The first time I took an oath was actually in

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order to receive a high school diploma.

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I'm a dual citizen with Ecuador, so I was wearing

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an Ecuadorian flag sash,

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and I was holding the flag,

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and each one of my Ecuadorian classmates bent one

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knee, took the flag in their hand, kissed it.

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I was the final person to get back. I bent the

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knee. There's a group of military men holding

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intimidating rifles with bayonets,

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watching all the citizens do that. I took the

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oath. Whatever Jesus is trying to teach on oaths,

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he lays out, I think, very clearly in the book of

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Matthew, and then James says above all that we

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should be paying attention to what this means.

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And then also, Jesus isn't only prohibiting

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something, he's then telling us how to live.

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He says, "Let your yes be yes and your no no."

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And so Jesus is really trying to teach us, "Hey,

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your words matter. What you commit to matters."

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And I hope that when you see the words "swear,"

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your Christian instinct is to evaluate what's

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being asked of you against Jesus' teachings

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rather than just sort of

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glance over it and ignore it.

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Our guest today is Zach Johnson. He's serving at

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Sattler College, and our topic is concerning

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taking oaths and what Jesus said about not taking

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oaths and how that applies to us.

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And that's a personal issue for Zach as well.

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So Zach, could you begin just a brief

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introduction and why you care about this topic?

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It might seem narrow to some of us.

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Yeah, it's great to be here, Marlin. Thanks so

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much for hosting me. The first time I took an

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oath was actually in order to

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receive a high school diploma.

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So I was a missionary kid in Quito, Ecuador, and

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if you travel around the world, there are a

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series of things that people set up, oath taking

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being one of them or some sort of where we took

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an oath was in the they called the pledge to the

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flag in order to even receive an

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official diploma from high school.

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So the first time I took an oath, I was wearing

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I'm a dual citizen with Ecuador. So I was wearing

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an Ecuadorian flag sash, and I was holding the

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flag and each one of my Ecuadorian classmates

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bent one knee, took the flag in their hand,

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kissed it and said, "I swear" to an oath that had

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been read aloud before the ceremony.

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And I was as the final, for some reason, I was

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the flag bearer. I could tell you more about

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that. I was the final person to get back. I bent

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the knee. There's a group of military men holding

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intimidating rifles with bayonets,

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watching all the citizens do that.

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I took the oath, didn't really, I'm just gonna

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say, didn't think anything of it. It was just a

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ceremony that happened. Our high school did it.

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We were a Christian, used to be a boarding

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school, very evangelical in nature.

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Six months later, I joined the US military, went

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to the Air Force Academy, and then took another

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oath of allegiance to the US Constitution. And

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then in order to get a security clearance, then

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had to renounce my citizenship to Ecuador.

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And didn't really think anything of it, but I've

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taken a series of oaths in my academic life and

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then professional life that I'll just say I'd

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never thought about and nobody really made a big

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deal. And it wasn't until a little bit later

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after I had encountered a church here in Boston

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called "Followers of the Way" that they sort of

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illuminated this idea that, hey, there's a group

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of people who take the

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teachings on those very seriously.

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And so that's sort of my introductions to oaths

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was my journey from Ecuador as a missionary kid

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into the Air Force and then out of the Air Force.

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And then when I did that, I became a

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conscientious objector. And the last straw for me

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was actually a teaching on oaths.

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So I'm very, very passionate about why I chose

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not to stay in the Air Force, even though it was

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acceptable to me. It was always, I'll say my

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heart's intent was to follow Christ. And it

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wasn't until later on in my life that somebody

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just opened the door and said, hey, there's this

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teaching on oaths, violence, loving your enemies.

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And so the oath, the oath was actually the last

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straw for me that was sort of the issue on why I

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decided I couldn't stay in the military and serve

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out a government fashion. And so the oath is a,

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it's a very important thing for me because it was

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sort of a critical, a

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critical juncture in my life.

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And I thought about it a lot, prayed about it a

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lot, read about it a lot. And it continues to

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have implications for the guys that I talk to

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and actually women in the military who sort of

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bump into me or something

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I've written or something.

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And so I talked to a lot of people about it.

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The oath was the final juncture that led you to

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leave the military. I'm curious because you

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mentioned you had to renounce the, your

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citizenship to Ecuador. Looking back on that now,

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does that count as breaking the

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oath that in the high school ceremony?

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Yeah, I mean, I beg God for mercy that I, I feel

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that my decision to take one oath and then six

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months later to take another oath. And when you

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compare the two set of words, I would say they're

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mutually exclusive with each other.

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And so you can't, but this, this just goes to show

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that I don't think one person can have complete

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allegiance to two things simultaneously that are

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in conflict with each other.

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A great case being, can you be a Ecuadorian soldier

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and a US soldier simultaneously? The answer to

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that is no. The US military knows that. So it's

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not an, it's a very obvious thing to me.

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But yeah, I would say it was a breaking of the

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original pledge to the

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Ecuadorian flag that I took.

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Yeah. So on this, on this topic of oaths, what I

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know there's two passages in the New Testament

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that address it directly. I'll just go ahead and

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read them and then let you

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make the comments you wish.

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The first one from Matthew 5:33 to 37, "Jesus

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says, again, you have heard that it was said to

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those of old, you shall not swear falsely, but

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shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.

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But I say to you, do not take an oath at all,

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either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or

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by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by

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Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great king.

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And do not take an oath by your head, for you

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cannot make one hair white or black. Let whatever

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you say be simply yes or no.

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Anything more than this comes from evil."

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And then from the letter of James, very short.

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"But above all my brothers, do not swear, either

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by heaven or by earth, or by any other oath, but

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let your yes be yes and your no be no, so that

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you may not fall under condemnation."

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Yeah, so these are the two primary passages when

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you when you look at, hey, let's talk about why

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not to swear oaths. There's a few other passages

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that are worth looking at, but

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we won't have the time to do that.

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And then really interesting to track the history

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of oaths through the Old Testament and into the

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New Testament to kind of

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do case studies on on oaths.

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And I would I would make there's a lot of great

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examples of oaths gone wrong in the Bible, too.

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And so I actually think it's really interesting.

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But just to interlock these two, these two

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teachings, a lot of people, when they when they

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look at the book of James, you'll find striking

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connections to the Sermon on the Mount.

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And a lot of people say that James is almost, you

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could say, a commentary on the Sermon on the

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Mount, making the argument that

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James is the half brother of Jesus.

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And then he would have heard Jesus give the

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sermon. However, many number of times, I'm not

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going to try to make that argument.

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And then I always like to say in any book, when

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you get to these "above all" moments, we should be

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saying, all right, somehow, James is saying that

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this is one of the one of the most important

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things I'm going to say in my

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short little my short little book here.

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James has five chapters and he

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says, above all, don't swear.

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And so whatever Jesus is trying to teach on

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oaths, he lays out, I think, very clearly in the

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book of Matthew. And then when you look at how

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important it is, I would say that because it's

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there so so clearly in Matthew that and then

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James says, above all, that we should be paying

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attention to what this means.

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There are three general camps of interpreting the

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oath passage here. One is the where I fall into.

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It's just that we should take Jesus's words very

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literally and take them very seriously.

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And whenever we're in any circumstance that even

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smells like an oath, our instincts should go up

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and we should say, hey, Jesus taught something about this

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I should be paying attention to what he was

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prohibiting there. And then also, Jesus isn't

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only prohibiting something. He's then telling us

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how to live. He says, let

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your yes be yes and your no no.

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And so Jesus is really trying to teach us, hey,

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your words matter, what you commit to matters.

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And so that's my camp, the

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literal prohibition on oaths.

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And I can get into a little bit of, I think we'll

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get into a hey, what's an oath and what isn't an

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oath. And then there's this other camp.

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And Marlin, you actually pointed me to this. I

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hadn't read it through it a little bit. But John

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Calvin wrote a lot on oath taking.

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And there's a there's a sermon by John MacArthur

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that I bumped into about oaths as

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well that I think represents this well.

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Is that some oaths are OK and some oaths are not OK. And

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it's kind of the one of the lines that I remind

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myself is do not do not swear

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at all means swear sometimes.

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So that's sort of the second camp.

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I'm poking fun of it a little bit.

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And I think you really have to do some

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justification there. But that camp, they're still

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looking at the teaching and

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trying to apply it in everyday life.

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And they're saying that, hey, really, Jesus was

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talking about some sort of Jewish abuse of oaths

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that was happening, but it's not completely

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relevant to us, i.e., government oaths, the oaths

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in courtrooms, things of that nature.

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And then the third camp is like it doesn't matter

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completely. It doesn't matter for our context,

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sort of for the another point in time.

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And I did want to say that between those first I

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think those first two interpretations are

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probably where the audience falls

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between and is most familiar with.

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I think they care and I think they want to know.

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And I really think that just like

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hermeneutically, what's going to define where you

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land on this is some sort of idea of

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how you view the Old

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Testament and how we interact with it.

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People in my camp view the Sermon on the Mount as

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a like a perfection of the Old Testament.

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And the Old Testament was almost like a

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babysitter or I like to say a pedagogos in Greek,

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that it was an incomplete set of laws.

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And then Jesus came and gave us an illuminated, a

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new reality that we needed that the Messiah would bring.

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And the other set sort of doesn't view the Sermon

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on the Mount that way and sort of likes to treat

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the new and Old Testaments holistically that they

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can't be incompatible with each

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other, which I don't think they are.

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But this would be a great example of one where

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it's like, well, hey, there are people taking

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oaths in the Old Testament, so it can't mean that

255

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Jesus is prohibiting oaths.

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So it's just a different treatment of how you

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view the Old Testament, and I am a huge fan of

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what I laid out as Sermon on the Mount as

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Constitution for being a Christian.

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And so that's – I just wanted to frame. That's

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kind of how I think about the

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Sermon on the Mount in general.

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Yeah, and we're going to have to dive into that a

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little bit more. I'm curious on the third camp,

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00:12:49,059 --> 00:12:52,480

saying it doesn't matter – I mean, do you bump

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into a lot of people saying that explicitly, or

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is it more like why bother thinking about it, or

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is there an explicit argument that –

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00:13:01,989 --> 00:13:04,742

I would – I'm not trying to – I put –

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there's a certain set of passages in the New

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Testament that make no

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sense, like in our context.

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And a lot of people, if it doesn't make direct

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application, they might not

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take the time to think about it.

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I would – like, there's a category of like

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don't eat food, strangled food.

