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[00:00:17] Dan: All right. Welcome back to micheli podcast. . Today we have Bill Lamers on the show. Bill is founder and CEO of Wildfire leadership. And the author of Flip The Script, set Your Mind Free. With over 20 years of experience, dual master's degrees and a background in engineering, bill helps leaders simplify complexity and lead with purpose.

[00:00:37] Dan: He's also the co-creator of the Flip the Script app and the Invest Marriage Curriculum. Bill, welcome to the show. Thank you Dan and Amanda. It's an honor to be a part. It's good to see you. In addition to all that we call Bill a friend and a mentor in our lives, and just man, just, we're so honored to have you, not because of what you've done, but just who you are, bill.

[00:01:02] Dan: And so just, man we're so honored to have you. You've done so much and you've impacted in so many different ways. Take us back though, let's start from being a business leader and then transitioning into this role of author and leadership coach. Can you tell us a little bit about that journey?

[00:01:20] Dan: Yeah. So my background was like you said, engineering.

[00:01:24] Dan: Was primarily in some pretty fast pace environments in some fortune 500 companies. That was really focused on performance metrics results, performance and metrics. And so those were my first few years being in especially the automotive market as well. And so that's how I thought leadership was supposed to look like, was primarily, all about the results and performance.

[00:01:55] Dan: And I had the opportunity a few years after to I was asked to lead a tier one automotive supplier. It was a Honda business and it was that business there specifically made the Honda Pilot vehicles. And and so the first few months things really started going well, and then seven or eight months in really was seeing a lot of success and results and performance.

[00:02:24] Dan: And we were breaking some records and I thought everything was going great. Was getting some accolades for some of the records that were being set. And then soon thereafter I get a knock on the door from corporate hr. Her name was Kim. And Kim said you have some time to talk.

[00:02:42] Dan: And I said yes. And she goes I want you to know that I know you believe that everything is going great and things are looking very good from a performance standpoint, but I want to I wanna share that three of your top five leaders are actually considering. Leaving. And I said, what do you mean?

[00:03:05] Dan: And she said they're looking at going elsewhere. And I said that doesn't make sense. We're doing pretty well. I'm just kinda surprised they would be leaving. And I said, can I ask, what's some of the reasoning behind that? And she said many of your leaders they feel like you're more focused on performance and metrics than you are and getting to know who they are and building relationship with them and said, they said they feel like you care more for the metric than you do for them.

[00:03:35] Dan: And so I tried putting her on a spot, I'm like, okay can you kinda, I validate that and confirm that with some specifics because I was thinking maybe I could, maybe put her on a spot and she. It goes down to her folder, pulls out a piece of paper, and it had 15 different examples specifically of me leading in a manner that was so focused on performance over the person.

[00:04:02] Dan: Wow. And I was looking at this and I'm like, wow. It just brought awareness because those were true what was on paper. And it just really hit me and it really broke me to be honest with you, because here I thought that I was doing a favor to the leaders by having, higher productivity and efficiency.

[00:04:21] Dan: But what I didn't realize is that I was put for performance before the person. And so that is when I started really diving into really how to see that change in my own leadership. And I'll be honest with you, I remember during that time my father was at school. Principal administrator.

[00:04:44] Dan: And I remember just watching him lead and I remember some of his teachers, many of them saw him as almost like a spiritual father. And there was a relationship he had with the staff where they knew each other's events and their birthdays and their children and just you could just, you could see the chemistry that they had as a team, but his focus was relational.

[00:05:08] Dan: And, but I remember when I was watching him lead during that season, it was when I was on the automotive market I kept telling myself that I don't think that type of leadership that my dad is leading would work and my type of environment while I was totally wrong. And so one of the books that I read during that season was called A Servant by James Hunter.

[00:05:34] Dan: And it was all focused on servant leadership, of course. And I remember one example that was in the book was related to what servants means in Greek is Diakonos, which stands for table wager. And he was sharing just how a table waiter is one that is so concerned about meeting the needs of the people, right?

[00:06:00] Dan: That they're serving. And many times it's proactive, right? It's where they're trying to be proactive in understanding what can I do to really set the table well for the people that I'm serving? What does that require? That requires asking a lot of questions on, what would you like?

[00:06:15] Dan: What do you need? And so I started learning what that kinda looks like from a servant's heart. And then I started asking myself, how can I apply that to the workplace? So I asked the Lord, I'm like, Lord can you gimme, some opportunities to learn this in the workplace where you can show me maybe a leader that's really doing it well?

[00:06:39] Dan: That following week I was leading some town hall meetings, which the town hall meetings would have hundreds of employees across three different shifts that I would be, sharing to. And I remember there was this one person, this one lady that was sitting in the first the first row all by herself.

[00:07:02] Dan: And in the town hall meetings, usually there'd be nobody sitting in the first two rows. They're always, usually sitting in the bag, right? And and so I started sharing and I just noticed this lady, she's about upper fifties at the time. But I just recalled her posture. And the way she was focused and locked in and she was taking notes and I'm like, okay, this is like really odd.

