Welcome, I'm Jess McLean. This is Blueprints of Disruption, a podcast that looks to amplify

the work of activists and organizers on the ground. Sometimes the hardest part of doing

this job is finding people on the front lines with any bandwidth to spare. Media relations

isn't always on the forefront of our minds when we start building around issues. You know,

our priorities are on other things, building capacity. organizing actions, and quite often

going up against some sort of state apparatus. Our hands are full. Planning and pulling off

a communication strategy on top of all of that is a daunting task, especially when you consider

the state of the media these days. But if our message isn't heard and our stories aren't

told in ways that relate back to the cause, how will we be successful? Well, this is where

our next guest comes in. Now as I always do, I'll let Gur introduce himself properly, but

as I'm sure you can guess, he is a media guy. And when it comes to social justice movements

in the Toronto area, Gur and the movement Media Hub have been absolutely instrumental in amplifying

the good fight. So he's here to share some of the tactics they've been using to shape the

narratives, whether that be through the larger outlets or by utilizing resources within

the movements themselves. He'll also talk a little bit about the role the commodification

of media has played in all of this and some of the other obstacles and bad actors he's

often up against. I was excited to talk to Ger because our missions are so very similar.

Both of us are convinced that if we could just get more people to see and hear the work being

done and the ideas people have for a better way, we'd be that much closer to the world

we're aiming for. So be sure to check out the show notes for more on the Movement Media Hub,

as well as some of the great interviews they helped us score. You'll also find ways you

can support the work we do here at Blueprints, like subscribing to our Substack account,

or maybe even becoming a monthly patron. But first, my discussion with Gurr. Okay, please

introduce yourself to the audience. Yes. Hi everyone. I am Gurr Savar. I am a spokesperson

for the Jews Say No to Genocide Coalition. I'm also a member of Independent Jewish Voices

and I am also the executive director of the Movement Media Hub. And we want to talk to

you about all of those things. Amazing. Let's do it. do it. So we're going to save the little

bit of hot water that is brewing for a little bit later, but let's unpack the Movement Media

Hub. I have been blessed by some great interviews thanks to the Media Hub. Out of the blue, you

appeared in my DMs and were like, would you like to interview these people? And it was

the refuse NICs. I was like, yes, please. And there's been a handful of really great episodes

you've helped put together. They're like gifts. And I wonder, how do you do this? What do

you do? How do you get in touch with almost everybody? You seem to know I'm looking through

your feed and I'm wondering, are you involved with all of these organizations? So, know,

Cole's notes, what is Media Movement Hub? What do you guys do? Yeah. So the Movement Media

Hub is a, in short, it's a public relations agency for our movements. That's fascinating.

For leftists. leftist movements in Toronto and Canada and beyond, looking to uplift historically

marginalized voices and get them through what is a really painful traditional media landscape.

And not just traditional, but also working with, it's an entire ecosystem, traditional

social digital media. So really helping. Organized communities and movements and organizations

think about their media strategy and how to put their voice forward in a way that people

stop and listen to what it is they have to say. anyone who's worked on campaigns, especially

social justice campaigns and the whatnot, they'll know how difficult that task is, especially

when you're so focused on the action itself. building capacity, dealing with politicians,

all of the pressing items. And I know because I try to interview these folks who are in the

thick of it and they just don't have the time to stress about their media. Perhaps they've

never even thought of a strategy for media, let alone the time to get all that great work

out there. And that's very frustrating because almost all activism relies on word of mouth

of getting the message out there. And our messages are everything they don't, they, know, mainstream

media don't really cater to. You have an uphill battle. Yes. Yes. Yes. Now I think you bring

up a really good point. Most, you know, grassroots organizations are constrained in time and resources.

So that alone makes media building media relationships and interacting with media a challenge, because

it does take a decent amount of time and resources. But then secondly, you also hit another important

point, which is that the media ecosystem is not inherently friendly to grassroots organizations

and movements. And so I think what makes the movement media hub very different than a

traditional, you public relations agency is that we spend a lot of time not just thinking

about how the media ecosystem functions, but even more importantly, how it dysfunctions.

