00:00:08 Sana: Welcome back to the Mindful Living podcast. Listeners, I am Sana, as always here. And today we are going to slow down, have a conversation about something which I believe a lot of us we needed, we needed, but very few of us know how to have. We are going to talk about trauma, about the body that remembers what the mind tries to forget and about the slow, unglamorous work of coming back to yourself through mindfulness, breath and nervous system regulation. Now, you know, there's this sentence that once you really hear it, it's going to stay with you for for a long time. I didn't want to die. I wanted the pain to stop. Now, most people who have quietly thought it have never said it out loud. And most people who have heard it from someone else probably misunderstood. Because those two things, they're not the same. And the space between them is where so much of our pain actually lives. And that's where I introduce my guests to all of you listeners. Anu Verma, she works alongside people who are moving from survival into peace, and she does it with the kind of lived honesty that you can feel from the first sentence, which I just mentioned. So let's, let's, uh, let's get started listeners, and let's welcome our guest, Anu Verma. Anu. Welcome to the show. I'm really, really, it's it's a gift to have you here with us.

00:02:01 Anu Verma: Oh, thank you so much. What a beautiful introduction. Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure to be here.

00:02:09 Sana: I know I immediately I would love to start with that sentence only, that you have shared this line, the one where someone says, I didn't want to die. I wanted the pain to stop. And I, I think there's a, there's a quiet version of this that doesn't get talked about enough because we hear suicidal thoughts and our minds jump straight to a clinical image. And what? I mean, we we miss what someone is actually telling us. So, um, in your experience, what is the thing we are getting wrong about the sentence?

00:02:49 Anu Verma: Yeah. Well, I just feel, you know, that hopelessness is a big issue when it comes to, um, trying to survive any traumatic incident that we might have been through. And when we're hopeless, then it kind of creates this tunnel vision where people genuinely can't imagine a future beyond the pain that they're in. And especially in my case, you know, it wasn't that I actually truly wanted my life to end. It's just the fact that I never saw a way out. I never realized that there was actually relief from the emotional suffering that I was going through. So suicide is often linked to emotional exhaustion. Um, a lot of shame that that we carry and as well as a self blame, you know, the isolation that we feel because when we are under a traumatic situation, then we a lot of us, we feel alone, you know, we feel like there's nobody out there who has been through the same and that, you know, whatever you're going through, um, it just feels like nobody will understand you. And so that can create isolation, which actually makes our situation worse because when we isolate ourselves, then, you know, we just feel alone. And so I always say that, you know, the opposite of depression and anxiety is actually community and a proximity and closeness and connection with people. And so in order for us to feel happy, you know, we need to feel connection. And that's what a lot of suicide suffer. Um, ideation sufferers will not feel, you know, they won't feel part of something that they'll feel just totally alone, which is why a lot of mental health issues arose during Covid as well. You know, because we were isolated, weren't we? We were on our own at home and we weren't allowed to see people. And, um, and there was a huge link in, um, you know, depression and other mental health, um, situations post Covid, as we all know. And so that can create, you know, our nervous system to be quite overwhelmed. And, um, we then suffer the fight, flight and freeze response, which is again, a trauma response. We feel emotionally disconnected from ourselves, which can become very dangerous over time. And so I now talk openly about my suicidal thoughts without shame, because I know that by me opening up to people, it can actually help to save lives and just help people to understand that, that they're not alone and that many of us struggle in silence because we're just ashamed to speak out about it. So I guess my, you know, closing note on that is the fact that asking for help isn't a weakness. It's actually survival and it's important and it's strength. So I just want everyone to understand that sharing your story, being vulnerable, it's actually a strength and to really own that. And.

00:06:01 Sana: You know, first of all, really, really admire that because, it does take a lot of strength, uh, to share, the exact thing, what you mentioned openly, and, yeah, I think a lot of listeners, they are going to feel, especially, something what you said is, um, that, we are not alone. Uh, I am not alone. And it's not that I'm broken or something, or there's something needed to be quote unquote fixed because, most of us have either, been on one side of it or the other. And we, we, we, we don't have a language for what to do when someone says something we don't know how to receive. And secondly, the shame that you mentioned. Yes. because I, I, I don't know the exact reason, but there could be several reasons. There could be different reasons for different people out there. But, especially around this idea that, if you're asking for help, um, especially in this scenario, it's more like a weakness, um, or helplessness or, something, quote unquote wrong that you're asking for help. So it's like, instead of addressing the exact, uh, um, challenge or concern in there, uh, it's just on the very surface level that, you know, uh, people are trying to address. Um, so I think it, it definitely, you know, opens up a bigger question, uh, because the pain doesn't just live only in our words, but it definitely lives somewhere deeper.

