Central bank digital currency, CBDCs. Trump has just

said he's not having CBDCs. General stable coins

in the way that they exist right now, them being regulated, that's a sort

Mean coins, are they worth putting your money into?

So you really have this really unique instrument that I believe is tying culturally

how important is this particular thing right now. As much as it doesn't make

sense, we've never been able to sort of bridge what's happening in our social lives

and culturally what's relevant right now to something of value financially. In

10 years time it's gonna either seem super obvious that yes of

seen 15 states in the US who have indicated about

Can you risk not having even 0.5% of something in Bitcoin? Like

I think it's so big that the risk is having no exposure at

all. I'm Matthew Fraser and this

is Crypto Collective. After making millions with Amazon and

e-commerce, I realized that if I was starting again today,

crypto would be my first choice. I'm here to help

you take your first steps and build real wealth. Ready

to set yourself up for life? Let's go! Welcome

to Crypto Collective. My name is Matthew Fraser. And today's episode,

I've got a really special guest. It's Pav from SwiftX. He's

the market analyst there. He decides and tells everyone about

the market trends and what's happening in the crypto space. Welcome,

Awesome. Awesome. So good to have you here. And

I think it really is going to be great because we're going to be able to

dive deep into some of the insights that you have having sort

of the back-end knowledge and the analytics within SwiftX, one

of the Australian crypto exchanges. And just as, what

should I say, for full disclosure, I also do

use SwiftX for my trading as well. So

Pav, can I start off perhaps with some of the recent

announcements. I think that's probably the hottest topics. We've just seen Trump

inaugurated. He's done a range of things. I'll

I'm Obviously,

we've known for quite some time, Bitcoin and crypto has been a big part of

Donald Trump's administration's political campaign. And

I guess it really hasn't left much to sort of

be, you know, not happy about,

I guess, to find lack of a better word. We've seen a lot of clarity along

that there will be some sort of legislation or regulatory body framework coming likely

within the next 12 months is what they're gunning for. I think there's like

180 days for the current team that's being put

together with Cynthia Lumens heading it to

basically put forward a legislative or framework that they can

basically put Finally, some sort

of regulations around crypto in the US, and you hear Donald Trump himself saying

they want the US to be the home of crypto.

So they see it, I guess, as an opportunity to make more money. We

know Donald Trump, if anything, is a businessman. So I

mean, obviously, he sees this as an emerging market space. You

know, there's been a lot of things hindering or holding the market back for

quite some time in terms of being able to allow for that next

wave of adoption. You know, a lot of people have pointed to the outgoing chair

of the Securities and Exchanges Commission,

SEC, Gary Gensler, as being the prime reason why We've

got lawsuit after lawsuit against crypto products. We're now seeing

that whole regime shift take place right now. And I

think it was a few days before his exit, we saw even Trump

launch his own meme coin. I mean, these things are just happening

so quick and so fast that it's really sort

of taking our breath away in terms of where we're expecting the market to

have been by this stage in terms of maturity. But I

think another big piece of the puzzle that sort of was lifted recently was

some of the legislative restrictions on US banks being

able to custody and hold crypto assets. That's now been removed.

So it's really hard to sort of visualize what this whole

industry is going to look like, you know, the next one to two years. We

saw the ETFs doing amazing things for just the broader adoption of crypto with

the institutions. But now, you know, obviously we're going to move

into probably more retail heavy focus moving forward. You know, those

consumer protection guidelines, it looks like there's going to be a lot of clarity around them

at this stage, unless we, for some reason, see this whole momentum

stall for some reason. But there's a very clear direction

that there's going to be more answers than just random lawsuits

being thrown around for the first time in a long time. So I think that's a

breath of fresh air for all of us. I imagine like yourself, you know, we've been in crypto for a

Well, I've only been in since, I've known about crypto

for many, many years. I've only been in since 2022, funny

enough, so not that long. Although I've accumulated

what would be considered for most people a fairly small fortune.

