1 00:00:02,971 --> 00:00:06,481 Eddie: Welcome to episode 29 of the web joy podcast. 2 00:00:06,781 --> 00:00:07,891 I'm your host Eddie. 3 00:00:08,221 --> 00:00:12,391 In this podcast, we interview guests about their origin story and what 4 00:00:12,391 --> 00:00:16,321 makes them excited and joyful to be part of the tech community. 5 00:00:16,621 --> 00:00:18,451 I hope you enjoy today's episode. 6 00:00:18,661 --> 00:00:21,781 Please just give a girl a chance with Amber Shand. 7 00:00:23,395 --> 00:00:26,395 Welcome to another episode of Web Joy. 8 00:00:26,545 --> 00:00:29,095 I'm excited to have Amber with us today. 9 00:00:29,095 --> 00:00:31,075 Amber, say hi to the nice people listening. 10 00:00:31,225 --> 00:00:32,035 Hello everyone. 11 00:00:33,145 --> 00:00:33,685 . Awesome. 12 00:00:33,685 --> 00:00:35,605 Well, thank you for coming on the podcast. 13 00:00:35,905 --> 00:00:38,905 I'd love to take a couple minutes to have you just kind of explain who 14 00:00:38,905 --> 00:00:41,215 you are, what you do, where you work. 15 00:00:41,215 --> 00:00:42,715 You know, a brief intro. 16 00:00:42,885 --> 00:00:43,485 Cool. 17 00:00:43,485 --> 00:00:45,255 Amber: Well, thank you so much for having me. 18 00:00:45,255 --> 00:00:46,605 It's amazing to be here. 19 00:00:46,965 --> 00:00:47,925 So a bit about me. 20 00:00:47,925 --> 00:00:49,215 So my name's Amber. 21 00:00:49,215 --> 00:00:51,645 I come from an economics and accounting degree. 22 00:00:51,975 --> 00:00:55,485 So I actually was learning how to code in my second year of 23 00:00:55,485 --> 00:01:00,135 university when I did a mergers and acquisitions internship in Madrid. 24 00:01:00,255 --> 00:01:02,905 And I realized that finance definitely was not for me. 25 00:01:03,345 --> 00:01:03,785 then? 26 00:01:04,335 --> 00:01:04,815 Yeah. 27 00:01:05,155 --> 00:01:08,725 Went through Coach First Guard, retrained through there in 2020. 28 00:01:08,725 --> 00:01:12,685 During the pandemic, I started taking a lot more seriously, and now I'm 29 00:01:12,685 --> 00:01:14,995 an award-winning front-end engineer. 30 00:01:15,295 --> 00:01:19,765 I also have a podcast called Glowing in Tech, where I co-host alongside Jesse, 31 00:01:19,975 --> 00:01:22,225 where we showcase black women in tech. 32 00:01:22,525 --> 00:01:26,395 Also have a blog@amand.co uk and I think that's it. 33 00:01:27,685 --> 00:01:28,465 Eddie: That's awesome. 34 00:01:28,465 --> 00:01:29,815 Well, it sounds like you've been busy. 35 00:01:29,875 --> 00:01:31,105 Yeah, definitely. 36 00:01:32,565 --> 00:01:36,645 . I think no one would blame you for wanting to shift into tech after dealing 37 00:01:36,645 --> 00:01:38,775 with a merger and an acquisition. 38 00:01:39,225 --> 00:01:40,035 Internship. 39 00:01:40,125 --> 00:01:44,865 Doesn't sound particularly fun, but I guess in the midst of that, 40 00:01:44,895 --> 00:01:46,335 you ended up shifting to tech. 41 00:01:46,395 --> 00:01:47,355 What was it that. 42 00:01:48,365 --> 00:01:51,425 kind of made you think when you realized, this isn't what I want 43 00:01:51,425 --> 00:01:54,995 to do, how did you realize mm-hmm tech is what you wanted to do? 44 00:01:55,415 --> 00:01:55,805 Oh, that's 45 00:01:55,805 --> 00:01:57,005 Amber: such a good question. 46 00:01:57,335 --> 00:02:02,165 I think that at the time there was a lot of really scary news about automation 47 00:02:02,170 --> 00:02:06,270 taking over jobs and how like, You know, professions that we admire, 48 00:02:06,270 --> 00:02:11,340 like lawyers, doctors, surgeons, and all these other well respected roles, 49 00:02:11,640 --> 00:02:16,350 were now g going to be automated by like AI and all these scary things. 50 00:02:16,620 --> 00:02:22,290 And I was like, darling, I don't have time for this . So . So I research 51 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:27,030 into like high in demand skills cuz I wanted to, I just need to be protected. 52 00:02:27,030 --> 00:02:27,120 I. 53 00:02:27,775 --> 00:02:28,315 Darling's. 54 00:02:28,555 --> 00:02:30,445 I don't wanna be a victim of technology. 55 00:02:30,445 --> 00:02:33,865 I want to be like on the side of it, like actually building it. 56 00:02:34,315 --> 00:02:36,235 And then that's how I found about coding and I was like, 57 00:02:36,235 --> 00:02:38,035 what, what is this thing else? 58 00:02:38,035 --> 00:02:40,015 So I was just so confused. 59 00:02:40,015 --> 00:02:42,565 But, um, that's when, we'll code First Girls. 60 00:02:42,565 --> 00:02:46,575 I did the web development course, you know, a cheeky little h email, c s s. 61 00:02:46,980 --> 00:02:48,060 The bare basics. 62 00:02:48,060 --> 00:02:52,380 And I was out here saying that I was a web developer, so when it, I was like, 63 00:02:52,380 --> 00:02:56,400 yes, darling, this coding thing is just, this is what they were talking about 64 00:02:56,740 --> 00:03:01,860 And then when I was applying for rolls, I was like, JavaScript . No 65 00:03:01,860 --> 00:03:06,390 one said anything about that , and, and at the time there wasn't a big. 66 00:03:06,555 --> 00:03:11,595 Like frenzy, I wanna say overreact, but I was just so shocked at like 67 00:03:11,595 --> 00:03:15,105 the huge barrier to entry that there was compared to like finance. 68 00:03:15,105 --> 00:03:17,745 We can say I'm passionate about numbers. 69 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:23,230 And there wasn't necessarily the whole data structures and algorithms interviews 70 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:25,510 proving yourself before landed that role. 71 00:03:25,510 --> 00:03:29,530 Like I didn't have to have like a project list of all the accounts 72 00:03:29,530 --> 00:03:32,890 that I've balanced to prove that, you know, I can be an accountant. 