Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

I'm Anna Toonk. Welcome to how to be human, a podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humaneness

on this episode and I discussed Blaine

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Hello. Hello been talking for

I know I am I was gonna come in hot singing but then that would also reveal our topic which we you know, always act precious.

Right? Like you guys can't read and yeah, I'm sure you can.

I think every I would like to thank all of our listeners or readers, but who knows? You never know. Because it could have some some toddlers say they like to get a listen. That's true.

That's true. Maybe highlight doubt it. Anyhow. We're talking to blame today.

blame, blame, blame. That's what I wanted to seem Chain of Fools to. I wanted to seeing blame blame blame blame of fools. Blame the blame muffles. Yeah, as I've been prepping for that, that that's the song that kept you know, running through my running through my mind. Shall I give us a little definition? Please, please. All right. from Oxford languages blame verb assign responsibility for a fault or wrong. The inquiry blamed the engineer for the accident, known responsibility for a fault or wrong his players had to take the blame. already warned Nina and Nina also because we're, we're part of the psychic friends network. knew I was going to bring up Brene. Brown. Would you like me to do it now and just get it out of the way more later? And

I'd like to take this opportunity to say I really respect Brene.

No, you, you. She just teases me about my obsession with her. And that to me is when I talk,

of course, and you can't talk about blame without talking about her because she taught because she's she's cornered the market.

Yeah, it's like, vulnerability, blame. And I was thinking she has one more that I now I can't think of but she did a bunch of videos. It was

I was I have it up right now. I wonder if we could hear it.

The blame video, I don't know if we could legally play. Right, right, I think. But, um, if y'all subscribe to our substack, I am positive that I will be including a link to it when this episode comes out. But she has this amazing video that essentially talks about blame. And because Brene is perfect JK. She's using herself as an example as a chronic blamer. And she's like, if you're like me, and I think she does a great job of illustrating, like how quickly it happens and how much we get in the habit of it. But then she's like, so So what is blame? You know, and she's like, blame is a way to have a semblance of control. And blame is a way to discharge discomfort and pain, and has an inverse relationship with accountability. And it's a way for us to discharge anger. And she's like, the problem is, and she's like in, you know, saying to herself, she's like, it makes us hard to see opportunities for empathy. Because when we are I would say empathy is her maybe her third thing of like, she really hammers home the points of those things. But anyway, that blame makes it hard for us to see opportunities for empathy, because we are blaming, we're too consumed with making the connections about whose fault it was versus listening. And I just feel like part of why I really wanted to talk about this today and wanted to get in here your thoughts about it? Is I feel like blame kind of like, went out of vogue for a while, like it didn't seem like a lot of blame was around. And I don't know if it's related to Trump. I don't know if it's the pandemic, I'm not sure. But it feels like there's so much more blame flooding or like, people are very I don't know, is it canceled culture like, have you do you feel the same way? I feel like we've had this uptick of being people being kind of obsessed with blame, either. Who are we blaming for something or who's to blame? Or yeah, it's become a default when you bring something up to somebody they immediately want to blame something else. And it's it's almost like a pet peeve of mine. I'm sure I blame shit all the time. And I don't think anyone doesn't. But I find blame so aggravating. It feels like such a way that our brains trick us into thinking we know something when I don't think we know It like, shuts the investigation down, rather than actually create creating one to go like what happened, you know? And do to I guess, to my original point is, do you feel like it's all around? Like, it's like become more? Or just Yeah, hearing?

I think white ladies did that? What I think, listen, it's been around obviously it's not Yeah, but when, during 2020, you know, when it was brought to everyone's attention how racist everyone is, I think white women really went wild with policing each other and other people and trying to be like the best. They could be sort of not really. And I, I saw a lot of it in that space of, you know, just, and we see it, like, we've talked a little bit about it, and our comments on Instagram, like, just getting, you know, more followers and having people be like, Oh, you shouldn't promote this t shirt brand, because they are charging too much. And like, essentially blaming them for something that it's not even clear that they've done or, and, and it's just this very weird way, I think, for people number one to pass the baton in terms of accountability. But also, like you're saying, there's no, there's no internal investigation, there's no questions asked, you know, in the, when you get to that level where you're like, somebody else did it, or like, it's somebody's fault. Rarely are we as humans saying, what? How did I contribute to this? What is this bringing up for me? What could I be overreacting about? Or like being triggered by or whatever language you want to use? And like, how do I also kind of calm myself down or deal with my stuff first, before I go into that, like next phase, sometimes people are just to blame, like, there are just instances where that's very real, but I think we play fast and loose with it. And I also also think it's a really, it's really unfortunate how much it closes people off and, and shame obviously being so like, deeply related to it, that when you blame someone for something, this happened to me today. And you know, my mom doesn't really know how to listen to the podcast, so she probably won't hear this. But she was talking to Milo and they're, they have like the best relationship ever. And they were playing with a ball. And it flew over, or he was playing with it, and he likes through it. And she was like, You did that on purpose. And I was like, don't say that to him. And he got really upset. And she was like, what? And I'm like, do you don't blame him like that? Like, that's not and I got really annoyed and remembered, like being spoken to like that. And I watched him. Obviously, I didn't want to project anything onto him. But I watched him and waited for his cue where he got like, you know, a little sheepish and, like, went inside himself for a minute. And then I was like, oh, fuck now, like you. He first of all, he didn't. And even if he did, it's, it's a ball to game like, relax, right? You know, but I think we just we, we don't realize that I don't think we're responsible for every single human who we're speaking to, like, an all of their emotional shit. I do not. However, when we blame people, especially out loud, we can really do some damage. And so yes, it's like, we really have to figure our own shit out as much as possible. In a moment, in the moment, before we just go spewing whatever it is that, you know, we're thinking or feeling. It's just, it's just messy out there. That's how I feel. It's just fucking messy.