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Like, a lot of people that I've run into are not

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thinking about that when they run into this

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teaching in the New Testament.

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They're like, this sounds like nothing I know of

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doesn't really apply to me. So I think it's more

283

00:13:34,522 --> 00:13:37,942

of that camp that since it seems so foreign, that

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it's one of those like non-apply teachings that

285

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must have been only to a specific audience.

286

00:13:43,072 --> 00:13:45,866

So I think it's more of that type than – rather

287

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than like blatantly ignoring

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things. Does that make sense?

289

00:13:49,995 --> 00:13:53,457

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, even from my own

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00:13:53,457 --> 00:13:56,293

standpoint, I think a lot of others, like the

291

00:13:56,293 --> 00:13:59,171

closest that I've ever actually come to

292

00:13:59,171 --> 00:14:00,881

encountering the question, am I going to swear an

293

00:14:00,881 --> 00:14:04,510

oath or not, is like a driver's license form that

294

00:14:04,510 --> 00:14:05,844

has the word swear on it.

295

00:14:06,011 --> 00:14:08,973

I've never been in the situations that you

296

00:14:08,973 --> 00:14:11,684

described at the opening of the episode, and

297

00:14:11,684 --> 00:14:14,728

there's probably a lot of other people who just

298

00:14:15,604 --> 00:14:16,855

never had anything that

299

00:14:16,855 --> 00:14:18,232

forced them to think much about it.

300

00:14:19,233 --> 00:14:22,319

Yeah, I mean, the examples that I'll give – so

301

00:14:22,319 --> 00:14:24,113

obviously, there's the

302

00:14:24,113 --> 00:14:26,448

political and military examples.

303

00:14:27,032 --> 00:14:30,786

And this is where I give a talk on voting as it

304

00:14:30,786 --> 00:14:34,456

relates to oath taking as well, where if you're a

305

00:14:34,456 --> 00:14:39,545

voter, you will endorse that Christian will go

306

00:14:39,545 --> 00:14:43,549

– the president, a lot of the US presidents are

307

00:14:43,549 --> 00:14:47,136

at least pay homage to Christianity to some in

308

00:14:47,136 --> 00:14:48,429

some way, shape or form.

309

00:14:48,429 --> 00:14:51,849

They'll go take an oath on a Bible every time you

310

00:14:51,849 --> 00:14:53,809

vote. So if you vote, you're actually, in my

311

00:14:53,809 --> 00:14:57,187

mind, you're actually condoning the act of taking

312

00:14:57,187 --> 00:14:58,606

an oath on a Christian Bible.

313

00:14:58,897 --> 00:14:59,898

We can talk more about that.

314

00:15:00,107 --> 00:15:02,818

So politically in the voting sphere, I think

315

00:15:02,818 --> 00:15:05,112

people should think about it more. And then I was

316

00:15:05,112 --> 00:15:06,363

just called into jury duty

317

00:15:06,363 --> 00:15:08,198

earlier this week, ironically.

318

00:15:08,991 --> 00:15:13,329

And I give, for those of you who interact with

319

00:15:13,329 --> 00:15:15,581

that sort of interaction, you'll interact with

320

00:15:15,581 --> 00:15:16,915

oaths in the courthouse, in

321

00:15:16,915 --> 00:15:18,459

the legal system, on jury duties.

322

00:15:20,544 --> 00:15:24,173

And then usually, there's some way, shape or

323

00:15:24,173 --> 00:15:28,886

swear verbiage in a lot of legal contracts that

324

00:15:28,886 --> 00:15:30,304

you'll see for driver's license,

325

00:15:30,304 --> 00:15:33,265

for loans, for – I have to do it.

326

00:15:33,265 --> 00:15:35,601

I have to actually circumvent oath taking to get

327

00:15:35,601 --> 00:15:37,478

a little parking pass in my neighborhood that

328

00:15:37,478 --> 00:15:40,648

says I live where I say I live.

329

00:15:41,273 --> 00:15:43,400

And so it's kind of – it's written in there,

330

00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,235

and that's where I do want to make a distinction

331

00:15:45,235 --> 00:15:51,283

that there is definitely a difference between

332

00:15:51,283 --> 00:15:53,619

being able to say that something's true and an

333

00:15:53,619 --> 00:15:54,453

oath, and I think it's

334

00:15:54,453 --> 00:15:56,538

helpful to make that distinction.

335

00:15:57,039 --> 00:16:01,502

But then at the same time, yeah, we'll make that

336

00:16:01,502 --> 00:16:04,171

distinction. But I think we'll encounter it in

337

00:16:04,171 --> 00:16:08,050

one way, shape or form, and I hope that when you

338

00:16:08,050 --> 00:16:12,179

see the word swear, or that your Christian

339

00:16:12,179 --> 00:16:15,182

instinct is to evaluate what's being asked of you

340

00:16:15,182 --> 00:16:17,518

against Jesus's teachings, rather than just sort

341

00:16:17,518 --> 00:16:19,978

of glance over it and ignore it.

342

00:16:20,979 --> 00:16:23,273

So how do you circumvent it? Like is it a paper

343

00:16:23,273 --> 00:16:25,859

form and you can literally cross out a word and

344

00:16:25,859 --> 00:16:28,320

write in something else, or out

345

00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:29,947

of curiosity on the parking pass?

346

00:16:30,364 --> 00:16:34,702

Yeah, so which – so the parking pass, I'm sure

347

00:16:34,702 --> 00:16:38,664

they're annoyed by us, but we will – you can

348

00:16:38,664 --> 00:16:41,709

apply online. We'll print it out, cross out the

349

00:16:41,709 --> 00:16:45,587

word, initial it, say something else, and then

350

00:16:45,587 --> 00:16:47,965

sign it and mail it in, and you get that option.

351

00:16:48,006 --> 00:16:50,217

So that's a sort of convention. Even on legal

352

00:16:50,217 --> 00:16:54,596

documents, that's what I do. But then, so even

353

00:16:54,596 --> 00:17:00,436

religiously now, you see that oath-taking is no

354

00:17:00,436 --> 00:17:04,148

longer required in the legal system, and they're

355

00:17:04,148 --> 00:17:06,400

starting to take out the

356

00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,777

oath-like language that appeals to God.

357

00:17:09,028 --> 00:17:12,990

I don't know if you've heard some of the

358

00:17:12,990 --> 00:17:15,200

presidents still at the end of an oath, or a lot

359

00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:16,034

of the military oaths,

360

00:17:16,034 --> 00:17:17,161

you say, "So help me, God."

361

00:17:17,870 --> 00:17:20,706

And then at the beginning, there's a – you can

362

00:17:20,706 --> 00:17:23,625

either swear or affirm, and you can kind of

363

00:17:23,625 --> 00:17:27,463

choose which word you're comfortable with.

364

00:17:27,921 --> 00:17:30,048

And in those circumstances, I just think that,

365

00:17:30,048 --> 00:17:33,093

hey, it's already being half-circumvented for

366

00:17:33,093 --> 00:17:34,970

you. Don't- ignore the exact fraction.

367

00:17:36,013 --> 00:17:38,849

Then the Christians' duty is to evaluate the

368

00:17:38,849 --> 00:17:42,269

words themselves, and then that kicks into the

369

00:17:42,269 --> 00:17:44,980

second part of Jesus' teaching, "Let your yes be

370

00:17:44,980 --> 00:17:48,067

yes and your no be no," and then it's up to you

371

00:17:48,067 --> 00:17:50,986

to evaluate, "Hey, what am I agreeing to?"

372

00:17:50,986 --> 00:17:53,781

And if there's some sort of thing that you

373

00:17:53,781 --> 00:17:55,115

shouldn't agree to, you

374

00:17:55,115 --> 00:17:56,450

shouldn't say those words.

375

00:17:58,243 --> 00:18:02,414

And that's sort of like my plea for a lot of

376

00:18:02,414 --> 00:18:05,834

people is the oaths that people say are, I would

377

00:18:05,834 --> 00:18:11,131

say, impossible to fulfill as dutiful Christians.

378

00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:13,133

And I just think people should

379

00:18:13,133 --> 00:18:14,426

be thinking a lot more about it.

380

00:18:16,011 --> 00:18:20,098

I hear you bringing it back from just a point

381

00:18:20,098 --> 00:18:24,478

about language, or is it an oath to, well, don't

382

00:18:24,478 --> 00:18:26,855

say things if you can't actually commit to them,

383

00:18:27,356 --> 00:18:28,982

the things we kind of glibly sign.

384

00:18:29,983 --> 00:18:33,987

Just for me, for example, in the military, with

385

00:18:33,987 --> 00:18:37,324

the reason that I decided not to, I was a second

386

00:18:37,324 --> 00:18:42,579

lieutenant, and every time you go up a rank, you

387

00:18:42,579 --> 00:18:45,415

take another oath of office, hence

388

00:18:45,415 --> 00:18:47,501

the officer line in the military.

389

00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,671

And there's a line in there, "I will protect the

390

00:18:50,671 --> 00:18:52,172

Constitution of the U.S. against

391

00:18:52,172 --> 00:18:53,966

all enemies, foreign and domestic."

392

00:18:55,008 --> 00:18:56,844

And then there's this line, there's this thing

393

00:18:56,844 --> 00:18:58,387

that you're agreeing to, that I take this

394

00:18:58,387 --> 00:19:00,889

obligation freely without

395

00:19:00,889 --> 00:19:03,851

any purpose of mental evasion.

396

00:19:06,019 --> 00:19:10,482

Basically, whatever enemy comes, I'm going to

397

00:19:10,482 --> 00:19:13,360

defend it no matter what, and there's nothing

398

00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:15,988

stopping me from fulfilling that duty.

399

00:19:15,988 --> 00:19:19,366

When I actually talk to a lot of Christians about

400

00:19:19,366 --> 00:19:22,452

why it's acceptable, they actually repeat back to

401

00:19:22,452 --> 00:19:24,913

me, they're like, actually, I should be in here

402

00:19:24,913 --> 00:19:28,458

because I'm a Christian, and if there's ever

403

00:19:28,458 --> 00:19:30,878

anything that goes awry, people like me should be

404

00:19:30,878 --> 00:19:34,548

a stop, like a stop gap between unchristian

405

00:19:34,548 --> 00:19:35,716

behavior and the government.