Yeah, that's always good. 60% Bitcoin,

20, 25% Solana, and then a range of other altcoins, AI, et

cetera, in that sort of 20%. So that's kind of where

I sit. But, you know, one thing that we know

with, I mean, Bitcoin's a journey, and I'm forever learning,

and I'm just going through this phase right now, I'm just sucking in so many books, just

from a range of different people, any block I can find on Bitcoin, or

crypto in general. Can I just bring it back to Pav with one of

these particular initiatives that Trump has, he

hasn't said it's coming out, but Eric Trump, his son, said

about two days ago that they're talking about removing capital gains

tax on cryptos that are, I guess, made in America, you

could say, specifically Solana, XRP,

HBAR, and they even threw in Trump coin.

I think that's made in America on this line of blockchain. So

how do you think that's going to impact the

It's going to be very interesting and it definitely,

I guess you could say, is a bit of a mover and shaker type of approach

to something that's had no clarity to almost offering a

benefit to looking at this asset class if you're looking

for some sort of risk exposure for your portfolio, some volatility. Look,

it's very interesting. You could say like once again, you know, it sounds

like, you know, he's obviously got his own coin and he wants to make it

tax free when he's on the way out, which could be a reality of this all.

But, you know, if you're a, let's say someone actually trying to

build something, you know, in crypto, you look at the different jurisdictions that

are around the globe. there are a lot

of places that are already sort of 0% sort of havens from a capital gains

perspective because they're just looking to bring the industry towards them, right? So

if anything for me, it just makes the US more of

an attractive offering for some of the more innovative producers

and sort of tech leaders to come back to the US or maybe migrate

over to, you know, what you consider a more triple A or double A

reputation wise of a jurisdiction. But

look, it seems very colluded that you'd have your own

coin as well at the same time and you have it tax-free. So I

The fine print does say not investment type of

coin. I think it says not for making money, but

you can buy the meme coin. But Solana,

let's say Solana, XRP and HBAR, which is

some of the other ones that were highlighted. Do you think though about having this

no capital gains tax that we would see a higher price and

I think it would have some impact on the underlying demand,

let's say for sure. Because obviously the race everyone's concentrating right

now is Solana vs. ETH, which at this stage it

seems like ETH hasn't really caught up at all at any point in

time. But again, yeah, if there's going to be more and more developers

migrating across because they know there's going to be concessions for both their

users and for them as developers to move towards a chain that, you

know, again, they're looking to reinforce that sort of American exceptionalism,

even in the digital space. Look, I think it's going to have some impact. What

it's going to be, we won't know, but it definitely To

me, it just goes to show that they have an agenda and it's

US first across everything. And it just goes to show

that they're ready to set some pretty bold legislation

and rules in place to favor their own.

What do you see that from the analytics that you see

regarding Bitcoin? Because some people are saying that,

you know, Trump's in now. The price, I mean, the price

went down yesterday, essentially for us, not

necessarily because of Bitcoin per se, but for other, the

other things, I think, what's it called? SeekPeak or PeakSeek or something, some

Thank you, that one. Which I've also heard some whispers that

it may now be banned in the US.

But when we're talking about Bitcoin though, and Trump's now

in, and people are sort of, they're a bit concerned that now the

price isn't pumped, right? What do you see behind

Look, a lot of, if you remove, I guess, a lot

of the noise, you know, obviously the political tailwinds

and sort of headwinds that you can sort of see shifting, you know,

we've got this, you know, exiting of an anti-crypto regime to

now a very positive, like there's definitely tailwinds there. But

if we look back at what's actually happened to Bitcoin and its price and its history, you

know, it is tied and correlated very strongly to global liquidity.

You know, many, many commentators and analysts sort of point towards these similar

indicators, you know, the value of money. You know, we all look to Bitcoin, you

know, once you learn about Bitcoin, you learn about its inherent property is that it

holds its value, right? It's not inflationary. Like there's new coins being issued,

but there's no artificial dilution of

its supply. So that is our monetary system. So we'll

go through periods where the monetary system is inflationary or

deflationary. Like you look at somewhere like China right now, they're deflationary. So they're trying

to stimulate as much as they can their economy just through stimulus. And

then you have the US. We went through, let's just look at the COVID era. Obviously,

a lot of people finding themselves out

of work, they had to basically inject a whole bunch of money into the system, the

most we've ever seen in a short period of time. And as a result, we've

seen inflation go crazy these last three, four years, right? So, you know, everyone's food

bill went from $200 a week to 350 bucks a week, right?

