. Because it's been a challenge over the last couple of years, to be honest of like, Hmm, what did I do? What did this what happened? What's confusing, blah, blah. And now I feel like I've really just, I'm so I've moved on, and I feel good about that. Like, I don't, don't yeah, be in those rooms. And not because I feel angry. One of the things I want you to work on?

Well, I feel like I'm getting there. And Italy was really good for me in that respect. But like I think something I fear and it's related more to my dad's death of just like fear of loss, you know, and I get, like, I can definitely be an emotional hoarder and be like, Will it's better to like, have these friends I don't like totally like, you don't feel seen by or enjoy. Like, they're like I can I definitely have to be vigilant with myself about like, Good enough is often like a way of harming yourself versus just reckoning with your feelings of loss or being alone.

Yeah, I feel like that's coming up so much for you. Like just, you know, do you have a lot of people in your life that you don't really like?

Yeah, you know what I mean? They won't let me go. Well, it's

not up to them.

I would think it's it's also i It's not like the amount I get steamrolled.

But you can't let them and I know that sounds dismissive, but it's not. It's it's like,

you know what, though, the next time is happening. I'm FaceTiming. You and my therapist, and I'm being like, Watch this shit. What else would y'all do? You would cave you know, like, I will. And that's what I'm seeing, like, in a bigger way, too, is just like, certain dynamic is something I've been really guilty of, and is because also to my fucking brain. I like to win. And I like to figure out how to game things. So if somebody is really prone to steamrolling me, I'm like, I'm gonna figure out what makes it stop rather than just going. This is a dynamic that doesn't work for me. How do they see you know, give me an example. This morning, for example, someone had texted me and said, Are you are you free to grab a coffee? I want to show you something and I said, No, I've got calls. And it continued and continued well then I'm going to FaceTime you because I want to show you this that you know, like it I kept being like, No, I have things to do. I've also just gotten back into the country, and that was not being heard and then like As I'm still saying, No, my, my the FaceTime is going off on my phone.

And did you answer? Yeah,

I mean, like, don't answer. But then it but that feels like a game, but it's not you.

You said no. And if someone keeps pushing in the door, you don't open it. You know what I mean? Like, just decline the call and be like, I'm busy. Period. Like, yeah, because that they don't take me shit happens to me because they don't take you seriously. And that really drives me crazy because you're I've we've had this conversation you're a very serious person. But people don't take you seriously sometimes not all the time, but in an eye. And why is that? Why don't people believe you when you say no?

Well, I mean, my friend Giuliana said to me years ago and gave me this little more so when she's like, You don't trust her? No. And I was like, Yeah, it's true sometimes. But I think for some people is well, it's it is a game to them. So it's, it's fun. It's fun to get me to crack, you know, like, the duty I think take my boundaries and like kind of seriousness as a challenge. Yeah,

I agree with that. Which I think is really really shitty, by the way.

Yeah, it really honestly, it is. And it really should it eroded a few relationships, because I'm just like, you're not hearing me like, this isn't fun to me. Like it's not a joke to me like it? It doesn't. You know, it? It doesn't feel good. You know, like, it feels very dismissive i

Yeah, it is. And that's why I'm saying like, I, like you were saying before, access is a huge thing. If I, if I don't, if I remove the access, you just don't get in, it's not a game. It's just, I'm removing the access period, like, I'm just not going to answer or I'm just not going to pick up your phone call, or I'm not going to call you back not because I'm I think it all has to do so much. I shouldn't say all so much has to do with your intention and how you feel it. Right. Like if you know that you're not being cruel, or manipulative or playing into some sort of childish game, that it really doesn't matter what they think. And I don't mean that as like other people's feelings don't matter. But if you're the one being like, I'm not picking up the call, I just told you I was busy. But you're not like, I'm gonna win, you know, that's different. And it lands different, even if people don't realize it at first.

I don't know. Because I mean, I think for me, that a lot of people, I mean, just speaking to like what we're talking about earlier with conditional I had a lot of times when I've really asserted myself, the relationships ended

because they need to end because they need to end you should not be trying to keep friendships.

i But i Oh, that's that's I don't know, I saw

what you mean. Important to me. Yes. But if people respect you, they're not going to steamroll you. I'm sorry. That's ridiculous. Like, yeah, I agree. You know, like, you shouldn't be the one holding it up. What's happening is like, you're the foundation, and you're holding things up literally, with your bare hands. And when you go to be like, hey, guys actually need a break? I'm going to remove this hand for a minute. So things are going to be wobbly there. What it just crashes down, then yeah, that thing was not built on anything really firm and to begin with?

