Well, hello and welcome to the eCommerce Podcast

with me, your host, Matt Edmundson.

Now this is a show that's basically here to help you deliver eCommerce wow.

And to help us do just that, today we are chatting with Anna Fratwell from

Neon Digital Clicks about mastering multi channel marketing with a slight

bent on how we do that to families.

Oh yes, I am looking forward to this one.

We're going to get into it.

Baby four.

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Oh, yes it is.

They enable what?

I say they.

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Prices start from just 17 bucks a month.

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And you can find out more information at eCommerceCohort.

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That's eCommerceCohort.

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Check it out.

We'll see you in there.

Let's talk about today's guest, shall we?

Uh, we are talking to Anna Fratwell.

Yes, we are.

The marketing maestro with a knack for making eCommerce brands shine.

Especially, as I said, in the whole family and even, dare I say, I should

probably whisper, women's wear realms and no one, and no, no, no, no.

She absolutely refuses to believe that anyone over 25 years have zipped

by in their marketing adventures.

Oh yes, she's a digital wizard at conjuring up growth spells

through the mystical arts of paid traffic and email marketing.

Her secret power is making brands go from unnoticed to unmissable.

Oh yes, Anna, great to have you on the show.

Thank you for joining me.

How are we doing today?

Thank you so much for having me here.

And yeah, no, all's good.

Um, I love the intro.

Thank you for that.

That was a brilliant

start.

I wish I could take credit for it, but I genuinely can't.

Uh, that is the production team.

Uh, I have no doubt working their secret magic powers.

Um, but, uh, that said, I mean, it's, you know, This is what you do, isn't it?

Um, you are called Neon Digital Clicks.

Now, you know what, Anna, let me just start by saying that 98 percent of

people that consume the content of this podcast do it in an audio format, right?

So they listen to it, say, on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Occasionally, uh, we have people either watch on YouTube, um,

I think there's about 400 odd people that watch on YouTube.

And we also do, you know, the usual sort of.

Instagram Reels and things like that.

So we have a few people that watch on video, but most people are listening.

The reason why I'm mentioning this is because your company

is called Neon Digital Clicks.

And I feel like, uh, you have got this neon background thing pretty much set up.

Uh, I feel like.

I feel like I'm back in a 1980s sort of, uh, something, I'm not quite sure.

Uh, and we've got, uh, in the background, We Glow Together,

uh, in a, in a neon form.

So, uh, I think it's, uh, I think it's

great.

You're supposed to then go straight into Greece and start singing.

That's what you're supposed to do.

You're supposed to get an earworm now.

Just as long as I know what I'm supposed to.

Here, here's the thing, uh, and full disclosure, Anna, no one...

No one, not even the angels want to hear me sing, right?

It's just, if my wife is to believe it's something that is

not blessing humanity in any way.

Okay, you

can stick with the earworm then, you'll have it all

day.

Absolutely.

Whereabouts in the UK are you?

Uh, we're kind of just between Bath and Salisbury, so southwest.

Okay, Dan South, we like

Dan South.

Nice part of the world, yeah, just outside Longleat actually, that's

usually our marker, we can quite often hear the lions sometimes, so.

Ooh,

roar.

For those who don't know, there's a big safari park, isn't there, in Longleat?

Yeah, yeah, huge safari park.

Yeah, you just don't have lions roaming around in your garden.

No, no, we're not in some kind of stately,

bizarre, Tiger King, I don't know.

Well,

that's good to know.

Yeah, yeah, that's good to know.

It'd be an interesting, I say interesting, I don't think it would

be as interesting, you know, Longleat versus the Tiger King or whatever it was.

But yes, no, fascinating.

Well, so you're, um, you're with a company, Neon Digital Clicks.

Is that your company or is that a company you're part of?

Nope, that's my company.

And how long has it been floating around?

So,

probably about five years now.

Um, we've kind of, last three years we've scaled quite significantly.

But yeah, total five years now we're a small team of specialists within

kind of each field of the marketing mix that we deliver for our clients.

So, it's...

Yeah, about five years and we've, uh, grown quite a lot in the

last three.

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?

The whole world has changed in the last sort of three years, really.

And, um, it, it sort of intrigues me.

Neon Digital Clicks, it's a marketing agency, I'm guessing,

just from the, you know, the title.

And also what we're going to be talking about, to be fair.

Um, yeah.

Is that something that you've been involved with for a while or

did you just wake up one day and thought you know what I'm just

going to start a marketing agency?

No,

so I mean I've, I've worked in marketing for sort of 25 odd

years and I started out actually in PR and worked for some of the world's

biggest ad agencies, working in PR and then worked in house for a couple of

companies and I think one of the things that Traditionally, back 25 years ago,

which was quite frustrating about PR was that, you know, it was very difficult to

kind of prove your worth within that mix.

And it was always kind of a challenge.

I mean, we're talking.

Back then we were getting rulers out and measuring the content within a

magazine to then try and put some advertising cost against it to prove,

you know, that article would have cost this as an ad and things like that.

So that was always kind of a big frustration, um, and I remember

setting up a Facebook page for a big retail company that I was working

for, and it was kind of a start.

of the moment at which I started to become really passionate about

digital marketing and what could be achieved through digital marketing.

