0:00:05.4 VB: Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vickie Brett.

0:00:09.2 AS: I'm Amanda Selogie.

0:00:11.4 VB: We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.

0:00:20.7 AS: Each week we're gonna explore new topics, which are going to educate and empower others.

0:00:26.9 VB: And give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field.

0:00:33.9 AS: Welcome back friends.

0:00:37.3 VB: Hello.

0:00:39.4 AS: We are excited today to really touch on something that we've talked about a lot on the podcast, and that is how we can accommodate children within the general education classroom and just in any classroom. And focusing on some practical tips for you parents out there to suggest to your teams or for teachers out there, really wanting to focus on how we can better provide these inclusive environments, but not just offer suggestions, but really explain the why. Why behind kiddos who might appear they might have hidden disabilities, that it just seems like maybe they don't need help, but they really do. So we're really excited to have Jessica on the podcast. Welcome.

0:01:24.1 JW: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

0:01:25.0 AS: Can you give our listeners a little background about you? Introduce yourself and we'll get right into it?

0:01:33.2 JW: Sure. My name is Jessica Werner and I am the founder of North Shore Learning. And we are a team of consultants based in Minneapolis, but we work with schools all over the world, and we're starting to work with parents as well. Basically what we do is we work one-on-one with teachers to help make sure they feel confident in serving the needs of all of their students. And we're starting, as I said, to do a little parent work as well because we're realizing when parents are finding out that their own child perhaps needs an IEP or a 504, they're not even there yet. They know something's going on that needs to be addressed. There's not a lot of help in that space to kind of guide parents. And I know that because we are the parents to a wonderful 9-year-old boy who ended up needing an IEP when he was four [laughter]

0:02:30.0 AS: Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah.

0:02:32.1 JW: Yep. And my husband and I are both longtime educators, but even when it came time for us to try and figure out how we were gonna approach the whole process, we didn't know what to do because unless you're trained in special Ed, you aren't used to it. You aren't used to the systems, you definitely don't know the law and you don't even know what things you can ask for. So it's been really interesting for the past four years, or five years since he got his first IEP to navigate the world as a parent. And then working with general Ed teachers, like the teacher he'll have starting next week in school who are also not special education trained. But they're finding more and more kids in their classes need accommodation, and we're not just talking about the kids like my son who they have an IEP.

0:03:20.6 AS: Have an actual IEP. Right.

0:03:22.2 JW: They have a file of four. We are seeing more and more kids presenting with learning challenges. And the majority of them have no documentation. So we're at this interesting point in education, were all teachers. All teachers, no matter what you do. No matter what your specialty was, there is a need to learn more about accommodating all students as well.

0:03:45.9 AS: And we see that with even typically some of these accommodations that we've been talking about over the last couple weeks, where a child may have a central auditory processing disorder and the use of a microphone and speaker for the teacher not only helps that child, but helps several other children, just with the voice and being able to kind of hear very clearly what the teacher is saying. And that's more of the higher end kind of assistive technology but what we were excited to have you on is really to speak more to how those accommodations, I mean, it seems kind of scary. I think a lot of times teachers are fearful or it's because they don't know. And so then we go down this laundry list of accommodations, and if you don't ask the teacher, what is your expectation or what is your definition of this accommodation? Because they could have something completely different in their mind than what we truly wholly feel is needed. And that's our biggest struggle, is ensuring that the accommodations are appropriately implemented, not just given, and just kind of thrown out there and with no direction or guidance.

0:05:00.3 JW: Right. And unfortunately that happens too often, and it's because it's just the, we assume that people who are trained educators have some kind of background in everything. The truth is they have a little bit of background in everything, but a lot of background in certain things.

0:05:15.2 AS: Yeah.

