All black women that I'm coaching or working with that I'm like, you need to have a kitchen cabinet of mentors. They are not transactional relationships. They are real meaningful relationship that when done well are a two-way street that you pour into and they should be with a diverse set of stakeholders. Right? Even amongst people of color, there are people with different skill sets and lived experiences. So because they're gonna pull different, you know. I have multiple black women that I go, they are not the same black woman. They do not have the same experience.

We'll discuss race and how it plays a factor and how we didn't even talk about this topic because we were afraid.

A Black Executive Perspective.

Welcome to the Black Executive Perspective Podcast, a safe space where we discuss all matters relating to race, especially race in corporate America. I'm your host, Tony Tidbit.

And I'm your co host, Chris P. Reed.

And we are live at WNHU, the University of New Haven podcast studio. We want to thank them for our partnership. I think the students are going to be back when about a month from here, a couple of weeks, Noel next week, next week, they're going to be back running around looking to get enlightened. So we're looking forward to seeing them, but we want to thank them. Go chargers.

We also want to thank our partners at CodeM Magazine, whose mission is saving the black family by first saving the black man. That is CodeM Magazine. Check them out. CodeM Magazine, 2Ms. com.

Yes, definitely check them out. So today we are joined by Candice C. Jones, president of the Public Welfare Foundation to explore her leadership journey and the unique challenges faced by black women in leadership roles. We'll delve into systemic obstacles, the significance of building supportive networks, and the crucial role of mentorship in fostering success. Candice will provide personal insights and effective strategies that empower Black women to thrive as leaders and discuss how we can better support and promote Black women in these positions.

Before we go too deep into this, Tony, let me just give a little background on Candice. And so therefore we have a baseline of who she is and what she's about. So Candice joined the Public Welfare Foundation in Washington, DC, as its president and CEO in 2017. Previously, she had served as a senior advisor at Chicago CRED, an organization that focuses on gun violence in Chicago. In that role, she worked on securing greater investments for violence intervention, Programs as an alternative to criminal justice systems prior to that role Candice serves as director of juvenile justice for the state of illinois where she primarily responsible Was responsible for establishing reforms that reduced the number of youths in the state custody She also served as a white house fellow managing a portfolio within the U.S. Department of education that included developing educational strategies for correctional institutions In this role, she shepherded a plan to re to reinstate federal pale grants for youth and adults in state custody earlier in her career Candice served as a program officer with the MacArthur foundation where she managed a grant portfolio, uh portfolio focused on decreasing racial and ethnic disparities in juvenile in the juvenile justice system and Improving the quality of defense afforded to indignant youth indigent indigent youth. Excuse me Candice received her jd You From New York University School of Law and her VA from Washington University in St. Louis. Candice, with all these other things going on, welcome to a black executive perspective podcast.

How you doing Chris? It's good to

see you too, my girl. You're like, you're looking so lovely and awesome. And you know, I, I was looking at our clock because, uh, all the accolades that Chris was going through, I thought we're going to run out of time here. Right. There's going to be, there's going to be a quick podcast. Hello. How you doing? Everything but a Heisman Trophy.

Can you go through it? I said a

lot of things, a lot of hours. So, so let me, let me ask you a question though. Um, tell us about where you are currently and a little bit about your family.

Yeah. I'm actually living right now in Washington DC. It's where the foundation is based, but I have to say it because I'm born and raised in Chicago. And when you are from the shy, it's always in you. You just got to name it out of respect. And my family's still there. I live in DC with my partner and his daughter. And so just, you know. A regular black girl.

Oh, I love that, right? So, look, you went from Chi town, right? Now you're in the government area, right? That's right. You know what I'm saying? I mean, that's a big move though, right? But let me ask you this. How do you like being in D. C.?

I like it. I do. It's a beautiful city. It was a big transition to move from Chicago. You know, you get in a place and you just, it's your whole world. And I had lived in some big cities because I lived in New York. Uh, but DC is really beautiful. It's smaller, uh, but all the investment in parks and public spaces. It's really gorgeous. It's nice.

