Welcome to the Continuing Education for Mental Health Professionals podcast. Today we are hosting another CEU Provider Spotlight Conversation. This is where we learn more about CEU providers in our community and their journeys. My name is Natasha Moharter, and I'm a licensed counselor and OCD specialist. I run the Facebook group CE for Mental Health Professionals, and if you're a mental health professional, we'd love to have you join us in that space. Today. I'm so excited to welcome Mary Baca, a professional counselor licensed in New Mexico with over 34 years of experience in the field. Mary has worked across expansive areas of focus and is passionate about mentoring individuals and groups, creating opportunities for growth, learning, and providing CEUs. For the past eight years, Mary has delivered continuing education trainings on impactful topics like doing therapy with first responders and their families, the interplay of shame, abandonment, and control. Intuitive goal setting. And self care for the helping professional, among others. As a professional trainer for over 25 years, Mary has mastered the art of creating dynamic and engaging learning environments. Her trainings are not only informative, but transformative, equipping attendees with practical tools they can apply right away. Mary, thank you so much for being here. It's such a pleasure to have you here today.

Thank you for having me.

Can you share a little bit about your background and what got you interested in becoming a professional trainer and CEU provider?

Well, I started, I have four businesses, but the one that has the longest time, is Odyssey Counseling. I started Odyssey Counseling when I was 26 years old. I can't even believe it, 34 years. I know every time I say that number, like, it just doesn't fit, you know, because it's gone by like that. And so, going back to even, in high school and elementary school, I was the shy kid. Like, I had my insecurities and I was just so shy. I'd be the kid like you'd never really hear anything from. I remember being in high school and we had Speech class and they'd have impromptu speeches and I'd be shaking in my boots, you know, before during and after. And then here I am today, I can deliver a training to a hundred plus people and it's, I'm probably nervous about the first 5 or 10 minutes and then it all is fine. As long as technology works, right?

Absolutely.

But so it actually happened accidentally that I became a professional trainer. I started my practice when I was 26, but while I was building up my clientele, I had to work for supplemental income for other companies. And one of the companies, Vasquez Management Company and United Healthcare actually, had the Postal Service Employee Assistance Program contract at the time. This was many moons ago. But that job really forced me to do group trainings. I had to go to all over because the Postal Service is national. I had to do critical incident stress debriefings and stress management trainings and so that kind of started me putting me in that form of things. I started getting more used to people in college because I went to UNM and so there's tons of people from all over the world. And so I started kind of getting out of my shell, but really the training piece of it was the post office. That was what ignited the flames, so to speak.

It's so interesting when we have kind of these happenstance circumstances that come up and we didn't know that this would be something maybe that I liked or would have pursued, but opportunity arises.

So happenstance, I use that word too, but, I believe like as I've evolved, right? Like my foundation really is that nothing happens by accident. I believe, and I've seen and experienced over and over and over through the years, that if I just find what I'm guided to do, that it falls into place, and that when I try to make something happen, try too hard, because it sounds like a good idea, but I don't feel it in my heart. It's like I run into a brick wall, you know, so I don't think it was accidental, even though it seemed like it was. And I use that word, I think in hindsight, because it's something I'm so passionate about and love, that it wasn't accidental really.

I'm so curious to hear more about that insight that you have. Even in looking at, the work that you do and some of the trainings that you provide, it really seems that you kind of bring that belief or that, power even maybe into your trainings.

Yes, I have one of the trainings or certifications I have, you mentioned the intuitive guidance coach. You don't have to be a life coach to get the certification. In fact, it yields CEUs. It's usually done over seven weeks. I like the seven weeks because it kind of stretches out and gives people the opportunity. Truly, I help people identify if they're empaths, a lot of us helping professionals are empaths, right?

Absolutely.

You know, so many people have never even heard that term, or they're like, they've heard that term, and they don't know what to do with it. I'm thinking of a couple of counselors that I've seen in the past who know they're empaths, but they get burnt out, right? Because if you don't know, you're an empath, and you don't know what to do with that as a mental health professional, you can really burn out. So in the intuitive guidance coach certification, I teach and other classes too. I have one, a really cool one. That's about, the power of words. And I talk a lot about energy, energy psychology is one of my specialties. And so, I talk in various trainings about how important that is, and what does that even mean, because all the clients that come into our offices, they bring their energy with them. And if you can read a person's energy, it tells you a lot about a person. Even with each other, it tells you a lot, if you go to a conference, you can read people's energy a lot, you know, if somebody's really nervous or they're very self confident and energy never lies. I don't know how many years ago I started really consciously incorporating intuition into my sessions. What that kind of looks like is just listening to my gut. Like not always going by, okay, what theoretical approach am I using right now and what, you know, strategy, right? But really listening to my right brain and following those nudges. And what I found is that they oftentimes are right on point, whether I'm doing EMDR and I get kind of nudged by my gut to kind of go in this direction and I follow that it just 99 percent of the time is what the client is needing. And I do all of this the same, you know, with my trainings and my mentorships.

You flow with the energy. When you feel like you're hitting up against a wall or you're trying to work too hard, it's kind of an indicator that maybe that's not the path.