0:05:16.3 JW: And what we're realizing, and I think higher Ed is realizing is there needs to be more training for modifications and combinations. We're not there yet, though. So in the meantime, absolutely. I see this all the time. I'll work with the teacher and I'll say, let's talk about this child, and we'll go through some of the things that are listed in the plan and their understanding of what it is may not match their understanding of how to implement it, when to implement it, how often to implement it. And so, yeah. I think just walking away from assuming, and this goes for school leaders as well, assuming that your teachers, they can take it and run with it. This is why we come into schools and we work one-on-one with teachers and in grade level teams to say, no, let's figure out what this is actually gonna look like for you in your class with this student. And it's usually not just for one student. We've got like a handful. But what we're finding too, that I think is good news, just some of these adaptations that we're making, like the microphone, for example.

0:06:19.6 AS: Yeah.

0:06:21.0 JW: They really are good for everybody anyway [chuckle]

0:06:25.2 AS: Yap.

0:06:26.4 JW: So many of the ADHD accommodations I suggest, or that are written into plans, graphic organizers doing one thing at a time, chunking lessons. This is good for everybody's brain. And it's kind of an interesting time to think about this because, and we have a few neuroscientists on my consulting team. The neuroscience is coming back in real time about how the brain learns and how it adjusts, and how it's structured. So we're seeing that these things that we thought were for a special group of students are really actually good for everybody anyway.

0:07:00.6 AS: I was gonna say we wish that most teachers would just implement a lot of these strategies if they're taught it. But we do get some of those teachers who are very regular and strict about like, this is the way I do things. I'm not gonna change for these other students. What would you say to those teachers on like, why it's really important to consider alternatives? That there's not just one way to do it.

0:07:23.4 JW: Yeah. Well, I think a lot of these teachers, 'cause I feel like I know this crowd [laughter], we work with a lot of people. We work with those who are super open-minded. Tell us how we can help. We'll try everything. We work with a lot of people who, are still thinking, well, this worked in 1995 and there's no reason it shouldn't work today. What is really driving the urgency to try new things are the students themselves. Because when needs aren't met, it can come out presenting in behaviors. And the behaviors are really difficult right now. It's, they were ramping up anyway. And then the pandemic years kind of, we've seen a big shift in higher student behaviors and behavioral challenges post pandemic. A lot of this I see being attributed to the students, they aren't learning in the best way possible for them. And so they're in class, they're bored or they don't understand. And for my son, if he is bored or if he doesn't understand, his brain is gonna find a way to entertain him or to help him regulate.

0:08:31.9 JW: And so for him, it looks like behaviors. And so if you weren't keen on the accommodation, when you have several students in your class who are presenting with challenging behaviors. It gives you that urgency that maybe I should try something new. And that's why a lot of our current school partners are schools that, they're not schools that have seen big challenges in the past. They're not schools that have seen kids with high needs. We work in a lot of private and independent schools, but there are so many kids these days. There's so many kids. That we can't say not in my class or not in my school.

0:09:08.3 JW: And so when we work with teachers, if we're working with somebody who's a little hesitant, usually it just takes being able to implement something, see it work, realize it actually takes work off your plate [chuckle] when you don't have to repeat yourself, when you don't have to reteach, when you don't have to solve a behavior issue. But no, it's tricky. And it really takes, I mean, I hate to say it, but it takes that individual teacher either having to have the self-awareness to know that it's time to change or it needs to come from the top. And this is the way we do things now in the school. This is how we teach and we need to adhere to it.

0:09:44.0 AS: Yeah. Absolutely. And I think the top down can be most effective and help somebody realize that they don't have the self-awareness if they're being provided with the training.

0:09:54.2 JW: Right.

0:09:54.7 AS: But that's what we're seeing, especially as these kiddos that were babies or were being born during the pandemic. They are getting to, TK, kindergarten, first grade. And I feel like a lot of teachers are seeing behaviors because those kiddos were maybe, one and a half two and they maybe didn't get a chance to go to a preschool setting and have those early kind of, let's sit at the rug moment and how to regulate their bodies because of what we went through. I'm curious to kind of hear some of the strategies, or if you were at an IEP meeting and you were going to explain one of these strategies. How do you explain it so that both the teacher and parent kind of understood the expectation in the classroom of how it's to be implemented?

