Welcome to the Stay the Second podcast.

My name is John and today we're joined by Jordan from Gideon Optics.

How are you, my friend?

Great.

How are you, John?

Good.

So, first and foremost, I want to start off, we got a little gift from you.

This is from our sponsor and partner at Palmetto and aac.

So this is an ammo dump that they're going to be sending you after the show.

So go ahead and there you go.

We got a cool dump of ammo from aac.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Well, thank you for being here.

You can leave it up there.

No, you can take it out.

Leave it.

Yeah.

Little brand spot.

They got it.

Cool.

So go ahead and get just a little background about who you are and we'll dive into this.

Sure.

So I'm Jordan Vinro with Gideon Optics and a few other brands you may have heard of.

I started about 11 years ago in the firearms industry, selling parts, gun shows, and online.

And then we just kind of gradually have built different things along the way, added more parts in gun shows.

We have a couple series of gun shows throughout the country.

And now we have an optics brand that we're really leaning into and having a lot of fun with that.

So, yeah, you guys have a blast with it.

Yeah, it's a lot of fun.

You've all become your own celebrity at Chacho with your own individual patch.

Yeah.

Yeah, we got some fun ones this year, too.

Yeah, that's a new thing we're doing.

Yeah.

Excited.

So we're going to go into our first segment, which is our rapid fire segment.

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So we're going to ask you five questions.

You can answer them as fast or slow as you want, and you just throw it into this.

So first question, Pineapple on pizza, yes or no?

No.

No.

Why no pineapple on pizza?

I don't eat pineapple at all.

Certainly not on pizza.

New heathen.

What is your EDC right now?

SIG P365 with a Patmos arm slide, which is one of our brands.

And my.

Well, I have a prototype, Gideon Judge 2 on there.

So I get to try all the new stuff for a while before we release it.

Spoiler.

If you can make one firearms movie realistic, which one would it be?

Oh, man, I don't know.

Rambo, probably Rambo.

Yeah, they're all which.

Which Rambo?

The first.

First Blood.

First blood part three.

Yeah.

First blood.

First blood.

What are your top three games?

Guns for the zombie apocalypse.

Probably an AR15,556 12 gauge.

Probably a Glock.

Probably a Glock.

Which one?

Any nine millimeter?

19.

Glock 19.

Glock 19.

And the reason is because all that's the most common ammo you're gonna find when you're pillaging for wares and items.

And then last question is, what is your go to home defense right now?

It's a Mossberg shockwave.

Little shorty.

12 gauge.

Fun.

Yeah.

So you got a brace on it or is it just.

No, just the bird's head.

Just the bird head.

Yep, yep.

That's a.

That's different.

Yeah, it's just what's playing next to my bed right now.

Yeah.

So that's cool.

Yeah.

So let's go ahead and talk about, you know, Gideon and how you guys started and all that stuff because you guys are relatively new ish to the industry.

Go ahead and just like what made you want to bring into get in the optics game?

Sure.

So JSD Supply was my original, our original business and brand.

And we were selling privately made firearm parts basically is, you know, what they've become 80% more commonly known as.

And so some of the laws are starting to change and we kind of saw that coming.

So we wanted to get into something that was less politically charged.

So it was.

We were looking at knives, maybe we'd start a knife company, maybe we start an optics company.

We weren't sure, but it was one of those two paths.

And so we went down both of them and eventually landed on optics.

So one of our remote employees, Mike Branson, has worked in a few different optics companies over the years.

So he became available and so we worked with him a little bit.

He does a lot of our design work on the reticles.

And he's more of our technical guy too.

He knows all the nerd stuff, I like to call it.

So we did that.

And all the folks at work are active shooters and different involvement with the industry.

So optics is something that we all use.

We thought, why don't we do it and add our flavor to it?

So we've been out for about two years now to retail.

So it's been a lot of fun.

We've been growing like crazy.

It's.

It's been excellent to.

To have already had all the pitfalls in business previously in this industry.

You know, any of the wrong turns we made or Whatever.

We kind of get to jump the line in that regard since we've been around for a while, so.

So.

Well, that.

That's awesome.

I'm.

I'm glad that you guys are doing it now.

I know this.

I don't know if a lot of people know this.

You're a Pittsburgh boy.

Is that why you went black and gold?

It's just.

Yeah, I'm sure it plays into it subconsciously because that's all we see in our area in western Pennsylvania is black and gold.

So.

Yeah, it just.

I don't know, we just liked it.

I think it pops.

So you get into this game.

What was the first optic you came out with?

We came out with, I think probably three or four right away.

Our top seller is the Omega.

It's kind of like the large circular window, competition style type of optic.

My personal favorite.

Get yourself one.

Yeah.

So we have a lot of people that really like that because there's other higher dollar, more expensive optics out there that are very similar and guys that are girls too, I guess, but guys that want to get into some competition shooting, but they don't want to spend the $700 on just an optic to try it.

They can get ours for, you know, in the ballpark of low two hundreds and hit the range, hit the local match, whatever, and have a lot of fun.

So it's a.

It's an easy segue into figuring out if an optic is right for your pistol or.

Or that style.

So.

So here, here's my quick, like, little spicy topic for right now.

Can we get together and so now I'm talking to an optics company.

Can we get together all the optics companies in one room and go, hey, this is the standardized footprint that we're going for.

Everything and everybody.

Here's the screws that we're gonna use and everybody go with this.

Yeah.

Have you ever heard high school girls argue about things?

That's essentially what that side of the business is like.

So, yeah, there is no standard, really.

There's like two or three that kind of are the big boys right now for as far as footprints.

But this is what armor rmsc.

Yeah.

And Delta Point Pro is starting to come on pretty strong.

I know some of Vortex's stuff is coming out with that footprint.

So I think they're trying to make a push to kind of standardize that one.

So just want one standard zip and all the screws cut to the same size and depth and.

Yeah, it's never going to happen.

Yeah.

I can pray and hope.

Yeah, you can yeah, you can.

We'll get there.

I think you.

Jordan, I'm going to spearhead this.

You're going to spearhead this demand that all the other manufacturers do what I say.

Do what I say.

So while we're on the, the topic of, of spearheading things, you guys were at our first convention.

Yes.

And we were talking last night about this.

You guys really enjoyed yourself.

It was really busy the whole time.

What did you see at our convention that was different from other things that you've gone to?