Yeah, I mean, listen, I love D. C. I've been down there numerous of times. The only thing I don't like is the traffic, right? Because it can be, you know, I mean, the beltway can be insane.

Well, I just feel like it wasn't built for the population that it has. You have all these tiny little streets with two way traffic. I'm like, uh uh, y'all. And people with these very suspect driving skills.

You, we hear that. Well, no matter where, nobody, where somebody live at, right? Right. You can be in Texas, they can't drive here.

You ain't

lying. You can be in California. They can't drive here. All right, so I'm looking to move to the state where they can drive, all right, because I in Connecticut, they can't drive. Right?

Where is it, Tony? It's like, what is not making, why they not making, uh, right hand turns from the left lane.

gotta be Montana. Got to be Montana where you got room to roam.

Exactly. Right. And the cattle might be saying they can't drive there either. Right. But all serious, we got some serious stuff that we want to talk about today. So we want to ask you, so why did you want to come on a black executive perspective podcast to talk about this topic?

Cause you guys are creating a platform for important conversations. These conversations need to exist. There needs to be a space where we talk about. Leadership and then through extension leadership challenges that black executives face. And so I want to be a part of an important conversation that you guys are having it any way that I can. That's why I wanted to come on.

Well, number one, you fit the bill because that's exactly what we have. And that's exactly what we do. So listen. I see you, you chomping, you leaning into the screen, so you must be ready to go at it. You ready to talk about it, my friend?

I'm ready to do it.

All right, let's talk about it.

So, you know, interestingly enough, every superhero, based off, you know, your bio and the little I know of yous thus far, has an origin story, right? So, can you give me a little bit of game about, you know, I'm from, I'm from Peoria, so can you give me a little game about your journey? I'm from Detroit, you know what I'm saying? First

of all, I need y'all not to bury the importance of this game. Come on now, all this Midwestern love. Not Peoria, not right up the street. I need y'all to give me the important parts right out of the gate. Absolutely. You

wanted that authentic, you know, that feel right off the bat, right?

Good with

your people.

It's good with your people. But, uh, so how did this all begin? You know, where did you realize that this is ultimately where my path is headed and what I'd like to do is eventually become The president of public welfare foundation,

you know, I grew up on, uh, and you'll know this, Chris, I grew up on the West side of Chicago. If you're not from Chicago, it's sort of like more amorphous, but it's sort of like, uh, black. Overly impoverished super. It was really forgotten about. It was the target for the war on drugs when I was coming up in the 80s and 90s, grew up there and had a big family. You know, my family came up from Alabama to great migration, like all of us, Detroit, correct? Correct. Alabama. Yeah, correct. We came up, had a big family there. And I just saw a lot of my cousins, a lot of loved ones getting caught up in the system, people that I knew love, good kids, and I, even before I think I had words for it in my mind, I formed this idea that if there is a system designed to attack these people, Then something about the system is flawed and that's how I knew I wanted to be a lawyer. I wanted to have the tools really just to protect my loved ones early on. And I think in the original seeds of how I ended up doing what I do today, that was what was happening. And I just went on to law school and sort of ended up here.

Wow. That is awesome. How did, so look, You know, and I'm just, you know, I didn't grow up on the west side of Chicago, but I grew up on the west side of Detroit. Right. And I can definitely, I can emulate, I can see exactly what you saw, you know, out of your living room window. Right. So, and friends of ours getting caught up that were very talented. Right. That could have been anything. Right. I mean, anything. Right. But, you know, the seeds of prosperity wasn't there. To be a lawyer. Somebody's got to put that in your head. Okay? Because, you know, a lot of times we, we, if we don't see it. Right. We can't become it. Right. Right. And so I want to ask you, what was a big influence, you know, growing up in an area where there wasn't, you didn't see a lot of opportunity. You didn't see a lot of people that maybe was a lawyer or a doctor. So tell us about who inspired you, who put that seed of that, that spark in your eye for you to go out and become a lawyer and take it to the next level.

