John:

It always haunts me to say: how courageous are you raising issues that are unpopular? When you're not quite sure how much antipathy that challenge will evoke among people and how much they can cope with it as well as you.

Alex:

Today’s guest is Sir John Battle, who lives in West Leeds and was an MP there for 23 years before retiring in 2010.

In this episode we’ll find out what happens when John is faced with a decision: resort to violence or take the high road.

The story starts back in 1981; John was in his early 20s. It was six years before he became an MP. During a council meeting at the town hall, John took a stand for what he believed was right.

John:

At that time, there was a real problem in some areas of the inner city of Leeds, with travellers with their caravans parking in places that were residential, you know, in the middle of flats and things, and sometimes they were rows with the local people. But what tended to happen was the council went in very hard to drive them off, but without any provision for anywhere for them to go. And I remember raising this matter in the council, and evoking a ferocious reaction. You know, why on earth is he taking the side of these people, they don't vote, they shouldn't be here. They should live normal lives and all the usual

There wasn't much sympathy for travellers and gypsy people at that time. And they were seen as outsiders. And there was a bit of racism around at that time, and I didn't quite realise what kind of a reaction it would evoke.

There was a general discussion in the group, we were in about it. And there was pretty much why, why was I raising this matter? And that I was a bit of an idiot to raise it at all and couldn’t I see it wasn’t good politics and would only cause havoc in the city if it were ever to be that we suddenly started favouring travellers and gypsies. So it was quite a fraught moment.

And I kept going and saying, no, these people are human beings, and their kids ought to be treated decently and we ought to be providing education. And I remember one person in the council meeting there, coming round the side of the chairs and coming up to me in a really threatening manner. I thought it was gonna give me give me a belt saying Shut up and don't raise it.

It was one of the leaders of the Council at the time, and I was what they called at the time, a young scruffy backbencher without much power. And that person had a power job within the council. And that person was– he was a burly bloke and a lot older than me. He was heavily built, I was a bit of a skinny malink. And I thought, well, do I take my chances? Well, I wasn't sure whether he were gonna lay out or not. But he’s certainly come down to give me a strong telling off at the very least, you know, and it was a bit fearful, I was a bit afraid. And I thought I'd gone into dangerous waters here.

He left his seat and come round the side and down behind everybody else because I was at one end of the room to him. And I just felt that yeah, this is a person that's really overworked up about this really

It was close enough to mitigate, you know, arm's length away to give me a shoulder if he needed to. It really hit a raw nerve.

And I just felt at that point, this is evoking much stronger adverse reactions than I ever could imagine. Have I got it wrong?

I felt quite threatened really, you know, I thought, is this guy going to come? And are we going to have an open fight at the back of the council meeting? And I kind of felt well, we've gone beyond words here. And I thought that politics was about words and discussion, and we could at least agree to differ, but there was none of that. And I thought, No, this has gone beyond that. And I thought, how do you… how do you handle that kind of situation? Do I open into a fight? Do I try and hold me ground? and I was in difficulties with it.

Alex

What the feelings and emotions going through your body at this stage?

John Battle

Ah, I couldn't quite understand it. And I knew the person and thought more of the person than that. So I was a bit shocked at the reaction.

The experience I had was, what do you do when you get to that edge of a situation? You know, how do you respond to it, you just back off and walk away? Because it's not something I was used to doing. And you know, in a situation I'd argue me karma, you know, I was an argumentative person. I got that from my dad. He would argue with me, so I'd be used to having an argument but not turn it into a fight.

In the end, no punch was thrown and the guy backed off and I shut up. That's how it ended. And I wondered whether I'd done the right thing.

Alex

And did you did you think about punching him?

John Battle

I think I probably thought if he comes at me, I'm going for him as well. Yeah. I'll take my glasses off and have a go. I was worried about in a fight as from being a kid. If he ever get my glasses broken. I'm lost because I've only got one good day and I don't want the glasses broken in my eyes. So I'm always really worried about my glasses. So I've never been a fighter despite my name being battle. I've tended to be a bit of a peacenik and would go for the compromise all the time, rather than push the boat out and give someone to show that I tend not to throw the first punch actually

Alex

What was the reaction from the other people in the room,

John Battle

it was a candidate deathly silence. There was a kind of a silent moment, you know, when the right is shut up and sat down. And then we were silent for a few minutes and next item on the agenda move on, as if nothing had happened, you know, and that kind of went something that has happened here, what's gone wrong? Should you raise these issues? And it always haunts me to say, how courageous Are you raising issues that are unpopular? When you're not quite sure how much antipathy that challenge will evoke them on people and how much they can cope with it as well as you?