Well, I also think that it's like, often was tougher when they're not working or whatever. Like, it's painful. So like, lots of times, I think it's easy, or I don't know, like, I think sometimes, like when I would want to maybe, because some of these are people that I don't think are bad, I would like to keep my relationship with them. But I would like for the relationship to shift, you know, or, and I'm, and I'm like, I'm down for that to be a conversation. You know what I mean? I think it is on both sides. I think that it's become I was talking to my friend Megan, actually. And she was like, Yeah, I don't think you've had that many people where you did have that level of trust that if you like that they would do the work with you, they would do the repair work with you. And that's been something I've been thinking about in terms of forming new relationships is like, I want to be in relationship with people that are both willing to do the repair work. But like, it does suck when you see like, wow, like we've been friends a long time. And when I tell you that that aspect of you sucks. You don't care, you know, like,

or if it just doesn't feel good for me. Like it doesn't have to be they don't have to change that thing. But they have to they if they don't have to do anything in the friendship. If they're not aware that that bothers you or it hurts you or doesn't feel good to you, then that's a problem. You know, and if someone were to say that to you. Do you feel pretty open to feedback as far as like people being Like, I don't like when you do this?

I think so. Yeah. Okay. I think like, if people are like, this doesn't feel good or something like that. Yeah, I mean, I think if it's, um, I would think I'm open to feedback if it's delivered in a, I don't know, mindful or sensitive way or something like, yeah, you know, like, I think sometimes people think they're giving feedback or something, but it's not direct, or it's not spelled out, you know. And that also, too, I also think people often when I'm, when I do express my feelings, like, rather than giving me any clue, they've heard that they just immediately are like, Well, you did it, or whatever. And that, that I'm less open to as well. I'm like, I It's hard to hear that. Like, it's hard to hear anybody if you don't feel like you've been heard, you know? Yeah. So I think I'm open to hearing it as if I feel like, there's that exchange. If I feel like you hear me, then I'm happy to hear you. You know. And I bet I think it has been hard with some of these relationships that I'm like, I just think that it's it's, I think some people that were really important to me, some of what it is, is I don't know that the the relationships have to go necessarily, but they just can't be as important as they once were, you know, but it's more like people have been demoted.

Well, I also think you are something you talk about a lot, or often or sometimes is not, is being validated, right, like and not feeling heard or validated. And I think that that you obviously aren't looking for it, or I don't think you're looking for it in an unhealthy way. But if you're not getting it from your friendships, then they that's it how, how much time or an energy, are they worse, you know, and it's not like solely for that. But you're big on validating people, I think, and you're big on recognizing people and supporting them. And that's a huge, you know, kind of pillar for you. And it's everyone's not the same, of course, but I think that's that's an important piece of relationships for you. Second part of that is I think you're making room for so much other, you know, so many other things in your life, and that it one does not. I'm sorry, there's just not enough room for all of it. There's just not

Yeah, I think something that's like nobody's fault. But definitely, like it took until 42 to experience is I feel really left behind by a lot of friends. It took until now, you know, like in terms of being single not having kids and stuff like that. And that's no one's fault and stuff. But people still want an access to me that maybe it's like, it's no one's fault. No one's doing anything wrong. But it's not necessarily reciprocal.

How do you feel like you were left behind? Or have you feel like you've been?

I mean, like, a lot of weekends, you know, it's like, I've got to come up with stuff to do, but everybody's with their partner. Yeah. And, but then, like, in this is my frustration. They're busy on the weekend. So even if I, you know, who wants to do something where they're owed what we're doing that Baba, but then I feel like sometimes it's like, all this pressure to do stuff during the week or whatever. And it's just like, I think it's just tough to find people where it really does feel like a two way street. In terms of like, awareness.

Yeah. Because what's convenient for them is not necessarily enjoyable or convenient for you.

Yeah. And it's that sort of stuff. And me being a little bit, I think, more honest, and like with certain friends of like, Hey, you sort of forget me on the weekend, and then, you know, Monday or write on me about, like, when we're hanging out, like, that doesn't feel good. And she was like, Oh my God, you're right. I'm sorry. I'll be aware of that. You know, and I'm like, that's cool. Like, yay, let's do more of that in life, you know? Yeah.