406

00:19:36,008 --> 00:19:38,594

But then I like to say to them, then you

407

00:19:38,594 --> 00:19:41,179

shouldn't be saying yes to those words, because

408

00:19:41,179 --> 00:19:45,559

realistically, you have every intention to break

409

00:19:45,559 --> 00:19:47,978

that oath, given that it goes against your

410

00:19:47,978 --> 00:19:49,813

allegiance to Christ, which is not what the

411

00:19:49,813 --> 00:19:51,565

country is asking of you.

412

00:19:52,024 --> 00:19:54,401

And so I like to sort of play a little bit of

413

00:19:54,401 --> 00:19:57,863

devil's advocate with people there on why we

414

00:19:57,863 --> 00:20:01,867

shouldn't be committing to do something in all

415

00:20:01,867 --> 00:20:04,286

circumstances when realistically we're like, no,

416

00:20:04,286 --> 00:20:05,996

I'm actually trying to be the

417

00:20:05,996 --> 00:20:08,749

moral conscience of the country, etc.

418

00:20:08,999 --> 00:20:12,794

So there's certain things around oaths, and

419

00:20:12,794 --> 00:20:15,464

hopefully we can get into defining them, but then

420

00:20:15,464 --> 00:20:18,884

you have to at least look at what you're saying

421

00:20:18,884 --> 00:20:22,179

yes and no to, and then that's where I think it

422

00:20:22,179 --> 00:20:25,015

cannot be an oath, but you shouldn't agree to a

423

00:20:25,015 --> 00:20:27,643

set of words that you disagree with and might

424

00:20:27,643 --> 00:20:29,853

compromise some behavior on

425

00:20:29,853 --> 00:20:31,355

another conviction that you have.

426

00:20:32,856 --> 00:20:35,400

Well said, and let's go from there into that

427

00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:36,985

question. Yeah, how do you define an oath?

428

00:20:37,986 --> 00:20:41,240

Yeah, so there's a couple of lexicons, but I like

429

00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,410

to I like to define an oath generally with three

430

00:20:45,410 --> 00:20:49,456

components that you typically see in oath

431

00:20:49,456 --> 00:20:52,209

language. And like I said, there are there are-

432

00:20:52,209 --> 00:20:53,961

oaths come in various shapes and sizes.

433

00:20:54,002 --> 00:20:57,631

So this stuff, these components are more

434

00:20:57,631 --> 00:21:02,552

generalities. But the three components are one,

435

00:21:02,552 --> 00:21:04,930

some sort of attestation of truth.

436

00:21:06,098 --> 00:21:09,184

So you're saying something. The

437

00:21:09,184 --> 00:21:13,563

second one is that you invoke the name of a

438

00:21:13,563 --> 00:21:15,065

higher power, energy,

439

00:21:15,399 --> 00:21:20,779

object, person, relationship, etc.

440

00:21:21,029 --> 00:21:24,199

So you say something and then you're saying and

441

00:21:24,199 --> 00:21:26,326

then you invoke it and you're saying, hey, I'm

442

00:21:26,326 --> 00:21:30,372

saying this on behalf or under the cover of this

443

00:21:30,372 --> 00:21:32,708

thing. So you read it there.

444

00:21:33,125 --> 00:21:35,961

Jesus is actually saying, don't take any of

445

00:21:35,961 --> 00:21:38,922

oaths- don't take him by heaven, by Jerusalem, by

446

00:21:38,922 --> 00:21:41,466

this, by that, by the earth. But he's he's

447

00:21:41,466 --> 00:21:42,968

listing the things you shouldn't take oaths by.

448

00:21:43,010 --> 00:21:45,053

So you're invoking something. And then the third,

449

00:21:45,679 --> 00:21:47,431

which is really interesting, is actually an

450

00:21:47,431 --> 00:21:52,102

invoke is an invitation to punishment by the by

451

00:21:52,102 --> 00:21:54,104

the thing you invoke, given that you don't

452

00:21:54,104 --> 00:21:56,898

fulfill the set of words that you attest to.

453

00:21:57,149 --> 00:21:59,359

So those I think those are the interlocking

454

00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,363

components that generally make up oath language,

455

00:22:03,363 --> 00:22:06,366

one, some sort of attestation of truth or

456

00:22:06,366 --> 00:22:07,993

commitment that you're going to do something.

457

00:22:08,035 --> 00:22:10,162

It could be a promise, could be a set of words. Two,

458

00:22:10,162 --> 00:22:13,915

bringing in another name that sort of

459

00:22:13,915 --> 00:22:16,418

gives you top cover the name of God.

460

00:22:17,377 --> 00:22:20,130

Some people have seen it in pop

461

00:22:20,130 --> 00:22:23,050

culture. You like swear by your mother, like I by

462

00:22:23,050 --> 00:22:25,677

my mother's name or by my dead grandfather.

463

00:22:26,094 --> 00:22:29,014

I promise you this is true. And then the third is

464

00:22:29,014 --> 00:22:33,727

an invitation of punishment of what happens to

465

00:22:33,727 --> 00:22:35,979

you if you don't fulfill the oath.

466

00:22:36,021 --> 00:22:38,607

So those I think I think that's a it's a helpful

467

00:22:38,607 --> 00:22:41,485

way to think about what is an oath and what isn't

468

00:22:41,485 --> 00:22:45,572

an oath. There's some really classic pushbacks on

469

00:22:45,572 --> 00:22:47,824

Hey, like I've gotten married and

470

00:22:47,824 --> 00:22:50,660

taken wedding vows. And people-

471

00:22:51,036 --> 00:22:53,121

And then I get that they're similar in nature,

472

00:22:53,121 --> 00:22:55,624

like as a wedding vow and oath. And I would just

473

00:22:55,624 --> 00:22:59,419

argue by nature of the definition that I just

474

00:22:59,419 --> 00:23:02,005

gave with those three interlocking parts

475

00:23:02,005 --> 00:23:04,007

that there's very different things

476

00:23:04,007 --> 00:23:06,760

between an oath and then making a commitment to

477

00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:07,677

somebody that you're going

478

00:23:07,677 --> 00:23:08,970

to try your best to fulfill.

479

00:23:09,012 --> 00:23:12,432

And you're allowed to do that. It's just the

480

00:23:12,432 --> 00:23:16,561

invoking that God is a higher power and trying to

481

00:23:16,561 --> 00:23:18,230

set up these two standards of truth

482

00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:20,315

that I think the world operates on.

483

00:23:20,315 --> 00:23:21,983

There's like normal standard of truth. And then

484

00:23:21,983 --> 00:23:25,654

there's oath power truth, which gets you in

485

00:23:25,654 --> 00:23:29,825

trouble if you lie under that, then- that there's

486

00:23:29,825 --> 00:23:31,576

meaningful differences between the two.

487

00:23:31,993 --> 00:23:35,080

And you see that in actually the

488

00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,250

news every day where let's say that you're a

489

00:23:38,250 --> 00:23:40,919

congressional witness. Do you know, are you

490

00:23:40,919 --> 00:23:43,630

familiar what as a witness, what happens to you?

491

00:23:43,630 --> 00:23:46,716

You get put under oath.

492

00:23:46,967 --> 00:23:49,261

And if you lie under oath, it's more significant

493

00:23:49,261 --> 00:23:52,097

than if you lie while you're not under oath. And

494

00:23:52,097 --> 00:23:54,307

so it's a very interesting system that the world

495

00:23:54,307 --> 00:23:56,560

has set up to kind of, I would say,

496

00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:58,728

creates these two platforms of truth.

497

00:23:58,979 --> 00:24:01,731

One is sort of normal life where you're almost

498

00:24:01,731 --> 00:24:04,734

expected not to have to tell the truth. And then

499

00:24:04,734 --> 00:24:07,112

there's this like, well, unless you're under

500

00:24:07,112 --> 00:24:08,780

oath, then you have to tell the truth.

501

00:24:08,780 --> 00:24:11,283

And if you don't, then you can get actually

502

00:24:11,283 --> 00:24:14,494

convicted of different types of, of like perjury

503

00:24:14,494 --> 00:24:17,038

and things like that, or giving false testimony

504

00:24:17,038 --> 00:24:18,290

under oath, which I think

505

00:24:18,290 --> 00:24:20,292

Jesus is trying to warn against.

506

00:24:21,001 --> 00:24:22,460

But yeah, those are that's

507

00:24:22,460 --> 00:24:23,628

my general definition there.

508

00:24:25,005 --> 00:24:26,006

Yeah. Can we poke on some

509

00:24:26,006 --> 00:24:29,926

examples a little bit? Yeah, absolutely.

510

00:24:30,510 --> 00:24:33,972

The one that feels most classic to me of getting

511

00:24:33,972 --> 00:24:36,391

all your components together is something like

512

00:24:36,391 --> 00:24:40,061

Jezebel in the Old Testament. Elijah has killed

513

00:24:40,061 --> 00:24:42,981

the prophets on Mount Carmel and Queen Jezebel's

514

00:24:42,981 --> 00:24:46,776

like, you know, may the gods do so to do this to

515

00:24:46,776 --> 00:24:49,654

me and more also if I don't, if

516

00:24:49,654 --> 00:24:51,072

I don't kill you by the morning.

517

00:24:51,990 --> 00:24:54,910

Yeah, that clearly brings it in. Then you jump to

518

00:24:54,910 --> 00:24:59,122

the other extreme. So I had to fill out paperwork

519

00:24:59,122 --> 00:25:00,624

to get a sales tax exemption

520

00:25:00,624 --> 00:25:02,000

for Anabaptist Perspectives.

521

00:25:03,126 --> 00:25:06,796

And on the form it says something like, I declare

522

00:25:06,796 --> 00:25:10,467

under penalty of perjury. So we go to the

523

00:25:10,467 --> 00:25:11,635

dictionary and look up perjury.

524

00:25:11,635 --> 00:25:12,969

It would say it's lying under oath.

525

00:25:14,179 --> 00:25:17,599

But there was nothing. The only thing my

526

00:25:17,599 --> 00:25:18,308

signature did was

527

00:25:18,308 --> 00:25:19,601

acknowledge that I'd get punished.

528

00:25:21,519 --> 00:25:25,315

Yeah, this is where this is still where I'm

529

00:25:25,315 --> 00:25:30,528

lenient. I'm more lenient on contract language

530

00:25:30,528 --> 00:25:34,199

because- Were you filling it out with a pen?

531

00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:36,576

Or do you remember if it was online

532

00:25:36,576 --> 00:25:38,495

or not? That actually was on paper.