Alex

What was it about you that made you go, you know what, I'm the only person who's going to defend these travellers.

John Battle

And because I'd been with them, and been with the travellers taught to them, listen to them, and I liked him. And I thought they were good people. And I learned things from them, like the fact that if they have a birthday, they give presents cake to other people, they don't receive a cake. And I thought, some beautiful moments in their culture that I really loved and thought was, I'm learning from them, these are great, people don't rubbish them. So I was going to try and stand up for them really, and a little bit of it's been used to defending the underdog in a way whenever else is against him, someone ought to speak out. And eventually, there was a traveller site, and there is a travellers site in Leeds that's properly supported by the local authority, but it was a struggle.

Alex

So how did you? How did you feel once you left that council room that day after what had happened?

John Battle

I think, a sense of failure really, that, you know, I've misread the situation badly, the people that you thought were on your side were not and didn't speak out. So you felt a little bit betrayed, really, and that you were out fighting the wrong cause? And then a kind of a doubt that you've got it right, you know, you may be wrong, maybe all the people in the neighbourhood are not really told me, right, that they were against them, you know, and I should really take their side because they were the voters, and I was not on the side of the voters against the travellers, really. So I doubted I had great doubts about whether it was the right thing to do. But in the longer term, as the thing worked through it the policy one through that there was more empathy.

Alex

Did you did you walk away from the council meeting thinking, Oh, I better be careful. Next time in, in other, you know, talking about other issues that someone doesn't come down and try and punch me.

John Battle

Yeah, I did. And but I think, I think the biggest thing was just pack it in and walk away, that was the biggest thing, do smells, you know us into life. But I think in a way that experience strengthened me, and I'm grateful for it. Because there came occasions later in life, both in Parliament, and even in government, and even in, you know, senior meetings, as in government, where it was important to speak out, and to stand up for themes that you researched and believe we're right, even if you pay the price, I'm thinking volting again, so I mean, despite my name battle, I've voted against everyone and the number of times six, five or six times, you know, being told you live your career in politics is over, because you're not taking the party line, you know, and I think sometimes you have to, to ride that, then stick to your principles, really. And that a great man that encouraged me to do that, even though I voted against him. And he wrote me a note saying, stick to your principles, whatever you do think it through. And that letter came from the great John Smith, who tragically died before his time to become the Labour leader.

Alex

Did you question yourself? Did you question yourself as a man after this, this scenario in terms of having to deal with that kind of situation? Did you think you were equipped to deal with those kinds of situations more so in future,

John Battle

if you've got strong opinions, you can't bludgeon them onto people and battle your way through? It doesn't work. You know, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, and I've been in meetings where people have turned ups and I'm telling you, I want what's what, regardless, or anybody else says, you know, that is right out of order. The other way is that reason, an argument and facts don't always win either. It isn't a world of reason, an argument because there are emotions and feelings in there as well. And it's mixed up. And people are very, very complicated, both as individuals, and indeed collectively as a group. There's a lovely poem that I love by an Irish poet called Patrick Kavanah, an Irishman, and he had a poem called from failure up and the first line was, can a man grow from the cloud of failure, some consoling flowers, something as humble as a dandelion, or a daisy? And it's that bottom small simple moves that make the changes and I've had to learn that lesson, but it can be painful

Alex

Were you a dandelion or a daisy that day,

John Battle

dandelion, and definitely a dandelion. And the reason is the change very quickly, and they turn into clocks and get blown away.