So, you know, spend a lot of time thinking about how the media acts as a gatekeeper,

you know, controlling which stories and perspectives reach the public and how certain voices, especially

those from racialized communities who are also most often targeted by the state, by state

oppression get excluded. I spent a lot of time thinking about how the media is selective in

its coverage, right? It covers, only certain aspects of our movements and organizations

and actions while ignoring others, which obviously leads to an incomplete and distorted public

understanding of our issues. And then also think about how the media misframes and misrepresents

our movements in ways that can materially undermine our messaging and credibility. So as we all

know, media loves to focus on the more sensational aspects rather than the substance. And then

we most definitely spend time thinking about just the sheer racism and bias that is so

deeply interwoven in the traditional media ecosystem, from top to bottom, from the ownership

layer down to the reporting layer and every other layer in between. We spend all this

time thinking about all these ways that the system dysfunctions so that we can hack it.

It's about going in eyes wide open and realizing that You know, this system sucks. The traditional

media in particular, this is terrible, right? It's awful. It's awful in so many different

ways. But fundamentally, it's a beast that operates 24-7, 365. It needs our content. It needs us

as much as we need it. And as long as we're eyes wide open about you know, how it functions

and how it dysfunctions, can materially work around it and get our stories told. So yeah,

that's what we're doing, or trying to do at least. Do you find a lot of what you have to

do is reactionary? I mean, we never really want to solely be reactionary, but the environment,

I want you to hack it, but it's become really unpredictable. Yes. So first, let's talk about

how reactionary you've got to be because sometimes the story is actually short lived, right? How

do you make sure a voice gets in there in time to be a part of the story while people are

paying attention? Perfect timing for this question. We had a crazy rally, pro-Palestine rally this

past weekend in Toronto. Toronto, 11 people were arrested and there's probably no more

difficult habit to break with the media than their desire and tendency to be basically,

what's the word I'm looking for? It's not transcribers, stenographers for the Toronto Police Services.

And so I've been working really closely with the Legal Support Committee and trying to

think about how we're starting to think about more and more about how, you know, how this

narrative gets woven. And one of the ways it starts to get woven is by what has been a long

standing tradition here, traditional media being stenographers for TPS press releases.

So TPS issues their press release and that is like, I'm literally. today, all morning, have

been dealing with publications that have literally reprinted that press release word for word

and not offered our side of the equation. And so we have, we, you know, we're aware of this,

we're playing around with different ways to hack it. That means being on, you know, being

in the faces of these reporters, of these editors. of these institutions every which possible

way. And we're, it's a work in progress. We're experimenting with that. And in other instances

that have happened over the past two years of the genocide, we've had numerous instances

where something happens and we have to react immediately. We will draft immediate press

releases, draft. video content from protests to show what actually happened, create press

conferences out of those videos, create immediate press conferences at TPS headquarters, do whatever

we have to do to make sure that the media here knows that there is not just one side to the

story. And more importantly, that 99%, know, 99.999 % Let's make just make it 100 to call

it safe of what TPS says is a lie. So that's been a continuous work in progress. That's

frustrating because the media has that experience that you have with knowing TPS has put out

false statements. There's been like layering examples time and time again and almost no

disclaimer yet every time we get a death toll. from Gaza, it's always going according to the

Hamas run health ministry, right? But yeah, the police's story has often gone unchecked

and reporters, we've given them some grace, at least when we interview journalists, they

explain there's a tight turnaround, they're scrambling, they don't have time to get any

sources beyond these reports. Do you try to make it as easy as possible for mainstream

media to like know that there's plenty of, you know, Palestinian voices or voices from the

movement ready and available for comment? Should they need it all day every day? We're literally

no excuse. They have no excuse. And look, I fully recognize and we fully recognize right

that and I'm not speaking on behalf of the legal support committee. I'm speaking on behalf of

myself, but fully recognize that. know, media is part of the, you know, imperialist state

apparatus. So there's, there is a limit to, um, to what we can do with traditional media.