I will be honest with you. It's interesting because I don't think people believe this. There is so much to be said for black representation, right? So I came up in a time when we had a different world. Whatever your sort of like politics or feelings about it in the Cosby show, right? I wanted to be Not the actress, Felicia Rashad, but I want it to be Claire Hanks Huxtable, that smart black female lawyer. And it's like some of those seeds and influences early on, I think really shaped me. And then I had teachers and counselors. who were very early on, like, you could do anything, just keep reading, keep your nose in the books, and these are the types of things that you could do. But when there wasn't that immediate representation of all the possibilities, seeing those images of Black people doing well in movies and television shows and theaters, it created some seeds of all the possibilities that were out there.

Wow, and you know, what's interesting, Is that you, you went, you went into the character versus being an actor or actress or stuff of that nature. So those roles where they were doctors or, or, or, you know, lawyers and stuff to that nature, even though it was a show, right. You saw that as a possibility for you. And then that inspired you to say, this is what I want to do.

That's exactly right. I saw that representation of a smart black woman. Who carried herself well, who knew things, could answer questions, could take on things. And I said, it's not the, it's not the playing at that that I want to do. It's the actual being that.

I didn't realize that. You know, it was outside of our community that, that kids were having issues and things of that nature. I thought it was just about us and things like that. Like maybe that was her caseload, but then when I got older and of course now here in Dallas, I am a, a, uh, child appointed advocate. And so I work with CPS

and

you realize that it's the majority of the children that are affected, neglected, and are in the system. Are of minority status. And so when did you realize that it was more disproportionately something that was affecting you and your community, but it also was something that resonated far and wide.

Yeah. You know, it's so many ways. I feel like the first buzz I'll never get being in high school, big, big, big black public high school. Uh, it was like almost 3000 kids. And I, we were coming back from a field trip one day. Uh, be in. Came back from a field trip and they put us in the teacher's lounge. You know, you are high school. You'll never go in the teacher's lounge. I don't put kids in the teacher's lounge, right? It's a sacred space for the teachers. They put us in the teacher's lounge and said, you guys just have to stay in here. And then they locked us in there. And we were in that lounge for probably like two hours. And we were like, what's going on? Like what's happening. And we realized that they were running drug dogs through the school and like searching people's lockers. And the next day, like hundreds of people were expelled. And I remember just in that moment, to your point of like having this moment of being like, now I didn't have a comparative analysis. I didn't have like some data report that says, oh, they not doing this at Nutria, but even at that point in my life, I was like, Okay. They're not doing this at a different school, like this is not okay. Everything about it just felt wrong, the way it was done, the lack of information, the lack of information, the parents. And I'm like, they're just not doing this somewhere else. And I feel like that was like a real racial awakening for me. And it's something that still stays with me to this day.

Right, right, right. You know, you said 3000 students, um, at the high school. Okay. And I, you know, growing up in Detroit, I tell my daughters, right? Because we live in a town. I think their high school population is 600.

The whole school,

the whole school, right? And in Detroit, they were like, I think 20, 25 high schools. All right. And it was 3000 students. Okay. And think about it. And in some classes, you had 40. Okay. Forty something kids in one class. Yeah. How is everybody learning? Yeah, okay. They're not. All right. They're not if you're especially you sitting in the back you survive All right, because the other kids are smacking on the back of the head and they're doing all these other things And and it's just just being in that environment

Yeah,

doesn't it's not inducive for kids to learn right? And so and hearing that story it reminds me, you know, we had something similar like that Knowing that that was a racial awakening for you You Did it inspire you? Cause look, you grew up in a, in a area that the majority of people probably were black. And then you didn't see anything until you probably went to college. So speak a little bit about that as you came out of Chicago, when you went to college, and then all of a sudden, now you're dealing with a lot of diversity that you didn't deal with as growing up in, in the West side of Chicago.