You know, as counselors we're over thinkers. By and large, and I really worked on that a lot in therapy and just in my professional development that, really, if you just kind of surrender, and yeah, I mean, I'm not saying I don't do any thinking, right, but like, I try really not to overthink because that's not really productive. And I think that, that as helping professionals. We have a really hard time letting go of that perceived control. Right? We don't really have control. And we think like if we have all our T's, you know, crossed and our I's dotted, you know, this is going to be the way the training goes. And as opposed to just saying, okay, this is a structure. And you know what, the beauty of this training is going to be the life that it takes on. And I love that. I love that spontaneity. I love being there to gently guide, but also to provide a safe environment for people to bring up what they want to share. And intuition is one, when I've done that training, I can't believe it. I've heard from many counselors that they're not even allowed to mention intuition in their workplace. And that is so sad to me because, like, for one thing, that's just who we are as human beings, you know? So I've had many counselors thank me for, taking these trainings to a professional level and being able to help them integrate who they are, in their core essence, into therapy or trainings or different things.

We don't just interpret the world with our thinking brain, there's so much else, I think about even our fear brain or amygdala, right? Even if logically within OCD, we know, that doesn't logically make sense. Your amygdala is still like, I don't care. I still want us to do that. And if we don't like something bad could happen.

Yeah.

So it's not just our thinking brain or our logic that can play into our work. And I think it's really important to be able to maybe even tap into that, in our trainings.

And then as a holistic practitioner, I incorporate things like what the adrenals are doing. Because the adrenal glands, are in the endocrine system. So if your adrenals are thrown off, you run a risk to your thyroid, your pancreas, different elements of your health, in your system. And so I talk a lot to people about that, which I wouldn't even know about if it was just, due to my counselor side, right? That's one of the other businesses I have is my holistic practice, and so I incorporate some of those things in the trainings that I do.

You are passionate about teaching others and view it as an opportunity for everyone to learn from the experience.

Yeah. And I learn every time from my clients, from my students, from my mentees. What other field can you be in where you grow? But I know that not everybody looks at it like that, but I do and I embrace it. I probably haven't always looked at it like that, you know, but but I do now.

It's so neat to hear you've been on this journey and developed through different experiences.

I think that's one thing that makes me a good mentor or has made me a good mentor is the years of experience, the trials and errors that I've made, you know, and just things I've learned in the 34 years. And I really feel like there's a need to make, make a mark on the counseling field, I see people's supervision in itself is not enough. You know, to me, the difference in mentorship and training is really taking somebody under my wings and really like getting to know them and helping them incorporate, who they are into what they do, because we're taught, in our clinical learnings that you're not supposed to bring yourself really into therapy, you know, be really careful with, over self disclosure. Mentorship is like, being able to get to know somebody better than you would in supervision because it's appropriate in mentorship and there's such a fine line in supervision. But being able to have people take that part of themselves out and then helping them refine like, okay, what part of this can you use in your therapy? What has to be, you know, a voice in your head, but not something you would say out loud. How do you navigate through that? Really providing an environment where it's okay. It's okay to be yourself, you know. What I like about mentorship that I don't like about training is the follow up. You know, if you mentor somebody, you're going to have that follow up. You're going to see that person's development in every way, personal and professional. Personal limitedly, right, because I'm not their therapist. Oftentimes I will recommend they be in therapy if they never have. But really getting to know that person and really helping them learn how they can really combine the professional and personal side, of things. But getting to know them in training, you don't get to know somebody. I mean, you know somebody for, you know, two and a half days at the most, you know, that's the longest training I do and you don't know somebody.

Do you ever do you ever find that people from your trainings become mentees?

Yes. Some people from my trainings have come and worked for me. But still then, right, because of time constraints, we don't have the time. You know, I had a counselor working at Odyssey. She frequently needed supervision from several of us. And so something's missing there, and that's when my wheels started turning. I've done mentoring for, many years, but not on the scale that I'm getting ready to embark on. And I'm excited about it because if somebody like that was in the mentorship program, then she could get her needs met. She'd have the opportunity to spend time with me. And not just me, I'm going to be hiring mentors but to be able to spend time with the mentor and really have somebody listen to her and like, well, where are you getting stuck? You know, where are you getting snagged? She was overthinking, but like, I'd have to be with her all the time to supervise her. Whereas mentorship, you have that kind of contact built into the program. That's the nature of it.

What is one example of everything is a teachable moment in this journey of being a training professional that stands out to you?

I think my staff got tired of that saying for a while. Because I was like, it's a teachable moment, it's a teachable moment, but how do we learn by, except from saturation, right? And I kept feeling like, a lot of times things go over a person's head. Right. And so when I say, well, that's a teachable moment, it really kind of freeze frames what's going on and it calls attention to what's happening. And actual trainings or mentorships that I've done for people will be like, well yeah, you know, that makes sense. And I'm like, yeah, but everything's a teachable moment. So hold a minute, like, think right now where you're at. And like, what has made it hard to not get that before this moment, you know, and really kind of call attention so that that's going to stick in their brain more and longer than if I just bypassed it, you know, my trainings for one thing, no two of them are alike. The structure is to a point, but every time I'm going to do a training, I sit with it, I intuitively look at the training, and I always add to it, or take things away, like always. So, but that's like a teachable moment, I mean just really anytime you want to highlight like something that's an opportunity to learn from the moment and what's going on.

It sounds like you've really been able to tap into success by listening to your intuition by even in your preparation for training.

