1 00:00:02,248 --> 00:00:05,698 Eddie: Welcome to episode 7 of the WebJoy podcast. 2 00:00:06,699 --> 00:00:07,719 I'm your host, Eddie. 3 00:00:08,019 --> 00:00:11,919 In this podcast, we interview guests about their origin story and what 4 00:00:11,919 --> 00:00:15,279 makes them excited and joyful to be part of the tech community. 5 00:00:15,789 --> 00:00:20,859 I hope you enjoy today's episode "So Many Options to Learn" with Emily Patterson 6 00:00:21,500 --> 00:00:25,260 I'm excited to have Emily joining us today. 7 00:00:25,265 --> 00:00:29,350 Emily say hi, and let people know a little bit about who 8 00:00:29,350 --> 00:00:30,370 you are and what you do. 9 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:31,990 Emily: Yeah for sure. 10 00:00:31,995 --> 00:00:33,735 Thanks for having me on Eddie Hi everyone. 11 00:00:33,735 --> 00:00:35,265 My name is Emily Patterson. 12 00:00:35,265 --> 00:00:39,575 I am the Director of Product Management at Fortress Information Security. 13 00:00:40,075 --> 00:00:44,235 So I am helping build cybersecurity software for 14 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:45,495 critical infrastructure companies. 15 00:00:45,545 --> 00:00:47,665 Anyone who provides your power in the United States. 16 00:00:48,005 --> 00:00:51,755 I've been in technology for about 15 years did that math the 17 00:00:51,755 --> 00:00:52,925 other day got very depressed. 18 00:00:54,165 --> 00:00:58,145 I've worked in a lot of different industries, primarily in B2B SaaS 19 00:00:58,695 --> 00:01:02,650 so I've done immigration SaaS, I've done health tech, and most recently 20 00:01:02,655 --> 00:01:06,700 I've been in cyber security So this is my second stint in cyber security 21 00:01:07,125 --> 00:01:07,935 and it's a really great field. 22 00:01:07,965 --> 00:01:10,605 Can't recommend it enough if folks are interested in it. 23 00:01:10,610 --> 00:01:11,780 I do product management. 24 00:01:12,090 --> 00:01:15,295 I've gone through the gamut of levels of product management from individual 25 00:01:15,300 --> 00:01:17,365 contributor to running my entire team. 26 00:01:17,735 --> 00:01:23,685 In general have really spent a lot of time around technologists and working in 27 00:01:23,685 --> 00:01:26,845 different contexts and making different connections with folks et cetera. 28 00:01:26,850 --> 00:01:30,765 So very excited to be on this podcast with you, Eddie and talking 29 00:01:30,765 --> 00:01:33,945 about what I like about it about it, cause it's easy to be negative. 30 00:01:33,995 --> 00:01:35,285 Eddie: Yeah, absolutely. 31 00:01:35,345 --> 00:01:38,465 Well, so how did you get involved in product management? 32 00:01:38,465 --> 00:01:41,965 How did you decide, oh, Hey, this sounds like a thing I'd like to do. 33 00:01:42,725 --> 00:01:45,695 Emily: Yeah So product is one of those fields that back when I was in college, 34 00:01:45,695 --> 00:01:47,315 that was definitely not a thing at all. 35 00:01:47,385 --> 00:01:50,115 So I knew I wanted to get into technology. 36 00:01:50,490 --> 00:01:53,900 I did my undergraduate degree at Boston University and I started 37 00:01:53,900 --> 00:01:58,865 doing some consulting work and got familiar with what opportunities 38 00:01:58,865 --> 00:02:00,575 there are actually in technology. 39 00:02:00,605 --> 00:02:03,185 One of the things I really thought I was good at and things that I liked 40 00:02:03,185 --> 00:02:05,705 was working around software engineers. 41 00:02:06,045 --> 00:02:07,660 I'd taken a couple coding classes in high 42 00:02:07,660 --> 00:02:08,590 school and college. 43 00:02:08,670 --> 00:02:10,050 To be honest, not very good at it. 44 00:02:10,740 --> 00:02:14,950 can't debug my own code for my life, so it's really limiting for 45 00:02:14,950 --> 00:02:18,350 a developer career path so I was working as a project coordinator 46 00:02:18,355 --> 00:02:20,130 type person and a business analyst. 47 00:02:20,410 --> 00:02:24,170 When I was very early in my career, and then from the business analyst role, I 48 00:02:24,170 --> 00:02:26,940 kind of morphed into product management. 49 00:02:26,940 --> 00:02:31,710 There was a large rebranding, that a lot of tech companies did in the late 50 00:02:31,710 --> 00:02:36,005 zero zeros early tens, to move away from the title of business analyst 51 00:02:36,005 --> 00:02:40,035 to product manager, product owner so that's kind of how I got into it 52 00:02:40,035 --> 00:02:41,385 and I've just been in it ever since. 53 00:02:41,385 --> 00:02:44,450 So I started my career writing business requirements. 54 00:02:45,398 --> 00:02:49,320 BRDs in the waterfall world, PRDs in the agile world. 55 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:49,740 who just did a 56 00:02:49,740 --> 00:02:53,360 rebranding, but doing a lot of that documentation, working with the 57 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,840 engineers, getting work planned, getting roadmaps made that sort of thing. 58 00:02:56,845 --> 00:02:58,705 It's just been my life ever since. 59 00:02:58,765 --> 00:03:00,505 I'm pretty good at it now, I like to think. 60 00:03:01,140 --> 00:03:01,650 Eddie: Yeah. 61 00:03:01,920 --> 00:03:05,280 I'm sure you all, if you've made it this long, I think you're 62 00:03:05,285 --> 00:03:06,360 probably pretty good at what you do. 63 00:03:08,710 --> 00:03:12,400 What is it about product management that keeps you excited? 64 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,265 Keeps you kind of plugged into things and enjoying what you do. 65 00:03:16,365 --> 00:03:19,785 Emily: Yeah product is one of those roles that actually can be pretty exhausting. 66 00:03:19,835 --> 00:03:22,805 I certainly have burned out in my career a couple of years ago. 67 00:03:22,805 --> 00:03:26,405 I had a pretty pretty tough mental health couple of months there. 