Firstly, who are you?

Because I think it's an

important part because you

are in the area that we,

and the space we operate in.

You're kind of a big deal

and you are one of the

innovators in this space to,

to pull to where it is now.

I would love to

be known as the

godfather

of passive house.

So you, uh, so

Harley is the godfather

of passive house.

Is it the fourth certified

building in Australia?

Well, at the time.

There were no passive houses

when I was building mine.

None.

I wanted to be the first,

but I just got beaten

right at the post there.

The dawn.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

So,

so your, your

background is not you are

in public service for a

while or a consultant?

So I, I, I

trained as an engineer.

Yeah.

Okay.

so before I, Went into the,

the construction industry.

I was a public service.

I was in Canberra.

I was working for the,

well, you could've

just said you're in

Canberra and we just assumed

that you're in public service.

Everyone there

is a public servant.

Yeah.

Uh, a fat cat.

Yeah.

I was one of those fat cats.

Yeah.

What's a fat

cat?

You know

what a fat cat is?

No, no idea.

It's a public servant who,

who has a really easy job.

They're paid well.

They don't do a lot of work.

But look, I did a lot of work.

But in every, in

every public services.

I work so hard.

I work from nine

to five.

Yeah.

I, I know, I know a lot

of public servants in

Canberra, so I'm not gonna

cast aspersions of anyone.

But I was

highly ambitious.

I was working for

the Department of

Defense at the time.

I liked the work, but then

something changed my path.

It, it happens to us all.

Sometimes I, I don't

know, maybe you guys did.

We literally

just had this

conversation with our

guests beforehand that

was exactly like this.

So carry on.

This is super interesting.

so I was, like

a project manager.

Working in a, a team with

software developers complete

opposite of what you do in

the building industry, right.

But it was, it was

a team environment.

It was about getting stuff

done, having processes in

place, optimizing things.

So I really loved that job.

But then, I, opportunity

came up where I, I

could build a house.

Now this, it is rare

these days that people

can actually build houses

'cause they're so expensive.

But at the time,

it was affordable.

I bought, bought land and.

From the start, I wanted

to build something

very comfortable.

'cause I, I'd grown

up in a really, really

badly insulated house.

Were you

always in Canberra?

Uh, I've

been here 45 years.

I was not born here.

Yeah.

I came from a, a country,

uh, that was very, I

had a very nice weather.

It was probably like 20

to 28 degrees year round.

It's uh, it's Vietnam, right?

Yeah.

Coastal Vietnam.

Uh, came here after

whereabouts in

Vietnam, in the coast.

So it was,

it's in a central part.

It as a small fishing village.

in, and I don't remember it.

I left it when I was

three, but I think my DNA

remembers it that, that

you can actually live

in a, in a warm,

comfortable climate.

I was

born in a warm,

comfortable climate.

I want that.

I want that.

And when I came here,

I came to Canberra.

Warm,

comfortable climate

Canberra in the middle

of a winter as a refugee

to settle in Canberra

in the middle of winter.

I mean, if I, if I was

an older person that I

would've said, send me back.

It's torture.

Send me back.

Right?

And

Yeah.

And we lived in a house,

a typical Canberra

house, brick veneer.

Yeah, these days would

be considered a zero

star energy rated house.

Zero star filled with

Mr. Fluffy insulation.

Probably filled

with Mr. Fluffy insulation.

No, no, no, no, no insulation.

Okay.

What's Mr.

Fluffy?

Just like a

blowing insulation.

No, Mr. Fluffy, this is,

I don't know if we can,

I mean we can, 'cause

everyone knows, but it's

a Mr. Fluffy insulation

used to spray in asbestos.

Oh, I didn't?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Ridden, uh,

fiber insulation.

It's that, is that the

stuff that had in the Wizard

of Oz that they used to spray

to make it look like snow?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Pretty much.

Pretty much.

Yeah.

So about a thousand Canberra

houses had that sprayed

into their roofs and it cost

massive

government buyback.

Oh yeah.

Anyway,

was that a government

incentive at the time?

Yeah.