Yeah. You know, what's so interesting too, Chicago is one of the most, uh, it, it Detroit segregated, one of the most segregated cities in America by design. You know, the Midwest, we sort of like mastered redlining really early. So communities like Chicago, so you're right. I managed to grow up in a city. And frankly, the interesting thing about Chicago is racially super diverse. You know, we had a lot of Puerto Rican people, a ton of Polish people, more Polish people in Chicago. There are more Polish people in Chicago. It's the biggest population outside of Poland. It was like tons of different cultures, Italian communities, but they didn't mix. Everybody stayed in their neighborhood is extremely segregated. And so I did, I lived my whole life and I thought we owned the whole world, especially because I remember being, I did, I did. Listen, I will tell you, I remember being young in Chicago. Harold Washington was mayor. Okay. Right. Jesse Jackson was doing operation push. And we had the nation of Islam. Like I was like, Oh, the whole world is black. We all, we run everything. But then you're right. Go off to college. I went to Wash U. In St. Louis, just going to St. Louis was like a real awakening because St. Louis is technically, you know, Missouri is the Midwest, but it becomes very Southern when you get, you know, when you get down state, going to school in Missouri, you know, and there's the It was a very different school. I mean, I think it was like a 10%, less than 10 percent of the kids were black. Very few. Um, it wasn't a very racially diverse school and a lot of the kids there were not, they were affluent. You know, it was a lot of money and it was different. I went there because my older brother actually had a brother that was three years older than me. We're super close. He was really struggling. He was the oldest, had spent his whole life in Black America, went down to college and was sort of like really struggling. In that environment, because all of a sudden you're aware, you know, this is to your point earlier, Chris, of all the things that you hadn't gotten and that these kids have had their whole life taken for granted. And the reason I went to the school is because my mom was like, you gotta go down there and you gotta get my baby out of there. He's struggling. So she was like, you, I wanted to go to Howard. I had grown up watching a different world. She was like, no, you want to Wash U. So my, you make sure my baby graduates. And I ended up there so that we could be there together. Okay. But it was night and day and it was really just like, I think, and it was interesting watching my brother's experience where I think he was really struggling with this idea of like, they've had all these things that we never had. And I lived the same experience, but my idea was like, Oh, I was like, they've had all these things we, we never had. And we are ending up at the same starting line in a race. Right. In my mind, he saw it as a deficit and I saw it as an asset. Right. Because it was like, I was like, if we've ended up in this same principal position and we've come through all the stuff we've already gone through, I know that just means we can run harder. And I, in my mind, I was just sort of like, I can dust these kids like, it's going to be nothing, you know? And so, but he saw it's so much of, um, it can really be different from lived, uh, lived experience of individuals because we really both experienced that transition in different ways.

It's amazing that you say that because I live that in reverse. Uh, my daughter goes to North Park University in Chicago, right? On North side. I

love that. And

so, and so we, you know, she grew up and we had more things than I had when I was growing up, but when I got there and this kid's in. And all of a sudden it's tucked away and it's so quaint. It don't even seem like you in the city anymore. And it's, you know, you don't even realize you showed up at school. The Uber driver's like, we're here. Like, Oh, did you go past some bushes? And it, and then, and then it just opens up, right. You know, uh, grand buildings, everything. And the first question I asked her was, do you feel like you can compete here? And she was like, Oh yeah, yeah. It's one dude that was homeschooled. He really smart. But other than that, that's all I need to hear. She's, she's about to be a senior this year, you know, molecular biology major, but the moral of the story is I was concerned because I knew I did. Okay. Right. But I ain't do like these people, folks like, like But when she said, yeah, I can compete here, it was kinda like what you said when you got the, you know, to the loo like, man, I, I'm, I got there. I could do this and I can swim and save a life, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. To swim, to save you. But that's beautiful. That's a beautiful situation. How you got there? How did you translate that into realizing I can only, I can compete here. 'cause I want her to do the same thing. I would love her to follow in your footsteps and the idea of I can not only survive here. But I can turn this into a thriving mechanism, and then I can actually lead here at some point. Right, right, right, right.