68 00:03:26,455 --> 00:03:28,755 After, you know, really just giving your all to a company 69 00:03:28,815 --> 00:03:30,195 and it really can drain you. 70 00:03:30,245 --> 00:03:34,655 And I try to caution younger, early career product managers to not let that happen. 71 00:03:34,655 --> 00:03:38,255 Cause it's very easy You owe a lot of people, a lot of things 72 00:03:38,260 --> 00:03:41,705 as a product person you owe your engineers, some good explanations and 73 00:03:41,755 --> 00:03:43,815 business justification and context. 74 00:03:43,835 --> 00:03:47,655 You owe your stakeholders information about what's coming up next and 75 00:03:47,655 --> 00:03:51,265 what's happening and if, anything has gone wrong wrong and you owe 76 00:03:51,265 --> 00:03:55,055 your customers follow ups and release notes and all those sorts of things. 77 00:03:55,105 --> 00:03:59,225 Product management can very easily be too big of a job, to be honest with you. 78 00:03:59,225 --> 00:04:01,395 There's a lot you have to do, and there's a lot of responsibilities. 79 00:04:01,965 --> 00:04:04,995 I think as a group product managers tend to put a lot of pressure on ourselves . We 80 00:04:04,995 --> 00:04:08,265 always have to be showing up for our team and showing up for our boss and showing 81 00:04:08,265 --> 00:04:11,905 up for the C-suite and showing up for our customers, and our other stakeholders. 82 00:04:11,910 --> 00:04:15,405 And it can be really exhausting to, and you forget that you also 83 00:04:15,405 --> 00:04:16,395 have to show up for yourself. 84 00:04:16,785 --> 00:04:21,105 So product for me has always been a thing that I just really like building stuff. 85 00:04:21,105 --> 00:04:25,610 I like seeing it go from an idea to a real thing that people use I work 86 00:04:25,610 --> 00:04:30,495 in B2B SaaS so one of the things that I get a lot of joy from is actually 87 00:04:30,495 --> 00:04:32,715 helping other people do their job. 88 00:04:32,885 --> 00:04:39,105 So when you're in B2B, someone is trying to be an accountant or trying to be 89 00:04:39,105 --> 00:04:44,415 an immigration lawyer or trying to be a Cybersecurity engineer or analyst 90 00:04:44,745 --> 00:04:49,215 and your software is helping them do a better job at what they do . So 91 00:04:49,220 --> 00:04:52,620 you're literally enabling someone to do their job and that can be really 92 00:04:52,620 --> 00:04:54,270 powerful to think about at scale. 93 00:04:54,270 --> 00:04:59,635 Cause if you are working in marketing technology and you have 50 big customers. 94 00:04:59,945 --> 00:05:02,705 Think about how many people that's impacting, not only the marketers, but 95 00:05:02,705 --> 00:05:04,355 the people receiving the marketing, right? 96 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,915 So actually even the smaller things that you do can have a really big ripple 97 00:05:08,975 --> 00:05:12,365 effect And if you take really good like pride and care of your products 98 00:05:12,365 --> 00:05:15,390 and you keep improving them and giving them love and care and affection. 99 00:05:15,750 --> 00:05:19,200 You can really have a big impact on how someone's day goes. 100 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:24,040 If you think about that, some random cybersecurity engineer like logs into 101 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,200 my product on a daily or weekly basis. 102 00:05:27,205 --> 00:05:28,580 And that's a part of their life. 103 00:05:28,580 --> 00:05:29,960 That's what they get paid to do. 104 00:05:30,180 --> 00:05:33,660 If you don't enable them to do their job well, you're kind of failing at your job. 105 00:05:33,660 --> 00:05:38,125 So it's a responsibility but I love having that kind of an of an impact. 106 00:05:38,695 --> 00:05:42,115 Right now we literally secure the grid of the United States. 107 00:05:42,155 --> 00:05:43,145 That's a big thing, right? 108 00:05:43,195 --> 00:05:46,955 I get a lot of personal satisfaction from those moments, when you take a 109 00:05:46,955 --> 00:05:50,555 step back and really think about the big picture on on what we're doing here 110 00:05:50,605 --> 00:05:54,535 in software I think it's easy to kinda get swept away and in the bugs and the 111 00:05:54,535 --> 00:05:56,755 backlog and you know, oh my goodness. 112 00:05:56,755 --> 00:06:01,990 The sprint and story points and all of that stuff Thinking about the big picture. 113 00:06:01,990 --> 00:06:05,045 It's really fulfilling what we do if you really think about it and 114 00:06:05,055 --> 00:06:08,465 your product is providing, a good service and hopefully everyone's 115 00:06:08,465 --> 00:06:09,905 product is providing a good service. 116 00:06:10,485 --> 00:06:15,045 Eddie: And if it's not you may want to think about things reflect a little bit 117 00:06:15,060 --> 00:06:18,620 Emily: you might consider maybe another company company . But that's what 118 00:06:18,620 --> 00:06:21,590 keeps me coming back every day, to be honest with you I just love building. 119 00:06:21,590 --> 00:06:22,910 I love working with engineers. 120 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,240 I really appreciate hanging out with my fellow nerds on a 121 00:06:27,245 --> 00:06:28,565 regular basis I think it's great. 122 00:06:28,565 --> 00:06:31,655 I found myself a couple years ago after I burned out trying to think what else 123 00:06:31,655 --> 00:06:35,160 would I do with my life and I have decided that this is just what I do with my life I 124 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,290 can't imagine myself doing anything else. 125 00:06:37,290 --> 00:06:37,770 To be honest. 126 00:06:37,820 --> 00:06:38,600 Eddie: That's awesome. 