Like that was a reality of what we've seen over the last five years. Everyone's

suffering, right? And that basically

sort of, you know, it sort of attributes what we see the valuation of

Bitcoin at any given time. It is definitely tied into these broader

macro prices because at the end of the day, you can value a house in

dollars or bricks of gold or Bitcoin. It's just the instrument

you're using to compare like for like, you know, it's what's the underlying value

there. So, you know, we sort of still Our analysis shows

us that the global liquidity factors, the three major economies that

really drive it are the US, China, and Japan. The

US really hasn't started their regime of easing. So we're still

in a relatively strict environment where they're not spending

or enabling large amounts of funds to be borrowed for growth.

And we've seen, I guess, one of the key messages in

the Trump campaign so far has been that he's going to focus on growth, American

exceptionalism. That comes at a price. So, you know, they're going to

have to basically issue liquidity for that to stimulate

growth locally. You know, all these tariffs that he talks about so they can

produce more on shore, you know, that doesn't happen without some

sort of help from the government to sort of help, you know, build that

sort of economic growth and activity, specifically in the manufacturing sector.

So I think focusing in on that specific zone, we would see

likely monetary policy that is favorable to crypto prices moving with

a bit more ease, as well as the US dollar that's been the strongest

it's been since 2022, probably start to keel over a bit at

this point in time. That would also be very positive tailwinds

for higher prices. So I sort of get what's what's

happened in the last two, three weeks even, crazy it's only

been that long, seen like very classic top indicators, you know, celebrities and

political, you know, personalities launching meme

coins that never really seems like a bottom signal. But

some of these more broader macro signals, like unless something goes wrong

and they're not going to stimulate their economy, it's hard for

Yeah, well not only that, I did see where Trump had said that

he was going to... The question was like, you know, are you going to reduce rates? You

just speak to the Fed and he's like, yeah. Like basically he's making

out like he's got his finger on the discount rates button. Pretty

A hundred percent. And this is like a great, I think this is good timing for

this recording. We have the official funding rate update coming this

week. So, you know, right now the market is pencilling

and there's going to be no change to rates. Again, surprise outcomes

drive a lot of volatility in our markets. And so, you know, one thing we're sort

of tentatively watching is, well, what if there is a surprise rate cut? No one saw coming.

And it is just, again, due to this new political shift. So

these are sort of unknowns that are never priced into the market. At

the same time, you could take away that a lot of the volatility that we're seeing in

the market this week, while a lot of people are speculating, it's all around this sort

of deepfake AI, not deepfake, sorry, I forgot

the name of it as well, the Chinese AI. It

also could just be pragmatic risk, sort

of risk off the table. We're approaching the end of the month. We've got some pretty key announcements

this week from a growth perspective in terms of

data, as well as inflation, as well as interest rates. So there's

a lot happening that may just result in just very normal sort

of profit taking potentially or hedging activities. Chinese New Year

as well. We just had the Lunar New Year. So that's been notorious for

some selling activity as well. So I think it's a culmination of things. Yeah,

overall we're still sort of positive in the short term of where

we could be. Q1 historically has been a good period for

Bitcoin, past halving year, so we're still expecting in the two next months

We've seen obviously the Trump coin, the Molina coin,

I think I got that right. We've seen Mr. Peanut coin, we've

seen F coin, I don't want to say the word, but we've seen the F coin

do extremely well in memes. From your side of things, why

are people so gravitated to meme coins?

