1 00:00:00,020 --> 00:00:06,360 Kevin Mako: Hello, product innovators. Today we learn from an augmented reality expert on how AR is evolving for hardware startups. 2 00:00:06,580 --> 00:00:14,600 Narrator: You're listening to the Product Startup Podcast, a show to learn from top leaders in product development, prototyping, manufacturing, product selling, and everything in between. 3 00:00:14,820 --> 00:00:23,280 Narrator: Hosted by Kevin Mako, the leading expert on product development for physical product startups, sponsored by PTC's two best-in-class 3D CAD product development software solutions, 4 00:00:23,460 --> 00:00:29,620 Narrator: Onshape, and Creo, and produced by Mako Design + Invent, the original firm providing world-class consumer product development services, 5 00:00:30,020 --> 00:00:33,120 Narrator: specifically to startups, small manufacturers, and inventors. 6 00:00:33,700 --> 00:00:37,340 Kevin Mako: Welcome back, everyone. Today I'm very excited to introduce Jonathan Bohun to the show. 7 00:00:37,780 --> 00:00:44,260 Kevin Mako: Jonathan is the founder of Action Ship VR VR VR, AR, and Weedar, companies which are integrating the digital and physical world via augmented reality. 8 00:00:44,780 --> 00:00:51,320 Kevin Mako: Today, Jonathan is going to share some valuable knowledge from inventors, and small manufacturers on what augmented reality is, what opportunities 9 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:59,900 Kevin Mako: are coming in the near future for augmented reality hardware, and different ways hardware startups can think of augmented reality integration with your physical product. Now, 10 00:01:00,020 --> 00:01:00,820 Kevin Mako: on to the episode. 11 00:01:02,050 --> 00:01:11,870 Kevin Mako: Hey, John, welcome to the show. Thank you, Kevin. We're excited today to have you talk about augmented reality and what that means for hardware startups and how this technology 12 00:01:11,870 --> 00:01:20,970 Kevin Mako: is becoming more and more involved with the world around us, both the digital world and the physical world. And those things are closing in tighter and tighter. 13 00:01:21,370 --> 00:01:29,270 Kevin Mako: So first and foremost, give us a bit of a background. You've been in the VR-A-R world for many years. You've got a firm that works on these products. 14 00:01:29,430 --> 00:01:34,890 Kevin Mako: You've worked for museums and companies and all kinds of stuff in the augmented reality and virtual reality world. 15 00:01:35,030 --> 00:01:43,070 Jonathan Bohun: Give us a bit of a background of how you got to where you are today. So augmented reality became my passion as soon as I found out about this technology 16 00:01:43,070 --> 00:01:52,110 Jonathan Bohun: and my background before that, I got a mathematics and cryptology degree, mathematics and cryptography degree back in Ukraine. 17 00:01:52,330 --> 00:02:01,090 Jonathan Bohun: And nine years ago, I moved to California. Yeah. And we were doing some projects on augmented reality since then. We worked with 18 00:02:01,090 --> 00:02:06,930 Jonathan Bohun: San Diego Ocean Museum. We developed augmented reality for ZAM as well as project mapping. 19 00:02:07,450 --> 00:02:15,790 Jonathan Bohun: We dropped an app with augmented reality for ASAP Rocky album testing in 2018. We did some prototypes for Beyonce. 20 00:02:16,290 --> 00:02:25,710 Jonathan Bohun: Right now we have projects all around the world. Usually it's related to create good detailed model for augmented reality and 21 00:02:25,710 --> 00:02:27,470 Jonathan Bohun: help new companies navigate. 22 00:02:27,950 --> 00:02:32,870 Kevin Mako: What's really important when you start up augmented reality company. That's amazing. 23 00:02:33,190 --> 00:02:38,450 Kevin Mako: Now, let's talk about the difference between augmented reality and virtual reality, just to start. 24 00:02:38,770 --> 00:02:43,970 Jonathan Bohun: Virtual reality and augmented reality, both of them, is a mixed reality experience. 25 00:02:44,530 --> 00:02:53,910 Jonathan Bohun: And in the virtual reality, you're fully immersed into realities that created without, without any physical reality. 26 00:02:54,130 --> 00:03:01,870 Jonathan Bohun: Like usually virtual reality experience it started from your eyes. So your eyes are fully covered. 