Yeah, I think it's really important to be I have one of my really good friends here is single and she is younger than me but I don't think of that I think more of like her being single and I try to be really sensitive about you know, I mean, I do invite her to our house because like the reality is I'm just like not going to a bar you know, at this stage of life, but maybe that's not if that's not fun for her. She doesn't have to come over right you know what I mean? But I do try to think about like, meeting her like, maybe we could go for coffee after this or, or if you want to come over here we can hang out outside. I there something but not assuming two things. Number one that she, like, can hang out whatever. Because that is something with single people that I think people really forgot. It's like, they're not you're like in case of emergency or in case of like, you want to hang out on a whim person. That's not Yeah, that's not cool. Or, you know, feeling kind of scratching an itch person, you know what I mean? You have to prioritize people and be sensitive that they're, you know, that, like, we can do look a lot different for them.

Yeah, I mean, I think to me, like for me as well, like, like, it's not just the, the convenience, or like, the time or feeling. Sort of like you're on the exactly like in case of emergency. But it would also be like, if your friend was like, Hey, wanna hang the Saturday and you're like, Saturdays are family time, you know? And I'm like, you can just say no,

oh, that oh, that happens. Oh, yeah, that's icky. Like that, to me feels that, to me feels like that feels really insensitive, and also kind of kind of mean,

that's the shit that I'm just like, I've had it. I've just had it. I'm not nice. And yeah, and I think it's an unnecessary having having had it, you know what I mean? Yeah, um, but I just want to clarify that some of the, like, what I'm dealing with, with, you know, we're, like, got it, where you're, you're like, wow, you know, and that's what I think I've just been sort of noticing is like, who, who's kind of in what camp and what feels good and what doesn't? And being really aware of just like, where if, like, really settled and sold myself short? And like, why, you know, like, and what are you hanging on to that? Like, what is the value for you? And I, you know, I'm a pretty self aware, self connected person, I clean house pretty regularly in that regard. And I still think it can be sort of, I don't know, sobering when you're like, oh, shit, there's always work to be done. Oh, yeah. There's always stuff you can adjust if you want to feel good in your life, you know? Oh,

yeah. The other thing we both been kicking around is work stuff.

Yeah, yeah. Always that. Yeah. I don't know what I want to be when. I mean, I'm ready to set fire to my I mean, I don't know what I want to do. But I, I know, some things I want to do that are kind of big. And I know other things I don't want to do. And I'm trying to make myself not run into. And I can elaborate on those things in a second. But I also have very, like practical shit, I need to like, tend to that I'm like, Anna, don't distract yourself. And like the practical I have some health stuff I need to deal with, I have some apartment stuff I need to deal with. I'm like, You got to have your month away to have your midlife crisis and figure out what you want to be when you grow up. And now it's time to come back and clean up some of your mass in order to make space for that stuff. But man, the temptation to just run and start some new stuff

I'm forcing myself not to right now. And it finally feels really good to not because I am the queen of, of new idea, new thing new, like starting anything hobby, blah, blah, whatever it is, but like, often making a business related. And I'm just not I have an idea that's sitting there and I'm letting it sit. And I'm not I will not force it. I am I am actually paring down and focusing on two things right now. And those two things alone. And I want to do them well. And if there's a third thing that happens that I you know, I still don't, I'm not clear on then so be it. But I just have realized so much that I love to stress myself out. And and pretend it's not that it's not creative, not that it's not satisfying in certain ways. But like, it's also a way I avoid so much and somehow, like make myself feel bad because I create all this world in which this thing needs to happen. You've seen me do it multiple times. Now working with me where I'm like this is going to happen or that's going to happen. And then all of my effort goes into thinking about that and it just is for and then I'm like do I even want that actually no, I don't want that. And I think part of that's just experimentation and figuring yourself out in business and in life, but I've just come to this realization of like, Okay, put, put the frickin brakes on pump the brakes. What do you want to do with things you're already doing? Because you? And can you perhaps, maybe just take some classes in that realm? Or, Yeah, put your head down in that way and grow it and commit to it and not have to reinvent the wheel every five fucking minutes?