73 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:34,870 So that was just a huge shift. 74 00:03:34,875 --> 00:03:38,530 I just couldn't comprehend the fact that now these interviews were gonna 75 00:03:38,530 --> 00:03:40,210 be super, it's really challenging. 76 00:03:40,540 --> 00:03:44,170 And I kept having that barrier of, oh, but you don't have a computer science. 77 00:03:44,815 --> 00:03:48,805 Why do you wanna do this ? I'm like, please just give a, go a chance. 78 00:03:51,205 --> 00:03:51,535 . . Eddie: Yeah. 79 00:03:51,535 --> 00:03:54,655 I guess how did you, how did you deal with that, right? 80 00:03:54,655 --> 00:03:56,875 Obviously, you ran into this. 81 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,570 Interview type stages that it's intimidating for all of us, right? 82 00:04:01,750 --> 00:04:05,170 No matter if it's been a year or 10 years. 83 00:04:05,170 --> 00:04:05,710 In tech. 84 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:07,810 You obviously made it. 85 00:04:07,810 --> 00:04:09,730 You pushed through , you got the job. 86 00:04:09,910 --> 00:04:11,890 How did you approach that? 87 00:04:11,890 --> 00:04:15,070 What was kind of the thing that kind of ticked over in your mind where you 88 00:04:15,070 --> 00:04:16,410 were like, all right, I can do this. 89 00:04:16,925 --> 00:04:18,075 And, and everything. 90 00:04:18,435 --> 00:04:21,765 Amber: So with Code First Girls, that was a great instruction to 91 00:04:21,765 --> 00:04:23,325 web development as a concept. 92 00:04:23,325 --> 00:04:27,075 And then we also had the Python course, which actually introduced us to the 93 00:04:27,075 --> 00:04:29,955 concept of APIs and things of that region. 94 00:04:30,345 --> 00:04:36,555 But I had no clue what was going on, so I went back to university to finish 95 00:04:36,555 --> 00:04:43,005 off my economics and accounting degree, and then, 20, 20 March the pandemic hit 96 00:04:43,065 --> 00:04:44,385 and I was just like, what is going on? 97 00:04:44,745 --> 00:04:47,025 like I was, I was so in denial. 98 00:04:47,025 --> 00:04:49,545 I was like, to my friends, look darlings, it's going to be fine. 99 00:04:49,935 --> 00:04:53,425 But then I realized I really need to take this coding thing seriously because 100 00:04:53,425 --> 00:04:54,985 I'd been applying for graduate schemes. 101 00:04:55,510 --> 00:04:59,740 From August, 2019 and I kept getting rejected and the only a 102 00:04:59,740 --> 00:05:02,890 few I got through one of them, they were like, you know what? 103 00:05:02,890 --> 00:05:05,530 Don't stress out about, you know, the test. 104 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:10,060 And then it was, I, no one had told me at this point about 105 00:05:10,065 --> 00:05:11,560 data structures and algorithms. 106 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,170 So all I'm seeing is binary research tree. 107 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:15,290 What's this one? 108 00:05:15,290 --> 00:05:15,770 Oh no. 109 00:05:15,870 --> 00:05:16,570 And I'm. 110 00:05:17,245 --> 00:05:23,695 All I know is all I know at this point is basically H M L C S S like, and a 111 00:05:23,695 --> 00:05:28,495 bit of Python, but not to the extent of knowing how to reverse a binary 112 00:05:28,495 --> 00:05:30,505 research tree or to steal these things. 113 00:05:30,510 --> 00:05:32,815 I was like, what's this tree that they're talking about? 114 00:05:33,655 --> 00:05:38,785 ? I was, I was so confused, and it was a real wake up call that I 115 00:05:39,265 --> 00:05:41,725 probably can't balance my degree and actually learning how to. 116 00:05:42,430 --> 00:05:46,690 because it was too much of a learning curve for me to do both, and it 117 00:05:46,690 --> 00:05:49,540 was my final year of university and things were getting really tough. 118 00:05:50,125 --> 00:05:55,345 So the pandemic hit and now like I've got a lot of time and that's when I joined 119 00:05:55,345 --> 00:06:01,075 the Sky Getting to Tech Scheme, which is a 14 week part-time course with Skye. 120 00:06:01,645 --> 00:06:04,855 And that was great because I had the power of community so we were all 121 00:06:04,860 --> 00:06:07,075 learning together, which was great. 122 00:06:07,165 --> 00:06:09,655 And I was also teaching with Code First Girls. 123 00:06:09,655 --> 00:06:12,475 I was teaching the words button course cuz remember I was saying 124 00:06:12,475 --> 00:06:14,695 I know about H one CSS at least. 125 00:06:15,115 --> 00:06:16,765 And I was looking at cuz the thing. 126 00:06:17,270 --> 00:06:20,870 A big feedback that was I was getting was one, I didn't have a computer 127 00:06:20,870 --> 00:06:25,490 science degree, so I didn't get through like most of like past the CV stage. 128 00:06:25,850 --> 00:06:28,970 So I was stalking people on LinkedIn who had a computer science degree 129 00:06:28,970 --> 00:06:32,180 and how can I stand out against them? 130 00:06:32,270 --> 00:06:34,760 And like a few of them had taught with Code First Girls. 131 00:06:34,765 --> 00:06:36,050 So I thought, okay, great. 132 00:06:36,050 --> 00:06:38,820 Two and one, you know, accelerating my learning. 133 00:06:39,280 --> 00:06:43,000 Giving back to the community, but then also like being able to put stuff in my 134 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:47,470 CV and say, look, I'm technical enough if I'm able to at least be involved 135 00:06:47,470 --> 00:06:50,050 in this, in teaching a coding course. 