27 00:03:02,370 --> 00:03:09,350 Jonathan Bohun: You cannot see any other obstacles, right? You fully immersed into that reality. 28 00:03:09,850 --> 00:03:18,150 Jonathan Bohun: In addition to that, like, there are different touch points that people put on their hands on their body, to be like deeper involved in that. 29 00:03:18,390 --> 00:03:28,230 Jonathan Bohun: In the same time, augmented reality, we're more used to it as like an additional layer is a reality that we see every day with our ice 30 00:03:28,230 --> 00:03:37,690 Jonathan Bohun: with our five cents. Let's say it's an addition to five cents reality that we used to how well absorb information. 31 00:03:38,150 --> 00:03:39,630 Jonathan Bohun: So it's augmented reality. 32 00:03:40,330 --> 00:03:50,230 Kevin Mako: That's an additional reality you can enjoy while still being in your five cents reality. Yeah, I think the easiest way to look at augmented 33 00:03:50,230 --> 00:03:55,230 Kevin Mako: reality is to think of something like glasses that layer over that only show you certain amount of 34 00:03:55,230 --> 00:04:04,330 Kevin Mako: objects. You're seeing the real world in your normal viewpoint, but augmented reality is putting some other sorts of shapes, some digital shapes into your vision, as 35 00:04:04,330 --> 00:04:10,110 Kevin Mako: opposed to virtual reality, which is a complete immersion basically into the digital world. Now, the reason this is important 36 00:04:10,110 --> 00:04:15,490 Kevin Mako: is because we're quite interested today to talk specifically about augmented reality. As the hardware 37 00:04:15,490 --> 00:04:20,210 Kevin Mako: is improved and as new hardware startups are coming into the space, considering many different 38 00:04:20,230 --> 00:04:29,930 Kevin Mako: different use factors for augmented reality, it's becoming more and more potentially important to consider this on the horizon of how augmented reality fits into your startup or 39 00:04:29,930 --> 00:04:36,630 Kevin Mako: how your startup innovation ideas or hardware product ideas might be useful in an augmented reality world. 40 00:04:37,190 --> 00:04:41,450 Kevin Mako: So talk a bit, Jonathan, about what's happening in terms of the technology, because I know that 41 00:04:41,450 --> 00:04:45,590 Kevin Mako: you and I kind of mentioned before the show, the computing power essentially is just starting to 42 00:04:45,590 --> 00:04:53,130 Jonathan Bohun: catch up to the point where it's really starting to actually be workable in the real world environment around that. Now, explain a bit about that and why that's happening. 43 00:04:53,410 --> 00:04:59,390 Jonathan Bohun: So there's a few things supposed to happen before we can see a mass adoption of augmented reality 44 00:04:59,390 --> 00:05:06,050 Jonathan Bohun: devices. And you absolutely right, variable devices such as augmented reality glasses, it's probably 45 00:05:06,050 --> 00:05:12,210 Jonathan Bohun: will be number one among all other devices because most of the information that we consume 46 00:05:12,210 --> 00:05:21,690 Jonathan Bohun: through the days, through our life, that's information that we see. So a few things that's supposed to happen in the next few years. 47 00:05:22,570 --> 00:05:29,690 Jonathan Bohun: Finally, we see a month adoption of 5G technology and satellite internet all over the world. 48 00:05:30,030 --> 00:05:36,330 Jonathan Bohun: We see SpaceX sending satellites out to the space a few times a year. 49 00:05:36,910 --> 00:05:46,370 Jonathan Bohun: We know that Amazon working on something like that. They will see a stable, good connection with enough speed 50 00:05:46,370 --> 00:05:54,610 Jonathan Bohun: to send a lot of information. in the same time. So that's the one aspect. So 5G helps, the future internet development helps. 51 00:05:55,270 --> 00:06:05,230 Jonathan Bohun: And another hand, the problem that you're solving when you're creating augmented reality device, you need enough power to process the information. 52 00:06:05,890 --> 00:06:15,770 Jonathan Bohun: And there is like two ways to do it. And it seems like the industry really steering into the way where all the computing are going to be down in the cloud. 