I think so much of it is sort of like, and this is a part of the conversation about being a Black executive. We are going to come into a situation with a lot of things stacked against us, like a lot of odds and so much of it is whether or not we're going to internalize that as sort of like our deficiencies, or actually, when you're calculating that math, say the thing that is the truth, which is that with everything that's been set up against us. You know, in a work situation, in an educational situation, if we're ending up principally at the same part, like, starting spot as somebody else with, uh, a lot more privilege, society would like us to believe that that means that they're going to dust us there at a deficit. But if you have had nothing but headwinds the entire way, it ended up in that same spot, who worked harder? You worked harder. Who's got to be the stronger runner, the stronger pacer, the stronger performer? And if we can just get our leaders and our individuals to be able actually to acknowledge that reality, They know that it's really, that they are already the stronger performer and that it allows you to sort of like position yourself in those settings to be like, nah, if I got here with you, like I got this, like, you know, really, if you're standing in a ring, I'm probably not even in your weight class.

Right. Right. You know, it reminds me of the, um, you ever see the movie, um, what's the movie? A Vietnam movie with my brother. Um, Charlie Sheen was in it. Who platoon? You ever seen the movie Platoon? Yes. Okay. Up there. And what was the brother's name? The brother, um, I forget his name right. And, but Net Net, uh, um, uh, Charlie Sheen said something and then my man said, look, all you gotta do is get outta here. Right? And the rest of your life is gravy, Right. Every day it's gravy. Right. And, and, you know. Let me throw something else at you though. Let me let me let me come from the opposite side of that. Okay Um, like when I came into corporate america, I didn't walk in like this is against me Right. I walked in Like number one, I believed I I I rated with everybody and I had a mindset of growing Okay.

Yeah,

so I didn't come in, you know thinking this that I came in like I'm gonna, I'm gonna come in here and I'm gonna rise up through the ranks and I'm gonna kick butt now. Along the way, all of a sudden, I start, people start throwing curveballs at me, or people start, I remember this one, and people get jealous, they see that you're on a, on a track, and then your superiors like you, and they see that you're This person who just came in this door and I've been here for years, this person's coming in and immediately because they got a one track mind, he's personal, but not only that, he works hard. This and that whole nine yards. Then they try to handcuff. They try to throw a tank trap in front of you that you can get tripped up on. Right? And it's, it's, it's, it's, um, and it's not, um, it's not, what's the, what's the word I want you. It's, it's, it's subtle. Yeah. Okay. It's not like they come out and say, yeah, I'm gonna mess you up. All right. They do little bit. So talk a little, because I think that's a lot of the things that we deal with in terms of we, we have these huge ideas. We have the talent, we have the brain power. Okay. We come in figuring that, okay, yeah, I went through all this stuff, but I'm here now and I'm going to rise up and I'm going to be senior vice president. I'm gonna be chief this. I'm going to do that. And then you start trying to navigate and then you feel hamstrung. Okay. I love to hear your thoughts on that.

That's absolutely right. I mean, it becomes like death by a thousand pinpricks, right? Because what happens is you go in, you're putting in there. You're not just putting in good work. You're double timing it, right? You're killing it. You're staying late, but you realize it's sort of like, you know, It's almost like what you realize, especially in corporate America and professional settings, there's an above board game and then there's a below board game. And the below board game is really sort of like a lot of mental mastinations people. And I remember in 1 of my early professional settings, sort of being in this very conservative environment, doing good work, trying to be personable, professional, and just sort of having, um. It wasn't a diverse setting and having what felt like almost a lot of little mind game things. You know, people would say little stuff. It was basically like a setting full of microaggressions. And I, um, it can be difficult to navigate. I remember talking to my mother about it, uh, at the time and sort of, cause I had a mentor, one of my law school mentors at the time was a white male. And he was like, that sounds like a lot of mind games. And he's like, you're smart. You know how to play a mind game. So just. You know, out think them and sort of be along, be, be ahead of them in it. And I remember telling my mother that and her saying a thing that stays with me to the today, which is, she was like, I raised you to be a person of a certain kind of character and. That character is not one that sort of does microaggressions and plays mind games, even when you can see people doing them. So like, so one thing I want you to hold as you navigate this environment is how you actually stay true to the person you were raised to be and sort of it. So this goes to the point of like, how do you stay authentically who you are? Do you play the game? And I think it's really important, you know, in my experience, it's important to stay true to who you are. And I think one of the ways to do it, which in, in that setting, and this was really early in my career, so I think the more seniority you have, you know, you can get in a position where you can sort of relax into yourself more. Nobody gets that at the beginning.