[00:07:28] Dan: This lady must, something must be wrong, and but she kept on taking notes and was just really respectful and just nodding and, in, in agreement with what I was sharing. And so after the town hall meeting, I was walking out of the conference room and I felt like the Lord really wanted me to to get to, to meet her.

[00:07:48] Dan: And so she was an operator on the floor and I would also do some cleaning across the floor through some of her tasks. And so I went up to her and I said, ma'am, I said I just wanted just ask you if there's any, first of all, what's your name? And she goes, my name's Lucy. And I said nice to meet you, Lucy.

[00:08:10] Dan: And I said, I just wanted to ask you if there's anything I could do to to serve you, to make what you do in your job, make it better. And so she shared just some things that could really help her out to make her job more efficient and effective and some safety things that would help her out.

[00:08:27] Dan: But what really hit me was what happened next? She she said, I know you came to serve serve me, but I feel led to serve you. And I said I said, oh, yeah. She goes, I've been praying for you ever since you came to the company. And the Lord's called me to come alongside Christian business leaders and pray for them.

[00:08:47] Dan: And she said, can I pray for you? Can I share with you what the Lord is laying my heart to pray for you? And she, I said, of course. And she shared, and it was as if she had been in my journey with me for the last year. And what the Lord did that day, number one. Let me share, first of all, Lucy, fast forwarding to the rest of my ever since that day, which was years ago, to today, is one of the greatest prayer warriors in my life and my wife's life, my family's life.

[00:09:19] Dan: And I'm just so grateful. But what the Lord showed me that day was the power of one and how he uses the one in many times miraculous ways. And through Lucy, the Lord showed me he tied in the scripture when I was going through that season of just the lost sheep and the one lost coin and just the Lord used her to teach me really what servant leadership really was.

[00:09:48] Dan: But it was through the one. And so I just think it's somewhat ironic because when you think of performance and metrics and numbers, right? You're thinking of all these, you're thinking numbers, metrics, but the Lord, through his grace and humility took me to the one. But what I'm seeing ever since that day and going through that time of brokenness, is that the one actually multiplies to many ones.

[00:10:11] Dan: But it requires us to focus first on relationship and then performance follows. So that was like a major turning point and my my leadership it was a time that I'll look back and I'll just never forget, just grateful the Lord allowed me to go through that season of my life. That's so powerful.

[00:10:35] Dan: Just thinking about that, how you were so metrics oriented and sometimes missing. The people that helped you achieve those metrics. And I think about how we see that in Jesus' life where he was, he had probably the most important, mission. He had the most important mission in the universe, right?

[00:10:56] Dan: In the whole world. And yet he was, he always saw that one. He always stopped for that one. And it's just amazing how God teaches us that all of us in different ways. And you in this way where you were your heart was right. You wanted to perform your job, you wanted to be excellent. You wanna do the best you possibly could.

[00:11:15] Dan: Yeah. But even in doing that and accomplishing that, the Lord came by and provided, Lucy provided somebody to speak into your life and to help you. And you were able to see even a better way where you could even, you know, not only just accomplish that metric, but do it in a way that builds up people along the way.

[00:11:31] Dan: Yeah. And brought them with you on that journey, and helped them become better in the journey too. So that's just so amazing how the Lord worked through you and spoke spoke that. And and I know that's your, that's part of your journey with your new book, with flipped the script is helping people, move and have turnarounds in their life. And you were doing turnarounds and helping companies turn around from a metric standpoint. But I know. More importantly for you is helping people in their heart and in their mind and in their spirit turn around and and become more oriented towards the one towards Jesus, but also more oriented towards the one, in their lives and becoming more the person that God has called 'em gonna be.

[00:12:11] Dan: So tell us more about this new book, flipping the Script and how did that come to be and just tell us just the details because I know this has been such a journey in your life. Yeah. So you mentioned about wildfire leadership and the the motto and the focus behind wildfire leadership is uncover purpose to unleash full potential.

[00:12:34] Dan: And there's been many things that along the way that I've been passionate about that. Can help people uncover their purpose and unleash their fullest potential. And of course, my mind works many times on what would try to prevent you from living out your purpose. We all know that the mind is a major part, right? Yes. How many people are not living out their purpose because they have so many distractions and doubts and worries and fears? Yes. Whatever it is, right? That we believe in these lies or these negative thoughts, and as a result, we're stuck.

[00:13:14] Dan: And that's where my passion for Flip the Script came from, is that in my own life, I saw how how the enemy tried so many times to really pull me off track from living out my own purpose. And it really stood out. And I hit on this as the opening of my book. That when I was 18 years old, I was it was during a basketball season and hit one of the lowest points of my life in my first 18 years during this season as I really felt like it was during a basketball game and I missed a free throwout, the end of the game.

[00:13:56] Dan: And man, the enemy just used that to really come after me because it was against a rival team and I felt like I lost the game, for the team and for the community. And so all of these thoughts that had been brewing in my mind prior to, for example, like I'm not enough or I keep on striving, but it's just not good enough and different thoughts like that and a lot of perfectionism type thoughts and, it came to a breaking point that night after the game, and I was up in my room and just really was broken and really didn't know what to do. I felt like my mind was almost like somewhat paralyzed in a way. Like I couldn't really get out of this bondage that I had in my mind that night.