53 00:06:15,770 --> 00:06:21,990 Jonathan Bohun: and we will just receive information, like, was internet, was internet of things, stuff like that. 54 00:06:22,410 --> 00:06:30,990 Jonathan Bohun: Computing power is the second issue in internet speed, the first one, and the third one is the power capacity for the device. 55 00:06:31,490 --> 00:06:38,610 Jonathan Bohun: Because, like, most likely the devices we're going to see in the next couple of years we'll have, like, additional power bank. 56 00:06:38,950 --> 00:06:48,190 Jonathan Bohun: It will be maybe charged through your phone where you will have to carry a battery. Maybe in a near future, we'll see some devices that 57 00:06:48,190 --> 00:06:55,530 Jonathan Bohun: will have like longer battery life. Right now, I think it's on average about two hours of 58 00:06:55,530 --> 00:07:00,770 Jonathan Bohun: experience that would be what you really can hope for without looking for a charger. 59 00:07:00,950 --> 00:07:07,670 Jonathan Bohun: Biggest company in the world such as Met, Apple, Snapchat, working to solve that issue. 60 00:07:08,010 --> 00:07:17,470 Jonathan Bohun: And this summer, we're supposed to see augmented reality device from Apple. is going to give like a big jumpstart to the industry again. 61 00:07:18,030 --> 00:07:26,550 Jonathan Bohun: Snapchat already working on augmented reality glasses and they send their developers kits to people that got like under their program, 62 00:07:26,670 --> 00:07:35,470 Jonathan Bohun: I think last year, end of this year or beginning of next year, Snapchat supposed to release their augmented reality device 63 00:07:35,470 --> 00:07:43,690 Jonathan Bohun: with a lot of apps that right now under development. That's what we're going to see. There are some other startups that, 64 00:07:43,850 --> 00:07:49,690 Jonathan Bohun: focusing not on devices that you wear on your glasses, but like a separate, separate device 65 00:07:49,690 --> 00:07:54,230 Jonathan Bohun: that you, for example, can put on your clothes and it's going to project some 66 00:07:54,230 --> 00:08:00,870 Kevin Mako: information either on your hand or in front of you. There are some other avenues that companies exploring from my 67 00:08:00,870 --> 00:08:08,870 Kevin Mako: opinion and my team shares as opinion like eye devices like glasses and stuff. It will be number one device for augmented reality. 68 00:08:08,930 --> 00:08:17,350 Kevin Mako: That's amazing. So many different types of devices. They're starting with the most useful, the most practical right now, which is the glasses. But I love how you 69 00:08:17,350 --> 00:08:24,850 Kevin Mako: mentioned all these other things. And I think that's what's very applicable to emerging hardware startups, especially those looking in the air space. There's a lot of opportunity 70 00:08:24,850 --> 00:08:34,650 Kevin Mako: coming. This is like basically tip the iceberg, untapped, unforged, new development possibilities, new innovation, new ideas, new creativity 71 00:08:34,650 --> 00:08:40,590 Kevin Mako: are going to come to create a whole bunch of different devices. You're going to have your primary devices, which are more than likely 72 00:08:40,590 --> 00:08:49,090 Kevin Mako: for the foreseeable future being made by some of the biggest companies in the world. But then think about all these accessory devices, all these things, even something so simple as 73 00:08:49,090 --> 00:08:56,150 Kevin Mako: a QR card poster, which can be used by AR to do various things. I know you worked on early sign technology where you could use these 74 00:08:56,150 --> 00:09:01,930 Kevin Mako: glasses and you have certain kind of data points or whatnot that could actually change a sign on a 75 00:09:01,930 --> 00:09:11,150 Kevin Mako: road or somewhere else to a different sign based on your inputs and that sort of stuff. So there's a lot to different emerging technologies that are coming and a whole information 76 00:09:11,150 --> 00:09:19,190 Kevin Mako: technology innovation era that's going to start really now, tip of the spear, so to speak, a really interesting technology coming. 