No,

right. You just knew you, everybody's building credibility, every man for himself, no matter what school you went to grades, you got, you still, you know, you showing up day one, you knew. And I remember, you know, at that sort of junior point in my career, just sort of being like, Naming the thing really clearly to a supervisor that was like, it kind of, in the most respectful way, like, I know what you're doing, I'm not going to do it with you. Just sort of know, like, and it wasn't like big flares. I've never been a super emotional person. Like I'm very like, matter of fact, but just sort of being like. In these instances, I'm totally cognizant of what you're doing and I'm just not going to do it with you. And I just, I'll never get the way she looked just sort of like one, she didn't, you know, there was nothing she could say. Cause she, she felt, I think really shut down one cause she knew she was doing it. And two, I think because she was off put by frankly, how like mature I was at that point in my career to be like. You know, so stop now, I'd like to say that she stopped doing it, but part of it is that people who are capable of that are, you know, in the distinct way that I wasn't raised that way, they just are, you know, so she couldn't totally stop doing it. But I think she was, she was a little more reserved, a little more guarded because she knew I was going to call her on it. At that point also, it's like I had a JD in law. I'm like, girl, I think both of us ought to be aware that I can document Stop being silly, you know? So it's like, I think it sort of like dialed her back in a way that did make her a sort of an overall better colleague, but it kind of put her on edge about how um, she was acted and she was really clear on the boundaries in the way that I was gonna carry myself. I was gonna carry myself in a way that was respectful and true to who I was. And I think it forced other people in that environment to respect me. And interestingly enough, to this day, I have a better relationship with. The woman who was her supervisor that I do with the woman who was supervising me, I think in large part, because she also respected me a great deal for how I handled that. And so I do think there are opportunities to navigate those settings, but it's not fair. It's ridiculous. It's so much, you know, it's so much, it's just sort of like a manifestation of like racialized terror and human nature, because it's like, you can't let somebody else just sort of live. Right. And we see that come out a lot in work environments. Right.

Right for you. Let me ask you this because it appears as if you always had a lot of audacity that you, you always went in kind of knowing this and that. And so, you know, and I know Tony and I've talked about this. He came in guns blazing and thinking I can do this, not do that. And I came in hoping that they didn't realize I wasn't from nowhere and hoping that, like, I came in under the radar. I'm gonna keep getting these checks until they catch up to me. Right. And so I came in quiet and observant. And so the route that I took was figuring out, stay behind the scenes, be very covert, understand how the game is played here, how things work here, you know, and then incrementally get to those places where I am, uh, evolving to those positions because I, I match all of the criteria. And then there was a, uh, an epiphany that occurred or transition point where now, as you said, when you had Joe JD, they can't tell you a damn thing. I got to the point where I was like, okay, I'm good. Now I can be me all of a sudden. They're like, where did all this come from? Too late, too late. You didn't let me in. Um, was there a point in time in your evolution where you felt like the school, my school should have been better. My gradeship, was there ever that in your spirit that you felt like you needed to compensate? For being a black female in a very predominant. You just didn't have that level, huh? You just may have never had that. And

I'll tell you, like, my mother will tell you today. She was like, you have a confidence that neither your looks or intellect justify.

I got to think that one through.

That's a

deep one right there.