What is the enticement there? And are they worth putting your

Yeah, it's a very good question. It's very interesting. I think this

will be a conversation that the understanding evolves, just

as just the general consensus evolves towards meme coins. I know for, you

know, if you spoke to about meme coins back in 2023 or 2022, kind of

laughed out the door. I think it's almost like one of

those I think sectors of the market where

in 10 years time it's gonna either seem super obvious that yes

of course meme coins would work or why did anyone think that's a good

idea I just think what makes it so appealing is

a lot of people you know as much as it doesn't make sense a lot of people can

sometimes understand what at least this cryptocurrency is

representing so let's take for example the Trump coin You're not necessarily investing

in it to get exposure to Donald Trump's empire. You're more betting on

a, you know, this is a person of influence. Other people are going to

agree that there's a value to how much influence or power that they sort of

have in the local geopolitical space or

even just socially speaking. And they're going to basically invest

in it because they see that it's a market, people can trade it. Again,

like even just general memes, like we've had dog with hat, you know, through last year,

we've had that particular coin that you mentioned as

well. If it's funny enough or can capture, I

guess, socially, culturally, what people are feeling and invested

in just personally right now, they might be willing to invest some of their money in

it too because it's just something of novelty. It's never

really existed before. We've never been able to sort of bridge, I think,

the social you know, what's happening in our social lives and

culturally what's relevant right now to something of value financially. So

you really have this really unique instrument that I

believe is tying, you know, culturally how

important is this particular thing right now. So, you know, the peanut the squirrel is

a great example. And the whole US election has been a great example, just

as that sort of progressed over the months and weeks, there was

different means that were more absorbing the

collective sort of attention at that period of time. And obviously

the value of that happened as well. So like another great ones like MuDeng, the

Pygmy Hippo, that was everywhere and you saw the price of that

coin go higher, but you know, right now it's not as culturally relevant, right?

So we're not seeing that particularly take off too well. So I think what

it does for meme coins is two things, you know, obviously we have this,

it seems like infinite spinning wheel of activity and just

seeing what's relevant to the culture and the zeitgeist right

now. But it also means if you've invested in some of these coins that

were funny three to six months ago, they may never come back because they may never

be in the spotlight again, right? So it really is an

interesting landscape where I think it's harder to be relevant and hold that

value if it is purely culturally based. But

at the same time, it just creates a very rapidly changing environment that

I think a lot of people might find appealing. It's just very hard

A couple of takes on that one, Pav, because one is, I remember

the NFT sort of saga, and

everyone was buying the Ape Coins or the Bored Apes or something

like that, right? And it just seemed totally insane to me that people were

paying like, I'm sure it was six figures, multiple six

figures, maybe even seven figures for these. just like

the the ape which which I think you

talked about you know in the future we'll look back and think oh that was that probably wasn't such

a great idea I'm already looking back and thinking that was a stupid idea but

that's because I didn't buy them either so I didn't I didn't lose

any money didn't win any money so to speak but I think you hit

the nail on the head though with the meme coins it's actually it's

like a um culturally, a

cultural novelty, like a cultural novelty

type thing, right? People just buy into it and, oh, this is fun.

I think to a degree, though, there's definitely a sense of I

could put $100 into this and it could get to $100,000. So,

I think so. I think it's everyone sort of invests for a reason, right?

It's to pull out more than what you put in. So I think you just think about

it like a lot of people may not be able to pull apart the performance

of a company and understand how they're making their profits versus expenses

and how they're raising cap to go build and expand and globalize, etc.

So how do they value a stock? Whereas a meme coin, if

there's a whole bunch of GIFs going around right now and you know that it's funny and it's spreading

like wildfire with all your friends, well maybe other people would, you know, maybe

that would represent a meme coin. And that meme coin could have some intrinsic value at