And kind of that's where it started.

Um, and then fast forward a bit, I had my second child, um, about Six, five and

a half years ago, and it was that point at which I thought, do you know what?

I've always wanted to set up my own thing.

Now is the opportunity to take everything I've learned and gathered

through working in some really big agencies working in house, and actually,

what was it that I loved about that?

What was it as a someone in-house?

that I didn't like about working with agencies, what did I do, you know, what

did I like about working with agencies, and now it's my opportunity to create

something myself, so that's what I did.

Oh, well done.

It's, um, it's quite a common story, uh, for a lot of agency owners.

It's like, Oh, I did this, but I just wanted to do it myself.

And I thought, why not give it a go?

Had what Michael Gerber calls an entrepreneurial seizure, uh, which

I think is such a great phrase.

Um, and, um, away you go.

So here we are some sort of five years later.

I'm curious, right?

Because you said that you did a lot of PR.

There's a, there's a phrase which I have heard banded around a lot recently.

And I'd love your insights, your thoughts on this.

And that phrase is digital PR.

We should be investing in digital PR.

Now I know that's not the title of the podcast, but I'm kind of

curious, this is your background.

What is digital PR and is it something that I really need to think about?

For

me, I mean, we don't actually do any digital PR within

the agency, but for me, it kind of ties very closely in with things

like SEO, um, and it kind of.

You know, if we're working with a client that is hot on their SEO and

they're working with um, a digital PR agency as well as, as one that's

kind of doing it offline as well, we, we will see improved performance.

It's kind of that overall multi channel mix that.

Just enhances and leverages everything for a client.

And I think that, you know, if you've got people who are coming across your

brand, because they've read it in an article online, or they've picked it up

through a blog or something like that, because of the efforts of the digital

marketing team, a digital PR team, it's only going to help through, you

know, tie in and help with your efforts on Google ads and things like that.

So, yeah, I think it's, it's one of those things, isn't it?

You know, you've got to assess.

There are so many things you can do.

Where are you going to start?

Where are you going to stop?

And one of the things that I'm kind of quite passionate about

is making sure you've got all the foundations ready before you start

putting money into something.

And then when you do start to put money into something, making

sure that you do that thing well.

And not spreading yourself too thin across, you know, it's that shiny

object syndrome and thinking, Oh my goodness, do I need to be on TikTok?

Let's head over to TikTok now.

Oh, do I need to be here?

Do I, Oh, I haven't got a Pinterest page.

Maybe I'll set, you know, do your core things really, really well.

And then build from there.

So what would you, what would you say the core things are for you?

I mean, it's sage advice and I'm kind of curious, you know, um, in the

sense of if you're going to do core marketing activities, what are the core

marketing activities every eCommerce business should be thinking about?

Yeah, so, I mean, we have kind of like a process that

we'll go through and it's part of our, our conversations that we have

with leads when they come through.

And we get on that first call to do a bit of it.

Um.

Kind of digging in to find out what they're about, what their

goals are and things like that.

And one of the things, so we'll kind of look at their website, make sure

that's really well optimized, make sure that their conversion rate is strong

and it's, it's a good conversion rate and it's ready for sending traffic to.

So that's kind of number one.

If you've not got a great conversion rate or if your conversion rate

needs some work to it, don't start spending money on anything to

try and get more traffic there.

Focus there first.

So that's kind of step one.

And then we're kind of talking about broadening out those foundations.

And that does include things like SEO.

It does include things like, um, Making sure you've got a really good

email marketing platform set up.

So we work with Klaviyo, making sure that's integrated, making sure that all

those basic flows are set up and ready for you to then, when you are spending

money and sending traffic to your site, you're using every possible opportunity

to either capture someone for a later date if they don't make an instant conversion

or convert them to a sale then and there.

So they're kind of like the foundational elements we look at and then.

our point of view where we see the most success is a combination of Google ads

and Facebook ads together to kind of use them as almost like Facebook as

that top of funnel awareness driver and then Google as that kind of recapture

as well as a bit of kind of picking people up who are actively searching for

something that you've got to sell to them.

Um, so that's kind of the combination that's worked really well for us is

making sure that we've got a really solid Facebook ad strategy, Google ad

strategy, and then underpinning that with some email marketing as well.

well

Yeah.

Yeah, it's, it's interesting, isn't it?

You talk about this.

As a, as the sort of the foundations, um, I think you're right.

I think having, having an optimized website is, is, is a good place to start

because I remember one client came to us and said, listen, um, what do you,

what do you think to our business?

And I looked at what they were doing.

I looked at what their competitors were doing.

I'm like, well, your competitors are selling 10 times as much

as you from what I can gather.

online.

And he's like, well, okay, so to increase our volume by tenfold, I need to increase

my ad budget by tenfold, don't I?

And I'm like, yeah, no, no, not at all.

I'm like, first and foremost, you Before you spend any money

on increasing ads, you've got to look at your conversion rate.

So the conversion rate for you is like a fifth of what it is for your competitors.

So, um, they may be spending twice as much on advertising, but overall

they're getting 10 times as many sales.