[00:14:48] Dan: And my mom approached me and she said, son, are you ready for your mind to be free? And I said, yes, I am. And she said let me help you. And so she helped me identify the lies that I was believing and she would ask me questions to help me identify and expose the lies. And she goes, let me let me show you how these are lies.

[00:15:13] Dan: And then also let's flip these to the truth and I wanna then show you. What the truth, the word of God says. And then what you're gonna do is you're gonna write a couple of those scriptures on three by five cards, just like your dad does. And you're gonna take those and you're gonna start turning those into declarations over your life.

[00:15:35] Dan: And so before that time, I was I would memorize scripture. We memorized scripture ever since I was a little kid. My dad would have us up at six in the morning, memorize the scripture. But what the difference was during this time is my mom showed me how to not only memorize scripture, but how to make it active through reframing and renewing and transforming my mind.

[00:16:04] Dan: And she showed me how to identify the lie, but not ruminate on the lie, but actually take that specific lie to the truth. And then how to declare that of my life. And that was the moment that I started journaling every day for a long time. Matter of fact, my book is 30 years of Journaling and there's a lot of vulnerable stories and examples in my book because it's my journal that I pretty much put into it.

[00:16:36] Dan: And, but from that day forward is when I started journaling. And the journaling then was really pretty much, I didn't know it at the time, but it was all examples of where the Lord was taking lies or thoughts or opportunities to grow. Maybe it wasn't always a negative thought, it was maybe an opportunity to grow and character like Christ.

[00:17:01] Dan: And I would journal these and then I'd flip 'em, and then I'd have little declarations that I would have tied to them. And so then I was leading a small group. A few years later, and I had a couple guys in a group that were battling in their minds, and they said, we just, I just feel like I'm just like stuck and believing this lie.

[00:17:25] Dan: And the more I believe it, the more I feel like it just takes me off course. And they said, do you have any advice? And I said actually, yeah. And I started sharing some things outta my journal. And then after the group, a few of the guys were like, Hey, can you share some of your journal? And so I copied and pasted some of my journal and sent it to them.

[00:17:45] Dan: Then the next week they were like can we talk about this more? So then in the next semester of a small group, some of the guys came back and they were like, what do you, would you be willing to put these into like little devotionals? And so I started putting 'em into devotionals. Anyways, that's where things just kept on, like building upon, which then fast forward to, this this book.

[00:18:10] Dan: So that's kinda how that all started. Wow. Just was thinking, I'm going back to that basketball game and how you missed it and the enemy really just tried to plant seeds of doubt and insecurity and just a, just a fraudulent identity in you and I. Yeah, it's just and. I just wanna encourage moms and dads out there that how your mom walked in and, it was that mother's intuition probably she saw something was going on.

[00:18:35] Dan: Yeah. And and she went in there and dealt with it. And so I just wanna encourage moms and dads out there, that man pay attention to what's going on in your kids' lives because you can sometimes God gives us those intuitions and we can go in and for you, in your case she brought freedom to you and she helped you really navigate how to deal with those things that the enemy really comes against all of us with and gave you, in a sense knowing more about your story and more about wildfire leadership and things really gave you a format for flipping the script in people's lives, right?

[00:19:06] Dan: A lot of that comes back to you, goes back years. And so I just wanna encourage people too that sometimes we get a little confused, God, what are we supposed to be doing right now? Or who am I supposed to be ministering to? Or different things that we're going through in different lives, in parts of our lives and.

[00:19:20] Dan: Oftentimes God's deposited something back,

[00:19:23] Amanda: yeah.

[00:19:23] Months. We, weeks, months, years before that, that he's given us different tools. And so sometimes we just need to look back and see those tools that God has given us. And so for you your mom really gave you a lot of those tools and spoke truth.

[00:19:37] And now not only that, but you're helping people take that same format and freeing them from those mental those mental wars that we all deal with. I think that's just such an amazing thing. Yeah, that's great. I always think of the word framework, whenever we can help provide a framework and make it in a simple way, I think it's so easy to overcomplicate our walk with Christ.

[00:20:01] And I just I just reflect on the different scriptures that talks about the simplicity, but with a framework. What I love about this framework of the flip the script is, like I said earlier about the ruminating. There's something called a Atory Truth principle, which is it's a principle that has been proven that when we think about certain thoughts over and over again, we become so familiar with those thoughts that we believe they're true.

[00:20:33] But here's the awesome thing. If you flip that and you listen to the truth and you have the truth in front of you, and you get so familiar with the truth, the word of God, and you become so familiar with the truth that you believe that is true. And so I just I just think really the framework of how we can immediately, our dream of the app that you're talking about is that everyone in the world would have access to take a thought immediately to the word of God, not ruminating on it and sitting on it.

[00:21:08] And just sitting there and fear endowed and you just keep on, overthinking that and letting that. Then the enemy just takes and runs with it. And we talk about mental health. Mental health, the root comes from the lies of the enemy. And the more that we believe those lies, the more that distracts our mental ability.

