if we want to fulfill the great commission and go and

make disciples, for those of us who get grace, love Jesus, we

wanna pour our cup into others.

But if we lined up a hundred men and women listening to this from a hundred

different churches who love Jesus, get grace, wanna pour their cup to others and

said, how's your disciple making going?

We would say, terrible cause we don't know what to do and who to do it with.

Welcome everyone to Seek, Go Create.

This is where we challenge conventional definitions of success, explore

stories of transformation in business, leadership, ministry, all kinds of things.

We mash it all together.

We're gonna be doing that today.

In today's episode, we have the honor.

I'm gonna be interviewing guy thats up in Dawsonville,

Georgia from my old home state.

Robby Angle, he's the president and CEO of True Face.

Got a diverse background.

We'll talk more about that.

Counseling aid work.

Ministry has a wealth of wisdom.

Now he's running this organization.

Got a lot of experience.

He's gonna bring the conversation.

So we're going to have fun talking about lots of things.

Leadership, business ministry.

Robby, welcome to Seek Go Create.

Thanks, Tim.

Super excited to get on this thing and, I'm excited for where this goes today.

I'm ready for anything.

Are you really ready for anything?

we'll see if I'm actually ready for anything, but I'm feeling ready.

It is like one of these things we say, it's like I'm ready for

anything, but it's like there's some things I'm not sure I'm ready for.

I'm not ready for some stuff, but I wanna say this, man.

you got one of the coolest names ever.

I'm about to get to my first question.

Robby Angle sounds like you could front a rock band.

did you ever consider that when you were growing up or was ministry

and business all your stuff?

I appreciate that.

I have zero musical talent in my body, and my full name is

actually Robert Bruce Angle iii.

so my dad pulled me aside when I was in eighth grade, and he's

Hey, are do you rob Robert Bob?

do you, are you ready to go into your grownup name?

And I was like, nah, man, I'm not selling out.

I'm staying Robby with a y even though, it, one of my mentors

was like Robert Bruce Angle iii.

You need to own the strength of that name.

And as a firstborn son, eight Enneagram.

high drive, high achiever Robert Bruce Angle III fits a little bit more than

Robby, but Robby keeps me, in my seven wing having a little bit more fun.

Man, you got all kind of ways you could go.

You could go like the, the wealthy Robert Bruce, I'm thinking Batman.

You could, but then I like Robby Angle.

It sounds like a name that might be on the side of one of these big old huge casinos

in Vegas, and you've got one of these illusion magic shows, you know, r Angle.

Thank you, Tim.

I received that.

Do you,

Oh yeah.

now that we've had fun with that, let's, let's

get to my real first question.

Not that those aren't cool things, but my real first question is, let's just

pretend I'm somewhere in Dawsonville, Georgia and we bump into each other

and maybe we don't really have context, not a business setting, not

a church setting, just out and about.

And I ask you what you do.

What do you typically tell people when they ask Robby, what do you do?

you want the real question or the professional question?

Why don't you gimme both and we'll judge 'em

We'll give a score on each one.

How about that?

All right.

What do I do?

I spend every day trying to trust and follow the way of Jesus.

And that looks like being a husband to Emily for 18 years, a dad to eight kids,

and eight years, six boys, two girls, and.

As part of the body of Christ, my specific identity I think

God has made me as an activator.

So that's the personal one.

Professionally, I lead a 27 year old ministry that, develops grace based

relational discipleship resources to equip people to experience deeper

relationships with God and others.

so it's interesting.

I'm glad you did that cuz it gives me a little bit of a trigger for something.

I don't really like that question.

What do you do?

Because it's really anti who we are in many ways.

It speaks to titles and things like that.

But you gave me two, so I'm gonna dig a little bit.

we're not buddies, but we're about to either be buddies or

frenemies or something like that.

Why?

Why do you think we have two?

Why?

Why do we need to, why do we live that way?

How's that for jumping in the deep end right out of the gate?

I, I don't know, shallow end very well.

So I love the deep end.

we have two because it's societally more appropriate that we care about

what people do professionally because that gives us indicators for how to

classify 'em and figure out what will help us, in our relationship with people.

So what do you do, I wonder, I'm, this is all new thought.

I'm thinking out loud as an extroverted thinker, I think we ask people because

it's societal and it helps me know what you can do for me in some ways.

and it's just a easier classification for identity, which is the source of most

of our issues, as humans, that it is the source of a lot of our identity cuz it's

easier to grab on purpose fulfillment, the longs of our heart through what we do.

Cuz we spend the most amount of our time there and it's harder to get clarity on

the nebulous relational dynamics that we really long for that I described.

So probably just easier.

I think it is easier, maybe the path of least resistance or

I've thought about it myself, cuz I do similar, so I'm not sitting here asking

a question that I'm, quote unquote so virtuous and I've got it figured out.

Out.

But, I wonder at times if I'm seeking acceptance, I wonder at times if

I'm trying not to be antagonistic, I wonder at times if I'm skirting

this, am I a citizen of God's kingdom?

Am I a citizen of the world?

which is it?

And, so those are some questions.

I don't have the answers by the way, but any thoughts on any of those?

Yeah, I think you're normal.

Congratulations.

and it's, if it's a, I think you're talking about a normal tension to manage,

and Paul said, I'm a, I'm an apostle.

like there, there is confidence in who God made us and the roles, and that's

not something to be ashamed of, but it gets to the underlying tension.

Of how we see ourselves, how we see others, and this is the good stuff.

This is the identity stuff, that I think I triggered in you, which is fun.

I think one more thing on this and then I want to clarify some

things with the organization you're with and things like that to help people.

By the way, I enjoyed reading some of the books that, that we got

from you guys, and I appreciate it.

We'll get to those here in just a moment.

But I've always wondered about this I identity thing and I have found myself.

This is like another big question that's gonna either trigger some

people or they're gonna go, huh.

I've found myself over the last few years using the term Christian less and less.

And using words like follower of Christ, follower of Jesus, I don't even,

believer not as much and all of that.

What are your thoughts on that?