533

00:25:40,205 --> 00:25:43,541

So this is where and people still look at me

534

00:25:43,541 --> 00:25:46,002

sideways when I do this. But when I see those

535

00:25:46,002 --> 00:25:48,630

statements, you're allowed to as a signer cross

536

00:25:48,630 --> 00:25:51,299

things out and make notes

537

00:25:51,299 --> 00:25:53,301

and they still accept it.

538

00:25:53,718 --> 00:25:57,722

So whenever I still look for oath type language

539

00:25:57,722 --> 00:26:00,100

and I'll cross it out and I just say, I don't

540

00:26:00,100 --> 00:26:02,727

take oaths, but I'm telling you this is true.

541

00:26:03,186 --> 00:26:06,189

And I've never had a problem with that kind of

542

00:26:06,189 --> 00:26:10,193

behavior where I know it's kind of playing. It

543

00:26:10,193 --> 00:26:12,570

kind of seems like a funny game to play.

544

00:26:13,780 --> 00:26:18,034

But I think it is important to just push back and

545

00:26:18,034 --> 00:26:19,286

say I don't take oaths, but I

546

00:26:19,286 --> 00:26:20,954

can still participate in society.

547

00:26:21,579 --> 00:26:24,457

I have a really funny example with my

548

00:26:24,457 --> 00:26:27,627

conscientious objector trial. There was a

549

00:26:27,627 --> 00:26:29,504

military lawyer called a Jag who

550

00:26:29,504 --> 00:26:30,964

brought my witnesses to the stand.

551

00:26:31,006 --> 00:26:34,634

And he put a bunch of people under oath to tell

552

00:26:34,634 --> 00:26:39,014

the truth in my own trial, like my friends, my

553

00:26:39,014 --> 00:26:40,307

fellow military officers.

554

00:26:40,307 --> 00:26:42,809

But when it came to me and another brother in the

555

00:26:42,809 --> 00:26:44,019

church who was giving testimony,

556

00:26:44,519 --> 00:26:46,062

he knew we wouldn't take oaths.

557

00:26:46,062 --> 00:26:47,939

So he came up with something different. He's

558

00:26:47,939 --> 00:26:49,274

like, are you going to tell me

559

00:26:49,274 --> 00:26:50,817

the truth? And we just said yes.

560

00:26:51,860 --> 00:26:54,946

And I view that as not an oath, just a

561

00:26:54,946 --> 00:26:56,740

confirmation of I'm truthful.

562

00:26:57,032 --> 00:26:58,825

And so I do think that you're still allowed to

563

00:26:58,825 --> 00:27:02,746

participate in the processes around you. However,

564

00:27:03,246 --> 00:27:06,916

it's still worth it to clarify with people that

565

00:27:06,916 --> 00:27:10,337

you don't take oath and you're not invoking God.

566

00:27:11,046 --> 00:27:15,467

And even like in that language, you're allowed to

567

00:27:15,467 --> 00:27:17,385

say like, I'm not taking an oath here. I'm just

568

00:27:17,385 --> 00:27:19,012

telling you this is true. That's fine.

569

00:27:19,262 --> 00:27:20,972

Like that's not unacceptable

570

00:27:20,972 --> 00:27:22,557

to me. Does that make sense?

571

00:27:23,099 --> 00:27:26,603

Yeah, even in that, I'm sure you do that in some

572

00:27:26,603 --> 00:27:29,981

of those wordings that say I swear generically and

573

00:27:29,981 --> 00:27:32,067

even under something like penalty of perjury, you

574

00:27:32,067 --> 00:27:35,320

would want to put a

575

00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:36,571

handwritten note on if you could.

576

00:27:37,113 --> 00:27:39,240

Yeah, and you're allowed to do that. I mean,

577

00:27:39,407 --> 00:27:41,493

there's nothing stopping you from doing that. And

578

00:27:41,493 --> 00:27:43,620

this is where I just I still

579

00:27:43,620 --> 00:27:44,996

think that God will be merciful.

580

00:27:45,038 --> 00:27:49,292

Like if you miss a word in a contract and you

581

00:27:49,292 --> 00:27:51,419

didn't like, I don't think you can be tricked

582

00:27:51,419 --> 00:27:53,171

into taking a oath that you didn't know.

583

00:27:53,922 --> 00:27:56,257

And that's where I think some of those things

584

00:27:56,257 --> 00:27:59,677

that I'm much more lenient on like, hey, this is

585

00:27:59,677 --> 00:28:03,098

not that big of a deal. However, if you're being

586

00:28:03,098 --> 00:28:06,684

marched in front of a general and you're throwing

587

00:28:06,684 --> 00:28:09,354

up your right hand and there's flags out like you

588

00:28:09,354 --> 00:28:12,565

should be thinking, this is definitely an oath.

589

00:28:12,565 --> 00:28:15,443

This is like has oath environment written all

590

00:28:15,443 --> 00:28:17,570

over it. So there's categorical differences

591

00:28:17,570 --> 00:28:20,323

between some of the different types of oaths

592

00:28:20,323 --> 00:28:22,659

you'll take or will be asked to take.

593

00:28:23,535 --> 00:28:28,498

Yeah, and I just point out historically, like at

594

00:28:28,498 --> 00:28:30,333

least in English and American law, there's

595

00:28:30,333 --> 00:28:32,752

provisions there because from what I could tell,

596

00:28:33,545 --> 00:28:34,587

the Quakers took this very

597

00:28:34,587 --> 00:28:36,506

seriously and wouldn't take oaths.

598

00:28:36,506 --> 00:28:38,967

And eventually people decided to accommodate it.

599

00:28:40,510 --> 00:28:43,012

Yeah, and I think I actually think the US is a

600

00:28:43,012 --> 00:28:46,641

very with people like with our convictions, the

601

00:28:46,641 --> 00:28:50,186

Quakers did a ton of work to at least make it

602

00:28:50,186 --> 00:28:54,482

normal to push back against even the use of

603

00:28:54,482 --> 00:28:57,360

violence, the use of violence and oath taking to

604

00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,279

try to create some separation of

605

00:29:00,989 --> 00:29:02,782

church and state. The Quakers did a lot of

606

00:29:02,782 --> 00:29:05,743

groundwork where people are kind of familiar with

607

00:29:05,743 --> 00:29:08,496

refusing to take oaths and they'll kind of look

608

00:29:08,496 --> 00:29:09,456

at you and be like, oh, that

609

00:29:09,456 --> 00:29:10,748

guy must be a Quaker or something.

610

00:29:10,957 --> 00:29:12,917

But it's still familiar, whereas other places

611

00:29:12,917 --> 00:29:16,212

it's less familiar. So I do think the Quakers did

612

00:29:16,212 --> 00:29:18,756

some work with similar convictions before us.

613

00:29:20,008 --> 00:29:23,720

Back to the wedding example for

614

00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:28,808

just a little bit and the wedding vows.

615

00:29:31,436 --> 00:29:36,149

If there's language in there like, do you do this

616

00:29:36,149 --> 00:29:38,776

before God and these witnesses or something like

617

00:29:38,776 --> 00:29:43,323

that, does that in your mind bring up more of

618

00:29:43,323 --> 00:29:43,990

those elements of an oath?

619

00:29:44,032 --> 00:29:52,081

I mean, it makes it seem more like an oath. But

620

00:29:52,081 --> 00:29:56,336

to me, when you're making a commitment of

621

00:29:56,336 --> 00:30:02,509

marriage, honestly, what for me separates it is

622

00:30:02,509 --> 00:30:05,803

that, how do I say this?

623

00:30:05,803 --> 00:30:07,597

There's not a meaningful difference in the way

624

00:30:07,597 --> 00:30:10,517

that you behave afterwards based on what you say.

625

00:30:12,519 --> 00:30:15,897

Like this is where I think marriage is a unique

626

00:30:15,897 --> 00:30:19,317

category in its own because I think I personally

627

00:30:19,317 --> 00:30:21,110

think it's a sacrament where

628

00:30:21,110 --> 00:30:24,447

there is a one-flesh union occurring.

629

00:30:28,618 --> 00:30:29,911

I think the Bible says that there's something

630

00:30:29,911 --> 00:30:33,331

really happening at a marriage and I think it's

631

00:30:33,331 --> 00:30:37,335

almost a category in its own that even the New

632

00:30:37,335 --> 00:30:40,880

Testament says, Hey, marvel not a man and a

633

00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:42,090

woman shall become one flesh.

634

00:30:42,382 --> 00:30:45,301

And this is how God designed it. And there are

635

00:30:45,301 --> 00:30:46,511

consequences there, but I

636

00:30:46,511 --> 00:30:49,973

don't think that that is the same.

637

00:30:51,015 --> 00:30:55,812

But actually, it's really interesting because

638

00:30:55,812 --> 00:30:58,439

marriage has, I think, spiritual

639

00:30:58,439 --> 00:31:00,733

and legal ramifications, right?

640

00:31:03,194 --> 00:31:05,113

To people. And I think there are spiritual

641

00:31:05,113 --> 00:31:08,575

realities. However, I don't think that you're

642

00:31:08,575 --> 00:31:15,206

really inviting punishment into the marriage.

643

00:31:15,206 --> 00:31:17,667

And I think that you could make the same set of

644

00:31:17,667 --> 00:31:21,379

vows without the language of before God and these

645

00:31:21,379 --> 00:31:25,633

witnesses. I just think they're similar. They're

646

00:31:25,633 --> 00:31:28,136

almost the same, but you're not swearing.

647

00:31:28,886 --> 00:31:31,306

You're not using the language that Jesus is

648

00:31:31,306 --> 00:31:34,559

warning against. So I know I'm going to kind of

649

00:31:34,559 --> 00:31:37,020

take the scapegoat, the cop-out answer, and

650

00:31:37,020 --> 00:31:39,022

saying, "Hey, there are similarities, but I do

651

00:31:39,022 --> 00:31:39,981

think they're different.

652

00:31:40,023 --> 00:31:43,776

And this is the ultimate cop-out. Jesus taught

653

00:31:43,776 --> 00:31:46,904

not to swear, but he didn't teach not to get

654

00:31:46,904 --> 00:31:50,325

married. So at the end of the day, we know that

655

00:31:50,325 --> 00:31:53,202

there's meaningful differences between the two.

656

00:31:55,538 --> 00:31:59,083

And some of it's a little mysterious. I can't

657

00:31:59,083 --> 00:32:00,293

nail all of it on the head, but

658

00:32:00,293 --> 00:32:01,961

I think it's fair to say that.

