It really is a delusion that we're in control of anything.

Do you control your wife, Tim, and every opinion she has and action.

you've had kids, right?

Did you control every one of their choices and behaviors?

do you control your health?

Do you control your ultimate income?

the end of your life?

When's that?

No, we don't really control anything.

God does, but we live in this sort of false narrative that we are,

and that, see for me, that traces all the way back to the beginning

when, what was the first sin?

they said, what we can manage the knowledge of good and evil and right

and wrong for ourselves, and we'll create an identity apart from God.

Welcome to Seek Go Create.

This is where we challenge conventional definitions of success, explore

stories of transformation in leadership, business, and ministry.

we're gonna be talking to Caesar Kalinowski, a dedicated father,

church planner, coach, and bestselling author is impacted thousands of

lives all over the world, equipping individuals in discipleship and mission.

Caesar, welcome to Seek.

Go Create.

Hey Tim, good to be with you.

Thanks for having me on.

I'm excited.

Been looking forward to this conversation.

Yeah.

I'll tell you what, I think you're the first guy.

You know what?

No, you're not.

You're not the first guy we've had named Caesar.

I had a guy that was spelled differently.

that's like a strong name.

If you've got a name like Caesar, you're strong.

spelling.

It's like the pizza, the salad, the emperor.

you know what, it's a family name.

I'm the third Caesar.

My son's the fourth.

My grandson Caesar five, aired to the throne.

And it turns out I didn't know this most of my life, I had an old buck.

Guy, a historian, in Poland.

Tell me, oh, cuz I said, how do these two names go together?

He says, Kalinowski, that's, it's a royal name in, in Poland.

And then I had Googled, I knew that somewhere back in history we

were royalty, whatever that means.

And and he goes, Kaiser, it's ruler, Kaiser Kalinowski, very regal

name, very royal name, family name.

I'm like, oh yeah, it's family name for us.

And he goes, there you go.

that's how it works.

There's a lot of Caesars floating around three living right now.

That's my life goal now Tim, is to get to the point where we have

a photo with four living Caesars.

It's never happened yet.

So I'm hoping.

We don't have as cool of a name in our family, but we had, Kelly

was a middle name that my, my grandfather had, my father had, I had, and then my son

had, so it was a bunch of, Timothy Kelly, Joshua Kelly, Garland Kelly, all that.

And so that was cool.

But real quick, I'm getting off.

My first question I'll get to in just a moment, but what are the pros and

cons of having a name like Caesar?

Because my first thought is world ruler, strong leader,

That's me bro.

that's you, man.

Cool.

it's interesting cuz I, I used before there was all video and

everybody knows what you look like and all this, or hear you, they would say, I

just assumed by your name, you were this little short guy chomping on a cigar.

And I used to hear that all the time.

It was the weird little combination of stuff.

it is definitely a strong name.

it l luckily Kowski is phonetic so people can mostly figure out how to pronounce

it mostly, but, I, it's hard to know what the negatives are, to be honest with you.

I think it sounds v it ha has to sound very European and I'm gonna come on

with a LOV accent and you gotta very, and but when you grow up and it's

generational, it sounds like the most normal thing in the world right now.

What's interesting is since the invention of Google and the internet,

nu old books can kinda remember when this stuff all started.

you know what?

Because I am an author and speaker and got zillions of videos and

all that stuff, you can Google my name and a lot of stuff comes up.

But now my son, who's an attorney and he's become quite a First Amendment

warrior nationally and well known and quoted and all, now he's coming

up a lot and I think he's gonna, he's gonna, he's younger, right?

So he's gonna exceed that.

So it's fun.

I don't know if the goods or the bads, but I think, we've

all been strong-willed males.

I'll tell you that.

You know

you have to own it.

And I think there is some degree of, it's decreed what your name is.

I think names are important.

I'm in the middle of reading in the Old Testament, and they have real

meaning, when you go through it.

So I, it does conjure up with me.

I must admit.

I'm sitting here doing my research, I'm studying and I'm going Caesar strong,

here was my father's consternation.

He had me have a military haircut until I was old enough to rebel against that.

And and part of what this was is I looked up, I said, do you

know what the name Caesar means?

Which is your name?

And you gave me, it means ruler with long hair.

I'm growing my hair.

Dig it, don't dig it.

and I was playing in a rock band back then, so I was like,

I can't have this haircut.

Yeah.

Now I'm back to, of course,

and I guess you just stay away from the ides of March, right?

you don't get bogged down with it.

my favorite holiday.

Not a good day.

hey Caesar, we bump into each other like we have here, and I just ask you, or

I wanna know more icebreaker question.

I ask you what you do.

What do you tell people?

When people ask what you do,

it depends.

Are you asking as a Christian podcaster, are you asking as a neighbor?

I just met cuz I probably have a slightly different response.

me what they are.

That's cool though.

I'll tell you how I most often answer people.

I just go, I'm an author and a speaker and, my wife and I do some

coaching as well based on the things we write and, I speak on and if it

stops there, people are like, oh wow, an author, how's that school?

And they get into the technical side, oh, how'd you get to write books?

whatever.

and it's kinda need to know basis.

And if they go, oh, what do you write about?

Then I go, I write about spirituality and faith lived out in everyday life.

And they go, what kind of spirituality or faith?

I said, Christianity, but not so much about the formalized, Evangelical

complex, per se, but what if we really believe all this and what's it look like

to live it out, not only just on our Sunday experience, but all throughout

the week and make that real for us and our family and friends and all.

Everybody's always that's so cool.

So that's what I do.

And and but if someone else asks and they're Christian, I go, I write books

about the gospel and discipleship in all of life, and I'm a coach

and I get to travel all over the world and talk about these things.

Yeah, what's interesting, I love how you distinguished between

the two because I do think it.

Depends on the setting.

if you're around a bunch of business people, you might just

casually mention something, then see if there's additional dialogue.

I do similar, but if you're in more of a church setting, one of the things that I

think you, you say that people love when you bring up, every day to disciples and

how to live out your faith every day.

But I, I'm not so convinced that everyone is excited about that.

I think that there's a group of people that they want to keep people boxed

in to the Sunday, maybe a Wednesday.

So to, to me there's a bit of a contrast between every day

disciple and I'll call it the religious or church world out there.

Am I reading something?

Ha.

Have you ever seen that?

I bet you have.

let me just so I can answer accurately, Tim, who do you think

is the pe who are you putting in the wants to keep people in the Sunday box?