Because I think we're seeing some of that and maybe it dates back to, oh,

I don't know, around 2016 when we had an election and all of a sudden people

were, having all these weird things.

And then of course, a couple years later when they had this pandemic

thing and hard to know who was what and all that type stuff.

you seeing people do that a lot?

Or, is that normal or is that something odd also?

Yeah.

I think you're right.

we're in such a politicized, timeframe of our culture and society and unfortunately,

Christians have not done a good job being independent of the two party system.

And we've, it breaks my heart that the church, the body of Christ has found its

way and meshed in some ways and different political debates, or positioning,

which has discredited the gospel and what Jesus has to offer in so many

ways because it's a lose proposition.

Any type time.

You take a stand politically cause everything's politically charged.

And we live in a country with entire systems around, I wouldn't say

propaganda, but I would say propaganda trying to get us to think and click

and fear is the tool for that.

And b both sides, all of us.

There was a article, it was by Tim Keller, where it was a podcast by him.

It was brilliant.

he was talking about the four things he found in scripture.

The sanctity of life, of marriage, of justice, and of caring for the poor.

And he is isn't it interesting?

Liberals and conservatives major on two of those and minor on the others.

He said, where are the churches that major on all four of

those, like without reservation?

and just the irony in that divide, it's oh yeah, the evil one would

know that to try to, parse the church in the most divisive entanglement,

which is politics and it's a shame.

But I think it's so obvious now, like you're talking about, I think we have

an opportunity to detangle and it's mission critical if we see ourselves

as Christians, Jesus followers.

I, I have a hard time finding a rationalization for the commingling of

faith and politics right now because of the divisiveness that politics has.

I agree.

And here's one of the reasons why.

I kinda like to set things up as either or, which is not, I think there's more

nuance in the world than either or, but to me, I think there's God's kingdom

and there's the Babylonian system and I think the political structure is

primarily of that Babylonian system.

one, one little example, and I don't want us to get way off in the weeds

here, but it is very difficult if you're in the United States of America.

And for those listening in, we've got a lot of listeners in India and other

places, y'all probably have similar, really, Robby, is it possible for

someone to care for the unborn and the environment and be part of one party?

Oh yeah.

You know what I mean?

That's sad, isn't it?

it's wild.

And I'm not even, I'm not trying to state, I'm just say saying the

challenge of the system is really tough.

So anyway.

it is hard and the Keller thing of a church to radically

fight for injustice and in groups that are, not justly treated.

To fight for that as well as serving the poor and caring for the poor radically

and for the unborn children at the same time, to even say those things

and know you're gonna frustrate half the people in your church for either

side of those, if you really talked about it objectively indicates that

for way too many people, politics has got a primary seat emotionally than.

Then this way of following Jesus.

So back to your original question.

Yeah.

I found myself using the word as well.

just like evangelical, conservative, different words are just semantics

to describe what, not a group to me, but a way of how I see the

world and see eternity and see the answer to what the longings of my

heart are, which is the gospel.

So whatever words describe that.

The good stuff.

Yeah.

Very good.

Let's shift some cuz I wanna cover a few things I wanted

to say that I had written out.

My short bio entry that I did at the beginning, before

I finished up last night.

I'm gonna hold it up for those that are watching.

I read The Cure for Groups, which is a great fun book to read.

I was able to click through it.

And then I also have, and we'll talk more about these later, the

Embark, which is the, the companion study guide that goes with it.

But I got to the, your bio that was written at the end of this book,

Robby, and this one's, I kinda like this one better, but I didn't use it

because I didn't shift and all that.

But this is, it's starts off with that title that we talked about earlier, which

is Robby is the President and c e o of True Face, which I'm gonna ask you about.

This is where this is leading.

I'm about to ask you about True Face Lives in Dawsonville,

Georgia, which I thought was cool.

my dad passed away in December, but.

He was a huge NASCAR fan and I don't know if he is the favorite son of Dawsonville.

Is he still,

awesome.

Bill Elliott from Dawsonville was the favorite son and now it's gotta be Chase.

His son of the

up that way?

Does he?

They have a family compound where they're working on cars all the time and all.

Yeah, they do.

For those that don't know, bill Elliott was one of

the most popular NASCAR drivers.

My dad loved Bill Elliot.

So anyway, but this is one thing that I wanted to point out

and I wanna tie this together.

Prior to serving at True Face, Robby served for seven years at North

Point Community Church in Atlanta, Georgia, founded by Andy Stanley.

Son of Charles Stanley of First Baptist and I think they're still in

one of the top five fastest growing or biggest churches, communities in

all, I think nor NorthPoint still is.

Anyway, and you oversaw adult ministry environments and director

of men's groups while you were there.

That's why I think it's important with some of the things we're

gonna be conversing here.

And then you also have some other background here.

But before we go too much further, by the way, I really did like that's a

good bio there at the back of the book there cuz it kind of concise and all.

Before we go too much farther, please tie together cuz I shared

this before we hit record True face.

What is it?

How does it fit in here?

Because now I'm looking at all the books and True Face is all over all

the books and the podcast, which I listened to some of those yesterday.

So help me pull all this together and help the person listening.

It's like, man, we like this guy Robby.

He's cool.

He is not a front man for a rock group, or he is not a magician

or anything out of Vegas.

He does some things with this ministry.

What's up?

help me out here.

Yeah, so True Face was founded probably 28 years

ago, 27, 28 years ago, by Bill Thrall and Bruce McNichol.

They founded it as Leadership Catalyst, focusing on developing the core of

a leader, and the core of a leader is found in our his or her theology

and identity, how they see God and how they see themselves rooted in our

identity, how we see ourselves, that's interconnected to how we see God and.

How we create environments of trust is an interpersonal relational dynamic of, where

sh, where shame plays connected to our identity, where character, is affected.

so they wrote a book called The Ascent of a Leader, and in that it, it talks

about two, two ladders, the competency ladder and the character ladder, and

how most of us as leaders don't get derailed or stopped because of character.

we get, sorry, competency, we get stopped because of our character

limitations and the development of that.