You know, part of the movement media hubs work, you know, is based on the fact that it's a

beast that needs to be fed and we need to feed it. Uh, we cannot leave it unfed because any

moment we leave it unfed. It will be fed by Zionists, for example, when it comes to the

pro-Palestine movement. We are undoing or working to undo a 76 year, you know, headstart that

the Zionist lobby has here in terms of training the media. The media here has a Zionist default,

narrative default. So we, know, so that's the field we're playing with and trying to

materially undo, but it's... It's being aware. It's also just being aware of like what the

limitations are of this thing, but not letting it completely go. Um, because we can't let

it go. The reality is it's still the dominant way that the average Canadian gets their

information and it still affects the zeitgeist. Um, that way. I held a live stream once and

it was just a panel talking about, um, whether or not, can craft the narrative. How much

energy should you spend on trying to manage, especially mainstream media's narrative or

image of the movement? I was kind of on the side of a lot of it is futile, but I more

meant in planning your behavior and planning your actions and not worrying about how, you

know, the Zionists will train the media to try to represent you because that will happen

anyway. But to stay true to like your words, your story and just kind of keep those blinders

up. But I think in reality, it's a bit of a balance. I just get so frustrated with all

these. The way that they don't just train the media to talk a certain way, it starts to train

on us if we let it, right? we start to take that into account and trying to come off a

certain way, peaceful is one of the selling features that we try or to couch our language

around the ceasefire because like that was more palatable at the time and whatnot. And thankfully

there's people that are a little more knowledgeable on this beast. how to feed it and whatnot.

think it just, am a bit perplexed by it. So I'm very grateful people like you and your

team exist. Did you do this work? Like, what are you by trade? Like this can, have you always

done this? Did you do this before October 7th? Yes. I have, yeah, I've been in media, working

in public relations for most of my professional career, both in government and New York

City government, New York City Hall. I was a senior policy and communications advisor to

the speaker of the city council of New York. And then I worked in corporate PR for many

years. So have a good understanding of how the corporate beast works. But always, you know,

have been kind of activist minded my entire life. And yeah, this is this is definitely

where I'm supposed to be. A lot of people have to kind of work those jobs that might teach

you skills and pay the bills, but they kind of eat away at your soul. Hardcore. So it warms

my heart when you say that, because although I haven't found a way to make this gig pay,

I couldn't do all those other things, especially right now. I imagine you are a very, very

busy person. Yes, indeed. I want to go back. to the idea of training the media a little

bit and the way that the Zionist lobby does it using lawsuits as well. Not just pestering

newsrooms, they have openly declared lawfare. I think that's kind of ironic. They've named

the lawfare project the way that they have, like just I mean, mask off, that's the stage

we're in anyway. And we are going to weaponize the law to silence people. You are no, you

have experience in this. Do you wanna? Yes. Share with us what you can anyway, Ger. Yeah,

no, it's, you know, we recently, myself and the Jews Say No to Genocide Coalition, recently

received a libel notice from the lawfare project for a comment I had made on on CTV on behalf

of the coalition about the Nova exhibition that was in town and that comment was you know

basically to the effect of calling the Nova exhibition the grotesque spectacle of selective

grief that it is and further saying, talking about how it's a cynical tool being used to

to manufacture permission for Israel's atrocities in Palestine. And what I also mentioned on

there is that the exhibition was a tool to bring prophets into an organization called

the Lawfare Project, which is which mounted the exhibit. And the Lawfare Project is claiming

that this misled people into thinking that they are violating their nonprofit status by

mounting the NOVA exhibition or by pocketing profits. So we clarified recently on Instagram

that the Lawfare Project is an American nonprofit organization, the Lawfare Project Canada, is

a charity that put on the Nova exhibition and raised money to do so, over $230,000 through

its Canada helps page, and that every donation got a tax rebate, which means that part of

the Nova exhibition was paid for by Canadian taxpayers. And as far as we know, neither group

is a for-profit entity, and we don't... you know, and that we don't have reason to believe

that this exhibit or fundraiser violated any rules regarding their nonprofit or charitable

status. So, yeah, that's, that's what happened. And it's fascinating, fascinating process.