127 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,740 I think two things that stood out, first of all, I love that idea, product 128 00:06:42,740 --> 00:06:44,780 managers are showing up for everyone else. 129 00:06:44,840 --> 00:06:46,520 You've gotta show up for yourself too. 130 00:06:46,590 --> 00:06:50,670 I feel like that's probably gonna end up as a quote somewhere on a page in 131 00:06:50,670 --> 00:06:53,100 marketing about this podcast in some way. 132 00:06:53,220 --> 00:06:54,000 Cuz I love that quote. 133 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:54,540 That's amazing. 134 00:06:54,570 --> 00:06:58,240 You probably should use that quote if you haven't like on your 135 00:06:58,240 --> 00:06:59,230 Twitter and different things. 136 00:06:59,230 --> 00:07:00,540 I that's excellent. 137 00:07:01,430 --> 00:07:07,465 But also with your story it seems like not only have you been in a lot of B2B 138 00:07:07,470 --> 00:07:11,425 spaces, but it sounds like you've been in a lot of B2B spaces that really 139 00:07:11,425 --> 00:07:13,395 are kind of public utility focused. 140 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:18,350 The grid, cyber security , I believe you said kind of healthcare and stuff. 141 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:23,110 Emily: Mm-hmm and not everybody I think needs to follow a path of needing to 142 00:07:23,110 --> 00:07:25,450 work in a place like that necessarily. 143 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:27,500 It takes all sorts for sure. 144 00:07:27,500 --> 00:07:30,530 And even the fun stuff is there to give people joy and pleasure 145 00:07:30,530 --> 00:07:34,580 and things like that But yes, it definitely makes the tough days easier 146 00:07:34,580 --> 00:07:38,360 to recover when you can think about the good that you are helping to do. 147 00:07:39,300 --> 00:07:41,580 I know a lot of people actually trying to get into like climate 148 00:07:41,580 --> 00:07:43,440 tech right now for the same reasons. 149 00:07:43,740 --> 00:07:48,290 There's just the appeal of doing something for future generations and for the good 150 00:07:48,290 --> 00:07:51,700 of the earth and for other people and that sort of things I think there's more 151 00:07:51,705 --> 00:07:55,330 of an appeal now if you're thinking about a career change or a different 152 00:07:55,335 --> 00:07:59,784 industry, I have found it to be a great motivator in my day to day work. 153 00:08:01,314 --> 00:08:02,544 Eddie: Awesome that's great. 154 00:08:03,229 --> 00:08:07,279 As we do with this podcast, we talk about, Hey, what's something that 155 00:08:07,279 --> 00:08:10,039 brings you joy in the tech industry. 156 00:08:10,044 --> 00:08:13,489 And so I wanna extend that question to you, Emily, what is it that you've 157 00:08:13,489 --> 00:08:17,089 found or noticed that brings you joy that you'd like to talk about today? 158 00:08:17,659 --> 00:08:17,899 Emily: Yeah. 159 00:08:17,899 --> 00:08:21,829 So the one thing I have been doing is standing up a product management 160 00:08:21,829 --> 00:08:25,269 incubator, which we could talk about a little bit later but in doing that, 161 00:08:25,269 --> 00:08:30,309 I have been exploring and looking at a bunch of different B2B SaaS tools that 162 00:08:30,309 --> 00:08:34,484 maybe I don't get to use in my day job but I know other people get to use in 163 00:08:34,484 --> 00:08:39,494 their day job and so I have been looking a lot at like Miro and some of the other 164 00:08:39,494 --> 00:08:43,644 collaboration tools like Mural with an L at the end, Figma, all of these kind 165 00:08:43,644 --> 00:08:48,734 of tools that product managers use, even Atlassian with Confluence and Jira. 166 00:08:48,784 --> 00:08:54,484 What I've been seeing lately is this trend, and I love it of just a lot of 167 00:08:54,919 --> 00:08:57,709 best practices and knowledge sharing. 168 00:08:57,709 --> 00:09:00,859 So when you sign up for Miro, you're not just getting a whiteboarding 169 00:09:00,859 --> 00:09:04,009 tool, and someone just put this on Twitter that I saw like yesterday or 170 00:09:04,009 --> 00:09:07,309 today or something like that, you're also getting all of these templates. 171 00:09:07,579 --> 00:09:12,529 And if you look at the templates, they have done an amazing job of writing like 172 00:09:12,589 --> 00:09:14,149 "this is a jobs to be done" template. 173 00:09:14,149 --> 00:09:17,479 Here's what jobs to be done is here's how you would use this template. 174 00:09:17,479 --> 00:09:18,979 Here's how you could use this template. 175 00:09:18,979 --> 00:09:21,109 Here's who generally is using this template. 176 00:09:21,109 --> 00:09:24,404 This is great for product managers and designers and UX researchers. 177 00:09:24,404 --> 00:09:26,684 And they've done such a good job of creating that content. 178 00:09:27,134 --> 00:09:32,514 Not only are they doing it for retention and conversion and tracking those metrics. 179 00:09:32,814 --> 00:09:38,109 They're making it more valuable as a product But I mean, it's out there. 180 00:09:38,109 --> 00:09:39,159 It's free to look at. 181 00:09:39,159 --> 00:09:41,289 You can go look at the Figma help pages. 182 00:09:41,289 --> 00:09:45,909 You don't have to be a Figma customer to go see their support section And they have 183 00:09:45,909 --> 00:09:49,359 so much knowledge sharing that they're doing about best practices, about how they 184 00:09:49,359 --> 00:09:54,009 use tools about how tools can be used And then I thought Miro was a great example, 185 00:09:54,009 --> 00:09:59,569 cuz you could learn like all of the really big product manager frameworks that we 186 00:09:59,569 --> 00:10:04,774 use Very simply by clicking through all of these templates and reading about them. 187 00:10:04,774 --> 00:10:06,264 I thought it was so great to see. 188 00:10:06,749 --> 00:10:10,379 I've seen this on a bunch of other tools too, and it I think in my 189 00:10:10,379 --> 00:10:13,799 opinion, not only is it helping obviously their retention and metrics 190 00:10:13,804 --> 00:10:16,769 et cetera but it's also allowing people who don't have access to that 191 00:10:16,769 --> 00:10:21,234 information to learn about it, which is traditionally been the gate, right. 