So I really like knowing the people that are putting the event on.

So, like, when I see you walking through the crowd, I get to be crazy and be silly in the middle of the show.

So that's great.

Not all conventions allow me to be myself when we're there.

So, yeah, it's awesome.

And then to see, you know, how some.

I know some of the inner workings of putting on a show.

So to see you guys succeeding there is really fun because I know how hard it is to put on a convention and a show that nobody really knows what goes on behind the scenes.

I think you just show up and here it is.

Set your stuff up and get out, you know, so.

But that was awesome.

And then, you know, Gua is like one giant family, you know, and when we're there, we feel that way too.

Like everybody says hello, even some of the, you know, the higher ranking people, you know, they come through and it's just friendly and fun.

So it's some of the most fun we have.

Was it goals?

Yeah.

I mean, did you.

I was talking to Rachel over at Night Vision.

She said that that was the most fun.

A lot of people had said this to me, but she really stood out, is that the people coming up to your booth actually wanted to have conversations with you about the product.

It wasn't just like you make what.

Yeah, yeah, it was great.

Engagement to the customers or the folks that attendees were all super happy to talk to you and friendly.

This space is just friendly.

Generally the two way space, everybody is kind of like on one mission at the end of the day.

So it's fun to see different walks of life come through and just learn more about the local area and what consumers are wanting to see out of our products.

Yeah.

So as we continue with this kind of talking about the optics and things like that, what kind of restraints or restrictions or what goes into the process of developing a new optic and trying to get it into the country.

I mean, if you got into like tritium or any kind of that stuff, there's some heavy regulation, but right now, for what our products are, it's.

There's not much.

I mean, you just declare it at customs and pay your import taxes and get it.

So we design a lot of it here and the engineering is done here, and then our overseas manufacturers make it to our spec.

We get it in, they inspect it before they ship it.

We get everything in and we touch every single product when it comes in to our shop and then again when it goes back out.

So say we get, for number's sake, 100 units in.

The guys will check every single one of those, put batteries in, make sure the reticle isn't purple when it's supposed to be red or whatever.

So they check that and then it'll go on the stock shelf and basically ready for retail, ready to be shipped out.

And then once it is ready to ship out, they will then check it again just to make sure that the warehouse guy didn't miss something.

Now the shipping guy gets to take a final look at it again.

We've had great success doing that.

Now, do you guys have a great warranty?

So people who don't know what is your warranty process?

So it's lifetime warranty.

You should send us an email basically and say whatever, I don't know, you broke the glass.

You know, we even cover, I don't know what, you know, my lawyers would probably be mad, but I cover basically anything as long as you don't tell me you beat it with a baseball bat on purpose or ran it over with your F250 just to see what would happen.

If you dropped it off this table and something were to happen, we replace it.

So it's a lifetime warranty for the product.

That's great.

Yeah.

And a lot of people, especially in this industry, you need to stand by your product.

And if you don't, you could become that.

But I've heard nothing but great things.

Hey, this broke that called them.

It was already replaced within two hours.

That had a new shipping label.

So it's great to hear when what, what goes into that process of developing a new optic.

You just go, hey, there's a, there's this need that we need.

Or is it just like, hey, you know, so and so is doing this.

Let's, let's piggyback off of this and do the.

Make something at the better price point.

So kind of all of that, I guess price point's always a big one for us.

I like to be, I don't want to say the lowest price point, but I want to be at an aggressive price point and still be able to offer high quality.

A product that says that's gonna do what we say it's going to do and do it repeatedly.

So that goes into a lot of it.

And so speaking just of red dots on pistols, the footprint is very small.

There's only so much you can do with a piece of metal, a piece of glass and a little light beam.

So there's gonna be a lot of overlap in styling.

But we try to bring a little bit of our own flavor to the options that we have available.

So there's really not a whole lot of huge leaps in innovation in this space right now.

Mike said the other day, and it's a great point, is that the innovation right now is being able to make the product better, faster and cheaper than even five years ago.

A lot of our LPVOs, low power variable optic rifle scopes, you know, our, say ours that sells for 400, you know, five, six, seven years ago, would probably be in the $1,200 range for the exact same product, same quality, everything.

But, you know, as technology would have been able to make it cheaper, quicker and still maintain the same quality.

So now, I mean, I know we weren't going to talk about the election, but we're post election.

Do you have any concerns over any tariffs or anything like that, bringing stuff into the country?

Yeah, we've talked about it.

I don't know.

There's always seems to be a way to maneuver that and still stay within the legal bounds.

So we don't know.

I don't like to get too worked up about stuff until it happens.

So there's no sense in losing sleep over tariffs.

Cause if we come up with an idea and say, okay, we're going to have plan A and then that never comes to fruition because the tariffs were not put on or they weren't in a certain way that we thought they were going to be.

So we'll navigate that when it comes.

But it's not going to be just our product line either.

It's going to be everybody else's.

So it's still a level playing field, I guess you could say.

Yeah, and I think that's, that's the big thing when it comes to everyone was so concerned over that.

And we're post election now.

The big thing that we need to really do is continue to push our politicians.

I know we, we won.

But now is the time to continue that grassroots effort and push to get exactly what we want.

You know, there's a lot of talk about in national reciprocity and things like that.

That doesn't happen unless we push.

And that's a big thing that we need to do is now is not the time to, as, as human beings, we, we come and I guess again, again with our, with the Republican side of the House, we always, we win and then we're just like, cool, right?

We're good.

We got this.

No, now's the time to actually push.

You know, if you were to give a message to gun owners right now, you know about that, what would you say?

Yeah, you need to contact your congressmen, your senators, even at a state level, it's.

It's hugely important.

You don't understand how much they.

They look at those numbers when somebody calls in and say, I support or I don't support this bill that's coming or this law that maybe will be changing.

So you really got to get in front of the line and let your representatives know how you stand and how the rest of the community stands too.

So in our industry, and I'll speak maybe for conservatives in general, we just kind of want to be left alone.

So we figure, hey, we're not going to push the envelope.

They're off my back now.

Taxes are a little bit lower.

It's a little bit easier to buy things now.

Great.

That's all we want.

Leave me alone, let me buy my groceries, let me get my kids to where they need to be and stay out of my life, basically, from a government standpoint.

So I think that's where you're right.

I think we drop the ball a lot in the activism side, if that's what you want to call it.

