**** Producer's Note: The following is a general transcript of LCC Connect's weekly radio program. Contents include but may not be limited to podcasts, program imaging, announcements, and PSAs. More detailed and accurate transcripts of the podcast episodes featured in this broadcast can be found at LCCconnect.com or by following the links provided in the show notes of this episode. ****

Welcome to B2B boots to books, the show where we explore the journeys of veterans and military connected students as they navigate their paths from service to the classroom and beyond. I'm Dustin Abrego.

And I'm Rebecca Allen, your hosts. Each week, we'll dive into powerful stories of resilience, determination, and success.

Whether you're a veteran yourself, a military family member, or simply inspired by the strength of those who serve, you're in the right place.

Let's turn the page and start this incredible journey together.

All right, welcome back to another episode of B2B. I'm Dustin Abrego.

And I'm Rebecca Allen.

This week we are joined by Andrew Cosgrove.

Andrew, we work together. What do you do here at lcc?

Yes, we do work together, Dustin. So I'm the director of our center of Veteran Family Support for lcc.

So we know what you do because we work with you quite a bit. For the people listening in or people that don't even go to lcc, what does that mean? Like, what's the function, the role?

Well, my function is to really oversee the processes for our students who want to use GI Bill benefits and other tuition assistance programs through the military and the va. Rebecca is our VA coordinator, so I oversee her work basically to make sure that the school gets paid and the students get paid what they're owed for going to classes. I mean, there's a lot more to it. There's a lot more big picture stuff that I handle, but the main focus is the students and making sure that they're set and good to go and don't have a lot of hassle, so they don't have to worry about stuff as they transition out of the military into a civilian life and higher ed.

So how did you get into this, and how do you view this as being important? Because this is definitely career level stuff, right? That you enjoy doing this. You went to school and had this experience and stuff. But how did you get into this? And then why is this important?

Well, prior to lcc, I worked for esgr, Employer Support of the Garden Reserve, which was the employment side of things for our Guard members. Really, I got into it because I was told the job was open, and I applied. And I thought, you know, I could take what I've learned from working with esgr, along with my past experiences and in management stuff like that, and applying it to this position, plus my own personal experience of using GI Bill benefits, serving in the military, and wanting to try to help ensure that people who were in the same Boat as me were taken care of, and that's what I continue to do. I think Rebecca's on the same page with that as well. Same goes for you. So that's. You know, I kind of just fell into it. It wasn't really anything that I was seeking out. I certainly didn't go to school to be the director of a veteran services department at a community college, but it seemed to work out. It's been 10 years now, so.

Wow. Okay.

Yeah.

You said that you used benefits. Where did you do that at, and what did that look like for you?

So I used it at two schools. I used it at Michigan State, obtained my bachelor's degree there, and then I had a little time left. I ended up going back to school because I. I really wanted to go into a completely different career field. So I went back to school and was going for another bachelor's degree and then ended up getting this job at LCC and decided I probably didn't need another bachelor's degree at this point. So I switched into just an associate's program at Embry Riddle University and finished that out a few months after I started here, so.

And education and military service are something that's ingrained in your family. Right. You. You've shared with me, and I don't recall, like, how far back in, like, military service for your family is. Big deal. Like, I. I don't know. I feel like that's really cool and important, and not many people can talk about that.

Yeah, I mean, I. I think a lot of people have lineage when it comes to military service. They just don't realize it.

Sure.

Because they haven't done the research. I've done the research. My family has done the research, and we can trace it back to the Revolutionary War. I had an ancestor who fought with Custer in the Civil War, and then every war since then, so. Definitely goes back a long ways. My dad was career military. That's why I joined the military. Thought my military career would be a lot longer than it was, but due to some medical issues, I ended up getting out instead, so. Which worked out, because here I am.

Yeah.

Was that something that you feel pushed you into the direction that you're in now, then, you know, following into esgr, following here along the vet services line?

Yeah, I think so. Well, I know it did. And I remember a specific conversation that I had with my dad at one point before I ended up with esgr. I was working at another job with a contracted company with gm, and I just. I wanted to get out of it. Because it was too much. It was every day of the week, three shifts. So I remember having a conversation with him about what can I do, what should I look for? And he was the one who suggested maybe you should look for something that you can help veterans, whatever that may be. And then within a couple weeks, the job with ESGR posted. And I applied for that and got that. And that's what started it again. That was the employment side, making sure people didn't lose their jobs, if they went on deployment, they'd come back and keep their same position, talking with companies, making sure they understood the law, stuff like that. And then obviously transitioning into this role on the education side, which I, you know, the employment side, obviously it's important. People need jobs, they need to keep their jobs. But the education side of things I value more because without the education, you're not going to get those jobs that you want. I mean, that's really what we're all about here.

When you say jobs that you want, are you talking about the financial aspect though? What interests you? Aspect? Because I mean, in all the recordings I'm pro education. Right. In first gen and all that stuff means a lot. And we all work here. Right. So that also means a lot. But when you're saying that for people that are maybe thinking about going to school, what do you think that means to them? Or the conversations we've had with vets, that is like realizing that the education can really be the gateway, the lever that like gets you into the big things that you want. Yeah, yeah.

You know, I think it depends on the person. I think there's a lot of different reasons, financial reasons, obviously.

Sure.

You know, you look at the data, comparing people with degrees, people without degrees, I mean, obviously people with degrees make more money. That's just the way it goes. What I think people forget though is that you don't necessarily need that degree, you just need the credential, whatever that may be. When I was in school, and I think we're all close enough in age. I know I'm a little bit older than you, but we're all close enough in age. Where, you know, the mindset was you graduate high school, you go get a bachelor's degree.

Yes.

You go to a four year university, you, you go get a job doing whatever. Well, that doesn't have to be the case anymore. And I think a lot of people don't realize that. So obviously financial reasons are a big one. We've had conversations about getting into a job that you're passionate about versus A job that pays for your passions. So I think that's a difference for a lot of people as well. If you're lucky enough to get into a job that you're passionate about and it pays you really good money to do it, then thumbs up to win the lottery.

Yeah.