192 00:10:21,244 --> 00:10:25,324 On a lot of technical topics and in product management, especially, it's 193 00:10:25,324 --> 00:10:29,134 really hard to know what goes on over there, unless you already work in 194 00:10:29,134 --> 00:10:31,954 a tech company, unless you already work with the software development 195 00:10:31,954 --> 00:10:34,744 team in some capacity, and you've interacted with a product manager 196 00:10:34,749 --> 00:10:35,944 before and you can see them work. 197 00:10:36,164 --> 00:10:37,844 Like what do they do over there exactly? 198 00:10:37,904 --> 00:10:43,024 And now you can just go Google this and there's 18,000 Medium articles and 199 00:10:43,054 --> 00:10:46,834 20,000 Google search results or whatever, probably 2 million Google search results. 200 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,640 Product Board was the other one that I was looking at, they do a really great job of 201 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,550 trying to tell you, not only about their product, but about product management 202 00:10:53,550 --> 00:10:55,530 in general, like here's how to do this. 203 00:10:55,530 --> 00:11:00,480 And I just was on a mini conference with them and got introduced to their community 204 00:11:00,485 --> 00:11:05,080 and they have put up a whole community and, obviously, to support their product. 205 00:11:05,130 --> 00:11:07,270 But in general it's free to use. 206 00:11:07,270 --> 00:11:11,755 Anyone can log in and just ask a bunch of questions and there's a huge amount 207 00:11:11,755 --> 00:11:13,425 of knowledge sharing that I see. 208 00:11:13,455 --> 00:11:16,805 they're also really helping people understand what happens behind 209 00:11:16,805 --> 00:11:19,895 the scenes, how people do that and the Dev Community has this too. 210 00:11:19,895 --> 00:11:20,975 They're the same way. 211 00:11:21,215 --> 00:11:24,245 They have so many resources that are totally free and open 212 00:11:24,455 --> 00:11:26,705 and you just register and like, woo here's all your stuff. 213 00:11:26,705 --> 00:11:29,875 You can really get yourself acquainted with what goes on and, how it works. 214 00:11:29,875 --> 00:11:32,890 You don't necessarily have to pay $15,000 for a bootcamp. 215 00:11:33,610 --> 00:11:36,305 To understand if it's something you're interested in, which I 216 00:11:36,305 --> 00:11:39,065 think is super duper important for people trying to get into tech, 217 00:11:39,065 --> 00:11:40,775 trying to transition around tech. 218 00:11:40,775 --> 00:11:45,640 If you're a UX person and you think maybe you wanna learn how to code I maybe you 219 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,780 don't wanna pay a bunch of money to get a CS degree or something like that. 220 00:11:49,785 --> 00:11:53,270 Or go to a bootcamp and those sorts of options that exist. 221 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,370 It's so much easier to just dip your toe into. 222 00:11:55,810 --> 00:11:58,630 I was just chatting with the alumni group from Boston university, 223 00:11:58,630 --> 00:11:59,890 my undergrad this morning. 224 00:11:59,890 --> 00:12:03,030 And I was talking about that in the same lines as like, when I was in college. 225 00:12:03,180 --> 00:12:06,480 If you didn't take a class in it you really didn't know about it. 226 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:07,830 There was none of this stuff out there. 227 00:12:07,885 --> 00:12:11,635 It was really hard to know what was going on in the tech field to understand 228 00:12:11,990 --> 00:12:15,135 what career options are available to you and how does that team work? 229 00:12:15,135 --> 00:12:18,455 And if you decide, I don't wanna code there's a million tech jobs that 230 00:12:18,455 --> 00:12:23,300 don't involve coding and It's hard to tell what those are sometimes, 231 00:12:23,510 --> 00:12:26,450 but now all these resources are out there and you can go find out. 232 00:12:26,450 --> 00:12:27,140 It's amazing. 233 00:12:27,410 --> 00:12:27,920 It's so great. 234 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:29,780 I was telling someone about being a technical writer. 235 00:12:29,810 --> 00:12:33,170 Like you can work in a tech company and use your english major. 236 00:12:33,290 --> 00:12:33,980 I'm serious. 237 00:12:33,980 --> 00:12:36,980 You can use that English major that you have from your liberal arts college. 238 00:12:37,850 --> 00:12:41,710 And you could be a really great tech writer and make a bundle of money and 239 00:12:41,710 --> 00:12:45,080 work in these great companies and get all these perks you don't have to be 240 00:12:45,085 --> 00:12:49,070 an English teacher to use your degree and I think that is the one thing that 241 00:12:49,075 --> 00:12:52,580 I've noticed lately in the last like five or seven years, product marketing 242 00:12:52,580 --> 00:12:54,320 is like a really big thing now. 243 00:12:54,620 --> 00:12:58,943 And developer relations they produce a ton of great content for free. 244 00:12:58,943 --> 00:13:02,453 That's their job is to say, Hey, you could use this tool in this 245 00:13:02,458 --> 00:13:06,203 context and do this and you they just help you do your job better. 246 00:13:06,203 --> 00:13:11,848 You don't have to hunt down somebody and beg them for their time or spend 247 00:13:11,848 --> 00:13:15,998 a bunch of money going to classes or certifications or anything like that. 248 00:13:15,998 --> 00:13:19,388 You've got these things that are available to a lot of folks. 249 00:13:19,803 --> 00:13:23,883 And all it takes is the internet and a couple of hours that you commit to it 250 00:13:23,883 --> 00:13:25,803 and you can learn just so many things. 