Alex

As we're hearing stories, we're always thinking about how it relates to our life and what we would have done. You know, I'm thinking, as I'm listening to your story, I'm thinking, what would I have done in that situation? Because you have a decision to make at that point, you know, people say, exactly, you know, you hear people say, boxers, or people who are street fighters, or any sort of man on the street will say, if someone is coming towards you, in an aggressive manner, and they look like they're going to punch you, it's probably better to punch them before they punch you because you're acting in self defence you because at that point, he's walking towards you, you don't know whether he's going to punch you or whether he's just going to try and intimidate you. So how do you? How do you hold yourself back from that?

John Battle

Well, I think it's a massive question that and it's a question. Think of your own children? What do you encourage them to do? If they've been bullied? For example? Do you tell them to go in first? You know, I was the eldest of eight children. And it was a bit of the leader of the gang. And I can remember situations where our family gang was set against other family gangs. Do you know what I mean? And what do you do if someone hits you, Brother assisted you go through them and pick them off? And there they are real questions about whether you take the initiative and going hard, are you encouraged people, you know, if I hit you, then you'll know what it feels like. So you'll be able to take it and go in again. You know, it was a question of whether you went in first off, you withdrew. But I think in that, in the hole, sent back to me glasses on, I was really protective of me eyes and didn't want to get drawn in. So I wasn't a fighter, Street Fighter. Really, I would tend to compromise and pull back, which probably explains my politics.

Alex

Do you think do you think people this was what 40? This is 41 years ago? Since 1981? Yeah. 2022? Do you think people do you think men back then were more likely to punch rather than reason?

John Battle

I'm not sure more than now, I tell you what I mean, I would still go around the doors, knocking on doors. And occasionally, I would say quite a few men in their 30s to 50s. You may, you know, if you're going around for politics, knocking on the door Smashville Do I still support the political party that had the privilege are represented and the people that are represented. And I often say it, you go and you're knocking on a dark cold and somebody will come out really aggressive towards you really abusive, and sometimes work training people to do the door knocking the canvas in as you call it and say, you know, don't take it too seriously. Because the first reaction that quite a few men is to come out hard and really give it you. And you've done a laugh it off and get beyond it. And so I always joke that the first reaction is a kind of nervous violence, you know, is the first reaction that tell you to clear off in hard language. And sometimes going around the pubs and clubs and things as I did as an MP, you'd meet the hard word first. But then if you if you rolled through it and put a bit of humour into it, people would say, Hey, hang on, we don't need to go in so hard. Can we use up a bit, and you can build a relationship? And I used to love doing that and enjoy doing that really?

Alex

Well, you hear about, you know, a lot of violent men are bullies or whatever, that they're just scared little boys in a man's body. When you say nervous violence, it made me think of that, do you think that many times that they're coming at you kind of like this? It's not really, you know?

John Battle

Absolutely. And in a way, I'm proud of my glasses, because people think if your glasses and skinny like am that you're not going to come they're not they're really do believe they can take you on. I find it harder if the shielded in a car because think the violence on the road and drive it is. But in real life, if you're up against a person stood on their own, as it were bare naked except for the claws, that there is that fear, the fears, the fear of other people is much stronger than the openness to and it's that question of vulnerability. Can you accept your own vulnerability, and I think that's really important. And that's what I got from that little poem of Patrick covenant, you know, and explore. accepting your own vulnerability and not being ashamed or afraid to share your vulnerabilities is really crucial in helping other people to share their hours and say, Actually, we're all vulnerable. whatever walk of life we're in whatever level of society we're in, there are real vulnerabilities. And that can be wounds that hurt. But if we can share them, we'll get through it together and be able to be much more hopeful and positive.

Alex

If I think back on my life of vulnerability, I think that's, that's made me more of a man by actually revealing that vulnerability. And that's not it's not about extremes, either. It's not, you know, crying every day about something. But, you know, it's not constantly pouring your heart out to people, but when there's a balance with everything isn't there, but being able to express that vulnerability, as you know, not not keeping things to yourself? I think it's really important. I think you've exemplified that really well the way that you seems to have diffused confrontational situations over the years. Yeah.