Who do you think's that?

I would say,

The complex.

Yeah, let's call it the man or the system, the

complex, the religious system.

I call it church world at times.

and it probably has a little bit of a cynicism tone to

I find it very rare that anybody is gonna speak, from within

the system, you know, against, hey, living out your faith in everyday life.

That's what they say.

you drive out the church building and it says you're entering

your mission field, right?

Those signs, you know all this stuff.

No one's really speaking against it.

However, I have, I run into this pretty much every single day is when

you get to the thing behind the thing and they start to read our stuff or

listen to the podcast, they pretty quickly see that we're fine, love

Sunday, let's get together, let's gather, let's worship all that.

But they realize that we go, but the six days and 22 hours that are left

over that, that out balances that two hours of sitting in rows in silence.

How do we live this out every day?

And then they go, yeah, that's what we gotta get our people to do.

And I said, Faster, or elder or whatever.

That starts with you and your family.

Living with an open home, having people in, learning a gospel fluency

where you can speak the good news to all of life, not just people's

afterlife upgrade and all that.

And then that's when it, that's when the conversation goes, pivot often.

And I don't mean it to be polemic, but I've learned that it is

inherently polemic because it begins to be compared and contrasted.

what's wrong with the way we're doing it?

It's nothing but if that's it.

I'm certain a hundred percent as an old brother that Jesus didn't come and die.

So we could sit and rows in silence for an hour or two a week.

I'm certain it was meant to be more than that, just having read the whole

book and then I don't want to give away the story, but I have read all the

way to the end of the book and we win.

Like it's all getting restored.

This is how it's gonna be, and we get to be a part of that whole thing.

Now, Jesus said, on earth, as it is in heaven, ask Dad for that.

we're gonna, and what we've found is when you live this way and you live

expectantly, Hey, maybe what Jesus said and lived is real and we can do it now.

You get to, turns out we get to, and I, and no, I have seen

and no, but we've not conceived.

How awesome is when it's all consummated and heaven happens fully,

but it's, I think life's pretty awesome now in light of what Christ

has done for us and now having his spirit and being the family of God.

Oh, so yeah.

Yeah.

What's your progression been because you, in.

Your in, in your information.

You've got church planner and I believe some of your history is, we'll call it

being a part of that traditional system and what you just brought up and I agree

that there's probably or can be some uncomfortableness with people in that

traditional system with what you're doing, what I, what we're doing here too.

And I went to Bible school for a few years.

I've been around churches.

I love what goes on in church.

What I don't like is when sometimes people begin building their

kingdom instead of God's kingdom.

And we see that quite often.

But what's been your progression?

How have you ended up to this place you are now where you're helping people in a

daily walk, which does sound a lot like the first century church by the way.

Just, I just want to observe that.

Yeah.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna super compress the beginning of the story and

I'll take a little more time in the, maybe the parts that are more relevant today.

So I was, I've been going to church since I was like a

zygote, like in my mother's womb.

Okay.

Boom.

And that's what we used to call it going to church, and no one taught

that our identity is, you either are the church or you're not.

But we went to this building that we called the church and, did church.

And so I did that my whole life.

around 18, the whole, lifestyle of sex, drugs and Roth and

roll kicked in pretty good.

Moved outta the house and I was like, and done with that too.

So I didn't go to church anymore for a little while.

God super got ahold of my heart, my life, through an actual

message on Gospel and Kingdom.

when I was about 25, my wife and I.

On the same night at a Christian retreat that I don't even know why, I agreed to

go to, heard a message about Lordship and Kingdom and God transformed us and we got

back to our hotel room at this retreat that I still didn't know I was there.

And, I said to my wife, I said, I gotta tell you something.

She goes no, I need to tell you something.

And I said, no, me first.

And I told her, I said, listen, Jesus is Lord, I want him to be Lord.

I wanna be Lord of our family, our marriage.

I don't know.

I'm ruining us.

I don't know what we're doing.

And she goes, me too.

That's what happened tonight.

So on that same night, we had this grace upon us.

And from that night to today, it's been a straight line of we're in, it was

never, we never got real Luke Warmy.

It was like, we're in, sign us up for everything, now jump way ahead.

We're, my wife and I are serial entrepreneurs.

We've owned and operated many businesses.

Dozens actually.

And, at 40.

Running a very successful publishing business.

I got the call to the pastorate, God, almost audibly said, Hey,

you're gonna be a pastor now.

And I was like, okay, you're God.

So I say, yes, but I'm not one.

So how's that gonna happen?

And, now me, so I said yes, and he worked out some just miraculous

things with my business partners and all, and how it worked out.

And all of a sudden I was extricated from a lot of responsibility and I

had a huge severance package and I was free, but I wasn't a pastor yet, but

God was still working on this, took a whole 90 days before I was actually

hired on at the megachurch as a pastor.

It was weird, right?

but along the way, and this is where I'll slow it down a little bit.

Along the way, I had been doing quite a lot of international missions travel,

not this is gonna sound derogatory, not the Weekend warrior missions trip

where you go and you stack bricks on a building, and help out for a few

days and then you do some beach and then you hand out some tracks in the

city square and you head home it was like, God was taking us to like war

zones and where there was Christian persecution happening horribly and natural

disasters and whenever it was crazy.

And whenever we were there, a couple things.

One was, God had me read the book of Acts.

It was always like, Hey, your trip time with me.

Read the book Acts.

And after a while, that just became the pattern over the years.

Cause I did a lot of this.

Every time I was on the road internationally, I started reading

the book Acts over and over.

God's pretty awesome.

What was happening is like when we were with the church in.

Sudan or Burma in the bush or whatever.

The church had nothing, Tim.

no things like the word nothing.

No things like almost no clothing in many cases.

Homes, no.

food.

Optional.

And yet the church, the people, cuz they didn't have buildings or any of that

were so beautiful and so full of joy.

Even as they told us stories of great persecution and crazy

stuff, they were enduring.

And I remember like thinking, wow, like for the last several

weeks we've been in the bush.

Being the church.

And then by the miracle of flight, I'd fly home and like within 24 hours,

48 hours, I'm driving up the Dr.

Giant driveway to the mega ranch, right?

Guys are with the vests and the orange cones, and they're parking us.

And I'm getting sent to the overflow lot and I'm like, Hey, put the window down.

You see who this is?

I'm not parking back there.

I'm wor I'm, come on, you saw me up there, and it was like this evil heart.

And it was like, now I'm back and I'm head of production.