So, I eventually, I,

I did buy a house, our

very first house, and it

was an old house, about

50 years old, And also

similar levels of comfort.

Similar levels of comfort.

You, you buy whatever

you can afford.

Uh, as a first home

buyer, you, you just buy

whatever you can afford.

You can't, as a first

house, buy your dream house.

No.

So we only had a $250,000.

I mean, that, that was the

amount that, that we, we

could borrow from the bank.

And that was enough

to buy a house.

In the old days, this

is going back Wow.

Uh, a few years.

And that house was, I'd say.

Even more uncomfortable

than the house that I,

the very first house

that, that I moved to.

It had so many air leaks,

evaporative, cooling

very little insulation.

And all the while I

was thinking it's,

this is not right.

This doesn't feel right.

And everybody else's

house was the same.

I thought, I can't stand this.

I'm going to.

Look for a job in Brisbane to

escape the Canberra weather.

And every winter I would

go on to, seek.com and

look, look for work.

so then we, uh, had the

opportunity to actually

buy a block of land and

build a house that was

unlike any of these rubbish

houses in Australia.

And I've been to

display homes.

I've, I've been

to a lot of these.

Show houses that are

considered state of the art

and they look beautiful.

They've got our, you

know, our fresco dining.

They've got large windows,

all the latest kinds of tiles

and finishes, and yet they're

all, they're all the same.

They're all built like tents.

So for my house, I, I went

on the internet and at the

time, passive house was

not a, was not a thing.

This is going back.

12 years ago, this

passive house was not a

thing in Australia yet.

The Passive House Association,

I don't think it even had

started, or if it did,

it was in its infancy.

There were no passive house

consultants back then.

There were no passive

house builders.

No one was talking about this.

There was the usual

solar passive stuff.

Mm-hmm.

Plenty of that.

I wanted something

that was guaranteed.

I didn't, didn't want

to do something that

was, that might work.

So I went on the internet.

As you do, you do your

research, you Google it, and

there's a massive amount of

open source information from

the passive house institute

overseas in in Germany.

Right?

I found all this information

and you at first glance I

thought, ah, you gotta build

like one meter thick walls.

Nah, not for me.

I just ignored it.

Then I circled back and then

I read it closely and it

turns out you don't have to

build a one meter thick wall.

You build the walls

to suit your climate,

it's climate dependent.

And that's when the

light bulb went off.

Ah, passive house.

We can build it to suit the

Canberra climate and it's

gonna be as comfortable as

any other house, any other

passive house in the world.

And you've got

a perfect, well, in my

opinion, I've always thought

that there's some amazing

opportunities to branch into

Canberra because you have

incredibly cold winters.

And very hot summers,

you've got these massive

swings in temperature.

It can go from like minus

five to plus 45, and your

buildings need to stay

within that 20 to 25 degrees.

So I am curious to understand

what was the wall buildups

that you needed to achieve

certification in Canberra?

Yeah.

Well, yeah.

Canberra is cold.

Minus is eight is the coldest.

I, I remember.

Mm. What mine is eight.

Get eight cold.

Cold, man.

Mine is

eight.

And it's clear like

you, you're, yeah.

Those drafts in those

leaky house must just,

that would be like blowing

an ice machine on you.

it's next level.

Yeah.

It's, and the gas heater is,

is blowing hot air, ducted.

Gas heating is blowing

hot air onto your head, so

your head's really hot and

your feet are freezing.

and the summers.

Yes, they are.

I, I remember I think

47 degrees or something,

and it's just,

but that's, oh, that's

just part of life there.

That's just how it is.

That's

the probably common

thought that that's how it is.

And, and people are living

in, in uninsulated houses

in that kind of climate.

And so they are

solely dependent on

the heater being on.

And them being right

in front of the heater.

'cause the heater cannot

heat the whole house.

You've gotta be

right in front of it.

Yeah.

It's

like my house

at home in the moment.

Like it was only five degrees

this morning, but the gas

heater heats the living room.

You step into the hallway

and you're like, oh fuck.

Get back in.