John Battle

I think it's you know, if you imagine life as a graph, you know, that goes up and down very rapid, like a heart thing. And if it goes up and down to wild, or even the climate if it's hot and cold, very fast, and you want it to level out, and I think it's how do we level out our vulnerabilities, rather than added pour it all out, and then other high, you know, and, and if we can share the levelling out, we can get through life, a smile, or a joke, can change someone's life. So the small gestures are more important sometimes and the great statements and politics,

Alex

I can completely agree and I think humour, a lot of English guys, British guys, they, there's a big thing in our culture about self deprecating humour, as well, you know, we yeah, we make jokes about ourself. And it's also revealing our vulnerability at the same time. Yeah,

John Battle

yeah. Yeah, I think that's the key though, being able to laugh at yourself, and show that you are a bit of an idiot, some of the time, I think it helps because otherwise, it's the humans taking it out of someone else, you know, and turning that inside and say, Well, I'm I'm as stupid as you are, really.

Alex

You're cut you come across in your, in all the roles in Parliament, etc. And all the other work that you do, I'm sure you've come across men from many different walks of life, you know, from from young, from young men, you know, teenagers, men in their 20s 30s, up to, you know, all ages. What, what do you notice in terms of the vulnerability, because when I, when I speak to young men, you know, teens or whatever they, they, they're not, in a lot of ways, the ones I've spoken to anyway, they're not necessarily always open to expressing how they feel. And I think about from my own life, that I didn't say things until I was 29 years old, you because it was, it was kind of this worry of, if you see something that's considered stupid, that your friends are going to take the piss out of you?

John Battle

Yeah, yeah, I do some of the workshops with young people to try and create some space for them to speak for them to move into believers. And I did this leadership training of people who'd gone to college or high school, and we're doing that a levels, whatever we call it now. GCSEs. And we're intelligent, bright people, you know, well, ofay with the internet, was we're working hard. And they came on a zoom. And I was really shocked when they were asking me about leadership, because what came across to me was a massive lack of confidence in themselves, they didn't believe they could speak in public, you know, that they could stand up and speak in public. And one person was on saying, I can't speak very well, because I haven't got a good personality. And they spoke for about five minutes about themselves. So Well, that's the best English I've heard, because you speak in sentences, unlike me that stop and start, I completely understood it. A it was a moving thing that you said, I said, your speaking is brilliant, but you have no confidence that you can do it. And I think a lot of young people particularly actually lack a deep confidence in themselves. So we get a kind of full confidence that's there. So you know, I can do it. But but but don't believe they can do it. And I think it's was instilled in people a real sense of, you know, failure in a way that they can't do things that they can, you know, the world's to company is too difficult, I can't make changes, I can't change myself, and I can't break through, I will be wanting to build into people a real sense of hope that they can transform the world and themselves, they can do it.

Alex

It's interesting, you say about full confidence as well. And I see that in a lot of young young guys, you know, they'll, they'll like the big man, and they'll have to provide or, but actually, when it comes to a scenario where you might say, give a speech to 3040 people, and they'll just be terrified of, they'll melt. And I'm sure you've seen that a lot in the work that you do.

John Battle

Yeah. And well, again, the key thing is for people like me to get out of the way, what I want to do is be in the wings, you know, you've got the stage, you've got the curtain, you have to be just at the side of the curtain, push them out into the front and encourage them to get up and do it and just whisper at them while they're on stage. Do it breathe in twice, and now say it and just encourage them to and once they've done it and broken through. They'll get there and I think we've to encourage more young people to take part to join in, and to share their criticism and vision of the sort of society we've got so that it can be changed. And people like me, the older generation, yes, we have some experience and wisdom, but we've to listen to them and get out of the way.

Alex

You you really come across as someone that we need in society to to educate young boys young men about what it means to be a man because, you know, you've you've really done what appears to me from from, you're talking about your life as you really talk. You talk a lot about vulnerability, but there's a strength behind that. There's no There's no cowardice from what I'm seeing in you When, but there's a lot of this feeling of, if you're a man and you're vulnerable, that means that you're, you're you're a coward, or you don't have the confidence or the self conviction to stand up for yourself. But you were standing up for yourself, you won't do it in a cowardly way you were doing it in, you know, we're coming from a place of strength, this vulnerability. And I think that's something that's missing. In in young men nowadays,