Right. But in a lot of cases that doesn't happen. It's either you're passionate about something and you might not be making great money doing it, or you're in a job making good money and, and you can afford to do what you want after work.

So when you mean credential, I know what you mean. Right. Because we work here for people that don't know that. It's not like you go to the DMV and you get the credential and then you make more job. Right. Are you saying like associates for bachelor's? For us and how we were raised, I totally agree. It's. You're going to get a four year because then job.

Yep.

While that can be the case to get in the door for hr, that's not always the case. So when you say credential for people at home to understand it's, I need stuff outside of military that I have probably to get the job that I want.

Yeah.

I think there are people, veterans and current service members that may think that I served in the military. So that's going to get me in the door somewhere. I don't really need anything else. You know, I did my four years, six years, eight, 10, whatever. In some cases, sure, yeah, that works. But it depends on what you did in the military. And I'm not going to beat up any mos or, you know, but like mine, for example, I was a, a fire support specialist for artillery. Well, that's, I mean, what's that going to do? I had a secret clearance. It wasn't top secret. I was low man on the totem pole for a long time. So you know, that's not really going to get me into the door. So you have to couple that with some sort of credential, whether it's a degree or certificate or a combination associates, bachelor's, master's, doctorate, and then the many different types of certifications that are out there. So what I think people forget about is like I was saying earlier, you don't necessarily need to have that degree as long as you have some sort of credential that can get you into the door with what you want to do. You know, I use a welding certificate as an example all the time when I talk to people like you, you want to be a welder? Okay, great. Come get your certificate. You could even get an associate's degree in welding if you want, and take that on and maybe you end up managing a welding operation or something. But then there's the other route of obtaining that degree and then moving on to a bachelor's program and then moving on to a master's program. I'll use the example of the young guy that came in the other day that you brought in, Dustin. And the first thing, or one of the first things I asked him was, what's your goal? What do you want to do? Right. And he wanted to go into some sort of federal law enforcement, FBI, CIA, whatever. And we gave him step by step, you know, laid it out for him, what he should do to get to that level. And I can also use my personal experience because that was something that I looked into when he was in school. Yeah. And I talked to people from those agencies, organizations, and they essentially laid it out for me. Hey, if you, if you want to have a chance at getting in, this is what you need. And in that case, it's bachelor's, master's, along with military service and other experience to go along with it. But that's, you know, when he came into our office or my office, he didn't, he didn't understand any of that. Certainly there's other avenues that you could probably take, but with the limited military experience that he has, because you just

graduated high school not too long ago, he's in the Guard, You've done a really good job of like balancing, I think of like, we're not saying military service isn't worthwhile. Both of you are a testament to that. Right. But depending on what you want to do, it has to be additive. How can you do both because what you want to do and jumping right in from military, at least from what you're telling me, or maybe you would know this as well, working with people trying to get for jobs and stuff, you're not going to likely go straight from the military, straight to the FBI or something else, unless you're doing similar type work that's at a much higher level that depending on what the position is like trying to even get to, that can be pretty hard in this, in this one scenario. Right. We're not discounting any of those things, but.

Right. I mean, certainly, I think any type of military service is huge, for sure. But again, to get to the level that some people want to get to, you have to have a focus on education as well, because you're not just going to walk into the door at some agency or whatever and, and get offered a position. Unless, you know, you did 20, 25 years in the military and you were E8 with top secret clearance and worked with national intelligence stuff. I mean, okay, yeah, maybe you'll be, you'll be waved through and given a position, but the folks that we typically work with are veterans who did their

four years infantry, mp. Some of the stuff, I'm just thinking of former students or students that we have right now that work for us and stuff.

Yeah, I mean, I say four years, really. You know, I think the majority of what we work with is people who did less than 10.

Yeah.

And with less than 10 years of service, you know, the, the doors aren't open very wide for you to walk through, so you need to have the credential, which, you know, we work for lcc. So obviously I'm going to plug lcc. I mean, there's a lot of different programs that are offered that can open those doors for you, whatever you want to do.

Your example of welding earlier, I think about someone that does have, I don't know the difference clearance levels. You guys know those things. But like, you have a certain clearance level and you want to do welding, you probably would have a better shot than someone that doesn't have military stuff and doesn't have that clearance that wants to go work in a shipyard for government contract doing building a sub, because those people probably have to get clearances to even then go be a welder there. Right. Like, so having that combo of those things can be very powerful.

Yeah.

Bringing that up is actually, it's a little coincidental. I have a friend who was in a very similar situation, has a clearance because of their role currently in the Guard, but they also have civilian experience in welding.

Oh, wow.

And because of their civilian experience and because of the clearance that they have, they were actually able to get into a nuclear field for that.

Oh, wow.

So, yeah, being able to say, you know, hey, yep, I went to school, I. I studied welding, I got the certificates, and then I continued on from there. I joined the Guard, was able to use that experience within the Guard, ended up getting a clearance. And now on the civilian side, they do have a very good job. So being able to pair those two is really huge for some people.

And I was just thinking about how you could do then work for military contract, but you'll need that for Department of Energy. You would need some type of clearance because they're not just going to be come Work on this power plant that whatever, you know, like, they would want you to have all that stuff that makes so much sense.

Wow. Yeah. I think the other thing that really sticks out to me and I know we kind of touched on it, the fact that again, there are so many opportunities out there that people don't realize that can pay a very nice wage and can provide exciting work for people. Again, it's not the four year degree. Go sit in an office somewhere. Even though that's what I do. But you can be a welder, you can be a lineman, you can be a nurse, you can get into H vac, you can be a airplane mechanic. Like, there's just all sorts of stuff out there. And usually if we get somebody who comes in and they just don't really know what they want to do or come in saying, I want to do history or I just want to do general stuff and then transfer to Michigan State, like, okay, that's great if that's really what you want to do.

But that's not going to get you job.

Here's all these other opportunities. I, I don't know if you've, if you've ever thought about any of this stuff, but I want to make sure that we lay them out for you. And sometimes it'll make a difference and they'll say, oh, I didn't know that I could do that. You know, maybe I should look into that. You know, and then there's the other aspect. The thought that whatever people do in the military, that's what they want to do in civilian life.