[00:21:31] And and so I love what you said about the framework 'cause that's so critical, I believe so that people understand the how, because that's what these guys in a small group are asking is, okay I've heard about transforming the mind and I read Romans 12 and Philippians four, but yet how do you do it?

[00:21:49] And so the framework gives the how. So can you walk us through that just a little bit? I'm just wondering what's a common maybe mindset trap that you see a lot of leaders and just a lot of people fall into? And then can you give us an example of maybe taking that and flipping the script on that?

[00:22:05] Can you work that out for us? Oh, yeah. So I can give you my own personal one example. I used to have a lot of fear of the unknown. I would just really question and doubt whether or not I have what it takes to be, a father of four children and provide, or do I really have what it takes to lead a team of people, and so when I felt like the Lord would call me to be obedient to something that fear of the unknown would've many times try to hold me back. And could be, a fear of lack of provision or, but it was, fear was the root. What I didn't realize is that fear has so many tentacles tied to it.

[00:22:50] For example, even though I mentioned to you about fear of the unknown, it also tied into fear of man. Fear is a major root that has, like I said, all these tentacles. In my case I battled also fear of man. I was when I was in second grade, I had a pretty bad speech impediment. And so when I was sitting in class every day, my speech therapist would approach me at the door and I'd walk out of the classroom, but.

[00:23:24] When I would walk outta the classroom, I could hear my friends in my classroom making all kinds of comments. And I could hear some of them like making fun of certain words that I had a hard time enunciating, for example. And what I didn't realize until I started really going through this framework of the flipping and allowing the Lord to expose some of my some of those lies, was that one of the roots of the fear came from that second grade.

[00:23:54] Because I was so concerned about what my friends as second grade were saying or not saying. Do they like me? Do they accept me because I don't speak as clear as them. I'm not as smart as them 'cause I don't speak well. And even though I didn't intentionally, of course. Oh, Roy, allow those seeds or have those seeds.

[00:24:16] Roy planted in my mind, those seeds of fear, I allowed it. And over the course of years I kept on allowing fear to get more momentum. And so there was a day, and you'll see one of the tools in my in the book and in the app it's called dig. And what it does is it helps you break down through some questions that help get to the root as to why, for example, your say battling fear.

[00:24:44] And what's interesting is a few years ago I went through this process and the Lord took me back to my second grade that I still have not really dealt with that. And I really asked the Lord for forgiveness, for allowing myself to really carry that fear even from second grade. What's the opposite of fear?

[00:25:06] It's courage. And so when you flip it to courage, then I started looking at scripture that really focused on courage. For example, Joshua one, nine, to be strong and courageous, not discouraged or terrified for the Lord's with me wherever I go. So then I would take that and I'd turn into a declaration like I am strong and courageous.

[00:25:29] Like that is the declaration I have in my journal. And I even put it onto one of the tools that I developed called a mission portrait. It's part of my mission is being I call it a courageous catalyst because of the Lord showed me was that as I was growing in courage, the Lord he showed me that I was not gonna just grow in courage, but I was gonna be a change agent in the courage.

[00:25:55] Like I mentioned earlier about the fear of the unknown, that courageous catalyst now has. Roy challenged me as I put my trust in the Lord, that when I do take a step of courage into the unknown, which ironically has been my whole life going into the unknown which is kinda funny in itself.

[00:26:14] You have someone that was fear of the unknown, but the Lord has had me live in the unknown. But being just a change agent in the unknown, so don't just go into the unknown, but be a change agent where the Lord can use me however he wants to see lives impacted for him as I go into that new environment.

[00:26:35] So that's a, an example in my own life of the just how grateful I am the Lord has allowed me to have a renewed mind through the flipping from fear to courage.

[00:26:47] Amanda: That's so good. And even going a step deeper as to, why each of us has struggles with fear of man at some point in our life.

[00:26:55] Amanda: Maybe it could be a daily thing, it might be an occasional thing that we each have to face at some point. But the deeper root of that even being, am I loved? Am I accepted? Yeah. And that's the beauty of the gospel that comes in where we are so loved and accepted unconditionally through the blood of Jesus Christ and having that as that foundation.

[00:27:15] Amanda: And so I know that as a believer that is the foundation that you and your wife Stephanie Carey. And I just wanna ask like, how has your faith shaped your approach to leadership then and decision making?

[00:27:31] Yeah, so my mom said a quote one time, she said the true measure of success is obedience. Wow. The true measure of success is obedience.

[00:27:42] And that just rocked me because it's so freeing. It just seems wait, that's is that right? Yes, it is. When we live a life of obedience and surrender, we can leave the rest up to the Lord. And I always say every morning I'll pray, I'm like, Lord, I'm just gonna be obedient today and surrender all onto you live today, as if it's my last day and do the best I can and let you handle the rest.

[00:28:19] And it's so freeing to know that Lord we don't have to really try to figure out the outcomes, which is so easy to do. Even with our children, it's tempting at times to try to figure out the the outcomes and have these expectations, for their future. And I think true stewardship though is when we're like, Lord, you own a law and you own our children.

[00:28:45] You own everything that we have access to. And so if we can just be, if I can just be obedient to listen to your will and truly live that out, the rest is totally up to you. And so I think that has been so big for me. 'cause again, like I mentioned earlier that my temptation early on in my leadership was all about success and performance of results.