And, but then you go back

into that room and it's so hot

that you can't stay in that

room because it's too hot.

So you kind of like

turn the heater off.

It gets cool now.

Oh, gotta get that

back on and, yeah.

And and the heat

doesn't stay though.

No.

It, it goes in two minutes.

It, you turn it gone

turn off and it's gone.

and like heat is

not just heat, it's, there's

a quality to good heat.

Like it's good and bad heat.

Yeah.

Good heat is, it's

like, like a warm hug.

You don't even notice

that sort of thing.

You Yeah.

It's like, like every

surface of the room is

the same temperature.

You just walk in, it's like

you're back in the womb.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

That, that's the

heat that I wanted.

Do you know what?

There's a really great

marketing opportunity.

What does passive

house feel like?

Being

back in the

feels like being back.

I ask my child, it's doing

like any day now back.

Well, because

it, because it's

consistent heat, right?

Because look, so I was

down in Tazzie last week

at mad Grady's Place, open

house, uh, and I was down

there with Justin and a

few of the other sort of

usual suspects down there.

And I don't live in a

passive house, but I've

been in plenty Right?

Stayed over in plenty of

passive houses before.

Good friends of ours who

we've brought up in kind's,

got a passive house like I,

you can't explain what it's

like to be in a passive house.

You've gotta feel it

for yourself and you

obviously live in it.

So how does it feel now?

I mean, you probably, you've

been in there for a long

time, like one of the first

passive houses in Australia,

comparing your lived in

experience now to what it

was when you were a kid and

even in your first home.

Like, can you explain

some of the differences?

Like do you get sick much?

Do you, like,

how do you sleep?

Like all of those things.

How has improved

your lifestyle?

How has improved your life?

Yeah.

Uh, it's, it's

unbelievably good.

I feel so privileged to be

able to live in that house.

And when, when we go on

holidays, we, uh, like we,

we go to the beach, like

Canberra's, three hours

from, from the ocean.

When you go to the beach,

you, uh, you book into

a, an Airbnb or someone's

house and you stay and

then, you then appreciate,

oh, home feels so good.

'cause this house here is.

Drafty and cold, and you have

to have the fireplace going.

so the house thermally

it is fantastic.

it's always warm with without

the heater, but we, we do

use the heater on on days

where you have long runs of

cold days without the sun.

It, it is, it's solely driven.

You need that sunlight

to keep it warm.

But we, you're not hearing

the heater 'cause it's on the

lower setting and it's only

on for a couple of hours.

Right.

So the difference between

having a house that's

naturally warm compared to

one that's relying on this air

being forced into every room.

your eyes don't dry out.

it's almost

like it's so cold.

And then the heat is so

good from the heater, but

it's still so uncomfortable.

But you, you're

not comfortable.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I find that's

what I'm

experiencing in the moment.

Like, you crave the

warmth, but you go in

there, but you just icky.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But in a passive house,

it's the opposite.

Icky.

It's, it's, it's just shorts.

T-shirts.

It's short.

You're wearing summer

clothes when it's winter.

At night though, I must say

it can be a. Ironically,

a bit too warm sometimes.

Yeah.

In, uh, even in the,

the colder season.

What is your house at?

What's that?

What house, what degree

does your house sit at?

Uh, it's mostly

20 degrees, but like the

cold's ever been by 18

degrees without the heater,

that's still warm ever in

during winter, right?

Like, like we live in a

shitty 1970s uninsulated

home at the moment.

And I actually quite like

going to bed 'cause we've

got two dunas on and you,

you're snuggled in and I

actually really like, like

getting right under the duna.

But I've been up to

our friend's house in

Kit a few times during

the middle of winter.

And you're in a,

you've got a sheet on.

And I'm like, this is,

this feels weird right now.

'cause my body's so used

to wanting to, yeah.

Be really tucked

up in the blanket.

I'm so excited for mine.

I, I, I, agree

that, that it feels good to

have weight on your body.

Like you need a thick,

that weight, that feeling

of being wrapped up, like,

uh, you know, back in

the womb, like you said,

like back in the womb.