77 00:09:19,650 --> 00:09:24,010 Kevin Mako: I want to talk a bit about the user interaction potentially for these products 78 00:09:24,010 --> 00:09:33,770 Jonathan Bohun: because I know you do a bunch of work in the space of using augmented reality to enhance the user experience. You've been doing a lot of that in the cannabis space in particular. 79 00:09:33,870 --> 00:09:43,290 Jonathan Bohun: Talk a bit about that and how AR is being used to. enhance customer experience across a variety of physical products these days. That's a good question. 80 00:09:44,070 --> 00:09:49,370 Jonathan Bohun: And you know, something that I want to talk about, like another angle that we have to 81 00:09:49,370 --> 00:09:56,890 Jonathan Bohun: consider when we're thinking about mass adoption, it's people want to use something together. 82 00:09:57,550 --> 00:10:04,110 Jonathan Bohun: Most of the augmented reality project, unfortunately, they are like single user base, 83 00:10:04,110 --> 00:10:09,070 Jonathan Bohun: Right, that's not necessary you're going to see what I'm going to see in augmented reality. 84 00:10:09,770 --> 00:10:18,070 Jonathan Bohun: And there is some limitations that, again, Apple did a huge step forward with their LIDAR technology 85 00:10:18,070 --> 00:10:27,510 Jonathan Bohun: when they are measuring the length of the image, right? So that helps. And I think we're going to see a lot of physical devices that will be like 86 00:10:27,510 --> 00:10:33,610 Jonathan Bohun: augmented reality, and for example, or group of people. 87 00:10:33,610 --> 00:10:37,610 Jonathan Bohun: so they can enjoy augmented reality together with their devices. 88 00:10:38,310 --> 00:10:47,210 Jonathan Bohun: To be able to do that, you need, like, you want to make sure all the people, like all the devices look in the same direction and physical, 89 00:10:47,710 --> 00:10:55,290 Jonathan Bohun: augmented reality and are going to be in help with that. With some magic lead project, we're working on something like that. 90 00:10:55,410 --> 00:11:01,210 Jonathan Bohun: Unfortunately, it's still under development and it's still in the very early stage 91 00:11:01,210 --> 00:11:09,310 Jonathan Bohun: where people are just wearing a device and can be in the same room and that room map for all the users that are enjoying the experience. 92 00:11:09,690 --> 00:11:18,290 Jonathan Bohun: Like the easiest way to think that, right? There's like some physical anchor for augmented reality to start. And that's what we're going to see. 93 00:11:18,570 --> 00:11:27,190 Jonathan Bohun: We're going to see like group augmented reality where you can join like with all the people that in the room we're going to see the same thing in augmented reality. 94 00:11:27,550 --> 00:11:35,750 Jonathan Bohun: And that's part of the visions that we share to cannabis industry. So what we are using augmented reality for, we're helping companies 95 00:11:35,750 --> 00:11:45,610 Jonathan Bohun: to build more deep experience with the brand through packaging, right? So we can make packaging live in augmented reality. 96 00:11:46,130 --> 00:11:55,030 Jonathan Bohun: You can interact with that. You can read more information. We are like with augmented reality, big part of it. You don't have to print a lot of information. 97 00:11:55,030 --> 00:12:04,550 Jonathan Bohun: You don't have to throw a book in there to explain something to your customer. you know you just need a device you can save production costs 98 00:12:04,550 --> 00:12:12,010 Jonathan Bohun: on the packaging you know that's less paper produced less plastic produced that has a positive 99 00:12:12,010 --> 00:12:20,730 Jonathan Bohun: effect of environment overall you know like it could be like some kind of wide box with a QR code but 100 00:12:20,730 --> 00:12:29,830 Jonathan Bohun: when you see in the augmented reality it's all colorful you know it's giving the opportunity to open that box you can read the description you can 101 00:12:29,830 --> 00:12:38,570 Jonathan Bohun: read a lot of information. We're going to see it really in, as I mentioned before, we're talking pharmaceutical industry where people would be able, instead of like big 102 00:12:38,570 --> 00:12:45,870 Jonathan Bohun: as paper, you know, that usually you see in your medicine prescription, like all of that could be augmented reality. 