Yeah. And like I get, it's like, interesting to me to like, when people are like chronic blamers that they lose sight of like, this is another form of story you're creating, you know, like, is it possible that Milo did it on purpose? Sure, because he's four in in like, throwing shits fun. You know what I'm like, totally. How else do you learn, like, oh, I shouldn't throw the ball too hard, because otherwise it goes over the fence like, but except by doing it, you know, that I think sometimes do when you're in that real Blainey kind of play. It's like, you also think everything is sort of negative and personal versus kind of going whoa, that one went over the fence like were you trying to do a big throw? You know, it's like we forget to also just ask in like, my mom, let my brother stay at her house. And she has these cups that have the letter A on it and she loves them. They're from England. It's a whole thing. She's also given me one, and one of her cups was missing after the weekend. And my mom was like, I know they broke it. And I don't you know, and I don't know why they won't just tell me and did it I go, you don't actually know that you don't. What you know, is the cup that you like, is no longer there. And I think what you need to say to him is, hey, like, here's the, here's the audit of the weekend. This was good. This was not my ache one of my cups is missing. Here's where you can replace it. You know, I'm like, That's it. Like, it doesn't have to be this, like, you know, she had gone so far being like, you know, he's, I don't understand why he won't be more mature and admit they broke it. I'm like, we don't know that he did. The point is that it went went walkabout on his, you know, watch. That's the focus, in my opinion, you know, and I think it's like, do Brene points Brene Browns point of saying, like, when you're in the blame thing. You know, you're trying to make these connect these dots so fast that it's like, you lose sight of things you forget, like, this is my grandson, this is my son, this is someone I care about, like, they're not trying to harm me. You know,

what do you think people are trying to get out of it other than control? Or what do you think they think it does for?

I think they're scared? I think they're scared. I think it's old shit. You know, I think it's it goes back to being a little kid and being afraid. Like, I think it stirs up that type of stuff. That Have you ever, you know, like been dealing with someone. And it's funny. I was, I was about to be like, I can answer for you. I know you have their name and her name is. And you can tell, like, you you feel the sense of you're like, you're bumping up against their trauma, you know, and you're like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, like, you know, you're asking someone you're like, hey, good, good. First try at that email. But no, God, did

we have to bring her up?

It? Well, I mean, we've just dealt with this with a couple different people. I feel like, if you can tell in some ways, when someone like clearly came from a household where they weren't allowed to make mistakes, you know, that they have some sort of history. My mom is super Blaney. And I think it's because she was given a lot of negative feedback and told a lot of the ways that she was was wrong. So it was always I think, I think that blaming came away of trying to keep herself safe, like, you're not going to pin that on me or that's like, I'm already afraid of what's getting projected upon me. So I'm very clear, like, I'm always sort of looking at like, who did what, you know, like, this sort of way. And as I see, my mom tried to, like, recondition herself to let go of the perfectionism. I see the blame shifting, so I feel like perfectionism and blame, also share a relationship. And that means there if those two are sharing a relationship, that means that there's some peace of like, we do this shit because we perceive some sort of safety from it.

Yeah, I agree. And

13:15

we lose sight that it's us our grand said we lose sight that it's a four year old that we're accused of doing something reacts

I mean, and listen, we're all human. We do shit. I get it. My question though it to the world and to myself, often to myself often about people is like, does that mean with the person you're talking about? Right? This this girl worked for me for a bit and you know, it was a Class A disaster, like disaster. But for a whole year, I really tried to tiptoe around like her shit, and, and to discuss things in a way where there would in no way could it possibly be perceived as me blaming her right like, I went, which was my mistake, which set me up for disaster again, lesson learned. I don't like regret anything. Well, maybe but for another day. I for our regret episode, but I, I I don't. At what point like Where Where does compassion end? And accountability begin and accountability begin?

Well, because I was gonna when you immediately when you were saying that it was like making me flashback to when I used to manage more teams and stuff. And I remember this one. She was like, I just feel like you blame me all the time for when things go wrong. I go, No, I hold you responsible. They're your responsibilities. I'm not blaming you. I'm literally going what happened, like that was within your domain and it didn't happen. So why didn't it you know, like, Do you need more support? Do you have more too much? On your death, like what up? You know, and I think that that was something we were caught in as well with that person of like, it always had to be emotional there was we were always being met with like, like, don't get mad because I was having a bad mental health day. And it's like, oh, like, where's that space between, like you people need to be told when they're doing something incorrectly. So how do we learn to do that without being blaming, which doesn't seem to be, you know, super effective, it's just the way we're getting rid of feelings we don't want to feel. But also like, when we're being told you did something wrong, how do we not let all that defensiveness you know, come into the picture where we can't hear it.