So it's like headsets, huge.

Team lights, camera action.

Tim, camera three.

You're little slow on camera three.

you gotta tip that up a little sooner.

We need a little more smoke on the left side of the stage.

Literally.

Literally, bro.

All that stuff.

and the contrast of what I had just come from, and now what I was experiencing.

It got bigger and wider and thicker and deeper trip after trip.

And this all started before I was even on staff, at the mega ranch.

And, eventually this question started to arise.

And I know other Christians have had this question.

you've done short term missions.

You're like, man, this was crazy.

we didn't know these people.

We didn't like the smells.

The food was weird, but man, what an experience.

And we pulled together and we saw God do some crazy stuff and in us, and you come

back and you go, wouldn't it be crazy if we just lived that way all the time?

Wouldn't it be just amazing?

And then we just, God said, then too.

Like I said, Lord, I would give everything I have to have the joy they have in you.

And he goes, then do.

And so long story short that, that megachurch, my wife and I were both

on staff there, so were some other friends of ours, and we ended up moving

out to Tacoma, Washington to live like missionaries in another country called

Tacoma and said, what if we live that way?

I don't know, what do you do when you move to another country if you're going

there to plant the gospel and see what God does with it and transforms community?

We just started to get to know people.

We lived with an open home, which we already did.

we got to know everybody's names.

We worked locally.

We were in cafes all the time.

I got known as the pub pastor cuz I just hung out in my locals all the time and

people would figure out who you were.

And then I listen, pastor, I need to talk to you about something.

All right, let's go.

You're buying, and we started to make disciples.

We're making disciples.

And when people come to faith that way, in community that way, very

different than worst day of my life.

I raised my hand, I said to Jesus in my heart, prayer about my afterlife,

and I'm hoping to God my wife will take me back, kind of thing.

God cares about all that.

I'm not dis, I'm not belittling that, but when a person walks in the ways of

Jesus in community over months and years with you and comes to trust Jesus in more

and more areas of their life, that it's a very different type of Christian and

they're like, man, I gotta get my sister into this and my mom wants to hang out.

Is that cool?

I'm like, of course it is.

we're a family.

And so that, that's how that whole sort of transition happened.

And so we're not anti and the way anybody wants to gather it up and

all that, but if the ways we gather and program and fund get in the way

of the only mission Jesus gave us.

As the church, as his family go and make disciples.

then I think we get to question some of that,

I wanna come back to this disciple, but I wanna, that unique pers.

Perspective is so cool Caesar, because some people never experienced that.

they walk in the doors of their church, small, big, mega, whatever,

and they go there every week and they never go anywhere else.

My wife and I have traveled quite a bit and so we've visited

churches in a lot of places.

We've seen some of the things you're talking about.

We weren't necessarily on missions trips, but I think it's interesting

to see different contrast in just the way people do what we'll

call more traditional church.

And you brought up the word joy, and so I want to dig a little bit on that word.

you brought up what?

Many people possibly listening to this that are probably first

world, probably United States.

We've got people in other parts of the world, but a lot of United

States listeners, they probably are sitting in a place with it.

They're not in an RV like me, but they've got probably multiple TV screens.

They probably got multiple vehicles, and they probably have some degree of

stress or lack of joy in their life.

And they may be going to some of those churches you talk about.

But yet you went to those places where people probably had none of the things

I just brought up, but yet they are allowed to gather and worship the Lord.

I don't wanna say it's pure, but maybe that's a word.

What's up?

What?

Why do we lack so much joy when all of a sudden we have all of

these things that, That distract us all these other treasures.

Yeah, maybe there's your answer in that.

I said, Hey, there's times when I don't have joy in my life.

There's times when, I'm not feeling blessed, even though

I'm immensely blessed, or I get myopically worried about first world

problems and things that really are adventures and missing the point.

And I'm not sovereign.

I don't get to control that stuff, what I've learned though is that I can almost

always pretty quickly now draw a line back to what's the thing behind the thing?

And it's, I'm not believing.

Who God is and what he has said is now true of us because of Christ, our

identity, our authority, our privilege.

And I'm tr I'm living basically in a delusional that I'm controlling

this or I'm, I'm in charge of this.

It really is a delusion that we're in control of anything.

Do you control your wife, Tim, and every opinion she has and action.

you've had kids, right?

Did you control every one of their choices and behaviors?

do you control your health?

Do you control your ultimate income?

the end of your life?

When's that?

No, we don't really control anything.

God does, but we live in this sort of false narrative that we are,

and that, see for me, that traces all the way back to the beginning

when, what was the first sin?

they said, what we can manage the knowledge of good and evil and right

and wrong for ourselves, and we'll create an identity apart from God.

Watch this.

That's the same thing that's going on in my heart often.

And I think when the church.

Dropped the gospel narrative for the afterlife upgrade gospel when they

dropped the narrative of discipleship, which is moving from unbelief to

belief in every area of the gospel.

moving from lies to truth about who God is, what he's done in Christ, and what's

now true of us, and how we get to live.

When we lost that for a, we gotta get everybody to say a prayer about their

afterlife, and Christianity became about sin management and behavioral

modification, now we're left with the law.

We're left with, okay, I guess my ticket's been punched, but

my job now is to try to sin less between now when Jesus comes back.

Is that really what this is about?

Let me talk to my neighbors and see if that sounds like good news.

Nope.

Not to them.

So I won't talk to them about that.

and so now if I'm living under that same tyranny and I'm not living out of my

true identity, then I'm still left with.

Back to the original sin, managing the knowledge of good and evil and

building an identity for myself.

And you know what ticks me off, Tim, is when you don't salute my identity,

when I'm doing my best to put the glory up there for your brother and

you're like, no, not digging it.

And I go, that Tim guy.

You know what I mean?

Or when my wife is not going along with my sovereignty, in the house or my

now adult kids go, I don't know, dad.

I don't think so.

I think that's wrong.

I don't think that's the way we wanna be doing that, then, and I

get consternation over that and I get all chipped out about it.

What's going on?

I am not believing what's true about God and what's really true about myself.

And I think that's the thing behind the thing of where all of her lack of joy

or stress or all this stuff comes from.

And like I said, I still experience it all the time, but it comes from unbelief.

Roman says this, it says that all sin comes from unbelief.

Sins not the action.

Hey, I hollered at Tina today.

My, to my wife or whatever.

I was really rude to her.

The act, that's not the sin.