659

00:32:03,004 --> 00:32:05,673

And then on the other end of things, I like to

660

00:32:05,673 --> 00:32:09,510

remind people that this is relevant to my story,

661

00:32:09,510 --> 00:32:13,222

that the oath seems inconsequential to people.

662

00:32:15,975 --> 00:32:20,480

But when I wanted to leave the military, it was

663

00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,649

very, very, very clear that the

664

00:32:22,649 --> 00:32:24,442

government had a claim on my life.

665

00:32:25,068 --> 00:32:28,529

And if I left, I owed this amount of money or

666

00:32:28,529 --> 00:32:32,075

federal prison because I had taken that oath. And

667

00:32:32,075 --> 00:32:37,080

so it seems inconsequential, but legally, it has

668

00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,333

pretty drastic consequences down the line that

669

00:32:40,333 --> 00:32:42,710

some people aren't familiar with.

670

00:32:43,002 --> 00:32:47,548

I wasn't familiar with it. So I think vows – I

671

00:32:47,548 --> 00:32:48,966

think there's some sort of

672

00:32:48,966 --> 00:32:50,802

difference between vows and oaths.

673

00:32:52,679 --> 00:32:55,014

I am not super prepared to flesh out all the

674

00:32:55,014 --> 00:32:57,975

meaningful differences, but I'd like – I'd at

675

00:32:57,975 --> 00:32:59,227

least like to say that they're different.

676

00:33:01,020 --> 00:33:04,732

Yeah, no, that's helpful. Again, there you're

677

00:33:04,732 --> 00:33:07,568

stepping back from the language a little bit and

678

00:33:07,568 --> 00:33:09,987

saying what's going on here,

679

00:33:09,987 --> 00:33:12,990

what's the reality of getting married?

680

00:33:13,991 --> 00:33:17,495

Slightly off from our main thread, but I did an

681

00:33:17,495 --> 00:33:21,874

interview with a New Testament scholar, Matthew

682

00:33:21,874 --> 00:33:24,085

Bates, and he talks about

683

00:33:24,085 --> 00:33:27,046

baptism as an oath of allegiance.

684

00:33:27,672 --> 00:33:32,468

And I asked him a little bit about that in the

685

00:33:32,468 --> 00:33:35,430

interview. But one of the things I was thinking

686

00:33:35,430 --> 00:33:39,225

is, whoa, yes, if you're getting baptized as an

687

00:33:39,225 --> 00:33:40,852

adult, you know what you're doing.

688

00:33:42,019 --> 00:33:45,440

While this is giving total allegiance, it doesn't

689

00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,817

matter what you say or what you don't say, it has

690

00:33:47,817 --> 00:33:51,779

this consequence of allegiance like these

691

00:33:51,779 --> 00:33:52,989

countries are asking for.

692

00:33:53,990 --> 00:33:57,452

We mentioned a couple times John Calvin or John

693

00:33:57,452 --> 00:33:59,996

MacArthur and what you said is that second

694

00:33:59,996 --> 00:34:06,169

position on oaths as – well, Jesus is saying

695

00:34:06,169 --> 00:34:08,671

there's some oaths you shouldn't take.

696

00:34:10,006 --> 00:34:16,345

I'd like to look at that a little bit. I'm

697

00:34:16,345 --> 00:34:18,389

quoting a few things from John Calvin because

698

00:34:18,389 --> 00:34:22,477

he's such a classic, at least for a lot of

699

00:34:22,477 --> 00:34:25,563

thinkers today as well. He's a classic.

700

00:34:25,980 --> 00:34:28,608

Please quote him. I think you should, yeah.

701

00:34:28,983 --> 00:34:34,489

And so just a few pieces. This is actually from

702

00:34:34,489 --> 00:34:38,659

his commentary on the Ten Commandments, I

703

00:34:38,659 --> 00:34:40,161

believe, or the Sermon on the Mount.

704

00:34:40,161 --> 00:34:41,621

He takes the Sermon on the Mount as kind of

705

00:34:41,621 --> 00:34:46,250

explicating the Ten Commandments. He defines an

706

00:34:46,250 --> 00:34:48,127

oath as calling God to

707

00:34:48,127 --> 00:34:49,712

witness that what we say is true.

708

00:34:51,964 --> 00:34:53,800

So I'm noticing there right away that it doesn't

709

00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:54,759

have quite all the three

710

00:34:54,759 --> 00:34:57,470

components that you mentioned.

711

00:35:01,766 --> 00:35:05,686

So he argues that it's basically invoking God to

712

00:35:05,686 --> 00:35:08,523

confirm what we're saying. We should only swear

713

00:35:08,523 --> 00:35:10,316

by God, not by an idol or a king.

714

00:35:12,985 --> 00:35:15,571

But then he goes and makes commentary about

715

00:35:15,571 --> 00:35:18,199

Anabaptists who rejected

716

00:35:18,199 --> 00:35:19,200

oaths from the beginning.

717

00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,956

He says they inconsiderately make a stumbling

718

00:35:24,956 --> 00:35:26,499

stone of Christ, setting him

719

00:35:26,499 --> 00:35:27,625

in opposition to the Father.

720

00:35:28,626 --> 00:35:31,128

And he's talking about the way we read the Sermon

721

00:35:31,128 --> 00:35:35,925

on the Mount. He admits that it's kind of

722

00:35:35,925 --> 00:35:37,885

difficult to understand what Jesus is saying.

723

00:35:39,762 --> 00:35:42,640

But then he keeps going there, explicates that

724

00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:43,933

argument from the Old Testament.

725

00:35:47,645 --> 00:35:49,647

But then he also brings in the claim and says,

726

00:35:49,647 --> 00:35:52,900

well, Paul was a disciple of Jesus and he swore

727

00:35:52,900 --> 00:35:59,490

and gives some examples there.

728

00:35:59,991 --> 00:36:02,910

So I think you indicated a little bit about how

729

00:36:02,910 --> 00:36:05,121

you'd respond to that position, but I'd invite

730

00:36:05,121 --> 00:36:07,790

you to say more and you can reference MacArthur's

731

00:36:07,790 --> 00:36:09,709

sermon or Calvin or whatever.

732

00:36:11,335 --> 00:36:14,422

Yeah, so I actually did another podcast

733

00:36:14,422 --> 00:36:18,009

specifically on the early – it was kind of like

734

00:36:18,009 --> 00:36:20,720

a 500th year remembrance of

735

00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:21,971

some of the Anabaptist ideas.

736

00:36:22,013 --> 00:36:23,681

And I researched a little

737

00:36:23,681 --> 00:36:27,059

bit on views of oath taking.

738

00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:32,398

And what I found was you're right there, the

739

00:36:32,398 --> 00:36:35,735

early Anabaptist leaders blatantly rejected oath

740

00:36:35,735 --> 00:36:38,946

taking across the – I mean, Michael Sattler,

741

00:36:38,946 --> 00:36:40,781

Felix Manz, Conrad Grebel,

742

00:36:41,365 --> 00:36:42,992

George Blaurock, Menno Simons.

743

00:36:43,993 --> 00:36:48,164

So you are right in saying that there is already

744

00:36:48,164 --> 00:36:53,544

the Reformation with Calvin and then the radical

745

00:36:53,544 --> 00:36:57,006

Reformation with the Anabaptists there.

746

00:36:57,506 --> 00:37:00,801

And I actually think it's super illuminating to

747

00:37:00,801 --> 00:37:03,638

say, hey, there is a debate there

748

00:37:03,638 --> 00:37:05,139

between the Anabaptists and Calvin.

749

00:37:05,389 --> 00:37:06,599

Like, what should our

750

00:37:06,599 --> 00:37:07,975

instinct be to solve this debate?

751

00:37:08,017 --> 00:37:12,230

And this is where my position is, is that you

752

00:37:12,230 --> 00:37:14,941

should even – like, there's history before the

753

00:37:14,941 --> 00:37:18,194

Reformation and we should be tracing it, trying

754

00:37:18,194 --> 00:37:20,404

to trace it to what was happening before them.

755

00:37:20,404 --> 00:37:22,156

And this is where I think the early Christian

756

00:37:22,156 --> 00:37:27,203

witness plays a huge role in why I've leaned

757

00:37:27,203 --> 00:37:31,624

towards the prohibition of oaths over the

758

00:37:31,624 --> 00:37:34,460

acceptance of oaths that I think the reformed

759

00:37:34,460 --> 00:37:35,962

world has sort of begun to teach.

760

00:37:36,003 --> 00:37:41,008

And I like to – I sort of like to just say that

761

00:37:41,008 --> 00:37:43,970

there's – this is a little bit – comes back

762

00:37:43,970 --> 00:37:48,099

to how I treat this influences how I treat a

763

00:37:48,099 --> 00:37:50,059

bunch of other things in the New Testament.

764

00:37:50,393 --> 00:37:53,729

So oaths in my mind, it's tied to other things

765

00:37:53,729 --> 00:37:55,314

and there's a sermon on the Mount, like divorce

766

00:37:55,314 --> 00:38:01,570

and remarriage, the use of violence, ad infinitum

767

00:38:01,570 --> 00:38:04,573

on some of the sermon on the Mount issues.

768

00:38:05,992 --> 00:38:07,576

But I don't know if you've

769

00:38:07,576 --> 00:38:09,161

heard me talk about this before.

770

00:38:09,537 --> 00:38:12,039

I picked this up from some of my discipleship

771

00:38:12,039 --> 00:38:13,874

that in general there are three

772

00:38:13,874 --> 00:38:16,127

categories of churches or traditions.

773

00:38:17,003 --> 00:38:19,714

There are tradition zero churches, which

774

00:38:19,714 --> 00:38:23,259

basically acknowledge that the Scripture is the

775

00:38:23,259 --> 00:38:26,679

ultimate authority, but it's not the only

776

00:38:26,679 --> 00:38:30,182

authority that we should be able to appeal to

777

00:38:30,182 --> 00:38:31,726

church history, actually,

778

00:38:32,018 --> 00:38:35,229

as an additional layer of authority, interpretive

779

00:38:35,229 --> 00:38:38,065

authority on the Scriptures.

780

00:38:38,566 --> 00:38:42,028

And so I think that it's most compelling –

781

00:38:42,028 --> 00:38:43,362

that's the most compelling

782

00:38:43,362 --> 00:38:46,073

category to be in at college.