Yeah.

Like, you know, you're, you're a truck mechanic in the army. So. Okay, yeah, you should go into our auto maintenance program. Like, no, I don't want to do that. I got to do that one week in a month or whatever. If I'm in the guard or reserve or I just spent four years working in the motor pool, I don't want to do that stuff anymore. So, you know, having open eyes to realize that whatever people did in the military doesn't mean that that's what they want to do in the civilian world. Sometimes it is.

I feel like it's very hot or cold when I'm like, well, what'd you do? And they're like, I hate that, or I would do more of that. It's never maybe it's always yes or no.

I feel like, yeah, I think it's a. If they're in a more specialized occupation in the military. Yeah. Along with, you know, does it, does it pay in this world. And is there any way that my education can be fast tracked if I stay on the same. In the same lane that I was in in the military? We do have a couple programs that, that offer that not a. Those are out there. So to kind of circle back. And I thought about this when I worked for esgr because we, we did partner with. With some education stuff as well. You know, in a lot of cases, you probably won't be able to do what you want to do without having some sort of education. You know, of course there's cases where there's a family business and that's what you end up doing. You don't need school because you were taught the business or whatever. And, you know, some other, like, you could even talk about on the job stuff where it's not really, you're not going to school for anything or you're learning on the job, you know, but in a lot of cases, you have to have that education to get to the level that you want to get to, whatever that may be. It could just be a certificate and that's it. You know, that's what our linemen do. Yeah, it's a certificate program. And then they go off and they're making 40 bucks an hour.

Well, and I'm wondering how many of our. I don't want to say older, our more mature students who are coming in, especially if. If they're using like the Chapter 31, the VR&E program where they have a disability already. How many of them were in a similar situation where they thought, you know what? I'm just going to either make the military my career or once I get out, whatever I did in the military is what I'm planning on doing. And now they are finding themselves in a position where they physically can't do the job anymore. And now they're able to use that benefit to come in. But it's a determination of what do I actually want to do with my life now? What can I study that's going to give me the quality of life that I'm still looking for?

Right.

And I think the quality of life is huge because older is maybe not just they're physically broken. I'm not saying that, but like, also, like the life cycle, like, you want to have a family and like, have time to mow your grass because you have a house and stuff. If you have to pull in like 60 to 90 hours a week or you're not gonna have time to do that, or like, whoever's your partner is not gonna be probably really understanding if you're doing that stuff and if you want those things. And I think maybe it's also the life cycle thing, not just the physicality of the work possibly, but can't remember

if you were there, but we, we had a student or potential student come in a couple weeks ago. We had, or I had a similar conversation with him about that. Do you want to do this hands on work where you're going to be working 50, 60 plus hours a week, or do you want to take this path and get into more of a 9 to 5 job and not have to worry about working weekends and stuff like that? I can't remember what programs we were talking about, but it was that conversation when he came in, his mindset was, this is what I want to do. I want to get started, you know, with the hands on, the labor intensive career path. And then that five minute conversation got him thinking, well, okay, maybe I don't want to do that because I think he has a young son and you know, it's going to take time away from your family. And I had that type of job, not so much the labor piece, but the piece that takes up all your time. And it was terrible.

And why was it terrible?

Because it took up all my time.

Because you weren't doing what you wanted to do instead.

Right?

Yeah.

You know, I was getting woken up at 3 o' clock in the morning to go into a plant to check on a broken pipe or something like that, you know, And I had three shifts and it was just constant, you know, working 60 plus hours a week. And I did that for three years, little over three years. It doesn't sound like a big deal.

That wears on you, man.

It wears on you. And if you add in, you know, the intense labor aspect of some of these jobs, it can make it much worse and you get burned out really quick and your, your body can start breaking down. So that's a good point that you bring up, especially with the older vets that come in, even though they seem to get younger every year to me, you know, how much time are you going to have before you might start having those issues of, you know, your back hurts, your knees hurt, you know, stuff like that, you know, the younger guys. Yeah, okay, sure, I could see you getting into that. But that's why I have a lot of conversations with people about, you know, I'll go back to the welding thing. Okay, so you want to be a welder, great. You get your certificate, you can make good money doing that. But maybe you should come Back and get a business degree.

Yeah.

Or go into something like organizational leadership or something like that. So at some point you're not the guy on the line making, you know, doing the welds, you're the guy up on the, in the booth or whatever, walking the floor, managing everything that's going on so you can have a little bit easier time compared to.

And making more money too, probably.

Yeah.

Supervision aspect, right?

Yeah, I've had that conversation very recently with a new student over 25, so qualifies for reconnect. And they said, you know, yes, I do. I think it was welding actually. Yes, I do want to get into this. I know that this is something that I want to pursue. So we had the conversation of, well, ultimately, what do you want to do with that? Do you want to be on the line all the time or do you want to be running the shop at some point? So we were able to have the conversation of, hey, let's look at what other options there are. Let's maybe hang on to those benefits until you're ready and you want to turn around and maybe you want to get a degree in business as well. I think having those conversations are really important. We go to first formation and so we're talking to those fresh soldiers, you know, they're just out of ait, they're just getting started in their guard career. And we've had the conversations of what do you want to do? And I think I want to do this, I want to do that. I'm not really sure what I want to do yet. So I think having the conversations to get them thinking about it early. So then we're not having conversations with 25, 30, 35 year old veterans who have never had to go to school before, have never had to consider, you know, what training or education they now need to pursue.

Right.

And you bring up the first formations. And I've even talked to people at those events who are already in school and I'll ask them what they're doing and they tell me and I'll just say, why, oh my gosh, why are you doing that? And it's, you know, I'd say It's probably about 50, 50 of them saying, why? I don't know, someone told me I

needed to go to school or I want to be an officer and I know that I need a degree and I just picked one.

It's like, well, if, if you're gonna do it, if you're gonna use these programs to help you pay for it, then why don't you do something that you might actually enjoy, and that's a. That's a big piece for me. It's something that I already. I talked to my kids about. My two older ones. Henry, the little one, he doesn't care yet. But the two older ones, I mean, that's. That's a conversation that I've already started, is if you can get into something that you're actually passionate about, sometimes the money doesn't matter.

