00:00:06 Sana: Let me start with something simple and maybe uncomfortable. Most of us aren't actually overwhelmed because we are doing too much. We are overwhelmed because we are doing the wrong things for the wrong reasons and calling it productivity. Now, listeners, I hope that you'll agree with me that busy has become our armour. Like I'm slammed. What we're often really saying is please don't ask me to slow down, reflect, or change anything. Let it be like this.

00:00:42 Sana: So today's conversation, listeners, is about the invisible constraints, the internal ones that quietly cap our performance, drain our energy, and keep us looping in survival mode While calling it success. So listeners, my guest, Henry Bowles, has spent decades studying communication, resilience and human performance across classrooms at Harvard and Oxford, boardrooms and high pressure leadership environments. And you know what? What I appreciate about his work is that it doesn't glorify grit or hustle, but it asks harder questions. What are you responding to? What are you expanding into and what are you avoiding by staying busy? So with that, listeners, let's begin this conversation on the Mindful Living podcast with your hosts. And as always and Henry, welcome to the show. And I'm really, really glad you are here.

00:01:48 Henry Bowles: It's an absolute delight to be here. Thank you for for having me. And I can't wait to try to give your audience some, some useful tools that they can use right away to make their lives even better.

00:02:02 Sana: Absolutely, absolutely. Um, Henry, to begin with, uh, even even before we dive deep into the topic or we talk about the busy versus effective thing, I think, um, we have, um, intentionally or unintentionally, consciously or unconsciously used busy as, uh, an armor. More like a facade that, you know, I'm busy. I don't have time for this. I'm very busy. Or when we're not busy, we feel like, you know, we are worthless. Like it's directly connected with our identity and our feeling of having some worth or some value or having relevance. So I think this is such, such an important topic and, uh, with with that, um, I mean, from your perspective, Henry, I would love to understand, um, What's what's the difference between being busy and being effective? Why do so many high performers confuse the two in here? Why does this question even come into mind? You know. Because we all want to be busy.

00:03:12 Henry Bowles: Yes, this this question is brilliant. It's a it's a time management productivity classic. I would keep in mind that I come at this from a unique angle. So I'm less interested in each of us and listeners, you being more productive or higher output because it's it's really easy. And I'm sure everyone who's listening knows this. To win a marathon or to win a sprint, or win a couple of sprint and then collapse in exhaustion. So short term performance, short term output is fairly easy to power through to make happen. What's difficult, though, is winning marathon after marathon. And so I come at this from a resilience perspective. I'm interested in how can we strengthen ourselves from the inside out, and how can we act in the world in a way where there's a positive feedback loop for our resilience, where we're both our actions are are reflecting our inner resilience and at the same time reinforcing it. So that's the key. So it's an inside out perspective. I come at this from where my goal is people being more resilient holistically. So it's not just productivity. So in terms of. In terms of real effectiveness real effectiveness effectiveness is always going to require. I mean doing more with less I think. And that means really ensuring that our actions and our execution and our focus is centered on the vital few, the few projects, the few tactics that will help realize our vision, help reflect our values, help us grow as human beings. And that ultimately, is what's going to reinforce our resilience. And so if we think of three kinds of motivation and I'll, I'll soften for this because I would love to hear your input. But we think of three kinds of motivation. There's fear, motivation or stick motivation or running away from something. There's desire or carrot motivation running towards something. Both of those are finite. They burn out. You can only berate yourself or berate other people for so long until their performance degrades because it exhausts them. Yep. Desire motivation or carrot motivation. We. The data shows that we overestimate the motivational power of material rewards. You can only get people so many raises, and it turns out that workers are more motivated by recognition by more intrinsic rewards than material rewards, which are of course, still important. But the third kind of motivation after fear, after desire. So after carrot after stick is internal is growth motivation intrinsic. Where I feel like I have a sense of agency, I feel like I have a locus of control. I'm living my values, living my goals. And that is what's most linked to our resilience, to our wellbeing. And so when we talk about productivity, I want listeners to ensure that what they're doing mostly is aligned with what's going. What they know at some fundamental level is going to make them grow.