Um, and a lot of that is down to their website.

You can be better off rather than spending an extra 30 grand on ads, investing in

your website and getting conversion rates.

It was a very difficult conversation for him to hear.

Because ads, it's easy isn't it, in a lot of ways, you kind of go, well I

need more sales, therefore I, I, I will increase my spending on ads because it's

easy, it's quick and you can outsource that to an agency and you go, well you

just Disturb all my cells, there you go.

Whereas increasing website conversion, whilst there is science behind

it, there's also an art involved and it's not as straightforward,

right?

Yeah, 100%.

Yeah, definitely.

And it's also things like, you know, some of the conversations that we have in that

initial call with someone is just making sure that they've got a really solid

understanding of those numbers as well.

And, you know, what are your margins?

Margin strong enough to sustain an ad campaign and spend that needs

to go towards that ad campaign.

And, you know, are you maximizing your average order value and things like that

to make sure that when someone lands, that your conversion rate is strong,

but you're also getting them to spend the most you can possibly get them to

spend so that that cost per click that you've got then just kind of transforms.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And then when you've done that, yes, we can start to talk about increasing ad

spend like with AdWords and Google Ads and things like that, which is great, you

know, and I think it's very sage advice.

And underpinning that you had email.

Interesting, you chose Klaviyo, which seems to be the thing that 98 percent

of eCom businesses are using now.

I don't know what the exact number is.

But everyone I talk to is now using Klaviyo.

Is there a reason you chose Klaviyo over other platforms?

Yeah, I mean, we've tried other platforms.

Klaviyo for us is just, um, incredibly intuitive.

It's built free commerce.

We're able to do so much more with it.

We see, um, great deliverability with Klaviyo as well.

So we are just, when we compare, if we, I'll quite often say if we've got

someone on MailChimp or something like that, and, and we talk to them about

Take them over to Klaviyo, you know, I, I'm always entirely confident that

they'll make that money back in terms of extra costs, it will cost to go through

Klaviyo very, very quickly because the results we're seeing are so good.

Yeah, it's really, really powerful point.

I'm smiling because I was having a conversation with someone.

Somebody yesterday, a good friend of mine, he's not involved in e-commerce,

but we just, we two old men sat in a restaurant eating, catching up with each

other, haven't seen each other for a little while, and we're just having a gab.

And we got onto the conversation of Zoom.

'cause obviously Zoom, I mean in the pan, the pandemic, you know,

if it was ever good for a company, it was good for Zoom, right?

I mean it just, Mm-Hmm came seemingly outta nowhere.

Change the world in that sort of sphere and become the market leader.

And we were talking about that and he's, he, he made a really interesting point.

He's like, well, where was Skype?

You know, Microsoft book, Skype?

I had all this money behind it, but where was Skype?

And it kind of feels a little bit.

I'm saying now, well, where was MailChimp, you know, and Klaviyo seems to have

been this new kid on the block that I know it's been around for a little

while, but it seems to now be the market leader where you kind of go, well,

that was MailChimp's domain because everybody used MailChimp years ago.

Yeah.

Um, but for whatever reason, they've not innovated and they've not kept up.

Um, and it just seems like more and more people are switching

to this other platform.

I think you're

right, and I think it's almost like they are starting to innovate,

but not at the pace at which they need to innovate either, and I think there's

so much more that's kind of happened with the likes of Klaviyo in terms of

integrations, you know, we can integrate Klaviyo seamlessly with Facebook Ads,

and we can kind of share that data.

And there's no need to bring in like Zapier or anything like that

to push data between two platforms.

So for us, it's kind of, it just makes everything far more

streamlined, far more effective when we're combining multiple platforms

together, um, for an end goal for a

customer.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I, this is interesting.

Yeah, uh, interesting.

Uh, that you, everyone seems to be going down that road.

Yeah, which is good.

I use Klaviyo myself on, uh, or Klaviyo.

Is it Klaviyo or Klaviyo?

I don't know.

I don't know.

Tomato, tomato, you know.

But we use it ourselves for our own econ businesses.

So I, uh, have, we've used MailChimp.

We've used, I mean, we've used just about all of them, I think, over the years.

And Klaviyo seems to be the one that we sort of stuck with at the

moment, um, uh, for now until I test drive another one, I'm sure at

some point, the tech team hate it.

Oh, Matt, not another email problem.

Um, so let's talk about multi channel marketing.

Uh, let's talk about it specific, cause at the start, when we were

talking about this, we said, we're going to talk about managing, um,

mastering multi channel marketing.

And I said with a specific bent on family.

And because that's what you guys are pretty hot on it, why, I mean,

this seems to be one of the things you have an agency sort of got into

that whole sphere of things, right?

Yeah, sure.

So I think it kind of naturally happened initially in that, you know, as a

parent, we were talking to parent brands.

And over time, it's where we've kind of honed our craft, as it were, and

that's where we kind of specialize.

And it's a really interesting sector to work in, because I think.

You know, what's great is, I mean, between us and the agency, I think

we, we did a headcount the other day and I think we've got like 14 kids.

So we kind of like, we can understand, you know, no matter what the problem is

that that parent might be having, we can, someone can put themselves in their shoes.