783

00:38:46,323 --> 00:38:49,535

And then there's tradition one – there's

784

00:38:49,535 --> 00:38:53,372

tradition one churches, which basically say, hey,

785

00:38:54,457 --> 00:38:56,959

there's a Scripture as an authority,

786

00:38:56,959 --> 00:39:00,046

but there's also the authority of man that we can

787

00:39:00,046 --> 00:39:03,674

layer onto this, where you can add

788

00:39:03,674 --> 00:39:07,344

additional layers of requirements.

789

00:39:08,304 --> 00:39:10,264

I like to bring – you can think of a lot of

790

00:39:10,264 --> 00:39:12,767

examples I like to bring up because the Catholic

791

00:39:12,767 --> 00:39:16,979

Church is so dominant, like vows of celibacy for

792

00:39:16,979 --> 00:39:20,608

priests, all sorts of ideas where they've

793

00:39:20,608 --> 00:39:22,985

appealed to this sort of man-made authority.

794

00:39:23,986 --> 00:39:28,657

And then there's tradition zero – sorry, I got

795

00:39:28,657 --> 00:39:29,700

my – tradition one,

796

00:39:29,700 --> 00:39:30,951

tradition two is when you add it.

797

00:39:30,951 --> 00:39:32,411

Tradition zero is when you kind of

798

00:39:32,411 --> 00:39:34,580

say, hey, I'm alone with Scriptures.

799

00:39:35,664 --> 00:39:38,459

I get to be the interpretive power of what this

800

00:39:38,459 --> 00:39:40,961

says based on where I am.

801

00:39:41,003 --> 00:39:43,839

And I would say that John Calvin and the

802

00:39:43,839 --> 00:39:49,136

reformers' treatment of that leans more towards

803

00:39:49,136 --> 00:39:51,639

being alone with Scripture than appealing to the

804

00:39:51,639 --> 00:39:53,557

early Christian witness.

805

00:39:54,058 --> 00:39:56,560

And that's just where I would really, really

806

00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:01,023

recommend just people briefly taking a swath of

807

00:40:01,023 --> 00:40:02,817

what was happening in the

808

00:40:02,817 --> 00:40:04,402

first 300 years of Christianity.

809

00:40:04,985 --> 00:40:07,279

And there's a book I recommend all the time

810

00:40:07,279 --> 00:40:10,574

called Caesar and the Lamb that where Christians

811

00:40:10,574 --> 00:40:14,036

are dying left and right on

812

00:40:14,036 --> 00:40:16,163

the refusal to take oaths.

813

00:40:16,163 --> 00:40:17,498

And people are just telling them,

814

00:40:17,498 --> 00:40:19,416

like, it's not that big of a deal.

815

00:40:19,416 --> 00:40:21,961

Just like say this thing and

816

00:40:21,961 --> 00:40:23,003

serve in the Roman government.

817

00:40:23,838 --> 00:40:25,381

And if not, you'll die.

818

00:40:25,381 --> 00:40:26,924

And they're like, I'd rather die.

819

00:40:26,924 --> 00:40:30,970

And so I think that with Calvin and the

820

00:40:30,970 --> 00:40:33,055

Anabaptists, I think the Anabaptists are much

821

00:40:33,055 --> 00:40:34,098

closer to that tradition

822

00:40:34,098 --> 00:40:36,183

one, tradition one authority.

823

00:40:36,392 --> 00:40:38,185

John Calvin says that they're tradition two.

824

00:40:38,561 --> 00:40:39,186

He's saying that they're

825

00:40:39,186 --> 00:40:40,271

putting the stumbling block.

826

00:40:40,563 --> 00:40:42,148

You get what's happening there.

827

00:40:43,107 --> 00:40:45,818

And but honestly, I think that it's a more

828

00:40:45,818 --> 00:40:47,987

historically faithful interpretation.

829

00:40:48,028 --> 00:40:51,907

And I would I would just push people to say that

830

00:40:51,907 --> 00:40:54,577

the acceptance of oath is a novel

831

00:40:54,577 --> 00:40:57,121

interpretation of Jesus's teaching.

832

00:40:57,621 --> 00:40:59,165

And it's changed over time.

833

00:40:59,456 --> 00:41:02,293

That would be my my compelling argument to say,

834

00:41:02,293 --> 00:41:04,920

hey, the best way to figure this out is with

835

00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,007

church history and to look

836

00:41:08,007 --> 00:41:09,300

at how it's changed over time.

837

00:41:09,300 --> 00:41:10,384

And the closer it is to

838

00:41:10,384 --> 00:41:11,969

Christ, the more we should trust it.

839

00:41:12,011 --> 00:41:15,848

So I tell the story of the first

840

00:41:15,848 --> 00:41:17,892

documented conscientious objector.

841

00:41:18,100 --> 00:41:21,312

There's a story of Maximilian where he's just

842

00:41:21,312 --> 00:41:24,231

I've read it in a couple of podcasts before.

843

00:41:24,231 --> 00:41:27,109

It's just he's the Roman guy is just pleading

844

00:41:27,109 --> 00:41:29,111

with him like, please, just take that.

845

00:41:29,111 --> 00:41:30,070

I don't want to hurt you.

846

00:41:30,321 --> 00:41:33,032

Take the take this duty.

847

00:41:33,032 --> 00:41:33,782

Take this seal.

848

00:41:33,782 --> 00:41:34,617

He doesn't even have to.

849

00:41:34,617 --> 00:41:36,285

He kind of says he doesn't have to serve.

850

00:41:36,285 --> 00:41:38,621

And Maximilian says, no, I'm a Christian.

851

00:41:38,621 --> 00:41:38,996

I won't do that.

852

00:41:39,038 --> 00:41:40,331

Ends up getting his head cut

853

00:41:40,331 --> 00:41:41,540

off and his dad is watching.

854

00:41:42,333 --> 00:41:44,418

And I just think that that's much more the way

855

00:41:44,418 --> 00:41:46,003

that early Christians interacted

856

00:41:46,003 --> 00:41:47,379

with Jesus' set of teachings.

857

00:41:48,464 --> 00:41:50,424

And yeah, all that being

858

00:41:50,424 --> 00:41:52,009

said, lots of things to look up.

859

00:41:52,384 --> 00:41:54,261

But the early Anabaptists, I would say, were

860

00:41:54,261 --> 00:41:59,266

consistent with really being taking that like

861

00:41:59,266 --> 00:42:01,143

that, that first stance on

862

00:42:01,143 --> 00:42:02,978

the not allowing oath taking.

863

00:42:03,979 --> 00:42:08,067

And that's why they were so in addition to

864

00:42:08,067 --> 00:42:10,152

baptism, like you brought up Matthew Bates,

865

00:42:10,861 --> 00:42:13,739

baptism and citizenship were so tied together at

866

00:42:13,739 --> 00:42:16,825

that point in time that to try to untie them was

867

00:42:16,825 --> 00:42:19,995

like very dangerous to people holding power.

868

00:42:20,037 --> 00:42:23,040

So the early Anabapts were challenging a

869

00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,752

lot of the status quos on how the church would use

870

00:42:26,752 --> 00:42:28,212

its relationship with the

871

00:42:28,212 --> 00:42:30,005

state to maintain influence.

872

00:42:30,673 --> 00:42:32,967

And oaths were a part of that, I would argue.

873

00:42:35,636 --> 00:42:40,849

I'm on the same page, especially when it comes to

874

00:42:40,849 --> 00:42:41,976

the relationship of the sermon of

875

00:42:41,976 --> 00:42:42,893

the Mount and the Old Testament.

876

00:42:44,019 --> 00:42:46,939

And as you mentioned earlier, I don't feel that

877

00:42:46,939 --> 00:42:49,858

same need that Calvin or somebody in that

878

00:42:49,858 --> 00:42:53,696

theological stream does to harmonize everything

879

00:42:53,696 --> 00:42:56,991

in the Old Testament perfectly there.

880

00:42:57,992 --> 00:43:02,496

And I think what about some of these examples

881

00:43:02,496 --> 00:43:05,374

that people bring up from the New Testament?

882

00:43:06,875 --> 00:43:10,421

Paul saying, look, God is my witness when I say

883

00:43:10,421 --> 00:43:14,300

this or things like that.

884

00:43:14,758 --> 00:43:18,679

Or there's another one I came across when Jesus

885

00:43:18,679 --> 00:43:23,726

at his trial, the high priest says,

886

00:43:23,726 --> 00:43:25,978

I adjure you and asks the question.

887

00:43:26,979 --> 00:43:29,606

Some people have argued, see

888

00:43:29,606 --> 00:43:31,942

Jesus accepted being put under oath.

889

00:43:34,153 --> 00:43:37,948

Yeah, I mean, my- so those two.

890

00:43:38,657 --> 00:43:44,246

So the Paul example is hard for me because I feel

891

00:43:44,246 --> 00:43:46,749

like people use it as a gotcha moment, but I

892

00:43:46,749 --> 00:43:48,000

don't think it's a gotcha moment.

893

00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:52,588

So when you look at Paul and what he's trying to

894

00:43:52,588 --> 00:43:59,136

do, he's trying to you remember the road to

895

00:43:59,136 --> 00:44:03,515

Damascus where Paul is approached by Christ and

896

00:44:03,515 --> 00:44:06,518

arguably Christ, why are you persecuting me?

897

00:44:07,978 --> 00:44:12,107

And there's a certain number of people who are

898

00:44:12,107 --> 00:44:15,986

able to appeal to Christ as a witness.

899

00:44:16,987 --> 00:44:21,575

I would say it's the people who who spent time

900

00:44:21,575 --> 00:44:25,120

with him while he was on Earth, the disciples,

901

00:44:25,704 --> 00:44:27,539

their disciples, people who interacted that when

902

00:44:27,539 --> 00:44:29,166

they write the New Testament, they're saying,

903

00:44:29,166 --> 00:44:31,877

hey, I was with Christ and this is what he said.

904

00:44:32,795 --> 00:44:34,546

There's that category of people.

905

00:44:34,546 --> 00:44:36,799

I would put Paul in that unique camp of people

906

00:44:36,799 --> 00:44:40,594

who able to say, hey, Christ

907

00:44:40,594 --> 00:44:42,971

approached me and said this.

908

00:44:43,013 --> 00:44:45,974

And I think that that's what Paul is trying to do

909

00:44:45,974 --> 00:44:48,685

with his writings and his audience there,

910

00:44:48,977 --> 00:44:50,813

that he's trying to

911

00:44:50,813 --> 00:44:52,731

unify the Jews and the Gentiles.

912

00:44:52,731 --> 00:44:54,983

That's one of his huge ministries.