00:06:39 Sana: And I love how you kind of, you know, I shouldn't say categorized, but how you have made it clear because, yes, the biggest motivation right now it's fear. It is fear. And then, of course, there's a desire with carrots and sticks. But and this, this kind of reminds me the Maslow's hierarchy system, like, you know, the top one, self-actualization or self-realization. That is something like that. I have to check, but that is something I believe it's there on the top. Um, and uh, time and again, and this is something that I've learned actually through podcasting, I wasn't having an iota of an idea about that. There is something called as agency, all I have been taught or I have learned is how I can have control of everything, or how at least I can get on that path to seek control of everything. But then, you know, through the experiences, somehow I have begun to realize that, you know, there are many things which are out of your control. And, uh, in pursuit of understanding that those things are out of your control, you kind of lose of the things that could be under your control.

00:07:55 Henry Bowles: That's a that's a brilliant point. That's an absolutely brilliant point. And so when we think about control we need as human beings, we do keep it keeping in mind, you know, I'm not a psychologist. I'm interested in human performance. I'm interested in resilience. We need a sense of control. The data shows that we need a sense of agency, a sense of that we have that we're not. I'll put it like this. I think that our anxiety, our unhappiness, increases to the degree to which we feel like we are reactive, ping pongs. And so it's no accident that and the data is really clear on this, that anxiety has spiked dramatically since the ubiquitousness of smart devices because it creates a lot of reactivity and a lot of stimuli that are stimuli and information that are ultimately outside of our control. And so that helps that helps increase anxiety. And so. It's it's always important for us as human beings to follow that that ancient stoic principle. I mean, we I think we need to return to this. And there's a reason that among business people today from Silicon Valley, any business hub people are now fixated. And this is not new, but they're fixated with stoic philosophy. And there's a reason for it because it's all about if you think about Epictetus key principle that your chief task in life is to separate the externals that you cannot control from what you can control. So focusing on those key controllables and the key controllables that will most make you grow, that are most aligned with your values. I mean, that is the secret sauce to high performance. And I think to to our resilience, to our well-being.

00:09:59 Sana: Definitely. And I want to bring in something, Henry. And especially when you mentioned about high performance. Now, I mean, we I mean, on the surface level, we say let's not compare ourselves with anyone else or but, you know, deep down, deep down and in this in fact, has happened with me as well. Like, you know, sometimes maybe I'm scrolling through, um, Facebook or maybe, you know, I would like to revisit in maybe my old college friend or school friend. I'm just seeing. Okay. Um. Great job. Like working in a huge company, having, you know, everything. Good house, car, family, lots of money. My inner. And this is not the inner self, but more like the inner critic inside me is like comparing myself. Okay, so now what have you achieved? Try to compare. You two were on the same levels. Maybe in your school days you were maybe, you know, um, you were performing better than this person, but how come this person has achieved more than you? And then I get into that full loop of, you know, like, wallow in that comparison, that judgement and then whole revisiting the past and lamenting on the decisions that I took. And it's a huge Demotivator like after that, if I sit on and I record a podcast, it would at least, you know, I would assess myself that in my tone, that despair, that, um, hopelessness is reflecting in some way or the other. I mean, my energy, my frequency level will go lot down, you know, my normal energy level. So what what you have to say about this.

00:11:43 Henry Bowles: I have a lot to say. I mean, my, my my feelings are a couple of things, keep in mind. And we know this cognitively. I don't think our systems have caught up yet because it still has a deleterious effect on our mental health. But keep in mind that when we peruse social media and see our friends and acquaintances and so forth, we're looking at advertisements of their lives. Really?

