0:00:00 - Kiffanie Stahle

finding an accountant, finding an attorney, your network is your best resource. Going to the local events where people gather and have conversations. Not only is that great to like, help build your skills and get new marketing ideas and do all of those kinds of things but it also is a great place to be. I really need a new accountant. Like, who do you use? And you walk around the room and you'll hear the same name four or five times and you're like, okay, that's the person I'm going to call, because they have and people have good things to say about them.

0:00:35 - Natalie Jennings

This is the Photo Business Help podcast, a resource for photographers of all levels, from brand new to burnt out, who believe that business growth starts with personal growth. I'm your host, natalie Jennings. I created Jennings Photo back in 2010 and have been happily full time since, but not without some mistakes along the way. Those lessons, plus what's really helped me thrive financially and personally, are what I want to share with you so you can grow with your photo business too. You'll also hear stories from other photographers and industry folks, as well as my favorite ways to be more mindful and happier on this journey.

So if you are in that place in your business where you're like what do I need legally? What do I not need to be spending my time and money on legally, then this is a perfect interview for you to tune into. My chat today with Kiffin is all about those things particularly, we dive deep into, like when you might need things and why you might not need things or need things. Does that even make sense? So, in other words, just covering all the legal bases and trying to save you some time and money when you don't need to be doing certain things just yet. So stay tuned for this interview. But first a few words from the folks that support this show. Well, thank you for being here. So you're in your RV. You said.

0:02:08 - Kiffanie Stahle

Yes. So in 2020, in the midst of the pandemic, I moved into my RV full time, because that's what you do when you're just like life is presenting an opportunity that you've wanted to take advantage of for a long time and now, all of a sudden, the cards are aligning to do it. And so, even though it's a terrible time to do it, in some ways it's also the perfect time to do it, because everybody was isolated. I was hanging out on. In the Western United States, we have so much public land that's available that you can just post up on with your RV, and as long as you have your own water, as long as you have your own way to dispose of your trash and your waste, then you can stay there for two weeks and you're pretty isolated, and so I got to hang out in beautiful places and be self isolating at the same time. So it was. I've been doing it for almost four years now and it's great.

0:03:04 - Natalie Jennings

Oh, that's awesome. So where actually are you right now?

0:03:07 - Kiffanie Stahle

Yeah, so I'm in Southern Utah, near St George, which, if you're familiar yeah, familiar with, like Zion and all that kind of stuff, it's kind of down in that area and so it's. I've been here actually a month longer than I had anticipated, but it's a great spot. So but it's just, it does snow in St George and we've had some freezing temperatures and you know it's not an ideal winter location. I'm ready to go to Arizona, which is where we're going on.

0:03:36 - Natalie Jennings

Oh, right on, Cool, now it's beautiful Every time I've driven. I've driven from Minneapolis to LA quite a few times and to Denver quite a few times, but every time I bet Denver to LA stretch, which is about a 15 hour drive. There's this chunk where you hit Utah and sometimes the Northern tip of Arizona, and it's just like being on another planet. It's so beautiful and it's so vast and it's just stunning. It just goes on forever.

0:04:02 - Kiffanie Stahle

Yeah, it's gorgeous, yeah, and you know, like it is just, it is so different than so many and there's so much diversity.

Like people think of the desert as a very specific thing, but there's just so much diversity even in the desert, because you've got the high desert and the low desert and the you know all the different stuff and, yeah, it's just, it's been a great.

We're in a time where, as a country, we're getting more and more polarized, and one thing that I really love about the RV community is like, yes, there are polarizations, but everybody sits around the campfire and can enjoy each other and have conversations and tell stories and get to know each other, and so it's a very unique community in that way that, like, we're actually having the conversations that everybody should be having and learning about each other. And it's been an experience that has taught me that there are so many more awesome people in this country than I thought there was and so many, you know, like even someone who has vastly different political views in me, like they still are. They have a lot of times these views because they had a very different life experience than I do and when I hear their story I can see why they ended up the way they ended up, and so it's been a great experience. I've really enjoyed it.