So we need to get a little bit more organized.

But with goa, you guys are kind of the forefront of that.

So the information you guys put out, just piggyback off of that at your local level and, you know, push these folks to get in line with what we need.

Yeah, and that's a big thing with geo.

We are a grassroots organization, so we want to continue to grow and.

Big thing, guys, if you're listening to this, I know we've said this before, but it takes 30 seconds.

Just go to our website.

You can find your congressman, your senator right there.

There's form letters that you can fill out or we can tell you how to write it, and you just go in and fill that out and send 30 seconds to write a letter to your congressman or senator.

But you're absolutely right, is as conservatives, we really just want to be left alone.

We Want to be left alone.

We don't want to be poked.

And I don't want to say that's our downfall, but that is something we just.

We're not.

Not loud, we're not noisy.

But now is the time for us to actually win back some of those rights that were taken away.

Get stuff.

And that kind of leads into our next segment, which is from the Soapbox.

From the Soapbox is brought to you by Patriot mobile.

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So from the Soapbox is where we talk about policy and things that are our frustrations and our gripes and things like that.

With the ATF and you being being at GST supply and 80% frames, you've got a big gripe that's been.

You gotta fight because you started Gideon Optics because of this fight.

Go ahead and just jump into that.

Yeah.

So we were involved in the Vanderstock case for the frame and receiver rule essentially shut down the entire 80% side of the business.

So that's made its way to the Supreme Court.

We actually went in October 8th of 2024 was the hearing, oral arguments.

So I got to take my family down to that.

That was pretty cool.

Defense Distributed was there.

Blackhawk manufacturing, which is 80% arms.

They were there.

And so we got to sit and listen to our case and oral arguments in front of the Supreme Court.

So that was cool by itself.

So I think we're going to win that one.

It'll probably be like a 5, 4 in our favor, but we won't know probably until like May or June, I think of 2025.

But that's a huge one.

And really the entire industry needs to be concerned about those style of rule changes because it affects everybody, whether they believe it or it does or doesn't.

The way they're worded, it's going to affect every single manufacturer from Sig Sauer, Ruger, Smith and Wesson all the way down to guys that are only making 100 rifles a year or something.

So we need to make sure that the ATF is held in check from the balance of power that they have and what they've been doing.

So Congress has very clearly described what firearms are and then we peel it away as we go a little bit here and there.

So it's totally changed the landscape of what a firearm is.

And I think we're going to bring that back to reality.

Yeah, I think that's our.

You, you brought up a good point.

And I think that's our biggest issue as an industry or, or as a community as whole is hey, this doesn't affect me now kind of mentality when it comes to things.

You know, we, you know, we got the frame and receiver issue and that, you know, bigger companies.

Oh, well, I don't do 80% frames or I don't do this.

But we saw the same issue with the bump stocks and it was like bump stocks, you know, it's.

Everybody thinks, you know.

Right.

I'm going to say it now.

A good chunk of us think they're the dumbest thing to ever be invented, but everybody should have the right to own it.

Well, when the bump stock ban came down, everybody was like, eh, right.

Well then, then they went over after the FRT triggers and this.

And it's going to be the same thing that's going to go with this Vanderstock case that if, if they go.

And they go, okay, well this will.

How does that affect, you know, I'm going to break the fourth wall for people out there.

Not a lot of people do their own forgings.

Right, Right.

So like how's that going to affect a Cigare Ruger, a Smith and Wesson who have to buy forgings from the one of six or seven forge houses that are out there and you know that that's an 80% forging that shows up at their house or not their house, their warehouse to go into the machining process or it's a, you know, or even like a fax and, or the smaller companies that's going to, it's a ripple effect.

You know, how do you, how do we get those bigger the companies that don't think they're affected to actually get on board with this?

Yeah.

So before this rule went into effect, there was a comment period.

And so we, we got everybody that we knew on the 80% side involved.

We drafted letters and you know, kind of like a industry letter we sent out and Sig Sauer actually stepped up and they were, I think they did their own.

But they realized that the way that they're even the P365 or the P320, how it's a modular system.

The way this rule was written, the grip module, which is not a firearm, the way it sits on a P320 or P365, that would have been considered a firearm.

Now the ATF's going to tell you, no, that's not, no, that's not the way we intended this to be.

It's not going to affect you.

But it's going to because it always does.

They don't write these rules narrow.

It's very broad and it's for every three lettered agency.

It's not just the atf, the epa, everybody else.

So SIG saw that that was what was coming down the road.

And so they got involved, which I got to give kudos to them because they're the only know mainstream business that, you know, gun manufacturer that got involved as far as I know.

So it does affect everybody.

It will affect everybody.

The, the forgings for AR15s, like you said, those are going to be thousands.

You know, you could ship a pallet of it from the forging house to the manufacturer and it's just a part.

Well, now the forging is going to have to have a manufacturer's license.

They're going to have to serialize everything.

And what happens if one fault literally falls off the truck in shipping or something?

Now you have a missing firearm that's not really a firearm, it's a chunk of metal.

But now you gotta go through that process and it's just the whole spider web of mess.

Well, not only that, but then you gotta think on top of that how much more money it's gonna cost for those forgings because now they have to go and individually serialize.

Okay, well now when it gets to the manufacturer to manufacture it, do they run with the same serial number or do they have to go do a new serial number because they're, it's their thing.

Or does everybody have to send out their variants beforehand?

It's, there's a, it's a, it's a waterfall that a lot of people don't.

You don't think of the small things.

You're like, oh, it doesn't affect me.

I don't make 80%.

Right.

You know, or I don't sell 80 percenters.

But it's gonna change so much.

Yeah, totally would change the landscape of the firearms, which is what they want.

Yeah, unfortunately.

But.

Well, and that's a, it's a lot of things.

You know, we saw it with Hunt, you know, we saw it with Hunters.

We see it with everything.

It's like, well, that doesn't affect me now.

Right.

It's not going after, they're going after AR15s.

Well, I, I've used the same.

30, 30, 3030 Winchester that my daddy gave me.

And it was his daddy's and.

Right, right.

You know, but.

And I, I think that was a great.

To jump back real quick to the grassroots thing.

Like that was a great thing that we did during the election period.

We got a lot of those.

The claim is 10 million gun owners are unregistered voters.

You know, we're seeing this shift, this culture shift in gunners actually getting out and voting.