00:12:06 Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:12:07 Henry Bowles: So we know that. But I think that's important to keep in mind. Everyone should keep that in mind. I also think, you know, the mind is the mind functions via comparison. It slices and dices, it categorizes and it compares when we think about social comparison, upward comparison, when we think that people are somehow superior to us, it's not healthy. Downward comparison when we think that we're better than other people, that's a healthy either. I think my own feeling on self-esteem and self image is that it's kind of a trap. I think that you really can't perform your way. You can't hustle your way to self-esteem because the mind will always say, oh, there's someone out there who has more. Or there could be guilt. There can be all kinds of strange comparative narratives that come up when you try to hustle your way to self-esteem. I think it's ultimately a spiritual question. And the way I've resolved it for myself, and the way I would tell anyone, is every living being. And I don't just mean human being. Every living being is of infinite value. Period.

00:13:20 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.

00:13:22 Sana: There's no doubt. There's no doubt. Mm. Um, and, uh, you know, you talk a lot about, um, constraints that don't show up on calendars or KPIs, you know, things like even in fact, I haven't seen, especially even in workplaces. Also, you know, talking about this, I may be on the surface level once again. Um, there will be some workshops or activities, you know, just for the sake of having that checklist. But then things like identity pressure, fear of disappointing others, people pleasing or outdated self stories, you know, they wouldn't be covered, um, or they wouldn't show up actively. In your experience, Henry. Um, what what are the most common internal constraints that they actually limit, like quietly limit performance while people would still feel that, you know, they are busy, they are of relevance, they are adding some value or, you know, they are worth.

00:14:28 Henry Bowles: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. My my answer to this is that I do think it's nuanced, but I think that when we find ourselves in frenetic activity, when we're overcommitted, when we're super busy, when we're living like and feeling like those reactive ping pong balls as opposed to like, growth, true, truly goal oriented human beings, truly teleological human beings, you know, moving towards some end, that's important to us. It's aligned with our values. When we're not doing that, it's because we're not facing some internal constraint. Could be a variety of things. I think often when we're not living the Pareto principle, when we're not focusing on that top twenty percent of inputs that produce most of the outputs, when we're not doing that often, it's procrastination. Often the constraint is we're not working on the projects that are scariest, scariest because they're most linked with maybe our identity with with our perceived self-esteem, with our values. And so we turn away from that and we begin to become pleasers. We say yes to a thousand things. We say yes to every kind of new thing because we're not finishing those key projects, those key inputs that really move us forward. So I think procrastination is a big part of it. I think other internal constraints, I don't think this is going to surprise you or any of any of our listeners would be, you know, fear, fear of failure. I think that that's that's universal. We can play with it. We can teach ourselves that failure is not scary. That's part of learning process, that there's no success without failure. I mean, those of us who do sales, I do sales. I mean, every no is you're learning what isn't a match brings you closer to a yes every time when I give a talk and something doesn't work, it's great. It's feedback. My next talk is going to be even better. I'll hit that line better or drop that element or whatever. So failure is is there really is no success without failure. And so loosening our fear of failure I think is important. And I think there's fear of success too, that people feel feel undeserving and so forth. And so this drives us away from ourselves, away from our, I think, our deeper level of awareness, our wiser self. And it throws us out into the world, uh, into that reactive mode where we're where we start to overcommit and we do that frenetic, that frenetic activity that doesn't make us space as inner constraints. So I would always ask people, ask myself as well, because I fall into this with the with the best and worst of us, one hundred percent. If I'm overcommitting if I'm saying yes to a thousand, a thousand and one new things, what am what am I running away from? And I think that's an important first step. And just learn to practice awareness. It's always going to come back to awareness. And any way you get there with journaling, talking to friends, coaches, counselors, support groups, the whole gamut. Any way you can sharpen your awareness is going to serve you, and will help you begin to loosen those internal constraints that lead to that frenetic that that that the the lack of productivity ultimately.