So that's kind of brilliant.

And it just being able to talk to a client who's got a family brand, whether

that's kind of a baby product, a kid's

Customer is talking.

It's just amazing.

But also from like a multi channel marketing perspective, we obviously,

you know, we know what it's like as parents, how distracted we are.

You know, if we take, um, one of the brands we work with

is the Sleep Aid for babies.

And I myself had a baby that did not sleep, refused.

Sleep, sleeping was for kind of wimps.

We're not going to do that.

And you know, the amount of Stuff that I bought in the middle of the night

whilst scrolling Facebook and it's things like that and being able to kind

of go, okay, let's test sending emails at two o'clock in the morning because

there might be parents just desperately trying to Distract themselves, keep

themselves awake and they will, you know, be hooked in quite easily to

something that really talks to that particular pain point in that moment.

So there's lots of strategies that we're able to kind of hook onto because

they're born from experience as well.

But from a multi channel marketing perspective, it's making sure that, you

know, you know what it's like as a parent, you're really highly distracted, you can

be, I don't know, finding a quiet place to just have a scroll and just go right,

it's a moment for me, I'm just going to scroll through here, and then next thing

someone's, it's either gone deathly quiet in another room, so you know that you

need to go and have a look at what's going

on.

Charcoal pans on the wall are going to appear or something, yeah, yeah,

we've got an issue, yeah, yeah.

Getting

quick.

Screams and it's because the siblings push the other one over

and then you get distracted and you've stopped what you're doing.

Yeah.

So that's why retargeting, and it's quite interesting when we dig into

kind of Google and look at kind of the touch points to a sale and how

many touch points it's taking to get customers through to a sale.

And you're looking at different products and it can be sometimes

on the products where you know.

It is a product where they've been, you can tell that there's just so much going

on in their lives or they're scrolling before they go and pick up a kid from

the school run and all of a sudden the bell goes, so they've got to get out

of their car and it's things like that.

So yeah, it's quite interesting in terms of what we can.

Uh, think about from a strategy point of view.

That's really insightful, isn't it?

Because, um, I love this idea of targeting, uh, uh, mums who

are awake in the middle of the night with sleep aids for kids.

I think that's genius.

Um, and I, uh, I, I, it's, there's, we're, we're just about to launch,

um, a new beauty brand, one, another eCom business of ours.

We're going to do a little beauty brand type thing.

And I'm like, uh, It's really interesting.

I'm just sitting here thinking, I'm actually tempted to tell the marketing

team, why don't we just test Facebook ads at two o'clock in the morning when

it's the least competitive in the UK, um, and just talk to new mums about, you

know, skincare or something like that.

Whether that, I mean, maybe they don't want to hear about skincare at

two o'clock in the morning, but it's, it's one of those things, isn't it?

Where we're all trying, I think, to target ads and to get people's attention.

And we're all doing it between nine and five.

Right, there's these boundaries.

But actually what you're talking about here is thinking outside of the

box a little bit and thinking more in line with your consumer and when

they're going to be consuming content.

Exactly that.

And it's, it's, it's essential.

I mean, certainly so far as email goes, it's, you know, you need, there's

so much, I mean, I know my inbox is round and there's so much, you know,

you've got to cut through that inbox.

You know, it's about cutting through the feed.

How can you on Facebook, you know, how can you create that cut through?

How can you be the ad that stands out against everyone else?

And again, with an inbox, it's the same thing, you know.

How can you be the email that they go, Oh, I'm just thinking about that.

That's what I need.

And like

I say, the amount I spent on sleep aids, the first year of my, my

husband will be like, what are you trying

now?

We're going to do what?

And you're like, don't talk to me.

Don't ask any questions.

I have not got any sleep.

You just, I'll sell the house, but what do you, whatever you want.

Exactly, that's what we're gonna do.

No, I've had three, I mean, my kids are at the other end of the spectrum

now, my two eldest are at uni, my young daughter's at sixth form.

And so, um, if they're having sleepless nights, I don't hear about it.

But I still remember the days well, where that was a bit of a

fraught time, especially with my daughter for the first two years.

And I, we would have literally bought anything.

I mean,

Well then that's the thing, yeah.

And the other thing is, you know, no two children are the same either, you know.

I didn't realise what a dream sleeper my first was, probably fortunately,

because I may not have had a second.

But, they definitely got that one the right way round.

But, um, yeah, and it's just, you know, and we just learn.

You know, so many of those experiences that we've had with children, so

we've got one that's eleven and one that's, um, five and a half.

And it's...

You can just lean so much and when you're looking at a team that's got a

Approximately 12 to 13 children between us, we've all come into the mix with

completely different life experiences and, you know, working together cohesively to

then go, actually this, this is the angle, this is the need, this is the problem.

Let's talk to that.

And it's interesting how you mentioned that certainly

new, I'm going to call the sector new mums, um, rightly or wrongly,

but let's just say, you know, we're talking new mums and you talk about.

Um, or maybe just mums in general, actually, they're, it's a very distracted,

uh, target audience because they're just trying to find 30 seconds here and

there, you know, I'm picking up the kids.

I'm on the look, whatever it is, you know, you just, you find your time, don't you?