Well, when the babies are

born, there's a, there's

a term when you wrap 'em

up with a cloth swaddling.

Yeah.

Well, that, yeah.

Yeah.

Like a burrito.

That, that's it.

and so in the bedroom,

sometimes we keep the

blind, the external blinds

closed during the colder

seasons to keep that room

colder, to make it about,

you know, 18 degrees or so.

Interesting.

So you actually Yeah, that's

actually such a, I'm trying

to make my

house colder when, yeah.

Yeah.

and so that's your

first passive house.

Yes.

And at that point then,

because how I know you is

Logic House Windows were you.

In the window industry

at that point then?

Or was it them building

your first passive house?

You're like, Hey, what windows

do you have in your house?

PVC German made

windows at the time.

I imported those windows,

so I've got a local company

to import those windows.

Yeah, yeah.

So I had to build, to

build the house, but I

was heavily involved in

getting everything together.

And was your

builder on board?

well, one of

them was German heritage.

because I'm, I'm like,

this was how, how long ago?

2000.

Uh, so it's,

it's 12 years ago.

Yeah.

2015

so we got

the certification

2014 got certified.

So the building started

around about 20 12, 20 13.

Yeah.

And then at that point

you've finished,

you're like, Hmm, I

can import windows.

so just the process

of getting the windows,

you, you have to look

around and there's a lot of

rubbish windows out there.

Okay.

A lot of rubbish windows.

And what did

define as rubbish?

This is a good question.

Aluminum windows.

so before I built that Pacif

Pacif house, I was living

in a, a house that had steel

casement windows, single

glaze, really bad windows.

And admittedly at that

time, I, I retrofitted,

I took those windows

and put in new windows.

Yeah.

And I was so

uneducated back then.

I took out steel, single

glazed windows and put in

double glazed thick aluminum,

non thermally broken windows.

Yeah.

I was trying to

fix a condensation problem

by replacing windows

with double glazing.

'cause I thought

double glazings,

they've gotta be good.

Yeah.

And you know what?

The condensation

didn't go away.

Yep, yep.

And, and probably worse

'cause if, 'cause aluminum's

a much bigger conductor

of heat energy than steel.

I think the mold

got worse, the frames got

more moldy than the steel.

And that point, I, I said

I've, next time I've gotta

actually do things properly.

Yeah.

And dig into the signs,

do things properly.

And so when I did the

passive house and those

PVC windows, there's no

condensation anymore.

and then that passive

house, you know, I built

this passive house without

ever going into one.

I didn't know what

I was getting into.

That was like my

first passive house.

Wow.

And

there for the Yeah,

but he built one for himself.

Yeah.

No, this

is what I'm crazy.

Yeah, I know.

But this is what I'm saying,

like, I've got a comment here

and I'll get to it quickly

before you keep going.

It's like what we need

to understand quickly

is like Harley paved the

way for what we do now.

Yeah.

Like he made, he made all

the mistakes so we can

have our life very easy

in the way we build now.

We still look like we're

at the front creating all

these new amazing things.

The reality is Harley had

to do it for us first.

Father

Harley.

Yeah.

yeah.

In, in a way.

Yeah.

I, couldn't really follow

someone else locally.

I mean, there were lots of

overseas examples, but the.

It's different when

you build products.

When you build stuff overseas,

the products are different.

The, the wall build up, build

ups different, but that, that

first moment when I, when I

realized the, we had all the

windows in and everything

was closed up, and you walk

in and it's cold outside

and it's so nice inside and

everyone remembers their

first time in a passive house.

I think living in one

or being, being one.

Being in one.

Do you remember

your first time?

It's

quiet.

I can remember actually.

It's not my first time.

What I remember distinctly

was we had just.

Wrapped the hole outside.

We had put the roof on,

we inside it, put our in

tall windows were in and

we are walking around in

shorts and t-shirts in the

middle of winter and it's

fucking freezing outside.

And I just come

back from Thailand.

So I was like, this

is beautiful weather.

Back to reality of cold.

And then I'm like,

this works instantly.