Well, I think you have this interesting tension where you don't like to waste your time. But you want to evolve, you know, and I think to evolve, you have to waste a lot of time. Yeah, you know, where it feels like that. It feels like you're wasting time. But really, it's like learning what? The reality of something right? You know, it's like, oh, actually doing that is? Oh, yeah. It's like, oh, and I don't like, yeah, good to know. Jenna. I was. I mean, I was so fucking obsessed with magazines. It was like, I went to work at me to all my magazines. And then the day one of my internship at Jane magazine, I was like, I do not I

went to one one interview at a Lor and the woman was like, a great a con. And I was like, I don't actually like magazines. And she was like, asking me what the storyboards and I was like, I have no idea what you're talking about. She's like, you don't even know what this is. And I was like, I'm 17. But anyway, yeah, totally. Yeah. Not a waste of time, though.

Yeah, your way Exactly. But I think that you're really I have a question for you about your career because I find sometimes that like the the tension or the like, you know, when when when Nina's doesn't feel good about her career, like she's very unsettled, like you're very Oh, it makes you very introspective. Like, you're, it's like, You're like an animal that like can't get comfortable. You know, it's like, she gets up she circles a comb. sigh gets up and you're like, what is wrong here? Your pup like what's wrong? You know?

Thank you for that visual. You're not even in my house. Go ahead.

But I hate that. I'm curious for you. Like, what? Like, because you you like what? Like,

I love what I do right now.

What is it you think? Like, isn't sad it? Like? Why do you think it bothers you on such a like a deeper it seems to bother you does on a deeper level? What do you think that deeper level is? Is it like a dissatisfaction? Is it a fear about the future? Like, what is what is that for you? Because I think you really you love what you do? You know, like you you love reading for people? I think you love doing movement? I think maybe for you, it's been tricky to figure out how to really, like bring movement to people in a way that feels that I have really in alignment with who you are.

Figure it out. Yeah.

Yeah. Do you think that some of the unrest because it's like,

most of the unrest, but because and that's what I that's the that's the thing I'm putting on hold, which is frustrating because it at heart started, you're the most interested in? Well, not necessarily, but it is what I love, like, personally, the most, right, like, I took a page out of your book. Well, you know, I mean, you know that you invented courses, but it's like,

no, but I am a nerd for life. Like, I signed up for this.

So I'm like, my fucking head's gonna explode. But I really enjoy that nerd. whatever those are.

Sunday morning, my God, you know, it was like you, you're doing something on Sunday mornings, I was like, I know, I'm just as surprised as you

are crazy. But I I'm very sensitive to something that I think is kind of common in areas too, is like, the, these like hot flashes, of like, you have a creative idea, I'm going to do something and I'm going to start something and start something. And I think that I'm so conscious of not finishing things, because I don't I used to do that a lot in my life. And I really want to kind of see things through at this point in my life, but I also want them to be right and to be aligned and to grow and to not be stagnant because that doesn't help anyone and blah, blah, blah. I have this long list of rules that nobody gave me I just have made up. And the movement piece does really bugged me because I haven't figured it out. And it's not about being right but it's just about questioning, like how could this thing that I know that I'm really good at honestly and love? How come I haven't figured out like the way to communicate it in a way that feels real. And that lands the way I want it to land and is you know all of these things and again, maybe my expectations are too high. The stuff with the Reading, which really is, like I've said to you lately, like, I've really steered away from the word coach for my entire career. But that's really what I do. I read, but I, it's more of coaching, you know, I see people regularly, I now like implementing these methods that I know and are like, practical and rooted in like, in actual science and things that are not I'm not pretending to be a therapist or do anything like that. But they're just I'm blend I do blend practical and mystical. And I've never really understood myself enough to know how to communicate that without feeling like cheesy about it. So I feel like I've I've really, once I stepped back and was able to see clearly I've kind of gotten that. And I'm now just focusing on working the way I work. And I feel really good about that, that was really bugging me for a while too, because I was like, I'm doing this, but like, I'm not a reader reader. Like, I'm not just doing one off readings. And that and I just couldn't find, like what I was comfortable with. And now I feel like I have, so that feels very good to kind of settle into, but the movement stuff is bothering me because I'm like, why can I figure this fucking thing out?