Sure.

And sometimes the money doesn't matter until it does matter, and then maybe you need to shift. But I've had friends and family members who went to school and came out with the degree and was like, what am I going to do?

I know a lot of realtors. I think I mentioned that I'm not dunking on realtors. It's not that. It's just they go, well, I have a degree, but I don't want to do this at all.

Right. I'll put myself in that boat for a while. Like, you know, some of the positions I've had. No, I didn't really. I didn't want to do that. But I do think it's a hard thing to get people to realize or understand or make that decision. Especially if you're young, you know, you're 20 years old, 19, you know, it's hard to say, I want to do this for the rest of my life. What are you passionate about now? Once you get into that, and if you need to refocus on something else later on, then do it. But I just. I hate seeing people go through the process, go through school, and then they're two semesters in or something, and they come to us and say, I don't really want to do this anymore. And I did that when I was at Michigan State. I changed a few times, and I still wish I would have gone into something else. But, I mean, for us, it was kind of like a degree is a degree. I mean, people don't really care what you have it in as long as you have it, which is still prevalent today in some cases, for sure.

I feel like coming from a case management background, I feel like that is a common theme among veterans who are, you know, 25 plus, 30 plus, where we've done our time. We thought maybe we knew what we wanted to do, and we do get into the real world, I guess, and we're not quite sure where we want to go. You had that experience? I had that experience. My husband has had that experience. And I have other veteran friends who have bounced from job to job because it wasn't a passion and finally ended up settling on something that. Yeah, that's not paying the bills the way that the previous job was, but the previous job was burning us out. So finding a passion. And it's not a bad thing to bounce around sometimes until you find what actually is the right fit for you, Right?

Definitely. Yeah.

And I know that there's a lot of stigma of coming out of the military, and you need to be able to settle in and find your niche and, you know, provide for yourself, provide for your family. But sometimes bouncing around really isn't a bad thing because it does help you find where you need to be.

Yeah, I see a lot of people that just. They might be making the bills pay, like you're saying, and doing the job, but they're just unhappy, busy. Idleness is what I've heard where they're like. They're A lot of energy is being used and they're doing things, but it's not in any certain direction, I think, because they feel like they have to. They don't want to let people. People down. They want to make sure that. Well, my friends that are civilian, they have this house or this, like. I don't know, I feel like there's. Everyone always does that comparison of what people your age are doing and then. But also like you said about being happy with it. And the example I've always used is if you see someone in line at Meijer and they get all mad, do you think they had a really good career? Do you think they're really happy in their job and their day to day? And maybe how much money, like, it can be, how much money you're making that can add to it. Right. But do you think they had, like, a really good day? I'm gonna probably say, not making assumptions. I don't know that. But I don't think people view that as an okay answer.

Yeah.

And I don't know why. Because it's not utilitarian enough? I. I don't know.

I think there is. Why? I mean, I.

It's very theoretical. What is that? Sorry.

I think there's a lot of different answers that you could give for it. But I do think that there's a stigma behind it. You know, you're like Rebecca said, you're supposed to settle down. You're supposed to have a family. You're supposed to do these things and, you know, provide and make sure your family's safe, all that stuff.

And it's some of the people that I know that are Doing that great. On paper, they're not happy.

Yeah.

And, like, I'm not saying you need to have your happiness above your family, but, like, collectively, like, they don't seem thrilled with what's going on.

Yeah.

They have the vacation and stuff, but they're, like, yelling at each other the whole time, and I'm like, yikes, which one are you giving up? And it does. I feel like it doesn't have to be an either or. It can be a both. And I do feel like to circle back, because I probably need to wrap up here soon. Is going back to what you were saying is like having the credential paired with the experience, I think unlocks a lot of things that you don't know about that can provide. Well, yeah, you used to do this in service, and you don't want to do that anymore. Cool. There's all this other stuff that you have no idea because you've never done it before.

Right. And I think the other key is asking questions, you know, when we're talking about education, not focusing on a particular school. Like, I'm. I'm. Yes, I have to go there. Yes. Like, you don't have to go there. And I'll. You know, we use Michigan State as an example all the time. Great school. I went there. It's right down the street. You know, the majority of the students that come in who want to end up transferring to a school, it's Michigan State. It's like, well, okay, that's great. If that's what you want to do, we can hook you up with. With Patrick at the veterans center over there.

Were you hired because you went to msu? Were you hired that you went to Central? I went to.

No. In fact, I. I didn't even want to go there to begin with. I was going to go to Grand Valley, you know, showing people the options. Yes. Just because that school is 10 minutes down the road and you like that.

You.

Right.

Doesn't even. Doesn't mean that you have to go there, you know? And, you know, we've talked to a lot of students about Central lately because of their tuition discount and the opportunities that they provide as far as programming, specifically online stuff. And, you know, most of the time when we bring that up, the eyes open up wide and they're like, oh, I had no idea.

Yeah.

It's like, yeah, so education is important. I think that you need to have some sort of education.

Yes.

The data will show that looking at your different options and not just focusing on one school, you know, and we even Tell people when, periodically, when they come meet with us. You know, maybe LCC isn't the right fit for you. Maybe you should just go to Michigan State or maybe you should just go to Central or, you know, go talk to the folks at Macomb Community College because they have this program that might fit well with you. Our goal is to make sure that people know their options and we give them guidance to hopefully make the right choice that's for them. Hopefully. That choice is lcc, obviously, but whatever that may be. Again, I think a lot of people end up laser focused on a particular school or a particular program instead of knowing what their options are, asking questions, going to meet with people. You know, just because you go meet with somebody at an instant institution doesn't mean you have to go there. You just go ask questions and see if it's a right fit. It's like, you know, recruiting for sports teams. They're visiting schools to see if it's the right fit. So you should do that as well if it's solely for education.

Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Andrew. Really, really appreciate it. Make sure to check out our website. What is it? Lcc?