I remember doing a blower

door test that next

week and being like, oh

my God, this actually.

Thi this isn't some made

up thing that's woo woo.

And this,

and this is before

that the people have

been living in the house.

Yeah.

This is just drink

None of the, the, the

construction site's more

comfortable than my own home.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah.

So imagine that happening

to you and then, then you

think, wow, this, once

people realize that this

is possible, everyone's

gonna want one of these.

Mm-hmm.

Everyone's gonna want

a passive house and.

the job that I was doing

at the time I was in public

service, I was working

for a defense and it

was, it was a noble job.

The thing that it was

classified, but the things

we were doing, they were

making a difference.

And yet I thought getting

into the building industry

to build pacif houses

was a better cause.

Wow.

It's almost

defense

like, it's ironic.

It's, I actually

love to

know what you were

doing.

Yeah.

It's actually ironic,

like it was defense.

You're now defending the

home from the outside,

from inside.

It was, it was

defense intelligence.

Okay.

So, but it was, I

really wanna know.

Carry on, carry on.

Can't talk about it.

but I on record anyway.

I, I quit that job.

it was a permanent job.

You, you don't get fired

as a public servant unless

I don't let break the law.

Right.

And, and that's, that's

still argumentative.

Yeah.

So I, I, I had a cushy job

and I, I thought this, do

I want to spend the rest

of my life doing this?

Even though it was,

it was a good cause.

I thought, this is a

golden opportunity.

Let's change careers.

Let's do something

completely different.

So I, I changed, I quit and

then I did what I thought

would be the good place to

start as a consultant, as

a passive first consultant.

I got qualified as a passive

house consultant, not by

doing any course or any exam.

I, there's a pathway to

get qualified by doing a

passive house, building a

passive house, and doing

all the calculations

for the PPP and getting

that building certified.

I. Interesting.

So I did So

you, as a trades

person, we can do that,

but you can do that

as a designer as well.

Exactly, yeah.

Which is

a better method

in my opinion after Yeah.

Wet, go down that

path anymore.

But yes, I'd argue that

uh, doing an exam that

takes whatever, two hours

or however many hours is

probably easier than building

your own passive house and

doing all the calculations is

months, if not years of work.

But, but yeah.

But

how much

more does it sink

in?

This is this, so

this is my issue.

I'm gonna say it.

That course sucks.

It doesn't teach you anything.

I'm gonna be really

brutally honest.

and we talk about this one,

just for the record, Matthew

Carlin is now

talking and not Hamish White.

Yep.

So what we were going back at

before, one of the previous

conversations today is when we

did the conversation and the,

the teaching around passive

house, there was passion

and course when we did the

course, uh, yeah, we, there

was just so much enthusiasm.

Now I feel it's a tick box.

And I feel like it's

completely changed in the way

that we're teaching people.

And when it goes, why, why?

I loop back to that he

is like, we didn't do

any PHPP training in the

designer course Whatsoever.

And I feel like that's what

I wanted to learn to know

to improve our buildings.

But I didn't get that.

And I feel, that's why I say

you spending all those hours

and actually logging the data.

Made you learn properly.

Yeah, but

look, not, not everyone

can do that though.

I mean, let's be fair, I

think, the courses that are

being provided out there,

regardless of who you go

through, are a nice gateway

to get into the space.

And then it's like when you do

your carpentry apprenticeship,

right At the end of it, you're

a carpenter at the end of the

passive house trades person

course or designer course,

you're a designer, but that's

the beginning of your journey.

that's the point where you

actually start to learn,

in my opinion, right?

So you can do your course or

passive house trades person

course, but it's not until

you actually go and do one

or two or three or four

or five, that's when you

actually become an expert.

Yeah.

So same as when you

learn to drive a car,

you get your Ls, right?

But really.

Do you really know

how to drive a car?

You do.

Exactly.

But, why you're on your

PS those few years, you

actually, you are learning,

you, you are improving.

Yeah.

And

after you're off

your PS you are way better.

You are way better.

You are always safer driver.

And so with I, I absolutely

agree that when you

get the qualification.