[00:29:12] And so when a result wasn't what I thought it should be, it would wreck me. It would ruin my whole day. When I learned and still learning today of man, when we're just obedient, what happens is the Lord pours the grace upon us. An unmerited favor that even though it might not look like success, he's doing so much more through his grace.

[00:29:38] And so just so grateful that we can, we have the opportunity to put all to our heart and our focus on the Lord through obedience. So important. Obedience. And it, it seems so simple, yet it's so profound, right? Yeah. And I just was thinking how really, in so many ways you can trace all these things back.

[00:30:04] And I was listening, I was thinking about what you were sharing about the speech therapy. And I think I might've been in the classroom next to you at this or maybe when you left the speech therapist. I went into the I didn't see you ever in that classroom, but but I was one of those guys too.

[00:30:16] I had to sit there in front, look in the mirror, and I had to make my s Yeah. My R's hurt. Yep. And it was that goofiest thing. I'd have to step out of class and I couldn't do all these things and I, I just was the goofy sounding kid. And those, and yet at the same time, now fast forward, you're writing books, you're speaking in stages you're encouraging leaders of organizations sometimes even sports, sports players.

[00:30:43] You're speaking in into people's lives. And for me, we're hosting this podcast and we go and speak in different places, in different parts of the world. And the enemy. Really tries to attack us at our core. He tries us at attack us at our identity. He tries to do that with Jesus, and if he tries to do it with Jesus, he'll try to do it with all of us, and oftentimes he tries to attack us at that core point, at that core area, that if he can get us off track, if he can get us to consider the opinions of man or to fear man, he, and get us so focused on those things that we're not obeying, that we're not walking in obedience. He can disrupt so many of the things that God wants to do in our lives and through our lives.

[00:31:26] And so I just, want us. Thank you for being such a so obedient in sharing these truths and in writing this book, because I know it's been a long journey for you as well. There's been ups and downs. There's been, there's been stepping stone. There have been things in your path, but you kept on being obedient because the God had given you a call to share these truths not only in written form, but also in, in this app form and helping create this tool that people can.

[00:31:53] Can use in their daily lives to help flip the script, to help replace those triggers and those lies. And with an immediate sort of truth and with immediate scriptures that, you know, 'cause that was what your mom, really did back, years ago. She took that lie and she replaced it with truth.

[00:32:10] And so would love to hear more about the app that you've created to go along with this. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? What is it named and how can listeners get ahold of that and what are some of the tools within that can help people? Yeah, so it was a little over about two and a half years ago.

[00:32:29] Actually, what's kinda interesting is the editor of the book was introduced from both of you Nancy Su, and isn't that crazy? That was probably how many years ago? She's wonderful. Probably seven, six or seven years ago. I don't know. Yeah. Nancy's great. But anyways, when I really started getting serious about finishing the book was a couple years ago.

[00:32:49] And I remember Nancy, even the editor, she's from Colorado and had never met our family in person, so she didn't know our family very well. But she she said, Hey, isn't your oldest son finishing college in software engineering? And I said yeah, he is. And I said, he's in his last year.

[00:33:11] And she said I just felt led just share with you that man, it could be pretty awesome if he did an app for the book. Wow. And I just blew it off. I'm like, in my mind I'm like, eh, it's not gonna work. He's finished his last year of college and matter of fact, an app is totally different from software engineering.

[00:33:28] I'm not gonna bother my son with something like that. So anyways, then about a year ago, my son will comes up to me and he goes, dad he pointed to the, my stacks of journal papers of me flipping, because it used to be a, I had a whole flip sheet, like a framework. He's dad, I can get rid of that for you.

[00:33:48] And I said, what do you mean? He said, what if I created an app that would allow you to be able to flip in a manner that I could then have it take you right to the word of God? And I said what do you mean? And he started explaining it. He had vision around it. And I said, will, I said, just pause for a second.

[00:34:11] And I called up Nancy and I had a will with me. And I said we were actually in an airport. And I said, I said, Nancy, you won't believe this Will actually is wanting to do an app. And we, it was just a really neat moment. And she did she could've said, I told you but she didn't do that. But anyways so he started developing this app and he gave me the first revision after about four weeks.

[00:34:35] And I'm like, what? This is crazy. So we just kept on building it together and it's been one of the greatest journeys and projects in my entire life. And and so he keeps refining it and now it's getting more and more momentum. And one of the features of the app now that churches are loving is, it's called the Echo.

[00:35:03] And it's where he has it built in the app where it takes the sun. Same message, and it creates, it automatically creates six day devotionals for all the congregants to to use together. So now you have all the church congregants that are focusing on the same daily devotional tied to the message, and then it pointed to the word of God.

[00:35:24] It gives you commentary and then it's what I love most about it is it has a whole community portion where there's dialogue between all of the congregants together, where they're dissecting the message, they're being vulnerable at times. And this has really been neat to see community building and discipleship right there.

[00:35:45] And then they're using the other features of the app for the reframing and renewing of the minds. And so that's just really neat to see. And the other thing, there's other tools embedded in it. That like I said about the dig process, which is it helps you take one of your lies and your roots.