Then about 12, so leadership consulting and then about 14 years

ago they wrote a book called The Cure Tagline is What if God Isn't Who

You Think He Is and neither are you.

It's an allegorical book, a hundred pager that has incredible theology and

identity baked into it as these guys are both pastors and John Lynch as well.

The third guy who wrote the book and.

They, there's a allegorical book and there's a premise of it that you come to

a fork in the road and there's a sign that says this way towards pleasing God and

this way towards trusting God and where those go pleasing God leads to the room of

good intentions and where Christians are doing just fine and doing more for God.

and that's more of the equation of more right behavior plus less wrong behavior

equals godliness, which a lot of us have.

Low grade.

that's what being a Christian means.

Now, trust in God looks like humility.

That leads to the room of grace where we experience in free, authentic

community and we mature into who God already says we are, which is as

righteous sons and daughters of the King.

So there's a line in that book that says, do we see ourselves as

sinners striving to be saints or as saints who occasionally sin?

And that theology baked into that is packed into that book.

So I'll get to your actual question of what is true face.

So I'm leading men's groups at North Point.

I'm doing a leader development pipeline.

And I read The Cure.

Somebody gave it to me from these old guys in Phoenix in

this ministry called True Face.

And it was the most impactful book on my life giving language

to this way of following Jesus.

So I infused it into every group.

At North Point, I bought enough boxes of the book that Bruce McNiel called

me one day and he said, who are you?

And I was like, I'm a huge fan, Bruce McNichol.

So I got to know the guys they were looking for, a new president.

and so the board said, Hey, we want you to consider doing this, to reimagine

an expression of a ministry beyond John Bill and Bruce to reach more people in

the next generation with this teaching.

And so I have just survived four years of founder transition, from a

me in a message based ministry from not one guy, but three guys and.

God has just blessed it, added favor to it.

and really what true face is that I inherited 24, 25 years of intellectual

property and brilliant teaching.

I'm a praxis guy.

I'm a yeah, but how guy?

I'm a systems guy.

And I was over 800 small groups, which forces you to think,

transferability of these truths, two and three steps removed from you.

And over the past few years, that's how the ministry has shifted.

You can imagine I inherited this intellectual property, and so that's why

we're building, grace based relational discipleship resources, building

a toolbox of resources to support whoever's listening, churches, leaders,

ministries, because we get stuck.

We know about God, but we have a hard time knowing God in our heart,

in our lives because, Truth does not transform trusted truth transforms

and trust is a relational word.

God has designed us to grow through the context of relationships.

We don't know how to do that well, and so our resources try to help

people apply truth in the context of relationships, to deepen their

relationships with God and others cuz that's where Christians are stuck.

We don't know how to experience this stuff.

We read about like peace and freedom and so we build small group studies,

one-on-one, conversational frameworks.

And really a key part of our ministry is a framework for relational discipleship.

It's a nine month group discipleship framework.

All of this stuff is free to serve the church, to help believers experience

deeper relationships with God and others.

That was a lot.

So you help people get closer to God, right?

Y'all, y'all got resources and tools in place there.

I took so many notes here.

This is almost like two episodes of stuff because there, there's so much written

richness there with all that you said, I mean there's the spiritual path we could

go on, there's the tools and resources.

But the thing that jumped out at me first, Robby, was I want to

know more about the transition.

This is maybe the executive leadership coach.

I work with leaders, leadership teams.

I'm sitting here thinking to myself, what was that like stepping

in and was it a transition?

Was it an immediate, was it a thus sayeth the Lord?

So y'all did it.

Was there some courtship involved?

What was it like?

And maybe I'll frame the question this way.

Give me a couple of things that were really tough about it, not just

on you, but the organization, and then some things that just really

went beyond your expectations.

there's no doubt they've got, great intellectual property.

there's gotta be some massive spiritual strength and brain power

behind that, that you stepped into.

I know that you've got, capability and character, you mentioned

it earlier, you, you've got abilities and talents and all that.

But what was really hard about it still may be going on

Oh

and what's going better than expected?

It, it has been one of the most challenging leadership

seasons of my life because it is hard, a message-based ministry.

And what I stepped into was really three ec, collectively gifted guys

with personal ministry expressions that were so effective that people

said keep doing that, and more of that.

So you had a support team helping them do their personal ministry expressions,

consulting, speaking, writing, all of which I don't have those skills.

And and people, donors were giving to the impact of the man more so

than the plan of the ministry.

So a discipleship, resourcing, equipping movement based ministry behind the

scenes is not easy to give to wells in Africa are way easier to give to.

And so I had an advisory team of three mentors sit at my table before I

considered this job, cuz I left NorthPoint to come steward this ministry and.

They said, yeah, we give you about a 20% chance you'll be there in three

years, for a couple different fronts.

One, just cuz you have no money, people, there's all kinds of

stuff that's gonna go wrong.

and two, because we don't know if you're gonna be there cuz you're

wired more entrepreneurially.

You love a challenge, you go on.

And that segues into a couple of the difficulties and blessings.

one of the hardest things was my own, issues.

I'm built as a sprinter and I feel like God has asked me to learn

to pace as a marathon runner.

And this might be my midlife crisis.

I turned 40 this year and it feels like God was saying, Robby, I want you to

run a marathon and I'm gonna give you a 10th of a mile direction at a time.

And I've been praying differently, thinking differently, but the most

disorienting thing has is that typically I'm a visionary strategist guy.

I'm like, oh, gimme 90 days.

I'll come up with a sexy two pager.

You know where we're going, mission, vision, strategy, all that stuff.

And I haven't had it for four years, Tim.

It's been like God has been, which I don't know how to tie my shoes

without seeing the strategic.

Outcomes of it, on a three to five year horizon.

So God's, I've been doing like the next right thing, and I know

when I see strategy clearly, and I know when I don't see it.

And this is the first season of my life.

I know I haven't known what that looks like.

Cuz the board said, reimagine in an expression of the ministry to reach

more people in the next generation.