I think you do need to

do work on some projects.

Yeah.

And then get into the

trenches and get stuck

into the details.

I don't think, I don't

think you should be

able to call yourself a

passive house architect,

building designer builder,

a consultant unless you

have a certified project.

and I, I'm probably getting

off track here, but like.

That's how Yeah.

As you go, you get expertise.

It's, it's logging

those hours.

Yep.

As 10,000, they say

10,000 hours is what you

need to do to become an

expert in that field.

Is that the But you've,

but you've

now done it, right?

So, so you, in your own

home, you did all of

that stuff yourself.

Yep.

You know, you, it's

real world experience.

You're, you're

in the trenches.

You are failing,

you're learning,

you're failing, you're

learning, you're failing.

You're learning in real time

at your own expense.

not so much failing though.

I think being the, the

very first house that

I've actually built.

Okay.

And at the time I wanted

to have the first pacif

asset in Australia to be

a pacif it has to meet the

air tightness requirement.

And so when you're doing

for the first time, it's

like, it's like when you

go to the moon, I think

you want to over-engineer

because

you cannot fail

when you go to the moon.

You cannot fail if you're

aiming to be the first

pass to fail because

you only, I'm only gonna

build that house once.

Yeah.

What did you get?

I over-engineered and

I got the tightest

house in Australia.

0.1 air changes

an hour and 50.

So what are,

what blows me away.

Right?

Like, and I can't get

that at the moment.

We've got all the experience.

I, I've done dozens

more houses than you have.

Right?

And I've never got that time.

What did you do?

it's not what I used.

It's, it's the mindset.

If you want to aim for

something like, the

thing is, it's different

when you're a builder.

You, your goal is to

deliver to the client

what the target is.

0.6 or better.

Yeah.

At the best cost.

Yeah.

You're not out there to

break records unless you're

someone like Drew Cro.

Well, I am right

now, at the moment

trying to beat

your record and I can

tell you I'm not there.

I haven't done my

last test, but like.

Yeah, I've thrown

a lot at this and,

but some attitude.

Yeah.

No, but that's

what I'm saying.

Like, that is an

insane number.

It's

ridiculous.

Yeah.

Look, we don't want everyone

to build that tight.

It's not needed because

it is not needed.

But it's the same reason

why um, you know, like

if, if I could do it, it

means that most builders

should be able to beat 0.6.

That, that's the idea.

You need one or

two to aim high.

So, so that everybody

else can then think,

ah, it must be doable.

It's Harley Strong, who was

a. software project manager

from defense can get 0.1.

Then why, why can't I get

0.6?

Do you know what, when

you, when you're, when

you are going for 0.1?

0.6 is easy.

I think 0.66 is

actually, it's a, it's a

mindset challenge, right?

I actually gonna

challenge anyone here.

I actually think getting

it, if you have an

internal membrane,

let's just specify that.

Oh yeah.

If your aura sips, if

you can't get on a point.

Six air exchanges, you

are off doing something

fundamentally wrong.

I think it's actually,

it's just, again,

it goes to mindset.

If you go, that's my

goal, I have to do it.

You'll do it very easily.

So just circling

back to how you got to, and

we're kind of jumping all

over the place here, but it's

an interesting conversation.

So 0.1 is super tight, right?

Your windows must

have been awesome.

And your building.

F I'm, I'm assuming that

leaks were potentially

through the windows.

Now Windows, let's just

put things into context.

When we say the windows

are leaking, I'm doing this

in inverted commas, right?

It's such a micro amount of

air come moving through that.

So, but windows leak, 'cause

they've got hinges, there's,

it's really hard to get that

a hundred percent airtight.

So your building fabric,

your actual building

fabric, not, the windows

must have been like a

hundred percent airtight.

Yeah,

very, very light.

The, the airtight budget.

Yeah.

You allocate some leakage

to the windows, to the,

to the walls, to the

floor, to your junctions,

to your penetrations.

You, everything leaks

a little bit, right?

But to get 0.1, everything's

gotta be super tight.

So, let's start

with the walls.

Okay.