136 00:06:50,050 --> 00:06:50,440 Right. 137 00:06:50,530 --> 00:06:51,280 That's awesome. 138 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:51,790 Yeah. 139 00:06:51,795 --> 00:06:52,510 Thank you. 140 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,770 And so my whole thing was, okay, I need to kind of build up my brand 141 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:01,330 at the same time that having solid proof that I can actually code my 142 00:07:01,510 --> 00:07:05,680 projects teaching and be involved in this community because it meant. 143 00:07:06,430 --> 00:07:07,870 There's that accountability. 144 00:07:08,020 --> 00:07:10,150 I think that it can be quite a lonely route. 145 00:07:10,780 --> 00:07:13,540 Learning how to code and face all these hurdles and all these 146 00:07:13,540 --> 00:07:14,470 things that you see on Twitter. 147 00:07:15,025 --> 00:07:19,525 Roadmap to land your first straw and then it's like H M L C S S, JavaScript 148 00:07:19,525 --> 00:07:21,925 React testing like data shots now. 149 00:07:22,165 --> 00:07:23,935 And it's so overwhelming. 150 00:07:24,295 --> 00:07:26,695 I remember feeling so stressed. 151 00:07:26,725 --> 00:07:27,085 It is. 152 00:07:27,395 --> 00:07:32,245 I was like, I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to, to actually land that 153 00:07:32,250 --> 00:07:34,105 role because it was so stressful. 154 00:07:34,110 --> 00:07:38,335 But it also, like I was para programming with my friend, we 155 00:07:38,335 --> 00:07:42,745 pray, programmed every day from like 9:00 AM to 12:00 PM for like. 156 00:07:42,990 --> 00:07:45,360 Two months on Code Wars. 157 00:07:45,420 --> 00:07:45,690 Wow. 158 00:07:45,690 --> 00:07:49,380 And it was so helpful because she was better than me and when it's 159 00:07:49,380 --> 00:07:52,050 amazing me to find someone better than you, cuz it means that they 160 00:07:52,055 --> 00:07:53,790 can explain certain concepts to you. 161 00:07:53,790 --> 00:07:58,020 And, and it was just probably the one of the most amazing experiences because 162 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,480 it taught me how to think like a coder. 163 00:08:00,540 --> 00:08:05,220 I just didn't, when I saw like those little mini, like the basic cat. 164 00:08:05,925 --> 00:08:10,665 I was, how am I meant to know that an array is the thing that I 165 00:08:10,665 --> 00:08:12,555 need to use to solve this problem? 166 00:08:12,555 --> 00:08:15,675 How do I know about the various different methods when it comes 167 00:08:15,675 --> 00:08:17,175 to various different data types? 168 00:08:17,385 --> 00:08:19,335 That whole concept was super confusing. 169 00:08:19,605 --> 00:08:23,955 So I think that the power of community definitely accelerated my learning 170 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:28,635 growth, and I had a lot of help when it came to preparing for interviews as. 171 00:08:29,245 --> 00:08:30,295 , which was amazing. 172 00:08:30,475 --> 00:08:30,715 Eddie: Yeah. 173 00:08:30,715 --> 00:08:33,475 I think, like you said, problem solving, right? 174 00:08:33,475 --> 00:08:37,945 And understanding what tools to apply to different situations. 175 00:08:38,215 --> 00:08:43,375 It's all about actually encountering those situations where like you need to 176 00:08:43,375 --> 00:08:48,055 use that tool and having someone there to be able to say, Hey, this situation 177 00:08:48,055 --> 00:08:51,355 is where I, you, you would use this and this one is where I'd use that. 178 00:08:51,715 --> 00:08:54,475 I love that, that, that definitely, I can see how that would 179 00:08:54,715 --> 00:08:56,845 speed up the learning process. 180 00:08:57,975 --> 00:09:00,345 Amber: And it's like when you are getting that kind of rejection, 181 00:09:00,345 --> 00:09:04,515 it can be easy for you to be put off of still applying for roles. 182 00:09:04,635 --> 00:09:08,775 And the thing is, I know that I applied way too early who told me to apply 183 00:09:08,780 --> 00:09:12,795 for computer science graduate skills when I only knew H O C S S basically. 184 00:09:13,275 --> 00:09:18,015 But I feel like I would definitely apply early cuz it gives you a great insight 185 00:09:18,015 --> 00:09:19,605 into what you need to prepare for. 186 00:09:19,995 --> 00:09:24,345 So I remember applying for the scheme and someone asked me about GI. 187 00:09:24,745 --> 00:09:27,895 And I was like, we've just used GitHub desktop. 188 00:09:27,895 --> 00:09:31,645 Like I was like, I know about the whole pulling and pushing concept, 189 00:09:31,645 --> 00:09:33,865 but I didn't know about GI commands. 190 00:09:34,015 --> 00:09:36,985 And so after that interview I basically wrote down all of the 191 00:09:36,985 --> 00:09:38,335 questions that she asked me. 192 00:09:38,725 --> 00:09:40,435 I made sure to learn everything. 193 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,825 That's cuz it's like, clearly I know that with, well at the time 194 00:09:43,825 --> 00:09:45,325 I didn't know the importance of. 195 00:09:45,990 --> 00:09:48,030 So I've reached out to a few software developers. 196 00:09:48,030 --> 00:09:50,430 I knew, I was like, is this something that I really need to learn? 197 00:09:50,430 --> 00:09:52,530 Is it like the whole binary research tree thing? 