It's changed my life, like, professionally and personally. I would never be without that. Like, it just makes my job so much easier. And it makes it not seem like work, honestly, because it's through that that I truly feel connected. To my clients, to my mentees, to the people that I train, like truly connected, like they're not just, you know, even if time, cause I, like anybody, you know, have a lot of time constraints, but anytime I interact with somebody, it just feels real, you know, and that's part of the energy piece too, right? Is really connecting to people's energy, which means really seeing them. And I think a lot of times we don't take the time to do that.

That can be vulnerable.

Perfect opportunity for mentorship, right? Perfect opportunity to learn that and to really freeze frame. Some of those teachable moments in training and mentorship where people can really look at that in a safe environment where that vulnerability Can be explored incrementally, right? Like when somebody first begins from the very first time we do a discovery consultation on the mentorship, because that's a first step and it's free, is to really tune in intuitively to the person to identify like, okay, where do they want to go? Oftentimes people don't know where they want to be in 1 year, 2 years and 3 years, you know? So I get to know them even just in that 1 hour and I'm able to clarify some things even for them, which is just a starting point. And then they're going to evolve. It's like blossoming, right? Just watching that flower blossom and being part of that. Especially people new in the field. We get out of school, we hit the ground running, and we're kind of like, okay, I don't know what to do. You know, I don't know which direction to go in. I need clinical supervision hours, and that's as far as they think. This mentorship gives people an additional option where they can, you know, they'll be able to earn CEs. It cuts that expense and just really grow and come into their own as counselors.

I think it's really incredible that you offer the CEs with it as well. Do you ever find that you don't click with somebody? And what do you do with that?

You know what, I look inward first. I use that as a mirror. It depends like how emotional I get about it, right? Like if I'm like, ah, this person aggravates me or I'm like, okay, what is it in you? You know, just really look inward. And that's usually where the answer lies. And that doesn't mean that they don't have their own stuff that's filtering in, but it's my job, it's my role to make sure that I bring the clearest sense of who I am into any relationship that I go into, whether it's with a mentee or a supervisee or a client or a coworker or staff.

And from your experience, what are the most important aspects to consider when creating a great learning environment for mentees, for staff, for trainings?

I think one of the biggest things is to be human. I tell people all the time, I am a work in progress. One of the big things is I can admit that and I can honestly say every day I spend time on trying to learn and grow about myself and then that just gets taken forward into whatever, professional element or relationship that I'm building. Yeah, I've been doing this 34 years. That does not mean I know everything. You know, human beings are ever expansive. And so I tell people like, it's okay. We're going to learn together. You're going to learn from me. And then we're going to also learn from each other. It's all about building relationships of various kinds and really, you know, leading people and also being led at those times.

Creating a safe space within boundaries but allowing it to develop how it needs to. I don't think that we're opposed to hard work, right? But nobody necessarily wants to continue to work harder than they need to.

Well, and sometimes too hard, right? Like, I definitely am a recovering workaholic, honestly. And it's really hard when you enjoy and love what you do, but the intuitive piece and going with the flow, like literally, with the energetic flow of my own, I'm not burnt out, ever. I take the time, like, at five o'clock, I'm like, done. Weekend, I don't work. So I really am good about boundaries that I didn't used to be, it's evolved, I've evolved over time. But, yeah, definitely I'm a recovering workaholic.

And how neat that you could admit that and like you said, continue to grow.

I used to take myself so seriously, Natasha. Like, I'd be like, oh my gosh, and I'd shame myself, you know, and all this stuff, right? And I just kind of laugh like, you're so silly, you've been down this road before, like, what's up with that? You know, and I tell myself those things, pat myself on the shoulder, and I'm like, it's okay. You learned. And that's how I approach people. As long as we're learning and growing, it's not a race. So, you know, let's do this together. And learning to me is just like therapy. It's like five steps forward and two steps backward. That's how learning is.

I think it also models for other people that it's okay to show yourself self compassion to move on from shame and guilt. We want to do a good job or do the best that we can. I've even talked with other professionals that, get into, starting the trainings and it's like, wait, this is a little bit more than I thought. It's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to, like you said, pat yourself on the back.

And you know what, it's okay to say, I can't do this at this time. You know, I almost took on a personal commitment this week and I'm so proud of myself because I was able to say, No, you are at your limit. So I was able to just tell her that and it was fine, she understood, and I felt good that I was able to do that, because a workaholic would not do that. So it's constantly, every day is growth and development, like just truly accepting people where they're at and providing a safe environment, including most of all ourselves, because if I'm not like that with myself, how am I going to sell that? How am I going to pass that forward? It's not going to be believable to people. If they see me being all hard on myself and moody and pissed off they're gonna be like, I don't know She says this but she certainly doesn't wear that. So, you know and again, I'm a work in progress. Do I have bad days? Yes but, you know, I shake it off as quickly as I can, identify what's going on, and then kind of nip it in the bud like that, you know?

I saw an image recently, and it was an image of a yes, and it was in a circle, and it was holding up a sign, and it said, every yes needs to be guarded by at least 10 no's, and I was like, yep! We can't always say yes and no can be challenging at times, especially when we like the things that we do or, in my ADHD brain case, I tend to say, ooh, that's new and shiny. That could be fun. So when I have a lot of energy, I load up my brain. And then when I don't always have that amount of energy. You come down from that, you're like, now I have all kinds of things to do.