I get that because that's how I feel about art and creativity. Like how can I be as creative as I am love art as much as I do? And I can't really figure out a way to make that more of my work. You know, like, yeah, I don't I really do. I feel you on that of like, How can something be so important and so, so intuitive in a lot of ways, you know, and it feel but it's like, when I go to, like, articulated or really write something like a plan down or what, it's a double, you know, like, I don't, I can't, like give language to things or the only representation I see is all shit. I would rather die than do that. You know exactly. Which I guess I could put my big reveal on here is that I'm going to retire from reading Tarot and 2023. I'm going to retire from one on ones and reading in 2020. Are

you still gonna do that? You're still going to do the recorded ones though. Right?

I am. I think I'm gonna do the recorded readings because they've still made me not zero higher, because you're not, but I kind of am like, if you want to book me one on one, you've got a couple months friends. Because that's so it's the best. I'm over the business. Yeah, I'm over. Like, you know, and that's something that is funny. Because it's like, you know, I look at Nina's business, and it does not run like mine. And it's funny, they like, you know, that I'm like, Yeah, I could like, see people week to week link if, you know, I don't know, like if people behaved but then I don't know, I feel like it's something where I can work really hard. And I can be very hard headed. And I've worked really hard to build a successful Tarot business that you know what? I haven't enjoyed it much the whole time. And really, and yet I Yeah. And I kept being like, any day this will pay you. I'm really good at bolstering my own spirits and good because I'm like, I refuse to be uncomfortable in my life. I refuse to be unhappy. But that also keeps me from changing things sometimes that don't make me happy. Yeah. You know, like, and I think sometimes too, like, if you are spiritual, you do meditate. Like, if you're doing all the things that anyone's gonna tell you to do when you say I'm like, I'm not happy, or I'm anxious or whatever. When you've been at that for a long time, the game changes and it gets harder to figure out what's going on with you, you know, and that's been part of my, I'm like, I know, I like I know that when I first like fell in love with Tarot. Like, I know, that was very real. And I know I've left a very successful career for a reason, all of that stuff, but the business of it, the reality of it, the marketing yourself constantly the like, the things, the only ways I was able to make it really financially viable for myself. Like, I don't enjoy, I don't like, you know, I've burnt out. And it's not so much the reading for people, but like that, for me was always a very small part of my business. I made much more money, teaching and doing events and doing private parties and all that sort of stuff. And it's just, yeah, I'm just I'm done the ones though, you know, and I want to I think I want to evolve and I think I've always wanted to put more of my own ideas and content and things like that out there. And I think, taro and mysticism and witchiness was like, also this beautiful shield and crutch for me to hide behind for a while that gave me like made me feel braver to do some of that stuff. And now it's like, it's time I can just Be nice. Yeah, I don't. Yeah. Be. And I think you're good at that, like in terms of you're like, yeah, like, I think you put Nina first, not like me and the reader.

I've never I've never had that identity. That's why I was confused. And that's exactly why the movement stuff is. Well, that's not the only reason but that's one of the things that's really tripped me up is I don't have that identity. And I never did. And that's why even when I would do stuff for like, free people and things where you have to be really, you know, in it, it just, I was I had to be me, I couldn't be like the yoga teacher or like, that just never ever, ever, ever landed for me felt right felt ethical felt like any of it. I just it just it and I know that I can be very stubborn. And it's not about that. It's just with everything in my being it feels wrong to to present, yeah, present like that.

Well, I also made this connection once when a client like lost her shit on me a couple months ago, where I was like, a lot of taro, a lot of this business is like, reenacting drama for me. And I think that of like, showing up to be sincere and tell people think, you know, like, and then them like, uncorking on me, you know, and stuff. And I was just like, I don't think it's like, I think I've just tried to make something work. That doesn't work for me. Yeah. You know, and like, that's it. And I think accepting that, and

it's so awesome. It's so awesome. I mean, reading regularly, I tell you about the I sent you the recorded reading the email. Yeah. I could never read one offs for people I couldn't. Because it's the expectations are through the roof for something that like, like the questions people ask. And Anna knows this way more than I do. Like, my business has always been, I meet with somebody. And then we decide on of like, that we're working together. And then we work on things. And we use the Tarot and other things, but we're, that's it to come to someone and be like, will I find love? And it's like, yeah, that is, how could you not burn out on that? But also like, how, how is that? Like, how could that be real at a certain point, and I'm not saying that there are readers that like our lifetime readers, or mediums or whoever, like power to you, as long as you're actually rooted in something real? And have, you know, a moral compass, but I just feel like, that's so not your long game at all.