00:07:45 Anu Verma: It does. Absolutely. And I just feel as in humans, and especially now with, you know, social media, we're just so good at seeing our issues. You know, we're just pretending that we're fine, pretending our relationships are great, you know, whereas we're not. And, um, and I guess, you know, that's the world that we live in. It's, uh, kind of portrayal. It's making people believe that, you know, we're fine when we're not. And so that's obviously toxic positivity. And, um, again, it's something which I'm so passionate about addressing because I just feel that, you know, we all need to really become self aware. We need to be aware of what's really happening internally so that we can become more genuine and more authentic in our being, rather than masking our issues. You know, let's open up about them. Let's try and understand them and accept them and try and be open about our issues. You know, if you're feeling stressed or anxious or depressed, then, you know, own that, you know, it's okay to, to feel that way. We're only human. We're not robots yet. We're not. I know AI has taken over, but, you know, we have emotions, we have feelings. And, you know, it's so beautiful that that we get to experience that and that we're not robots. So I just feel, you know, it's so important for people to understand that, you know, owning our emotions and our feelings is such a beautiful way to live and to own that again. Yeah.

00:09:20 Sana: Yeah. I really loved that you used owning our emotions and feelings, you know, because, um. Uh, I think sometimes we, uh, unconsciously or, uh, maybe unintentionally, we would try to look outside for, uh, solutions or, you know, ways, uh, trying, trying to just understand what exactly triggered that emotion or if something triggered that emotion, then that only or, uh, that situation or that person or that event or that thing has caused that emotion, those feelings. But, um, yeah, what lives inside? I think that is something which, which I, I believe still, uh, you know, many of us, in fact, I also wasn't aware, you know, before I got into, uh, doing these conversations, I always thought that anything connected to, uh, you know, mental health. Anything connected to, uh, mindfulness is all about your mind, all about your brain or your mind. Um, but, you know, the, the fact that the body holds what the mind can not like, people will say that was years ago. I have moved on. I would, I would have also said that a few years back that yes, that was years ago. I've moved on. But, um, you know, in, in some ways your body gives, gives signals and this is something I have felt, um, to a very, uh, minimum extent, but I would love to know from you, um, what is unresolved trauma doing in the body that the mind doesn't know about?

00:11:10 Anu Verma: Wow. And this is such a huge topic in itself because again, yeah, so many of us don't realize the impact that unresolved wounds have on our physical being. And there's many studies that are happening. Um, and there's many doctors out there who are truly passionate about this work, which I'm so happy that it's been studied because majority of the, of the illnesses that we suffer from, you know, the inflammation which is caused by stress, stress that is caused by the unresolved wounds that we carry. And a lot of it is linked to trauma. Um, it's linked to issues that we haven't dealt with from early childhood, even, you know, never mind what happens in adulthood. But then what happens is our body keeps hold of that and it basically it basically, um, tries to, protect that. And so what happens then is that it creates blocks in our energy flow. And then that's those blockages. Like obviously, um, there's many people out there who believe in the chakras. And again, I'm a huge believer in my chakras because when I was holding on to so much pain, all my chakras were blocked, my energy was blocked, my blood wasn't flowing it efficiently because I had cold extremities like my hands, my feet and my nose would remain cold even in the summer because my my blood wasn't flowing effectively because of my, um, all my, you know, energy levels being blocked. And so, um, that's because I was holding on to so much pain and it took a lot of healing. Like for me, it took Reiki healing. Um, I did emotional freedom therapy, um, tapping work to actually release a lot of the energy, a lot of the trapped energy. It was painful. You know, it wasn't easy for me because so much I was uncovering over it. It took quite a lot of years for me because I'd had childhood trauma from the age of three. And it was just repetitive, a traumatic incidences that kept occurring throughout my life because not only was it childhood trauma, there was toxic relationships and all the trauma from a few different partners that were. So they were damaging my whole body. And other symptoms that I experienced was that I just couldn't lose weight. You know, I was quite like chubby. And again, even that a lot of that chubbiness it's from trauma, you know, we actually retain weight because of the trauma that we're holding. And so many, you know, people who may be obese out there. Um, I mean, if you ask them about their life events, like, you know, just have a truly deep conversation about what's happened since they were younger to now, what, what negative life events could have impacted them now then majority, a lot of it will be trauma it. And, you know, it's sad to say that trauma impacts us on so many levels, even cancer. And, you know, all these chronic, um, heart conditions that we might suffer from and just like even dementia, you know, a lot of the, psychiatric, uh, brain illnesses that we might, um, endure as well. A lot of that goes back to trauma, unfortunately. So the body does keep the score. And one of the first things that I do with any of my clients when I first see them is a timeline of events, because you have to understand what's happened to you from when you were born to now to really understand why you may be the way that you are. And majority of us, we're not happy with certain aspects of our life, you know, whether it's habits that we might have formed or the relationships that we are in, or even, our physical body and, you know, you might have illnesses. And so how about, you know, just trying to understand, um, why that is, you know, let's try and understand what may have caused this. It's again, you know, it's not easy work. This is really deep inner work. And it starts from you understanding your life. And it starts from you accepting what's happened in your life and to then, you know, heal from it. So once you heal from it, then, you know, once you start that, that healing journey, then I just feel life could become so much better for each and every one of us, which is why I'm so passionate about the work that I do.