I know. And you know, and I'm working on that. I'm a visionary for sure. And so usually I'd have five things on my plate and now I have two things, the mentorship and the IOP restart. And in the IOP, even at some point, like when it's not so new, I'll turn that baby loose too, and then I can put something else on my plate. I did not used to do that. I did not because I was like, oh, shiny new, right? Oh, oh my gosh, that looks so amazing or gosh. And, and it all does, but you know what? I can do it in a few months. I was going to have an open house and I'm like, yeah, no, you're not going to do that. You're going to do that in the spring and look at the bright side. It'll be warm. You can do a fundraiser for first responders because I founded a nonprofit called Beyond the Call and I thought, that'll be a great opportunity to turn it into a fundraiser and also bring people to the facility.

It doesn't have to all be done today.

It can't be.

Exactly. We only have so much resource, including, time, energy, money, whatever, we need to invest in that. We can put things out into the future a little bit not say that because we're not doing it today, it won't get accomplished.

I believe in divine timing. I think that things fall together at the time that they're supposed to, and sometimes the idea is there, but it doesn't mean that that idea has to come to fruition right now.

Like you said, especially if you're a visionary, it can be very exciting to look to the future and see what's to come.

It's exciting. Yeah.

What advice would you give a training professional to create a training that is beneficial, dynamic, and engaging?

Something I've mentioned already is to bring yourself into the training so that it's just not stiff and dry. I've gone to trainings recently, even I went to a dbt training and I left the training because I was like, I cannot even, it was, online. I was just like, Oh my gosh, like I'm not taking anything in. Like, this is just not resonating with me. I don't want to be here. So I allowed myself to leave. I felt like the trainer was very dry, very, monotone. In the trainings that I do, I tried to have people interact with each other and engage with each other. One of the things is I do small trainings. I don't do a hundred person trainings because that's not conducive to creating the kind of environment I'm talking about. I might do 12 people max, but it really encourages people to interact with each other, to ask each other for feedback, to give their feedback. And it's amazing. And then I think once, too, that I'm being personal, like I'm laughing and joking and, you know, that kind of thing, it kind of breaks down that wall that people sometimes have, and they're like, oh, okay, this is this kind of environment. We can be ourselves in here, you know, kind of thing. That's the biggest thing I would say. Be yourself.

And you get other people interacting with each other and then it takes some of the pressure and spotlight off of you as a trainer even.

Facilitate a group in the right way, you really won't be running the group, right? I mean, you're kind of steering it, so that's, really valuable. And then they benefit, like they establish camaraderie with each other. They benefit in so many ways.

So your experience and background demonstrates your expertise in working with first responders and trauma. Your trainings are often focused on these important topics. How do you narrow down your training topics and what trainings to create?

With first responders, I was married to a police officer for 14 years myself, and I've had friends and family in law enforcement. My dad was a military cop. That's not why I started training first responders, it's kind of in hindsight where I'm like, that's a no brainer that she would end up doing these trainings and working with this population. But it really wasn't like an intentional thing. With that particular population, which I've been working with for over 30 years, they let you into the most, intimate parts of their lives, right? I want qualified professionals who can work with these people, because not everybody can, and they always are in need. And they are a population, like veterans, that if they go to you and they're like, yeah, she can't work, they will leave. And the statistics say that they may not reach out for another counselor for 10 years. So it's that critical. Yeah. And so that's one of the programs that I'm going to do mentorship on because I did the extensive two and a half day first responder intervention specialist certification. It's not enough. It's a great training, don't get me wrong, because I have my first responder training team come in and talk rawly about their experiences. It's enough to make an impression. Everybody leaves there so moved, not by what I say, but what these first responders say, which complement each other so well, right? Anytime I go and do a talk on first responder stuff, I always take a first responder with me because I can say whatever and then what they share just kind of seals the deal, you know? How can I not be passionate about wanting to create trainings? For first responders to create more helping professionals who can work with them sufficiently and who can really take them, lead them into a place of healing because they come in kicking and screaming like they are, you know, treatment resistant. They are not your people that are saying me, I'll go to counseling. It's not like that. I kind of tend to like to go into areas that other people are not doing trainings in. That's probably part of being a visionary, where I'm like, well, there's plenty of people doing trainings on that, whatever that is, like depression maybe, right? And I'm like, if I'm going to do a training on depression, it's going to be integrated with something else. Like shame is something I talk a lot about and do trainings on because it is something that everybody struggles with. And so I spend a lot of time training, mentoring, supervising people on that issue because I still do not see it sufficiently covered. And so it's kind of like that, like something just catches my attention and I'm like, oh, that's so needed. Boundaries is another area, right? Like, We think we're great at boundaries, well we know the typical boundaries, right, the really black and white boundaries, but you don't see a lot done on self disclosure, you know, and counter transference. I think I've seen one workshop, and so that's another area that I really want to mentor people and train them and teach them, like, what does that even mean, you know, and when do you know that you're doing self disclosure, and what might that'd be reflecting in the mirror, right? Yeah, choosing topics that kind of other people aren't. It's just, I'm just kind of naturally drawn to do things that nobody else is doing or not too many people are doing.