that time and everyone buys it up. And, you know, if you get in early enough,

the thought or the idea is that that is going to capture enough of, you

know, the cultural mind at this point in time that more people would buy it. So

it's sort of, It's something that I don't think makes sense

if you try to measure it by how things have always been done, but it sort of

provides, I think, a different way of trying to,

I guess, get people to sort of buy into an idea

or something that represents, in this case, like a meme. It's

very different. But at the same time, I

can't get it because everyone sends emojis and memes all the time. So

I heard another take on the Trump coin though, and that was that Trump

has now set the stage for other companies and celebrities in

the tokenization of their personal brand. And

so they can buy into the Nike brand, the Michael

Jordan brand, or whatever the celebrity is, which I think is really,

really interesting. Last sort of thing on the meme coins,

because of your inside knowledge, everyone would want to know, well, have

you got your ear to the ground on these things? You mentioned a couple of

Oh, up and coming is hard. Only because like we

talked about, well, up and coming as in like growth, because if

it is growth, it's... Yeah, I guess, you know, I

Okay, pretend we're not recording this. Which...

No, I've got a good answer here. Okay. I got a good

answer. I think we can look at, you know, patterns that we've

seen already play out. And I think the market does

intrinsically look for things that look familiar. So let's

look at the Bitcoin ETF, right? There was the Bitcoin ETF

got announced. There was actually quite a lot of buying leading up to it

in 2023. Yes, we had the ETF listing in January and it was a bit lackluster, price

didn't go everywhere. But ever since then, we've seen nothing but crazy rampant

buying for this Bitcoin ETF, right? So the idea that there's going

to be meme coins now that represent ETFs as well, I

think that's a game changer. You're going to open up, you know, the accessibility

for a market that's much larger. There's going to be more demand for those assets outside

of like traditional ways to get exposure to crypto. So already you

have a group of meme coins, in my opinion, that are going to

have an edge on the rest of the market. So some of the meme coins that

they're looking to make ETFs for that there's currently filings for, to my knowledge, obviously

Trump, Melania coin, Dogecoin and Bonk. So

they're kind of on my sort of radar of ones that obviously when

the market is accepting of meme coins, the same way they're accepting of

like you mentioned NFT's last cycle, you're going to get access to

it either through a traditional crypto exchange or you're just going to use your sharebroker account

and just purchase it through that. So I think that's a very obvious

place to be looking right now. And then to break down the

two there, obviously Doge and Bonk, you know, both dog coins,

one on the Solana network, one on its own network. And

then you've obviously got the whole meme around Elon and the Department of

Government Efficiency, Doge, and even the Dogecoin being

on their website very briefly before being pulled down. There's just

So, so good. And I'm pretty sure he's yet to launch Dogecoin 1, the

satellite too, so he might see that sometime soon as well. But

that's where I would be looking, to be honest. There's a lot of like getting in the trenches and

finding, you know, really low caps that, you know, again, the market's

finding is relevant right now that you obviously could

invest in and you may make something off, but the risk is much larger there. And

I would still say that the risk is larger on these assets as well. But

in terms of like measuring what we've seen in the past play out now for a

meme coin category, that's something different. It's never happened before. So

Okay. Well then, while you're giving us

some insights, what would you say is the most

relevant, I guess, narrative within altcoins that you're

It's been interesting. I think there's two main, well, there's three main ones, really.

I think it's been heavily led by meme coins. There's just no

doubt about that. That's the majority of trading volumes that we're seeing

on decentralized exchanges. It's the most amount of tokens being created. AI

has been a carryover category since about

the late 2022s that have continually, again, found

speculative interest. It's, I think, appeared on the top

search results on CoinGecko repeatedly now. And

then thirdly, the most common one is your infrastructure tokens. So,

you know, who's building the next Solana killer? That's a common theme.

Tell us now, without a doubt, you've heard

it on the Crypto Collective podcast. What is the

We'll wait to see it, but Sui is definitely a front runner and a contender. I

like it. They've got obviously a good team behind them. I think they've got a very clever

marketing team as well. They've obviously gone and so

far outperformed quite a fair chunk of the market for

the last couple of months. Obviously, we've seen Sui move quite

a bit in the last two months when the rest of the market was, you could say, relatively quite

flat. So it's looking good at this stage, but

there's also other infrastructure tokens that may not be relevant

right now, but may be relevant in the near future. So you have these

chain-specific infrastructures. So for example, you've got gaming chains,

you've got AI chains, you've got... Are you talking about like Payback or

something? Yeah, you've

got IMX, which is specifically gaming. There's that

one too. But AVAX as well, they're very heavy in the gaming space as well.