00:15:48 Sana: I absolutely, I absolutely make a sense of it. And, and, I believe when it comes to, um, you know, especially as you mentioned about, um, obesity of, becoming overweight, I think sometimes, um, it's like the extremes in here, either there is some, um, because, this is from my own lived experience. I know that, um, let's say, you are obese in your childhood and you get constantly either bullied or, or fat shamed or, very casually, um, like in society's, you know, people would, always kind of, you know, picture you as this bulky, chubby. Uh, yeah, you are cute. You are chubby. You are so healthy. You know, I mean, in, in, uh, like culturally in my country, like, it's, it's very casual. It's, it's absolutely. And oh my goodness. And in schools, it's, it's, it's a nightmare. It's a nightmare. And I'm not, I'm not saying that, I advocate for, uh, the performative body positivity here, but, my own experiences, they have at least made me very conscious and empathetic towards, uh, labeling, bullying or, uh, even if, sometimes it can be joked around. I wouldn't prefer, making that par, of, of any, any person's, um, uh, you know, uh, either it's, it's, uh, the, the physicality or the physical traits as, as joke because it, it could be, you know, any, any reason. And if, if trauma, if any unresolved trauma is the fact that, they would have probably, uh, gained weight because, the body kind of, you know, bore the brunt of that or maybe, they are, uh, masking those years of bullying or getting labeled as chubby or healthy or, cute but fat kid, uh, with extreme extreme fitness regime. I think it it goes to extreme. Either you are not at all taking care of your body, or you are going to such an extreme end, that rigidity that you are now either starving your body or you're just, you're just working at the surface level because you just want to prove to others that, you are not that fat, chubby kid anymore.

00:18:28 Anu Verma: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You're right actually. Yeah. With those extremities, I was the same. Um, I was, I was quite chubby, um, when I, when I was small and um, that's because I was being overfed. But then what happened was, uh, you know, after my childhood, um, traumatic, um, situation that I experienced, uh, which happened over some years, then I, what, later on in my life, even during my teen years, I was then using food as comfort because, you know, it was it made me feel good, you know, just eating like overeating and all. I also, um, I mean, you know, there's many reasons why we do overeat. And I also wanted to do that because I wanted to feel fat. So that, so that, like, so that I wouldn't get any more attention from any men or boys. And so it was a way for me to then try and remain ugly, you know, which is strange because again, you know, there's many motivators for this. And so yeah. And so, you know, and then what happened was when I look after my teen years, when I became a young adult, I then went to the other extreme where I wasn't eating at all. And I was overexercising I was on these, um, weight loss pills and I became so skinny. So I went on the other other extreme. And so, um, I kind of life remained a bit of a yo yo. I'd either become really skinny or I'd become really fat. So there was no balance until I actually healed. Yeah. And that was, that was actually during my mid thirties when I started to actually really appreciate my body for the first time.

00:20:10 Speaker 2: Mhm.