251 00:13:26,223 --> 00:13:28,888 You know I was poking around at cloud security the other day. 252 00:13:28,893 --> 00:13:31,888 I don't have ton of cloud security experience, so I was learning about 253 00:13:31,893 --> 00:13:35,703 it and it's so easy now to access resources and everyone has written a 254 00:13:35,703 --> 00:13:37,233 book there's books about everything. 255 00:13:37,443 --> 00:13:40,413 Doesn't matter what the topic is there's gonna be a book about it. 256 00:13:40,413 --> 00:13:42,693 Like someone's written a book about the very niche thing. 257 00:13:42,943 --> 00:13:46,443 One of my Twitter buddies just published a book about platform product 258 00:13:46,443 --> 00:13:48,303 management, like extremely niche. 259 00:13:48,303 --> 00:13:52,932 And it was super helpful and very well written And I just love that. 260 00:13:52,932 --> 00:13:53,592 I love that. 261 00:13:53,592 --> 00:13:56,612 people can go on Gumroad and publish a book. 262 00:13:56,832 --> 00:14:00,462 And now there's this super niche topic that you can pay $5 263 00:14:00,462 --> 00:14:02,412 for and have a book available. 264 00:14:02,412 --> 00:14:06,127 And it's just so different than if you didn't have an O'Reilly media contract in 265 00:14:06,842 --> 00:14:09,062 2001, you weren't gonna get your stuff up. 266 00:14:09,352 --> 00:14:12,398 Be thoughtful about what you're signing up for but just the fact that there's 267 00:14:12,398 --> 00:14:14,828 so much available I think is incredible. 268 00:14:14,828 --> 00:14:15,398 And I love it. 269 00:14:15,398 --> 00:14:19,868 And it's so great for decreasing the barriers to get into different 270 00:14:19,868 --> 00:14:21,518 jobs inside of the tech world. 271 00:14:21,568 --> 00:14:24,448 I remember in high school, like shelving Pearl books. 272 00:14:24,498 --> 00:14:27,698 I worked at our public library and I had the computer books 273 00:14:27,698 --> 00:14:28,958 section, which was awesome for me. 274 00:14:28,958 --> 00:14:30,728 Cause I got to read them sometimes on my break. 275 00:14:31,328 --> 00:14:32,408 But that's what we used to do. 276 00:14:32,408 --> 00:14:32,648 Right. 277 00:14:32,648 --> 00:14:35,588 You checked out a Pearl book from the library and then you went 278 00:14:35,588 --> 00:14:37,298 home and you tried to do it. 279 00:14:37,303 --> 00:14:40,568 You didn't have a tutorial on your screen on YouTube that you could 280 00:14:40,568 --> 00:14:43,723 literally code along with and it's a total game changer, I think for 281 00:14:43,723 --> 00:14:46,363 people to learn in different ways. 282 00:14:46,413 --> 00:14:49,503 If you can't just read a book and understand it, most of us, I don't think 283 00:14:49,503 --> 00:14:51,513 can do that to be totally honest with you. 284 00:14:51,993 --> 00:14:55,073 I think especially in technology, a lot of us are visual people, like we 285 00:14:55,073 --> 00:14:58,563 want to see it and understand it to fully like process what's going on. 286 00:14:59,263 --> 00:15:02,743 And just having the ability to be like, you could read a book or you could watch a 287 00:15:02,743 --> 00:15:05,983 YouTube video, or you could read this blog cause it's shorter or you could listen 288 00:15:05,983 --> 00:15:10,573 to a podcast or an audio book or something like you've got so many options to learn 289 00:15:10,573 --> 00:15:15,223 about whatever developers, relations, product management, there's like 18,000 290 00:15:15,223 --> 00:15:17,503 product manager podcasts right now. 291 00:15:17,503 --> 00:15:18,943 And I love every single one of them. 292 00:15:18,943 --> 00:15:20,833 And I try to listen to as many as I can. 293 00:15:21,083 --> 00:15:21,953 Cause it's just so fun. 294 00:15:21,953 --> 00:15:22,883 How much is out there. 295 00:15:22,943 --> 00:15:23,363 I love it. 296 00:15:23,463 --> 00:15:24,303 Eddie: I think that's great. 297 00:15:24,303 --> 00:15:27,193 I think the different formats is a huge thing. 298 00:15:27,263 --> 00:15:31,039 I have two toddlers . I don't have a lot of time to sit and like read 299 00:15:31,039 --> 00:15:35,947 books so I listen to podcasts and that way, like I still get to consume 300 00:15:35,947 --> 00:15:37,777 stuff while I'm doing other things. 301 00:15:38,097 --> 00:15:40,907 Whereas in other times I've just wanted to read and I haven't 302 00:15:40,907 --> 00:15:41,897 wanted to listen to anything. 303 00:15:41,897 --> 00:15:43,187 You wanna sit in the quiet right. 304 00:15:43,187 --> 00:15:44,057 On a rainy day. 305 00:15:44,727 --> 00:15:48,107 Emily: Only someone with toddlers and babies can really, I think 306 00:15:48,107 --> 00:15:50,327 comprehend like, yes I would like to sit in the silence. 307 00:15:52,362 --> 00:15:53,232 Eddie: Absolutely. 308 00:15:54,112 --> 00:15:55,312 So I think that's awesome. 309 00:15:55,312 --> 00:15:59,767 Those different formats, but I think one other thing that I think is really cool 310 00:15:59,767 --> 00:16:05,527 about the information sharing about what you're talking about is that these tools 311 00:16:05,527 --> 00:16:10,807 actually also open up the information, sharing across functional areas. 312 00:16:10,807 --> 00:16:14,747 So for example I actually was the one who introduced Miro at my last company. 313 00:16:14,997 --> 00:16:16,372 I was like, Hey, I'm gonna use this. 314 00:16:16,372 --> 00:16:18,802 The pandemic had started and I was like, I need a way to be able 315 00:16:18,802 --> 00:16:20,782 to engage with the team visually. 316 00:16:20,782 --> 00:16:27,342 So I started the trial of Miro and we just happened to use it with one 317 00:16:27,347 --> 00:16:30,072 of the product managers one time, and then he fell in love with it. 318 00:16:30,352 --> 00:16:34,727 Then the product team ended up using it more than my team of 319 00:16:34,727 --> 00:16:36,347 front end engineers and designers. 