The sin is the unbelief behind it of who God is, who he's made her to

be, who He's made me to be And I am I living in light of that, see, the

most natural way we can lift him is to live out of our true identity.

Think about that.

This is who I am.

I get to be, I don't prop that up.

I didn't create it.

I don't sustain it.

I'm completely loved in just who I am.

Do to be that do, to be distortion of what you do equals who you are and your value.

That's not true.

That's a lie.

that's called the beast in scripture.

when we start to move beyond that, then there's real joy and freedom.

And I think to tie it all the way back when we were with the church

in a war zone or whether it's great Christian persecution and they,

there's no due to be, in fact, if they do, they will be persecuted.

They're, they're being, they're saying, yeah, my, my brother was

chopped to death and thrown in a fire in front of me by Muslim.

militants cuz we're Christians and they still have great joy in their life.

I'm so grateful to God though he's better than me and he's providing

him like, oh my god, this is crazy.

Right.

I, I think what it's going on there is they believe who God is.

He's their only hope.

They get that, and from that comes that peace that passes understanding.

You're like, I'd be kicked off if I had to live in a mud hut.

And half my family was, killed because of our faith.

And they're also, I love the fact that you've mentioned identity

twice because I, I think that there's a bit of a crisis in identity in the

world because people are questioning it.

There are a lot of people that claim to be Christians and followers of Christ that

I'm not sure if they grasp their identity.

And one of the things we see with conflicts is people aren't comfortable

with their identity, so it's difficult to accept others' identity.

And so instead of, I think you said salute was the word to use, I think

people are wanting and demanding that you not just accept who I am,

but I want you to celebrate me.

I

Oh yeah.

Even if it's completely a false narrative, if I even get a whiff, Tim, that you're

not on the same page with me and ready to celebrate this distortion, bye.

Can't handle it.

Can't.

And it causes so much conflict.

I want, there's one thing that I want to address and I'll, I'm gonna ask

it somewhat generic and I'll let you be as specific as you desire to be.

There are the megachurches in our society today get a lot of flack and I think some

of it's well-deserved too, by the way.

But I know the one you attended, I'll let you share if you want to.

I know that at one point it was one of the fastest growing.

Biggest around and later they ran into some challenges

because of some leadership.

What are some of the pros and cons to that structure?

I'm a business structure guy.

I'm an engineer, and I am coming to where I really love the small group

non, all the time, full-time ministry.

And so I wanna be careful here.

I don't want to get into throwing a bunch of stuff around, but I would

like, just because your perspective to share whatever you're comfortable with

about just observations and things we're seeing with that big church, structure.

it's interesting we're seeing that kind of

dismantle itself in recent years, largely from top down, right?

Sort of the cult of personalities crumbling.

That's not working as well as it maybe once did.

Now of course where it's still working, they're like a hundred

percent, cuz there's a bit of a bubble, that, that folks live in.

I think we, maybe we all do.

See, I have people assume because we talk about living out our faith in

everyday life, which is gonna mean in smaller communities primarily.

Even if as we regather those or however we regather those,

they assume we're anti that.

and of course we're not.

I believe in the gathering of the saints.

I believe in the sharing of all the giftings at the maturest level that God,

will grace us with gathering up together.

And all that stuff's a benefit and a blessing to us.

It's grace.

However, the command is, go and make disciples.

The command is not get loads of people in a building to sing about me.

Just it's not.

And I, I know

and have smoke.

And have smoke machines.

You brought it up earlier.

It's

Yeah.

or whatever, or, we don't do that.

We just have the barnwood wall now that all the mediums to small churches

all like mandatory got three to five years ago, I don't know what

happened all, but they all have it.

It's crazy, And and and we're doing the songs that come from one of

four organizations largely just saw a report on this crazy right.

Which, people ask me all the time, do you know this song?

I'm like, Nope.

Cuz I don't listen to any of that, I think that when all of a sudden our

focus there again got off of make disciples who make disciples, you, the

benefit gets lost of wait a minute, just getting 300 people or 500 people

or 20,000 people in a room together.

that's not discipleship.

It might be worship, it might not be, a preaching of the word.

If it's the gospel.

And it's not due to be, if it's not now you got, here's how

you have to go live like Jesus.

So go muster that up.

That's law.

that's not the gospel.

There's no should in the gospel or shouldn't.

There's you get to right or you need not cuz Christ already took care of all that.

I think the negative of that is if that's the focus, how do you make disciples

when you're sitting, in rows and rows?

So let me give you an analogy by God's grace.

And it really is, my wife and I were both raised in broken homes by wolves

and the only thing we knew when we got married is we don't know nothing

about being married and raising kids.

But our kids, we have three boy, girl told you about Caesar already.

they're all adults now and having families and raising kids, and they

all still love God and they love people and they love their mom and

dad, and we're all like best friends.

It's nuts.

Like the dream can be real.

Okay.

And, people ask us all the time, how did you and Tina raise such great kids?

they really are.

And they really, they're fun.

if you came over and hung out tonight, you'd feel like part

of team K, part of the family.

They would treat you all like family.

That's how we roll.

And you'd go, man, this is a fun place, bunch to hang on.

So people ask all the time, what if Tina said, this is crazy.

All we did was this how we raised our kids once a week on the weekend, usually

Sunday morning, we lined up a bunch of chairs and rows in the living room.

And Tina says, me and the kids, we sat there in those

rows and, largely in silence.

We sang a couple camp songs, that they're not that great, we sing them.

And then Caesar had this little stand thing.

He'd stand up in front of the living room and he would talk to us about

the Bible for about 30, 45 minutes.

He liked to go long though.

And and then we'd say, see you next week, kids.

and and they're like, I'm doing so, oh, maybe the next week you come in Wednesday.

No, that's okay.

you guys have a great week man.

We love y'all.

And then, and we would do that.

And it wasn't even every Sunday, cuz people are busy, but it was

most Sundays and that's all we did.

And they turned out amazing.

Now it's such a goofy analogy that it really hammers that nail, doesn't it?

Because you could never raise kids that way, that are, effective adults

and love each other and love God and people and give their lives of service

and, and they're generous and all.

You couldn't do that in an hour and a half a week sitting in rose and silence.

And yet, somehow we think we're gonna form spiritually mature people

who are generous and love God, and love each other, and love people and

live like a close family doing that.

The advantages of living in smaller community is the

primary organizing structure.

hey, this is where life and ministry and discipleship happens, and we get

to come together and blow it up, man, if you like, that sort of thing, go

for it, smoke it out, but the benefit of living the way that we see in

scripture, but the only way we see in scripture is you get to live as a family.