198 00:09:52,740 --> 00:09:54,240 Which I'm just not going to be 199 00:09:54,560 --> 00:09:57,180 I'm just, I'm just not gonna delve in, like, is this actually 200 00:09:57,180 --> 00:09:58,200 something I need to know? 201 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,790 And it was like confirmed like, yes, you'll be using this tool every day. 202 00:10:02,795 --> 00:10:04,590 You need to know how to use a terminal. 203 00:10:04,965 --> 00:10:10,035 and I was like, terminal commands . But yeah, it, it's honestly a great way to 204 00:10:10,035 --> 00:10:14,055 focus on the things that you actually need to learn to learn that role and things 205 00:10:14,055 --> 00:10:15,615 that are relevant within that role as 206 00:10:15,620 --> 00:10:15,885 Eddie: well. 207 00:10:16,005 --> 00:10:21,435 Yeah, I think that's utilizing, putting yourself into a position a little 208 00:10:21,435 --> 00:10:23,565 bit earlier than you might do it. 209 00:10:23,570 --> 00:10:26,805 Hopefully that also could take pressure off, like if someone knows, 210 00:10:26,810 --> 00:10:29,475 okay, I'm not actually expecting to. 211 00:10:30,195 --> 00:10:34,915 , get into graduate school right now or get a job right now, but that I'm just 212 00:10:34,915 --> 00:10:39,145 putting myself in this position to learn what people are looking for and like, 213 00:10:39,205 --> 00:10:41,935 yeah, hopefully that takes a little bit of the pressure off, you know, 214 00:10:41,935 --> 00:10:43,495 they can just think of it as practice. 215 00:10:43,585 --> 00:10:44,365 I think that's awesome. 216 00:10:44,485 --> 00:10:45,265 Yeah, exactly. 217 00:10:45,445 --> 00:10:48,805 One of the things that we try to talk about every episode is 218 00:10:49,075 --> 00:10:51,565 something that brings you joy. 219 00:10:52,565 --> 00:10:54,485 , what is it that kind of brings you joy? 220 00:10:54,785 --> 00:10:55,385 Oh my gosh, 221 00:10:55,385 --> 00:10:56,735 Amber: there's so many different things. 222 00:10:56,825 --> 00:11:01,445 One of my missions is definitely to get more women into tech, like wherever that's 223 00:11:01,450 --> 00:11:03,725 through, learning how to code or whatever. 224 00:11:03,725 --> 00:11:06,635 But I think that's why I've been so heavily involved in various different 225 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,775 communities, like Code First Girls and Code Black females, and just to 226 00:11:10,775 --> 00:11:15,425 see their development as they go from, you know, just being quite confused. 227 00:11:15,835 --> 00:11:16,855 , what's a variable? 228 00:11:17,125 --> 00:11:20,305 What are like basic like four loops and things like that to 229 00:11:20,765 --> 00:11:22,015 actually landing their first role. 230 00:11:22,375 --> 00:11:25,255 And I think that there's a lot of courses out there about how to 231 00:11:25,255 --> 00:11:29,605 code, but there's a lot of things that aren't necessarily focused. 232 00:11:29,695 --> 00:11:33,535 Like there's not a big focus on like just how much imposter syndrome may 233 00:11:33,535 --> 00:11:36,895 impact you even applying for jobs and when you apply for those jobs. 234 00:11:37,315 --> 00:11:41,245 And I've been doing a lot more research into things like composite syndrome and 235 00:11:41,245 --> 00:11:42,835 how that shows up in various different. 236 00:11:43,750 --> 00:11:46,210 And like how it's definitely affected me. 237 00:11:46,210 --> 00:11:48,490 So one way is the expert. 238 00:11:48,820 --> 00:11:53,770 So sometimes when you feel like you never know enough, how can I apply for a role 239 00:11:53,775 --> 00:11:56,710 when I'm not proficient at JavaScript? 240 00:11:56,770 --> 00:11:58,240 But then how was that measured? 241 00:11:58,600 --> 00:11:59,020 You know? 242 00:11:59,025 --> 00:12:01,900 Or it's like the perfectionist, they have super high expectations. 243 00:12:01,900 --> 00:12:06,220 Like, I don't want to go to an interview if I can't answer those questions. 244 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:10,960 There have been times in interviews where I've said, I dunno the answer. 245 00:12:12,070 --> 00:12:15,340 I remember, I was like, I'm sorry, I, I actually dunno the answer to this. 246 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,350 And it's so uncomfortable. 247 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:22,240 It's so awkward, and I can understand how that can actually take an effect on 248 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,380 your confidence because I'm someone that has very high expectations for myself. 249 00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:30,160 So the fact that I'm here telling this person, I don't have a clue. 250 00:12:30,460 --> 00:12:32,050 It just makes you feel very vulnerable. 251 00:12:32,050 --> 00:12:32,890 And I remember. 252 00:12:33,190 --> 00:12:37,490 Having the worst interview of my life, and I'm screaming, like, I'm 253 00:12:37,490 --> 00:12:40,060 literally screaming afterwards. 254 00:12:40,060 --> 00:12:46,300 Like, that was the world's worst interview also, um, PO as 255 00:12:46,300 --> 00:12:47,680 you know, the natural genius. 256 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:52,510 So, so there's a thing called GSCs, which is for like, I wanna say 11 257 00:12:52,515 --> 00:12:54,010 year olds to 16 year olds in the. 258 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:56,290 Those came very easy to me. 259 00:12:56,410 --> 00:13:01,690 And because that kind of instilled this, I should get things on 260 00:13:01,690 --> 00:13:03,820 the first try kind of thing. 