Jess.

Let's be brutally honest.

If you could tell homeowners one thing about their living spaces that

they absolutely don't want to hear, but desperately need to, what would

it be and why are we so blind to it?

There are so many answers to this, but my mind just goes straight to windows.

They're costing you money if you don't get them right.

And they

are

Creating

unhealthy spaces

if you

don't get them

right.

Why, are they costing us money?

Well, they're the biggest hole in the

envelope that there

is.

So

there's, it's a lot of heat gain and

Thermal, wound, if you will.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Lots of heat gain,

lots of heat

loss.

, and

they're, they're hurting the envelope

because of

the huge amount of thermal conductivity in the frames.

If they're aluminum,

the cheap ones.

Um,

and they're, they're condensating

and they're, creating

mold issues,

so.

Spend

more money on your windows in the outlay and, uh, make

them smaller.

you were just in Europe.

Yes.

And so the difference in Windows is vastly different.

What that well, what we see in our space are the

same, but what we see as a broader.

Viewing the, the Australian construction

world and the Australian homes, they're completely different.

Do we just talk about

Yeah.

Actually, when I went

over to Europe, I wasn't thinking about

construction window.

I wasn't thinking about how different the houses were gonna be.

I was

just thinking about going on the school holiday.

But as soon as I got there, it was immediately obvious to me how

different their construction is.

their doors and their windows are what we consider high

performance.

and of course they

get snow where I was, and so that's a necessary

thing.

But,

uh, we also get very, very

cold here, and that seems to just.

Slipped people's minds when they're designing their homes.

It's bizarre, isn't it?

you are

in town

right now

because you, uh, thank you by the way.

Uh,

no worries.

A part of our SBA event today,

and we're talking

about, um, health and wellbeing

in buildings.

And a big part of what you do is about trying to make that

environment inside as healthy as

possible.

So

we

touched on mold.

Can you tell us a bit about mold?

And why it's

bad.

25 to 30% of the population has a high mold sensitivity.

Yep.

And those people

cannot

be in moldy buildings.

they

have severe health impacts, such as, uh, chronic fatigue

is one of the really big ones.

And I think there are a lot of, a lot of people sort of running

around the country with all these

severe, uh,

health.

Ailments that they don't actually connect with their living environment.

you know, the health professionals in Australia don't make

that connection for them.

And so there's a, there's a huge information gap there.

stats are that 40% of Australian homes, new Australian homes

and apartments have got mold in

them.

In my experience,

it's.

Probably

a hundred percent because mold,

' cause you, you hit, you hit

the, you said something just there like mold is everywhere.

Yes.

so what is the mold that's actually making us

sick?

The, there's toxins in the mold, so,

I mean, I

couldn't give you the exact ins and outs of how it works.

Yeah.

there's a biotoxin in mold that, uh, is, is airborne.

Um, and you can disturb it, you know, if you've got mold growing on your

curtains, for example.

Yeah.

Like you've got a window.

That condensates over and over again and

the curtains get damp and they grow mold over

time.

when you disturb those curtains, uh, the mold spores, there's a plume of

mold SREs and you, we breathe it in, you can't see and you breathe it in.

Yep.

it affects, uh, your lungs and it affects, your immune system.

Yep.

I think there's pretty high cases.

Um, there was a study from South Australia, I'm pretty sure from

memory it was 50% of Australian homes

have mold that is directly linked to childhood

asthma.

Yeah, asthma's huge.

Asthma's huge.

Um, those

stats, I'm, again not a hundred percent sure of, but, um,

respiratory issues are massive and, you know, in connection to mold.

go back to this chronic fatigue thing for a second.

Mm-hmm.

Because that's interesting.

kind of, my mind goes to, Um,

' glandular fever when I

think about chronic

fatigue.

you have it when you were

a

kid?

I had

glandular fever when I

was

a kid.

Yeah.

Kissing too many

girls.

I tell you

what,

when I got

Is

that why you wanted to

up?