Lcc. Edu? Backslash Veterans. Yeah, I don't think that's changed. So the, the name changed last year, but the, the link hasn't. So yeah, check it out. There's information on there, all of our contact info if people are interested in talking about school benefits, whatever.

Awesome. Thank you so much.

Yeah, thank you.

You've been listening to B2B boots to books.

Thank you for joining us on this journey through the inspiring stories of veterans and military connected students.

If you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review and share it with your community.

We'd love to hear from you, so connect with us on social media or take a listen to previous episodes@lccconnect.com or your first favorite streaming platform.

Remember, every story is a step forward

and together we can build a bridge from boots to books.

Until next time, stay strong and keep

moving forward,

Examining the issues and topics that affect our lives from the local level to the world stage. Listen to the programs of LCC Connect anytime@lccconnect.org

LCC Connect Voices Vibes Vision

Lansing Community College Performing Arts presents 1984 by George Orwell Adapted for the stage by Nick Hearn Winston Smith has been imprisoned for committing thought crimes against Big Brother.

As part of his RE education, he

is forced to relive key moments from his past, reenacting his mistakes alongside other thought criminals. So that all may learn from his failure, especially his greatest crime of all, falling in love with Julia. George Orwell's 1984 remains a powerful and chilling vision of life under totalitarianism, set against a world of surveillance, control and fear. Featured in LCC's Dart Auditorium April 10th through the 12th and April 17th and 18th. All performances are free to attend. Visit LCC.edushowinfo for showtime details.

Hi, I'm Lisa Alexander and I host

a show called who's that Star On LCC Connect.

This show is all about an inside look at the LCC community where you get a chance to meet our faculty and staff plus learn about their passion projects at work and at home. You can catch who's that Star here

on LCC Connect or listen anytime@lccconnect.org hey parents.

Finding it hard to communicate with kids

in today's world of ever changing slang?

Hi son.

Excuse me.

Introducing the Communicizer. Just strap non toxic communicizer to your mouth and go from boring old man speak.

Oh you know I'm here if you

want to talk to 100% off the chain.

Text me whenever yo.

It's that easy.

Thanks to Communicizer I'm relevant to my kids again.

I mean I'll fly boo.

And now when you buy communicizer you get the autotune attachment free.

Sounds so hip hop your kids will

want to talk to you for hours.

I used to have to walk three

miles uphill to school every morning.

Shortay I love you dad. I love you too son.

Communicizer is not available in stores because it doesn't exist. But that's okay. You don't have to be perfect to

be a perfect parent.

Because kids in foster care don't need perfection.

They need you.

For more information on how you can

adopt, go to adoptuskids.org A public service

announcement from the U.S. department of Health and Human Services adopt U.S. kids in the Ad Council

on Wednesday, March 8th on 18th, Lansing Community College presents the

Job and Internship Fair at LCC's Downtown Campus. This event will bring employers recruiting for full time, part time and internship opportunities and is open to the general public. To RSVP or find out more details,

visit LCC.edu and search job fair LCC Connect Voices vibes Vision

welcome to a Psycho Delicious conversation on mental health issues and trends from two local mental health professionals in the Greater Lansing area. I'm Michael Stratton, lmsw.

And I'm Morgan Bowen, dnp, PMH and P. And we're here to provide you with a deep dive into the human experience of consciousness and beyond. Our aim is to be educational and entertaining. So just kick back and open your ears and your minds.

Good morning or good afternoon or good evening or good night, wherever you are. I'm Michael Stratton. I'm Michael Stratton.

And I'm Morgan Bowen.

I'm the one that didn't press the button in the beginning.

You're the guy. Dalian is the guy.

I'm learning how to do my job.

He's doing it. He's doing.

How long have you done this job?

This one particularly, I guess since 2020. But I mean, you know, I've been here at WLNZ since 99. We were just kind of talking a little bit about the old days.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Upstairs.

Back when we were in a different.

Used to be in student. We were student services back then.

Yeah. Second floor. Were you. You were never up there?

I was not. When I started here, we were definitely in the TLC building, the Tender Loving Care Building, otherwise known as the Technology and Learning Center.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Well, so should we do the show?

We should.

I think we should. And, and, and Morgan's gonna start us off.

I am.

So I, I set him up. I said you picked the topic and

you did, and I appreciate that. So today we're going to talk about media and mental health. That's kind of the general topic. And this will be a two part episode. So we'll introduce the ideas and then treatment related things in the next episode.

Cool.

So we'll start. I was thinking maybe we should talk about our own media consumption. So I guess the reason that I chose this topic is it comes up a lot when I'm working with individuals and their patterns of media consumption and how that is part of their life as well as perhaps part of what's going on with distress, anxiety, depression. So it's a pretty big deal these days.

Yeah, I would agree with that. People talk about how much news to watch, how overwhelmed they feel by the news. The news has been. Well, you look at what's been. Here are the headlines for this week. Marines go to LA to quell demonstrations against ICE agents. There's a war that's breaking out between Israel and Iraq. Trump.

Iran.

Trump, yeah. Iran. Iran. Yeah, yeah, we want to get that right. And God, what else? I mean, there's like, you know, the Supreme Court weighs in on something. I mean, there's something every single.

There is and there's. There's a lot. And so what do you pay attention to. Do you pay attention to any of it? Do you just kind of turn it off? Do you spend all of your time interfacing with media in some sort of way? What is the balance in your life? And this is an actual question, Michael,

what is the balance?

Well, I'll tell you what.

So the way I used to consume media in my younger days is that we got two newspapers. We got a morning paper and an afternoon paper. And I would sit down with the paper in the morning and I'd read the paper. And maybe at night, maybe I'd watch a half hour news program because that's all there was. And after the Iran hostage thing, that's when Ted couple, he used to do a late night kind of review of. This is, you know, it's day 14 of the hostage. And that was the beginning of like a news cycle that went into the evening and then all of a sudden there was cnn. And so it was on, you know, all the time. But I didn't pay much attention to it.

But that's interesting to reflect on the history of that.

Yeah. So Watergate newspapers went away.

I wasn't alive during Watergate, but when I look at popular media, movies, people were glued to the live congressional hearings.