261 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:04,710 Mm, yeah. 262 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:05,350 Yeah. 263 00:13:05,350 --> 00:13:08,050 Like when I'm like learning how to code, I'm like, why do I need 264 00:13:08,050 --> 00:13:09,670 to look back at this fall loop? 265 00:13:09,670 --> 00:13:12,220 Like, why can't I just learn it once and then it's just in here? 266 00:13:12,535 --> 00:13:15,445 and like, um, sometimes I was even talking about this in Twitter 267 00:13:15,445 --> 00:13:18,805 space today when people say, oh, how'd you get so good at coding? 268 00:13:19,045 --> 00:13:21,845 And the answer for everything, how to good, good at anything 269 00:13:21,850 --> 00:13:23,335 is time and consistency. 270 00:13:23,545 --> 00:13:25,525 But everyone wants that kind of hack. 271 00:13:25,525 --> 00:13:27,685 Like, I wanna get good in six days. 272 00:13:27,690 --> 00:13:31,915 How can I get 10 years of developer experience in six days? 273 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,855 Is there like kind of some cheat form that I can do? 274 00:13:35,755 --> 00:13:39,065 And then also the soloist and they're the person that kind 275 00:13:39,295 --> 00:13:41,545 of says, oh, I can't ask for. 276 00:13:42,090 --> 00:13:46,230 Or any questions cuz it just exposes the fact that I really am an imposter. 277 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,200 So it's just like having those conversations with people and delving 278 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:54,330 deep into what's holding you back from maybe learning how to code, progressing 279 00:13:54,335 --> 00:13:56,700 in that, applying for jobs and Yeah. 280 00:13:56,700 --> 00:14:00,270 And even when you are in that job, like how that's affected, I think that it's 281 00:14:00,300 --> 00:14:03,900 very rewarding for me to see people develop and that makes me extremely 282 00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:04,260 Eddie: happy. 283 00:14:04,470 --> 00:14:08,650 I love, that's something that you like to talk about and get out there cuz I. 284 00:14:09,135 --> 00:14:15,285 If someone were to draw a caricature of a programmer, I would probably match it. 285 00:14:15,555 --> 00:14:17,205 I've been nerdy since I grew up. 286 00:14:17,210 --> 00:14:18,975 I wear glasses, right? 287 00:14:19,725 --> 00:14:22,755 . I match every little checkbox that someone would expect of, 288 00:14:22,755 --> 00:14:25,185 like a caricature of a programmer. 289 00:14:25,665 --> 00:14:30,705 I had a lot of imposter syndrome because I would just feel like these 290 00:14:30,705 --> 00:14:32,145 other people are better than me. 291 00:14:32,265 --> 00:14:32,795 You know what I mean? 292 00:14:32,795 --> 00:14:33,035 Mm-hmm. 293 00:14:33,115 --> 00:14:36,825 like and like as soon as someone else would like point out something 294 00:14:36,825 --> 00:14:38,115 or like do some really good. 295 00:14:38,765 --> 00:14:43,175 It somehow made my work feel less good. 296 00:14:43,175 --> 00:14:43,475 Right. 297 00:14:43,475 --> 00:14:47,915 Less, even though it was different and it's like, I don't know how I got wrapped 298 00:14:47,915 --> 00:14:52,445 up in that, but it was just one, something I kind of kept internally for a long 299 00:14:52,445 --> 00:14:54,035 time, like I didn't tell anyone about it. 300 00:14:54,035 --> 00:14:57,665 It was just like kind of that little secret that like hangs on your shoulder 301 00:14:57,670 --> 00:14:59,225 and kind of weighs you down and. 302 00:14:59,750 --> 00:15:03,290 . I can only imagine this was 10 years into programming. 303 00:15:03,290 --> 00:15:03,380 Mm-hmm. 304 00:15:03,620 --> 00:15:05,000 , you know, it wasn't like year one. 305 00:15:05,030 --> 00:15:05,600 Wow. 306 00:15:05,690 --> 00:15:08,600 If being in the industry that long, like I can feel it. 307 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,620 I can only imagine all the imposter syndrome that everyone trying to get 308 00:15:12,620 --> 00:15:18,080 into tech feels and like how lonely that is to not know that we all feel it and 309 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:19,700 like this is how you can push through. 310 00:15:19,700 --> 00:15:22,190 So, no, I think that's such a great. 311 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,720 Area to focus on and to help people. 312 00:15:24,810 --> 00:15:26,760 I really love that, that you're focusing on that. 313 00:15:26,940 --> 00:15:29,100 Amber: Yeah, and it's just like, especially come from a 314 00:15:29,100 --> 00:15:32,220 non-technical background when you are hounded with messages, like 315 00:15:32,340 --> 00:15:33,540 why are you getting into tech? 316 00:15:33,540 --> 00:15:38,520 Like you are almost questioned about your intentions and having that message. 317 00:15:38,580 --> 00:15:41,250 Well, at least for me, oh, you're not technical enough. 318 00:15:41,475 --> 00:15:45,285 And so it's just like having that, almost like when you go into a relationship, 319 00:15:45,290 --> 00:15:49,215 all this baggage, it's like I'm going to this job of all this baggage of like 320 00:15:49,455 --> 00:15:52,875 me feeling like companies have told me that I'm just not good enough and 321 00:15:52,875 --> 00:15:54,735 I'm going, and I'm starting this role. 322 00:15:54,735 --> 00:15:57,255 And I'm like, oh my gosh, am I even good enough? 323 00:15:57,255 --> 00:15:59,115 Because I keep being told I'm not technical. 324 00:15:59,115 --> 00:16:00,975 How did I manage to land this role? 325 00:16:01,245 --> 00:16:03,945 And it's just like sometimes you feel like you're always having to prove 326 00:16:03,945 --> 00:16:05,955 that, okay, I am technical enough. 