And I, and I really have to attest to that, that they're now seeing like, oh, this actually is going to affect me.

Oh, this is something.

What do you mean?

I did a class a couple weeks ago or a few months ago at this point with, with Carrie Stallone and we're sitting there and Carrie runs the organization.

We, the female.

We're sitting there and there's.

In this class, there's liberal gun owners and to watch them as we actually start fact checking them.

Well, Australia did a gun ban.

Well, actually Australia did do a gun ban.

It was more of a buyback but you know, violent crime ban drop.

Well, their whole thing was gun violence dropped.

Gun violence dropped.

Yeah.

But everything else went through the roof.

Right.

It's just replaced by something.

Replaced by something.

Criminals are going to do criminal things.

That's right.

There's nothing you can say about that.

That's what they, they do.

Yeah.

Now there's stabbing attacks in the UK and places like that.

Australia had what last year, two or three mass stabbings.

How do you even say that?

Saying that out loud sounds crazy.

It sounds crazy.

Yeah.

Well, when I think messed.

It's the thing that comes to my mind when I hear mastabing is like some dude with a samurai sword running around.

Yeah.

Like from a ninja movie.

Right.

Like that.

It just doesn't sound right.

No.

Right.

But it's, it's the same thing every, when you start saying the facts or if you start telling them.

Like even people who say it doesn't affect them.

Oh, it doesn't affect me at this point in time.

Well, it's a slippery slope.

Right.

Because once you take, you know, hey, they came.

The, the saying is, oh, they came from my era 15s and I said nothing.

And then they came for the, the wood semi.

Then they came for semi automatics and I said nothing.

And then all of a sudden they, they came for, they came for bolt guns and I said nothing because it doesn't affect me.

And then they came for shotguns.

And then I was like, oh, right.

And that's just.

Now it's too late.

It's too late.

You know, it's the same Thing we see in other states with mag bans and everything like that, everyone says, well, it doesn't affect me at this point.

It will, it will.

Yeah.

And I think you touched on something that we all need to realize is that the 2A is not just a conservative movement or a conservative idea.

We have plenty of, you know, liberal or whatever you want to classify yourself as on the left side, I guess, of center.

So we really need to embrace those folks too.

And it's not just a white guy thing.

You know, women are a huge growing segment of the firearms industry and low income folks are some of the folks that need it the most.

So we have a lot of them coming into the space too.

So we really need to kind of change our public appearance, I think, and public Persona that this is a conservative good old boys club, I think.

And we're doing it with the younger generations.

I'll be 40 in a couple weeks here.

So I think the folks younger than me are doing a much better job in embracing all walks of the political spectrum and all walks of the economic spectrum and everything else.

So we need to bring everybody together when it comes to the 2A.

Yeah.

I mean, getting to it, the election just happened.

During the election cycle, we put out our scorecard and a lot of people will think, well, I'll just vote R across the board.

Like because they, they follow what I believe in.

They're pro gun.

Not all Republicans are pro gun, not all Democrats are anti gun.

That's where those scorecards come into effect.

You know, you're absolutely right.

We're seeing, we're not only seeing an increase in, in women who are gun owners, but we saw during COVID we jumped up 40 million new gun owners.

They're not all conservative.

And that's a big thing, is that you don't.

Gun rights don't have a letter next to them.

Right.

There's no RD next to gun rights.

It is our second Amendment.

There's a constitutionally given rights.

If you are a gun owner and you are going to stay a gun owner and you seeing these attacks, now is the time to go, okay, well, which politicians are pro gun?

Which politicians vote with?

The way I vote, you know, Sean Heron, who's a good friend we of ours who has been on the show, you know, we, we talk about it all the time as being in the firearms industry.

We're in this echo chamber and we only hear about firearm stuff and things like that.

And when we go outside of our echo chambers, when we start learning things and learning how to go after these attacks.

But we also have to understand like there are people who own guns who are not in the same echo chamber as we are.

And we need to get them to understand like, hey, this is what's really happening.

This is why this is bad.

Because they might go, well, I've got a shotgun, I don't want an AR15.

AR15.

Well listen, if you, if they ban AR15s, your shotgun's not too far down the road to go, oh no, they'll never bet you.

Right?

You never know that.

Yeah, yeah, we've seen this, seen this movie before, you know.

Yeah.

And that's the thing.

A lot of people think that like the second amendment is this American thing and it is.

But Britain had what they would say their second amendment based on what their king was pushing at the time.

They don't have guns anymore.

And you see how that's going, right?

Australia, the same thing.

We're seeing the Canadians are big gun people too.

We're seeing their attacks too.

It's only, it's a trickle down effect.

And you, you can look at the examples around the world and just see how, how it affects and now coming toward to us and we're like, well, it'll never happen here.

Right.

Or the last stand.

Yeah, it's, they're chipping away at it every day.

So.

Oh, the, the small things, the big thing, it's always the small things that people don't understand.

There's anti gun legislation in almost everything that goes through because they're trying.

And that's where it starts.

You gain some traction, state level, city level.

Maybe, maybe you start at the city level, you gain some traction there.

Go to the state, then the federal.

So you really got to work at all aspects of it.

It goes back to what we said earlier about contacting your representatives, local, state, federal.

You need to contact all of them all the time and let them know where they need to be to maintain their, their positions.

Yeah.

And being, I mean you guys, you're, you're in Pennsylvania, depending on where you're at in Pennsylvania, it's like, oh, guns are bad or oh, guns are good.

You know, what's it like being in such a large state where the, it's literally depending on where you are in the state is where the climate change is.

Yes.

We have preemption in Pennsylvania so they can't cities except Philadelphia for some reason.

I think, I think it's because they have, they're considered a city of the first class.

And it used to be because they had Over a million people, I think was the explanation.

I'm not 100% sure.

But anyway, across the state, these little townships and local ordinances and stuff, they try to add in gun restrictions and they can't.

So that's one good thing that we have about Pennsylvania with our preemption laws.

But you get down to the city of Pittsburgh, we put on a gun show there.

There hadn't been a gun show in the city of Pittsburgh for.

I Forget how long, 20 years.

I'm gonna make it up.

So we rented the convention center and had a small show there.

But we.

You should have heard the phone calls we got from local gun owners that you can't have a show there.

You can't sell AR15s there, because there was a city ordinance a few years ago that they tried to ban.