That word oikos, the church in Corinth, whatever, it was always

oikos, which means extended family.

And this is what we talk about on our Everyday Disciple podcast in all of our

coaching exclusively, is it, as you live this kingdom life, as you live in light

of the truth of who God is and what he says is true of us now because of Christ.

And you let the rings of your relationship of your family life and the kingdom

move out to include more and more others and treat them as family.

It's amazing.

What ha That's your OI cost.

That's amazing.

What happens?

So for us, that's neighbors.

That's our kids.

That's a bunch of our kids' friends.

It's our friends who are friends with our kids.

It's people that are employees.

It's someone we met at, the cafe that we go to a million times.

It's the guy who tends bar at the pub, our local, that's our OI costs

and we open up our home and our life completely to those people.

We don't hide our faith.

They're super interested in wondering about it.

those who show up and hang out, people with peace.

There's a real advantage to raising a family that way.

And just like God doesn't give us litters, usually we don't have here's

a dozen kids, or here's 20,000 kids.

They try to raise you, get 'em one at a time.

You know what I mean?

they come in or two or three at a time max, kinda usually you can't

disciple in every area of life.

You can't disciple people mass sitting in rose and silence

just giving them information.

Or Jesus would've done it that way.

I'm convinced of it.

I think it's a challenge.

I do think that maybe struggle, we know we, people can quote the

scriptures where to make disciples and.

and that is one of our commandments, I think.

I'm really wondering if some of us, I'll go and throw me in here and so I'll,

I'm gonna let you define this for us.

Some of us don't understand what the word disciple means.

Obviously it's got a

or discipleship.

discipleship discipline, things like that.

So maybe before we go any further, Caesar, why don't we, let's talk a bit

about what that really means because it is thrown around quite a bit.

I went to bible school for a few years, had a similar experience where there was

someone talking at me most of the time and I was taking notes and studying and,

doing the things you should be doing.

But they would say that your role here is to be discipled and I

actually think that maybe we don't.

Really grasp what disciple means.

So talk to us, define it, give all that you can so that we can try to understand

what discipleship and disciple means.

We've had to try to break this down.

Tim, it's a great question.

We've had to try to break it down so that it wasn't.

There again, where we're chasing two different things, but using the same word.

and for us, the what we say, here's our definition of discipleship, and

then we'll talk about what's, and then what's a disciple Discipleship.

We believe ultimately is this process of moving from unbelief

to belief in light of the gospel in absolutely every area of life.

Okay?

Moving from lies to truth, unbelief to belief in light of the gospel.

Who is God?

What's he like?

What's he done in and through His son Jesus?

What's he now say is true of us?

Our identity, our authority, our privilege.

Because of that, out of that flows, okay then how do we get to live?

Not should or supposed to, cuz it's already been done

at the cross, it's finished.

But how do we get to live in light of that?

And so if discipleship is the process of moving from unbelief to belief,

helping each other do that in every area of life, then guess what we're gonna

have to do every area of life together.

It's not a process of disseminating information.

It, It's not just deep Bible literacy.

We say it's not Bible literacy that we're after, or that Jesus

was after it's gospel fluency.

I don't wanna freak anybody out, any of your listeners.

Maybe they're gonna tune out right after I say this.

Jesus never owned a Bible.

Jesus never discipled Christians.

There weren't any, He didn't.

He had the 12 knuckleheads that he didn't even choose.

Dad chose it says there, at the ascension that the 11 who were still alive, it

said some still did not believe what?

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's how it goes.

That's how

A and we think that only one of them was a knucklehead,

but they all had issues.

Right?

how many of 'em do we hear about after.

Just a few.

And we just assume they're all out crushing it.

Planting huge worship services.

They got the best sound systems, by the way.

All, All that stuff.

Nope, I don't think so.

we know some of them went back to like fishing or farming or I'll

go back and see if I can get my government job, collecting tax.

We, you know, we don't, right.

Well, not Matthew, but you know, so we have such this distorted

somewhere along the line disciples there again, when we lost the gospel

narrative of it's not about getting saved and your afterlife upgrade.

It's about make disciples who make disciples, which is.

How we fill the world with God's glory, by the way, as we become more and more

like Christ, the mystery revealed, Paul says, God's gonna do this through humans.

What?

Yeah, he's gonna sanctify them, put his own spirit in them, and as

they make more disciples of Jesus, who is the glory of God, the whole

world will be filled with his glory.

What?

That's what's really going on When we lost that narrative for we gotta get people

saved and then Christianity's about sin management and behavioral modification.

Then quote, discipleship came about, teach them the Bible and get 'em to do it.

And yeah, but D, didn't Jesus say, make disciples, immersing them in

their identity, in the name of the Father, in the name of the Son and

the Holy Spirit, and and teach them to obey all that I've commanded.

Didn't he say that?

Didn't he say that?

But how many things did Jesus command and what if you summarized it?

What He summarized it.

He goes, all right, love God with your whole heart.

Love everybody else as much as you love yourself.

There's the summary, so and we can get to the list, but really if you do

the hermeneutical work on that, teach them to obey all that I've commanded.

Really what he's saying is show them how to live in the ways of what is

actually already true of God and now true of them because of me.

That's really what it's saying.

Teach them to obey all that I've commanded.

That's a real tweak on that hermeneutic.

It really is.

Okay.

It's kind of accurate, but what that's saying is show 'em how to walk in my ways.

Now you add this, get ready for this man.

You add that to what Jesus said in John eight.

If you'll be my disciples, if you'll walk in my ways, then you'll come to know the

truth and that truth will set you free.

Now, isn't that crazy?

Notice the order there.

If you'll be my disciples, if you'll walk in my ways, and this is what

Jesus commands us to go do, right?

Then you'll come to know the truth and that truth will set you free.

But what have we done and what was I guilty of for so much of life?

Even as a pastor, we flip that narrative 180 and we go, if you'll

believe what we say is true, you'll say the magic prayer that can't find

the scripture, you'll get set free.

You won't feel free, but you'll get set free.

You know it's in your afterlife.

That's when you catch that check and then we'll disciple you.

Jesus says, if you'll be my disciple, then you'll come to know the truth

and that truth will set you free.

And we make that like a meta term.

so that's when, that's how you get your ticket to heaven punched.

But if you dare, again, just back up a few verses, couple chapters.