And it's easy to forget what you're doing because Johnnie's Crying or

whatever, you know, and so dealing with a distracted market rather than

something that's hyper focused is, is an interesting challenge in itself.

A few weeks ago, we had Neil Hoynes on the show.

Now, at the time of recording this interview, it has not come out yet.

It will be coming out soon, I think.

I say name, I don't think it's come out yet.

I just, I really should know my own schedule.

But again, the production team, Orient Media, shout out to Orient Media.

They're amazing.

Um, the production team, uh, take care of all of that.

But Neil Hoynes is the chief strategy officer for Google.

Right.

Okay.

And his whole life is measuring data and he was talking about how,

um, they measured for one lady who was buying a pair of shoes, okay?

Now this is not a complex purchase.

It's not like I'm buying a house or something.

That is super involved.

Yeah, it's a pair of shoes.

And I'm, I appreciate people might be shouting at the, at the.

Phone now going, no, no.

Shoes are complex, man.

. You're misunderstanding it.

Yeah.

Uh, in my head, shoes aren't complex.

Right?

I, I have two brands I go to.

I buy that one or that one.

It's easy.

Mm-Hmm.

But he was saying for this one lady, um, that she had 236 points of connection

with that company before the purchase.

And he's, he was like.

This is email.

This is Facebook ads.

This is Google retargeting ads.

This was ads on Instagram.

This was coming to the website, reading a blog.

Do you know what I mean?

She would then stop, big, obviously distractions or something was going on.

And he was like, overall, there were 236.

Uh, interactions before she actually put in her credit card details and purchased.

And he's like, so who gets the sale?

How do I attribute that sale?

Yeah.

And it's like, it's obviously the answer is it's virtually impossible to go.

Mm-Hmm.

. Well, it was when she was looking at that Facebook ad that she actually

went from being really interested to Yes, I've decided on it.

Yeah.

I've made my choice.

'cause you don't, yeah.

I'm doing it.

And the reason I'm telling this story is because I.

You sort of, you distracted me and reminded me of it.

There's a lot of these connections, which is why let's talk about

multi channel marketing.

Um, for me, multi channel marketing now starts to make sense because

in this hyper distraction going on, we have to connect sometimes

230 times before we get this thing.

And if you, you know, we're, we're not, we don't focus

our attention, do we, as humans?

We don't spend, we're very much, you know, quickly, even if you're not a distracted

mum, you're kind of looking at something, then you're looking at something else.

People are watching Netflix and watching their phone at the same time.

You know, there's so many.

Things going on in our brains and in our environment that it then becomes even

more important to be kind of in this Multi channel presence, but with the caveat

of I think it's really important to be doing them well, so don't go Oh, okay.

I need to be everywhere.

So I'm just gonna throw myself everywhere like throwing yourself

everywhere and doing that badly It's not going to, not going to work either.

It's, you know, it's about making sure that what you do do, you do it really,

really well and then build out from there.

But it's interesting your point about the lady in the shoes, because we've

worked with kid's shoe brands in the past and that's quite an interesting one

as well, because if you think about it, we're all kind of as parents conditioned

to go through the misery of going to somewhere like Clark's and sitting

there for ages while you wait for your child's foot to be measured because.

We all know that it's really important to have children's feet measured because

they're growing and things like that.

And it was quite, it's quite an interesting one because I think shoes

in general are quite difficult to sell online because you want to know how

they fit and feel, um, different shoes.

Come in, you know, they size differently per store and things like that.

Some stores selling European sizes, some stores go by the

UK sizes and things like that.

And then that was a brand also that required a lot of touch points

because, you know, it's not just from an adult's perspective, you

know, what size foot you are.

And so therefore you kind of can make an educated guess on what size it is.

You've got the added dimension of then.

Being responsible for making sure your child is wearing the right size

shoe when we know actually that that's really important in those early years

is to have the right size shoe because I mean, we all tell ourselves all

sorts of things as parents, you know, you could be damaging their feet if

you don't get it right and all of those things going on in your brain.

So that again was another brand that required so many touch points in

order to get the sale because you were, you were having to address so

many different barriers to purchase.

In order to, but one of the big things we knew was no one likes

sitting in clots for hours on end in a queue with a million other kids

around them.

Oh, with their smotty noses.

Can you get

me out of here now?

It's interesting, isn't it?

I'm thinking, I mean, we're talking a lot about shoes.

The shoe company that I use has an interesting shoe sizing policy and

I'm always a little bit sketchy of it.

But what they have you do now is you.

You put a piece of A4 paper on the floor and you put your foot on it and you take

a photo and they're using the tech now to figure out the right shoe size for you.

And, which I think is, is, is interesting, isn't it?

As tech unfolds, we can, we can add this.

And again, this comes back to website conversion.

How do you help somebody buy?

It's like, we're going to help you get the right size straight away.

You know, no dramas, you know.

All you need is a picture of your foot, which is quite clever when you think about

it, you know, what you can do with that.

So let's talk then about multi channel marketing.

It's very difficult.

This phrase multi channel marketing, I want to say multi level marketing,

but it's not, it's multi channel.

