This is an AI transcription, apologies for any typos.

And then I remember being ushered into this room where there was a cacophony of noise. There was lots and lots of people are shoved into this room, lots of families and amongst all the hustle and bustle, we were directed into this room and we clocked eyes. So many

men that I've come across whilst doing this podcast tell me that they've been shaped by the kind of man that their father was to them. In his work, Paul bannisters organisation, man health supports men facing an array of mental health challenges. Events in his childhood might have shaped at this career choice. The year was 1969. Paul Bannister and his brother Neil, were at home on a day like any other, playing quietly, when a group of relatives dropped by to take them on a day out. Paul and Neil jumped happily into the car on aware of their destination.

We were very excited to be taken out on a day trip to where we had no idea so it was a great adventure for us. So we arrived at the destination. And we were like to coil springs to your boys who had been on it and trapped in a car for three hours. And my auntie opened the door and shouted

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meal. Oh, come on, it's time to go.

I remember it being a winter day. It was very, very cold. We both had our big courts on so we run out into the open spaces. And we were running around it was a garden area. We've happened across this waterfall with had been the window the waterfall was in was in full floor. And it was behind the fence this waterfall and I vividly remember looking at this waterfall and thinking wow, this is extraordinary. Neil and I were captivated by this cascading water as your boys are doesn't take a lot to captivate young boys. And I remember our relatives shouting Neil Paul, come on, it's time to go. We were getting taken into this huge stone Victorian building and and I remember climbing up some stairs and walking into this building, thinking we are what excitement for this content, we had no idea what to expect. And then I remember being ushered into this room where there was a cacophony of noise there was lots and lots of people ushered into this room, lots of families. And amongst all the hustle and bustle, we were directed into this room and we clocked eyes. So we recognise this familiar face amongst this throng of people and we were directed to towards this person. And my face lit up when I realised that the person across the room was my father, who we hadn't seen for quite a while. We sat down at a table face and my father. And my father was excited to hear about what was going on in our lives and was asking us lots of questions about what we're doing and what was going on. And we were answering probably a small boys do with very limited answers. We were just excited to be where we were and looking around there our environment and wanting to go and explore really saw there wasn't a great deal of interaction at that time. I recall after spending time in this in this room with my father, there was a Tannoy and the tonne, I said,

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visiting time is over can all prisoners make their way back to their selves

and all the metal chairs been pushed backwards and all at the same time in unison. And that noise and all the men leaving the room again in line. And at that point, we said our goodbyes to our father and we were confused as to why he was leaving, and not coming with us. He was being directed in back into the depths of this Victorian stone building. And we were left in this room with our with our relatives.

Just curious, Paul, as a five year old in 1969, to have that experience where you're walking into this prison. You don't really know what a prison is, right? You're just a young boy, you're excited to see your dad. What impact did that whole experience have on you, not just as a five year old, but going into your adulthood essentially, as well.

I think as a five year old, he probably had very, very little impact on my life. I mean, I knew my father wasn't there. And he wasn't no longer part of our lives. But in fairness, he wasn't really a big part of our lives before he before he left our lives. He had little to do with us remember, this was the 1960s and the women in the household, whether the primary caregivers and the men went out to work and the men you know, put the food on the table. So they didn't play a huge role in our in our lives as young children back in the 1960s. Thankfully, that's changed a great deal. So yeah, so the impact was obviously my dad wasn't there. My mother was on well. But again, that didn't impact us really because we were small children. We probably weren't aware of that and that and that was that was hidden from us. It wasn't till till I got much older in my life and started reflecting on many of the decisions I made throughout my life. Some many wrong decisions. Decisions made because I had no male role model in my life perhaps, because I had no guidance. All the decisions that are made in relationships may mean relationships that was certainly defined by by not understanding what a relationship is and what it should be. All these things that I did in my life were probably defined by, by what happened back in the mid 1960s. In our house that night,