People walk away from these trainings and they get a lot from the training, but then you can continue that energy with ongoing mentorship and you have the info, now, how do you implement it with support with guidance? And I think that that is so important even like you talk about with self disclosure, if I'm learning, what does that look like? It's going to be helpful to be able to refer back to my mentor.

I'm going to do mentorship that's what's working. So say somebody says, well, I want to come in and I want to do a training on your shame, abandonment and control. I'll be like, okay, great, but we have to do a mentorship. So, let's sit down and look at why are you attracted to that training? And, you know, they could do a short mentorship. It doesn't have to be this big, long thing, but mentorship, meaning, like, let's spend some time together and let's really look at these issues that are catching your eye and let's really establish some measurable goals. And let me help you achieve them. Training is it's just not, I think the longer I am in the field, I'm realizing how inadequate that alone really is.

You're taking, your experience and saying, I'm going to do this a little bit differently and really allow somebody that opportunity to learn from you to learn this at not just the surface level, but, you know, like you said, What is it that draws them to that? What is it that they're looking for with that? And you can provide that support.

Really that's what works when I've mentored people and I get to know who they really are and I'm able to help them take that self of theirs out and put it on the table and be like, okay, let's look through this, you know, and look at who you are as a professional, and how do you want to be. A lot of people, overthink and they're like, yeah, but you know, that's not okay for me to say to a client, right. And I'm like, who told you that? And they're like perfectly appropriate things. You don't get all involved in client successes or perceived failures, but it's fine to tell someone you're proud of them. I tell my clients, I'm really proud of you, I know how hard that was for you to do that and accomplish that. Even when clients or mentees give me a compliment and oh my gosh, you know, it's been life changing to work with them like look at what you've done to get to this point. I'm all about empowerment in everything that I do. I want people to know that they really can do anything and learn anything and become anything that they want to.

And when you model that language, that can become their new narrative of how they speak to themselves as well. I'm proud of you. Great job. Look at all the hard work that you put into this. Look at your accomplishments.

Yeah. And it takes the heat off of me, right? Because I don't want all that power. I want the person to walk away feeling powerful, even if it's for the day, right? Because tomorrow their issues may revisit them and they may not feel so powerful tomorrow, but for today in this moment, I want them to feel powerful. They can take charge of their life and of their career and be whatever they want to be. Who do they want to be. And I'll help you become that.

And you have a passion for supporting providers to further their professional development in many ways. Your most recent project is this mentorship program for counselors and social workers, which covers the lifespan for any professional. Can you tell us more about how that came to be?

Well, I think that's been a slow burn in my mind. I've mentored people for many years, so it's definitely rewarding, and so beneficial. But I think by seeing aspects of our profession that I'm not really pleased about. And what I mean by that is I have had interviews set up and people cancelling, literally not showing up, people cancelling 10 minutes before they're going to sign a contract. And I'm like, what is going on? I think a lot of people are burnt out, and going in 20 million directions. They're not even taking note of what's happening in this moment. And then just supervising people, it's not enough time. One hour a week, it's not enough. But I can't give more as a supervisor either. So I think that awareness, conscious awareness has been happening, I would say this past year. I was asking again, going to that intuitive guidance, I was just kind of asking the question like, okay, what do I do about this? Because I'm a doer. If there's a problem, if I am not comfortable with something, I'm going to do something about it, whatever I can, right? That's when the idea came up I was like, well, what does mentorship accomplish? And I thought, well, you know, I meet people where they're at and then we figure out where they want to go and we do that, right? So I looked at different wording, but I came up with the word "be" which means what exists and then "come" is what you're moving toward. And then I was like, okay, what about a symbol for the logo? And I think butterfly. What is better than transformation, right? So I looked and looked and looked at different images of butterflies and thought, I want to capture the concept that you go through different stages, right? In your professional and personal growth. I just couldn't do that with a butterfly and then I ran across the one image I decided to use, which is a hand releasing a butterfly. And I thought that really is what mentorship does, is you release the most beautiful version of who that person becomes.

It's so beautiful. The process that you go through, that you can make it very personal. You can reflect what you're trying to accomplish and what the goal is with symbols, words.

Another thing I have mentored people on is, really tuning into who are they? What do they want? What's going to be representative? Because a lot of times people choose a logo and a name but it can be even better and more enriched by really tapping into that inner part of yourself. And that's something I have and can teach people.

I first learned about vulnerability and was working with clients to teach them about vulnerability, the hand and the butterfly is actually the analogy that I would use. And I would say vulnerability is kind of like the butterfly that's on your hand and you can't hold it too tight. You kind of have to just let it be. You can share that with other people, you can guard it, you can kind of cup your hand, but you can't crush it. You have to be careful because they might try to come in and crush it as well.

Can I use that analogy?

Absolutely. Absolutely. I would be honored.

I love that. I love that because that is what mentorship is, right? It's like not hovering or trying to control somebody, allowing them to develop and become who they are, but being there, and, being protective, like in terms of guiding them. For the duration that they're doing the mentorship and beyond. I have people who keep in touch with me.

You really do, build the relationships with people and it sounds like that's why they come back to you even years later. You are a true entrepreneur. You've run many successful businesses over the years. Some of our community members hesitate to start providing trainings because they're not sure where to start. How did you get started and what helped you decide to officially open your professional training business Shifting Perspectives Training Institute in 2017?