When I got G?

No, no.

just

a gloat.

No, no, no.

When

I

got glandular fever,

I

definitely was not

kissing girls.

Um,

if you had to see me at that

age,

I, you probably know why.

Um,

but yeah, like

it's interesting because like we

kind

of put chronic fatigue.

In like a little bucket over here and, and don't generally

relate it to maybe where we live.

Or sleep or spend 80 to 90% of our time.

So

like is, are there actually studies

that sort of make that link between mold and chronic fatigue?

There

are,

yeah.

So

there's, um, there's a guy

in the US called Richie Shoemaker.

Yep.

And

he is sort of the, the CS

guy.

He's

the

doctor.

Oh,

okay.

Yep, yep.

serves his chronic inflammatory response syndrome, and that is an umbrella

term for the multitude of illnesses that come from.

Mold exposure.

So it's basically an inflammatory response in the body.

So

is

sirs, SERC,

chronic inflammatory response syndrome.

So it's, it encompasses so

many different things.

Um, I have a slide in one of

my presentations that lists all of

them.

There's, there's must be

30

or 40

different.

So ailments that are directly related to mold exposure, that

sort of is not commonly known.

Alright,

so we

agree.

Mold equals bad.

We don't want mold in our buildings.

I

mean, generally, even if you're not susceptible to mold, if you're not Mold

sensitive, You kind of don't want it

anyway 'cause it's.

it's it's unsightly

just

getting some white king and bleaching it off.

No

Bleach, definitely not.

it will kill the surface mold and it will make the color go away.

Um, but it doesn't kill the roots.

Of the

mold So,

the only

way to get rid of it is to remove.

Remove it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's where I wanted to get at because I think people have this

idea where bit of paint, bit of white king, it's all good, it's all

gone, but it's what you can't see.

This is actually what is hurting you.

Yeah.

And you can kill mold, but it's all it needs is a little bit of dampness and

moisture and it'll come straight

Yeah.

So now you, you're talking about, uh, doctors and the medicine side of things.

Why isn't it recognized by doctors and medicine as an issue?

There was

a research

paper done in 2018, uh, the sort of, I forget the name of it, the research

into biotoxin illness in Australia.

Um, and it was done in Victoria, I think in

the state.

Yeah.

I've read parts of

it and there were

so many

patients

and health practitioners who came to the front who ca. Put their

hand forward and said, this is my

experience and blah, blah, blah.

and essentially the Australian medical

response was,

we're just gonna put that over here, umbrella term of things

that we don't understand.

Um, right.

And it was sort of dismissed by and large by that

study from the, the parts of that

study that I

have read,

Which is pretty frustrating.

for those people who have to live in tents in their back garden because they

can no longer be inside their houses.

Do you know what is frustrating

that.

The

NCC, which is, I guess what, dictates how we build here in

Australia has made that connection.

Now, let put it in the 2022, um, NCC updates, but they've quite nicely handball

that responsibility onto the builder.

Yeah.

It's if, if anyone actually pulled that clause outta the

code and said, I'm gonna sue you

because my

house

is moldy,

it's actually very vague as to.

Where that buck actually stops.

you know, because there's a whole raft of people who have an input in Absolutely.

How works.

Totally.

down, you know, to the, the energy assessor, the architect,

the builder, the client,

you know?

Yeah.

that's really interesting actually, that you talk about the client

because.

Say I could build a passive house.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

And the clients could turn their HIV off and they

could

mm-hmm.

Um, close all their windows and they could actually create an

environment where there's mold.

Mm. Yeah.

They could.

So, you know, we build these homes where we think that, the

clients are gonna thrive in this

environment, but they could be a one star client

and,

um, create this really toxic environment and they're gonna get sick.

So

So.

where

does

the

buck stop?

Yeah, it's, that's really, it's a really interesting point that you make there.

Yeah.