0:10:42.9 JW: I like talking about strategies in terms of the brain. And again, this is why I like threading in the neuroscience because it's really explanatory. It's not this child won't do something. This is what's happening with this child's brain. And he or she or they can't do it. And this is why I get really excited about threading neuroscience. And it's hard to argue with. [laughter] and a lot of times with our teachers, the way we train teachers, before we even start talking about working with kids, we go through a lot of the same strategies with the teachers first.

0:11:17.6 AS: Oh, I love that.

0:11:19.0 JW: Especially when it comes to like understanding your own executive function deficits. We do a full half day of our full day training is just helping the teachers kind of develop the awareness around their own executive function. And then it really helps create empathy when we're talking about the students as well, because we remember, oh, sometimes I have a problem with task initiation and I'm a grownup.

0:11:40.7 AS: Right. Right.

0:11:41.0 JW: So yeah. Trying to really come at... We come at it from the angle of empathy because we know. So teaching right now is really, really hard. It's really, really hard. It's not getting easier. We're not going back to 1990 or ever. We are full stream ahead with a whole new population of learners. So empathy and understanding are really core part of the practice. And then threading in the science and explaining how new techniques are gonna benefit everybody. So I'll give you an example. One of the things we see is how much classroom environment matters. More than we've ever realized how it can really overstimulate the brain.

0:12:24.9 AS: Yes.

0:12:26.0 JW: How when work is presented to students, if you flash, a slide on the board that has a paragraph on it, or you hand them a paper full of writing. It's really hard for some kids to know where to start and to keep track of their own space. It's just, it's tricky. And we find though, when we, and that is seen as a pretty common ADHD accommodation. So you show one piece, you work on one thing at a time. But when teachers start using that in their school, in their classes, they're saying, oh, a lot of kids like this [laughter] A lot of kids like this. And this is just interesting. And I think we're still learning about all the ways our post pandemic students are presented. Because I was in a school last year and it was a first grade class and the teacher was having a really hard time, this is like fall, so mid-October. She said, Jessica, I think a lot of my students have learning disabilities. They're in first grade, they haven't been diagnosed. And so, we talked about that and we talked about some overall strategies she could use. And then I came back a few months later and she said, okay, you won't believe this but the kids, I thought they had learning disabilities, but what I found out is when they had their hearing and eye exams that half my kids have a visual impairment.

0:13:51.9 AS: Wow.

0:13:52.5 JW: Half my kids need glasses. And I thought, that's so interesting. Because, it wasn't even something that was on her radar, but it was.

0:14:00.1 AS: Totally.

0:14:01.4 JW: It was so many of her students. And fortunately she had already started presenting material and chunking material and ended up helping anyway. But, here, sometimes even the things we think are an issue, it's something else. So it's just, I think it goes to show that being open-minded about whoever's sitting in front of you, whichever student, whatever you're seeing, always asking yourself, or realizing I'm seeing the tip of the iceberg. Whatever I see, whatever I think I know is the tip of the iceberg.

0:14:33.3 AS: Right.

0:14:34.3 JW: There will be more. And how can I help meet that student need no matter who it is?

0:14:36.8 AS: Right. And unfortunately, I think sometimes even faced with like the actual information, so that picture of what's under the water, we do see some teachers that still are like, well, I know how this kid is functioning in the classroom, and the comment we get so often is, but they can do it. The other day they did it. So if they're not doing it tomorrow, it's because they choose not to. And that's the hurdle that is somewhat the hardest for us to face with these teachers. It is like the parents are explaining, this is all the external stuff. The school psychologist might be explaining, here's all the reasons. The team might be talking about here's why we're doing all these accommodations. But then when it comes down to it, the teacher just sees the child as being defiant for, and we're talking about.

0:15:26.4 JW: Lazy.

0:15:27.3 AS: Like middle school and high school students who.

0:15:30.8 JW: Exactly right. Yeah.