Uh, so is it better to market in four channels really well than in ten

channels at a sort of mediocre level?

I'd argue yes.

I mean you don't want to, because the other thing is, you know, unless you've

got infinite amounts of money to be spending on ad spend across as many

channels as you like, you know, it's just no point watering down your ad spend.

And then not really achieving anything particularly well across anything.

Um, so you're better off kind of, and that, and that's why we've got to this

place where we are predominantly looking at that foundational pieces, your email

marketing, make sure that's set up.

that you've got those automations in place to capture anyone

at any part of their journey.

Um, and then layering that on with the real kind of awareness driver

of Facebook ads, and then the kind of retargeting the extra things that

Google can do alongside Facebook ads.

And together, they work really well.

I would argue that kind of We're seeing more and more success with things like

TikTok as well and layering that in.

But again, I think that's really specific to the brand.

And I think you can either just smash it on TikTok or you can be

severely disappointed by what happens.

And I think that's kind of making sure that your brand is fit for purpose

when it comes to TikTok really.

Um, so yeah, so that's why our predominant focus has been on those

three core areas, because it's where we've been able to take a branch and go,

okay, let's get out there, let's test.

Let's now scale and let's use these three platforms to be able to scale

you up to where you want to be.

And then once we've got a hold of that and we've got that working really well

for you, now let's look at something else, now let's look at something else.

You know, there are so many things, you know, you look at SEO, which is

again, arguably really important.

You look at things like Pinterest ads.

They're all very long term, slow burners.

They are important, but if you're looking for that kind of faster conversion and

scale, they're the places that you kind of need to focus your attention for our

experience.

Yeah, so if I'm a brand, and I feel like we've reached a limit on those core

ones, so let's take Google and Facebook.

So let's assume they're our core foundational ones, um, whether it's

Facebook something in the metaverse, we should probably call it meta rather than

Facebook, actually, I've got my Matt Edmundson, Diocese, Prayer, Conversation

Street, Holcombe, Origin, Origins, Liverpool, Frontline, Frontline Church,

Jesus Christ, eCommerce Podcast, EP.

Do you A.

Believe me and go right you should try TikTok or do you B.

Go can I have a look first because I'm not entirely sure.

So before you go off and say do TikTok let's look at Google and Facebook and you

tend to find actually What most owners perceive about their Google Ads and

Facebook is not actually quite correct.

Yeah, that one.

B.

That's what we, yeah, that's what we tend to find is, you know, you, and

then, unfortunately, you know, it kind of reminds me of the conversations

that I have all too often with brands where they kind of say, oh,

interface, meta doesn't work for me.

And you go, okay, let me just have a look, see why.

You think Meta doesn't work for you, and you know, it may be that they've had a bad

experience with someone who has set them up in an entirely the wrong way, they're

not optimising the right things, they're not feeding enough creative into their

campaigns, and you know, very much so now, more than ever, Meta is about creative

iterations and making sure that you have not just volume of creative, but that

there's diversity of creative as well.

So quite often you'll look in an account where someone has said,

wow, I didn't see that coming.

It's just not working for us, and there's always opportunity, and

there's always something that can be done to improve that performance.

Um, I don't think we've, we've, I mean, we audit every business before we

begin working with them, and I don't, I don't think we've ever audited a

business where we've gone, actually, do you know what, you're right.

You've, you've nailed it.

You've nailed Metta.

You don't need us.

You've done it.

You've completed Metta.

Well done.

On to the next

one.

On to the next one.

What would the next one be?

So what are some of the other channels?

Um, you know, we're doing, maybe we've not got it totally optimized and

buttoned down, but we're doing okay with Google, Facebook, and I'm feeling

confident now about branching out.

What are some of the other platforms that should be on my hit list?

I mean, you've mentioned TikTok, you know, a lot of people talking about

TikTok at the moment, but what should I realistically be thinking about?

I do think it's really dependent on the

brand and what you're selling.

I think that, you know, there's a lot to be said for TikTok and Pinterest.

I think that you'd see a faster conversion from the likes of TikTok.

It's a much faster kind of, you know, you can think about, but again, TikTok is

only going to work for you if you can, if you can produce the volume of creative.

And if you're not able to keep up with that volume of creative, then Don't

start down that Tik Tok route at all.

Um, Pinterest, if you're talking about baby brands, kids brands,

you've got that opportunity where people are building boards on their

nurseries and things like that.

And that's a great opportunity to tap into that psyche of that

customer and where they are in their journey as they head towards having

their first child or something.

So, you know, that's, they're, they're great options.

And it really, I, Believe is specific to your product, your brand and

what you're trying to achieve.

And going back to what we spoke about with digital PR, I think, you know, that's a

really valuable place to be, and I think that's kind of only by doing that you are

then putting yourself in a position where you're going to enhance performance on

the channels that you're already using.

Putting paid traffic into.

So it's kind of layering on an additional element that's gonna

enhance what you're already doing.

Mm-Hmm.

Very good.

You talk about the volume of creative, um, Mm-Hmm.

And, uh, meta needs volume, and.

Tick tock needs volume.

Just explain for those that might not know what that means and what that

actually what's involved with that.