No. See, no. And I tell people, like, because I talk to my partners about like, imposter syndrome and stuff. If you're in my office, I'm sitting in my office right now, and you look around, you guys can't see it here. I am surrounded by images of black women. And right above my head, I don't know if you can see it, there's an image. It's my, uh, it's my grandmother. It's her picture. She sits right behind me. I tell everybody it's because she has my back. I always have these women here in my workspaces to almost fortify me. And part of the reason I do it is because of the imposter stuff. You know, I'm always like, Black women in particular, Black people, we need to take up our space. We need to take up our seat. I don't just sit here on the strength of my own work. I sit here on the strength of the sacrifices they all made and never got to enjoy. And that's why I think imposter syndrome, just this knowing of us and not knowing ourselves and our history becomes so important. Cause it's like, no, I'm not going to lament whether or not I'm good enough. Cause whether or not I'm good enough, she was good enough and she didn't get her seat. So I'm going to take up my space, right. And I'm going to take, and if it's 10 of them. That means I'm the little space that I'm given is like taken up in spades, you know, and I think that's so important for me. And that's always been something that I carry because so much has been stripped in labor and intellect and credit from our community, just like that full realization of that, I think, has always really like the, the audacity of that. Has always been in me. And so I feel like I carried myself with like, nah, I think I, I think I have the hubris of all these women that nobody ever acknowledged properly.

Let me ask you this. So number one, that is awesome. And that's something that woman or man, Black man should have. Right. One of the challenges, and I love to hear your point of view on this. And let's just use your Chicago, West side of Chicago example, where you're with a ton of people that look like you.

Yeah,

and then you go somewhere where you're one of a hundred Okay And you may be the only i've been at companies, you know places. I was the only black person. Okay Okay, so from that standpoint You want to come in and be like, yeah, you know, I, I'm standing on shoulders or other people. Right. But at the end of the day, you're by yourself. Okay. You don't have, you know, there's not people that you can see. Right. And you walked in the door with that confidence, you believe in yourself, however, those thousand little cuts, you know, they start a road in your console. How, what advice, what would you tell, especially, and we're talking, we're talking about regardless black executives, but let's speak, let's go strictly to black women. How do they stay confident? Okay. When little by little people picking on them. And they're, they're, they're, look, they're, they're knocking away like gnats.

Okay,

but I'm sorry, at some point, that does affect you. Okay? And maybe you have the pictures around that you can look at when it's affecting you. And you can say, you know what? Maybe this is my, uh, I wouldn't say this is where my area where I get my strength, but I would love to hear how they can be able to still keep that confidence in spite of all the turbulence that they may deal with. When there's not a lot of people that look like them.

Yeah. My first, my first professional job, I went to a law firm, I, in my class, and it was three of us in my hiring class coming out of law school, me and another young woman were the first black people that our firm, uh, had ever hired into a law school class. So then when we got there, it was us, maybe one other lady. They had some, some folks that were like, um, You know, executive assistants and stuff, but they didn't have lawyers and we sort of knew going in that that was That's going to be difficult, right? Because so much of success, so much of success in any job is mentorship, right? How you get on a good case, how you get the client development, how you, that's all about somebody who already has the access and power saying, I see myself in you, and so I'm going to bring you along and sort of pull you along. It's very hard for somebody to see themselves in you. If they don't look like you, right? Right? This goes to sort of like, what's your golf course? I remember them having events for us that summer being like, Oh yeah, we're going to go to a Cubs game. I hate baseball. And if I'm a root for a team, it wasn't going to be the Cubs. It's sort of like, you know, but those are events where you're sort of like, you know, you're at the field in the game and you're developing the relationship with the partner. Who's going to be the mentor that you follow throughout your career for the next 10 years. It can be really difficult. One of the reasons why I like to put the stuff in my office in those seconds is because I feel like we have to fortify walking into those settings. One of the things is that. You have like, I knew going into that setting that I was going into a hostile environment and I don't mean it like the people were meet, they were obviously recruiting me. They were as sweet as they can be, but you know, when you're signing up to be the first, right, you're a test case. There is no cultural competence there. Even if they, they're trying, they, they're going to really, they're going to struggle and each one of their struggle is going to be played out on you. People are going to say things to you. I remember having a partner, a woman kept saying, this is my associate. This is my associate. And a white male said to her, stop calling her your associate. Yeah. She's not owned by you. When you were referring to her to people in this organization, you could say it's my colleague.