So you have a lot of these other niche chains

that might potentially gather some interest as we get more active users back

to the market. And that's another way to... They're

So it was Layer Ones, Infrastructure, AI,

and Meme Coins, which is fascinating. You said that Meme Coins

No, that's on just global decentralized exchange volumes. On

our platform, we're mainly seeing the blue chips usually.

To be honest, I think the top three in the last 12 months have been Bitcoin, Solana

and XRP. So interesting there, Ethereum not

on the top three in the last 12 months, but the market definitely favors the

top 10 at this stage at least. They seem

to be the ones obviously moving and performing the best concurrently.

Yeah, interesting. So now thinking

about the year ahead, do

you guys sort of put out some sort of list of, you know, we think these

are going to be the top performing coins for 2025. Is

Not yet. We're a bit sort of under the pump and scarce of resources

at the best of times. We'd love to spend some time and do some research in

that way, but we do provide regular snapshots of

different sectors of the market. So, for example, we did a piece on

the Solana ecosystem before it really blew up, and we mentioned a couple of

the key players in that space, like Jupyter, Jido, And

then even some of the meme coins like Bonk in that example. And

then, you know, even understanding like the AI sector. So like we do have

research reports that we put together. They're put together, I think, at

least one or two a month we have. And sort of deep diving into

AI. So, you know, what's, how do you even go about investing in the AI sector?

So understanding like there's different ways to get exposure. And then

And what's your take then, Pav, on stablecoins and

Very bullish. If I had to say, I think that's the most bullish sector

for me when it comes to making sure we don't... The

one issue we always have with every bull run is obviously that massive retracement, right?

It's liquidity exiting the crypto space and just going back into the

regular, the world of liquidity, right? So if there's no money

in the system, how can prices stay high? You know, with stablecoins,

they offer, I think, two really unique opportunities right now. I

think there is a massive push for regulating them and

regulation of stablecoins will obviously create more use cases. And

if there's more use cases that, you know, generate yield on

chain for some of these stablecoins through like traditional banks, that's

going to give another reason for stablecoins not to be, you know, sold off into

fiat dollars. I also think stablecoins again,

will probably be one of the first real use cases, hopefully, for

something called the Real World Asset Tokenization Scheme.

So I know Larry Fink, CEO of BlackRock, big proponent and

supporter of tokenization of assets. So what we're talking about there

is imagine if you held a stable coin in your digital wallet

and every day you received a yield. So instead of

putting it in your traditional bank, we have to wait at the end of every month, cycle

for your bill to get your interest payment. you know, this new sort of

emerging technology class, you know, it allows you to accrue it daily. So

then you have, I said, a greater effect on compounding. The

user benefits at the end of the day. But also for, you know, someone like

the US, it allows them to fractionalize and sell off more of

their government debt a lot faster as well. So it creates, it's sort of

like one hand feeds the other in a sense. It's almost like the new way of potentially, you

know, having that version two of the money system, the digital money system. But

the real obvious risk there is like centralized digital currencies, which again

have been, you know, dismissed at this stage that they're not going to be a thing

where the government can track how you're spending your money. But private bank

issued stable coins or bank supported stable coins, that seems to

be something that doesn't look like it's going to stop. I think it's going to get

So you're talking about central bank digital currency, CBCs? Because

Trump has just said he's not having CBDCs, interestingly

enough. In Australia, there has been a push by the current government to

No, so I would say like that's a sort of solution that

we don't want, but just general stablecoins in the way that

they exist right now, them being regulated and having regulated

products where you can do what you do at your normal bank, but do

it in crypto land, let's call it. I think that's going

to be a massive trend to watch because then we're talking, you know, billions,

if not trillions of dollars, you know, remaining in the crypto ecospace and

not going back and being converted into fiat. And there's already numerous

benefits that are seen there. I think the A16Z report

that everyone can download, that's a pretty well-known report, looked

at the cost for some of the major banks to just transfer funds.