320 00:16:36,437 --> 00:16:41,752 But they made sure that every time they did a planning sheet, 321 00:16:41,782 --> 00:16:43,882 that we were added to it. 322 00:16:43,882 --> 00:16:47,312 And so we could see their thoughts as they developed. 323 00:16:47,317 --> 00:16:49,652 And when it was time to start talking about where they're 324 00:16:49,652 --> 00:16:50,912 at in the discovery process. 325 00:16:50,917 --> 00:16:54,672 They could walk us through the highlights and we could go down later 326 00:16:54,702 --> 00:16:56,202 and dig in as much as we wanted to. 327 00:16:56,262 --> 00:17:00,122 But suddenly as engineers and as designers, we got to see the 328 00:17:00,122 --> 00:17:04,142 discovery process that our product partners were doing and it made 329 00:17:04,142 --> 00:17:06,062 it so much less of a black box. 330 00:17:06,112 --> 00:17:09,562 It made it feel like we were more partners and we were actually 331 00:17:09,562 --> 00:17:10,882 able to share information. 332 00:17:11,302 --> 00:17:14,192 And we understood where they were coming from, and so that helped 333 00:17:14,372 --> 00:17:19,112 take down some of that like product engineering barrier, if you will. 334 00:17:19,112 --> 00:17:20,282 That sometimes exists. 335 00:17:21,002 --> 00:17:21,542 Emily: Yes. 336 00:17:21,732 --> 00:17:22,602 I love to hear that. 337 00:17:22,602 --> 00:17:25,827 One of the things that I always try to coach more early career product 338 00:17:25,827 --> 00:17:28,647 managers is , there's no such thing as sharing your work too early. 339 00:17:28,707 --> 00:17:29,307 Just share it. 340 00:17:29,307 --> 00:17:30,537 I don't care what state it's in. 341 00:17:30,747 --> 00:17:34,347 Be a hot mess, huge rough draft, bunch of errors in it I don't care. 342 00:17:34,347 --> 00:17:35,157 Share it anyway. 343 00:17:35,157 --> 00:17:38,507 It's just so nice to give people that transparency and 344 00:17:38,507 --> 00:17:39,947 allow them to follow along. 345 00:17:39,952 --> 00:17:40,157 Right. 346 00:17:40,157 --> 00:17:42,707 Everyone likes to To understand what their colleagues are 347 00:17:42,707 --> 00:17:44,027 doing on a day to day basis. 348 00:17:44,032 --> 00:17:47,717 And product managers, especially, it's not as cut and dried as I coded a thing. 349 00:17:47,717 --> 00:17:48,767 Here's the thing I coded. 350 00:17:48,827 --> 00:17:49,577 Now you can see it. 351 00:17:49,607 --> 00:17:50,657 QA has tested it. 352 00:17:50,717 --> 00:17:54,347 Here's the thing I built You know it's it's not always that not 353 00:17:54,367 --> 00:17:57,167 always that straightforward for other functions, not just product managers 354 00:17:57,167 --> 00:18:01,622 obviously other people who do more conversational work and more relationship 355 00:18:01,622 --> 00:18:02,552 building and things like that. 356 00:18:02,552 --> 00:18:06,092 Always kind of you know have that issue of like, well, what did you do today? 357 00:18:06,122 --> 00:18:11,912 Like, whoa, look at my calendar but being able to share those conversations 358 00:18:11,912 --> 00:18:16,352 in that way is super powerful across an organization for alignment, 359 00:18:16,712 --> 00:18:19,052 uh, for trust building, right? 360 00:18:19,052 --> 00:18:21,392 Like you don't feel like your product partners are in a black 361 00:18:21,392 --> 00:18:22,832 box and they're not talking to you. 362 00:18:22,832 --> 00:18:23,402 Oh my goodness. 363 00:18:23,927 --> 00:18:27,047 It feels like you're on the same team, which is especially 364 00:18:27,047 --> 00:18:30,947 in a full remote Organization that is a very important thing. 365 00:18:31,107 --> 00:18:31,447 (laughing) 366 00:18:31,997 --> 00:18:33,167 Eddie: Yeah absolutely. 367 00:18:34,157 --> 00:18:37,567 Emily: I started in September, my first fully remote role. 368 00:18:37,717 --> 00:18:43,367 and I really appreciate now how much extra effort sometimes you have to put 369 00:18:43,367 --> 00:18:47,532 into showing and giving that visibility especially to your engineer teammates 370 00:18:47,660 --> 00:18:48,560 Eddie: Yeah, absolutely. 371 00:18:48,570 --> 00:18:49,380 It's trickier. 372 00:18:49,410 --> 00:18:55,470 I've been remote since 2015, so definitely there's a lot of tricky things when you're 373 00:18:55,475 --> 00:18:57,480 remote of like, how do I communicate? 374 00:18:57,510 --> 00:19:01,640 And create human connection when you're so far away and stuff. 375 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:03,725 Emily: And I think that's another thing that the SaaS tools 376 00:19:03,725 --> 00:19:04,895 right now are doing so well. 377 00:19:04,975 --> 00:19:07,495 I've seen probably like 10 different startups in the last 378 00:19:07,825 --> 00:19:11,375 six months that are like let's all have a coffee at the same time. 379 00:19:11,375 --> 00:19:12,815 Like the coffee bot on slack. 380 00:19:12,815 --> 00:19:14,705 Hey everybody, it's coffee chat time. 381 00:19:14,705 --> 00:19:17,975 And we're all gonna hop on our cameras and have a coffee chat It's just so 382 00:19:17,975 --> 00:19:22,455 fun to see like people coming up with answers to these things that like I would 383 00:19:22,455 --> 00:19:26,060 describe them as inconveniences a little bit to be honest with you, but they 384 00:19:26,060 --> 00:19:30,530 do bring, you know a smile of people's faces and they, I think they improve 385 00:19:30,890 --> 00:19:35,590 especially fully remote companies They definitely improve the quality of life. 386 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:38,910 Eddie: Like you said, there's definitely a ton of those and some 387 00:19:38,910 --> 00:19:40,500 of them operate better than others. 388 00:19:40,500 --> 00:19:44,520 But, I think the heart of all of them is in the right place of connecting people. 