I think it was AR15s in the city limits or something.

It got struck down, of course.

I think GOA actually did that.

So anyway, yeah, it's.

But you go anywhere else, you know, right in the city of Pittsburgh, because we're on the western side of the state.

So you go anywhere outside the city of Pittsburgh and it's all your standard gun owners, hunters, normal everyday people.

Same with Philadelphia.

Get down to the city of Philadelphia, it's terrible.

And the city hates firearms, but you get just a little bit outside of Philadelphia and they're all normal people that understand that firearms are there for protection for all the things that we use them for.

So it is a very interesting state.

All the middle is normal for the most part, too.

So.

Yeah, well, it's.

It's funny because Ohio has the same thing where in the city of Cleveland had a 15 round restriction and everyone's like, wait a minute, what?

Well, you can't do that.

And then Columbus tried to ban AR mags and it was the same thing where the state's like, wait a minute, you can't do that.

And we're now seeing that.

We're seeing a lot of it on the city level.

I mean, Memphis, which we're going to sue on or have already sued on, Memphis is trying to do gun things.

And even where we held our convention, it's the same thing.

Knoxville has a law with no gun show.

And we went in there and all the people in Knoxville.

Thank you.

Yeah, thank you for being here.

Thank you.

You know, but the same thing.

Well, they said, no, you can.

There's no gun shows allowed here.

And we get there and they're like, thank you for doing this.

We need this.

We need this as a Community and that's a big thing that people.

Again same thing.

What we were talking about is they said no, we can't do this.

It hasn't happened in 20 years.

My grandfather, the last time we had a gun show, my grandfather was there.

And when you come in and do those changes, you know, people's like oh no.

It's a no.

And then you get there and they're like thank you.

Yeah.

You know.

Yeah.

It's almost like we're afraid of our rights.

We're afraid to go against the status quo.

I think it's because we're like you said earlier, we're very.

Just won't be left alone and I think we're very, we're law abiding citizens and we.

That's the big thing with Gunna Gunner law gun owners are law abiding citizens.

Right.

The amount of the, the paperwork we have to go through and all this stuff like we are very.

We followed the law to the te or we're scared about breaking the law.

Yeah.

And, and getting our rights taken away.

I think that's what our.

We don't like to be loud.

We don't like to be the boisterous and that's slightly changing.

I think we're seeing a culture shift into that and that's why I'm, I'm going to encourage everybody.

Now is the time to be the loud person in the room.

Because if we're not the loud person, we have this opportunity that we don't get very often where we have both the House and the Senate and the presidency.

We don't get that very often.

The last time we had it we were kind of like cool.

We got it right.

You guys going to do anything?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Come on.

Then our two years came up.

Right.

And we lost it.

Right.

Now is the time to go.

Do it.

Yeah, do it now or else.

Yeah.

We'll put somebody else in.

Somebody else who will do it.

And now is the time to do that.

Do it now.

Yeah, right.

Don't be afraid.

Don't be.

I don't know why.

I don't get it.

I don't get why we're so afraid to.

I don't know, just been beaten into our heads I guess from time we.

Were little maybe probably.

I mean we were all grew up with most of us at this point we're boomer parents and we're Gen X.

Very quiet.

And now when you, when you wake up the Gen Xers.

Good luck.

Sorry you guys are in trouble.

Those people have been waiting so let's get into what we call our spicy topic of the day and let's just kind of go, we touched on footprint.

It's spicy.

What are companies doing wrong?

We don't have to say names, but what are we doing wrong in the optics space that we should do better?

I don't know.

Probably.

There's.

There's so many great options out there.

It's.

It's hard to kind of pinpoint what somebody's doing wrong.

I guess generally my thoughts are listen to the customers and then try to peel back the nonsense that they're claiming that they want versus what they're actually going to buy.

An example in our parts business is 10 mm.

Oh, if you had this in 10 mm, I'd buy this thing.

So we made it in 10 mm, get the same.

Oh, if you had it in 10 mm.

Well, I have one.

Oh, that's cool, man.

Hey, thanks for showing me.

And off they go.

So they think that they want some whiz bang something so somebody makes it and it falls flat.

So we are focusing on the core customer and we'll eventually branch out into some more risky things, I guess you could say, as far as, like a product line would go.

Maybe some off the wall design feature or something like that.

Yeah.

It's hard to pinpoint exactly what you brought.

You just hit the topic of all topics.

So this is.

This makes me laugh.

Every time I was at shows, when I was at Faxon, we have like, somebody come up, you need to make this in this oddball caliber because me and 10 of my friends will buy it.

No, sir, we can't do that.

What do you mean?

But then it's exactly what you mean is people will ask for a product and then people get mad.

They're like, why aren't you making XYZ product?

Well, the.

The market doesn't say, I need XYZ product.

Well, me and my friends want to buy XYZ products.

And they'll get a group of people together and they'll all be loud and boisterous, and finally you make XYZ product.

Cool.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah.

For making explosives.

Sell four of them.

Yeah, yeah.

And you made 500.

And they're like.

You're like, yeah, you know, I did it.

What do you want?

Right?

Well, I wanted something different.

What did you want?

This is exactly what you asked for.

Yeah, yeah.

It's always changing.

So you got to really take the good with the bad and figure it out.

And that's what we talk about.

I've talked about this with industry folks.

Is you we talk about all the time.

Everyone's like, oh, the firearms industry doesn't innovate.

They don't innovate.

The minute you innovate or do something different, look at that.

I'm doing that different thing.

All the haters come out of the wood.

Yeah, yeah, Like, I'm sorry.

Like.

And there's been some attempts at some outside of the box thinking one of the big ones that come to mind is the Taurus curve.

Like, yes.

Yeah, yeah, okay.

Outside of the box thinking the gun's curved to conceal better.

Just then everyone's like, nah, this is dumb.

Yeah, it's like, I feel bad for to that.

I will applaud them.

I think they're one of the the best outside of the box thinkers in the industry.

But every time they come out with something, someone's like, like, I remember they did the curve.

Then they did a really, really, really small revolver with like a piece of Lexan or Lexi or whatever.

So you can see the internals.

I'm like, that's cool.

And everyone's like, nah, stupid.

Well, that's kind of cool.

It's kind of cool.

Yeah.

But I like to see that.

I don't know why.