[00:36:04] It can also look at patterns of your last flips and say, Hey, you have a a consistent root of fear. Then it'll ask you questions to help you get down to the root of when that could have occurred, and then how to address that root. So you experience freedom in that.

[00:36:20] Amanda: Wow.

[00:36:21] Yeah, so that's how the, and also I'm gonna be launching it actually next week.

[00:36:27] I was asked if people could start using the book for like small groups. And what's interesting is that a couple years ago, I actually started with a workbook for my book, because that's how my brain's always worked, is having the output first and then building back. So it's neat 'cause I was able to take the workbook and put it into an online interactive study and it's gonna be pretty neat 'cause it's gonna allow people to be interactive together as they're flipping each, in each lesson and it ties right in with the book.

[00:37:04] Wow. Yeah. I just think it's so cool that how God has taken you from through so many different seasons from, and going back to the start of our conversation of how you were working for corporations and you were helping, bring innovation and bring, bring change there and making impact within the organization.

[00:37:21] But now you're, you are managing big projects at that point, but how amazing it is that now you're working and managing a project and building something. With your son. Yeah. And how, just in your own words, that's been like the, that's the, been the most I meaningful or the most impactful and most important project that you've really ever worked on is just, building that with your son and this tool that is Yeah.

[00:37:42] Coming out of, your life's work and how your mom helped you, work, work through things and help you give you that framework and now you're continuing that on. And so I know as leaders become more successful, whether they become more affluent or having more impact, one of the key things that we begin to hear them speak of is the idea of legacy.

[00:38:02] Legacy. And and I'm just wondering like how do you personally define, legacy and in your leadership and in family and in faith? Because I know that's a really important, and I, and I see, glimmers of that. I can see some of that even in what you're doing with your son Will.

[00:38:17] And that legacy of taking, a lifetime of wisdom and how now what really putting it into an app so more people can access some of those things and doing that together with your as father and son. Wow. That's leaving it a legacy. So I'm just wondering how do you define legacy in, in your leadership styles, in your family and in your faith?

[00:38:36] That's a great question. And to me, when I think of legacy, I think of the day we were born. The Lord created each of us with a divine destiny and a purpose and a calling and legacy to me is when you can fully live that out. When you can fully live out the reason he created each of us. And so that is what I believe legacy is all about, is how can we breathe life to really help people uncover that purpose, uncover that calling and that destiny and then breathe life into seeing that fully unleashed and fully lived out so that more lives are impacted.

[00:39:20] 'cause we know that when we live out God's calling and purpose our lives, it's going to impact the lives of others. 'cause that's the reason he created us, is to share his love with others through our giftings and our passions and calling. And so that's what I believe the legacy is when we can help people live out their divine purpose.

[00:39:42] And my personal vision is to uncover. Advise, protect and ignite purpose to unleash fullest potential and uncover. I think it's a major part of legacy. You're helping people understand the reason they were born, advise. You're helping come alongside people however you can. Whether it's through serving them, encouraging them, praying for them, protect.

[00:40:14] What I love about protecting is that we can create certain environments and frameworks so that when the enemy tries to come and really distract someone's purpose and calling, there's certain things that we can really help them with, like the flip the script to really help protect them from going off course and and then ignite.

[00:40:40] Whatever we can do. To really help advance the calling and purpose in one's life. As a whole I believe that is true legacy. And sometimes it's not even through words. It can just be through the fruit of our lives. And it's interesting because my dad is the greatest legacy leader that I've ever encountered in my life.

[00:41:08] And he's eight, gonna be 82 years old and has he's experienced a lot of health, challenges and doesn't have the strength, that he once had, of course, and he sent me his own personal flip last week.

[00:41:24] And the flip was all about. He's okay with me sharing this because he was sharing it with many his flip was that he was kinda getting some, had some negative thoughts around the fact that he was not a true man anymore because he didn't have the strength. He's not able to drive anymore. And so the question of am I a provider, I used to be a protector of my family, and so he's now is using a walker at times because the strengthening, he is getting up and down all these things.

[00:41:56] And so he flipped it and the flip took him to what a true warrior is. And he, the flip then took him into declarations of that. He is a true warrior. He has courage. He is a protector. Why? Because that's who our God is. He is a provider. Why? Because that's who our God is and we reflect him. It doesn't matter how old.

[00:42:19] It doesn't matter what our physical condition looks like we are because of who he is, we reflect him. And so the the flip also just helped bring some perspective to dad that even though physically he might not be where he wants to be spiritually, he is continually leading a legacy because through his spirit, he's the Lord's using him mightily to to really impact lives.

[00:42:50] And so anyways, that it just really hit me. And if it, if the app was just for that, it was so worth it. Amen.

[00:43:01] Amanda: It's amazing, that parent, godly parents are amazing. And Dan and I can both speak to that. We have them as well, and. Just what a gift, what a gift. And it was reminding me as you were sharing about your dad, which is such an amazing testimony of Dan's mom who passed from cancer in 2021.