389 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:45,420 So that's cool. 390 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:46,320 Emily: Absolutely 391 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:47,150 (laughing) 392 00:19:47,205 --> 00:19:50,625 Eddie: As we wrap up here today, one thing we always like to do before the 393 00:19:50,625 --> 00:19:53,925 end is to just see if there's anything that you've been working on that you 394 00:19:53,925 --> 00:19:55,605 think might be helpful to the community. 395 00:19:55,655 --> 00:19:56,735 Anything you'd like to share, 396 00:19:57,260 --> 00:20:01,580 Emily: Yes, so I have recently, as of March stood up a product 397 00:20:01,580 --> 00:20:03,320 manager incubator program. 398 00:20:03,590 --> 00:20:06,620 So this is a program aimed at underrepresented 399 00:20:06,620 --> 00:20:08,570 backgrounds in technology. 400 00:20:08,630 --> 00:20:09,540 So non-men. 401 00:20:09,940 --> 00:20:10,240 Right? 402 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,580 So if you identify as not a man, hey, yeah, let's hang out. 403 00:20:13,970 --> 00:20:19,880 Um, and if you are not white, basically for lack of a better phrase right 404 00:20:20,030 --> 00:20:22,060 Eddie: Essentially if you are not me 405 00:20:22,060 --> 00:20:23,700 Emily: Not Eddie, Yeah. 406 00:20:23,700 --> 00:20:23,974 Eddie: You're It. 407 00:20:24,001 --> 00:20:26,701 Emily: I was looking at some of the big tech companies and they're 408 00:20:27,281 --> 00:20:31,301 diversity inclusion reports and the numbers are just still not great. 409 00:20:31,301 --> 00:20:34,631 So I'm trying to find like ways that I can help, especially in product 410 00:20:34,631 --> 00:20:38,451 management I've spent a lot of time being literally the only woman 411 00:20:38,451 --> 00:20:40,881 in a zoom meeting of 15 people. 412 00:20:41,131 --> 00:20:45,601 And it's 2022 at this point So I'm trying to do my little part to fix it. 413 00:20:46,031 --> 00:20:46,796 So right now. 414 00:20:46,796 --> 00:20:47,306 It's free. 415 00:20:47,306 --> 00:20:50,846 I'm not sure if it will always be free, but it will absolutely always be low cost. 416 00:20:50,846 --> 00:20:53,036 I can promise you that a hundred percent the point is 417 00:20:53,036 --> 00:20:54,956 that we're not charging $4,000. 418 00:20:55,551 --> 00:20:58,311 For product manager certificates that may or may not be impactful, 419 00:20:58,401 --> 00:21:01,761 but it's a free program right now for underrepresented folks in technology 420 00:21:01,921 --> 00:21:03,361 to learn how to be a product manager. 421 00:21:03,361 --> 00:21:05,851 And we do the whole product management life cycle. 422 00:21:05,851 --> 00:21:09,741 So we teach you how to do the things, but then we're actually applying those things. 423 00:21:09,741 --> 00:21:13,581 So we're building with no code tools and all of the members of the cohort 424 00:21:13,581 --> 00:21:17,226 are literally building a product at the end they're going to be able to 425 00:21:17,226 --> 00:21:20,916 chat with some really great product leaders, get some feedback on their 426 00:21:20,921 --> 00:21:24,246 product and how they built it and their techniques and their presentation skills. 427 00:21:24,251 --> 00:21:28,831 That's important too, get some really actionable feedback and then actually 428 00:21:28,831 --> 00:21:34,071 have not only a polished, beautiful presentation they also have a real product 429 00:21:34,071 --> 00:21:36,021 that they can show potential employers. 430 00:21:36,546 --> 00:21:40,491 And build some credibility that I have built a thing before I have experience 431 00:21:40,491 --> 00:21:46,281 you can hire me for this, you know product owner, APM, early career product manager 432 00:21:46,281 --> 00:21:51,381 role and allow hiring managers to just be more confident that the person they hire 433 00:21:51,381 --> 00:21:53,961 is gonna be able to land and keep up. 434 00:21:53,991 --> 00:21:54,951 That's all we're trying to do. 435 00:21:54,951 --> 00:21:55,191 Right. 436 00:21:55,191 --> 00:21:57,411 Cause that's the biggest issue for product managers. 437 00:21:57,631 --> 00:22:01,031 Especially in junior roles, early career roles is it's really easy to 438 00:22:01,031 --> 00:22:03,181 get over your head to get overwhelmed. 439 00:22:03,181 --> 00:22:06,356 People are so busy, they don't have time to mentor sometimes, which isn't 440 00:22:06,356 --> 00:22:08,066 great but it happens, totally happens. 441 00:22:08,066 --> 00:22:11,576 So giving them more skills so that they can land in these 442 00:22:11,581 --> 00:22:13,916 roles and be successful, right? 443 00:22:13,916 --> 00:22:16,286 Cause it's not just getting the job, it's staying in the 444 00:22:16,286 --> 00:22:17,576 job and staying in the career. 445 00:22:17,626 --> 00:22:19,006 I think it's been a big success. 446 00:22:19,011 --> 00:22:22,256 We've already had two out of our six people get new roles while 447 00:22:22,256 --> 00:22:24,261 they're in the program, where they haven't even finished yet. 448 00:22:24,261 --> 00:22:27,241 And we've got people who are getting a lot of traction on resumes and job 449 00:22:27,241 --> 00:22:31,081 applications and things like that And the products they're designing are so cool. 450 00:22:31,131 --> 00:22:35,641 I'm meeting with two women are building out a gifting suggestion service. 451 00:22:35,801 --> 00:22:37,901 It's so cool to watch them think about it. 452 00:22:37,901 --> 00:22:39,066 What would make that different? 453 00:22:39,071 --> 00:22:40,116 What would make that special? 454 00:22:40,116 --> 00:22:41,436 What would make people wanna use it. 455 00:22:41,736 --> 00:22:45,156 Actually go through it's really about going through those thought process. 456 00:22:45,166 --> 00:22:47,581 The product at the end of the day is fine, the important 457 00:22:47,581 --> 00:22:48,671 part is that they did the work. 458 00:22:48,671 --> 00:22:49,541 They put in the reps. 459 00:22:50,661 --> 00:22:53,631 It's kinda like running, you don't just sign up for a marathon without training. 460 00:22:53,781 --> 00:22:54,981 You've gotta do some training. 