And this is a great example of why we don't do some of that stuff is.

Yeah, everyone's like, innovate, innovate, innovate.

And we're like, no.

Yeah.

Another one for on that topic is the folding Glock.

Do you remember that from years ago?

Remember that guy was pretty cool, the guy that owned the company.

I talked to him a few times.

But yeah, it just, you know, it's innovation, of course.

I mean, you basically cut a Glock in half and made it fold in on itself.

Cool idea.

Engineering stuff was cool to see.

And maybe that's not the product, but eventually down the road, maybe that small idea turns into some next whiz bang thing that somebody actually wants.

Well, I mean, look at the.

Was it the.

Look at the Hudson, like that was a cool idea.

And then they just kind of.

Well, Daniel has brought it back now, but same idea.

It's like, oh, cool.

Whiz bang.

And then either they just can't keep up with demand or yeah, they go out of business.

Yeah, I think there's some product issues there maybe too.

There was a little bit of.

I don't know a lot about it.

But little bit of product issues there.

Yeah.

But yeah, things like that is cool.

That Choppa is.

How do you say it?

The Rhino, that revolver that shoots off the, like the bottom.

That's kind of neat.

I don't, you know, never shot one, but it looks cool.

Cool idea.

Maybe I've shot there.

They're dope.

Yeah, they look sweet.

I just want cool stuff.

Yeah.

That's all I'm asking industry people.

I want cool stuff.

Hey, we're friends.

But that's the, that's the thing is we always ask for cool stuff.

Like if you come out tomorrow with an, like a giant optic because everybody wants big windows.

They're gonna be like, cool.

That's too big.

It's too big.

Yeah.

And then you shrink it.

Well, now that's too small.

Okay, well, where do you want it?

Well, we want big.

Like the last one.

Yeah, we want small.

Yeah.

What is it?

Yeah, maybe we'll make a folding.

Like the Samsung phones that fold.

Maybe we'll make a lens that folds.

Yeah, so you get both.

Yeah, so you get to decide what they, you know, if you're going to go competition, fold it, open the next one.

You.

Yeah, I put an LCD TV on top of your.

Yeah, a 40 inch window.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But that's the, that's the thing.

We always like, we want this and then we can.

Well, really didn't want that.

I thought I wanted it, but turns out I didn't.

No, I'll just take the Glock 19.

I mean, you're not wrong.

I really want this.

I want a polymer frame, but I want the slide of a CZ this.

Then somebody's like, cool, here it is.

Now I just take a clock.

Yeah.

Yeah.

People get wild with some of their ideas, and you got to go where the money's at.

I mean, we're companies to.

We're in business to make money.

Ultimately, you know, if we don't make money.

What do you mean?

Yeah, you don't get to buy anything because I can't make it.

So, you know, got to really make sure your R and D dollars are going to where the money's at.

You're trying to make money.

What do you mean?

I know.

Secrets out of the bag.

Breaking the fourth wall.

You're going to bl.

Well, that's the thing.

I think as a society, we always want stuff, but we don't want to pay for it.

We want somebody else to do it.

Hey, you've been to show.

Hey, I got an idea for you, buddy.

Every show.

I got an idea.

I got this idea for you.

Cool.

I don't think that product's for me, but go for It.

Try it out.

Like, yeah, a lot of people have these ideas.

They're scared to do it.

Go do it.

Yeah, go, go do it.

Have fun.

Yep.

Try it.

That's.

Take risk in life.

You have to.

That's how you start a business.

And we always would tell those guys, hey, listen, if someone was serious about a product, it's not for us.

We're not going to spend our efforts on it.

Just doesn't fit what we're doing right now.

But if you find somebody that makes it, or I can connect you with people that could make it, we'll sell it, I'll retail it and help you out in that way.

But very few make it beyond the, hey, I got this idea, which I wish more people would take their idea and turn it into something.

I mean, we'd have much better stuff if everybody.

Oh, yeah.

Could do it.

We have a lot of dumb stuff, but you got to get the dumb stuff out of the way for the good stuff to.

To come through.

Well, a great example of an idea.

And again, this is not for everybody, but this is my, my.

This is.

I really love the guy who came up with the idea.

He's got a great story.

Is that pen gun, do you see Liberty pen gun?

Yeah.

Such a cool idea.

Yeah.

Such a cool product.

Like, he went out and did it, like.

Yes.

Is it, Is it practical?

Probably not, but it's cool.

Super cool.

Oh, yeah.

Well, I shot it at goals and I love it.

Even though it's like, I'm like, what am I going to do with this thing?

No, it's a talking point.

It's a cool thing.

The story behind it is super cool.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, if I, If I ever get kidnapped, I want that pen gun with me.

Yeah.

You know.

Do you see the belt, too?

Yeah, yeah.

With the speed loader or whatever.

Yeah, that was awesome.

But it's people like that who come out with those cool ideas and where everyone's going to go, there's two sides of the fence to that.

It's like, either it's super cool or, yeah, it's not for me.

Yeah.

But I'm in that party of.

That's super cool.

Yeah.

And I want to see more things like that that are just kind of like, I mean, can only have so many Glock clones.

We can only have so many 1911 variants.

We can only have like, I want.

Everyone's like, I want cool new products.

Yeah.

You know, get your bases covered.

Then go get a pen gun.

Get a pen gun.

Brought to you by John Farner.

Yes.

Brought to you by me.

Mark, if you're listening to this, get a pen.

The owner, he's got a great story.

You did you talk to him at goals?

I didn't talk to him at goals, but I talked to him at another event.

He's got such a cool story of.

I think he's.

We're going to do some work with them.

But the pen gun, just the story behind it, the wood, his, his whole story is cool.

So speaking of stories, let's get back to you.

So we know that you mentioned the Omega is your top selling product.

What else have you been coming out with lately?

That's been kind of the.

The hot new whiz bang.

Yeah.

So the granite we got sitting there, that's our competition window granite.

So it's an MOS footprint.

So that's again one of those things we were talking about.

It's its own pattern.

Glock decided that they are perfection.

And the MOS is that.

So instead of having an adapter plate, we thought there's not a ton of people making a Glock MOS footprint.

So that's what we did.

So that right now is the competition window.

We have a carry window.

If the competition's too large, we have the carry.

It's a little bit smaller.

It's a big window.

It's a big window, guys.

It's a really big window.