It's anywhere from, I think it's an average of $44 just to move money around.

Obviously, if you're doing that through stable coins and using something like a scalable

layer two, it's costing a fraction of a cent. So there's

lots of incentive there for even the big banks to get on board. And a

lot of that, what I mentioned at the top of the show, that legislation

now allowing banks to custody and hold digital assets is

now possible. It opens up the door for some of these solutions to get,

I think, past the door, past regulation, past

and have a legislative framework. So then, We've

always speculated on what's the use case for crypto. Like this is a real one. It's quite serious,

like settlement times. So we could really see

that materialize in the next 12 to 24 months. And I think that's really exciting for

It's a bit boring. Yeah, well, I love it

because I come from a mortgage broker background, many moons ago,

many moons ago. So I sort of understand a bit about lending. And

what I think is really, really powerful right now is actually the removal

of the sub-121 in the States because it opens up the doorway now

for Australian banks as well. Now, I did hear through, it

was actually Peter Dunworth that I heard this from, that he said

that two out of the four major banks are already looking at frameworks to custody Bitcoin.

which would make sense. Yeah. And where I

think that's going to be powerful is it will open

up the doorway for people who potentially are not not

thinking about we want to have to set up this fund and go to an exchange and buy Bitcoin

and hold it. Right. You know, we don't have to deal with that. So I think

either, you know, maybe SWIFTX partners with ANZ Bank,

for example. So they become the pathway to ANZ Bank.

Essentially, you could maybe even buy it through ANZ. which

is done directly through sort of in the back door through Swift X, because they've got

the infrastructure to do that, then it's held in ANZ Bank. So

when someone goes onto their net bank, and they've got

their savings account, the cheque account, the credit card, the home loan, and then there's their

Bitcoin account, right? That's where I think it's going to,

and by doing that, I think it's gonna open up the door to more

people to come into the Bitcoin community. It makes

it, you know, like in Australia, I say that people actually

do trust Australian banks. They may not trust banks

But no one wakes up in the morning and thinks, oh my god, ANZ banks

are going to steal my money today. So they do have

Yeah, and it may even open the door through further regulation along the

lines of, you know, this legislation lifting or what's the next thing that comes, you know,

enabled and, you know, we might get insurance products then finally for crypto. Like

a lot of people have been asking for a long time for some sort of insurance offering, even

if it costs a premium, they would just want to be protected. you know, if there's a

bank custodying these assets, obviously that risk framework might seem

more appealing for insurers and it's a whole different landscape then. And we

get all this sleuth of insurance products that come out. And then

you have like maybe even insurance from, you know, staking, slashing

and stuff like that. There's all these different potential use cases that come off the back of,

Yeah, because we used to have staking, right? I think... We did. We

had staking in Australia. Now, I don't know what happened there, but do you know what you got? You got banned

It's, yeah, just up for clarity from

a regulatory perspective. So, again, I think a

lot of what's happening in the US is going to lead the way for how things are

done. Let's say, for example, here in Australia, some

of those sort of standards and practices. We've already got the tokenization mapping exercise carried

out at the moment. I think it's at a consultative phase at the moment where they're

taking, basically, opinions from people

in the industry on the proposal structure and way to go about regulating crypto.

So there is movement happening on ground here in Australia, but I

still do feel like if someone as big as the US takes charge, takes

the lead, the rest will sort of, you know, over time try

to keep up, especially if it's seen as a growth industry, which

Can I ask you about adoption? We've got massive

institutional adoption. Obviously, MicroStrategy

would be probably the number one institutional adopter, and it would say, I

guess, with the ETFs, BlackRock and what have you. But we've also seen

now 15 states come to mind in

the US who have indicated about setting

up a Bitcoin strategic reserve. Obviously, you've got Trump

has obviously announced that as well. What are you hearing

on the ground as far as also, I guess, other countries and what do you think sort