That's.

Yeah, they were congressional hearings.

Kathy went to them. She heard John Mitchell do his testimony. So she was actually in the room with.

Who was John Mitchell?

John Mitchell, he was the Attorney General for Richard Nixon. And he went to jail, I believe, back in the days when people went to jail for doing bad things. But the other thing that is notable to me is that during COVID it was a miserable period of time and I was just watching, like, way too much television, way too much quote, unquote news.

There wasn't much else to do, arguably.

And I would say that, you know, I've always been kind of aware of what's going on in the news, but that was the point where I became more consumed with. It was 2020 when I found myself wanting to know what was going on basically with the pandemic. And ever since then, it's kind of been a daily part of my life where I at least will watch, if nothing else, although I watch it on YouTube because it fits into my schedule, but I'll watch the news on there and kind of catch up with it. And I do it pretty much every single morning. And I never did that before. Before 2020, that was never a thing.

So you still do that Currently I do, because I think we should talk about our own media patterns Our own media diets.

Well, and it's interesting that you talk about people having too much and it's also interesting when you watch people, how they react to news. Because I'm very. I don't really have a lot of reaction to it. You know, a lot of the times I go, okay, I just take it in and there might be something in my head where I go, well, that is not a good thing. Or that is a good thing. But then if my girlfriend's watching with me, she's very vocal and she's yelling at the screen and, you know, bless her, she's passionate, you know, and I always feel like maybe I'm just not passionate enough. Well, it's just I just react different.

The patterns and the reactions and the just general relationship between an individual and media is very individual. It's varied for a number of reasons. Do you only look at things in the morning or will you look at things throughout the day? And how much time do you spend in the morning?

Well, the definition in news has really kind of expanded these days.

Well, let's expand the discussion to just general media. So screen time on your phone or. So there's news, but there's also social media, obviously.

And if I had to put a number on it, I would say maybe 30 minutes a day. And that really is just where it's just straight out news. But if you add in various other items that I will watch, you know, when you're talking about. Because I am absolute huge fan of John Oliver. But that's principally news. You know, when you look at it now, is it skewed? Definitely, yeah, yeah, it is, it is.

I mean, he's a comedian, but he's also very critical. Critical meaning digests a lot of information on the show.

And then there's Seth Meyers. You know, a lot of the times when I'm watching that extra news, it's to get a good laugh too.

Well, what about you, Mike? What's your media patterns, your digestion of media through the day?

I do a fair amount of doom scrolling.

Well, we're going to talk about that. So tell us what you. What is doom scrolling? So what do you.

In the morning? The very first thing I look at is Heather Cox Richardson. So she publishes an article every day and it's a review of the previous day's news. But it's also placed in a context, a historical context, both American history and also national history. And that's very informative to me. And quite often it's kind of alarming because she Has a read on, you know, the slide into tyranny and fascism. So that piece of it feels like doom scrolling, but it's also not inaccurate, let me put it that way. So I'll go from there to reading other stuff, reading fiction for the next hour and listening to music and doing a little spiritual stuff like that.

Balance out.

Yeah, try to balance it out a little bit. Sometimes on the way into work, I'll listen to music. Sometimes I'll turn in and listen to news, depending on what's going on and how, you know, oh my gosh, a war just started. I'll probably listen to more news right now because of what's going on in the Middle East.

I would agree with that. Yeah, sometimes my consumption will go up when there's a particular event happening.

Like a spike with something. Yeah, no spike that's worthy. I wake up in the morning, I don't look at my phone right away. I do have some coffee and kind of putts around for maybe a half an hour. But when I start to do the getting ready process, shower, shave, I do put on podcasts. So I listen to the Daily, which is a New York Times half an hour dive into some news topic that's happening. Like today discussed the Iranian situation and also headlines. So it's a kind of a synopsis of the major headlines of that day. So usually 40 minutes of listening and then I will throughout the day on breaks, look at my phone and check in with usually a news app or some type of media source. I like Substack. That's a recent one for me. If you guys use Substack, it's a kind of an alternative, I would say, to Facebook. It's definitely very news oriented, so less of the social part. But I've come to like that. So I've tried to curate select news sources as well as apps that present things in a way that's a little bit more information heavy and less social media heavy. Tried to move away from social media

when you mentioned podcasting. Well, I have a question for you, Dillion. You make podcasts all day long. Do you listen to podcasts other than what you produce here?

I can't say that. I'm a huge consumer and a lot of it, because of what you just said, it's just one of those things I, you know, it kind of is. My day's done. It's not really an entertainment form for me. Generally music or if I'm going to sit down, tv.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Now, do you think your media consumption is Nourishing, it provides positive things for you or toxic or a balance.

That's a good question. Again, I don't tend to have very animated reactions, so I don't really know that it affects me that much other than, you know, I mean, there's a lot of depressing stuff out there and I don't like. You guys sound like you seek it out a little bit more than I do.

What. Whereas I'm like, we don't have enough drama.

I mean, I'll agree with Mike and

the fact that a couple.

Occasionally I've been known if there's something going on, I might turn on the radio, listen a little bit. But for the most part, I look at it as this is my new snapshot. And the unfortunate part is I really do only get my news from one source and that's not really a good thing to do, in my opinion. I think you should get it from different sources, different perspectives. And unfortunately, I tend to keep it to that 30 minutes and then I'm done for the day.

Well, I don't think that's a bad thing. I don't think that's a bad thing at all. I think that might be a very healthy.

Keeping myself informed is all I'm doing.

What about you, Mike?

I will. Well, I'll listen to. What was the question I got.

Do you feel like your relationship with media is nourishing, it provides value and benefit and positive things to your life, or do you feel like it's more

of a negative in response to that, I will say yes.

Yes. I think it's both for me. So I will find myself at times when things are really at a peak, I'll start to consume more of it, and that's not good for my health. A number of my clients will talk about this and we'll talk about limiting it. I've got a colleague, for instance, who she talks about the only place she gets her news is NPR and BBC. And I'm like, that's a great idea. Why don't I do that? Because television and media, it's all about the clicks. It's all about how many eyes are set on that. They're trying to sell advertising. And the way they do it is. Is to get you angry or scared. Those are the main emotional states. And they will feed you whatever it is that they need to feed you to keep you looking at it.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's a vested interest on the media companies for the clicks. So the more sensational.