103 00:12:46,430 --> 00:12:52,550 Jonathan Bohun: In augmented reality, you can see how you're supposed to take this, whatever appeals or medicine. 104 00:12:52,990 --> 00:12:59,710 Jonathan Bohun: What effect is going to fund you, you know, all can be merged with alarm. 105 00:12:59,830 --> 00:13:09,770 Kevin Mako: for example, right? When you need to take the pill again, stuff like that. Another thing for mass adoption is for people to be able to use it all together in one 106 00:13:09,770 --> 00:13:19,510 Kevin Mako: room and enjoy it, if we're going to be focusing really practical augmented reality. I think packaging and user experience with the product, that's an avenue 107 00:13:19,510 --> 00:13:28,770 Kevin Mako: that we're going to see a lot of companies will explore. That's very powerful. And customization to the individual user is going to become a big part of that because 108 00:13:28,770 --> 00:13:38,150 Kevin Mako: is you can essentially pair it with a user profile via their app or whatever technology they're using to interact and get kind of a unique experience based on the product that's 109 00:13:38,150 --> 00:13:42,570 Kevin Mako: physically right in front of them, getting certain visual cues and whatever you could really dream up, right? 110 00:13:42,570 --> 00:13:51,670 Kevin Mako: You're pulling in the real world that you see right in front of you on a shelf at a retail store, pulling out your phone or your glasses or like you mentioned 111 00:13:51,670 --> 00:13:58,430 Kevin Mako: future tech that's going to have AR enabled and now digitally interacting with that product in real time, custom 112 00:13:58,430 --> 00:14:06,910 Kevin Mako: to the user without all this kind of unnecessary physical packaging in order to get that very powerful, very visual experience. 113 00:14:07,250 --> 00:14:15,250 Kevin Mako: And I like how you mentioned this major mass adoption layer of interconnectivity, because we've obviously all seen this through the rise of social media, 114 00:14:15,310 --> 00:14:19,350 Kevin Mako: right? When the internet first came out, it was very linear. Look up information and that information 115 00:14:19,350 --> 00:14:25,270 Kevin Mako: is shared with you. And of course, with the emergence of social media, we realize that the world wants to be connected through these new technologies. 116 00:14:25,510 --> 00:14:32,650 Kevin Mako: Well, this is almost like the next evolution of that. So you're using AR to essentially connect different people together in a whole variety of 117 00:14:32,650 --> 00:14:39,690 Kevin Mako: ways. A lot of that, because we're talking AR here, which is the mix of the real world and the digital world, that's going to require hardware. 118 00:14:39,950 --> 00:14:46,190 Kevin Mako: So that's why I love having you on the show here to talk about hardware startups. For hardware startups, start thinking about how they're, 119 00:14:46,350 --> 00:14:51,570 Kevin Mako: either their own AR projects or VR projects can interact, or if you have a non-AR VR VR project, 120 00:14:52,110 --> 00:14:56,170 Kevin Mako: maybe think about how this technology might enhance your product in one way or another, 121 00:14:56,170 --> 00:15:03,030 Jonathan Bohun: or whether it's the sales channel, like you mentioned, in terms of packaging. I mean, I think that's pretty straightforward and can be accessible almost today. 122 00:15:03,190 --> 00:15:11,190 Jonathan Bohun: You can already start working on that type of technology, or it might be future-proofing your technology to think about, well, how can my users start collaborating, interacting 123 00:15:11,190 --> 00:15:19,610 Jonathan Bohun: with my product, with the digital and the physical world combined? And only AR and VR is going to bring all those things together. I agree. 124 00:15:19,790 --> 00:15:27,330 Jonathan Bohun: I'm really happy that you brought that glosses. there will be only one layer of devices that we're going to see on the market. 125 00:15:27,490 --> 00:15:36,030 Jonathan Bohun: We're going to see a lot of devices that project information. It projects not straight to the eye, but in the air or on 126 00:15:36,030 --> 00:15:40,810 Jonathan Bohun: the wall and stuff like that. So that will be really helpful with the advertisement. 