I haven't seen that cl clearly, but it's been a wild practice of trust, at a deeper

level of, God, I'll do this next right thing, even though it doesn't make sense.

I don't see how the dots connect and then the next right thing

and the next right thing.

And the hindsight of that is just been ma it's been so humbling to watch where it's

like, God, I'm just along for the ride.

What do I do today?

what's the next right thing you have for me?

And that has been, the richest principle that God's been teaching me through that.

and the struggle in that, and the difficulty is a 25 year startup where

tons of impact in deep emotional, personal ways, to like donors who

have been impacted by these different resources, tools, experiences, and

the board saying, reimagine that.

what that means is two things narrow the focus of who we are, why we exist

as a ministry, because I'm moving from impact of men to a ministry plan.

And, in order to narrow the focus, I'm gonna kill off things slowly.

And so I'm gonna disappoint just about everybody who's donors.

And it's going, change is always hard on a good day for people.

And that's what the board asked me to do.

And so just the expectations which are deeply personal and emotional

for people that I disappointed, over the three years, that was one

of the harder components of it.

Yeah.

and plus, let's go ahead and throw in the mix.

So you've got the, it's not a, it's really not a startup, you're

saying it's a 25 year startup.

It is, but it isn't.

there's a board that's in place.

I'm sure there's employees.

There's.

Resources.

There's, there's the, the intellectual property.

You mentioned the word steward, which I appreciate it cuz that's the way

I'm leaning into defining leadership and all it's just we're steward

over what we've been gifted with.

But this is where I'm gonna, we're gonna dig just a little bit more here because

this is Tim learning as much about me.

I turned 60 this year.

You're turning 40.

I got a l I got a 20 year, extra bumps and bruises and stuff on you here.

When, when we say that word trust, I think it's one of the things that

we struggle with the most because I think we have conditional trust.

People that are wired to be strategists, visionaries, things like that.

My wife and I even had a discussion about it this morning.

I think that we trust, as long as we're able to control a part of our world,

Yep.

it's conditional trust.

And so I'm finding that there are groups of people like you, like me

and others that are going through this experience, and I'm gonna say

something and you could respond.

I'm wondering if there's a group of us that are being prepared for

something really cool that's coming up.

And when I say Cool, it may not be that cool.

Because I keep running into people very similar to Robby.

if you and I, if we were in our prayer time this morning and we felt like there

was some business idea, ministry idea that, I got, and you and I were talking

about it and we said, Hey listen, let's do this and let's pull a couple of people

in to help, by about the end of the day.

I'm guessing we could have some plans in place,

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

but whose plans would they be?

Yeah.

so what I'm gonna ask you to do is give yourself a grade.

How are you doing with that trust scale, with that, turning it over with that.

we're, we are so wired to be, if it is to be, it's up to me.

I'm controlling, I'm strategy, I'm a visionary and all that kind of stuff.

so give me, give us some stuff.

There's a lot, cuz let me tell you, there's so many people listening in,

Robby, that they're in the same situation.

This is where this redefining success comes in that we like to talk about here.

Because success would typically mean, the financial aspects of it, the measurements,

the things we can measure, the things we have control over, things like that.

So give us a little bit more.

I think how I answer this is important to that question.

Today I am at a 8.5.

that's because this morning I have, I've got something coming up in two

days that's really heavy and I've been carrying, and today I spent some time

really processing and talking to God.

what do you want me to know about this?

What am I carrying?

What am I afraid of?

Kind of those rhythms in my prayer life this morning.

And an indicator of that was one in my time what I felt like God was saying.

But two is the peace and the freedom that I've been carrying in my

bones about this that's different today than it was yesterday, which

is where I'm doing pretty good.

It's not the best I've been, but today is better.

And I think the beauty of trust is it has to be just today.

I can't trust tomorrow.

I can't trust yesterday.

And I think trust, If I can give some definitions to how core this is your

question, which you're alluding to pride.

A lot of theologians say pride is the chief sin.

I think of pride as simply says I can, that looks like

fear and control in my life.

And as an eight Enneagram, high drive, high achiever,

firstborn son, I'm good at this.

So I wake up every day way more comfortable to be in control, which

is a byproduct of pride, which says I can, and everything in the

world tells us that is a strength.

I can, you can pride, looks like fear and control.

Now the opposite.

This way of following Jesus humility is the chief virtue says, I can't.

Which simply means if I can't, I will let God meet those needs in me.

Do what he did to redeem me, reconcile me, be Christ in me.

And so trust is an action word, and it's a relational word that means to let.

So in humility, I can't, therefore I will trust God and you, my

brother, and let you love me.

Let God carry my needs of my stress.

About Thursday speak affirmation into me this morning about even

if I fail, what does that mean?

What is my identity?

let you ask me questions and be present with you and process this stuff out

loud, as we all have needs and we let God and others meet our needs.

And that's a super theological overview with some handles.

But that trust thing is daily and it is simply means to let God and

others meet needs because love.

Per the true face guys that I took over from, they define love as the process of

giving and receiving of needs being met.

So the process of meeting needs.

So love you can love me by asking good follow-up questions by giving me

attention because I have needs of being seen and soothed and safe and secure.

And just this conversation we can experience and practice love as new

friends, which we can't do if we don't trust each other because you can't love

me if I don't trust you and vice versa.

So that's a deep rabbit hole of, theology.

Go read the Cure.

It's all unpacked.

There a little bit more articulately.

Yeah, I like that.

That's good.

and one of the things for me that I just try to remind myself is that

the world doesn't revolve around me because there are times that I really

would like to think that it does.

what does it do?

This is just one quick sidebar, maybe, is when somebody has eight kids, six boys,

two girls married, is that preparation for this trust, or is it a hindrance?

Is it a challenge?

Yes, and both.

And yeah.

all the gift of parenting, whether we have one or eight, is we know, we, I at least

wake up focusing on myself and selfishness and the world revolving around me.

And the God knew that.

And the gift of parenting and marriage is that we get a practice love, which

is others focused and sacrificial.

And we do that with one kid and eight kids.