0:05:24 - Natalie Jennings

Well, and you get that opportunity to have like actual in-person community sort of built in, where you're in-person around a fire, whatever, with folks and that will always humanize somebody, compared to someone's random comment on social media.

0:05:40 - Kiffanie Stahle

Right, compared to talking to a screen.

0:05:41 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, so that's an awesome experience, very cool. I have one RV question and then I promise we'll get to the actual photography related stuff. But how do you deal with the internet situation?

0:05:54 - Kiffanie Stahle

So a lot of the new RVers use Starlink. So Starlink now has a program that you can, no matter where you are. You just buy, like the zone is like the United States and Canada, and as long as you're in that zone, then you have service, no matter where you set up. Since I started before Starlink was really a thing, I use cell data. So I have a very robust and expensive cell plan that covers all of it, and then I actually have it's like a router that takes SIM cards and so it provides a wifi network inside the rig and then, since what I like to do is the not sitting in a city kind of camping, I like to be posted up out in the boondocks. I have a cell booster and so it won't take zero signal to signal, but it will take a small signal and amplify it so that it's a stable signal.

0:06:52 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, cause your connection's great. And one of the things when I was very seriously researching getting an RV. I've done it so many times in my life, I have so many notes I should just do it, but that's a different conversation. But it's always been the internet, it's like. So, like 10 years ago when I was looking at it I was like, okay, this is not good.

0:07:09 - Kiffanie Stahle

It's funny because I hear that all the time of like that's the thing that stopped me and I've like that's the least of your worries, like that is like not even. It's never. There's only one time and, granted, I do some research before I like go to a place to find out there's tools and resources out there to make sure that you're gonna find a place that's gonna have the cell signal that you need, or with Starlink, it's not really an issue. But you know, there's only been one time that I've showed up a place that I thought I was gonna have internet, that I didn't, and it was in Wyoming and up on the where the road was to go into the campsites great signal, super blazing fast.

But all the campsites were along the Green River and you had to drop down off the mesa down into the next to the river where all the designated campsites were. You started going down there. Signal was gone. So what I did was just I had carry a golf umbrella with me and so the dog and I would just hike up the hill behind us, take the golf umbrella, I'd take my iPad up there and a couple of times a day we'd go up and I'd answer emails and I do things and then I'd get my next work assignments and then I hike back down the hill and work at the rig and then hike back up at the end of the day. So, but that's really the only time I've ever had that problem. It's really it's not an issue that should be the least of your concerns of going full time. Let me tell ya.

0:08:34 - Natalie Jennings

I know I've read so much about it and I'd love to continue that conversation, but we're on a photography podcast, so we'll get to that, but it's still. It's relevant. I mean, a lot of photographers want to do the travel thing.

0:08:46 - Kiffanie Stahle

It's relevant. I mean, I meet a ton of people who are making a living out here by taking pictures of beautiful places.

0:08:54 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, it's a thing. Well, let's start with just so. When you reached out to me, one of the things that I thought was interesting is you really wanted to talk about, as from a lawyer's perspective, a lawyer who used to be a photographer, or probably still are, but just doing more lawyer-y things now?

0:09:09 - Kiffanie Stahle

More lawyer-y things now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:09:11 - Natalie Jennings

Why you feel like some of the larger I'd want to get it in your exact words but essentially, why some larger legal products or projects are not useful for photographers.

0:09:24 - Kiffanie Stahle

Yeah, so I mean.

So part of this RV lifestyle has been minimalism, like figuring out simple frameworks that are strategic but also really flexible, because that's what my life is these days, and so that kind of resulted in me really streamlining my own business and starting to think about those I work with.

How can we streamline their businesses as well? And most of the lists that you see out there for like these are all the legal projects you need to do as a photographer. They're written from an attorney's perspective to get you to pay them fees, or they're written assuming you have a large chunk of money to spend upfront, and most photographers most creatives in general are bootstrapping their businesses. They're starting it off as a side hustle while they still have another job, they're using savings and they have a very limited amount of money. So I think it's important to only focus on those legal projects that are actually gonna help you strategically, Like we don't need to do something just to check it off a list. If it has no relevance to the product or service that we deliver to our clients, why are we doing it? And so most of the lists you see out there create busy work for you, create waste of time and resources, because they're not actually helping you reach your goals, they're not actually helping you move your business forward.