The co

the clause in the code requires

some,

some

further development and it

requires some, you know, interpretation

and, and someone to actually clarify.

'cause at the moment it's, it's in there and it's sort of.

Waking people up and it's making people think.

But it's

still

very vague.

It is very vague.

And I think without the, the, and this is where we think that there's

shortcomings in the NCC, there might

be just one or two,

just one, or gimme just a couple,

one or two.

one or two, because you know, we wanna stop mold

that's coming from Mr. Switzerland too,

but

then there's no,

but then there's no requirement

for mechanical ventilation.

But

we want to make sure the

buildings are really well

ventilated, and then we're gonna put a class four wrap over the

entire building.

Are we not creating an environment

that's probably susceptible to mold

if we're not

then ventilating properly?

Yes.

So in the 2025 code, um, are you talking about cavity ventilation?

Are we talking about, I'm just

talking

about

dis ventilation

in the house.

I mean the, the code currently.

It

doesn't,

code currently says

that you just need to be able to open your windows and

doors.

Yeah.

And they need to be

built in, designed in a way

to potentially

prevent water ingress.

Yeah.

I'm pretty sure that's how it's written.

It's like it has to have the ability to

Anyway, we, we, we're, I'm gonna put

my

switch on hat back on again, because Rashish can the

NCC, but I think That that,

what, what I want

to

talk about is mold

is bad.

And what is it that you do in your daily life?

Mm-hmm.

That

helps educate people or train people on how to create a

really healthy living environment.

Uh, majority of that comes down to, uh,

sort of the management of heat, air,

and moisture, um, and how that is done on site.

So I work primarily with builders and clients.

I'm finding that the drive

from clients

is quite strong.

clients will go to a

builder such as yourselves, and then sometimes

that, that price point is out of their budget.

they'll go to a, a builder who gives them a lower price.

Yeah.

And then they'll circle back to me and they'll say, Hey, Jess, can

you help me do all that cool stuff?

But with

this builder?

Mm. My first question is, does the builder

wanna know about this?

Yeah.

and so

that's a large

part of my job is, going on site, talking to builders,

getting on the phone, looking at plans, like,

working out how far I can push it with each individual

builder.

Yeah.

How do you refer to yourself?

Are you a building scientist, building biologist?

building

science consultant is sort of what I've

knuckled it down to because when someone asks me what I do I'm like.

I

don't know how to

tell you.

And you're going down the

journey of this building, biologists.

Yeah.

And do you wanna just tell us what that

is?

So building

biology is basically just a study of the home and the, the,

the, how it impacts your health.

there's a, a course that I'm doing through the Australian College of Environmental

Studies with a lady named Nicole

Bilmore.

She's fabulous.

Um, was She on your podcast?

She was, yeah.

I listen, she wasn't my Yeah, yeah, yeah.

yeah.

Episode.

Three.

Three,

I think.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yep,

yep.

so she is the, the sort of

director of the college.

Um,

she is sort of leading that building biology industry in Australia

and has been doing for some

time.

I mean, building biology is the study of the home and the

health impacts that it has.

So the

subjects of things like, uh, mold is obviously the first one.

Yeah.

There's two very large mold subjects.

Then there's, uh, you know, low to materials.

There's,

uh,

water, like subjects on water, um, Feng shui.

Yeah, because it also comes

down to

the soul.

This is where wellbeing, is where I wanna get at, because I feel like building

biology has this woowoo hippie, I'm gonna do a rain dance out in an open field view.

I don't

think so.

I, I, I reckon that's a general, I what people would feel.

I think it's Matt's general.

but I think that's what the industry, a lot of people would feel it's that

way, but like for us, this is just.

How you should build this is, is, this is

bread and butter stuff.

Yeah.

Like the mold

stuff is what

attracted me to building biology.

Yeah.

Um, feng shui is kind of like a cool.

Addition because how

you feel in a

space

affects your wellbeing.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

I mean, I, I listened to a podcast the other day.