So there are, there were

four airtight layers in

the walls now, normally

you really only need one.

You only need one.

Right?

Because like in theory, like

if you have an airtight thing,

like a balloon and you put

it inside another air type

thing, another balloon doesn't

make it any more airtight.

I love that.

And then put another balloon

inside the other balloon.

Inside the other balloon.

Yeah.

Which is what you did.

You

had

four

balloons, so Yeah.

So, but in reality,

those balloons are not

perfectly airtight.

They're leaking a little bit.

Yeah.

So you put a balloon that's

leaking a little bit into

another balloon that's

leaking a little bit,

maybe four, four times.

It's, it's, it's okay.

So.

So my outside layer was a

proclaim, uh, external wrap.

Yeah.

It was manto.

Yep.

Next, uh, on the

inside of that, it, it

was, it was a sips house.

So the outside layer

was 15 millimeters.

OSB.

Did

you tape all those

as well on the pen?

On the, yes.

All

the, the sips were I

had sikaflex pro on all the

junctions, and I got RSI,

'cause I applied it all with.

With a hand caulking gun.

Wow.

and they were, they

were taped as well.

So on the outside there's two

airtight layers on the inside.

The inner sips was 15

millimeters of o sb, and

they were all taped up.

And Stickerflex

probed as well.

Okay.

And then there was in tallow

on the inside of that.

Okay.

you don't, you don't

do this, you don't,

unless you drink

as someone who's done a

dozen or so sip projects, I

have never done this.

Yeah.

But that, that's

only part of it.

the main reason I, I got

a good number and these,

these houses were small.

They were a hundred and,

35 square meters, single

story, three bedroom houses

and, and just,

and just that makes that

number even more incredible

because for context, like

the smaller the volume,

the harder it is to get

that really, really tight.

Correct building.

Yeah.

The smallest building is

the harder it's to get

a good airtight number.

Yes.

Yeah.

so the, the thing that

made it easy was the

shape of the house.

It was a box.

Okay.

A form.

Yeah.

It was a box.

Yeah.

But it was a sexy box.

Box.

It can be beautiful,

boxy and beautiful.

Sexy.

So where does Logic House

then come into this?

So a, as a consultant I

was then advising people

how to, how to build

like this to build sexy

boxes.

Well

build whatever

they wanted to build.

Yeah.

And the, and the, the

first few clients, they

weren't building sexy boxes.

They were, they were building

very complicated sexy boxes,

complicated shaped houses.

That was, yeah.

Unsexy boxes.

Yeah.

And I, frustrated because, um.

Um, way buildings are

built here, it's so far

from what you need to,

to achieve a pacif house.

Like on my project,

it was dead easy.

I, I had full control

over everything.

It is done my way.

But on the, on

these other builds,

you

have to follow

certain process and the

consultant has no power.

You're constrained because

there's a limited budget.

The house has to

look a certain way.

The products were

not available.

Yeah.

The ones that were

maybe the client didn't like

them or couldn't afford them,

I found it frustrating for

the first few projects and

I, I got a few certified

over the line, but I thought

there's gotta be a better

way to contribute to this

industry, not as a consultant,

but as something else.

And I thought, well,

as a consultant, I was

recommending Windows.

And I had maybe one or two

that I could recommend,

and I thought, why don't

I start doing Windows?

And as a consultant, you

can't consult and recommend

Windows and sell windows.

You, you, you do

one or the other.

Yeah.

You can't do both.

It's a conflict of interest.

Yeah.

So at one point

I said, let's stop doing

consulting and let's

start doing products.

And Windows was at the

top of the list, but

it wasn't just Windows.

I wanted to.

Supply all the product that

we can't get in Australia.

At the time, it was

hard to get hit recovery

ventilation systems.

It was hard to get windows

and it was hard to get

prefabricated wall systems.

The the dream was to supply

everything I wanted to.

Be the godfather

of Pacif House.

There were the four

companies that the um,

prefabricated wall system,

windows, ventilation,

and, uh, and membranes.

Right?

now those companies they do

a lot of passive house work.