They're good at it.

They are Good at it. And so that's the psyche, the mind aspect aspect of how the media or how communications or marketing is able to tap into some of the underlying brain chemistry of what happens when people interface with media. Also social media. TikTok reels Instagram now.

Do you do TikTok?

I did for a long time. I don't anymore. It's been probably a year since I have tiktoked because it was really during the pandemic, I was like, what is this TikTok thing?

And I guess my question is, how do you summarize news on TikTok?

So there is a news component to it, but it's much more social media. So this introduced kind of a concept of more brain rot types of things. So there's a theory or an idea and I guess it's debatable whether or not news is building. It's information, it's that you're digesting, you're critically thinking, hopefully. Whereas something like TikTok is more mindless. Scrolling videos are very short, 20 seconds, 40 seconds, up to a minute. And the idea is just to kind of sit there and literally scroll through videos that you find amusing. So dance videos, funny things, people falling things that are literally brain candy. So I'm talking about my own experience. I would watch them two hours. I would get home from work or it would be in the evening and two hours easily could go by. You just get into this trance, this trance of scrolling and sending them to people and laughing and something takes over. And at a certain point I said, this is not adding anything to my life.

Do you know what's interesting is even though my news consumption probably went up during 2020, my social media dropped and I'm rarely on Facebook anymore. I used to be on Facebook quite a bit. Instagram. I don't really do that that much.

Well, it's because we're old.

But it's exactly what used be to said. I had a day where I was sitting there and I was like kind of scrolling through my newsfeed and I just had this moment where I went, what am I doing? I'm like, I don't have any interest in anything that I'm looking at. Not really. I mean, I want to know about my friends. That's about it. But most of the stuff, I'm just like, this is kind of dumb. And I just stopped after that. I stopped.

Well, you avoided the hook. I mean, once it kind of gets into I had it.

I mean, because I was doing so Facebook for quite a while. In fact, I was one of the first people I knew on Facebook back in the day.

Were you on MySpace?

I was not.

You were not? I did not do that. I was. I loved MySpace. I was big enough.

I heard it was pretty cool.

It was very cool. And it was the, you know, I mean, Facebook was very passe. The only people who use Facebook at that time were really college kids and like Ivy League college kids. So, you know, MySpace was for the NASCAR. Yeah. And that was. It was like, oh, like, you know, old people and kind of dorky people use it.

What's your social media consumption like?

Check Facebook right now.

Well, you know, you and I are friends. Everybody knows that. And we're friends on Facebook. And you're fairly active on Facebook.

I am. I plugged my radio show, A Groove supreme, which is on a different station. It's a jazz radio show. I do that on a weekly basis. Once every other month I'll plug my book, the Little Green Book, which continues to sell. Available on Amazon.com I've plugged psychedelicious Conversation once, I think so far only once. And every now and then I'll see an article that catches me on fire and I'll pin that. I'll do that occasionally. But one thing I do is that I take a walk. Like probably four times a week. I walk around downtown and I just take pictures of things that are interesting to me. And it's funny because that is like one of the most popular things I do. I couldn't see that. Yeah, people say I missed your today's walk. You know, so it was just like I just post pictures of just different things that look interesting to me or beautiful or I don't know, it's kind of interesting.

You said the psychodelicious conversation that and. And you didn't get stopped.

How long ago was that? I didn't get stopped.

Yeah. So basically it was like, I want to say last year. I kept trying to post stuff and Facebook kept coming at me and saying that this violates our policy, blah, blah, blah, because they felt like it was advertising. Anytime I was hosting a show or something like that, that was the only thing I was doing on Facebook was work related stuff. And I just kept getting stopped. And so finally I was just like, I'm just not going to do this anymore.

That's interesting. Well, I've had a couple of. I don't know if it's warnings or something. Just recently, very recently. If you want to. Do you want to keep this as a public profile or do you want it to Be a business profile. And so I think it's because I've plugged different things like that. And so it's like. So, I mean, you can create a number of different profiles. We could have a psycho. Delicious conversation. Facebook page, if I wanted to do that. I thought about doing that at some point, but when I do that, I walk around and I listen to podcasts. Almost always I'm either talking to someone through my earphones, you know, and just having conversations. I did that during COVID I went through my whole book, all my contacts. Did I ever talk to you during that time?

I don't think so.

I talked to all kinds of people. You know, people from high school, from people I'd worked with years and years and years ago, distant relatives. It was really interesting to do. You know, it's like, well, I've got all these names in here and we're. No, nobody's seen anybody. So I'll just. I'll just start talking.

That sounds really cool.

It was cool.

And also very healthy.

Yeah.

So how do you feel about media impacting your mental health or maybe mental health in general?

I can tell. Well, okay, how do I put this? I think that there's something going on. This is going to sound crazy, maybe. I think there's something going on that we don't fully see, you know, that we don't see the forest for the trees. We're in the middle of something which is a convergence of social media, and AI is going to escalate it to an nth degree and some big shifts in the way our government has been run and that corporations are people and money is speech, and all of a sudden you can buy elections and all kinds of things have shifted a lot. And then the bifurcation of the media that you've got right wing radio and you've got left wing radio and never the twain should meet, you know, I mean, every now and then Pete Buttigieg goes on Fox News, but yeah, it's strange.

It's really information polarization. What are they call it? Information. There's a word for it. When you're just hearing the same thing

over your own silo. Yeah, yeah. Reinforcement of your own ideas, you know, or that. And the silo idea after the last election was like, oh, my gosh, I had no idea. Well, it was because I don't listen

to the other side, you know, I really don't.

It's like, turns out a lot of people were listening to the other side.

Well, do you think it's a problem that you don't listen to the other side. I mean, that you're not expecting, exposed to the duality or, you know, ideally the plethora of viewpoints that are out there. Echo chamber just came to me. That's the echo chamber.