Also, why is doing something wrong? So bad? Like, oh, my god, like, it's not and I'm so tired of like, this narrative that the like these kids have, that they listen, it must be really hard to be in their heads. I am not saying I don't have compassion, however. Or just humans, it doesn't even have to be this generation. It's many, but the people that like any ounce of, like, perhaps bad or wrong, or wrongdoing, or something that's perceived as negative to them, or they think it is, turns into this like, spiral of where they can't even hear you after that, because they've done something wrong. It's like, well, that's how we learn. This does not mean you are a bad person. I did not say this email sucks. Also, I wouldn't say that, but no emails not gonna work or here's what what isn't working about it. And, you know, like, Let's do better next time. And here's what I would, you know, suggest blah, blah. And this not have it turned into this, like, I'm a bad person. I'm, I'm suck at my job. i Are you going to fire me like that? When people ask you to emotionally, take care of them emotionally, when you are just trying to have like, a very kind of normal human chat about like something gone amiss? That just drives me insane. And I don't know how these people expect to get anywhere.

Yeah, I agree. I wonder what that is? Like, I wonder if that's is that a lack of coping skills? Is that Yes. Inability to self soothe? Is that a boundary issue? Like, is it all of the above the above? Like, I mean, there's definitely there were definitely times, obviously, in my early career, where I was wildly inappropriate, you know, like, and I cried at work all the fucking time. But I was also underlaying, not only in the bathroom. No, I shared it on my desk. Oh, yeah. I mean, but to my defense, I was like, 23. And under a lot of pressure, like, was it kind of made up? Yes. But like, did I really feel it and internalize it? Yeah, it was real to me, I, you know, I was 23, and trying to do a really good job and in a field that really cared about and wanted to learn all this stuff. And, you know, like, and I was anxious, I didn't know that at at that time. And, and I was going to be like, the only person left in the office to sort of, like, manage and take care of things while they were all going to the premiere of a movie we had worked on in LA. And, like, no one had had any conversations with me about like, procedure, or like, there was just, I mean, I had like, a whole list of shit that was outstanding, you know, that. I was like, hello, like, I need an adult. You know, like, I felt it. And I burst into tears when, you know, my boss was like, okay, you know, cuz like,

totally, I can see it and I can feel it. But yeah, I was like, scared. Everybody's like, Alright, you got it. Right. Okay, bye. Totally.

Yeah, they were all hung up on like, their outfits and getting ready and how it was, and I was happy for them. I wasn't, you know, but I was more like, I thought I was gonna have more support to like, be alone, essentially, you know, to, like, be left to like, maintain the ranch, you know, but, um, but I wasn't like, I didn't wasn't saying I mean, it I probably probably was triggering for me in a way because that was a little bit of like, what my life had been. It's kind of like, you're good, right? And, uh, by like, me being left handed going, like, What the fuck, you know? So, but I didn't see to my boss. I wasn't like, I just was like, I'm scared y'all are leaving. I don't know what to do. Like, what do I do about this, this and this and this and this? You know, it was like, I wasn't like, I just feel like you're disregarding me and oh, like there was nothing about.

Can you imagine what that would have been met with? Like, I'm sorry. I know. We talked about this a lot and like I It's not to me demeaning in any way. But if I spoke to any of my bosses that way, and I don't mean this isn't like an elderly way of like, I walked in miles to school, so so should you. But there's so much that you learn from being, like having no choice but to be an adult before you're ready and to show up at work and to like, Oh, you don't know the answer, figure the fuck out. Like, figure it out to the best of your ability.

Some of what you're saying and describing is that there is a joy that comes to really embracing that no one gives a fuck, no one cares. No one cares that you're sad. No one cares. Like, your, your your mom, my a dear friend might you know, but like, the world at large, you know? And it's like, there's that seeing? Someone was somewhere. Someone was talking about that their couples counseling, it's like, you're 100% responsible for 100% of your feelings. 100% of the time. Yeah. And we all do want to blame, like, I was having a good day. And then you said that, and that ruined my day. And it's like, Well, the truth of it is like you let it and that sadness, like, did the person say somebody that hurt your feelings? And they shouldn't have done that? Yes. You know, like, agreed, but like, did you then take it and run with it and continue to ruin your day with it? Yeah. And like, That, to me is what we all then I feel like Gen Z is like your Yeah, Z right. Yeah. Is like getting a little bit confused of like, yes, there should be some improvements. Yes, there's this stuff that we should care about, like, yes, there's these things from from therapy, we've learned from like, trying to care more and have more empathy and be more, you know, like Reaganomics, like cost is all of our social services, how do we get more of that in and have mutual aid and care and all these things, but there's a difference between that and then like, some of this entitlement that's being called something else, you're calling it like, you know, values or alignment or community care. But often, I think it's just like another form of individualism. And, you know, what, what people want is, you want what you want. I mean, how different is any generation? You know, we're so unique, because we want things like yeah, okay, we all did.

Yeah, we wanted them to know for sure, and I don't again, it's like, I progress is great. We don't have much of it. So like, I'm all for it. However, thinking that you're like special or have reinvented something like, you know, also happens every generation where we're like, Have you guys heard about this thing called like, freedom? Like, we should have it? You know, like, no shit, asshole. But I also think like, what are you trying to attain? So you're trying to get a mean, we were just talking about this a meaningful job fulfilling work money, like whatever, but you think you've got to skip all the necessary steps that life must hand you and that's what I'm really talking about with the with the work stuff and the shitty bosses or the like crying at work or the feeling like you're gonna get fired and getting over it and not calling your boss and being like, are you going to fire me? Like it is you because you have to self soothe you have to become your your best friend. You have to understand like, really what you're made of and what you're not. And that only comes through experience. So you cannot get to the place you want to be without the experience that that takes you there. It just doesn't work that way. And if you do, I believe it. It's empty, like I don't. So okay, so Anna, we started a podcast, right? We started podcast one year ago, almost. And day two. We have the number one podcast like we're just we're in we've learned what did we learn nothing. We have money we have advertisers we like are just killing it. Like whoever we want comes on the show on Episode Two. Like we have learned nothing.