461 00:22:54,981 --> 00:22:57,956 And that's how I feel about product management as a product leader and 462 00:22:57,961 --> 00:23:01,526 as a former hiring manager, I used to hire a whole bunch of product folks. 463 00:23:01,806 --> 00:23:05,366 It's really important to be able to have some experience actually doing 464 00:23:05,366 --> 00:23:07,166 the work so you don't get overwhelmed. 465 00:23:07,166 --> 00:23:09,866 That's what I'm working on is called InTheLab Product Management. 466 00:23:10,481 --> 00:23:13,001 The website is InTheLabPM.com. 467 00:23:13,691 --> 00:23:17,921 I did get the.com label thumbs up Uh and we're just in the process of a pretty 468 00:23:17,921 --> 00:23:19,581 new rebrand with our great designer. 469 00:23:20,024 --> 00:23:23,144 If anyone out there knows someone who wants to get into product management 470 00:23:23,204 --> 00:23:27,034 from outside of tech, or even from inside of tech, if you're in a CS role or an 471 00:23:27,034 --> 00:23:29,674 account executive role or something like that, please, tell them to sign up. 472 00:23:29,674 --> 00:23:32,374 We're starting our next cohort in the fall. 473 00:23:32,644 --> 00:23:33,269 Very exciting 474 00:23:34,199 --> 00:23:34,829 Eddie: Awesome. 475 00:23:35,349 --> 00:23:38,889 You have a specific month that you're planning on starting? 476 00:23:38,944 --> 00:23:39,934 Emily: Oh yeah Great point. 477 00:23:40,154 --> 00:23:44,174 Just as a caveat here, the program is run by me and me, and I'm the 478 00:23:44,174 --> 00:23:45,914 staff of InTheLab Product Management. 479 00:23:45,914 --> 00:23:47,664 So I'm doing this all out of pocket. 480 00:23:47,669 --> 00:23:48,354 Bootstrapped. 481 00:23:48,354 --> 00:23:52,134 There's no money flowing anywhere except out of my out of my wallet 482 00:23:52,734 --> 00:23:53,784 Eddie: Out of your wallet 483 00:23:53,924 --> 00:23:56,684 Emily: We're trying to coordinate stuff for the next cohort right now. 484 00:23:56,954 --> 00:24:00,314 I am thinking the next cohort's going to kick off in the 485 00:24:00,314 --> 00:24:01,964 August, September timeframe. 486 00:24:01,964 --> 00:24:06,464 I'm hoping to time it so that it wraps by Thanksgiving because nobody 487 00:24:06,464 --> 00:24:09,874 wants to be dealing with this during the rush up to the holidays and then 488 00:24:09,874 --> 00:24:13,334 hopefully that cohort goes well, we'll be kicking another one off in January. 489 00:24:13,964 --> 00:24:15,614 But there's an open application. 490 00:24:15,614 --> 00:24:16,424 It's super easy. 491 00:24:16,424 --> 00:24:18,864 There's four fields that you have to fill out. 492 00:24:18,864 --> 00:24:21,774 So if you hear this and you're interested at all, please feel 493 00:24:21,774 --> 00:24:23,034 free to pop your name in there. 494 00:24:23,034 --> 00:24:26,829 And I am personally reviewing everybody's LinkedIns and we'll 495 00:24:26,844 --> 00:24:30,649 personally be reaching out to everybody, as we get towards a start time. 496 00:24:31,106 --> 00:24:32,636 Eddie: Thank you for joining us today, Emily. 497 00:24:32,636 --> 00:24:33,776 It's been a pleasure chatting. 498 00:24:34,281 --> 00:24:35,931 Emily: Thank you so much Eddie It's been great. 499 00:24:37,316 --> 00:24:39,836 Eddie: Thanks for joining us for Episode 7. 500 00:24:40,016 --> 00:24:43,096 "So Many Options to Learn" with Emily Patterson. 501 00:24:43,406 --> 00:24:48,396 You can find out more about Emily on her Twitter @epatt6. 502 00:24:49,076 --> 00:24:53,126 You can find links to everything we talked about in this episode, as well as a link 503 00:24:53,126 --> 00:24:55,106 to Emily's Twitter in the show notes. 504 00:24:55,796 --> 00:24:59,246 If you enjoyed this episode, help others discover it as well 505 00:24:59,246 --> 00:25:02,096 by rating and reviewing it in your favorite podcast directory. 506 00:25:02,426 --> 00:25:06,286 And following us on Twitter at @WebJoyFM. 507 00:25:06,866 --> 00:25:09,086 Thank you for listening and have a great day. 508 00:25:16,957 --> 00:25:19,337 Next episode of WebJoy. 509 00:25:20,542 --> 00:25:25,467 Grace: I think of designing my life as like a big experiment, a big experiment 510 00:25:25,472 --> 00:25:29,517 of seeing what brings me joy and what I like to do and what I'm good at. 511 00:25:29,757 --> 00:25:33,357 And just trying a lot of things out and testing stuff, because as 512 00:25:33,357 --> 00:25:37,307 a designer, or as myself, I used to feel like I need to be perfect. 513 00:25:37,312 --> 00:25:40,157 I need to wait for the perfect time I need to ask for permission. 514 00:25:40,157 --> 00:25:42,507 to, make sure everything's like pixel perfect. 515 00:25:42,507 --> 00:25:45,982 But then that really held me back from actually executing things. 516 00:25:46,032 --> 00:25:51,557 so I think of myself as having discovery and and just testing things out and seeing 517 00:25:51,557 --> 00:25:55,697 what I like the most and what I'm good at to see what I can make the most impact. 518 00:25:55,707 --> 00:25:59,517 it's also like having an infinite mindset of just seeing what 519 00:25:59,517 --> 00:26:00,807 works or what doesn't work. 520 00:26:00,967 --> 00:26:01,982 and iterating from there. 521 00:26:02,012 --> 00:26:05,042 keep improving instead of worrying about being perfect on the first try. 522 00:26:05,042 --> 00:26:09,032 So I kind of seeing designing my life as like designing a product and collecting 523 00:26:09,032 --> 00:26:12,032 data and using that to keep improving. 524 00:26:12,627 --> 00:26:15,837 And it's always fun to learn because I feel like when I'm learning, 525 00:26:15,837 --> 00:26:17,432 I'm growing and I'm improving. 526 00:26:17,432 --> 00:26:20,012 And so that feeling that excitement of learning new 527 00:26:20,012 --> 00:26:21,502 things is what keeps me going. 528 00:26:23,294 --> 00:26:26,134 Eddie: Like a Big Experiment" with Grace Ling.