913

00:44:55,859 --> 00:44:58,612

And I know that it's not the completely

914

00:44:58,612 --> 00:45:02,324

satisfying answer, but out of all people who are

915

00:45:02,324 --> 00:45:06,578

able to call to say that Christ was there for

916

00:45:06,578 --> 00:45:08,997

this, I think Paul is one of those people.

917

00:45:08,997 --> 00:45:11,625

And this is where I this is

918

00:45:11,625 --> 00:45:12,751

another pet peeve of mine.

919

00:45:13,252 --> 00:45:16,505

Other people who claim to say, hey, Christ told

920

00:45:16,505 --> 00:45:18,590

me this or God told me this.

921

00:45:19,049 --> 00:45:22,344

I'm all that's a that's a hobby horse of mine is

922

00:45:22,344 --> 00:45:26,056

when people use language like that.

923

00:45:26,056 --> 00:45:28,600

This is very tangential to oaths.

924

00:45:29,143 --> 00:45:31,562

I think people should be very, very, very careful

925

00:45:31,562 --> 00:45:35,566

to claim our like to claim that they're speaking

926

00:45:35,566 --> 00:45:36,859

for God or something like

927

00:45:36,859 --> 00:45:38,944

that in our day and age.

928

00:45:38,944 --> 00:45:40,195

But Paul is one of the few people that can.

929

00:45:40,988 --> 00:45:45,534

And then Jesus with Pilate there, I would just

930

00:45:45,534 --> 00:45:49,663

try to simply say that I think there's we could

931

00:45:49,663 --> 00:45:51,915

get into the Greek on what is it

932

00:45:51,915 --> 00:45:53,917

that is that the right translation?

933

00:45:54,001 --> 00:45:56,128

Adjure. Does that mean that that's sort of he had

934

00:45:56,128 --> 00:45:59,131

been put under oath and at some point in time

935

00:45:59,131 --> 00:46:03,594

like he raised his hand in front of Pilate or

936

00:46:03,594 --> 00:46:04,970

some court and said that he

937

00:46:04,970 --> 00:46:05,971

was going to like say the truth.

938

00:46:06,013 --> 00:46:08,140

But I think that Jesus is

939

00:46:08,307 --> 00:46:10,350

witness is much more silence than anything.

940

00:46:12,394 --> 00:46:13,687

And I don't think that there

941

00:46:13,687 --> 00:46:15,105

is that oath taking moment.

942

00:46:15,772 --> 00:46:19,568

Yeah, anyway, that's my my general argument is if

943

00:46:19,568 --> 00:46:20,444

it would have been an oath,

944

00:46:20,694 --> 00:46:21,987

Jesus would have refused it.

945

00:46:23,197 --> 00:46:25,949

And I think it's maybe that's

946

00:46:25,949 --> 00:46:28,327

like the slight escape.

947

00:46:28,327 --> 00:46:30,204

But I agree. It's not like an airtight.

948

00:46:30,204 --> 00:46:35,000

It's not an airtight issue.

949

00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,085

There's a lot of different angles to approach it.

950

00:46:37,085 --> 00:46:40,214

I'm still most convinced by the position I'm

951

00:46:40,214 --> 00:46:42,799

taking on it, despite the fact that there's a

952

00:46:42,799 --> 00:46:46,553

couple of answers there or a couple of examples,

953

00:46:46,553 --> 00:46:48,514

counter examples of like, what about this?

954

00:46:48,514 --> 00:46:49,973

What about this? But I don't think they're

955

00:46:49,973 --> 00:46:52,559

compelling enough to say just to

956

00:46:52,559 --> 00:46:53,727

bring it back to the very beginning.

957

00:46:53,977 --> 00:46:55,187

Why did Jesus spend this time

958

00:46:55,187 --> 00:46:56,438

teaching about not swearing?

959

00:46:57,189 --> 00:46:58,982

And then why does James say above all on it?

960

00:46:59,024 --> 00:47:04,446

If it really I guess my answer is my question

961

00:47:04,446 --> 00:47:05,989

back is like, so why did he

962

00:47:05,989 --> 00:47:07,157

teach on it in the first place?

963

00:47:07,157 --> 00:47:09,159

And why does James reiterate it? And why do the

964

00:47:09,159 --> 00:47:11,203

early Christians lose their lives for it?

965

00:47:12,704 --> 00:47:14,831

If it wasn't supposed to be interpreted the way

966

00:47:14,831 --> 00:47:15,999

that we're interpreting it.

967

00:47:15,999 --> 00:47:20,003

And I'm sure some people might pitch to you

968

00:47:20,003 --> 00:47:21,880

the Rome is different than the USA

969

00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,841

type arguments and stuff like that.

970

00:47:25,092 --> 00:47:26,677

So there's a lot there's I've

971

00:47:26,677 --> 00:47:28,053

encountered those arguments, too.

972

00:47:29,930 --> 00:47:32,933

Yeah, no, I'm not going to buy the argument that

973

00:47:32,933 --> 00:47:34,851

America is different from Rome

974

00:47:34,851 --> 00:47:36,812

when it comes to making oaths. Both-

975

00:47:37,646 --> 00:47:39,356

They make the same kinds of claims and the same

976

00:47:39,356 --> 00:47:43,360

kinds of, you know, totalizing claims and paint

977

00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:45,988

themselves as this huge force for

978

00:47:45,988 --> 00:47:47,906

good in the world and all of that that just

979

00:47:48,991 --> 00:47:52,619

Have a lot of parallels. But the passages from

980

00:47:52,619 --> 00:47:56,790

Paul, where he talks about calling God his

981

00:47:56,790 --> 00:47:58,333

witness or God is my witness.

982

00:48:01,420 --> 00:48:02,838

I don't have them. I wish I had it in front of me

983

00:48:02,838 --> 00:48:04,673

here, but as I thought about

984

00:48:04,673 --> 00:48:06,008

them, it seems more to me like-

985

00:48:08,927 --> 00:48:11,305

Like he's trying to impress on the people he's

986

00:48:11,305 --> 00:48:14,474

talking to that he's saying this in all

987

00:48:14,474 --> 00:48:17,561

seriousness or whatever than just

988

00:48:17,561 --> 00:48:19,479

something that Jesus told him that.

989

00:48:21,523 --> 00:48:24,484

Yeah, and this is where my wife and I were

990

00:48:24,484 --> 00:48:26,653

actually talking about this, preparing for this.

991

00:48:26,653 --> 00:48:28,572

There's another phrase that Jesus uses.

992

00:48:30,115 --> 00:48:31,742

And I need to look at the language. Jesus

993

00:48:31,742 --> 00:48:33,994

sometimes says verily, verily, I say to you.

994

00:48:33,994 --> 00:48:37,372

And then in the Greek, that's

995

00:48:37,372 --> 00:48:39,916

the Greek. That's amḗn, amen.

996

00:48:41,001 --> 00:48:44,129

Yeah, amḗn, amḗn, [indistinct] which is.

997

00:48:44,379 --> 00:48:49,676

And so the other like deescalating

998

00:48:49,676 --> 00:48:52,554

moment for those two is to say, hey, this is

999

00:48:52,554 --> 00:48:55,932

they're actually trying to draw attention to a

00:48:55,932 --> 00:48:57,684

certain phrase they're going to say within a

00:48:57,684 --> 00:48:59,770

larger moment of teaching

00:48:59,770 --> 00:49:01,980

kind of like the above all.

00:49:02,022 --> 00:49:05,484

And I don't I think Jesus, it's more compelling

00:49:05,484 --> 00:49:08,654

than Paul where sometimes you get it like

00:49:08,654 --> 00:49:12,115

you're in a conversation you tune out and you got

00:49:12,115 --> 00:49:13,325

to bring people's attention

00:49:13,325 --> 00:49:14,534

back to what you're saying.

00:49:15,369 --> 00:49:17,204

I think that there's actually an argument there

00:49:17,204 --> 00:49:20,290

with Jesus and like, why does he have to say

00:49:20,290 --> 00:49:22,626

truly, truly? I say to you, like, what's that?

00:49:23,001 --> 00:49:24,961

What's that? What's he doing there?

00:49:25,003 --> 00:49:27,756

I actually think he's trying to contrast a belief

00:49:27,756 --> 00:49:31,635

that they have and he knows that they

00:49:31,635 --> 00:49:32,803

believe something. But he's saying

00:49:32,803 --> 00:49:34,721

truly, truly. I say it's another way.

00:49:35,472 --> 00:49:38,183

Something like that. Paul, Paul, I'll just admit

00:49:38,183 --> 00:49:41,311

it's a little bit harder and I don't have like a

00:49:41,311 --> 00:49:44,815

slam dunk. I actually haven't come across a slam

00:49:44,815 --> 00:49:48,568

dunk like, oh, this is why this is how I fit

00:49:48,568 --> 00:49:50,987

Paul's language here within the oath taking.

00:49:51,571 --> 00:49:56,576

I will say it doesn't seem like he's- it doesn't

00:49:56,576 --> 00:49:59,788

seem like he's inviting punishment or going

00:49:59,788 --> 00:50:01,331

against what Jesus is

00:50:01,331 --> 00:50:02,457

saying there, like swearing.

00:50:03,166 --> 00:50:05,460

But I still I'd still avoid

00:50:05,460 --> 00:50:08,380

language like that myself.

00:50:09,047 --> 00:50:10,590

Still feels like pushing it.

00:50:12,050 --> 00:50:13,051

Yeah, it's pushing the

00:50:13,051 --> 00:50:13,969

limits for me. That's right.

00:50:15,011 --> 00:50:18,807

It's interesting the Schleitheim confession,

00:50:19,099 --> 00:50:22,561

which is before Calvin very early in the

00:50:22,561 --> 00:50:25,981

Anabaptist movement that has an article against

00:50:25,981 --> 00:50:27,983

taking oaths and they address

00:50:27,983 --> 00:50:29,985

this objection a little bit.

00:50:32,195 --> 00:50:34,740

"Others say if it is then wrong to use God for

00:50:34,740 --> 00:50:36,408

truth, then the apostles

00:50:36,408 --> 00:50:37,909

Peter and Paul also swore.

00:50:39,703 --> 00:50:42,581

Answer. Peter and Paul only testify to that which

00:50:42,581 --> 00:50:45,459

God promised Abraham, whom we long after have

00:50:45,459 --> 00:50:48,044

received. But when one testifies, one testifies

00:50:48,044 --> 00:50:48,837

concerning that which is

00:50:48,837 --> 00:50:50,964

present, whether it be good or evil."