Yeah, and I tell you what, I would learn how to have a massive ego. Of course, I wouldn't. I wouldn't be like, oh, yeah,

whatever I touch turns to gold.

Am I the next coming to podcast? Like, I mean, which it would be so I mean, and this is like I've become sort of like Willy Wonka as I age where like I've begun like talking in riddles and things like I'm not trying to do it. I mean, it feels related to my midlife crisis, but like, because I'm like this will be fun

and full of candy

to take into sharing occasionally going down the river but I am like nothing means anything. Like in so many ways. I think back to stuff that I was like, positive about at 25 or And I'm like, I so do not agree with that anymore that in you can't really understand that than that. Like, I read something once that really stuck with me, it was like, there's a difference between confidence and experience. And there really is. And I think, like, so much with like people about anything is it's so easy to be cavalier or be like, it's just, I mean, everyone should have freedom. Yes, they should, that is not a new thought, what we have yet to crack is how do we get everyone freedom, like, with these variables, like then you can impress me, you know, like, Celine from the slow factory, who is a very, very smart woman and knows a lot about trying to create sustainability and fashion and cultures and stuff like that. And she's Lebanese, and she's going back to Lebanon, and was saying in was talking about this and was like, a lot of these things that we say in the West, like, that just cannot happen, or, you know, like we're doing in Lebanon, you know, like, we have these you don't like, these things are possible. And she's like, and I'm not saying that in to shame anyone, or blaming or whatever. Like, I'm saying it to inspire that, like, these things are possible. And I think that like, that some of my irritation with blame is well, is that I feel like it closes. One of the biggest gifts that working in production gave me was that, like, I remember, it's funny, because I'm about to go to Italy with the same boss who taught me this when she's like, I have no problems with you making mistakes. The only time I have a problem is you if you start repeating them, because it means you're not learning anything. And I was like, Whoa, and at first I was like, I don't believe it, like this bitch doesn't mean that I'm going to totes get in trouble. And she really meant it. Anytime I ever made a mistake. And it was the first time I made the mistake, she had zero problem with it, you know, and she might be mad, it might be she might like, or, you know, like, she maybe had feelings, but she never took them out on me. And she never personalized them. You know, she was never like, it was like, okay, and, and I learned so much about that. And I learned so much about how to work with other people in that and how to be in a group, you know, and the biggest way to collaborate with anyone, which has been a huge source of joy for me, and a lot of my work is you can't blame. You really can't. It'll it will kill it. It will put it'll put you on opposing sides. And oh, really? Oh, yeah. And it has to become this way of just sort of going, what happened here? What part? Did we all play in it? Or what you know, and that was something my boss would really show me of like, okay, like, do you get the? Like, do you get the piece of like, when you know, the tape didn't get out on time or whatever? It's like, do you see the larger picture of why that happened of like, okay, there wasn't enough time that was designated to this. It wasn't any, it was hard, because it did really make me take accountability, but also kind of like ditch magical thinking as well. And I think because I'm a very solutions oriented person, almost to like, you know, a cuckoo place in it, that I have to kind of go like, not everything needs to be solved, and everything's a problem and that everything has, you know, like, but it's such a part of my belief system that I think like everything kind of has a solution. Or sometimes the solution is like, just letting it be what it is, you know, or whatever. That that was really liberating for me to get to be in this environment in my early 20s, where like, you were allowed to make mistakes. And it was very free and okay, and not accusatory and not pitting each other against each other. To explore why things went wrong is well,

I'm really shocked that you had that. Meanwhile, we were living parallel lives while I was not there yet, but Well, I

think it was staff I think my boss was was unusual in it. And I think she set the tone to give her I want to give her full credit because I think she created the culture of it. Because in production, Miss Asia was this. This was at Sony Music Studio. So I was doing post production, you know, but I think part of what it was is that production has this duality of like, you're not allowed to make mistakes, there will be no mistakes. It's like everyone dies If a mistake is made. And then there's this flipside of like, What the fuck do we do when a mistake happens? You know, there's this real duality of like, there needs to be total perfection because it's gonna go on air, but also, how do we catch on the mistakes that happen as we get it to the perfection like there's this real, but in order to be in that I think and for us because we did such like a high volume of work and for high profile things because the The label said to us, so like, we might literally be working on a music video for somebody, you know, that sort of stuff like you. It's like, I think Steph knew, like, you can't be in this state of like hyper vigilance all the time, or afraid of making mistakes, because then you will, you will know it. And so it was like, how do we create this environment where you can fuck up, but like, we don't create, like a pattern of it.

It's fucking brilliant because it the nervousness, you know, like, I was in the complete opposite environment where every little thing I did from the minute I got there, if it wasn't perfect, and of course, it wasn't like, well, and this is what I wanted to talk about, too, which plays right into this blame shifting, which is something that, you know, is like, very common, abusive, emotionally abusive behavior, when people will say things like, you know, I wouldn't have cheated on you, if you were around more, you wouldn't have called this person and said this, if you hadn't, you know, whatever. I call it.

I know, I was bad. But I was bad. Because it's like, fill in the blank. And it's right.

Exactly. And so that happens, you know, in, like, many different I think we don't realize how many different relationships that can play out in. I feel like a lot of people think that's, like, exclusively romantic. And it's not. Yeah, at all.