327 00:16:05,955 --> 00:16:06,585 I do know what I'm. 328 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:12,560 But as a junior, you don't know what you are doing, , you dunno what you're doing. 329 00:16:12,570 --> 00:16:16,440 And no one really ever knows what they're doing, . And it's the 330 00:16:16,660 --> 00:16:19,640 the hardest thing to navigate. 331 00:16:19,645 --> 00:16:21,210 And it's so complicated. 332 00:16:21,210 --> 00:16:24,390 There's so many different layers to this, and it's just like, I've 333 00:16:24,395 --> 00:16:29,040 been very fortunate in both my roles that I've had a very supportive and 334 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,610 inclusive team, but genuinely, because I promise you, if they weren't, I 335 00:16:32,610 --> 00:16:34,200 wouldn't have said anything , but. 336 00:16:34,295 --> 00:16:37,595 Some people don't have that, so it's like they don't feel like they can 337 00:16:37,595 --> 00:16:38,915 open up to their work colleagues. 338 00:16:38,915 --> 00:16:41,585 They don't feel like they can be vulnerable with their managers. 339 00:16:41,585 --> 00:16:44,975 It's hard for them to actually address their pain points and how 340 00:16:44,980 --> 00:16:48,365 like their company or their manager or their team can support them. 341 00:16:48,455 --> 00:16:51,485 I think that can be one of the hardest things to actually manage. 342 00:16:51,485 --> 00:16:53,855 Like, oh my gosh, now I'm in the role. 343 00:16:54,130 --> 00:16:55,150 What the hell am I doing? 344 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:57,550 ? Eddie: No, that's a good point. 345 00:16:57,550 --> 00:16:57,820 Right? 346 00:16:57,820 --> 00:17:00,490 A lot of focus can be how do you learn programming? 347 00:17:00,490 --> 00:17:01,990 How do you get into the job? 348 00:17:01,990 --> 00:17:06,280 And then you get into the job and it's like that's almost an area where people 349 00:17:06,340 --> 00:17:07,810 kind of almost lose that support. 350 00:17:07,870 --> 00:17:09,790 They're suddenly like, oh, well now I got the job. 351 00:17:09,790 --> 00:17:11,410 I can't say I don't know what I'm doing. 352 00:17:11,410 --> 00:17:13,420 I can't ask questions, and they can kind of. 353 00:17:13,740 --> 00:17:17,640 Flounder a little bit in that first job, not knowing what to do. 354 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,690 Amber: Yeah, and the thing is, it's like asking questions is what they 355 00:17:21,690 --> 00:17:26,790 expect and they don't necessarily expect that much from junior developers. 356 00:17:27,120 --> 00:17:27,270 Mm-hmm. 357 00:17:27,515 --> 00:17:31,680 . And it's the most confusing thing because, so you're told before the job. 358 00:17:31,685 --> 00:17:31,980 Okay. 359 00:17:32,540 --> 00:17:36,590 You need to know all these things to land this role. 360 00:17:36,830 --> 00:17:40,400 And then when you're in the role, it's like we don't expect you to know anything. 361 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:41,630 You don't, you don't have a clue. 362 00:17:41,630 --> 00:17:42,650 You are just a junior. 363 00:17:42,980 --> 00:17:46,160 And it's how do you go from one extreme to the other? 364 00:17:46,850 --> 00:17:49,450 Just let me know because I don't get it , I 365 00:17:49,450 --> 00:17:49,970 Eddie: don't get it. 366 00:17:50,750 --> 00:17:52,100 Yeah, no, for sure. 367 00:17:52,370 --> 00:17:54,090 I think it's so interesting. 368 00:17:54,755 --> 00:17:59,885 As people are junior, I hope that people can really embrace asking questions 369 00:17:59,885 --> 00:18:01,385 because like it should never leave. 370 00:18:01,625 --> 00:18:05,375 At my last company, I was managing a team of all senior engineers, 371 00:18:05,375 --> 00:18:09,005 but like you have engineers who have to learn the code base, right? 372 00:18:09,005 --> 00:18:12,365 They have to learn the like industry you're in, right? 373 00:18:12,365 --> 00:18:13,715 We were in cybersecurity. 374 00:18:14,075 --> 00:18:18,245 Then you had people, like I hired some people who knew React and they were good 375 00:18:18,245 --> 00:18:20,075 at React, but we were using Angular. 376 00:18:20,135 --> 00:18:20,375 Mm-hmm. 377 00:18:20,645 --> 00:18:21,935 , like I kept having to tell them. 378 00:18:22,295 --> 00:18:26,015 I know you're a senior engineer, but like it's okay to ask question and 379 00:18:26,015 --> 00:18:29,195 at some point I kind of just started saying, Hey, listen, in your first 90 380 00:18:29,195 --> 00:18:32,585 days, that's your permission to ask every question that enters your mind. 381 00:18:32,705 --> 00:18:35,705 Yes, you can ask questions after the first 90 days, but like you 382 00:18:35,710 --> 00:18:37,305 shouldn't be withholding yourself from. 383 00:18:37,675 --> 00:18:40,405 Asking any question in the first 90 days, cuz that's like your 384 00:18:40,405 --> 00:18:42,245 free ticket to ask questions. 385 00:18:42,250 --> 00:18:42,415 Yeah. 386 00:18:42,445 --> 00:18:45,085 Like everyone expects questions in the first 90 days. 387 00:18:45,175 --> 00:18:48,505 I think that's definitely like take advantage of those first 90 days. 388 00:18:48,505 --> 00:18:52,375 Like everyone knows you're new, ask every question . Yeah. 389 00:18:52,375 --> 00:18:52,555 And 390 00:18:52,555 --> 00:18:55,615 Amber: I think people need more managers like that to communicate. 