0:10:55 - Natalie Jennings

I love the idea of minimalism and also just taking I talk about it sometimes on the show, but just like just getting down to the basics of what you really need to do. And it's sort of like building the house and then you can decorate it and paint it later. But you gotta like build the house instead of getting distracted by like what kind of furniture you wanna put in the house before you have a house. But all that to say, I'm curious like what are some of these items that photographers might get roped into?

0:11:22 - Kiffanie Stahle

Yeah, so the first one that people do way too quickly is an LLC. In some states, an LLC is very cheap. In other states, like California, which is where I'm licensed, an LLC at minimum is $800 a year, whether you make a penny or not. In Massachusetts it's $520 a year, whether you make a penny or not, and so an LLC is one of those that people think you need to be, and it doesn't always make sense. Like I have a client who has been a creative in business for more than a decade and an LLC still doesn't make sense for her. Like we'll make that transition when it's ready and she knows what those items are, that like when she does these certain things. Then we're gonna have that conversation. But that's one thing that people jump into quickly. Another one that's the shiny thing is a trademark registration and a trademark registration.

0:12:15 - Natalie Jennings

I just rolled my eyes for people that are listening. I'm sorry can't give you that.

0:12:20 - Kiffanie Stahle

A trademark registration can be super powerful and can vastly increase the value of your business. But doing a trademark registration through places like LegalZoom is giving you an expensive piece of paper. So you really need to invest in getting it done properly and you need to, in that process, make sure you're getting something that is worth protecting. You know, like I have a client who did a trademark on her own before she came to me and her trademark is so descriptive that it's really a waste of money. It was a waste of money for her to get. Yes, she has it, but I can never do anything to enforce that trademark.

0:12:59 - Natalie Jennings

Well, before we run down the list a little more, I'd love to just like pick apart both of these just a little bit for people listening. If an LLC is not something that needs to be rushed into, I'm assuming you're suggesting that a sole proprietorship is often enough.

0:13:14 - Kiffanie Stahle

A sole proprietorship is perfect. Yeah, so the four basic legal types are sole proprietorship, partnership, llc and corporation. And a sole proprietorship and partnership are basically the same thing. Just sole proprietorship is you're doing it alone, and partnership you're doing it with one or more partners business friends, collaborators and those you just automatically become as soon as you start offering products or services. If you're doing it by yourself, you're a sole proprietorship. If you're doing it with one or more friends, you're a partnership. It's just an automatic kind of thing.

You don't have to do anything to become one of those LLCs and corporations. You have to go to your state and say I opt to become these. You have to file paperwork, you have to do those kinds of things, and that comes with costs, it comes with pros and cons, but and it's one of those things that makes sense for many people at some point in time Just as a quick side note, if you're becoming a corporation because your accountant says you need to be an S corp, which is an IRS only designation, your accountant is wrong. You could be an LLC, have the less requirements from a legal standpoint while getting the tax benefits of an S corporation. So correct your accountant, go to somebody who understands.

0:14:40 - Natalie Jennings

That's a good point. I I've my accountant. I go through a place called Fox Tax here in Minneapolis, but the point of their organization in the beginning and sort of as they've evolved through the years I've been with them over 10 years is to work with people that are specifically artists, musicians, photographers, so they know the business structure inside and out and they're able to make really good decisions for me based on that. And I think that that's you know, everybody's got a little nuance in their life.

0:15:09 - Kiffanie Stahle

So I would just say find an accountant that gets what you're doing, because the first accountant I ever went to Most definitely yeah, if you are a photographer that sells a lot of prints by yourself through your own online store, make sure you get someone who understands e-commerce and all of the nuances of sales tax. If you are a service provider, make sure you get someone who understands you primarily are selling your photography services and happen to sell books and those kinds of things prints through a third party site that just delivers them to you. Make sure you have somebody who understands that those nuances. An accountant can be a very powerful team member and often should be one of your first quote. Unquote hires.