It's cool.

It's a big window.

Yeah.

So geared towards competition, but you could carry it.

We do our own destruction test too.

Bob does all those and he just ran one and he was texting us some video while he was doing it.

He's like, I haven't broke this yet.

And I've done six foot drop tests, thrown it across concrete, all the different things.

You know, beat a nail into a board almost.

You know, I don't know.

He does all kinds of stuff with them.

And then he eventually got it to break because it's aluminum and it's glass, it's going to break.

But.

So it's, dare I say, the most rugged red dot we have right now, even with that gigantic window.

So.

But that's the new one.

We have some other ones coming out.

This won't launch till probably, what, January or so, this video.

So we have an RMSC enclosed emitter.

So that's in production right now.

I'm hoping to have it.

I'll definitely have it before shot show, but I was hoping to have it before Christmas.

I'm not sure if that, that'll happen or not.

And we have some other stuff coming.

Five to 25 rifle scope, you know, kind of a long range, working on a shoot, super short lpvo.

What else?

Couple other RMSC footprints, big windows.

There's a lot of guns like a Canik that are coming with, you know, full size gun that have the, the small footprint because the slides are so narrow.

So we're, we've developed a large window with a small footprint for the competition guys or the full size firearms guys.

Yeah.

And the avidity arms too would fit into that category for us.

Kind of a full size frame with a slender slide.

So a couple of those coming and then we'll do a granite for RMR as well because that's, that's kind of the Glock 19 of the footprints is, is the RMR style footprint.

So we'll develop that.

That's kind of what we got right now.

I'm always looking at thermal and stuff, but I don't know a whole lot about it.

I'm kind of super fresh there, so I got to see what that looks like.

I mean a close emitter pharmacy.

That's pretty dope.

Yeah, it's a good one.

I'm excited.

Yeah, you've made me excited before I forget.

Bob, do you need anything?

You good daddy?

If you need anything, let me know.

Nice.

Yeah, I had to throw it in there somewhere.

Yeah, yeah.

There's a backstory behind this.

It's an inside joke.

Sorry folks.

That was such a good time.

It was a great time.

Screwed with each other at goals to talking.

Yeah, and that's, that's.

We touched on it for a bit.

But that's the fun part about our community and being.

We talked about actually this last night how the firearms community looks really large, but it's really small and tight knit and you're like you said you hadn't met a bad person yet and that's because all the bad people get kicked out.

It's true though.

Yeah, it must be.

I'm sure there's a couple sour apples or whatever out there, but for the most part, everybody I've met in this industry, I've been here 11 years, so I still feel like I'm the new guy, but I've been around just as long as most of the everybody else.

But yeah, it's been a great community and tons of support.

I mean if you have a question about your product, you can pick up the phone and find somebody within two or three phone calls like we were talking about last night.

If you're trying to get ahold of somebody, we're tight enough that you can get that done.

And that's the thing, folks.

We are approachable.

We're very personable.

But that's the thing when you get it.

A lot of people ask me all the time, like, how do I get into the space?

Or, oh, I just got in this space.

What do I do?

And I always go, well, go network, talk to people, become friends.

Because once you know one person, you know 20 people.

And once you become friends with them, like, we brought a ton last night, came by, you're like, oh, I remember.

I know you from pv.

And we talked, and he's one of those people where I'll call and be like, hey, I need contact at so and so my contact left.

And that's the other thing.

Like, people move around so much in this industry that you could be like, if you were to move to Hollow sun tomorrow, for some reason, I don't know why you would move over there.

But yeah, you know, it's the same thing.

Like, okay, now I got a guy for house, and I don't have a guy over at Gideon anymore.

Let me call so and so.

And then they'd be like, oh, yeah, Bob over there.

Gideon, you know, and that's the cool part about our.

Our spaces.

We move around, but it's like, what's the game?

Five Degrees of Kevin Bacon?

Yeah, it's the five degrees of the gun industry, you know.

Yeah.

But a person who knows, right?

And even these, like, you know, air quotes, famous gun tuber and personalities in the gun space, firearms space, all the ones that I've ran into are super personable.

Like, I remember the first time I met Rob Pincus.

I remember watching him on TV whenever I was a little bit younger and, you know, on the Outdoor Channel and all that stuff, so.

But he's about as regular dude as can be.

We met him at the Gun Makers Match, which we have a lot of fun at, but.

And Rob and I are great friends.

Years later, and I see him all over the place.

And who else ton, you know, last night, I've never spoken to him, but I mean, we were there for a while at dinner and just cutting it up and having a great time.

So everybody at Brandon Herrera ran into at Shot show, and somebody I was with knew him, and so we just kind of stopped and talked to him for a minute.

I mean, all these guys are super personable.

Well, that's the.

Here.

My example is I met Sean when I was working at Faxon.

I can call him.

I called him the other day, and we're.

They're friends, like, some of my friends and people, they're like, you know.

You know John Patton?

Yeah, I know John Patton.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'll call him right now.

Here's John Patton, right?

What?

No way.

Yeah, yeah, he's a friend.

Like, Tactical Toolbox is a really good friend of mine.

And so he lives down the road for him.

So it was Tactical Toolbox.

Technical considerations.

There's so many tacticals.

Right.

And Mr.

Big Kid, they're all friends of mine.

So I'm like, hey, come over for Thanksgiving.

So we're.

We're sitting there, Thanksgiving, and we take a picture, and people are like, wait, you know Tactical Toolbox, right?

Yeah, he said my house for things.

What?

Yeah, they're friends now.

Like, again, growing up.

And I grew up in the YouTube.

We call it the YouTube era because I was just.

When YouTube started, I was just going into college, so all the gun tubers and stuff was fresh, new.

And then going into the industry, like, you'd be like, hey, these are my.

The guys I watch all the time.

Then you get to talk to.

Now you're friends and you're like.

It went from like, oh, my God, fangirling over.

I've told Patton this story.

I was, like, fangirling over Patton at a show the one year to now.

I just.

Literally two days ago, I called him.

Hey, buddy.

How's it been?

Just to catch up.

It's crazy to think how we are people.

Yeah.

And it's not hard to be like, as long as you're not creepy.

Yeah, please don't be creepy.

You can come up and give me a hug or just.

Yeah, he likes that.

Don't be creepy.

Yeah, no, you can be creepy.

The guy last night.