I think so experienced it more and works in romance. To be honest, I haven't dated that many blamers in that regard.

Yeah, I've, I've experienced both again, I hate bragging here. It's really super embarrassing, but I definitely my work life was so I know, I had one good boss, who was who by the time I got to him, I was like, like, I felt like I was tweaked out, you know, I was just like, no, like, and he would be like, go to sleep. Like, I'd be up for all he was like, making sure like he was in China, like wherever he needed to be like, with what? And he'd be like, can you go to sleep now? Like, it's fine. Like, it's like, it's too much. But I was I was so scared. Because it was this con i was berated constantly. And everything was like, No, I, I wouldn't do this if you didn't do that. But also, you cannot make mistakes, and it would make me really nervous. And then I wouldn't be able to think clearly. And so I would fuck up more than I would have, right? If I wasn't under this, like, incredible pressure. However, really, truly, especially if you want to own your own business, or just like, understand people more like, I don't have a lot of patience for humans, I will say that, but I also have all the patients in the world for people, like I get a lot of the picture. I'm like, got it, you're coming from here, you're coming from there, potentially hear, like, heard understood. I working in really volatile environments has, like, been very helpful for seeing, you know, the good, bad, ugly of humanity. And you've worked in TV, like, you know, the craziness that comes with that. And that was really formative for me to be like, you know, there's all sorts of people here and they're all and I what am I gonna do throw the runner under the bus, like the runner who's making a fraction of what I'm making? who's like, you know, totally on the bottom of the totem pole and like treated that way, like, so I'm gonna go to my boss and not take accountability for something I did or whatever, even if it was the, like the runner, right? Like, that was an easy way I thought like, cop outs like that you weren't going to get anywhere also in the business, right? Like, as far as I'm concerned, because people can see out of that shit. And nobody wants a snake around.

So my grandfather was a crazy successful businessman, bless him. And he was like, listen, the same people you see on the way up are the ones who save you on the way down. And he was like, and he was huge about that. He was like, you treat everybody the same. And he would he started this, like, when I was really young. And I was sort of like, I have no idea what I'm being prepared for. Yeah, yeah. Like Thank you, Grandpa, you know, like I was just like, I don't get it and then after my dad died, like his indoctrination, but you know, big really began and he'd be like, No, you want to go for a ride? And I'd be like, Yeah, sure. And he would like ride around in a pickup truck and he would just like espouse life lessons and then pretty quickly, I was like, Don't do it, you'll get trapped and like, just lecture to for hours like so. But it But exactly to your point like that. A lot of things anything were, I think, I mean, I think very few things can you do solely on your own, you know, but especially in production, you learned you cannot do your, your job without other people how and all the people in all of them and you realize, like, it's not a good look to sell them out, you know that, really, you're only as good as the people like, above and below you that you're like, even if it was the runners fault. It's like, it doesn't behoove me to, like, have the runner be like, Oh, I'm now I'm afraid of Nina. Because anytime I mess up, she's going to tell her that, you know, like,

I'm gonna go out of my way to help Nina like, and it's not transactional like that. But like, yes, my boss was the worst person ever. And everybody knew it. And the only reason she got away with it was because she was the star and you don't fuck with her, and you just let her abused people and that's it. But everybody hated her. And like, so you could be that person. Sure, you could be the 1% that gets to the top by literally stepping on everybody. Like, beneath you or on your way. Like, I know, she was her I know she had like, was torn up by the media and like, fucking it was I'm sure it was incredibly difficult to be her right for a period of time. But knowing that and having that experience you would think and also spewing the shit that she did about like respect in literally books about respect books about saying thank you books. I'm like, lady, you have never you have never once said thank you to me, you do read gift me champagne glasses that I gave you from somebody else that I've already unwrapped for you

like, like there imagine being that disconnected? Oh, I

mean, throwing hairdryers like firing people on a dime, like, actually read for somebody from the show. I told you about that. Like, she reached out to me. And she was like, I'm like, Is this who I think it is? She came to the farm like a month ago. And it was this really wild experience where she had. She's a pretty major publicist, and she'd worked at the show. And she I didn't know that she had gotten fired. From there, I guess after I'd left. Oh, and she said that she had gotten like this, you know, this big spot for one of the other anchors or whatever. And this woman, my former boss, didn't like it. And she had her fired that day. And she saw her like, a year later, or something going into some gal or whatever. And from across the street. My old boss was like, Oh, my God. Hi. I was just saying, Hillary, you know, talking about putting here like Hillary Clinton's campaign, like she needs she needed someone like you. And and she was like, I don't even I was like, she probably didn't even remember firing you. She was like that. She was like, I don't think she did. She was like, I really don't think she fucking did. And when I left she, I was a stylist. And I had been working with this. We had like a really big relationship with Lauren Taylor. So the woman from Lauren Taylor emailed me and was like, I just want you to know, which I thought was huge of her never had anyone, like, done anything like this for me since she was like, I just want you to know that Deborah has, oops, whatever.