00:18:05 Sana: And this word exactly. This word exactly came into my mind when you were just, um, you know, answering this, uh, Henry. And that once again made me recall a quick, um, not incident, but a kind of a moment of realization that I've had that, um, and it was a moment of appreciation for awareness and clarity. So, um, I think it was like two years back, um, when, you know, we all were kind of dealing with this super, super strange transition of moving from a Covid world to a post-Covid world, layoffs, and, you know, people working from homes and then fighting for, you know, I mean, it was a huge transition. I mean, almost every one of us, we have got affected, you know, with something or the other because of Covid. Yep. Um, and, um, many of my acquaintances, they were already focusing on, um, creating something of their own, exploring entrepreneurship, you know, maybe having their own startups and everything. And that is something I was also exploring. But then it kind of came into my mind that is entrepreneurship for everyone. Um, And, um, I kind of used to get judged by many, you know, for my own opinions that it may be not for everyone because it's it's a huge, huge it's a strange journey. It I mean, people say it's a lonely journey, but more than that, I think it's a very, um, challenging. It can be a very exciting journey. But then you have to know what you are signing up for because you would be vulnerable or prone to fail. And you have to learn from those failures. There's a lot of lot to risk in there. So I asked one of my school friend that, you know, um, why don't you go for entrepreneurship? And he just said simply, you know, I don't want to I'm happy with my nine to five. And this is something that works out for me and for my family, for my loved ones. Why would I, um, go for something which is uncertain? And I love, I love certainty, I love stability, I mean, how many people would say that today? You know, when it's kind of a trend that, you know, you start something of your own. Um, just to get some relevance on social media. Maybe that was a founder. I absolutely loved how he had his own clarity. I mean, not everyone would agree with him or with me. But then, at least for me, it was really, really a very good moment to understand that everybody has their own limitations or certainties or preferences. And someone who is aware about it, they may consciously take up a choice which hundreds of other people would take. But then there are people who would not have had that, you know, herd mentality.

00:21:11 Henry Bowles: Yes. Yes. Well, my insight on this is what's the first question when you meet with a financial advisor that they ask you, they're gonna they're gonna say what? They're gonna they're going to want to gauge your risk tolerance is there. Then. And there's no right answer. There's really no right answer. They're going to follow you. A good a good investment advisor or financial strategist is will say there's no right answer. It depends on your goals and it depends on personality wise, what level of risk or I would say what level of challenge or excitement are you willing to tolerate. And I think the question of career paths and entrepreneurship versus something that's maybe a little bit less less risky, less seemingly risky. Keeping in mind there aren't really any ultimate risks. We're all going to pass away, at least for this, for this lifetime. And, um, keeping that in mind that. With any career path, we need to become aware of what level of challenge and excitement and risk at this moment am I willing to take on? I would also add that I, I don't think personality is that fixed. I think that we can do a lot to reshape ourselves in a more positive way. My work is resilient. It presupposes that we can become more more resilient. I truly believe that I've seen it in my own life, and I've seen it certainly with others. And I think we know that just anecdotally, we know that through history. And so in terms of the entrepreneurship or a more, uh, a maybe more, more traditional career path, it really comes down to awareness of where am I right now, personality wise, and where do I want to be?

00:23:09 Sana: Exactly, exactly. And, uh, before we conclude, Henry, um. Um, performance, uh, and communication, because your background in communication is fascinating here, like, from what we have seen, how do poor communication patterns. Um, especially, you know, unspoken expectations or, um, you know, how how they can become performance constraints that people try to solve by working harder instead of speaking clearer. Because and I'm just not only putting in putting this in terms of workplace or, or, um, organizations, but in our personal lives. Also, like in families, there can be poor communication. And because of that, there can be there may be years and years of unwanted, um, traumatic experiences or, um, you know, situations where you cannot see any solutions out there just because there's a poor communication issue.