I can definitely relate to that. Because you do look at situations to happen to you as a kid, and you don't realise at the time until you get older, as to how you're defined so much by traumas that happen to you as a kid, they really do shape you, and then there's an opportunity, then that's presented to you to say, Do I actually allow this experience to define me? Or do I actually break the cycle? Yeah, without a

doubt, I mean, I reflect now with what I do for a living now I work with, with with men who was struggling with problems in their lives, and are reflected a great deal on what happened to me in my childhood years. And we did experience childhood trauma, we did experience adverse childhood experiences, which, which I now know, have defined my life, you know, under the under life of my siblings, so So there's no doubt about it, that my life was defined by their moments, and my life could have gone either way, in terms of, you know, how that trauma could have affected me. You know, once I remember getting the fortune told when I was in my 30s, which is something, you know, yesterday was encounter people with, someone said, I'm going to read the palm of your hand, and the read the palm of my hand, and they said, You are destined to be an alcoholic. And I thought, well, that's strange. There's no history of alcoholism in the family. But now I recognise the fact that, could it be connected to my childhood trauma, because we know that trauma is often the gateway to addictions. And I often wonder, had had had she been able to see something in me as a person, I don't really believe in the ability for someone to read a person by by looking at the palm of their hand. But again, it was it's interesting to know if that was an insight into into me into my personality from what she knew of me.

What an interesting thing for someone to say to someone else. That you're destined to be an alcoholic. Were they were they the words that they were used? Yeah, yeah,

yeah. Yeah. Well, you will be an alcoholic. She's the exact words where you'll be an alcoholic before you're 30. So it was a very strange, very strange thing to hear. She knew me is it she probably knew whether she could see something in me whether I have got an addictive personality. I don't know. You know, I'm very driven. So it could be it could be that she saw that in me. I am very driven as a person. I am searching for something. I don't know what it is I'm searching for but I am searching for something in my life. I don't think I've found it yet. I'm never satisfied with what I achieve, which is a failing in myself, because there have been some major achievements in my life. But I never take any satisfaction for them. I always seem to be searching for for something else. Which again is defined my life and I don't know what it is I'm searching for. I

wanted to ask you about your dad. What was he in prison for? And how did that relate to the family and and your mother as well.

My father was in prison was imprisoned for domestic violence me my father on that, on that evening tried to kill my mother with it with a kitchen knife. So he was sent down for attempted murder. How

was that communicated to you? And and what age were you when you found that out? It

was still back again. It was in the 60s and 70s were as children we lead very sheltered lives. And we adults never, never, not like they do now. They seem to share everything with the children. We were we were sheltered from that. And it wasn't till I was probably a teenager that I became aware that that had happened. And another interesting part of that is that I didn't realise until I was much older that my mother suffered really badly from post traumatic stress disorder, which led to her having quite severe depression. And she look back now and I can see it now that she was really struggling she was bringing bringing up for small children in the 60s. The sole breadwinner in the house. That must have been extremely difficult for her she was working extremely long hours. But there was no real connection from her with us. And I think that was a consequence of the of her post traumatic stress disorder and her poor mental health. And

I think about your mother as well having PTSD in those times in the 60s and 70s. Not much was known about it back then. So what a difficult experience it was for her, because nowadays, people can immediately say, Oh, well, that's PTSD because of the stressful scenario that you went through. But my heart goes out to her because she didn't know what she was going through. Right. And probably a lot of people didn't either.

Yeah, I don't do it. I know, for a fact she would have done that, where there would be no knowledge, like you said, the late 60s, early 70s, a victim of that level of violence, and certainly she didn't get any aftercare, or any counselling. So yeah, I know, at one point, social services were very, very, were looking at me, my mother was that Ill looking to take us all into care. And my mother fought tooth and nail to keep us out of care, or the care home system. So you know, she, you know, kudos to her, she she, you know, what she did for her children. When she was quite unwell herself. It's called nothing but admiration for her for doing that, and deep love for her for doing that, and saving us from going into the care home system.

And we talked before filming, you asked me a question about what drives me. And we were talking about role models. And you just alluded to that a few minutes ago about role models about wanting a role model feeling like you didn't have a male role model in your life. And it's interesting how you've gone down this route of having man health, your Men's Health and Welfare organisation where you go into different businesses, and you give talks about different issues that men, men face suicide, depression, anxiety, things like that. And the fact that you didn't have that male role model as a kid, do you think you're then playing the role of a male role model to lots of other men now, to give people what you didn't have?

Yeah, without a doubt, I think I don't want to define myself as a role model, much like you do. But I would like to pass on my knowledge and my experience, and my my yearning to be to be a better man, I really do feel that as a gender, that there's a there's a lack of real role models, there's a lack of direction with a lot of men, and, you know, listening to these stories, well, the men have come through this trauma and come out the other side and are there to support to the man, I'm really, really driven by by helping others. I don't know where that stems from. But I'm really driven to help other men I just as much as I possibly can I get great pleasure in, in supporting other men, and if I can share my story with them, and they can take something from that. That's really, really important. And to me, it's really important, what drives me. You know, I think we, as men can do can do better. I think we get portrayed really, really badly in the media. I think there's lots of good men out there lots of good men who care passionately about their communities, who care passionately about their families, who care passionately about making a difference in the world. I just think they need that encouragement to, to show their worth to the world. And that's, that's really important to me, given them their strength and give them the voice to be able to do that.