One thing that a lot of the media that I pay attention to, what they do, is that they do pay attention to right wing radio. And so they'll say, here's the talking points.

This is what you were hearing. Well, that's an interesting thing because Heather Cox Richardson as an example, and AI, it will digest the information for you or for the consumer because there's too much to pay attention to. I myself cannot, you know, monitor 5,000 data feeds of information coming from all different places. But there are people that do. And you know, Heather Cox Richardson does a great job with digesting a lot of information, has a huge amount of knowledge about. She's got a PhD, she's a history professor. And so her lens is through history, just like John Oliver's lens is comedy and more kind of current events and critical thinking. And that's the kind of things that I consume. But sometimes I do get a bit concerned maybe that I'm not having as much of a meaningful dialogue with other folks with different viewpoints. This is kind of a different issue than media, but it's certainly related to.

It is. And it is.

And I mean, that's kind of, you know, the polarization. It's really hard to find an outlet really, that is just in the center, which is what news is supposed to be.

Yeah. At a certain, you know, so I

had a friend who, this is the way he put it, he said that, you know, throughout evolution, for years and years and years, our bodies were designed in a way that we would capture any fat that we ate, any, anything that we could convert to fat, because we were always on the verge of starving to death. And then all of a sudden, food became plentiful and now it's like, oh, how do I take this weight off?

Or how do I keep.

But he thinks the same thing is true of information that, you know, hundreds of years ago you knew maybe 10 people and news came very rarely. You had lots of time to, you know, sorted out and all that kind of stuff. And now we are flooded with news.

Absolutely.

We have way too much or not too much, but more than we can filter ourselves.

So I was reading and I talk to my clients a lot about this because a lot of my clients will come to me and they're, they're interested in attention deficit Disorder as a diagnosis, they have difficulty paying attention to things for longer than, you know, 20 seconds. However it may be, it's a short period of time. It's almost impossible to read something like a book or a chapter. And so, you know, is there. So in my brain, I'm thinking, is there something inherent to the brain chemistry here? The person has a neurodevelopmental disorder. They were born with it. The regulation of their attention, which is, you know, a brain function, is pathologically problematic. Or is it that they have not exercised their brain to the point where they're able to sit with information or sit with a topic or really anything for longer than 20, 40, whatever seconds. And I'm increasingly believing or beginning interested in the relationship that people have with information through social media, particularly our young folks, and what that's doing to brain, to basically training of the brain. And that's a very difficult thing to tease out using the context of our current understanding of, not necessarily our current understanding of attention, but our current kind of diagnostic tools and things that we have. The speed of the change that has happened has not been mirrored in, I think in our medicine, in our psychiatry, in our training. So that's why it's very interesting and I think a big problem.

There's a book I have, and I'm blocking on the title of the book, but it has a quiz in there about whether or not you have attention deficit disorder. And when I go through it with somebody, I say, well, let's take a look and we'll go through it and check different things. And I'm always more add than client is.

Well, in the next. In the next episode, we're going to dig a little bit deeper into the pathology or into the. Into the psychiatric and psychological aspects.

A psycho delicious conversation is meant for educational and entertainment purposes only. It is no substitute for therapy and should not be treated as such. If you feel a need for real therapy, you should consult your local provider, Google Therapy, or therapists in your area. Check with community mental Health or a suicide hotline if you are feeling suicidal.

Mike and Morgan welcome your questions, feedback or dilemmas. Feel free to send us an email at a psychodelicious conversationmail.com that is a psychodelicious psych C-H O D E L I C I o u s conversationmail.com

the views expressed on this podcast are solely the opinions of Mike Stratton and Morgan Bowen and do not reflect the views or opinions of any site broadcasting this podcast. Replication of this podcast without written permission is strictly prohibited. Featuring the faculty, staff, students and others that help to make Lansing's premier college what it is today. LCC Connect Mid Michigan's connection to Lansing Community College to find out more about our featured programs or to listen on demand, Visit us@lccconnect.org

LCC Connect Voices vibes Vision.

The stage is alive and well at Lansing Community College. Each year the downtown campus comes to life with more than 30 performances at Dart Auditorium, the Black Box Theater and LCC's outdoor amphitheater. These productions are more than entertainment, they're part of the learning experience. Students in LCC's performing arts program gain hands on experience both on stage and behind the scenes, developing confidence, creativity and collaboration. From powerful plays to lively concerts, LCC's performances celebrate local talent and the vibrant spirit of the arts in our community. All performances are free. Find out what's next at LCC.edushowinfo what

grows in the forest?

Trees sure know what else grows in the forest?

Our imagination, our sense of wonder and our family bonds grow too.

Because when we disconnect from this

and

connect with this, we reconnect with each other and build family memories we will

carry with us forever.

The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring@discovertheforest.org it's easy.

Just put in your zip code to

find family friendly outdoor destinations near you.

You'll also find guides to free activities, games and amazing forest facts.

Give the magic of the outdoors to

your kids and reconnect with your family.

Find a forest near you@discovertheforest.org that's discovertheforest.org

brought to you by the United States

Forest Service and the Ad Council.

Feeling froggy? Well, leap into 20 podcasts at LCC

LCC alumni stories a show dedicated to

highlighting the amazing alumni of Lansing Community College.

I'm Steve Robinson, President of lcc, and

on each episode I have the awesome

privilege of getting to know one of

our many inspiring alums and hearing about their experiences at and since leaving lcc.

Listen to this program and many others on demand@lccconnect.org.

Returning to school can be a challenge

if you're a recent high school grad,

a new Michigan Reconnect participant at lcc, or a GED holder, we want to help you succeed. With extra support in reading, writing and math, LCC's Coalition for College and Career Readiness presents College Connect, a four week no cost initiative created to prepare students with the tools needed to succeed at lcc. College Connect begins in July, but seating is limited. To find deadline and enrollment information, visit lcc.

Edu cc.

This is wlnz lansing. You're listening to lcc connect, a weekly program that features the voices, vibes and vision of lansing community college. To find out more about lcc connect programs or to listen on demand, visit us@lccconnect.org lcc connect, voices, vibes, vision.