391 00:18:55,875 --> 00:18:56,445 Okay. 392 00:18:56,505 --> 00:19:00,165 It's very normal to ask questions like this is something that we celebrate 393 00:19:00,165 --> 00:19:03,495 within the organization because if people aren't told that, it's just 394 00:19:03,495 --> 00:19:05,385 like they normally do internalize. 395 00:19:05,385 --> 00:19:05,835 Oh, okay. 396 00:19:05,835 --> 00:19:09,045 If I ask a question, then it's just going to, again, like what we're 397 00:19:09,045 --> 00:19:12,345 speaking about, the soloist, oh, it's going to expose that I really am an 398 00:19:12,345 --> 00:19:17,295 imposter, and what questions are good questions and is this a stupid question? 399 00:19:17,295 --> 00:19:18,765 I don't wanna ask stupid questions. 400 00:19:18,765 --> 00:19:23,775 In this big meeting of like 50 people in this zoom call, it can 401 00:19:23,775 --> 00:19:25,125 be quite stressful for people. 402 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,930 I was very fortunate in my first role as a junior software engineer. 403 00:19:29,260 --> 00:19:31,780 The director used to always ask questions. 404 00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:36,130 You knew that if he was in a meeting, he would have some question to ask, 405 00:19:36,130 --> 00:19:40,150 and it kind of gives you that safety to know that, well, if this director's 406 00:19:40,155 --> 00:19:43,990 asking these questions, then I can definitely ask the questions and. 407 00:19:44,530 --> 00:19:46,180 You know, it's not an all nothing thing. 408 00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:49,810 The great thing about hybrid working is that you can type a question. 409 00:19:50,140 --> 00:19:52,810 I didn't necessarily appreciate because I was doing all these 410 00:19:52,810 --> 00:19:54,280 things during the pandemic. 411 00:19:54,670 --> 00:19:57,310 I didn't necessarily appreciate the fact that these things 412 00:19:57,310 --> 00:19:58,630 all used to be in person. 413 00:19:58,900 --> 00:20:03,370 I can't imagine doing a standoff in person , like I've never had to do it. 414 00:20:03,910 --> 00:20:07,390 And so I can imagine that could be even more anxiety inducing. 415 00:20:08,425 --> 00:20:09,355 Everyone looking at you. 416 00:20:09,375 --> 00:20:09,865 Yeah. 417 00:20:09,985 --> 00:20:10,545 Right. 418 00:20:10,545 --> 00:20:13,225 And you are saying, well, what the hell was I doing yesterday? 419 00:20:13,230 --> 00:20:14,185 Cause I didn't have a clue. 420 00:20:16,285 --> 00:20:20,545 just trying to like go through the code base and do my best to navigate like 421 00:20:20,545 --> 00:20:22,315 whatever ticket that I was assigned. 422 00:20:22,615 --> 00:20:27,175 So yeah, I didn't necessarily appreciate just how different it was pre pandemic. 423 00:20:27,535 --> 00:20:31,075 Eddie: Yeah, it definitely, like you said, I think it's interesting cuz some 424 00:20:31,075 --> 00:20:35,515 people are concerned that like, oh, remote juniors won't have as much support, but 425 00:20:35,515 --> 00:20:40,435 I feel like it's also less scary and it's easier to like slack someone a question 426 00:20:40,645 --> 00:20:44,785 walking over to someone's desk where everyone can hear you and like asking a 427 00:20:44,790 --> 00:20:45,325 Amber: question. 428 00:20:45,580 --> 00:20:49,810 Exactly, but then also when you are onboarded virtually, it can be 429 00:20:49,810 --> 00:20:51,310 quite hard to reach out to people. 430 00:20:51,340 --> 00:20:51,400 Yeah. 431 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,290 At least that's what I found in my experience. 432 00:20:53,290 --> 00:20:56,320 Cuz it's like everyone knows each other, everyone knew each other 433 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,530 from pre pandemic and you kind of feel like this outside up, you just 434 00:20:59,530 --> 00:21:02,410 like this little box in the standup. 435 00:21:02,500 --> 00:21:04,000 It can be quite intimidating. 436 00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:07,930 Okay, so now I need to reach out to this person and ask them a question 437 00:21:08,650 --> 00:21:13,090 . And I dunno why I found that just so scary, even though I knew that. 438 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,240 Super nice and really collaborative, and when he did ask him the question, 439 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:18,800 there was like literally no judgment. 440 00:21:19,255 --> 00:21:24,205 It still petrified me and I think, again, like that's why it's so important to have 441 00:21:24,205 --> 00:21:28,315 these kind of connections, especially when you're working in a virtual environment. 442 00:21:28,615 --> 00:21:32,005 When I was starting my role, there was still like we literally were not allowed 443 00:21:32,065 --> 00:21:36,565 by the government to go into the office, so there was like no hybrid situation. 444 00:21:36,835 --> 00:21:40,975 I think it's really important to have some kind of like one-to-one calls 445 00:21:41,005 --> 00:21:46,465 incumbent team members set with new joiners because as a new join. 446 00:21:46,955 --> 00:21:48,845 Because everyone, you don't see what everyone's doing, so you 447 00:21:48,845 --> 00:21:52,325 assume that everyone is super busy and they won't have time to even 448 00:21:52,325 --> 00:21:54,635 have like a 15 minute coffee chat. 449 00:21:54,635 --> 00:21:58,205 And I think that when you arrange those things for new joiners, it makes 450 00:21:58,205 --> 00:22:01,595 a huge difference in terms of feeling included, having that more likely 451 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,075 to have that psychological safety to like, contribute, ask questions, 452 00:22:05,075 --> 00:22:06,625 make mistakes, and be open about it. 453 00:22:07,345 --> 00:22:08,755 Eddie: So, yeah, I totally agree. 