That's not what he's saying.

He's saying, if you'll walk in my ways, in any way, like when it comes

to like generosity in who's really your provision and who do you trust

for your needs and you know your kids and all that, if you'll walk in my

ways, you'll come to know the truth.

About God, and that he owns it all and he loves you and he cares for you.

And this family is gonna, and that truth will set you free.

And so now you'll get to live free.

And even if you lose your job or you look at your bank account and go,

that's rough with not much in there, but we need to help these people.

God will take care of us.

you'll be set free.

That's what's going on here.

Discipleship is that process of helping each other move from unbelief

to belief in every area of life.

And if you take Jesus as word in John eight, and also what did he model?

The same thing.

He didn't say, you gotta be a Christian first, and now I can disciple you.

He's come and follow me, right?

Let's walk in my ways.

if you take him at face value, then that means people are actually discipled to

faith, to truth that sets them free.

And then on to maturity.

So there's not this flip flopped d made up narrative of you gotta

adhere to a bunch of truths.

First say a prayer, and then that sets you free.

And then we'll disciple you in your sin management behavior modification program.

We're gonna beat it in.

We're gonna beat it into you.

We

can't find it.

we'll, and now be, we'll be very nice about it though.

We'll be very nice.

But the assumption will be parallel, just like your parents in school are,

is that God loves you more when you do this you a little less when you don't.

And if you really want him to love you, tithe and sign up for a bunch of programs.

Okay?

Cause we need people to stack chairs and hand out these flyers.

Volunteers show up, work the nursery, you do the

parking lot, things like that.

super happy now.

God's super happy with you.

I heard really what I heard as you were walking through that was

not only are we moving from unbelief to belief, which you talked about the

process, and I'm an industrial engineer.

I love talking about process.

I, I believe that this journey we're on is just that it is a journey where

you're not going to get to a destination.

It isn't a check the box destination.

So we're moving from unbelief to belief, which is really moving into the

truth of what our identity really is.

so Cesar, one of the things we really, we try to dig into this term of redefining

success because everything in our culture tries to define success for us.

And I believe even.

those of us that are in church world, we followers of Christ, which most

of our listeners are, there may be some that aren't, which we welcome

them and love that they're here.

But most people, when you start talking about some things, about everyday living,

about walking this out, about going through the process, I think that there's

some people that may struggle with, how do I go from, yeah, I know that I need

to do more than what I'm doing Sunday.

Or some people may have decided they don't even like going on Sunday,

More and more, right?

but they still feel some, yeah, we see a lot of numbers like that.

If we look at the act, if we read Believe Barna and

Oh, it's way past the midpoint.

unfortunately,

of people that aren't going to church, but yet they have

some spiritual aspect and somehow that's gonna have to be addressed.

Yeah.

So I would love for us in the time we've got here the last few minutes and all,

as we head towards trying to do a landing and I know you've got resources, we're

gonna ask for some of those at the end.

I'm gonna let you tell people where to find all the resources.

Cuz I

so much stuff, folks.

Yeah.

but I'd love for you with some time we've got here to speak to the person

that's just going, how can I just break away from my rut or where I'm

at or just get a little bit deeper?

What are some things you can tell people that are wanting to go into

that role of an everyday disciple or move down that process closer to

belief from where they are in unbelief.

I think that the slippery slope of this is, and you just

queued it up with the slippery slope.

Sorry to say Tim, but is what must I do?

And that unfortunately is where we all start because of that doto be distortion.

It really is.

The other way.

we have to learn to believe who we be, who we are, our identity and out

of our true identity, which we've already talked a little bit about,

is the most natural, fulfilling way to live out of that identity.

We live into the rhythms of everyday life and we teach deeply on, there's

six rhythms of life that God gave the whole world and everybody from

the Garden of Eden up until you and I to people in Ukraine, or we're

all living in the same six rhythms.

but it's not the doing, it's the how are who are we being, And that's where

that becoming, deeper in our belief.

About who God has created us to be.

See we, we talk about it as Christians quite often, that your

identity now is in Christ if you trust him and you're a Christian.

it's true, but our identity is also in the Father and in the Spirit.

And it's right back to where it says, right Matthew 28, go and make disciples.

How therefore baptizing them that we're baptized means

to immerse, to soak them in.

They're in the name of the Father.

In the name of the Son.

In the name of the Spirit.

Wow.

All a huge identity statement.

So what's discipleship about then?

we've already talked about it's this idea of moving from unbelief to

belief, the truth in every area of life, connected to what our identity.

It really is true.

Why?

Because our identity flows from who God is.

He's filling the role with His glory.

That's who he is.

How's he doing it through us?

What's the enemy?

Want to tear down God's glory, God's image.

That's why all the attack on identity and out of all this is where we get

gender dysphoria and homosexuality and all the things that we're experiencing

right now, all flow from a not believing the truth of our identity.

We all were believers and not yet believers, we're all created in

the identity of a Trinitarian God.

And so when people say, what's the first stuff we gotta do?

Okay, first off, do you believe God's your father?

And cuz if you bear his name, if you're bear Kalinowski name

in our family, guess what?

You know you're family.

You know it's part of that.

But we treat everybody like family, cuz that's how we see God doing it and we

believe that's what he calls us to do.

But.

If that's true.

If dad's we have the same dad, then Tim, you and I are really family.

What's that mean?

If we were a healthy family, I know a lot of people don't have healthy

families, but we always say, what do you think you'd do differently if God

was your daddy, Jesus was your brother.

That's what he calls us in Hebrews.

And you had the power that raised Christ from the dead,

the Holy Spirit dwelling in you.

So no lack of power, motivation, strength or any of that for this life.

What do you think life would look like if you believed we were really family?

And so are your neighbors by the way, I think we'd hang out and eat a lot

and we'd have fun together and we would share the tough stuff, but not with fear,

because the do to B thing would be done cause we're living out of our identity.

And that doesn't change based on what you do.

Because of what Christ has already done, And so I think we would live

more like a family and share our stuff and care for one another and work

together and play and fight and forgive.

And you're like, oh, you mean like in the book of Acts?

yeah.

and then, okay.

But we're also made in the image of the son who is a servant.

He came and he says, as I was sent, so I send you, he came as a servant,

not to be served, he said, but as one who serves, then if you live as

a servant now, you're not wondering, what am I getting outta the deal?

You look at everything and go, how might I serve here?

Why?

Because it'll show people what God's his glory.

So I, this, we do whole teachings on this.