0:15:54 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, I agree, I agree totally. So if you're feeling like your accountant's not getting what's going on again, my first accountant did not really understand what was happening in the photography industry and it was so obvious and I luckily had a friend to recommend this other company and it was like night and day. So if you're feeling like any way, like you're not on the same page, just maybe check out someone else.

0:16:18 - Kiffanie Stahle

Yeah, and just like finding an accountant, finding an attorney, your network is your best resource Going to the local events where people gather and have conversations. Not only is that great to like, help build your skills and get new marketing ideas and do all of those kinds of things but it also is a great place to be like I really need a new accountant. It's like who do you use? And you walk around the room and you'll hear the same name four or five times and you're like, okay, that's the person I'm gonna call because they have and people have good things to say about them in the community. So yeah, Sure.

0:16:52 - Natalie Jennings

So a lot of what we're covering too is like this idea of like you don't have to break the bank immediately, your business is gonna evolve and you may have need for these things. But when we talk about like LLC and trademark, what is another thing to sort of look out for that might be like super expensive and not necessary right away.

0:17:09 - Kiffanie Stahle

LLC and trademark are the two big ones that people do. So I think with photography it kind of depends. Copyright registration can fall in that bucket depending upon the kind of photography you do, right. So wedding photography copyright registration is a waste of your time. If you are primarily doing stock, then copyright registration should be on your short list of projects. So copyright registration can go either way, based on the kind of photography that you do.

0:17:40 - Natalie Jennings

No, that's helpful to hear, though, because this is mostly lifestyle photographers tuning into this. So weddings, families, that kind of stuff and I've been told that before by another lawyer that was like that's probably not doesn't need to be at the top of your list if you're doing weddings.

0:17:55 - Kiffanie Stahle

Doesn't need to be at the top of your list. No, if there are certain stuff that you decide you want to move to stock, like you know, if there's certain stuff you want to kind of branch into that, then that's the stuff we focus on registering. If you're gonna create a book or something like that, then we're gonna register the book, but just your client work not worth doing.

0:18:15 - Natalie Jennings

How challenging is that process if someone were in the stock area and wanted to do that? I just just asking for the audience.

0:18:22 - Kiffanie Stahle

Yeah, so photographers have actually a great loophole in the Copyright Registration Act that a lot of other people don't do have, and that's that you can register an entire year's worth of content on the same application, and so it's a definite DIY project. It's not something that I have a handful of clients I do it for. They know how to do it. They just don't have the time to do it. But in general, I recommend that you at least learn how to do it for your business, so that if you have a project coming up, you can quickly file it on your own. It is a website that I always tell people we have to, like put on 90s hip-hop and remember what the internet looked like way back when, because it's a Government website that has not really updated very well.

0:19:07 - Natalie Jennings

I love those websites. They're so hilarious. They're just funny to use because it's.

0:19:13 - Kiffanie Stahle

So you know, I remind people, let's remember what the internet looked at the late 90s, because that's when this was created and we still have to use it that way. That's so fun. So it's it's kind of a clunky system. It's a system that uses a lot of legal jargon over. Really, you know terms that are easier to understand. So you know, having some resources that help you walk through at least the first time you do it Is good because, like there's one page on the screen that if you check a box, it's going to like add an $800 charge to your application and you don't need that, and so knowing, like the little Tricks of it is definitely worth investing in, just so that you can Really make sure you do it, do it right, and that that your registration is gonna hold up if and when you need to enforce it.

0:20:06 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, that's great. There's a lot of stuff and I think I'm just I appreciate that you brought up this idea of People that are starting businesses, are overwhelmed and they just have a lot going on and just recognizing like this is not something you need to worry about right now or maybe ever. Like I'm listening to it and I'm like, yeah, not copywriting stuff, you know.