it really is is a slap suit. And they're pretty open. What did they say? I had a couple quotes

that you say noted a genocide. mean, you probably drafted the tweet. Yeah, they have a Yeah,

their founder and executive director, Brooke Goldstein said that their goals include using

legal action to go on the offensive and to make the enemy, you know, quote, make the enemy

pay to hold them accountable and to send a message, a deterrent message that similar acts and

actions such as those that they engage in will result in massive punishments. They sound

like great people. I mean, I don't know what we can say about them, but I bet they don't

already say about themselves just quite openly. And slap suits aren't allowed in Ontario though.

So we will see how that unfolds. Like I wish you the best of luck, but. I imagine this

is probably not your first rodeo in terms of, you know, if you're going to be out there as

a spokesperson for some very rebellious folks. mean, good people. aren't, that is not slander.

Um, we love that about them. Yes. I imagine you are on a lot of people's lists, but also,

also, how did you get on CTV to... Slam the Nova exhibit because like this is kind of sacred

ground for media. This is October 7th It has a whole narrative that seems to be set the

Prime Minister visited this exhibit It was it was a national media thing. Sorry. I don't

have the language around it there But it was a big to do and in the middle of that you

managed to get up there and and call it what it was that kind of made me smirk Yeah, and

I imagine that's why you got this yeah notice that was a bigger stage than they would have

preferred you you say that on I imagine so yeah kudos and that's the idea right there's a

lot of those never would have heard anybody probably even Question the narrative around

October 7th. Yeah, right on CTV. That's pretty a vanilla crowd probably. Yeah. No, that's

that's exactly the idea Yeah, I we treated the Nova by we I'm saying the Juicy Note, a

genocide coalition really thought about how we wanted to go, you know, to talk about the

Nova exhibition. And so, yeah, we put out a media statement that we had crafted. The message

we were sending to media in advance of the Nova exhibition is that be careful how you cover

this. So not only did Jews Say No put out a statement, but the Movement Media Hub put a

do's and don'ts guide to how to cover the Nova exhibition for media. And so we really went

all out to basically let the media know that we're watching them and that they're not gonna

get away with, again, the one-sided Zionist story, Zionist narrative. What did that look

like? Like, what did those notices look like? What should they have been careful about? Yeah,

it good stuff. I imagine the media gets so many of those types of notices from the lobbyists,

right? The Zionist lobbyists going, I hear there's a Palestinian art exhibit coming out

or anything that they get a sniff of. And it's just like, they probably don't wait to be

reactionary all the time, either. That's right. No, think that's exactly right. They don't.

So yeah, it was things like, you know, had a section Historical context, do foreground

the historical context, including the 1948 Nakba, the 17-year siege of Gaza, and ongoing displacement

wrought by Zionist policies. Don't treat the Nova Festival reenactment as a standalone moment

of tragedy. Do call out these simulations as propaganda tools designed to bypass critical

thought and manufacturer consent for ongoing genocide. Don't describe the immersive. sirens,

sand, and shock tactics as quote unquote innovative memorial theater. Do seek testimony from Palestinian

survivors, Palestinian scholars, and solidarity organizers who can speak to lived realities

behind Israel's siege. Don't only interview actors, curators, or organizations linked to

pro-exhibition backers. Like, do label these actions precisely, apartheid, ethnic cleansing,

unlawful occupation, siege and genocide? Don't use euphemisms like conflict, clashes or troubled

past to describe Israel's dispossession of Palestinians. So yeah, there were like, you know, 13 of

them, do's and don'ts, 12 of them that we gave them. I find that fascinating because if they

were in journalism school... the folks that you're sending these notices to, that would

essentially be the guidelines, the standards that are supposed to be set for a news story.