00:50:54,926 --> 00:50:58,180

And it seems to me what they're trying to do is

00:50:58,180 --> 00:51:01,057

to say while they're talking about the present,

00:51:01,057 --> 00:51:02,934

they're not making any commitments for the future

00:51:02,934 --> 00:51:03,769

about what they're going

00:51:03,769 --> 00:51:05,937

to do or not going to do.

00:51:06,354 --> 00:51:10,192

Right. And they're just they're not making a

00:51:10,192 --> 00:51:12,486

commitment or anything along those lines.

00:51:14,488 --> 00:51:16,990

Yeah, I'm compelled. I mean, I think it's a good argument.

00:51:18,742 --> 00:51:22,078

And I find it interesting that it was published

00:51:22,078 --> 00:51:24,456

and available before John Calvin wrote. It

00:51:24,456 --> 00:51:25,749

obviously didn't convince him,

00:51:25,749 --> 00:51:29,169

but this was an earlier confession.

00:51:31,379 --> 00:51:35,801

But even Sattler, I pulled something up on him.

00:51:37,093 --> 00:51:40,597

When the Anabaptists were being martyred, he

00:51:40,597 --> 00:51:45,894

also, he then takes Jesus' teaching and he says,

00:51:46,228 --> 00:51:48,355

I mean, I'll just read something. "At his trial,

00:51:48,563 --> 00:51:50,774

Sattler defended the Anabaptists refusal to take

00:51:50,774 --> 00:51:53,777

any oath by citing Matthew, Matthew five there

00:51:53,777 --> 00:51:56,279

justifying their stance with Matthew five as the

00:51:56,279 --> 00:51:57,614

law of Christ for Christians.

00:51:58,240 --> 00:52:00,075

And this be a simple, truthful yes or no should

00:52:00,075 --> 00:52:02,327

suffice for a Christian and invoking oaths was a

00:52:02,327 --> 00:52:05,038

practice of old law that Christ had superseded.

00:52:07,249 --> 00:52:11,044

Yeah, I like that that "Christ's teaching

00:52:11,044 --> 00:52:15,006

supersedes." It's sort of like the proverbial

00:52:15,006 --> 00:52:18,552

trump card that you get to pull out.

00:52:18,969 --> 00:52:21,429

And it seems pretty simple, but yeah.

00:52:23,348 --> 00:52:25,350

Yeah, very good. Thank you.

00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:27,769

Anything else you'd like to close with?

00:52:29,563 --> 00:52:34,526

I mean, not necessarily. I know that this is an

00:52:34,526 --> 00:52:36,987

odd. It's an odd. I think people

00:52:36,987 --> 00:52:38,572

are like, why is this such a big deal?

00:52:39,447 --> 00:52:42,242

It's a weird thing to sort of have a hobby horse

00:52:42,242 --> 00:52:44,911

about. And when I get asked to talk about it, I

00:52:44,911 --> 00:52:47,330

feel like I'm there's not too many people who

00:52:47,330 --> 00:52:50,667

like to talk about it passionately.

00:52:50,667 --> 00:52:54,838

But I do think that at the end of the day, Jesus

00:52:54,838 --> 00:53:00,677

and God weigh our words heavier than we do. I

00:53:00,677 --> 00:53:02,178

think that's if you read the New

00:53:02,178 --> 00:53:05,056

Testament, I always am struck by.

00:53:05,849 --> 00:53:08,059

There's a few passages I read. I'm like, I kind

00:53:08,059 --> 00:53:10,020

of want to zip my mouth. I want to have a zipper

00:53:10,020 --> 00:53:14,441

on my mouth sometimes and be very careful that we

00:53:14,441 --> 00:53:18,528

think we should be very careful to open that in a lot of different scenarios.

00:53:19,446 --> 00:53:22,282

Especially with gossip, especially with teaching

00:53:22,282 --> 00:53:25,368

truth or leading others away from truth. And I do

00:53:25,368 --> 00:53:29,664

think that this is another category of when we

00:53:29,664 --> 00:53:33,084

are using words just to be very careful and

00:53:33,084 --> 00:53:37,422

diligent, slow to speak, and consider what we're committing to.

00:53:37,589 --> 00:53:40,258

And I think that that in itself is a good

00:53:40,258 --> 00:53:42,928

principle to draw away from oath taking is just

00:53:42,928 --> 00:53:45,764

to say, hey, we're called to be a people who

00:53:45,764 --> 00:53:47,223

weigh our words before we use

00:53:47,223 --> 00:53:50,518

them. And I'm a very talkative person.

00:53:50,518 --> 00:53:54,230

So I'm sort of pointing at myself here is

00:53:54,230 --> 00:53:58,151

that words matter and the above all matter. And

00:53:58,151 --> 00:54:00,695

so this isn't an inconsequential teaching. And it

00:54:00,695 --> 00:54:05,158

really does change sort of your stance on this

00:54:05,158 --> 00:54:07,118

will limit you into what types

00:54:07,118 --> 00:54:09,955

of activities you're partaking in.

00:54:09,955 --> 00:54:13,917

And I think in a really good way, not taking

00:54:13,917 --> 00:54:16,628

oaths precludes you from serving in certain

00:54:16,628 --> 00:54:18,922

positions. And that's where I think that Jesus

00:54:18,922 --> 00:54:20,423

was more of a genius than

00:54:20,423 --> 00:54:22,676

we might give him credit for.

00:54:22,676 --> 00:54:25,679

And I don't know how much foreknowledge Jesus had

00:54:25,679 --> 00:54:28,640

of the future and which systems would require

00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:32,560

oaths to participate in it. But I do think that

00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:37,691

he he did have foresight to warn his believers

00:54:37,691 --> 00:54:40,402

that, hey, I'm going to give you this teaching

00:54:40,402 --> 00:54:43,571

and stick to it and it will keep you on the straight and narrow.

00:54:43,571 --> 00:54:47,283

And I do think that that oath taking is part of

00:54:47,283 --> 00:54:49,661

that set of teachings, building your house on the

00:54:49,661 --> 00:54:54,165

rock, not on the sand. So not to not to dismiss

00:54:54,165 --> 00:54:56,751

it as inconsequential because it's in the

00:54:56,751 --> 00:54:58,378

set of teachings that we sing about.

00:54:58,378 --> 00:55:00,422

We teach our kids about, you know, building your

00:55:00,422 --> 00:55:03,133

house on the rock and just not to write it off

00:55:03,133 --> 00:55:06,594

too quickly, even though it might not touch.

00:55:06,594 --> 00:55:09,431

your everyday life and also

00:55:09,431 --> 00:55:12,934

not to be scared. I think that's like a huge a

00:55:12,934 --> 00:55:14,602

huge part of what I'm trying to say. I don't want

00:55:14,602 --> 00:55:17,272

to be like a hey, you should fear every time you

00:55:17,272 --> 00:55:20,233

sign your name. Even this

00:55:20,233 --> 00:55:21,484

is another example. Sorry.

00:55:21,484 --> 00:55:23,820

We won't get into this, but I'm actually haven't

00:55:23,820 --> 00:55:27,657

settled this yet. When you click the box after

00:55:27,657 --> 00:55:32,871

like buying a software package, that's like 10 pages long

00:55:32,871 --> 00:55:36,207

and you click that box. It says, I've read and understand this

00:55:36,207 --> 00:55:40,420

Man, that one actually really gets me still. Are

00:55:40,420 --> 00:55:43,673

you allowed to click that box? If you didn't read

00:55:43,673 --> 00:55:47,385

the 10 pages, you should get back to me on that

00:55:47,385 --> 00:55:51,973

one. But I don't think that we need to fear like God is

00:55:51,973 --> 00:55:55,977

somebody on the gotcha moments on on some of the legal contracts.

00:55:56,352 --> 00:55:58,688

I'm also trying not to take like a fear mongering

00:55:58,688 --> 00:56:02,400

stance and really just trying to reiterate just

00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:05,320

kind of having it in your toolkit of Jesus's

00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,364

teachings and not not letting it slip over time

00:56:08,364 --> 00:56:11,201

and even to preach on it every once in a while in

00:56:11,201 --> 00:56:14,454

churches. I think is really good.

00:56:14,537 --> 00:56:18,208

I don't know. Our church tries to recycle some of our important doctrines

00:56:18,208 --> 00:56:20,710

every once in a while. So our children don't forget.

00:56:20,877 --> 00:56:23,088

I think about that all the time like, hey, I've

00:56:23,088 --> 00:56:25,799

gone through this stuff. How do I- I know my sons

00:56:25,799 --> 00:56:28,051

probably won't and so how do we keep these things

00:56:28,051 --> 00:56:30,512

alive and I don't know the all the answers to

00:56:30,512 --> 00:56:33,640

that, but at least recycling studying history is a

00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,518

great way to do it having podcasts talking about it.

00:56:36,518 --> 00:56:38,186

So thanks for the invitation.

00:56:38,186 --> 00:56:40,480

Yeah, thank you, Zach. And that was precisely

00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:43,733

part of our thought process is that this is

00:56:43,733 --> 00:56:48,279

something that, you know, seems can seem obscure

00:56:48,279 --> 00:56:51,950

or whatever doesn't get talked about a lot and we wanted

00:56:51,950 --> 00:56:57,038

to address it. So thank you for joining us for that.

00:56:57,038 --> 00:57:00,208

Absolutely. And then if you're wanting to

00:57:00,208 --> 00:57:02,502

read, I do think you'll be inspired by the early

00:57:02,502 --> 00:57:05,713

Christian witness of martyrdom for this teaching

00:57:05,713 --> 00:57:10,301

itself. Just to reiterate that some people did literally

00:57:10,301 --> 00:57:13,847

lose their heads to adhere to this teaching.

00:57:13,847 --> 00:57:16,850

And I think that that should also paint some sort

00:57:16,850 --> 00:57:20,770

of meaning for how important it was, even though

00:57:20,770 --> 00:57:22,564

that we don't face the same consequences.

00:57:25,483 --> 00:57:27,777

Thank you to our audience for joining us for this

00:57:27,777 --> 00:57:30,780

podcast. If you enjoyed this discussion on oaths

00:57:30,780 --> 00:57:34,075

and some of that story, we did get a little more

00:57:34,075 --> 00:57:37,745

of his story in a previous podcast Exiting the Air Force

00:57:37,954 --> 00:57:40,665

which we will link below. You can follow us there.