0:20:25 - Kiffanie Stahle

So, yeah, I mean there's a handful of things that I think everybody needs to do, like regardless. So and what? And a lot of those are like what I call legal ish projects. They're not really legal projects. So one is Not a traditional business plan, but some sort of framework that you can use to guide your business decisions, some sort of framework that's gonna help you.

You know, when that next platform comes out or when that next expert podcast that you listen to says you need to do these things, that you can Go back and say, like what are my goals? What's? How is success defined for me? What am I using as milestones as I try to get there? That's more like the underpainting of a canvas really broad brush strokes that we can use to be like Is threads, like when threads came out, is that worth it for me or not? You know, like I can go back to this piece of paper and be like okay, like, do I think it's gonna tick any of these boxes? No, okay, then what this expert says I need to do, or what this new platform, new shiny thing out there is, it's not gonna help me get towards my goals. So Done, and you know again, living the RV lifestyle, like I've totally opted out of hustle culture, and so I'm like no, sorry, I'm not gonna add busy work to my business just because you want me to add busy work to my business.

Like you know, all I do is hang out with people on vacation and retired people, so I'm like I really only want to work two hours a day. That's fine, you know okay.

0:21:55 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, I think that's really useful, though Is really having, like you said, broad brush strokes. I talk about this, obviously, a lot in my coaching stuff if you've worked with me or if you've listened to this podcast at all but just the idea of kind of knowing where you're going. Everyone has a slightly different Place. They're starting from whether you want to go full-time and you're the sole breadwinner, or you have other Sources have been coming, your family and you just want to do it side hustle style, and just so many different ways that people are coming at this. So having an idea of what works for you is going to be Different than what works for me and what works for you, and it's important.

0:22:29 - Kiffanie Stahle

Exactly and like every expert is out there telling you, based on what works for them, and so you need to have a framework that you can use to evaluate those suggestions. That's really all they are their suggestions. They're not. People often take them as like oh so and so said I have to do this, so I have to do this, otherwise I'm not gonna be successful in business and I'm not complete crap. I would have used a stronger word if I would have known if it's allowed on this podcast, but it's complete, yeah it's yeah, totally well, let's okay.

0:22:59 - Natalie Jennings

So that's one. What's another thing that folks should do?

0:23:03 - Kiffanie Stahle

so what you should do is Permits and licenses. So pretty much every business needs at least a business Permit from your city or your county. You're gonna need something like that. If you are Selling any physical products, then you might need you're gonna need the sales tax certificate. So making sure you have the right permits and licenses. If you're another one that comes up for talk for photographers Is you've got a little 80, you and the back of your property that's your studio, and people come to your home quote-unquote to do sessions. You probably need a home occupancy permit for that. So making sure you have the right permits and licenses. One of those shortlist items and Any other shortlist items?

Yeah. So another legal ish one is Financial stuff. So making sure you have a business bank account and making sure you have an EIN from the IRS, an employee or Identification number you don't have to have employees to get it. It's basically equivalent of a social security number for your business, so that having business liability insurance, especially if you've got a studio space, is very, very high on the list.

0:24:20 - Natalie Jennings

There's a number of venues as a wedding for talk. I've shot weddings for over 10 years. I don't do them anymore, but I mean most venues that you would be shooting at now just require you to hold it.

0:24:32 - Kiffanie Stahle

Yeah, I mean, and a lot of them aren't gonna ask for the certificate, but it's buried in that that contract that you have a, that they're making that the bride and groom, or the couple that's being married, are Making sure that all of their vendors have the appropriate insurance.

0:24:50 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, that's a big one.

0:24:52 - Kiffanie Stahle

So and then contracts, contracts, contracts which is probably, you know of these, probably the highest priority for photographers, and Contracts get a bad rap. Contracts often are seen as something we're like lording over our clients or we're only having them to make sure we get paid or that we don't get screwed over. But I want you to flip your mindset around contracts to. It's a gift you're giving your clients because you're professional and they've seen the output that you've done previously and they want that same output. And by putting together a really simple contract, you're walking your client through of like. If we want this success at the end, this is the process we have to go through to get there.