John Battle

maybe I wouldn't overestimate it. Maybe when I look back. And I've told that story. I've not done enough to support the traveller community since maybe so you know, that I'm not a saint in that respect. And there's other stories that others will tell around. But I think the key thing is to in a way, it is about principles and ethics, isn't it morality, really, it's not about, you know, whether you worship money or fame, but it's about whether you want to change the place to be a better place for people to live together. And that's a really, really hard job. There's too much suffering in the world that we can't solve, you know, doctors and scientists are working their best to try and solve brain problems and damage to people, because they don't understand everything about human beings to make them work, right, the hospitals are full of it. Yet there are situations in our communities that we could resolve, if we got closer to each other, and listen to each other a bit more. So to nudge people to listen to a final story. There was a great route in the neighbourhood when I was an MP about a girl that was going to be shot. And the men wanted to keep it off them to go to the pub, but the women were a bit frightened of it because people come in marauding down into their gardens. So they had to say, Okay, we'll have a community meeting the backstory is, and the primary school they had a school council of 10 year olds that ran the school. And I'd said to the meet the school council at eight kids. And one of the little girls there says, I'm the secretary of the school counsellors, and you're a secretary. So what a big word that is. I said, I work for the Secretary of State I'm a minister and the Secretary of State is, what does the Secretary do? And she said, you listen carefully to what people say, your write it down, and then make sure Summit's done about it. Brilliant. We have a meeting in a house about this girl on a Saturday afternoon, and this woman puts on tea and bonds and all the neighbours come round. And this house is packed the front room. And this block blazes in shouting his mouth off. That effing girl is going to stay up now. Don't get me how many people are here. I'm telling you, it's staying up, man up, get him out your bloody meetings. And everyone's a bit shocked ready? Because no one was in charge at the meeting. And we just turned up. But outside on a bike was this little girl. So I saw through the window is a sunny day and I went to the dosa, can you come in a minute? That's an all these adults are struggling with this meeting? And you told me you were a secretary? Do you remember what you said? Gus, I think y'all should run this meeting because you know what to do? I said, What's the Secretary, she come out with it again, you listen carefully to what people say you write it down and make sure someone's done about us. And I think the adults need to learn from you how to organise their discussions to sort this problem out and the bloke walked out. And I'm not having to do this and said I'm off. But it was quite a lesson. It's not because he didn't want to listen to you. Absolutely. Yeah. And you kind of thought the kids have got it. The kids are getting that. So the hope for the future. Give them some space. Just

Alex

last thing, John, what do you do nowadays to help support young younger men and men in general,

John Battle

I do a walking group with people in new work that we have a men's walking group every Friday where we go for a walk and then share a meal. And we've had it going now for 11 years every Friday and I do and most Fridays are due. And we have a group of people that come out the flats who live alone and have got all kinds of challenges. And as someone says, It doesn't matter whether you've been in a family or parliament, it doesn't matter. It's the same. And so people come along, we walk along the canal and do urban walks. We're sharing compare notes a little bit No one asks about who's from where that group of people are brilliant group of people with fantastic experience and wisdom. Engineers. One guy can tell you the name of all the plants along the side of the road. Another guy has got an MA in literature and will quote Shakespeare as we go along. You know brilliant people who've just been overlooked under estimated massively and then challenges in their life from all sorts of reasons

Alex:

A strong theme that has emerged from St. John's life is that he goes against his last name. He doesn't battle in the traditional sense of the word. He's voted against every war. Despite the potential cost for his career. He's been the one to stand up for what he believes in. He's shown incredible grit and strength. This is something that I really respect in John, when I was a teenager, I had fights and punch people, not out of strength, but out of fear. I'd like to believe that if a situation like this happened in future, I'd be able to stand my ground and stop a potential violence situation from happening. It's a bravado thing for guys in many cases, where they think they'll get more respect from their friends and their partner if they fight, but I'm not so sure. I think if we have the right people in our lives with the right morals, they'd be far more impressed if we used our verbal abilities to defuse a situation. Hopefully the majority can see this moving forward.

Thanks for listening to today's episode with Sir John battle. If you'd like to learn more about the our voices podcast, please go to our voices podcast.com. You can also follow us on Apple podcasts. And while you're there, please leave us a review. It would help me a lot to grow the show. Thanks so much for listening, and see you next week for another great story.