Yeah, so, um, it's ensuring that obviously it's dependent on ad spend.

If you've got a really, really small ad spend, then you're restricted by how

much creative that you can Actually have running, but on most kind of accounts,

you want to have a breadth of creative.

So that's when we talk about, um, volume of creative, we're talking about

things like making sure that you've got static images, video, you've got

carousels, you've got collection ads, you've got all sorts of different

permutations of creative running in your account, but then equally.

Of those creations, you've got variations of them, so you've got different kind of

variations of that same creative, um, but it has to be different enough for AI to

actually go, or the AI in meta to actually go, that is different, it's not the same.

I can see that there's a difference between those two, um, making sure

that you're mixing kind of some very, um, lifestyle creative and

video with some more user generated creative and, and things like that.

So you really are putting yourself in a position where the algorithm can Be

creative and find the right user for that piece of creative and then find the

winning pieces of creative and then you're able to learn from the data, learn from

what's working, what isn't working and then that can inform future choices and

future decisions and what you do next.

That's going to be one of my questions actually because

you're, it's in, you know, we're talking about the volume of creative going

back 25 years and it's when you, you know, were working for a large agency.

The agency would run one ad.

That's what they would run.

They would put that ad in probably multiple magazines.

Yeah, it feels like this is quite different in the sense of

I'm, I'm running a hundred ads.

Yeah.

Um, rather than one, uh, and I'm now thinking rather than trying to create

one fantastic ad, I'm, I'm sort of spreading my resources to create a

hundred ads, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

Why, why should I do that in, you know, why, why can't I just create

one ad and run with that one ad?

Why do I need a hundred different ads, for example?

It's a bit like saying that all your customers are the same people,

they're not the same people, they're kind of different people with different,

you know, something that might appeal to you, might be for the same product,

might not appeal to me, and how are you going to convert two entirely different

people to purchase the same product?

It's by putting something different that's going to resonate

with them in front of them.

Um, I think the, You know, and it's all about these touch points as well,

and telling a story too, so you know, it may be that something catches your

eye initially, and then, do you know who, sorry, I just had an idea of

something that kind of plays into what I'm saying, um, as an example, a a

company called Merry People that sell wellies, I'm fascinated by their ads.

Okay, Merry People.

Yeah, I stalked them.

I'm going to go and check them out.

Incessantly.

So they have nailed creative variation and it's brilliant.

So they will, you'll get one ad that will show you kind of how to wear

the boots, how to style the boots.

You'll get a next ad that will just hammer you with a visual

and then there'll be lots of testimonials alongside that visual.

So it's a very simple cutout image and it's got loads of testimonials.

Then there'll be user generated content.

Then there'll be, um, Kind of a really beautiful stylized shot.

Then there'll be something from the founder.

And all the time you're building this picture of this brand, you're building

this picture of this product and you're kind of getting to a point where you're

going, I want to be part of this, you know, because it's tackled your, um,

The consumer from so many different angles that ultimately the you,

kind of feel infused into the brand.

brand It's, it's really, and it's what, you know, they're

not the only people doing it.

Lots of people are doing it.

I think they do it particularly well, um, and it's just so

important as part of a strategy to not just go, Oh, that's working.

So that's what we're going to stick with.

Because in order to scale and grow, you need that

variant.

Yeah, no, I love that.

I love, I think it's, it's a bit, it's a, I guess we have the technology now

where if I go back 25 years and I'm picking up Vogue and there's an advert

that Vogue knows who's picked up the magazine and so the advert changes

accordingly and so what I, you know, it sort of shows an advert which is going

to resonate more with whoever's picked it up rather than just one generic ad

and I get that and I love how it works.

You've talked about something I've not heard talked about much actually

when it comes to Facebook ads.

Specifically, Facebook ads, because I think Google, you know, is more

about the shopping side of things.

But with Meta, the opportunity you have to communicate your brand's story in a

way that resonates with the customer, rather than just going, buy, buy,

buy, here's a product, buy, buy, buy.

Um, but showing different sides of the company, showing different values,

different brands, different, you know, and educating the customer.

So the customer almost feels like it knows you.

And it's not even, you know, the customer's not gone to your website.

Um, I think it's quite a clever idea.

Um, and it's, I'm going to follow Merry People, the Wellies.

Um, I'll follow them.

I don't even need to mention their name twice.

Facebook will have heard it.

I dare say the ads will appear.

Oh, come on.

And I think what tips I'm aware of time, Anna, but, um, we've opened up

a can of worms here in a lot of ways.

I'm kind of curious, what tips would you give people who are.

Listen to the podcast, um, and they're, they're fairly new tweakers.

So people like say me, take away my background, I'm starting

a new skincare brand, right?

What sort of things should I be thinking about?

Let's talk about that person.

And then I want to get your tips for the person that's like me, that

has a big eCommerce brand over here.

That is.

Functioning in all kinds of different ways.

So, uh, let's start with the newbie.

So, basics, um, making sure that you've kind of optimised

your website, making sure that you've got your foundations in place when it

comes to email marketing and making sure that you're capturing emails and SMS.

Um, knowing your numbers, because it's surprising how many people

Don't know their total margins.