I'm not trying to like be the bad guy. What I'm trying to do is make sure Both of us have what we need in order to get this successful. You know, you've seen my portfolio, you love what I do, you want those photos. This is the process we have to go through and that's really all. What is he's doing? Your? A contract Doesn't have to be 20 pages long, doesn't have to be stuffed with legal jargon. A contract can be an email, where you send your client an email after you have the initial session to say here's the bullet points of what we talked about Hit, reply and say agree, if you're on the same page. That when they reply and say yes, that set of emails I can take to court and enforces a contract. That's a contract.

0:26:28 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, they don't have to be terribly complicated, and I like to just think of like explaining to people how to manage expectations, so just trying to let people know like, hey, like this is what's going on and, in my own words, almost you know and that's it. It's like this is what the expectations are.

0:26:48 - Kiffanie Stahle

Yeah, no, and it's. It's something that I talk about with clients that it's almost as important to include what is in your package as what's not in your package, like to really spell out the like you know to make sure. Like the reason we're giving a contract is to make sure everybody's on the same page, by literally getting everybody on the same page. And you know for you know many of our clients we might be the first Professional photographer they've hired, like it's always been like. So somebody's friend has done a headshot for them, or you know their company has hired the people that comes in and do the headshots for everybody. Or you know those kinds of things.

You might be the first professional photographer They've ever hired and they don't know what industry standards are. You're walking into it. Knowing like this is how things work and this is what I'm doing is completely standard, but your client doesn't always know that, and so the more we can share that information so that we walk away from that conversation both having a good understanding about what will and won't be done and what's needed to get the beautiful photos they want at the end of it, the smoother our relationship is going to be. And that's really all a contract is there to do is to create Smooth, happy working relationships so that they go tell all their friends oh my goodness, you just got a gauge and you totally need to hire that wedding photographer that we had. They were so easy to work with, they were made it really easy. I knew exactly what I needed and how to work with them and it was great. You need to go hire them.

0:28:21 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, that's it, just want to keep it simple. Well, I think we covered a lot of stuff, hopefully to help people prepare and also save money and time, which is always really helpful, and I really appreciate that. Where can people find you and follow you and connect with you?

0:28:35 - Kiffanie Stahle

Yeah, so my website is the artist JD comm. But what I'm gonna encourage you to do is go to next legal step, comm, and on there I've got a quiz that you can take. That's it's like a video quiz and you're gonna answer some questions and I'm gonna give you the best next legal step for your photography business. And once you complete the quiz, then every single morning I spend Sometimes 20 minutes, sometimes two hours, doing personal replies to everybody who answered the quiz and giving you some additional Information and some ideas based on what you enter into the quiz. So yeah, so that's where you should visit and then you'll get to see my. You'll get to see my face, cuz right now you've only heard my voice. So yeah, beautiful.

0:29:21 - Natalie Jennings

Say that URL one more time. Next legal stepscom yeah, next legal stepcom yes, legal step. Okay, got it Perfect.

0:29:29 - Kiffanie Stahle

Thank you, it was so great to have you so your next legal step is what you're gonna do. Find out what you need to do, and that's the URL. Yeah well.

0:29:37 - Natalie Jennings

Thank you so much for taking the time to share all this with everybody and being on the show, and Good luck on your traveling south.

0:29:46 - Kiffanie Stahle

Yes, yeah, no, I mean, it'll be my fourth winter in Arizona. I kind of have got it, although I will say like this is my fourth winter there and the like places, the list of places I want to go in Arizona like exponentially increases every year. I only tick cross-off a couple and then it's like every year I go down and I'm like, oh, that sounds like. Somebody tells me about a place and I'm like, oh, that sounds super cool, let me add it to the place. But there's only so much that sounds so cool.

0:30:12 - Natalie Jennings

Well, happy travels and thank you for all of this advice. And, yeah, check out that quiz. If you're listening that sound and you're wondering about all the legal things, that is for you. So, yes, thank you. Have a lovely day.

0:30:24 - Kiffanie Stahle

Thank you.