It's global. So if you google your name, this comes out. So I think you're safe in that regard. Yeah,

she you can only keep it so private. So yeah. So anyway, nobody and if she wanted you to tell better stories about her. She should have been better. I did. I did signs up like but that was it's probably it's probably old by now. Yeah. But she was like, Wait, what was I just talking about? This? She was like she she was trashing you. She was like she as soon as yes, she wrote her. As soon as I left like, like, I was not even freshly didn't you

quit as well, like, so what? Because of medical? Well, you know, like you

went to No, no, that was that was I am J No, I didn't. Yeah, I quit img. But I had to go back to IMG after I was on medical leave, which was a fucking nightmare. But no, I didn't send it. This was an inside edition where I yeah, she would threaten to fire me every like three months, or every month, it would be like she would dangle that and be like, Nina, you're gonna lose your job. And I'm like, going on. And this time, she did it. And I was like, actually, I quit. And she was like, and I'm going on vacation next week. So you got five days. And she was so shocked. She could not even fucking believe it. And you called her bluff. I did. I totally called her fucking bluff. And I took and I was smart enough at 25 Thank God to take the woman who was not actually HR but who was like acting HR, which is just a joke because this was at a huge network. And we didn't even have fuckin HR in the building. Okay? No, but she, this woman was amazing and and like, anyway, that's a whole other story, but she was with me and I was like, when we left I was like, as far as I'm concerned, like, she kind of said at first so I'd like a severance. And she was like, we can work that out.

But at least would like let you be eligible to for unemployment.

No, I got Yeah, they gave me a severance. Yeah. And amazing, but it at all, probably because they were like, please don't sue us. Exactly. Yeah. 100%. And I was smart enough to be like, Give me what I'm owed. Thank you. At least a sliver of it. But she trashed me immediately after I left. And so I wrote her. I wrote her yeah, oh, yes, I did. Doesn't surprise me about you. I will never forget, I was sitting outside on the porch, smoking a cigarette and drinking wine. My friends went inside, and I was like, I'm gonna email her. And I was like, do your Deborah. This was like, literally the day after I quit. I'm like, it's weird, like doubt come to my attention, that you're making slanderous comments about me. Please, I've given you 100% throughout the last couple years, like, Please refrain from these types of comments. Thank you. She wrote back in two seconds from her Blackberry. Consider it done.

Wow, whatever. Like imagine being that like, quote unquote, successful and that messy. I mean, I know that success, like doesn't create maturity. But like, I think one of my greatest like frustrations in our society of like, why we keep rewarding like, terrible people. Like, imagine if my 25 year old, Assistant person, whoever even producer has, like, quit slack, you know, and sends me an email, like, I don't respond to it. I go into a fugue state. I pretend that never happened. I'm so embarrassed, you know, like, worse. Imagine, like, that's in sane to me. So something I'm curious about? Because I think when I first met you, you were definitely I think, a little more Blaney. To be honest, it or it would be something like it would be sometimes like your first like, like, initial, like, you would go to blame. And I think it's related to being a fiery person. You know, it's the it's the jolt of the the anger, the adrenaline, because I don't think you are a blamer. But I think you also like to be right, and I think, blame and right, and all of that,

because I think I what kind of things would I blame? I'm curious. I mean, it was always like

dumb shit. Honestly, it was never anything, but you would be like, you know, like, that's because of this or did it if you don't like this, like, like, knee jerk, you know, and then you would normally, like, you know, like, come around to something else, or, you know, like, but you would have a little bit. I don't know that it was unnecessarily blame. But I think when I was getting to know you at the time, I was little like, sounds like Wayne sometimes. And, like, if you're doing it for other people, you'll do it to me, so I was a little like, why I just remember watching that and then going, Oh, I don't think it's blame. I think it's just related to like, you know, it's similar to me of like, I get fired up, you know, and like, when I get fired and go like, well, what, how are done it? You know, or like, there's, you know, it's like, it's not really

useful, how I was trained, you know, like, where I don't think I blame people. Like, I mean, I don't I don't think I blame here's what I here's what I don't blame people for my mistakes. Like, I don't do that, as far as I'm aware. Or I'd like to think as I don't do that, or I,

I think you do sometimes in a split second. Like when you're, I think when you're kind of like for I think you have a moment sometimes when things like happen or we find something out that splits it because it's like, you're trying to figure out what the sides are but then you but then you don't, you know,

like like, if I fuck up, I'll be like, Oh, it's hurtful.

I don't know how to explain it. But it would be like, it would be more than I think you were trying to like protect yourself.

Oh, just got in a huge fight right now.

I'm trying to think of how I can like if I was like, Are you kidding me? Like but but you would be like almost like immediate like, well, like, well I did that because they'd hadn't given me this or what either there would be just

Oh, yes. Okay. Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Like we're sort of like now I know we're talking about a soul Okay, got it.

Or like defining or like figuring out what the lines were or something. And it felt related like to me not like not really knowing you or like knowing sometimes what the situation was I would be like, is this explanation, excuses or blame or are none of the above? You know, I didn't always cuz I didn't know how to read it at first. Yeah, you know, we're how to sort of take it. And then I realized it was more like your it was kind of none of the above. It's more, I think a thing you do. I think a lot of your stuff I've found in reaction to some is about like protection, essentially, you know, like it like that's a place you come from where I think mine is more like out of fear of like, Oh, am I in trouble? Or do you not like me, like, we come at things from a different lens, and it helped me understand more your lens is like, covering your ass that you would more it was more like you were trying to be like, clear about what had happened or what you had done or not done. Versus blame.