You get at least two sources for and against, right? Both sides of the story. The media is

supposed to be like just an open book, right? A telling of what is happening. Obviously

that it would be naive for me to think that it actually operates that way, but just to

kind of give them. their basics, right? This is right back to them. Did you get a response

from anyone? you feel? Yeah, did. Look, we did the same thing around covering October

7th anniversary. We did a do's and don'ts. And in both instances, we got responses from

reporters who are thankful for the reminder. Not the reminder to necessarily show both

sides, but the reminder of just like a lot of them. One of the things we have to remember

is that reporters are like, they're dealing with a million stories at any given moment

in time. They're not deep on any story. They're being assigned a story, especially nowadays

in media. There's such a commodification of reporters. They literally nowadays just come

in, clock in, get their two or three assignments for the day, and they're off to the races to

like get it done. No time for deep dives. Not at all. And so largely I find reporters thankful

for the reminders of like, the points they should be thinking about. But also from our perspective,

it obviously was like, how can you not have already been thinking about this stuff? But

yeah, no, we have to continuously remind ourselves that we're not, we're deep, they're super

shallow, super, super shallow, especially mainstream media. Well, that's a great example of you

feeding the machine. you know, ahead of time, here's the notes, copy paste. We don't care.

We will never sue you for plagiarism from our statements. Like just run with it. Yeah.

Doing the homework for them. Yes. But that's the reality. We wish you didn't have to do

that. We wish people didn't have to dedicate their time to that, but that is the reality

of how to hack it. Yes. That's one example of how to hack it. That's right. Knowing that

on the other end, there's honest reporting that's like, you know, bombing these people left and

right. You mean honest reporting, not actual honest reporting, but the website, honest reporting

on actual honest reporting. Yes. yeah. Exactly. No, but they are, mean, they're, they are

the hammer that's been coming at these guys for years. And that has really worked really

hard to train these guys. And one of the great things I think right now that we're seeing

with dishonest reporting Canada is that they are losing their grip, right? They're realizing

that In fact, just over the past few months, they've had such an upsurge in alerts that

they've been sending to media outlets. And it's obvious that they are losing control of the

narrative. They realize they're losing control of the narrative. They realize that people

are starting to not give a shit what they have to say. And people know the game, right? People,

think one of the, what's happened over the past two years is that the Zionist playbook

has been laid bare so that now, The everyday, you know, John and Jane knows what the Zionist

playbook looks like. And it centers around the idea of calling people anti-Semitic for everything

under the sun. Yeah, they've lost ground on that one completely, but a lot of their talking

points, folks like you and other people within the movement have done a great job using social

media to provide counter talking points. to the public. The media, mean, that's an extra

step, but just being able to refute those most basic ones, and they're very old. although

they had a 76 year head start, they haven't really adapted all that much. They've just

really kind of been forced to go a little bit more bare and brutal. And that people see

for what it is. I mean, what they do with it is something else. It does make me smile when

you say that they're kind of scrambling. What do their alerts look like? What are they sending

to the media? Do you ever get these? Yeah, they send these almost daily, multiple times a day,

multiple times a week alerts to media institutions, basically saying, hey, this story, this reporter

fucked up their story because they didn't repeat our pro-Israel lines the way we like

to hear them. They were literally make, they've gotten people fired. They've gotten corrections

made. Like they've hammered these institutions so badly over the past many years that we know

story after story of reporters and editors basically being, don't want, know, like they will take

reporters off of stories because they don't want to deal with the backlash that comes from

honest reporting and their base of users. It's a shame, obviously a massive shame on the institutions

that they bent to that pressure and didn't really stand up to protect their reporters.