I got started in training with the Postal Service, right? And then it's just kind of evolved from there. I remember doing, a training on group therapy in front of like a hundred people. There were psychiatrists in the audience and I was like, oh my god, I was so fearful. But just taking that leap. I am a leap taker, a risk taker, as long as it's not too far out there. And if it doesn't turn out the way I wanted to, it's not that big of a loss. Then I'm definitely a risk taker. I am an entrepreneur, but I am a visionary. And the difference is I allow my vision to open and spread and not let fear restrict me. That's such an important thing, when people are hesitant to do trainings or to be a therapist because some people will say, well, that looks really intimidating. It's like, it's fine if you're deciding that because that's what you really think and want, but if fear is at the root of anything, you know, it's, what's holding you back, then that's something, you know, that I do as a mentor is really help people look at that, like, what's holding you back, you know.

And you mentioned you have to be able to take some risks at times, you have to be able to put yourself out there. It might still be scary the first 5 to 10 minutes of every training. And yet then you kind of get into your groove and it's so different from where you started, being that shy person.

I was excruciatingly shy. It's crazy. I look back and I'm like, wow, who was that? And there's all kinds of reasons for that, right? But like, following this track has just changed my life. You know, it's changed how I see my clients, how I work with my clients. I look at therapy as teaching. It's a different kind of teaching. I think teaching is like in everything, and 99 percent of the things we do that we don't know how to do, that we want to do better, or, take on, there's learning involved, and people, I think a lot of times don't have the self confidence to learn, so a mentorship is a great opportunity to have somebody walk with you through that process. You know, I have your back. I can see things up ahead because I've been doing this so long. I can be like, yeah, be careful with that. Cause that could happen. My dad taught me there's always an answer to everything. There's always a way around things. So if there's a challenge, I'm great about helping a person figure out a way around. Whereas a lot of people will stop at the challenge and they'll be like, everything's telling me not to do it. I can't do it. It's just not happening. I'm like, okay, well, maybe, but maybe, you know, there's just another way that it's got to be done for you. Let's look at your options.

Even the trainings that you do and the topics that you decide to pursue are not necessarily being done by other people. It's kind of new territory in a lot of ways. So even if there aren't trainings on a topic that somebody is interested in, you can go out and make them right.

Oh yeah. So I'm glad you said that because the mentorship really is customizable. An initial discovery consultation is to really then customize and put together what that person is looking for. What are the goals they want to accomplish? Who are they? So no mentorship will be the same for any two people. Just like my trainings are not the same every training. But yeah, really making that switch from instead of doing trainings. They're all going to be mentorships. And again, that can be different degrees. That does mean somebody has to sign on for three months. But let us get to know each other. Let me get to know you. Let me see how I can really help you become what you want to be.

Tell us what the name of your mentorship program is. When it starts and what is included, how would somebody go about contacting you starting that process with you? What would that entail?

Probably the most effective way to contact me is through text at 505 315 7397, or email, but text is probably the best way. I am starting to do discovery consultations now. anticipating starting in January. And I'm only going to take a certain amount of people because I'm offering free mentorship to the people that work at Odyssey. I want my team to be the most fulfilled and the best, I have amazing people and I want to see them grow. So I will just be taking probably 10 mentees on top of my staff. I can mentor people nationally. I am accredited with the NBCC, I can award CEs anywhere in the country. That's something I'm excited about. Just because that means me spreading my wings, farther and wider. And so that's amazing.

So you can work with, anybody throughout the United States.

And you know, some of those 10 spots, one person might want, a one month mentorship. So as soon as that person fulfills their goals, then, it'll be kind of changing over, I will be also hiring other mentors. Like I love collaborating with other people. I love putting things together with other people and being like, okay, this is your expertise. This is mine. Let's create something amazing for counselors, social workers, life coaches, psychiatric technicians. These mentorships will be open to anybody, not just counselors and social workers. I mean, there's plenty of people that provide service to people that need this.

You are taking those visions and the ideas that you have and putting them into play, and then getting other people involved. And when we get other people involved, that can just make such a bigger impact, right?

I mean, that's a win win, like, honestly, you know, our clients are going to benefit. Our mentees are going to benefit. Each of us is going to benefit. I mean, my gosh.

We don't have to be the experts in everything. We can choose the things that we're interested in.

Cause we're not. Like, I'm not drawn to go and take, extensive training and learning on OCD, not for any particular reason, just like you may not be drawn to do that with first responders, but the beauty is there's still that learning opportunity to put things together, collaboratively, and produce something that enriches the benefit for people.

And that relationship piece is so natural in our humanity. Connecting with good people, connecting with people that, can build us up and that we can build up as well. It really can be a beneficial relationship to have.

I have said no through the years. It's got to feel right. You know, when I offer that it's because I really feel that. Not because it's like the thing to do. You spend a lot of time when you collaborate with somebody, you have to resonate with each other. Through the years I've just been like, yeah, no, that's probably not a good idea. Gracefully I say, I don't think we're a good match. And that's okay. That doesn't mean it's bad or anything. Like that's just how it is.

You need to be able to trust your intuition for that as well. You very much come across very genuine. I really like that. The different contributions that you've made in the group. I was so grateful that you've been part of different conversations and supporting other people or answering questions or welcoming people and things like that. Like you said, the community part is really what that Facebook group is even all about.