Yeah.

So tell me, go ahead.

Tim, I've, I wanna circle back cuz I, it took me a little

bit this morning to this, founder transition because there's a lot of

people listening in different phases of transitioning responsibility.

And there's a couple principles that I learned from Bruce and Bill that I didn't

verbalize, that I just took notes on to verbalize is that okay if I go there,

Absolutely.

Go ahead.

So let, I, I wanna kinda preface this.

These are some principles that when there's a founder transition

will be beneficial and helpful for anyone that might be going through

or experiencing something like that.

Correct.

which I think can be relatable to all of us as parents in

any of our roles because we are all in the process of leadership in different

circles of influence that God has us in.

And I will say the Bruce McNichol was the president that I took over

from the number one attribute.

Of a leader successfully handing over the baton.

Passing on is humility, which we just talked about.

So I won't go there.

And Bruce McNiel has been a case study in humility to me, which is why

I, without that I wouldn't be here four years into a founder transition.

And Bruce McNichol is still on our team full-time.

John, bill and Bruce fired themselves when I came on.

And so I could start with a clean slate of staff, which was a brilliant move

by the board and by Bruce McNichol.

They fired everybody and let me rehire the staff.

And I invited Bruce McNichol, the old president, back on, for

a season of six months and said, for some transition purposes, I

will hire you back for six months.

And we've been talking about it every six months since.

And the pros and the, his humility is just unbelievable now.

Back up a little further of where, why you can get to this point to be thinking about

transferring of influence, whether you're a founder, particularly as a founder or a

successor, or for any of us in our roles.

Bill Thrall, I was talking about Andy.

Bill Thrall was a mentor before I came to True Face, one of the

founders of True Face, and we were processing, Andy Stanley in transition.

Charles couldn't in, he couldn't, hand over to Andy.

So Andy and Louis Giglio left in their thirties as leaders to start NorthPoint.

Now Andy and the founders are getting into their sixties working through transition.

Charles processing with Bill and Bill Thrall said this.

He said whether an organization can transition and get into a new s cycle of

growth is, and he said this, whether or not the leader can entrust and empower

the next generation early and soon enough.

Whether the leader can entrust and empower the next generation early and

soon enough, entrust means I don't get it.

I don't see your plan.

I don't agree with your plan, because I would've already done it if I thought

that was the best plan, by the way, cuz I'm the leader, therefore I don't

agree with it, don't understand it.

But I trust you even if I don't see it and get it and I'm gonna empower you.

Here's the keys and the cash and the staff to do that.

That takes so much humility of a leader because we're protecting

and stewarding what we built.

And so to entrust and empower somebody with a different vision

is so stinking scary, that it takes so much humility to do right.

And most have a hard time doing that.

And I left North Point with a buddy.

He stepped into a president role at a 25 year ministry.

I stepped into a president role and he resigned about nine months ago.

And it was the typical terrible 80%, body bag, job type thing.

and there was another principle I went in watching him, can a board and a

leader, what are they really looking for?

And do they actually know?

Because there's really two big differences in transition, and this is for any of

us as we hand over our roles at work or wherever, are we looking for somebody

to manage what we did and how we did it?

Or are we looking for somebody to reimagine?

Now that's a different person.

And sometimes boards will go, we want somebody to reimagine, but

really they want somebody to manage.

And that founder is really wanting somebody to manage what they built

because that's why they built it the way they did cuz it was the best way.

And so we just need you to manage it and not reimagine.

And true face was actually, they didn't know when I first started

talking to him, I think they were looking for somebody to manage.

And then, and so I actually said no.

The first time they talked to me about the job, two months later, they, a lot

happened at North Point and at True Face.

And by the time I talked to Bruce two months later, he had a posture of

re-imagining, of trusting in empowering.

And so I knew for me, that's what I needed.

I needed to, I'm a disruptor, I'm an entrepreneur.

I'm a terrible fit for somebody to manage.

don't hire me.

I will fail.

but if it's reimagined, I'm a good fit for that.

So I think it's important for all of us in our roles to

wrestle with those two things.

What are we actually looking for?

And what does the organization need?

That's.

There, there's a word you used early on.

When I ask you about True face, you used the word steward, and one of the ways, in

my mind, I define the word steward, I've done some, I guess some teaching and some

things on this, is that I think that the culture that we're currently in, which is,

let's just say first world Westernized, whatever Americanized culture is, we

really do have an ownership mentality.

We think we own things.

you own the house.

I think I own this rv.

I think I own this, these, this equipment.

We think we own organizations.

We think we own people, we think we own staff, we think we own churches,

church buildings, all that type stuff.

I don't think we do.

Now, my paradigm is this.

In oh eight, we had over a hundred pieces of real estate.

We had, valued at whatever we had other companies.

And by 2013, all of that was poof, vanished.

So I thought I owned, so I kinda learned the hard way.

Not everyone does Robby, but see I think we're really just stewards.

I think almost everything, you just mentioned, eight children, you don't

own them, you're just stewards.

And and then here's how I help my definition, and I'll say this, and

then you can respond and give thoughts.

I think a steward is primary responsibility is to take care of

something and to return it in a better condition than when they received it.

Now, I could probably argue against that in some situations, but to

me it sounds like y'all are close to having something like that.

There were some founders, they were stewards.

Maybe they thought they were, maybe they didn't.

You've been moved into a, you've got titles and all that we talked

about earlier, but to, to me, the titles aren't as significant as

the heart and the mindset and I see you and that steward role and

trust in power you don't own though.

Anyway.

What are your thoughts there?

is that on track?

Does that make sense?

Does it fit?

I love that.

And I think that gives words to the strategic approach where I want it to be

true face, not Robby Angle Ministries.

I don't, I want to be like, all true face because that is a frame, that's

grace based relationships, resources that are independent of a man.

It's more of a posture that's transferable.

But tell me about, help me unpack for the leaders, the difference

between steward versus owner.

How do I lead differently if I'm a steward, if I see myself

as a steward in leadership?

here's the, I, you gave the great example

of this founder's transition.