Then we could do three episodes on identity if you'd like, but it all starts

with believing, really getting soaked in, saturated, baptized in the truth of

who God is and who he's created us to be.

And now in Christ that's been restored and we're What's faith?

What's salvation?

it's believing that's true and living out of it.

So one thing Caesar, I'm curious with all that you're

doing and with the, we'll call it the mission work that you're doing in

the local areas, which is phenomenal.

I'm guessing that you are running across quite a few people that have

very little, if any background in, say, traditional, formal church, may not

even have familiarity with the Bible.

I grew up in the South, the Bible Belt, and people throw scriptures around

because they grew up with scripture.

Yeah.

I think now we're running across, and we're getting to this, I think

Europe's already gotten to this point where there's like a post, post-Christian

where people, you talk about the Bible, they go, what are you talking about?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

How g, give some examples of how you are just living it out every day.

But here's the reason why I think many people struggle with

that and that is an action.

I know I asked about doing earlier.

no, we, out of our identity, we do all kinds of stuff.

That's the doing's not the problem.

It's why, what's our motivation for doing it,

Sure.

And so give some examples that, that you've got of just what happens

when this everyday discipleship begins to take root and occur

it starts out usually at our table.

Okay.

and for

food.

So food's involved.

foods involved, meals are involved.

Time to be.

is key.

it's not a weekly meeting sitting in rows in silence.

It's not a group that comes together just to study a book of the Bible and see

what parts we agree or d disagree with.

Because like most of my friends are not believers, not yet believers.

most of my friends are, they have some background in it, some Catholicism

a little bit when they were a child.

But it never really, that afterlife upgrade gospel never

really hit that hard for them.

And the sin management, behavioral modification wasn't good news.

So they're working on it in their own.

They're, ideas and strength.

And so for us, usually it starts with a meal.

We do lots of parties, we do lots of open tables.

that's a big deal.

and happy hours.

we, we do happy hour here and people love it.

We did happy hours in the driveway during covid and we didn't mean

to collect a bunch of people.

We said, Hey, how about cuz we, we'd already known for doing happy hours.

How about we're gonna be out in our driveway?

Friday at six and we're gonna set up a little table and have a little happy hour.

Why don't anybody who wants to do the same thing in a neighborhood and we'll

wave at each other and then maybe in an hour we'll walk around and talk and

wave at each other from the sidewalks.

they didn't read the memo and we just had about 20 something,

30 people show up initially, six plus feet apart by the end of it.

Nah, not so much.

They were dying for community.

We put out flyers going, Hey, I don't like, we haven't stockpiled

a ton of stuff, but we, whatever we got, we're willing to share.

And if you can't get out, let us know.

We'll, we can get out.

We're, healthy by God's grace and anything we can do for you, here's

our name, here's our phone number, and we just put that all over the

neighborhood, everywhere and hand it out.

people did, and people still talk about that.

You guys were the best and you had still had your parties and you had us

over and it was crazy and we trust you.

and so it's, that's how it starts for us.

I think that the hugest distinction is that we treat people like

family, not like guests.

That's a huge one.

We don't see people as a guest, Hey, come on in.

Can I bring anything?

no, just bring your smile on face.

Can I help with anything?

No, I got it.

Just what can I get you to drink?

Just sit down.

It's okay.

It's all right.

Nope.

People come to our house and it's sure, you can bring that.

And when they get there, we're like, could you run this out and throw it in the can?

I didn't get the garbage out.

It's totally overflown.

I'm so sorry.

drinks are over here.

The glasses are up there.

If you don't find something, just root around.

It's probably in the fridge, just like you would with family right away.

People respond very different to that.

you treat 'em like a guest, they act like a guest.

You treat 'em like family.

They start to act more like family.

What that does is that starts to break down and there's a real

intentionality to how we speak with people and the questions we ask.

I wanna get to know their stories.

I wanna know where they're living in unbelief and lies so I can

help 'em move from that to truth.

And that might be through conversation, or initially it might be like I.

I don't believe in family.

It's broken.

Ours is jacked.

I'm on my third marriage.

My kids have moved out.

They hate me.

But I look at your family and I go, it looks like there's an option,

at least for it to be different.

And eventually they want to know why.

I can't really explain that without explaining our faith

and who we believe Jesus is.

so it's really simple things like that.

Now we teach and train and coach on all this stuff, but

it starts out always the same.

Hey, let's start having a family dinner night as a family.

Then let's start opening up the rings of that relationship a little naturally.

Something we're already doing.

It's already fun.

It's a blast.

It's full of joy.

Let's just open up the rings to people who are leaning into relationship.

Let them experience a little of bit.

People are dying.

Trust me, they're dying for a place at the table.

We've never had a shortage of people who wanna have dinner and hang out with us,

real simply, real practically like that.

I do think that there's some people when we bring up family, my, my

wife is one that because of relationship with father and mother and things like

that, they may struggle with that.

And so I think it's really healthy to show a model of the way a healthy

family functions and operates.

I'm curious, one of the things that I've done as I've studied the gospels is I've

looked at those four gospels and I've, in my mind, I'm trying to think how much

time did Jesus actually spend with the 12

I've done the math.

Have you?

I've tried to, so I'm gonna ask it.

let me mention one other thing, and I'm gonna let you respond to that because

I, I keep hearing, and maybe this is the question and you could expand on this.

I keep hearing you say there's patience, there's time.

It's not like it's a real quick text and that's your relationship with someone.

We spend 35 minutes sitting beside you and we greet at the beginning of the

service and then we're out and we're done.

Don't even go to lunch together.

There, there is time with discipleship and interacting with people, which also

means I don't think that you can really do it well with more than a certain number.

Maybe the number's 12.

I don't know.

but tell me.

Yeah.

what is the math?

he had three years, but they hung out together

So it's a guess, right?

I did the math and I'll just tell you what my math was.

it was about three and a half years.

Okay.

By the time Jesus went back to dad, hung out with dad and

they were pretty much there.

They were together if they were awake.

So let's just give it 18 hours.

It's about 30,000 hours.

Jesus hung out with his disciples.

Now, I did the other side of the math, and I won't remember the

exact number, but pretty close.

I think if, let's just say the people in our church, they

all come every week, okay?

Two hours.

and they never miss, okay?

And they come midweek hour and a half.

And because we're a discipline church, we were rock stars.

one Saturday, a month for two hours, we equip like crazy and everybody makes it.

I added that up and I said, to get to 30,000 hours, how long would it take?