It is so important because I've seen and I have experienced competition and it's something I stay away from because I feel like you guys, none of us are going to run out of clients. And if I ran out of clients, that would be a good thing. Like if nobody needed counseling anymore, hallelujah, I'd give up my job, you know, in a second. It's not going to happen, you know? And so, but I've had people target me even nothing's become of it, you know, and I don't ever worry about it. It's just very time consuming when that happens. But, I feel like we have to support each other. Like, come on, support each other. Be each other's cheerleader. Be happy when somebody accomplishes something, you know? Even if it's something you would like to accomplish, great, then use that as motivation.

And it's proof that it's working!

I know, yes! Yes. And so I really, when I welcome people on your page, if my heart isn't feeling it, I don't do it. So when I welcome those people, it's truly like welcome. How awesome that you're here.

How do you deal with that competition or when you are targeted? I've definitely heard from other people in our community as well is, you know, there's competition out there and how do I stand out from the crowd and I think it really is about collaboration and finding how can we support one another because we can all win here. But how do you kind of deal with that when it becomes hard?

There is, jealousy and envy. Those are real human emotions. And I'm talking specifically like in the first responder world because I'm one of a few in New Mexico that do the work and first responders or have companies, right. And to me. I'm like, well, man, let's all support each other. But that has not happened across the board, and that's fine. I used to be a really huge people pleaser many, many, many years ago. And now I'm just not that right. Like, I don't have to earn anybody's. Anything. And so I just don't breathe fire into it. I'm not gonna lie. Like at first, I was so upset. But I don't let that last long either because that's not going to make me a happy person. That's kind of how I deal with it is deal with it in the way that I have to but don't give any more energy or time to it than that because that's what people feed off on, you know, unfortunately, and, there is that ugliness in human beings and it exists, but what do you do, you know, I can't be fearful, like, and going back to that whole thing about fear. You know, they'll come to me to talk about intuition because they know I have that reputation for kind of being outside of the box, and so those are the people I want to keep rooting for and supporting and teaching and mentoring. And if somebody doesn't want to learn about intuition, then look at all my other trainings that you can get mentored on.

The people that, do want your information can find you. And if one person prevents you from continuing to put things out there, then all those other people get impacted. And fear is a thing, it's natural, we want to protect ourselves. We want to survive. Slowing down, pausing, kind of dealing with it, doing what you need to, and then not spending extra time or resource on it than is necessary.

It's very important to stand in your power as a person, you know, and don't be swayed by fear and intimidation. That's like being bullied and I'm not doing it.

We don't have to breathe fire into it. It can hurt. It can sting. It does not have to be our favorite thing. Statistically not everybody's going to like us.

Nobody's forcing you to look at my flyer. Nobody's forcing you to come to a training.

I don't like everybody. And that's okay too. You don't have to like me, you don't have to like the trainings, you don't have to care about OCD. Like it's cool. What is important to you? Go find that.

Well, because if somebody bothers you that much, that's your problem. And really knowing where to draw those boundaries for yourself as a professional because especially as you put yourself out on a national forum. People are mean and so, just really standing in your power and being like, that's a you problem. If somebody comes to me and they're like, Hey, I'm just really curious about these things you're training on. Are they evidence based? I don't have a problem having a conversation with somebody, you know, but just not being bullied and I had somebody years ago when I was going to go out on the national forum for first responder stuff. She said, Be careful, she said, because people are really awful but I'll never forget that warning, right? Because she knew she'd experienced something that I hadn't, like I hadn't done trainings in another state or anything like that. And so, yeah, I remembered even when this situation came up with me, I could hear her words saying. Be careful, just be mindful, you know, and so, the more you put yourself out there, the great news is 98 percent of people will be so happy you're there. And those 2 percent will be jealous, will think envy, right, like, oh, who does she think she is doing that? Well, you're somebody who's worked who knows how hard, to get to where you're at. We all work hard to get to where we're at, geez, nobody hands us anything. And so I think that's almost like another class I could do, definitely will make part of my mentorship is like, how do you step into your power and really hold that spot.

And not be bullied. It takes so much courage to put your stuff out there. People are going to have feelings and that doesn't have to be an us thing. And it doesn't have to mean that we don't put our stuff out there. It doesn't have to hold us back. If it's a place of fear, like you're talking about, then that's kind of where I'm like, if it's fear, that's dictating this decision. Nope. I know we have to run towards that then.

Right. Things are scary. I mean, if I just succumb to all the fearful moments I've had in the 61 years I've been on this earth I would be nowhere. When I was 26 starting my practice, nobody in my family had even gone to college. I didn't know how to do a practice, I just, found an office that was cheap and good size. I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm going to do this. My parents didn't have a lot of money. They could not have helped me start. They didn't help me start the business. They helped move me. That is all they could contribute. They didn't have money. So I'm proud to say that like 34 years later, I'm still going strong and just getting stronger and stronger. And I did it myself with help along the way by, you know, I call them earth angels, you know, people that have just really wanted to see me succeed. That's kind of what offsets the other kind of people.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And like you said, when you follow your intuition, when you go with the flow it can actually be very energizing. And as with anything we need balance, right? I do the trainings, but I also. Turn off my phone or my email on the weekends, right? Or whatever that looks like.

We have to.

I heard a saying and I love it. Do not confuse my free time with my availability. If you see me post something that is in my own time and I will get back to you when I can, right? Yes.