There was a period of time where they wanted you to manage.

An owner is looking for a manager.

And then there was a period of time where they began to entrust and empower and

they began releasing and they allowed, now there was obviously multiple parties here.

I guess, you had to have the right mindset too, because listen, someone like

you or me could come in and say, okay, listen, we're gonna toss this thing out.

We're gonna, I'm gonna put my stamp on everything.

But I'm sure you had to really approach it with, you have, your

egos, there's people involved, even people that are extremely humble.

And so here's the, and this is the, this is where, and this is probably gonna

lead into our next phase of conversation.

One of the things I find and you did a great podcast episode where I think

it was titled, don't Call Me Pastor.

You were talking about that word, pastor.

I think that what we do is we position people to have the illusion of

ownership, and there comes a time when we have it, we're pure and everything's

great, and we're doing the things we believe that God's instructing us,

and maybe we are, but then we get to this place where we start protecting.

This is very important right here, protecting what we perceive that we own.

And when we move from that pureness to protection is when we start

seeing some of the ugly stuff that we see in church world.

business world.

It's ugly, but it sometimes looks different and it doesn't hurt

some of us as much as it does.

And when I say hurt, I don't mean like me personally, it just hurts me to see it.

It hurts me to see some of the stuff that goes on in quote unquote

air quotes here, church world.

So does that help a little bit?

Does that give a little bit of context that we can have some

fun with the conversation?

Yeah, I lo I love that because, Yeah, ownership.

You're speaking of ownership from a lens of if that leads to protecting, this

is mine, it's about me, which is pride.

And protecting sounds a lot like fear and control.

A byproduct of what I can do, what's in my responsibility, and humility

and trust feels more like stewardship.

Yeah.

The semantics are important of if I'm stewarding this, then the outcomes

are not mine to fear because I'm trusting the outcomes with I'll do

my best and God, that's all I can do.

it's stewarding is also focused on the present ownership projects

into the future, which causes anxiety, stewardship focuses on the

present, which, sounds healthier.

And so I, yeah, I'm thinking as you're processing this, as a steward of my

wife, A steward as the parent of my kids, a steward of this gospel of

grace, of which I have the Holy Spirit in me, as a steward of the kingdom, as

a steward of an expression of teaching of the kingdom called true face.

that's a light yoke.

that's a joy today to steward those things.

And that feels a lot more peace and light yoke and less weight of me,

for, feeling like I need to figure it out or else, so yeah, that's an

encouragement to me personally today.

yeah, good.

Because we put so much pressure on ourselves, we got a great example of it,

Jesus, the Pharisees, the hypocrites, those were, and you know what, this

is my biggest, not my biggest, but one of my biggest things that bother me is

that, that I would not want to be grouped into that pharisee hypocrite category

and Robby, unfortunately, I think even though I'm, I'm a believer, call myself

Christian and all that, I believe that often in my life, I probably could have

been put in that category because of the lack of trust, control, things like that.

Yeah,

to transition a little bit, Cuz I love the

conversation though, by the way.

I love this to transition a bit.

You guys, with True Face, you're providing resources and you this, I'm, I hope

I'm not connecting too many dots here.

You tell me, because of the role you had at North Point over

small groups, you mentioned 800.

When you stepped into an organization that already had some intellectual

property, it seems to me like you, one of your roles has been

maybe marrying those two somewhat.

Is that correct?

I think, I think.

Transferability practically systems.

And people read, like people come into true face.

we paint a compelling vision of what Jesus makes possible in relationships

of depth with him and others in order to experience grace, experience, high trust

environments that we're made for, that we long for, and that we ask the question,

yeah, but how, okay, so I read these books, I want that, how do I find it?

I'm the how guy.

And so I was giving them a hard time before I took the job and I was like, Hey.

You need to equip us with tools for us to experience this way of following

Jesus in community that you're talking about in Bose's Cafe, in

the Cure, in parents in this, right?

I'm reading everything you guys are putting out.

Tell us how to do that.

And they said, you can figure that out.

And then fast forward a year or two, I end up being the president.

So I was like, I guess I gotta figure that out now.

Easier said than done.

And That's why we're building tools.

so an example is the nine month j true face journey.

You, if we want to fulfill the great commission and go and make disciples,

for those of us who get grace, love Jesus, we wanna pour our cup into others.

But if we lined up a hundred men and women listening to this from a hundred

different churches who love Jesus, get grace, wanna pour their cup to others and

said, how's your disciple making going?

We would say, terrible cause we don't know what to do and who to do it with.

And so a good tool is not prescriptive.

Check this, learn this.

That stuff drives me crazy.

And that's the way of like, when I see discipleship resources and

it's fill in the blank, learn this.

That's an old framework that more right behavior, less wrong

behavior, learning equals godliness.

That is not true.

And that smells a little bit like religion and the Pharisees to me.

And How to take principles and marry them with best practices is an art.

It's an art and a science.

An art of how we gather with intentionality, with the science

underpinning of great teaching that helps us know what to do.

So for those a hundred people we built, A framework where it's nine

months, once a month for three hours, and this is what you do in between.

This is how you can think about how you meet together for three

hours with a general framework.

And that framework looks more like, here's some good content.

Here are good questions to ask.

Not teach, not fill in the blank, but process in the sake of authentic

community, which is built with intentionality in the early months.

And to make it easier for people to go, oh, From training to

equipping and it's all accessible.

That's an example of an environment and a tool that is conducive, for

people to process and experience these truths at greater depth.

and on a lighter note, we did a true face conversation.

It's eight conversations to take a step deeper in your relationship

with God and one other person because you and I hang out.

We meet at, RV Campground and we have lunch, and we're like, man, I love Tim.

It like, if we were in town, we would be boys, but the no man's land

between our first meeting and us being brothers is wrought with us

having no idea how to get there, how to progress into depth and intimacy.

And so we said, Hey, let's just come up with a conversational framework

so that I can go, Hey, Tim, every Tuesday on the drive home from work at

4 45, you wanna talk, we'll watch this five minute video and then have three

questions that we'll talk about together.