[00:43:22] Amanda: The legacy that she left of her faith and her courage. And I, it brought back to my memory just how we were sitting in the room and she was getting weaker and she was a go-getter. She was a very driven person, loved to be active, did not like to sit around much. And it was very frustrating for her.

[00:43:41] Amanda: And I would, I decided I unintentionally flipped her script or intentionally, but I teased her a little bit 'cause we had that relationship. And I said you're older and I'm younger, so the older women are supposed to teach the younger women. So just go ahead and teach me. And just putting in perspective, you might not be able to do the physical things, but you have a wealth of wisdom that you need to let out.

[00:44:05] Yes.

[00:44:05] Amanda: And so there's so much, and even Dan and I have both in the past worked with the elderly population in different settings. There is so much wisdom I think that gets lost in when that's not tapped into. And so the fact that, this tool that your dad used the tool and was able to share that with family, with all the listeners, that, that is incredible.

[00:44:31] Yeah. Thanks for sharing that, Amanda. Yeah. I love while we're deep here, before we come up for air, I want to ask one more question on these and 'cause I know this is your heart. I know this is who you are, and so I'm just, wondering if you, while we're down here deep, what's the biggest myth about leadership you want to bust for our listeners?

[00:44:52] The biggest myth about leadership I don't wanna hit on it too much again, but I think one of the greatest myths is that again, it goes back to if you get greater performance and greater numbers and greater, financial returns. That is what it's all about. And I just the way that I bust that is we all know leaders that have chased after that, and it's a rat race and you'll just keep running in circles.

[00:45:26] Whereas if we pursue the heart of God through a godly order of priorities and we have the proper order, the way that we really structure our day and the time we spend by keeping him number one. And then of course if we're married, keeping our wife or husband, and our marriage second, and then our children, and then the rest follows.

[00:45:51] That is true. Leadership is a holistic leader, is one that is a leader that truly focuses on those first fruits. And I know that if I go about my day and I'm not putting the Lord first in my day, it's as a leader, it's not gonna be effective. And I'm not saying that in a condemning way, it's more of a way of it's an opportunity for us to really be intentional and put the Lord first in every area of our lives.

[00:46:24] And so I think, like I said earlier, being a part of organizations that we're very, one was a 10 billion organization, so I was able to see. Leaders operate in that. And it just really confirms and solidifies how important it is to me just to be a leader that has the proper order of priorities.

[00:46:50] Man goes back to seek first a kingdom. Those things will be added and it's such a good challenge for all of us to put the first things first in our lives. And how really God's measuring stick is the measure of obedience that you hit on earlier. And said. Thank you. Yeah. We wanna be respectful of your time and comfort for air a little bit here.

[00:47:11] And always at the end of these interviews, we have a few fun questions we'd love to just ask and just kinda get your perspective on. But the first one is, while we're still on the. On the idea of flip the script, the new book here what's a behind the scenes moment from the writing of the book that still makes you laugh?

[00:47:31] Oh my. Let's see. I think let's see. Definitely some of the laughter comes from the memories of some of the stories, because what was a surprise to me, and one of the benefits of writing the book was that it took me back into moments in my life that were from years ago. And I pull out pictures, from for example, when Steph and I met and there was a picture of her wearing this brown and white polka dot dress.

[00:48:05] So we just started laughing and the kids were like, what's so funny? And so I had to share the story of I had not met Stephanie just over the phone, to be honest with you. We had met over the phone 'cause a youth pastor introduced us and went to that church the following Sunday. And I saw this girl going up to the altar and she was wearing a brown and white polka dotted dress.

[00:48:34] And I remember telling myself, Lord, if that is the girl that has got finished talking to on the phone, I give you all praise like this. Because she was just smoking hot. And I'm sorry, but I, here I'm in church thinking that. But being honest and and and then that next week, I meet her in the hallway at school and find out that was her, that was the girl.

[00:48:59] Wow. And anyways, we were just laughing so hard about that and really reflecting on some of those memories with the kids together. And so that was fun. Wow.

[00:49:13] Amanda: That's awesome,

[00:49:16] man. Bill should be gotta be focusing, putting your thoughts on thoughts above Bill. Man, you hadn't learned, you hadn't memorized that scripture yet.

[00:49:26] Yeah, I'll be honest. That I never had such a desire to go to the altar and pray in my life. You rededicate your life, you rededicate your life that day, didn't you?

[00:49:39] Aw,

[00:49:40] Amanda: that's awesome. So n next question. If you could have dinner with any biblical leader, who would you choose?

[00:49:49] Oh, wow. You know what? I'd say right now. Pastor Craig Relle, number one and Pastor Craig Relle. He is the pastor of Life Church out of Oklahoma. But he is a leader that is truly man. He just lives a life of authenticity and realness and has a fruit.

[00:50:14] Like he has a fruit of a marriage and a family that is so like strong and not perfect, like he will be honest and share things. But he also has been focused on, renewing of the mind, which I'm passionate about as you guys know. And then ironically the YouVersion comes out of him and Bobby Greenwald from Life Church.

[00:50:36] And so I didn't really think too much of the YouVersion app, prior to this as far as the development and all that. But now going through it. I would love to just sit down and and really just have the opportunity to learn from him and Bobby. And it could be even where Will and I, sit down with them someday and just being able, 'cause already what's neat, I'll share this real quick.