It's beyond shame. It's actually criminal. And I hope that a lot of them get held to

account when all is said and done because they have been a massive part of manufacturing consent

for this genocide. Legitimizing it, yeah. Yeah. What a beast to be up against, honestly. Yeah,

indeed. What do you spend your days doing? Are you on the phone constantly? Are you in front

of the camera constantly? You know, it's mostly back end work. So dealing with different organizations,

different individuals across different organizations, helping them either strategize or put together

press conferences, you know, or reaching out to reporters, pitching. Whatever the need

of the day is, it's what I'm doing. So today, this morning, the need has been to literally,

you know, go after publication and not even just morning. This started even last night

and this weekend is to go publication by publication and basically say, Hey fuckers, you can't,

you can't just reprint TPS press releases. I don't know how many times we have to tell

you this. You can't just be stenographers. There is, this is not the only story in town. We

have visual evidence, we have videos, we have history on our side that TPS is not a legit

actor. Um, and you need to start reporting this shit. And so, you know, it's a bunch

of corrections that have gotten made and are getting made. It's so this is part of the training.

I realize this is not going to fix things overnight, but we're going to stay in their faces until

they start acting different. One morning you spent it sending voice notes over from the

Dala to me from Dr. G. I was very appreciative of that because technology failed us, but

by hell or high water, I wanted to patch something together. So I do, I very much appreciate

that. I can't tell you how many times I spend being a middle person in between people, like

either getting them scheduled for interviews or. passing back and forth voice notes from

the Handala, whatever it takes to get the story done and to fill the airwaves. And ideally

then to make sure that that story gets told the way we want it to get told. I meant to

ask you this after kind of the last discussion there about the pressures put on media to train

them from the other side, you know. And it made me think of Trump's recent lawsuits.

against media outlets. He was successful in getting a settlement from CBS, believe. Acronyms

befuddle me so I may get that wrong. And now he's launched another one, another like $10

billion lawsuit or something ridiculous. This feels along the same sort of lines because

of the commodification of media. Yes, it's criminal that they don't stand up for truth and they're

reporters, but like that isn't what they're worried about, right? They are worried about

turning the dollar, avoiding lawsuits, avoiding any kind of financial headache. And now, you

know, we're starting this, well, maybe not in Canada, but the precedent of politicians now,

I mean, the president himself, you know, suing media outlets for reporting on him. Yeah, no,

it's you hit the nail on the head. Trump is a lawfare master. has literally, he spent

his entire life, not just the presidency, that's how he's built his entire career is

using leveraging lawfare. You would know from New York, yes? From your time in New York.

Yeah, it's literally what he did all the time. And to your point, it is that lawfare that

has caused the commodification of reporters. It is that lawfare that has driven media to

be where it is today. You know, it used to be that if a reporter had an idea of a story or

like investigative reporting, like that is pretty much gone. Like there's not a lot of that left

in traditional media because of their fear of lawfare. So it's, yeah, it's all super

painful to witness, but My optimistic side is that this world is evolving exactly how

it needs to evolve in the sense that mainstream media will play whatever minimal role it plays

and other forms of media are rising and the world will soon catch up and understand. The

average person will catch up and understand that mainstream media is not the only source.

That shift is happening. It's just being able to provide an alternate source, right? And

getting the reach as a content creator. I know that frustration of having a story that you

just want everyone to hear, not because it's coming from your show, just because like, this

is need to know information. I tell my mom about the Handala and the Freedom Coalition

and she's like, ooh, you get to interview. That sounds like really big news. Why am I

not seeing this on regular news? Like she believes me. She doesn't think I'm making it up, but

she's just like mad that like her daughter's going into the basement to tell this story

to a relatively small audience. And she's like, no. And that's, you know, heartbreaking sometimes

to see creative movements or actions happen that have so much work put into them. And,

you know, involve relatively few people, but they want the reach to be bigger. And that's

when they really got to depend on you because otherwise cracking that code seems very elusive

to me. I have no idea. do you, do you take that threat of lawfare though into account

when you're planning your day, your strategies? No, no, you just kind of, we say that, um,

shoot down range, not like literally, but just like never kind of veer to the sidelines.