Okay.

And those are the products

that people need to pull

off a passive house project.

Yep.

And.

all those companies, what

they do is they have, they

have something in common.

they import all

of their products.

Yeah.

My windows

come from Poland.

The wraps come from Germany.

The panels come from

overseas in China.

Some, some of

it's, uh, COT from

Australia.

Yeah, I think, I think the

products are like the, the

Canadian, it's Canadian Pine.

Canadian OSB.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

And then you've

got the ventilation systems

made, the, the Netherlands.

Yeah.

And look, we, we make

no apologies that it's

not Australian Made.

Now, the, the reason is

we are leading the way.

So as an individual, I was

trying to lead the way by

building a passive house.

As a company, we are

leading the way by importing

products from the future.

we, I think of it as

we're going to Europe and

we are getting what is

bog standard over there

and bring it over here.

And it's like we are

going 20 years into the

future by doing that.

Okay.

I'm, I'm a time

traveling businessman.

I've gone into the future

20 years, I've got something

and I brought it back to

our present day in Australia

and the clients love it.

It's so futuristic

compared to the stuff

that's available here.

Right.

If we don't use

that as a reel, I dunno.

And, but can I just

touch on one important,

important point?

You created a market and I

feel at the moment there's

so many people trying to

jump on this market because

it's a new shiny thing.

You physically had to create a

window market for awesome, uh,

a market for awesome windows.

Yeah.

That, that's right.

Yeah.

I mean,

there are other

companies like me as

well that, that have

paved the way Yeah.

To, to, to import windows.

Uh, are there though, I'm

gonna, I'm gonna

challenge you back there.

I think you are the, the

reason why we're here.

Who

else was there?

Yeah.

There's no one else

that has done it.

I

mean, there, there

are companies but we, we serve

as the passive house market

the most we've got, yeah.

A third of the certified

passive houses, uh,

have our windows in.

But yeah, if we

are pioneers good.

but the, the idea is to

not forever import windows,

ultimately it would be great

if we could grow this market

so that everybody wants

these kinds of windows,

not, not necessarily ours.

Yeah.

If everybody wants

double and triple glazed

airtight windows that are

sexy then that will create

a market enough so that a

local manufacturer can then.

Start making them.

Yeah.

And guess what?

We are starting to

make some of these.

Yep.

Alright.

Yep.

We are, you know,

and, and I think what I love

about that conversation that

we were literally just having

then was you are not trying to

keep the market to yourself.

You're not trying

to be greedy.

Like I feel that you want

everyone to succeed and

everyone to every, you want

everyone to build this way.

The fact that you sell a

market leading window to

the passive house, market.

It doesn't exclude the

fact that you want other

people to come into that

market to provide other

windows for a broader part

of the com uh, community.

that's right.

We're, it's not, it's

not a a zero sum game.

We, we, if we can't win

a job, we will recommend

one of our competitors.

Yeah, because we, we want

the client to end up with

a high performance window.

It's no

different to

what we do as building.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And what we don't want is

to say to the client, yeah,

go, go get an AWS window

or get, get something.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I remember when I was

sold some, I had to

remember, I'm not gonna say

the company, uh, I still

remember the day they came

out on site to my project in

Westwood Gray, and they sell

the windows as like, oh, these

ones might keep water out.

Or you could get these ones

that, that are pretty good,

but might keep water right.

Like that was like, although

this is what the basic we

have, and I'm like, hold,

like, what is wrong with, and

I just then finished a passive

house course being like, wait,

what was the, I wish I had

that time, that conversation

post doing that course.

Oh yeah.

We, we, we, we've gotta

stay clear the cowboy

companies that, yeah, yeah.

Which is 99.9% of the window

manufacturers in Australia.

Yeah.

So that's the reality.

I would love to keep

chatting, but the reality is

I need to go and get my side.

Well, we might

do part, do you wanna

do part two tomorrow?

I reckon?

Do part two and we'll

touch on tomorrow.

More logic cast windows.

Yep.

Let's do that.

Yep.

Happy.

That sounds good.

Yeah.

Done.