127 00:15:41,530 --> 00:15:45,810 Jonathan Bohun: And another thing that you mentioned is that what companies today, 128 00:15:46,750 --> 00:15:54,110 Jonathan Bohun: where they should start in packaging that's pretty obvious. and I'm happy that more and more companies going into that direction. 129 00:15:54,570 --> 00:16:01,470 Jonathan Bohun: For example, Instagram, like augmented reality masks, that's another thing that you can do today 130 00:16:01,470 --> 00:16:10,810 Jonathan Bohun: and it doesn't require big budget to really implement that. I think different project or like projection devices, that's 131 00:16:10,810 --> 00:16:19,010 Jonathan Bohun: really what a lot of startups must explore because when you're building like a projector or something like that, 132 00:16:19,010 --> 00:16:25,330 Jonathan Bohun: especially if it's not variable, but it's devices that present it, like, and stays in the same 133 00:16:25,330 --> 00:16:29,910 Jonathan Bohun: space. You avoiding those limitations that we mentioned before, like computing power, 134 00:16:30,590 --> 00:16:39,630 Jonathan Bohun: internet power, et cetera. You can put your hardware together without waiting for technology to catch up. Today, that's possible. 135 00:16:40,230 --> 00:16:48,990 Jonathan Bohun: Like, I think Amazon right now, and the ideas are working on a computing device that you can put, like, either a 136 00:16:49,010 --> 00:16:54,830 Jonathan Bohun: AR hubs, those are devices input, like, for example, in a business center, and that device 137 00:16:54,830 --> 00:17:00,670 Jonathan Bohun: going to stream augmented and virtual reality to smaller devices in the area. 138 00:17:01,010 --> 00:17:10,250 Jonathan Bohun: So with all of that, you know, I think a lot of companies that really should be focusing on all sorts of projectors that you can work with. 139 00:17:10,330 --> 00:17:17,770 Jonathan Bohun: It could be a keyboard. It could be TV. You need a big-ass TV. You need a small projector. They're going to give you like a big picture and you can interact with it. 140 00:17:17,770 --> 00:17:20,550 Jonathan Bohun: It could be a different message every time. 141 00:17:20,830 --> 00:17:28,830 Kevin Mako: That technology is already out there. Unfortunately, people either don't have, like, not aware about it, or they just care to explore. 142 00:17:29,710 --> 00:17:39,510 Kevin Mako: Hopefully, this podcast will encourage people. Go into augmented reality space. Go into virtual reality. That's the future. Future is happening today. 143 00:17:40,050 --> 00:17:50,010 Kevin Mako: Really good analogy with the Internet. It happened, like, 20, 30 years ago. Like, right now, guys, jump on board. and it will be interesting right. Let's make it happen. 144 00:17:50,350 --> 00:17:57,530 Kevin Mako: John of those are great words of wisdom around AR and VR. Much appreciated for you being on the show today and giving a high-level overview of what's happening 145 00:17:57,530 --> 00:18:01,210 Kevin Mako: and augmented reality today. Thanks again. Thanks, Kevin. Take care. 146 00:18:01,730 --> 00:18:08,950 Narrator: Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Product Startup Podcast. If you found some value in the show, please do us a huge favor and leave us a quick five-star review. 147 00:18:09,150 --> 00:18:18,650 Narrator: If you have any questions, guest suggestions, or anything else, feel free to reach out to us anytime at our email, podcast at MakoDesign.com. That's podcast at MakoDesign.com. 148 00:18:18,870 --> 00:18:24,270 Narrator: This show is hosted by Kevin Mako, North America's leading expert on product development for physical product startups. 149 00:18:24,610 --> 00:18:32,430 Narrator: Huge thanks to our sponsors, PTC, and their two best-in-class 3D CAD product development software solutions Onshape in Creo, and Mako Design + Invent. 150 00:18:32,630 --> 00:18:39,590 Narrator: The original firm providing world-class consumer product development services tailored specifically to startups, small manufacturers, and inventors. 151 00:18:39,870 --> 00:18:41,570 Narrator: Thanks for joining and see you next time.