Just keep your eyes on, on the prize. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, I think, I think

for content creators and even, know, we're doing this even with press conferences nowadays,

mainstream media is so unreliable and so thinly staffed that we're no longer just depending

on them for the reach. So it's not unusual now that if, know, we had a, we, for example,

we had a press conference with Francesca Albanese when she was in town and we invited media,

only one media showed up. It was city news, mainstream media. But what we also did is

we invited, we probably had, think about 15 different organizations come and live stream

it. Yes. I cycle through them. get the notifications. I tune in. Yes. Okay. You are behind on those.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's, that's part of the deal, right? Is, is, is just thinking

about all these different kind of partnerships you now have to create and relationships you

have to build to basically create the same level of reach that you could get with a local channel

here. Um, and it's doable. you just have to come at it in a different way and the results

look different. They don't look the same. Meaning you're not gonna see it on your television

the way you're used to, but the measurements prove it out. The base is there. And so it's,

I don't know. I'm kind of blobbing right now, but it's entirely doable. And some things

aren't measurable. Like you might be able to check your social media accounts and see how

many people. saw your video, how many people followed you from that video or, you know,

went on and click the link you needed them to click. But also the unseen rewards, right?

Who did what with that information you were able to get out there, like not the press release,

the stories that needed air, like viewing it hopefully isn't the only thing they did with

it, right? Like these are transformative narratives as opposed to status quo maintaining narrative.

So yeah, the impact a person feels from, know, seeing it flick by on CP24 isn't the same as

getting to like watch someone in a press conference live uninterrupted and asked meaningful

questions. That's right. you know, you're exactly right. I'm so glad that there's people like

you that exist and lawyers and all these other sets of skills that, you know, have Well-paying

uses in the corporate world, um, but have decided to use those skills for good for the

movement because it just, takes all kinds. say that over, I sound like a broken record, but

you know, you need a database expert. They're helpful. Uh, video editing is helpful. Lawyers,

PR people, like who knew that there was, you know, a little PR machine working with the

movement. mean, maybe everyone knew, but me before I knew you existed. And I was like,

this is amazing. And it reminds me of even talking to folks like Climate Justice Toronto,

TO, where they've become almost a staffing agency for tenant organizing. You know, they see that

folks are just understaffed, right? Everyone's just relying on volunteers who are burnt out

mostly and have their own set of skills and limitations. And they're like, well, what do

you need? Maybe we've got it. And that goes so far because people have great ideas on

key. issues and they just don't have the resources to fulfill that vision and make it kind of

gain traction. media is one frontier that stymies a lot of us. Yeah, look, it's a personal passion

of mine. narrative management is the personal passion of mine for people. I should have

had you on that panel. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, I think it's fills me up in a different way

to be able to get voices heard that should have long been heard and that are actively

being negated by state powers. So yeah, so whatever I'm able to do, whatever we're able

to do to help is huge. Thank you for coming on our little show and you know, I've got...

be an instrumental, like I said, in quite a few of our episodes, but there was just so

much mystery for me and fascination behind what you're actually doing yourself as opposed

to all the other voices you're trying to amplify. But, uh, so I'm very appreciative that you

took the time out of trying to manage these narratives to, talk to our audience and, uh,

and keep doing what you're doing. Keep me in your, keep. showing up in my DMs and I'll aim

as high as I can think of for my next request from you. I love it. No, thanks, Jessa. I

really appreciate you being so generous with your platform. Oh, yeah, no, it's a two-way

street. I feel like I've been given like an inside scoop when my screen lights up with

your name there. So I'm just equally as appreciative. thank you. Of course. Thank you. That is a

wrap on another episode of Blueprints of Disruption. Thank you for joining us. You can follow us

on Twitter at BPofDisruption. If you'd like to help us continue disrupting the status quo,

please share our content. And if you have the means, consider becoming a patron. Not only

does our support come from the progressive community, so does our content. So reach out to us and

let us know what or who we should be amplifying. So until next time, keep disrupting.