I can't remember whose it was, and I had a

FA couple lately Fway expert on it, and I'm

like,

it actually sounds pretty

fucking cool.

Yeah.

I just wanna get back to your,

your mentor.

What was her name again?

Nicole Billman.

Nicole.

Okay.

Because.

I was listening to your,

podcast and for those who, dunno, what's your,

podcast called?

The Building Psychology Party.

Thank

you.

Play Plug.

Um, she had a really

interesting story about

pregnancy.

Yes.

And like,

you know, as someone who's,

who's gone

through

stuff with pregnancy and

had babies

and all that kind

of stuff, like, It's a pretty traumatic place to be in.

And

listening to her story about

how many miscarriages does she have?

10.

Like 10.

10

And

now she's got three children.

Happily.

Yeah.

10, miscarriages.

Yeah.

10. Yeah.

But what was really interesting about her and I, and

I, and I

always

kind of take

these kinds of stories 'cause

they're quite anecdotal, right?

Mm-hmm.

Now,

However,

the evidence.

From her experience, she moved rooms.

Yeah.

So she attributed her miscarriages to, uh, osteopathic stress and

EMFs.

Which is pretty

crazy right now.

I am gonna be the first

person to say

I am

not convinced on EMFs just yet.

Yeah.

right?

And, I think that's fine.

I'm on the fence too.

Yeah.

I'm

gonna say I'm on the fence.

Right?

Mm-hmm.

I know

So I think

that I, I, I think that they are a load of potential crap, but I also think that

there is, you shouldn't be living next to a 5G tower or putting your modem or your

solar invert at the back of your bedhead.

So I, whilst I think a lot of it is a lot of crap, I also think

a lot of it is also relevant.

I think the issue

is people just jump to the whole end of the other scale

and focus on things like this.

EMFs exist.

They, they they exist.

no study that has actually been independently taken out or has

been peer reviewed that shows there're an issue within the Australian household.

I've googled this a couple of times.

If you go onto the WHO website, the World Health Organization.

Their opinion

is that in some circumstances with some immunocompromised people, maybe

sometimes pregnant people can be impacted.

By EMS.

There's

one study on pregnant women in a household around, uh, cooktops.

That's it.

But, but only between certain periods of a certain stuff.

Yeah.

I

think Nicole's PhD was on EMS.

Yeah.

So I ha I would be interested to read that,

but it wasn't, yeah.

Like it.

For people who haven't listened to that podcast episode with Nicole, it is

worthwhile going back and listening to it.

'cause it really is an interesting thing just to make you think.

Yeah.

If that's all it does, then I think it's.

Doing the right

thing, just

being aware woo woo stuff.

Like I feel a lot of it is pushed so far down the other end where it

feels like you've gotta wear a tinfoil hat to be part of that conversation.

And I think sometimes, like simple shit, we always say, simple shit works.

We've gotta bring it back to the basics and educate people

around, Hey, don't put the solar inverter at the back of a bad head.

And just start with that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like you you wean people onto the conversation then then

make you can alienate people.

Yeah.

And make them feel stupid yeah.

Yeah.

Make, Yeah.

Make them, make people feel scared and use fearmongering to then push that agenda.

Uh,

we're talking about cost and cost of building and, you know, some people might

not be able to afford to build a passive house or the homes that Matt and I build.

What are the three things, and I'm just randomly picking three.

What are the three things that you would say are absolute,

like must haves in any building?

blow it or test?

Yes.

Okay.

So air tightness.

What quantifying your air tightness.

Quantifying air tightness that understand how to ventilate it appropriately.

Oh, yes.

I love

that.

I love that.

Um,

so you don't necessarily have to build airtight, but you just have to

understand where your air tightness is at in order to make it a healthy place.

And we're talking about like a 800 to a thousand dollars exercise here.

Correct?

Yeah.

Okay.

So quantifying air tightness.

Yeah.

We should be mandatory in the N ccc.