And it was something like 120 something years, I think to equal the same parody.

Now, let me go back to something I said earlier.

Jesus did the 30,000 hours with people complete open life.

You've heard it said, but I say this is what the father's

You wanna know what he's like.

He's like a couple hundred gallons of wine, three days into a party.

That's dad's heart, just so you know, or first miracle.

stuff like that.

but the 11 were still there with him watching at his ascension, and

some still weren't sure about it.

They weren't quite, not believing hand in the holes.

I don't know, resurrected, miracles.

still not sure if that's Jesus track record and his disciples

changed the world, and you and I are still talking about it today.

Then I think we can give ourselves a break here and say,

discipleship is not microwave.

It's not super duper fast.

You're gonna have to invest deeply.

we just say discipleship is very, if you want to get a quick picture of it, it's

very much like reparenting the culture.

How long does it take to raise kids?

20, 30 years.

Our kids are in their thirties now.

We're very much still actively parenting.

It looks very different.

It looks very different.

It's very active though.

it's very active and by, and they want that, Like it's right.

But by the time they moved out twenties or something, that's a 20 year investment.

Man, that's still way short of 30,000 hours because I wasn't

with my kids 18 hours a day.

I was at work and they're at school and sports and yeah.

so the thing I love about that is, is the thing that we miss in

our culture, which is patience and time.

And it is one of the reasons why I love you brought up earlier that

you coach, and I'm about to ask you here for some of the resources

and things that you have available.

I'm a coach, I'm an executive coach, and I've said this before,

sounds a little bit self-serving.

I think some of the closest things to discipleship in our modern day culture

is the relationship that coaches have.

Because I spend a lot of time with people I work with.

Coach, you spend a lot of time, maybe let's don't look at us.

Let's look at maybe a high school athletic coach, spending a lot of time.

So I, I think the thing we're missing.

Is we're being robbed of patience and time, and that is one of the

factors that we've got to have.

We've got to have that heart to spend time and be patient with

it and allow this process to, for people to go from unbelief to belief.

Tell us now, and I'll let you share whichever one that you think is

appropriate or a lot of 'em, or whatever.

I know you've got podcasts, and I've got a link here that's

got all kind of resources.

Tell us about some of the resources that you have and maybe some of the

first ones that people need to go check out when they're listening in

on a conversation like we've just had.

Yeah.

thanks for letting me share this stuff.

We're passionate about this.

This is what my wife and I do all day.

This is our life, with people, and then also coaching and equipping others to

experience greater spiritual freedom.

cuz they're not having to try to like please God cuz he is

already pleased in Christ.

And then relational peace to live open with people, with their kids.

With each other.

With neighbors and live free.

I would say the first thing is please come and check out the podcast.

we've done it six and a half years, like you, hundreds of episodes.

And, every imaginable topic addressed from this perspective.

What would it look like if the gospel spoke into that part of our life?

And we could learn to get fluent about that, but not like weirdos.

You know what I mean?

not chapter and verse in people, but like how does the gospel speak to marriage or

our parenting or, what's going on with, identity out there in the world right now?

Or hundreds and hundreds of things.

And it's called the Everyday Disciple Podcast, you know, for a reason, right?

And, I would love folks to just come and check that out and you skip around.

You don't have to listen to the latest episode if you don't want.

There's hundreds.

Dig around.

Let the titles, and curiosity drive you in that.

But I, and you can find that.

And a ton of resources like training, equipping hundreds of videos.

Just go to everyday disciple.com.

So everyday disciple.com, you'll find the podcast there.

Now it's also everywhere.

Podcasts are just like yours, it's in Spotify, it's Apple,

it's everywhere, right?

But if you wanna like at least initially find it, see what it looks like and

get and download a bunch of free stuff.

like we, we have like how to have an awesome family dinner, how to have

killer date night with your wife.

How to date your kids.

what are these six rhythms of life that we already live in?

What if we started to live out of our identity into those?

Cuz we're already doing it and so is everybody we know.

Sounds like no additional time needed.

Just some intention.

Great tons of teaching on that.

there, there's all kinds of resources and I've got books, of course.

I think you wanna check out some books.

There'll be links for that stuff as well.

We'll include links down there and I do agree that the conversation

we've had here, someone listening in, really needs to go to the everyday design.

Apple podcast.

It should be easy within your player.

You might be watching this on YouTube and can check things out,

but just I would check it out cuz I definitely think there's a good mesh

between what we're talking about here and what you're doing there.

Cesar, we are seek, go create those three words.

I'm gonna let you choose one of those over the other two just for kicks and see

what resonates more with you right now.

Which word do you choose and why?

I've thought about this a little bit.

I saw the name of your show and I knew you were gonna ask this question.

I listen, this is part of being a Caesar.

I can't follow the rules.

It's two, it's go and it's create.

I, I just, I'm creative.

I've been a creator my whole life.

I was a musician and a record producer, songwriter, forever and ever.

and I write and make videos and all.

But I guess if I had only could pick one, I would be the go.

I really would be the go and make, go and be.

it's not, our faith is not a common see.

that was the old covenant.

Come and see, come to the temple.

Do all your business, get back to work.

it.

We've been given now a go and make go and be, go be disciples who make

disciples and help people, find this spiritual freedom that Jesus died

to give us, not an afterlife upgrade gospel, and then try to sin less.

Come on man.

Sin less and tithe once in a while.

So yeah, I think it would be go like, get out there, give your life away.

Part of going is just opening up your life, it really is open up time.

Like you were saying, we don't give time to this.

People don't give time to parenting either.

And that's part of why, we're seeing what we're seeing in family life

and identity issues and all that.

So I think I'd go with go for that reason.

That does not surprise me with your personality and all.

I really love that.

Caesar, thank you for joining us here.

It's been such a great conversation.

I appreciate our buddy Eric Nevins, for introducing us and connecting us.

It really.

Thanks Eric.

It really is a beautiful thing here.

If you've been listening in, I'm gonna ask a big favor, and that is

going back to what we said earlier.

Share this episode with someone who you believe might need to hear that

they need to move for this process from unbelief to belief or move

towards being an everyday disciple.

And I know you know someone, so take a screenshot or

share this episode with them.

Introduce them to the Everyday Disciple podcast.

Just share this.

That is the number one way that people get exposed to podcasts like this is when

someone personally shares this with them.

Thanks for joining us.

We have new episodes every Monday.

Until next time, continue being all that you were created to be.