[00:51:02] So when Will was developing the app, I was contacting different bible translations to get approval to use them for the app. And after two or three nos, because we didn't have the app with, it was new, it was a new app I'm like, okay, was I wasting my time doing it? And then one of the translations got back with me and said, Hey, it's, it would cost X amount a month to have access to our translation.

[00:51:29] But you version actually just came out with a, a model that they're coming alongside developers to use their platform of the Bible translations. And so hasn't really been tested yet, but maybe it's something you look into. Will, within about an hour started diving into that and got the platform connected with YouVersion and flipped the script.

[00:51:54] And so now we have this partnership in our app together with YouVersion and also he's now finishing up the portion and the development where anything you do in YouVersion, say saving scriptures or whatever, you can exchange it between the two. There's gonna be this connection. So anyways, I just thought that was interesting how that wasn't even something we were trying to do, but here you have a leader that I'm, so I just respect, have so much respect for, and Pastor Craig.

[00:52:27] And how the Lord allowed that to happen.

[00:52:30] Amanda: Awesome. Amazing.

[00:52:32] Yeah. One more for you. I know that we have listed, we have leaders that listen and we have a lot of people that wanna step into leadership or are influencing and, so many times that we have a fear of, making a mistake or, and just the inability to really laugh at ourselves.

[00:52:44] And so from a leadership coach, from a guy who writes books on leadership and does conferences on leadership, what's one of the funniest leadership mistakes you've ever maybe seen or ever made that you just had to just look back and just laugh at? Oh, wow. There's countless, I would say out of the, if you, if I made 10 decisions to move forward with something, it seems like maybe like a 20% success rate.

[00:53:12] That's good to hear. Yeah. Man I would say from a leadership standpoint, you talk about in the business world or. Wherever. Yeah. I would say one of the, one of the greatest mistakes would be I think just as a general, trying to go too fast, I know it's a general, but trying to go too fast and outpacing God's grace.

[00:53:37] I always say, as a leader, if you can be at pace with God's grace so many times I outpace that and I fell right on my face, and so I think as a general, that is probably the biggest mistake I've made, is outpacing God's greatest. I know we've seen that in, d even in a physical realm, right?

[00:53:58] Like with a car, I go too fast. There's, oh yeah. Not good things that happen, right? Yeah, no, you're right. I had, neck surgery a few years ago, and one of the doctors had said can you remember some of the last times where you just put some like major strain in your neck? And so I started explaining how I was lifting weights and he is yeah, you were doing way, you're trying to do way too much beyond what your physical body could have done,

[00:54:24] especially at my age, if I was 20, but yeah. That's awesome. What an honor to have you on the show, bill. And so te tell our listeners how can the, how can our listeners connect with you? Where can they get the book? Where can they, down the left, the app, give us your social media handles?

[00:54:42] Yeah, give us a details. So yeah, so the the book, you can get off Amazon, right? It's called Flip the Script and just put my name in there as the as the author know will pop up. And then the app is under Apple and Google Android. So if you just go to the app store and type in flip the script, it will pop up.

[00:55:01] And then the websites we have, it's called get flip the script.com. And so that has the whole all the resources. And in there you'll also see access to it'll point to the book, it'll also give you some video tutorials of the app, and then also access to the small group study for the online study.

[00:55:24] And then we have an Instagram handle called Get Flip the Script. And then we also have a website called wildfire leadership.com. And wildfire is kind of the mothership of everything we do. And within Wildfire. There's different sectors that our curriculum and content is going into, and it's colleges and it's K through 12 schools, so it's in the education sector.

[00:55:52] And then we also go into businesses and we also for the businesses, we do a lot of coaching as well. And then in the faith-based sector, so a lot of our content curriculum is in churches and whether it's the app or also we have a discipleship curriculum that also ties in with students for career discovery.

[00:56:14] So a lot of parents are wondering, how to come alongside their students or their children when they are students in preparation for their future, while we have content curriculum that ties in career discovery to their purpose, their dreams, their vision. And so that's been a really neat.

[00:56:36] Resource as well. And again you can see all that through the Wildfire leadership website and get any more information you need through that. Awesome. Listeners, as always, we'll have those in the show notes for you, bill. Wow. So amazing to see the fruition of a journey that you've been on for a long time.

[00:56:59] And we've known you for many years and we've heard some of these ideas and concepts, throughout the years, and it's just so encouraging to see God bring it to pass. And so just we just continue to speak blessing and favor over you and over your ministry and over your family, and we're just excited to see how God uses this tool.

[00:57:14] Flip the script book, the Flip the Script app, and just all the other different tools, wildfire leadership and your marriage curriculum, which we didn't even get a chance to touch on, but wow, thank you so much for being on the show and sharing with us and with our listeners today.

[00:57:27] Thank you. And thank you, Dan, Amanda, for all you guys do. And you are excellent leaders. And just thank you for all you're doing in the mission field as well, and for your sacrifice and servant leadership. Just really grateful for you guys and your example. Amen. Thank.

[00:57:48]