That would be a tool to make it easier to process these

truths in a relational setting.

Yeah.

I tell people this all the time.

One of the reasons that I do this, the podcast is so that I can have.

Uninterrupted focused conversations with people like Robby.

it's because in our normal day-to-day world, we're like, Hey,

how's the weather in Dawsonville?

Oh, the weather's great.

Tell me about Bill Elliot.

Oh, yeah, bill, awesome.

Bill from Dawsonville.

Yeah.

how's RV Life?

Oh, it's awesome.

Yeah.

and it's very light, it's very fluffy.

There's not a lot of depth to it where, I get the mic, I get somebody

like you and Mike and we could dive into ownership versus stewardship

and, have a cool conversation.

I'm gonna, I wanted to be, when I first started reading through the

stuff, and I could tell that it was geared towards group type things.

I had a lot of thoughts come to mind, and I know we're mature here, so we could have

this, we could have this back and forth.

I've been around churches, I've visited North Point, I've gone, when I'm in

Atlanta, usually I'll pop in and go to Passion City with Louis's Church

and I love me a big old megachurch.

I really do.

However, I do think that there's challenges with structure.

I'm an industrial engineer from Georgia Tech, and so structure and

all, I do wonder if we're fighting a battle that's really tough.

You saw 800 groups there and you obviously see some value in these small

groups, in this small group setting.

Tell me, Tim, who's Skepticals like man, are you sure?

Small groups and is that just like another program in a church

or why would we want to go down this process of being in groups?

Is that a fair question?

Oh yeah, that's a good question and I'll point to a principal.

Relationships lead to growth, not groups.

Sola.

We are designed to grow and mature through the context of relationships.

Jesus defines discipleship as, by the way, you love one another and John 1335.

By this, they'll know that you are my disciples.

By the way, you love one another.

Love is a relational dynamic, and so churches, let alone mega churches,

but any church of a hundred and more is not a conducive environment for

relationships which are catalyst for spiritual growth because the

corporate gathering is more conducive for teaching and corporate worship.

So that means the key element when it comes to formation, discipleship is.

What are the environments for relationships that

are catalyst for growth?

Most churches call that small group, life group, cell group, whatever, which

is right, because we're gather all that is, is a consistency and intentionality

in a size that's conducive to be more known and therefore more loved.

So you try, you agree with me at that point, right?

Yeah.

I'm still with you here.

you're moving me in your direction.

All right.

So if that's the case, then that's not the broken piece.

What's broken is that, I.

Most small groups are terrible.

And so we gotta ask the question why.

if this is the right principle driven framework for spiritual formation

growth, then what's happening?

And that's where, that is very difficult because, I got a master,

I'm a licensed professional counselor.

I got a master's in counseling.

We spent two years studying evidence-based practices on what best practices

in a group therapy session lead to growth and change and what don't.

And then we get into a small group, which is even more important,

similar principles of gathering together for the sake of change, but

in regards to spiritual formation.

And we just go, oh, here's a, hey, anybody wanna lead?

Here's a T-shirt.

Here's a 60 minute PowerPoint on how to have a hard conversation.

Go for it.

That drives me crazy and no wonder groups are terrible cuz we don't know

principles that of best practices of the art of facilitation to lead a good group.

And so that's where one of the first things I did at True Face is write a

book, four small group leaders, which you read called The Cure for Groups.

Those are the principles that differentiate great

leaders from lame leaders.

And that is only 25% of the equation of a small group being transformational.

60% is the health of the leader.

His or her theology and identity.

So 60% of whether a group is great is connected to the health of the leader.

That's not in the cure for groups, cuz that takes a lifetime of growth.

And I would recommend the cure to read that for the core of

who you are, how you see God.

Now once you have a right theology identity to equip somebody with the

best practices is I would say 25% of the equation of whether a group sucks or not.

And so the five, so the cure for groups unpacks those five

principles that I saw great leaders do differently than lame leaders.

And the last 15% is just chemistry and stuff.

You can't control anyways into whether a group is successful or not.

So don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

let's develop a depth of discipleship, like through the

true face journey, reading the cure to how we see God ourself.

Then let's step into leading a group to, which is a right environment to grow,

connect relationally and grow spiritually.

But let's think best practices.

Go read the cure for groups, use embark to launch a group.

That kind of stuff.

that's why we can't miss out on groups cuz the principals

write the application's off.

I do think this is one thing that I am willing to admit, no,

actually this is very obvious division I.

Lack of relationship, lack of interaction, lack of intentionality, lack of

quiet time, all those type things.

I do believe they're a tool of the enemy.

I think we make it real easy on the enemy to do that.

And so this is going against the grain to have relationships with people.

But, and I do wanna say, I read the book cover to cover.

I read The Cure, like I said earlier, I'll hold it up here for those.

And I've got dog ears, some highlights.

And I do agree with you.

I guess what I really want is some of these tools because Robby, I've

been involved with these where, and you're gonna identify why I've got a,

maybe a little bit of a sour attitude.

We're gonna do life together.

We're gonna watch some ball games.

We're gonna, we're gonna hang out, we're gonna do things.

this is a flaw of mine, probably.

I don't hang out.

Yep.

I don't, I'm I bet you don't either.

I bet it, I bet.

It's Hey Robby, let's just let's you and I, let's just play a game, man.

Let's do a board game together, man.

That'd be like a life group, right?

Maybe.

But maybe my wife would love it.

maybe, I would and I'd be going bonkers.

I'd be going, man, hey Robby, let's go to the other room here and

let's strategize on something, man.

Let's talk about, so I loved the tools.

Gimme a couple of things.

Overseeing all those 800 that you did at North Point.

We're getting close to having to land this plane.

By the way.

Gimme a couple of things that you learn from that experience that I know that,

I know a lot of this is the process and all that we see in the book, but you

got more reps than the average person.

some of us have been in two or three small groups, so we've got.

Whatever, give a couple of big picture as we kinda start wrapping up and then

we'll start telling people how they can connect and get some of your stuff.