00:24:15 Henry Bowles: Brilliant point tonight. Yeah, I think this is ubiquitous. We all experience it and know it from our personal lives, from our work lives. From the lives of others. That, and the first thing I'll say here is that one of my very favorite authors is named David Allen. He's a productivity expert, kind of a philosopher, where he wrote Getting Things Done. Probably my favorite book. And he says, don't think that that conversation goes away just because you're not having it. And when we're not finding a fruitful way to confront, to have those conversations explicitly in a way that's elegant, in a way that helps others around us feel safe and relaxed, if we're not doing that, all kinds of negative results ensue. Negative psychological results us. This goes back to our committing the things that we really should not be committing to. It kind of all kinds of unintended and negative results. And so as someone I mean, communication skills have been in some sense the focus of my life. I mean, I have two PhDs in in letters in the humanities, in, in literature and my hobby. And now my job, my hobby was Toastmasters. And I've done a lot of improv. And now my job is as a professional speaker. And I just think that communication skills are everything, and they're always going to be a work in progress. What I would say is that it's really important to develop the skills to have those crucial conversations and to levels. First, we need the vocabulary, we need people, we need that coaching so that we under and there's so many good books on this. I mean, learning that when we when we're confronting someone not to say you not to use language that's going to put them in a defensive state. Not to say you made me feel this or you did XYZ, or you always do this, or they make these little mistakes or these big mistakes, like not focusing on the problem at hand and saying, well, three years ago you did this and then it becomes kind of an omnibus criticism of someone, and that's never going to help. So there's that that outer level of communication skills. And for that there's coaching. There's books that will give you the language you need to have these crucial conversations. That's level one. Level two, the internal work I I'm a big Michael Singer fan. Michael Singer says essentially when you're triggered. When you're in that reactive mode, you really should not speak from that place being triggered. And so when when we feel protective and unsafe and unsettled or uncentered, we are going to elicit that in others, emotions are extremely contagious. And so it's crucial that we develop that, that awareness of our state of our emotions so that we can go into these conversations from a place of centeredness, from a place of I want to make this better for all of us. We're all in this together. And so those two levels, it's always a work in progress. But I would encourage your listeners to go deeper. And I know we have finite time here. Go deeper with those two levels. Get those scripts on the outer level, the right language to have crucial conversations and then develop that more that more internal reflective skill of knowing where you are and how to get to where you want in order to get to bring the best out of yourself and to bring the best out of others. So that in any kind of conflict you can move forward in a, in a in a way that strengthens the relationship. I love what Stephen Covey says. He says that that relationship tensions or relationship, he calls them trust. Withdrawals are actually opportunities with the right perspective and action to strengthen those relationships, to reinvest into relationships. And so come at it from that perspective. And it's true. It's absolutely true.

00:28:21 Sana: And I think it once again connects with the the carrots and the sticks and the internal work that you mentioned. I think I believe, you know, of course we are. We have um, we have books, we have people, we have visionaries. But more than that, I think that awareness and that acceptance, that acknowledgement that, yes, I need I need rework on this. I need to work on my communication. And this is not about how, um, beautifully you are pronouncing or how many good English words you are able to say. But it's more than that. Like how are how you are able to not react, but articulate because not every person will react similar to what you are saying. You know, you I mean, this is something that I have learned that, you know, you have to understand, you know, the language that you're speaking because not everyone will take it in the same way as you would expect. And then, you know, you'll end up saying that I had to say what I wanted to say. I don't care what the other person thinks about it.

00:29:29 Speaker 4: I think you put it brilliantly.