So important to know those boundaries.

Absolutely. Before we get ready to wrap up, I'm gonna ask if there's any other wisdom that you'd like to share with the group members, who are wanting to embark on this journey of becoming a trainer or adding training to their income streams, pursuing facing their fears and getting their stuff out there.

One of the things I would say is don't let money be your incentive. Not because you can't make money doing trainings, but because if that is going to be your measuring stick, then that's just not likely to work, right? Really set your sights on what you want to train about. What are you passionate about? Don't just pick like, you know, random. This guy approached me a couple of years ago and he was adamant about wanting me to train on the spiritual aspect of ethics. And I just was not called to do it. So I'm like, no, I don't want to do it, you know? But I thought about it cause I thought, well, I don't know, am I missing an opportunity that maybe I should take? And so I sat with it for a bit, but it just really did not hit my heart. Right. So I would say really listen to your body. We don't talk enough about the body and body sensations and the physical aspect I always tell counselors if you're not including the body in your treatment plan, you're not doing a sufficient job. If you're doing breath work if you're teaching meditation, whatever you're doing but if you're not including that in what you do, then you're missing out. Especially trauma. Right. But anything. And so, yeah, just don't let money be your main motivator, you know, it can be on your list, but what you're passionate about and why you want to train on that particular thing should be what motivates you, honestly. And then it's a win win because, you're just going to blossom from there.

And like you said, it sounds like success has often followed you when you've pursued the things that you're interested in and kind of let it flow.

Yeah, for sure. Don't be afraid to step outside the box. Like you don't have to do things that everybody else is doing. There's somebody out there that is looking for what you have to offer. That's the truth. What I love about training and mentorship, it's very much like a choreography and just really honoring that it's a process and looking forward to the process. You have to value people. If you're just training because you just want to deliver a freaking training, go do something else. Like you have to value people and helping people learn and grow. If you don't value that, you probably shouldn't be a trainer until you can get there.

Yeah. And even like you said letting it develop because you create that structure, but then, letting it flow in those ways that are important and meaningful to that specific group, those specific individuals who showed up. The other thing that you said there too is diversity and representation matters. So there are people out there that are looking to hear from somebody that looks like you, that sounds like you, that has a similar experience to you, and it's going to resonate. And again, not letting fear hold us back from that. I think there is something to be said about, doing certain types of market research and figuring out what the needs are in terms of trainings that are needed. And it sounds like, you do that by looking around yourself and seeing and picking up on what are some deficiencies and what are the problems that can be solved here? And how can I provide information, content, mentorship to be able to meet that need in a very meaningful way, not just to provide a training, not just to make some money off of it. That's all great. Those are great things. But what is kind of the, what's the deeper meaning? What's the reason behind this? Why would you be doing this?

Well, I think even, you know, people don't come from a place of living your life purpose. It's like people do this work because they got a master's degree and they have a license. That's the wrong reason. And it's like, that's a big sign of burnout, you got to feel the passion of it. Like why, what got you started to want to help people anyways? To me, training and mentorship is just an extension in a lot of ways of helping people, because you're getting to know who they are and what's holding them back.

And training is kind of neat because it's a different way of teaching and helping people. And so sometimes, I know in my work with clients, it's nice to have the client work, but then it's also nice to have consultations or other trainings and being able to kind of share that information or have different types of interaction with different types of people. Mix things up a little bit, and maybe even prevent some of that burnout in the process.

I love doing trainings and mentoring people.

And I think about the impact that you can have. If you mentor and you train somebody, how many clients do they see per week or per year.

Like that ripple effect. Whenever I decide to retire I want to leave behind like people that grew from some interaction or some training and mentorship that they did with me. Like, what's more rewarding than that? Truly. Just leaving my footprint on things I think is really fulfilling. It's soul filling. That's a frequent word of mine is it's soul filling. It's not soul filling. I don't really do it. It's just so amazing to see people grow and be like, wow, I am so proud of you. Like, oh my God, you are just on fire. Like you go girl, you know.

That encouragement, we rally for one another. Definitely. That's so cool. Mary, it's been such an honor to be able to have this conversation with you today. I so appreciate your time. Where can people find you?

So the websites are, odyssey, O D Y S S E Y hyphen. C. O. U. N. S. E. L. I. N. G. dot com. And shifting perspectives, which is where the mentorship program is running through is shifting-perspectives.com, plural. If you look at my website, either Odyssey Counseling or Shifting, you'll see a little bit more written on the Become Mentorship Program. But yeah, what a way to kick off 2025 for some people.

And you are doing the initial calls currently, with the intention to start the mentorship in January 2025. So in just a little bit, and like you said, even though there's maybe 10 spots now, there are going to be people that are going to be graduating through that program. And so you're going to have kind of ongoing, potential to work with you as well, which is really, really neat.

Yeah, so there will be more than just me and I look forward to that too. That's going to be so amazing.

So cool. Again, that importance of the community.

When you get people together who are willing to take risks, right. And who just are passionate. It's like you could just feel like the energy elevate, you know.

Absolutely.

I'm looking forward to that.

You're doing some incredible stuff. We're going to link your websites below in the descriptions. If anybody is interested it's a really great opportunity. Thank you again so much for your willingness to be here today.

It was so good to talk to you and I look forward to talking to you again sometime in the future.

Such an honor, Mary. Take care.