454 00:22:08,755 --> 00:22:13,075 I think that anyone who's listening who has like the ability to 455 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:14,575 kind of push that stuff, right? 456 00:22:14,575 --> 00:22:18,295 If you are a, you know, mid or a senior developer or even just a junior 457 00:22:18,295 --> 00:22:20,815 who's been at your company for a couple years, like when new people 458 00:22:20,815 --> 00:22:22,435 come in, like, do what Amber said. 459 00:22:22,495 --> 00:22:24,025 Reach out, do a coffee chat. 460 00:22:24,025 --> 00:22:28,885 Like you are helping that person feel more comfortable, feel part of the family, and 461 00:22:28,885 --> 00:22:32,095 kind of taking, taking the responsibility of being the person who has been at 462 00:22:32,100 --> 00:22:33,685 the company longer to like invite them. 463 00:22:34,125 --> 00:22:34,455 Yeah, 464 00:22:34,455 --> 00:22:36,885 Amber: and give them insight into like various different 465 00:22:36,885 --> 00:22:38,205 team members what they're like. 466 00:22:38,205 --> 00:22:39,875 I remember meeting with my director. 467 00:22:39,875 --> 00:22:43,005 He said, you know, if you need help with X, go to this person. 468 00:22:43,005 --> 00:22:45,165 If you need help with y, go to that person. 469 00:22:45,495 --> 00:22:48,615 And I was just like, I asked the right person, that. 470 00:22:48,615 --> 00:22:48,885 Awesome. 471 00:22:48,885 --> 00:22:51,315 I'm talking to the perfect person. 472 00:22:51,675 --> 00:22:55,365 And it helped me just to gain a better understanding of like my team members and 473 00:22:55,365 --> 00:22:57,315 also like areas that they're strong in. 474 00:22:57,945 --> 00:23:02,145 Eddie: As we wrap up the episode, we always like to see if anyone has anything 475 00:23:02,145 --> 00:23:03,495 they'd like to share with the community. 476 00:23:03,495 --> 00:23:07,695 Obviously, you listed off a lot of really awesome things at the beginning 477 00:23:07,695 --> 00:23:11,595 of the episode, so I'd just like to kind of swing back around and, uh, 478 00:23:11,625 --> 00:23:14,175 have you share some of that stuff again for people to be able to check out. 479 00:23:14,510 --> 00:23:15,470 Amber: Thank you. 480 00:23:15,470 --> 00:23:18,380 So I co-host the Glowing and Tech podcast. 481 00:23:18,380 --> 00:23:20,660 It's powered by coding black females. 482 00:23:21,020 --> 00:23:24,350 It is a space where we showcase black women in tech. 483 00:23:24,350 --> 00:23:27,980 So we split the episodes in two parts of episodes. 484 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,640 First part is just learning about them and their journey into tech. 485 00:23:31,645 --> 00:23:35,510 And then we have a 10 called discussion called tech topic in 10, 486 00:23:35,510 --> 00:23:37,190 which is always like super exciting. 487 00:23:37,580 --> 00:23:41,210 And then we have like spilling the tech tea where they share. 488 00:23:41,490 --> 00:23:44,370 Controversial take or something in the tech industry, and that's 489 00:23:44,370 --> 00:23:46,290 always something super fun. 490 00:23:46,290 --> 00:23:47,730 So yeah, definitely check it out. 491 00:23:48,060 --> 00:23:52,110 It's on YouTube, Spotify, apple and Auto, audible, , so 492 00:23:52,110 --> 00:23:52,530 Eddie: yeah. 493 00:23:52,740 --> 00:23:53,460 Yeah, definitely. 494 00:23:53,465 --> 00:23:58,050 We'll include links to that as well as everything else you've mentioned. 495 00:23:58,340 --> 00:23:59,900 kind of in this episode today in the show notes. 496 00:23:59,900 --> 00:24:03,470 So if any of that sounds familiar, definitely go check it out. 497 00:24:03,620 --> 00:24:06,350 And Amber, thank you so much for joining us today. 498 00:24:06,350 --> 00:24:07,760 It's been just a pleasure to talk. 499 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:08,270 It's been 500 00:24:08,270 --> 00:24:11,150 Amber: amazing to talk . Thank you so much for having me. 501 00:24:11,155 --> 00:24:12,590 This has been so much fun. 502 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:18,390 Eddie: Thanks for joining us for episode 29, please just give a 503 00:24:18,390 --> 00:24:20,340 girl a chance with Amber Shand. 504 00:24:20,820 --> 00:24:23,520 You can find out more about Amber on her website. 505 00:24:23,940 --> 00:24:30,480 Amber shand.co.uk or her Twitter at Amber Lee tech. 506 00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:33,960 You can find links to everything we talked about in this episode, 507 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,590 as well as a link to ambers website and Twitter in the show notes. 508 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,280 If you enjoyed this episode, help others discover it as well. 509 00:24:41,820 --> 00:24:44,910 Why don't you give us a shout out on your favorite social media platform, 510 00:24:45,180 --> 00:24:48,240 maybe tag a friend or coworker that you think would enjoy it. 511 00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:51,660 Don't forget to follow us wherever you hang out online. 512 00:24:51,990 --> 00:24:56,130 Or you can subscribe to our newsletter, stay up to date on a weekly basis. 513 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,700 Thank you for listening and have a great day. 514 00:24:59,833 --> 00:25:00,043 Amber: Have 515 00:25:00,048 --> 00:25:00,733 a great day. 516 00:25:00,823 --> 00:25:01,513 Take care.