They might know the margin on against cost per, you know, the cost of the goods to

buy and then what they're selling it for.

But factoring in all those other elements in your business

that contribute to your margin.

So important.

Um, and then.

Making sure that you've got a really good, clear understanding of who your

customer is and who is buying from you so that you can then build out

strategies that lean into finding more people that like your existing

customer to start and scale your brand.

Fantastic.

That's where I'd start.

Great.

And the established e commercer, as I like to call

them.

Yeah, so if they're already running ads, they're generating a consistent

turnover from our perspective.

It's making sure that we're Those platforms are dovetailing into each

other and work and supporting each other and doing what they should do.

Some of the things we look at in turn when we come to scale is things like, you know,

we'll have a brand that's saying to us, one of our case studies is on a brand that

we've been working with where they had a great turnover, but they were just seeing

the same turnover month in month out and we kind of looked into that to see what

was going on and actually identified that They had a great problem because people

were repeat purchasing, but they weren't bringing in anyone new to the business.

So our main strategy was about driving new customer acquisition whilst

maintaining that customer loyalty.

So that that was the way to scale that brand, which we just kind of exploded

it for them because we were able to bring in lots and lots of new people.

But we knew because of the way they ran their business and how successful

they were at repeat purchase.

Once we brought them in through the door, they were going to stick around.

So that's how we scaled it.

So it's, I think it's about finding out what the bottlenecks

are within your business.

What are the problems and what are the things that are holding you back

from taking it to the next level?

So it could, it's really difficult to come up with a one size fits all approach

to the next steps because it's going to be very different in each situation.

No, very good.

Very good.

Love that.

Take notes, ladies and gentlemen.

Uh, sage advice.

Um, Anna, listen, I, I am really aware of time.

Uh...

So if people want to connect with you, if they want to find out more about

Neon Digital Clicks, if they just have a few questions they want to run past

you, what's the best way to get hold of you and see what you guys are up to?

Yeah, so

we're really active actually on Instagram, so you can head

over to us on Instagram, we're at Neon Digital Clicks there, or head to our

website, which is neondigitalclicks.

co.

uk.

We offer a free audit, so you can always...

Let's jump in and we'll take a look at your business, see what's going on.

Um, so yeah, the best places are Instagram and our website.

Does Instagram work well for you?

Brilliantly.

Yeah, it works really well.

We, we, we, I kind of keep looking at other platforms, but it's where

we kind of, it's kind of our, yeah, bread and butter, I'd say.

It's where we get a lot of engagement, a lot of conversations happen, um,

it's been a great platform for us.

Yeah, fantastic.

See, most people normally, they come on the show, um, this podcast or the

other podcast that we have, um, I'm kind of addicted to podcasting, if

I'm honest with you, but, um, they come on the show and they'll normally

share like their LinkedIn, you know, LinkedIn find me on LinkedIn.

Um, less and less people are saying, Find me on Instagram, unless they've

got like a personal brand, but you're an agency on LinkedIn doing well,

which I find quite fascinating.

Yeah.

So yeah, well, that's awesome.

It's an unusual thing, but it's awesome.

And so we're on

LinkedIn too.

But we are on LinkedIn too, but I would say Instagram's The good stuff happens.

That's where the magic happens is on Instagram.

And this show is not sponsored by anything to do with Instagram,

just to be totally clear.

Now, uh, that's, that's brilliant.

Uh, Anna, listen, we will of course link to all of those things in the show notes

as well, which people can get along for free at the website, ecommerce podcast.

net.

Or of course, if you subscribe to the newsletter, they will

be winging their way to you.

Just click the links in the email and you will find them.

Anna, listen, thank you for coming on to the show.

Uh, super enjoyable conversation, loving your background, loving the

insights into family and um, uh, multi channel marketing, not multi level

marketing, uh, multi channel marketing.

And um, I, I, I loved your ideas about, um, stories, you know, using Facebook

met ads to sort of tell a story, which I, and, and build your brand that way.

I think it's very clever.

Um, so genuinely appreciate you coming on the show.

Huge, huge thanks.

Thank you.

Thanks very much.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Also a big shout out to today's show sponsor, the eCommerce Cohort.

Remember to check out their free training, uh, or free

training, just check out them out.

It's all at ecommercecohort.

com.

More information in there.

Come join me in there.

It's great fun.

Uh, also be sure to follow the eCommerce Podcast wherever you get your podcasts

from, because of course we have more great conversations lined up.

And I don't want you to miss any of them.

And in case no one has told you yet today, let me be the first to tell you.

You are awesome.

Yes, you are.

Created awesome.

It's just a burden you have to bear.

Anna has to bear it.

I've got to bear it.

You've got to bear it as well.

Now the eCommerce Podcast is produced by Orien Media.

You can find our entire archive of episodes on your favorite podcast app.

The team that makes this show possible is the wonderful Sadaf

Bainon and Tanya Hutzalak.

Our theme song was written by Josh Edmundson.

And as I mentioned, if you would like to read the transcript or show notes,

head to the website eCommercePodcast.

net.

That's it from me.

That's it from Anna.

Thank you so much.

For joining us.

Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world.

I'll see you next time.

Bye for now.