00:20:12 Sana: And I, I personally connect with that so much. What, what you just shared is, because, there was a period in my life also where, uh, it's like, I am skipping meals, I am overexercising probably three times in a day. And, this, I mean, this went on for like more than two years. And, there was another part of me which, who was completely aware that, this is ruining your, ability to, uh, enjoy your life because I dreaded. I feared going out with friends or I dreaded, uh, eating, very impromptu meals or unplanned meals always, excessively aggressively counting calories, um, to to an extent that, there was a day when I completely like, I gave up and I, it's, it was like I was gorging on sweets because I let my body, be devoid of, at least, uh, nutritious homemade food even. because this, this, there was this a, you know, madness within me that I had to achieve this. It went to a, went to a very, very huge extreme in there. And, uh, that's why I, I absolutely connected with what you said. Yeah.

00:21:32 Anu Verma: Wow. That's amazing. Yeah, that, that's a really fantastic, um, insight as well, about your own life. And I just think that again, many of us are struggling like this, but we think it's normal and it's only really understanding, your life patterns and listening to podcasts like this, you know, which I think it really helps people to then start to question how normal their life actually is. Absolutely. Absolutely.

00:22:00 Sana: And for, in, in, when, when you started to move from survival into actual peace, um, I'm very sure that it was not, immediate or the dramatic that, day before that day zero this happened. And after I started this, immediately the effect showed up, the changes happen and all is now good. It has been this unglamorous, steady thing. So what was the practice or the shift that began to do the real work for you.

00:22:34 Anu Verma: So for me, it was energy healing really worked. I mean, I was actually, um, prescribed, um, antidepressant pills from my doctor when I went there. And they also put me on this, um, uh, pathway, uh, through therapy as well with, which was, um, cognitive behavioral therapy, which is CBT. And so, um, you know, they basically were just following the protocol in the UK, which is CBT therapy and antidepressants as a cure. And so I did do all of that, but I was still struggling. You know, I was still really depressed and crying every day, even though the antidepressants were numbing me. It still never stopped the internal pain. And so I stopped those antidepressants after a few months because they just weren't going to the root problem. And so the only thing that helped me was actually spiritual work. It was actually going to an energy healer to really help me with, with to unblock my energy for starters, and to actually release the pain in my body. I mean, that's not going to happen through just therapy, you know, through, um, like talking therapy. It's great to understand how to, um, how to live your life, you know, how to set goals and how to, um, change, you know, your habits, you know. CBT is great for that, but it's going to help with trauma and unhealed wounds. No, you need, you need much deeper work. And so Reiki healing was fantastic for that. I even went on to then become, um, like a Reiki master. So I actually started training in it because again, for me, by actually training in this work, it was, you know, helping with my own inner work. And I remember just waking up in the middle of the night just crying so much because I just had so many hidden memories within me that were coming out. I suppressed so many memories that, um, that it was, it was actually traumatizing to actually experience them again as they were coming out. And they'd come out at like two o'clock in the morning. Some mornings. And then I remember even like, um, because I'd actually moved back home at this time because I just needed the comfort of my parents because I'd actually escaped a very abusive relationship. And I remember just telling my mom some of the horrific things that had happened to me. And she, you know, she was so upset. She said, why didn't you tell me before? I said, because I suppressed it, you know, because that's all I knew from such a young age to brush things under the carpet and to not talk about things. Because no matter what I'd gone through, I was told that that was the way that we deal with it, that that's the way that we cope. You know, we just don't talk about it. And so I, I basically, um, you know, learned that and I was, um, basically doing that throughout my whole life and which isn't, it's, it's, that's not a coping strategy. You know, that's the worst thing that we can do, which I real, I realize now. And so, um, yeah, energy healing was really big for me. And also, you know, emotional freedom therapy is where you, um, are tapping at the acupuncture points of your body. And, and you're also repeating affirmations as well because, you know, we become our words. So no matter what we're thinking, no matter what we say, eventually our nervous system learns to, um, accept that and learns to, um, you know, that that basically becomes you through our nervous system regulation. And so I realized the importance of, um, how we speak to ourselves. And so affirmations become a huge part of my healing journey as well. I do things like actually write post-it notes all around my house and post-it notes saying I am worthy, I am enough, I am loved, I can achieve anything I want to, I deserve the best things in life. So it's all these amazing, positive words that I was just, um, affirming that I was looking at on a daily basis. And that again, really transformed the way that I saw myself from hating myself. I actually began to love myself. And that was it. You know, I felt like that was what I needed, that self-love. Because how can you expect others to love you and treat you, um, as a valued being? If, if you, if you don't think highly of yourself? So self-love is such a huge aspect of healing. I feel like that's what we need to learn to do, first of all, is to, um, understand, accept ourselves, appreciate ourselves and and love ourselves. So yeah, that was I feel. Was that was like it in a nutshell. Yeah.