Yeah, I'm sure that I mean, that being said, I've definitely blamed people. For my unhappiness in the past. I don't know if you've heard of, I don't know if you've heard of this thing that sometimes people do. But like, you can make it someone else's fault that you're not happy. Supervisor. So no, tell me more. So you just get a guy. And then you just throw it at him. And it sticks. But oh, okay, what what I my like, I got so fed up with myself at some point, probably in my 20s when I got fed up with most of my bullshit, late 20s, unfortunately, which was like, okay, so you don't have this because of this, like, who? Like, first of all, like speaking about, right? Like, she was a client, right? Like, okay, so she also taught me a lot. And she like, and I actually feel really grateful for, for the job that I had with her. Because I know that every single thing that I've done workwise has informed my business and like the way I interact with people and like covering my ass, to your point protection, like tenfold, you know, stuff I would have never known how to do. But emotionally when I was younger, I would be like, instead of looking at how I could change my life, instead of looking at how I was my own worst enemy, I would be like, Well, it's because this is because that is and then I got into a habit with like, it was my parents and blah, blah. And finally, I was like, it's not anybody's responsibility to create happiness. I mean, listen, if I had enough security, obviously, some people have zero, right? Like, what I had was more than enough to make the life that I want for myself. And when I really snapped into that, and was like, pick up your fucking big girl pants and like, get a grip. And, and I've always been independent, but there's a difference between being independent and feeling like, the world is out to get you all the time. And you're like, just bumping up against it. Like, that's not what was happening. That's how it felt sometimes and then getting chronically ill like, it felt even harder. I was like, What the fuck? Like, why do I have this? Like, when am I going to feel okay? Like, No, I'm just going to smoke cigarettes and like, drink too much wine because like, I don't care. Like if I have to be sick, then I'm going to be sicker like wow, what a point to prove Nina. And eventually, I was just like there. Or you could flip this whole narrative and be really accountable for your own shit and go after things that are way more difficult maybe in the beginning, but actually serve a purpose and help you live a nice life.

Isn't that funny too, though, that in a way like your hyper accountability I was at first reading is like blame.

We literally almost got into a screaming match you guys, but everything

is so fun. I

like I like I like that you are the only person that I know in my life who has the balls? Except for my husband obviously. And like really close friends. To be like, this is your shit. Like because I don't take it

personally. No, you also I think you know that I'm genuinely less

you to also think I take things personally. No, I

don't think you do actually. Well, I think you'd think you take the weirdest shit personally, to be honest. Like, I was you'll be like, I was I was really excited to go get iced coffee and and this person was crossing the street so slowly. Like you'll you'll maybe this link to Rando person. Yeah, like have all that and I'm like, it's so funny to me that you like 90% of the time and then like where it focuses. I give Melissa shit about this to have like, she there's so much of her life that she I mean, like she she met motherhood without like missing a beat and then she'll be like, This person was mean to me and I'm like, well Why'd you know like, the things sometimes that like flummoxed people, but that's also what's interesting to me. And it's like, I think you're interesting. Or it's interesting to ask you about yourself, because you are self aware. So I know often if I can figure out a way to articulate it in a way that isn't just saying, like, meanness, and hence, when I met you, like you were a blamer, because that's not actually what I mean, that's not actually the nuance of it. I'm trying to say, like, you know, this is something, you know, I realized, I miss read, but where does it come from? In you, you know, that, you're, you're open to that, and generally have an answer for it. And that, to me, is what is really interesting about any person, you know, I think it's always like, it's a real gift, if people will let you ask questions about them, and then give you honest answers and return. Like, I know, that's something like take getting in, yeah, you know, but real level totally. But like, how often does somebody really ask you or say, I've noticed this about you, like, in not in a critical way, not in a judgement way, but a true inquiry and curiosity of like, why you do that, you know, like, I think is, is rare. And I tried to be in that and not do it. You know, like, if I did it to everyone all the time, it'd be really tedious. But I think part of why I'm always terrorizing you with asking you to explain yourself to me, is because I know you will know, I know you can

I got to just be the C students, so they won't ask you to get the A's. You know, like, I showed up and now you know, yes, of course. I love it. I like having real conversations. And I like to get better, right? Because I'm an Aries. I want to be better all the time. But actually what I wanted to say this before we started to wrap up about a thing that happened with Wayne i the other day, which I was like very conscious, Lee in where so I go to my classes every Saturday, Sunday, Kate, you're getting another shout out, gotta get to my cake classes. And we go to the farmers market at before and he and I have to leave at 945 Like, I have to be on time, blah, blah. And lately Milo is it's really hard for me get out the door. Like he cried. Like a half. I have to have 10 minutes to prepare him for me to leave. Because he needs to give me like 45 hugs. I need to give him I need to give him necklaces of mine to hold on to. Like I need I'm proud

of you that you're pushing through. Because this is like so your kryptonite. Oh my god, I'm so proud that you're pushing through like your mom, you are like, take this space for yourself and teach him you're coming back. Like, this is hard shit. It'd be so much easier to stay home hard.

And I thought I think about it. And I'm like, No, I have to do this for both of us what I won't do. And this is not to shame any parents. But what I will never do is just be like, he'll figure it out and like leave and be like, Oh, only cry for a second like no, I want to see my child having like, you know, as hopefully like a full like settling down before I go. And I was having the conversation and knowing that I'm going to come back are trusting that I'm going to come back. But he'll he bolted out the door and was like, I need you like it was like hysterical. And you know him he doesn't really like, get that way. But he's like, I need you mommy. So I got out of the car. My point is like way gave me one minute, he showed up at 944 and I had to leave at 945. So I was like, Okay, this is not going to work. I'm going to be late and I don't like being late. And I'm not going to leave my kid crying. So I was annoyed. And I get in the car finally like I've settled him he's wearing like all of these beads and like playing with my tarot deck. That's what calms him down, which I think is really cute. I'm like pick a card for mommy's like this one. This one he like sends me away with like three oracle cards.