I think it's a very obvious one in the sense that when one starts, the

rest follow. So again, we're looking at the US lens

specifically, but I think it's going to be a shift

in momentum for holding. It's just going to be one of those things of can you risk not

having even 0.5% of something in Bitcoin? Is

it too risky not to have any? I think there's going to be potentially a lot of

questions being asked in that vein. But I

think Again, if we're talking about big catalysts, I still

think that's still yet to come. If we do see one start, then

the next start, then the next start, what effect does that have globally? I

I think it's so big that the risk that the retail investor

It pains me. I don't know why it pains me that other people don't have it because if

they don't have it, it doesn't matter to me. You

know, my friends and family for sure, I'm like begging them, you have to

be a part of this. And I think because I'm watching crypto media

news every day, I digest it every day, I basically

live and breathe it. And of course, you're not a true Bitcoiner until you've got

a baseball cap, right? With a B

on it, and a neon sign in the background. Exactly,

that's it. Yeah, so I'm super bullish on what's gonna happen with that space

there. Can you talk about perhaps Bitcoin

lending? And for example, what

I've just, I've used Block Earner, and I know Block Earner,

you've probably heard of in Australia, and I've gone down that path of experimenting with

their platform. It's not something that SwiftX currently

does, correct? Maybe it's something that SwiftX will do in the

future as well, is lend on Bitcoin. But can

you talk about Bitcoin lending and the impact that will have in

I think it just opens up the door for more use cases, right? Like you're saying,

like at the end of the day, Bitcoin is one thing at its purest, it's

collateral. So it's worth something that, you know, in

its history, it's gone up, you know, every four

years, it's making new highs, right? In line with the halving. So what

it enables you, obviously, if you've realized it to a point where

you're like, all right, I'm happy with the value of this collateral asset, you're

able to take out basically a loan against it

using that as a collateral. As long as you're, obviously

this is for everyone to sort of suss out for themselves, like not over collateralizing

themselves and going into liquidation or anything like that. I think a lot

of these products, they are at this stage quite consumer

focused and making sure that there's not too much inherent risk. for using the products,

but everyone just needs to take that into their own sort of hands. But

it enables another use case, right? So, you know, there's

not really a situation where, well, there are maybe some, but like,

you know, holding shares in a company, once you have them, you can't really do too much

else with them. you know, where at least if you have something like Bitcoin as

an asset that is worth, you know, X amount as collateral, you can

use that to then go and engage in a loan and pay that back over time. So,

I guess the closest thing we have right now is, you

know, mortgaging and real estate, you know, having a house, you go and

refinance, your house has gone up maybe 10% in the last

1 to 2 years. So, that gain you're then able to

redraw against, right? And maybe make some improvements or go make some other investments.

That's That's kind of the same way to sort of visualize it as how it would work for

Bitcoin. But yeah, definitely a space that I

think once we sort of see Bitcoin

become more mainstream, it'll probably be more demand for it. And it's

definitely an area that we as a business are looking into as well. But it's

Yeah I'm really excited about it obviously because I've experimented with it as

well because I want to sort of share within the crypto collective community

how this actually works in real time and

what's interesting is you know you can lend up to right now

it's 40% LVR 9.5% rate so you've got to think in your mind is Bitcoin going

to go up more than 9.5% this year and I mean last year did 120 plus percent so it was a no-brainer And

I think also what I actually did, just as a side note, is I just went back and bought

more Bitcoin. So I borrowed the 40% and went back

and bought more Bitcoin with the 40%. Yeah, so

awesome. We've touched on a lot of really interesting things actually in this, but all those

things, I could go down lending for like another hour. I

think it's been really, really good. Pav, thank you so much for coming on to today's

episode. We've touched on so many amazing topics. There's so many

I could have gone even deeper on. But for those who are listening today,

just please thank Pav for coming on. He's the market analyst there at SwiftX. For

those of you who do want to come on board and join SwiftX, they do

have a special promotion, $20 of free Bitcoin. All

you have to do is use the link in the show notes of

this episode and you can get your $20 of free Bitcoin using

Cheers. Thanks for tuning in to Crypto Collective. If you've enjoyed this

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of me at I'm Matthew Fraser on all