00:27:39 Sana: But but, it's, it's, uh, sometimes I, I, I, I know for the fact, that, uh, it can be challenging to compress everything, within such a short period of time. But, um, one thing for sure that, you know, this phrase self love and, I, I have, uh, we, I, I have talked about this on, on several of the conversations, especially how self love sometimes is portrayed in a very aesthetic and very picture perfect. sometimes, cinematic way that how it looks, um, popularly in the mainstream, but it's, it's this, you know, unglamorous. You know, something I mentioned in the intro? Um, sometimes it's boring. It's, it's the consistent way of, actually actually, having that dialogue with ourselves and, just, just kind of, coming closer to ourselves, coming home to ourselves, which is not exactly what is portrayed that, you only get to love yourself when you have a spa day or when you, do your nails and, it's, it could be potentially a part of it. and sometimes also on the other end, it's wrongly, understood as, you know, being self centered or just, caring about yourselves. And that's not what, uh, true self care advocates for, uh, I believe we can, um, harmonize both the things we can love ourselves. And at the same time, we can also project that love for our loved ones. Yeah. and, um, that's what I feel it needs to be, more and more people who are actually doing that, that if they, you know, share that out, uh, with people. So I think this phrase will earn its much deserved, you know, uh, authentic meaning.

00:29:47 Anu Verma: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's important for people to understand why it's important. And especially for, um, you know, people who have unhealed wounds because I don't know anybody who has unhealed wounds and trauma, who actually can look in the mirror and really appreciate themselves, because what they'll be looking at is their faults. they'll be looking at their weaknesses. And self-love is when you can look in the mirror and the first thing you notice is the beauty within yourself. And you know, the first thing you notice is, um, just, you know how amazing you are. And so this is why self-love is so important because, you know, that's what we want to do. We, we need to appreciate ourselves. We need to understand that we're such a blessing, um, to be, you know, to be here today. And, you know, we've all got a unique qualities and abilities and to identify what those are so that you can start to value yourself better. And by only valuing yourself can others value the same. You know, others will start to respect you and value you the same. So yeah, just try that today, you know, look in the mirror and just see what is so amazing about you. Write it down, journal about it as well. I just think writing down such a huge, um, you know, blessing as well because, uh, when we actually write things down, then, you know, we're more likely to believe them as well. So yeah, so that would be a easy practice for you, for your listeners to do right now.

00:31:25 Speaker 2: Um.

00:31:26 Sana: I think that's a good way to, uh, close this conversation. And before we wrap up, for, for our listeners, uh, if they would, want to connect with you, follow your work. Keep this conversation going with you long after this episode ends. where, where can people connect with you?

00:31:48 Anu Verma: Uh, please do, uh, come along to my social media. That seems to be the best platform. So Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, if you just search my name, Anu Verma or my, uh, brand name, which is victim to Victor with a number two, and then you can find me. And if you want to read more about me, then check out my website, which is victim to victor dot net within number two. I'd love to hear from you all.

00:32:14 Sana: Absolutely. So listeners, I'm going to drop all the details and links in the show notes. So yeah, and you can connect with Anu, check out her social media profiles and, check out the work that she's doing, through, victim to Victor. And, uh, I'm gonna thank you so much for this really candid conversation. Um, in some ways, uh, I personally could, you know, in some parts find myself. So I really, really appreciate you being open, honest, and, you know, grounded as well.

00:32:51 Anu Verma: Thank you so much. Yeah. That's, that's the only way for each and every one of us. Vulnerability is strength. So yeah, don't be ashamed of your story or your journey because you know, each and every one of us is special and unique. So appreciate yourselves. Thank you.

00:33:09 Sana: Totally. One hundred percent. And to whoever is listening to this right now, uh, maybe you are in the car, uh, maybe before sleep or maybe at the end of a long day. Um, I want you to know that if any part of this conversation touched something in you, it is not random, but it's your own self quietly asking for attention. You don't have to do anything dramatic with it. Just notice. Just like what Anu said. Journal it. Write it down. Just breathe. Just let it be a little softer in there. Then it was probably a few hours back. So this has been the mindful living show. I am Sana, and take care of yourself gently. I'll see you in the next episode. Thank you so much.