I'll give you two things.

The first is, Nothing matter.

what is the quality and quantity of the leaders to lead?

And are you willing to invest deeply in relationally, in developing future

and potential leaders in your church?

Go to truefacejourney.com.

That's all free.

It's a framework I've seen at transformational, and I'm leading a group

every year the rest of my life, and I've led eight years worth of these groups.

My wife and I are invested in four couples in their twenties right now,

me once a month, three hours that, that they will lead differently, as a result

of that nine month leader development pipeline called the True Face Journey.

This, so yeah, focus on the quality of the leader is the one thing.

The second thing for specifically, I'll just tailor off of what you just said

in regards to expectations, five core components of a transformational group.

The first one is picking the destination, determining the destination of your group.

All of us get into a small group with differing expectations of.

Relationally and spiritually of what we hope to get out of this.

We're given 60, 90 minutes a week.

We better verbalize and clarify why we're meeting, cuz you and I are not better or

worse than our wives who would want to just get together and play board games.

However, the difference in frustration and disappointment is the difference

between expectations and reality.

So a best practice of leadership is early in a group, determine your destination.

Have everybody in the group verbalize your expectations, what

your, what a win would look like after two years of weekly meeting.

Because I assure you, if you don't get a weigh in, in order to buy in, and

if you can't verbalize expectations to have agreement as to why you're meeting.

There's gonna be excuses not to show up and you're gonna be disappointed

because the gap between your expectations and reality is too big to shrink it.

Great leaders, I saw everybody put on the table, what are your relational

and spiritual expectations for why you're gonna spend 60 minutes a week?

And if you and I are in a group and we go, man, we wanna process real stuff

every week and and someone else is nah, I'm not looking for that's okay.

either don't.

Get into it shift, find a middle way a leader can facilitate through that.

but saying it bring it to the light will make everybody move in towards

each other around aligned destination.

So that's a best practice just cuz you brought it up that's different.

That's a principle of leadership, of an art, of leadership, not a,

Hey, here's how to be a great small group leader in three easy steps.

and that's why we wrote the book to, and you read it last night,

cuz it, no one wants to read a book about being a small group leader.

So we made it as short, practical, and readable as possible.

That was our hope.

Here's the, here's a really good thing about it that I think.

Should fit for anyone leading anything.

And that is, there's some great tools in it.

I think there's some great questions.

In fact, partially what I highlighted the most were just some of the questions.

And the reason why I think that's important, Robby, is the reason why

we're even having to do this, and what I'll say is a little more of a formal

structure is that we, I'm talking about we, society, culture, whatever, we're

really bad at having conversations.

We're really bad at having relationships more than surface

light, fluffy type stuff.

And I do think that we need tools for it because you can't trust

someone if you don't know them.

and I think that's probably the underlying message that I've heard in

this entire conversation going back to when I even asked you for, to do the

intro is you mentioned the word trust is that you can't trust if you don't know.

And the reason that I like the book, and I like the process, is that it

builds trust in settings that, is it a neighborhood, is it a church setting?

I don't know that I really care.

I don't know if y'all do or not.

To me, it's virtual if it's all around the world.

But if it's b building more trust, then we've got a more mature people.

And with mature people, then good things happen.

So that's my little preaching on that.

who is this really for?

I don't know if I just spoiled that for you, but who is this really for?

It is for a small group leader.

Okay, so specifically in a church setting or.

Any type environment.

There's principles of.

Leadership, a team leadership and a that you will pick up.

There are correlations between leadership, team leading at work, and

small group leader that are real similar.

the cure is for anybody.

The cure is the teaching of theology identity.

The cure for groups is for a small group leader.

And in Embark is the study guide for an entire small group to go through

and lay a foundation with those five components like determining

your destination and verbalizing expectations, that kind of thing.

sure.

All right, Robby, we, you may have mentioned it just a second ago.

We'll include things down in the notes, but where do you want to send somebody

that wants more info, wants to check things out, either Robby or True Face?

where do they need to go?

Just say it verbally here so that people know

You can listen to the True Face Podcast or go to

trueface.org are the best two places.

Nice.

Yeah, A power.

Listened to about five or six episodes yesterday.

Loved him.

We didn't even get to that.

Didn't even get to discuss that.

what a great conversation.

I've enjoyed this and, I almost feel like we need to do like

a version two, version three.

Maybe we need a group.

I don't know.

Maybe we need to walk through a process here.

Robby.

Hey Robby.

we're seek, go create three words that, we use to describe some things we're doing.

I'm gonna let you choose one of those words that just resonates, it jumps

out at you more than the other two.

And why, as my final question before I wrap up here.

I love that question.

What resonates right now is create, we don't think we're enough.

Have what it takes to lead, invest in others, one-on-one, one on a few,

different levels of depth, intentionality.

We're all looking for somebody with the courage to pursue us relationally.

Be the one with courage to pursue somebody in your life.

And we got plenty of tools to make that easier and more intentional,

but go pursue somebody cuz it takes courage and vulnerability and we're all

waiting for somebody to do that for us.

Nice.

Very good.

Robby Angle, thank you for joining us here at Seek Go Create.

If you've been listening in, I'm gonna encourage you to do a few things.

You're on a podcast right now, most likely maybe on YouTube.

Go jump over to, the True Face Podcast.

Listen in there cuz if you're listening here, I believe you'll enjoy that one.

Also, I think there'll be good complimentary podcast.

if you're on YouTube, I'm sure that they've got some resources

there too that you could check out.

read the book.

I think if you're a leader.

The book that I read, the Cure for Groups is a valuable tool and

especially if you're going to be associating or doing some things

with groups, get a get ahold of that.

Something that I love to ask, and I do believe this conversation has had that

power, is share this episode with people.

Just take a screenshot, share it.

If you're on social media or something like that, share it.

If you're watching one of the clips, share it.

I think people will get a lot of value from just listening in.

Thanks for listening in.

I appreciate you.

What a great conversation this has been.

We have new episodes every Monday.

Until next time, continue being all that you were created to be.