Let's just put that like how that is

but let's also point out the NCD does say that we should be building to the, it

says in the NCC that all Australian homes should be no more than 10 air changes.

O optional.

Is that optional?

Yes.

How can you have something that

you can do it, but it's also you have to do it, but it's

also it, it's all optional.

It's

a performance solution, so you can, you can make sure that your windows are

kind of sealed or able to be sealed.

Okay.

I thought.

I thought.

Or you can make sure that your exhaust fans are sealed, are able to be sealed,

or you can do a blow or test to.

To comply with the building ceiling section of the building code.

So it's not, it's not compulsory.

I,

okay.

So that's number one.

Quantifying air tightness.

Yes.

Quantify your air tightness so you can understand what you're

dealing with because it's invisible.

Yeah.

, the second thing is then we're bridging.

So if you have any steel, please, please insulate insulated externally.

Clear.

Alright, so quantifying

anti thermal bridges, managing thermal bridges.

Yep.

Uh, including, I put window frames

correct.

In that

I was gonna say, but you've said three and then you haven't put

windows, which the most important.

I was like, please, please windows.

Windows is in

thermal bridging.

Yep.

Um, so, you know, upgrade your windows, your window frames as much as you can.

and the third one, non non-negotiable would be, , , check your insulation

when it's being installed.

Make sure that that is done properly, because if you have big gaps, then.

You have some bridges and you have heat loss.

Now I was probably a little bit unfair then just saying pick three

because, oh, there's, there's, there's, there's lots of them.

There is, but like, I feel that, like you're just talking about

quantifying air tightness, because if we kind of use these as subheadings,

quantifying air tightness then allows you to understand what ventilation

strategy you're gonna be using.

So that could be, , fans, it could be opening windows, it could be ducted,

rangehood, it could be this could be that, or it could be on the other.

End a full centralized ventilation system if you're really airtight.

Yeah.

Thermal Bridges,

if we look at that as a subheading, oh fuck, it covers so many things.

Yeah, it does.

You know, timbers and steel projecting out through windows obviously happens.

How

the, how the building is framed so that you don't have big

correct voids.

Yep.

And then checking your insulation, fuck me.

Why?

I don't know that that is not something that has, that shouldn't be checked.

Mm-hmm.

It's really easy and it's actually easy.

It's also a bit very difficult because I think the issue is people

walk around with a thermal image can go, yeah, it's all good, but is

the heat differential from inside

to outside?

Yeah.

You have to understand what you're looking at.

actually understand what you're looking at yeah.

But if you think, if you think of the, the, the investment that you're making

in insulation, , it's such a small percentage of the overall build costs.

But it's probably, I would argue, one of the

most important

Yeah.

And one code, one line in the NCC to change can change both.

Two of those points is like a building must be verified to to it's perform.

Yeah.

yeah.

But that cancels out that that ticks off the installation.

Installation.

And that ticks off the air tightness.

so your three takeaways,

quantifying air

tightness, thermal bridges and checking insulation.

Correct.

Now you have your own

podcast I do.

As we talked about before.

So my final

question

to you is, when are

we

coming on?

Let's book it.

in.

Because, I feel like, um, a

lot

of the

things that we're talking about, we

talk about when you talk about,

are

super

relevant to both of our

audiences.

Yeah.

So,

you know, for, for, everyone

who's listening to this, who's listening, who loves a On for Build

podcast, um, definitely jump on and.

Building psychology.

Mm-hmm.

Podcast.

Yep.

How many apps are you up

to now?

Uh,

just about to release episode

seven on Monday.

Boom.

And

I understand

that that's all done

by you.

It, yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

Me, myself, and I Now, Jackson, I'm gonna look at the camera here.

I feel that there should be a small investment from Climb Shore

and Enduro Builders that is gonna be invested in Jess's podcast.

So Jess, you're welcome.

Cool.

Thanks for coming on.

No worries.

Thanks for having me.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you.