Yeah, well, it's funny because like, you know, like, obviously, being the, the person in it, like, I get how I ended up where I am, in the sense of, I really, I like, I really like helping people get where they want to know, you know, and if I can help do that I'm more than happy to do so, you know, whether that's sharing insight, or helping you strategize, or, you know, supporting in some way, like, I'm really happy to do that. And it feels really good. To me, that feels good as work for me, you know. But yeah, there's so much stuff that comes with Tarot, and being a reader, if you are sort of trying to work in the traditional hourly model, or whatever. That is just like, just brain melting the amount, like the expectation, or the delusion, and I don't really mean this to like, you know, I also have tons of clients that I absolutely love and adore and are wonderful people who've done so much in their life. You know, of course, I just, it's it kind of just reminds me when I was working at this television network, and I was like, so frustrated because I felt really set up all the time. And my friend was like, You're, it's just not a fit. You know, she's like, you, like, not that you're wrong, but like, you're you're not seeing that, like, you don't you don't fit you don't fit with their culture like them. The kids like yeah, I was like, hired in this very technical position. But every time I had to, like kind of give them news, like that's not going to work or this, you know, they were like, you know, like bombing us out, try again, but tell us this time it'll work and I was like, I can't do that though. Like that's not like I felt like I'm very villainized you know, constantly and I was like I'm being villainized for like what is my expertise? I feel a bit that way and Terrell is it is it's often in an hourly format. That's often how I'm being like, we value we want your insight but make sure it's the insight we want course like even worse, and like with parties, people being like party to hire you for this For this party, but good vibes only. And I'm like, listen, it's not even me. Like taro doesn't agree to that. And, like, I can't control that, like, Do you know how many people at parties have asked me really wild fucking shit, you know, like, because it is where people are going to act up there. Like, we've had a few drinks. I don't know, this woman, she's not gonna, like, come back. And that's when someone literally has, you know, the people who have asked me should I get a divorce? I mean, I'm like, girl, you don't know me? You know? Like, what if I've been married 12 times, which, you know, like, Who gives a shit, but also like, it's just sort of wild to me sometimes. You know, I don't know how to separate from like, kind of just like the worry of I'm like, Oh, my God, this poor woman who's like asking a tarot reader at this party. Like if she should get divorced, like, I'm worried about?

Yeah, that's a huge, that's a huge, huge, huge, huge deal. Like, you can't, you can't just disconnect from the Yeah, and it's not about taking responsibility for everybody all the time, because that's not healthy either. But, you know, anyway, I think that that's really awesome that you're doing that you're just kind of following, you know, talking the talk walking the walk.

Yeah. And who knows, maybe it'll be temporary. Maybe it's like, I mean, Italy was a bit of an experiment, how do I feel with you know, a month off of reading and I did miss it a little bit. And I had some recorded readings, that I was like, oh, you know what, I wasn't going to do them until October, October, but let me go ahead and do it, you know. But, and it was also fun, like reading for people I met in Italy, like, just because it was for fun. And because I wanted to and I offered you know, like, that's something to that's been a blessing for me, career wise, is sometimes things that, that I feel the strong, the most strongly about and love the most like photography. For me, it was a huge lesson. Like, when I went to a very, you know, I worked really hard to get into a really good art school and surprise, I don't want to do that for a living, you know, often for me, what I really love and feel passionate about, like, can't be my work. I need to keep it pure for me, you know, but it's often thinking of like, what are what are other things that are like work, things that you can extract from, you know, so that's what I'm, I'm trying to be in the soup of, like, I don't know what the answer is. I don't know what's next for me. And I am freaked out in terms of income and things like that. But I also think that money's like, money always has away from me of figuring, like, I always figure out how to make an income, you know, like, so. I can't use that as an excuse to not do the exploratory work. You know,

who can't wait for next month's check in. Doo doo doo most was fun.

What are ya and tell us what y'all are marinating. Yeah, what's coming up for you? I was, you know, like, we both need and I only ever want to be in our own soup for so long for sure. So tell us,

your give us your deeds.

Yeah, it supersedes it, after all.

All right, everyone will talk to you next

time. Bye.

That's all for today's episode.

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