Amazing things, but

I know, like, look at all my fortunes. So like, what does this one mean? As I'm driving? No. So as I'm driving way text me and I don't I don't like say anything to him. And he's like, I'm really sorry. And they don't respond until I get out of class. And I was like, hey, like, I appreciate that. I need more time. Because it's been really hard to like, as you see, to get him to that place where he settled. And also, I understand that what you're trying to do is like, get us food at the farmers market where I don't go or do things like that. So it's all good. I just need some I just need like a good 10 minutes. And I'm gonna say this is not the part where I'm like, This is how I do marriage. Like typically, we all know your marriage is perfect. It's okay. Oh no, typically, I'd be like, I'm fucking pissed. Yeah, I'm so fucking annoyed. And I would be like, You didn't give me enough time. You know that I want to be on time from my class. Baba. Baba Baba. Not like I'm an abusive asshole. But I would have gone to the place where like, I would have been like, I just can't do anything. But yes, and I was so conscious. saying the moment like, this is his experience, this is my experience. This is what happened. Like, let me respond thoughtfully. And also, here's another thing. When I blame, it's usually because I'm doing did like you said so thoughtfully, as you're like, taking notes on me is that their knee jerk reactions when I give myself time and I offer this to anyone who has a tendency to blame or to get very heated or whatever it is, to take the pause, right? Like, for me, it was the hour I moved my body I didn't, I always feel the need. And a lot of this does come from working in such high pressure environments, where I have to respond like in five seconds, I have started to like, really try to unravel that, like, I don't need to respond right away, even if it is making me even if I am having feelings about it, especially if I'm having feelings about it, like take a beat.

Yeah, that's what you just listed out, I think, is what I was trying to describe where I don't know that it's like, blame, but I think you used to be like, have this reaction of, I think of genuine and justify the anchor of like, that's why I asked for it this way. Or like, this is why, you know, like, it was more like, yeah, like this way you just react, you know, like exactly what you said, and you took the, you know, like you realizing it's not way like not giving you, you know, like, trying to fuck you up by like, not being there on time or giving you the time. It's like, exactly, it's like, it's, it's, it's two people trying to do a lot and take care of a third person, you know, like, yeah, it is the broader. And I think that is something I've noticed, and you'd like to what you're saying, like, I would agree that that's something I think you are making, you're forcing yourself in general, I think, to sit with discomfort more and more, all the time. It dissipates you know, like, and that's something like I think is important for all, like, all of us have to learn to sit in discomfort, I think it's, I remember saying in therapy, I was like, I have fucked myself over and made more mistakes in my life. Because I couldn't sit in discomfort than anything else. You know, like, that was when I did the dumbest shit or, you know, dated someone, or whatever that was when I did the dumbest stuff, you know. And I was like, I feel like a lot would change for him if I could build up my tolerance to discomfort. And she was like, ding ding ding. And it's in. It's true. And I think all of us have to remember that. And I think like, you know, this is, as you know, we wrap up and you had said that this is like to your point ages ago, like, Okay, I'm just gonna talk about even though this might be the least like, cool thing to ever say, but like, the how to be human, Instagram exploded. And we now have like, stalking about 40,000 followers on there, which hopefully, by the time this comes out, always it's like 44, we still do. And it's, it's all of a sudden put us in this like, weird arena. And we get like weird comments. And we have like, and it's it's like, we're learning how to do that. And it's also so interesting as we do want to be conscious and hold space for people. But it's like, we found this crazy thing where people, you know, are like, if we disagree with them? Are we just sort of like yeah, that's not what we're about. They're like, I didn't expect to come on this page and be attacked. And it's like, I think it's good for us all to learn like something unpleasant happening or something like is it the same as being attacked, you know, like, into trying to figure out what went wrong, or what part we played in something is not the same as blaming or assigning blame. Like, I think it's helpful to like, refresh, you know, ourselves on some of these themes. Because you're never our work is never done, you know, and that's not to say that we should treat ourselves as always being you know, i The example I use in therapy is like I need a quick treating myself like a gut renovation, you know, that I like keep having to like, oh, one day it'll be perfect or something. And it's like, no, it's like those new cabinets. Yeah, it's like think of yourself more in the terms of a house of like, yeah, houses are a lot of work or was kind of attending to them. Like there was somebody that could be done but it's like, I think if you if you tend towards blame in general that means like you you have you're struggling with discomfort and if you can try to find ways to tolerate discomfort, like it will help you in so many ways because when I was able to figure out that that was like a bit like that a lot of these other things I was struggling with boiled down to that essential truth that I had a real tough time with being uncomfortable. And I could just try to get myself to understand it discomfort like anything else temporary you changed a lot for me, you know?

Oh, yes, that is literally the takeaway of the day.

Let's get uncomfortable.

Seriously, that's it. I have nothing else to add. Thank you. Well, thank you for blaming me for all. Thank you all. With all the things I did okay. For blaming you for blaming people

we learned it's all Nina's fault.

Usually is but it isn't. Of course it isn't. My God.

It's actually a annoyingly very rarely Nina's fault. I have to say like, she has a good track record. I'll give her that like, so. That's why I can make the joke. That's funny because it's not true.

Well, we love hanging out with you guys. And we will be back next

week. Bye.

That's all for today's episode.

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