Going back to when you were a child, and you're this little boy whose father is not around because your father's in prison. Do you feel like you weren't helped to become the man that you want it to be? And now it's almost like you're, you're giving people an opportunity to get something that you didn't have? Without

a doubt. I had no roadmap at all to being a man, no roadmap whatsoever. I didn't know what a man was. I didn't know what a man should do. I had to find all this out for myself. And I encountered did there I did many wrong things. I did many right things. But it was all a learning process. And I'm still learning now. What it is to be able to mine and I reflect all the time about myself wanting to be a better man, what can I do? And was really, really difficult. And I found I find now my life would have been totally different if I'd had a good male role model. I do believe that. And I was I've always yearned for that good male role model. always yearned for that. That I father figure that I'd never had.

Yeah, it's an interesting one because my my real dad was never around. He's from Ireland. He lives in America and I saw him every two or three years. And that was that definitely impacted me as a As a kid, my stepdad worked a lot. He was a coal miner and worked after that worked 667 days a week shift work. So we didn't really see that much of him as a kid as well. And I think my life would have been different if I'd have had a strong male role model who was who was around and was able to teach me certain things. And I suppose it's, maybe I'll look back and think, have I avoided becoming a father until I feel like I'm happy with the man that I've become? Because just like yourself, I'm still learning, still growing, still trying to improve? And maybe it's almost this fear of, I don't want to give my son the same experience as I got as a kid. I want. So I think there is there is this sort of feeling of you never really going to be the perfect man. And I don't think that perfect man exists, right? Yeah, I

don't think he does what I think we should all strive to try and be the best version of ourselves every day. And it's interesting what you said about I had a daughter, who's when I was 33, and my daughter's 26. Now, and I love her dearly, and I strive to give her everything that I felt I never had an appreciating what you've got. I mean, I've got my health. I've got a beautiful daughter, I've got a lovely partner, who's very supportive of me, I've got great colleagues who surround me, I've got lovely friends, that that to me is, is worth a lot. That's contentment. That's, that's satisfaction. That's what we should all be striving for, I think, and I used to think work define me and we're work doesn't define you, as a person. What defines you as these relationships, what, what defines you is your connections, what defines you is what difference you make in the world. That's what defines you as a man.

It didn't start with you is the name of a book I've been reading. It's been a fascinating book. It relates to issues that we've inherited from our parents, Paul's problems were started by his parents. And the tough thing that he has to live with is that he was never told the story by either of them about what had happened between them in terms of his mum being attacked by his dad, and the impact that they had on both of them. His dad, being a lovely man, as Paul called him, shows that people can change. And perhaps prison was, as the Americans call it, a correctional facility for him, thereby correcting his past grievous mistakes. Do you think that serving time in prison absolves you of your crimes? Or do you think that there's extra work that has to be done above and beyond our prison system, Paul had the foresight and determination to make amends with his father later in life, before it was too late, which was not only about repairing their relationship, but repairing the traumas that he had experienced from him personally. Whether he knew or not, I'm sure it was healing for him personally, and perhaps helped him to go down a different path with his own child. What are we all searching for? And will we ever find it? All the jobs and organisations Paul has set up over the years, seems to link with a resource he wished he had, whether it be looking for a male role model through being a teacher, or through his organisation, man health, or even through the charity set up for those with cerebral palsy like he has with his data. Therefore, he's clearly built for impact, and not only profit, when businesses are built with this in mind, the drive and determination in my opinion is completely different, and therefore more rewarding, unsuccessful. It must have been incredibly challenging for Paul growing up the day to day of not just missing your dad, but not understanding where he actually was, and why he was in prison for both himself and his brother. This happened in the 60s, but I'm imagining all the boys with their absent dads in prison in 2024. And thinking how much both parties are suffering, that this is a symptom of a wider crisis, and a lack of male role models. And the sad reality is a lot of kids with dads in prison will become dads in prison, because that's the life they've been shown to lead. A vicious cycle that rears its ugly head unless, unless there's a real intervention made. It cost the UK Government over 46,000 pounds to house just one prisoner a year. And there are nearly 100,000 prisoners in the UK prison system. That's 4.6 billion pounds. Money that I'm sure could be better spent on an intervention to a young boy, before they get involved into a life of crime. What do you think needs to be done to give boys the male role models that they so desperately need it