0:15:31.0 AS: Are being described as being aggressive or defiant when they're just trying to express their emotions and they're trying to say like, I need help. And you're basically telling me that I don't need help? So of course a teenager is gonna appear maybe defiant, but they're not really being defiant. They're literally just doing their best. And I think that's where it's like, okay, well then how do you get that teacher to understand it's not defiant?

0:16:00.4 JW: Yeah. It's interesting with middle school and high school, because these are the age groups we're doing, we're being asked to do a lot of executive function work with schools. Because those things you said, task initiation, finishing tasks, sometimes the inability to do it because the brain won't let you, it ends up presenting as apathy or anger or defiant. I don't have any silver bullets for changing people's mindset and practice. But I will say the schools who are thinking about their teachers and they're thinking about the situations that you're describing and they're leaning into it with support, with outside support like us or with internal coaching or just making sure those teachers have support to be able to implement is really important. Because a lot of times we ask teachers to do new things and figure it out on the fly or we assume it's gonna be okay.

0:17:00.6 JW: But really, I would say making sure you're checking up, you're doing what you can to provide the supports the teachers need. And sometimes they don't know what they are. Which is why I always coaching. 'cause Coaching just meets you wherever you're at and helps you. But I find that there's a lot more willingness to try new things when the teachers know that there's somebody they can ask questions of or that they're not going to be penalized if they don't do it correctly the first time. So I guess that would be my advice for schools. And just understanding too, we talk about it in the inclusion community. A lot of, sometimes teachers push back and it's not because of their own apathy or defiance, but it's fear. It's fear based. It's fear that. I'm not gonna be able to give this child what they need or I should know how to do this and I can't. Or I've been teaching for 40 years. Why isn't this working anymore? And again, just kind of viewing it through the ends of empathy. And here's how we're gonna step up and support you. 'cause We know this is hard.

0:18:07.2 AS: I think it is a challenge with some of our kiddos that don't have, ADHD written on their foreheads. We will try to use, I know that I need to set 15 reminders on my phone just to, change the laundry, do this, do that. And we try to explain that to teams when we're simply asking for the child to be allowed to use their phone or their calendaring system on their phone or reminders or things like that. And sometimes you'll get people go, oh yeah, well I need to do that as well. And they don't see that as an accommodation. They just see that as something that is acceptable in society and that's what people do, but they don't really understand, the functionality. Some people will not be able to remember to take their medication at 10:00 AM but for that reminder, that comes off on the phone.

0:18:58.7 AS: And I think it's somewhat similar to, a vision impairment and wearing glasses that is a disability. But because so many people wear glasses, it's kind of just woven into our society. And that is the challenge that we have and why we were excited to have you on. And I think that the recommendation of kind of leading with empathy and really just trying to get the teacher to understand that this child has a disability and this is the function of the accommodation. I can already see how the way I approach it in an IEP will be different. Having that mentality. It's been somewhat similar to your approach, but now I can see how I can refine it. So that we really can get them to understand. And some of the best people have been people, the OT pathologist who's like, yeah, my child has ADHD, so I know that this is gonna work [laughter]

0:19:54.0 AS: And then we follow their lead which is great, but not everyone is going to A, share that information and B, have a real understanding that while it may be the same diagnoses, it may present differently in different children. I think that's also a challenge that we have to overcome. ADA being presented in a female is different than a male, especially when they're younger. We see a lot of outward behaviors from young boys and we see that girls tend to internalize it and anxiety manifesting because of everything that's happening in their mind. If parents wanted to reach out to you or administrators for your training, 'cause you've mentioned it how can they reach out to you?

0:20:35.1 JW: Yes. I would love to hear from anybody who's interested. We are northshorelearning.org and my email is jess.northshore@gmail.com. And I have just one last little anecdote to share.

0:20:53.0 AS: Yes, please.

0:20:54.1 JW: Because you mentioned anxiety... Oh my gosh. The anxiety epidemic. We're seeing so much presenting in classrooms. And again, this is with all kids. This isn't just with.

0:21:04.0 AS: Yeah. Yeah.