Yeah.

Well, it's the same thing.

Kaylee, who's a co host, who's on maternity leave right now, she.

We.

We.

We filmed in Myrtle Beach.

We came up in the elevator at the hotel we stayed at, and that's the same hotel you were staying at last night.

And I got there early, and they wouldn't let me check in because it was under her name.

She comes upstairs and she's talking to this guy.

It's the security guard for the hotel.

And she's talking to him, and I'm like, do you.

Do you know him?

Did you meet him?

She goes, no.

He watches the show.

Nice.

And I go, you've been recognized because it's so weird and awkward.

Yeah.

Like, I don't care.

Yeah, Just say hi.

Yeah.

Walking around some of our shows, man.

I get some young guys that have seen me on different.

I don't even know, YouTube or whatever, and I'll kind of hear him behind me like, hey, I think that's that guy.

I'm like, there's not talking about me, you know?

And then they'll like, tap me, like, hey, man, are you Jordan?

Yeah.

Hey, how's it going?

Nice to meet you.

Oh, man, I saw you on whatever, you know, this podcast or something, so it doesn't happen all the time.

It's happened, you know, maybe two or three times over the years, but it's the craziest thing that total strangers recognize any of us.

And, you know.

Oh, it's.

It's.

It was weird the first time we went to the.

The Gathering.

Yeah.

And this is right after we did our episode with Jamin, the owner of psa.

I got stopped a hundred times by people.

Hey.

Hey.

How'd it go?

Oh, you talked to.

It's like, yeah.

At first it was like, hi, Right?

You know, you kind of think you know me.

Yeah.

But after a while, it's.

It's become that.

It's just like, hey, yeah, how you doing?

Good thing.

Thanks for watching.

Thanks for being.

I was out with Sean told me the story.

Sean was out with Patton in Colorado at Costco, and somebody's like, are you John?

Patton goes, no, I'm not that guy.

The guy's like, oh, okay.

I thought.

He goes, no, he goes, yeah, that's awesome.

But it's cool.

And that's the cool part.

Like, we're approaching.

Just don't be.

You're not awkward.

Yeah.

But come.

Like, I see people at shows, and people stop and say hi, and we'll see it all the time with it with.

Even with gun tubers, you know.

Hey, how you doing?

Just like, my favorite.

My favorite story, my first shot show, Jerry Mitchell, like, came by the booth, and Jerry Mitchulek is a God to most.

Most of the people that got an industry.

So this is my first shot show with a company like Gun Ho Kid.

Yeah.

So I just walked up to him like I knew him forever.

I'm like, hey, Jerry, how you been, buddy?

Good to see you.

Yeah.

I come here to talk about this.

Cool.

Hey, do you mind?

I'm going to talk to you about this.

You mind checking this?

I want to get your opinion on this product that we.

We had a lightweight AR super.

It was like, under five pounds, like, Jerry.

Hey, this is our.

Our competition, lightweight ar.

Can I get your opinion on this?

Real quick, because.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

So I showed it to him, sitting there talking.

And, you know, Kurt.

Kurt was in charge of marketing at Faxon.

And I turn around, and they are all jaws on the ground because the new guy's talking to Jerry.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And they're freaking out.

And I'm just.

Because I'm just per.

I'm a personable person, but because I treated him like he was a human, he's just, yeah, I want to hang out.

And then I got a tap on the shoulder from somebody and pulled out real quick.

But it's like, I've been talking to Jerry for, like, three minutes.

That's awesome.

And I get a tap on the shoulder from somebody.

Get out of here, new guy.

Get out of here.

Screwing this up.

Well, no, Jerry and I were actually having.

We were talking.

We were talking about bulkier groups, and he was, like, really into it.

We were both into it.

And I got the tap on the shoulder, like, you need to go.

You're the new guy.

Yeah.

All right, cool.

I had Jerry all ready to go.

That's awesome.

But that's the thing, everybody.

If you approach it the right way, like, we're just people.

Yeah.

I don't even.

Like, when I met.

When I met Herrera, I was just like, hey, how's it going?

Good to meet you.

Good to see you.

And the one that.

There was a couple who have been, like, really taken aback by it.

Like, you don't know who I.

No, dude, I know who you are.

I'm just being like, hey, good to see you.

Like, yeah, cool.

Like, have we met before?

No.

Yeah.

But you're just a guy that.

You're just a guy.

His pants on, one leg at a time.

You're cool people.

Yeah.

Like, same thing with Oias.

I fangirled over.

O.

He came in here, now we're friends.

It's just the same thing.

Like, yeah, you're the reason why I buy things.

He goes, what?

Yeah, you and your old gun magic.

You wizard.

Yeah.

Love you, buddy.

But it's.

It's.

That's the cool part.

We're not all old white people, like we said, and we want everybody to be in the community.

That's a big thing that a lot of people.

I'll talk again.

Go into that class, like, the.

The very liberal people who are in there, they were, like, taken aback about how nice we were and how genuine we are and how everyone thinks we're the devil.

Right?

Like, and how actually accepting we are of all walks of life to come together.

Like, from the water, boy.

We're not the devil, mama.

Not, though.

That's the thing.

Yeah.

We're all walks of life.

We all have probably all grew up in the same experience.

You know, we have similar experiences and things like that.

And, you know, that's the cool part about the community part.

And that's.

Why would I say, like, now is the time to continue growing that grass roots?

It's because we need to continue to grow that community.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think we have more in common than.

Than differences.

So.

Yeah, we all like shooting guns.

Yeah.

Do it more often.

Yeah.

Do it now.

Right now.

Pause this desktop.

Go to desktop.

Pause this and go.

You're trying to pull over.

Go to the range now.

Go now.

Do it.

You're in Chicago.

You just roll your window.

Oh, God, no.

Well, on that note, Jordan, where can people find you?

Find the company socials, all that fun stuff.

I appreciate, again, thank you for being on.

Enjoy your gift from Palmetto.

I certainly will.

Thank you.

Thank you again to Palmetto for sponsoring and to all the sponsors.

But yeah, go ahead.

GideonOptics.com all the socials, X Instagram, Facebook, Gideon Optics.

You heard the man.

Gideon optics.com Go check them out.

Get yourself an Omega.

Highly recommend.

Really love the Omega.

I've got it on my prodigy.

Fantastic.

Optic again.

Another home run from you guys.

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