00:29:30 Henry Bowles: Yes. And that what you're speaking of is really listening skills. So when we're talking to people, we never want to talk at them. We're so. And that's what that's the worst. When people are really triggered, we it's a barrage of words at the other person that is not going to help anyone, least, least of all the person who's triggered and who's spouting off. We need to listen. We need to have sensory acuity. How are our words landing? Are they landing? Are we being understood? And for that again, you'll feel it if you're present. If you're listening, you'll see it. We have humans, all humans. Like any other animal. We're very emotionally intelligent, attuned to other people are feeling so long as we're there in the room with them and not lost in our heads or in our anger And then develop those. This brings us back to that kind of that more surface level develop those. The the ability to check in. Does this make sense? Does everything I'm saying. How are you feeling about this right now? Get the language to check in with them so you'll feel it emotionally. You'll you'll sense it through awareness. And then you'll also want those skills to check in with them verbally.

00:30:40 Speaker 3: Well, exactly.

00:30:42 Sana: And this is so, so much super, super relevant in today's day and age. You know, when, um, we, we all kind of get triggered more than our physical circumstances or surroundings, uh, by the digital stuff that is all happening. So. Yeah.

00:31:04 Speaker 4: It's true. It's true. And I would just say.

00:31:06 Henry Bowles: That when we anger and outrage are addictive.

00:31:13 Speaker 3: They are.

00:31:13 Henry Bowles: They are, as we all know. And so that's part of what sucks us into these these digital rabbit holes. And on some level, part of us finds it really exciting. It's really stimulating to be outraged and angry all the time. Well, a couple of things. Often it leads us to be exhausted or to focus on a lot of variables that are completely outside of our control, or to take action that ultimately isn't effective anyway. That's just going to, to to breed more reactivity in others. So none of that really serves us our, our higher good or the good of of all of us. And I really think we need to come at this always from we're all in this together. When people behave in a way we don't like, when people behave in a negative fashion. Keep in mind that it's from lack of awareness. It's because they're in pain. And so we need to have that that compassionate perspective and to be aware of in our day to day lives, our own resilience, our own well-being. Is what I'm reading or watching or saying really serving me? Is it? Is it? Is it making me stronger, or is it making me more indignant, more angry, feel ultimately more powerless? That's a question we need to ask ourselves constantly.

00:32:32 Speaker 3: Absolutely.

00:32:33 Sana: Absolutely brilliant. Um, Henry, uh, before we wrap up, uh, I wish we could have gone on and on, but, uh, if I, if our listeners, uh, they would like to further connect with you, seek some more wisdom, and maybe they have their own thoughts. Um, and they would like to share their own thoughts and opinions with you, how they can reach out to you. Henry.

00:32:56 Henry Bowles: I've. I've been absolutely delighted to have been here to talk with you. So far, I've learned a lot. I've enjoyed it. It's just been an amazing conversation. Yeah, it really has. And I'd love to hear from from any of our listeners. So the best place to find me is on the internet. Henry Bowles. That's my website. You feel free and you can contact me. Contact information is there. You can email me at Henry at Henry Bulls.com. And I'd love to hear from you.

00:33:25 Sana: Super awesome listeners. You all know I'll definitely have all the links mentioned in the show notes. Find them. Attach along with this episode on whichever platform you're listening to the Mindful Living podcast. And uh, if today's conversation has stirred something in you, I shouldn't say trigger something within you, but stirred something, maybe some part of it has connected or resonated with you. I want to say this gently. You're not broken. You're not lazy. You don't need to earn rest by exhausting yourself. Busyness can hide many things, but then it also hides possibility. And when we begin to see the real constraints. Internal. Emotional. Relational. We don't lose performance. We reclaim it. And Henry, thank you so, so much for bringing like rigor energy but humanity to this conversation. Deeply, deeply crowning. Really. It was really, really fun having this conversation with you.

00:34:33 Henry Bowles: I've enjoyed it. It's been an absolute honor.

00:34:37 Sana: And to all the listeners, um, okay, here's what I'm going to put here. Maybe the question this week isn't how do I get more done, but what I am responding to and is it still true? I think next time this is a mindful living. Take care of your mind. It is where everything begins. And I'm your host, Sana. I'll catch you in the next episode of The Mind. Thank you so much.