0:21:08.6 JW: Yeah. And I just wanna give the example of my other child. So.

0:21:11.2 AS: Yes.

0:21:12.2 JW: My 12-year-old is an amazing human. She's the kid who's always on time to class. She answers every question she gets her work done. She's a great student. Well, last year she was diagnosed and it was a surprise to us because again, we're not all experts in mental health or special education.

0:21:33.6 AS: Right. Right, yeah.

0:21:34.7 JW: So we don't know any better, but in how it manifests. Yeah. What we saw is at home, some pension seeking things she was doing her therapist actually told us, no, those are OCD compulsions.

0:21:51.2 AS: Oh, really?

0:21:52.4 JW: So here we were again, two educators. We already have a child who has special needs. We think we have a handle on something, and we're told, no, your daughter actually has this diagnosis that you had no idea. And some of the things we were seeing, and we were seeing them play out while she was doing her homework. And we were seeing things we thought, oh, she's always on time and she'll never be late. And these are such great personal qualities. Well, they might be, but they're also a result of severe anxiety in our daughter.

0:22:23.8 AS: Oh, Right.

0:22:24.7 JW: And so when we started looking deeper, we weren't realizing that the reason she was coming home with stomach aches after school is because she was feeling these things all day long. And we ended up going through the process to have a 504 written for her when we went to her teachers to share it with them. Every single one was very surprised.

0:22:49.6 AS: Oh, I'm sure. Yeah.

0:22:52.6 JW: Like really? And accommodations. We were asking for we're not ones you would've thought like give her, let her take tests on her own. Give her longer, don't give her time test. And I think this tells us [chuckle] or it told us. Anyway, again, it's that iceberg. What we think we see And what we think we understand about this entire class of kids and even things we attribute to positive things. If they're rooted in anxiety which they may be, they could be really detrimental so to our students. So again, things that some kids are asking for, not having time tests, et cetera. Really, it would be so good for everybody if we started just switching up a few of the things we do.

0:23:39.2 AS: I know. I know. You are preaching to the choir girlfriend. I mean, just there, we really thought that there would be a renaissance of sorts or reset, if you will, after the pandemic. And that we were really, really hopeful. And we talked about that on the podcast and we've actually just seen the opposite where it's just this like, just trying to beat down the reading, writing, and arithmetic of the '50S, which is really unfortunate because these kiddos, it's not going to fit. It is not going to fit and it's gonna make things worse. And so, I really thank you for sharing that because it really points and goes to the example that I had given about, girls internalizing.

0:24:22.2 JW: Yep. Yeah.

0:24:23.7 AS: And how, you'll be on time. That's a great quality. But it's like, not if it's rooted in anxiety and you're able to catch it.

0:24:31.1 JW: Yeah. Especially if you're telling the child like, oh, you're always so good. You're honest, you never have to worry about you, and how many times have teachers told students that.

0:24:40.1 AS: That's true.

0:24:40.2 JW: So then the Internal even more like, oh my gosh.

0:24:42.7 AS: Internalizing.

0:24:42.8 JW: I can never deviate from this.

0:24:46.7 AS: Yeah. And then even if the language that we're using with these kids is very important.

0:24:51.7 JW: Well, I don't think you're wrong. I think there still will be a renaissance. I think it's gonna happen slowly. I think it's gonna be a trickle. And I think just knowing for the schools and the parents families that you serve, that sometimes they just need, they need to know who to ask. They need to know who can support them. They need to know. That's great. You just gave me more to do. I know it feels like more to do, but how do I do this? Or how do I ask my teachers to do this? And just knowing that there are resources out there to help in this exact way.

0:25:23.0 AS: Jessica, thank you so much for your time. Please, listeners, if you have any other questions, please reach out to Jessica. We'll have her email in the show notes. And yeah, this fits in so perfectly with what we've been talking about. So we really appreciate you because we have been moving towards trying to give people plans of action. And this is such a wonderful one. Listeners, we'll talk to you next week. Bye.