And that

was sort of like a lesson. And so part of what I was trying to do at each one of those settings, and this is what I say to other women, I had no illusions about whether or not that was going to be a setting where I found my lifelong mentors, I did not. But I definitely had a kitchen cabinet of mentors that I had taken from law school, women of color that I was calling on while I was in that setting to say, okay, this is something that I'm addressing day to day at work. How do you think I'm navigating that? Right? Like I was fortified myself through images in that space, but also fortified myself outside that space with people who I knew were supportive of me because they had lived through all the things I was living through in that moment and could help say, okay. Here are some things that you could think about doing. This is the way that you could position yourself. And they said things to me that I thought were not that obvious, which is find mentors Like you don't have there. There is no sort of like senior, uh equity black female partner black partner period So that means that you're gonna have to find mentorship in an unlikely space And this is why it's important to say you can find mentors and so then i'm being mentored by a white male, right? You I don't know who's more surprised in those moments, him or me, but actually you learn a great deal in that mentorship exchange to one, because you learn the audacity of what he'd asked for that a black person would never be capable of, right? What he will demand and what they'll demand much earlier in their career than you will. And so you're right. It's like, you still are dealing with those microaggressions when you walk into one of those settings, but there are still ways through mentorship. Through fortifying yourself and through finding mentorship, even in people that don't immediately present just like you, that you actually can sustain yourself for as long as you dialed in to be in one of those settings.

Awesome. Let me ask you this because I've had the same experience and one of the things that I learned early on was the diversification, having diversity within your mentorship, like you stated. And one of the reasons, unfortunately, that I ended up doing that was because I ran into the, you know, the classic situation of. We already got one of us here. I'm not trying to get his spot up to these young men come up and coming. And it was more of a, it was almost like being an athlete, right? I understood that from being in athletics. I'm a starter. They got the young guy coming in. I'm not going to teach him my position so he can work me out of a job. And so that's how I translated it when I was younger. But in the idea of being able to get over yourself and reach out and diversify Your mentorship, your networking, how valuable do you know now that was as opposed to feeling like I need to find somebody that looks like me, talks like me, understands West side lingo, know where K town is, all this other stuff. How, how, how soon did you have to get over that and get out of that in order to really excel and go next level? Because that's very important for young black women.

I realized that pretty early because even some of my mentors coming out of law school were diverse. Like I got my sort of first long term mentor that was like a white male in school. One of the things I always say when you're looking for a mentor, you're looking for someone who's like their professionalism, their intellect, their career trajectory that you want to emulate, right? And you want to build genuine relationships with. And the truth is that, you know, to your point, some of them do need to look like you. They do need to reflect you in your lived experience. They need to know where K Town is at. Like you need to have that sort of comfort level, but not exclusively. You also want to see somebody and you're like, there's something about your career, the way you show up, your, your trajectory that I want to understand. And I want to understand it because it's different from my own, that helps me sort of start to navigate how you ended up where you did. What, again, like what I can ask for. For what you were able to do, see, and experience. And I think learning that early was it's, it's been critical. It's been, and I tell all black women that I'm coaching or working with that. I'm like, you need to have a kitchen cabinet of mentors. They are not transactional relationships. They are real meaningful relationships that when done well are two way street that you pour into, and they should be with a diverse set of stakeholders. Right. Even amongst people of color, there are people with different skillsets and lived experiences because they're going to pull a different, you know, I have multiple black women that I go, they are not the same black woman. They do not have the same experience. And so I don't draw on them with the same types of questions or challenges. You need to have a diversity, but that's also true of racial diversity. You can learn an extraordinary amount from different types of thought, right? This goes to even sort of how you think about once you're an executive, Who you work with a team with and how you build teams. A lot of times the things we take for granted is that you learn more or can do more with the person that has a different skillset than you, where you could combine those talents than just always trying to be in sort of like grouping together. And so you have to be willing to do that. And the earlier you learn that the further you go, because each one of those different mentors will give you a different angle at how to look at a Problem, which will compliment the way you address situations as they arise. Cause they come in, you know, this is Tony's point, whether you have the most fortification, the most confidence, those situations are coming at what will distinguish the individual as how they address them, but the more angles you have to sort of turn that Rubik's cube over, it'll help, it'll make it easier.

Absolutely. One of the things I tell people when I'm coaching them is you want to have a Navy SEAL team of talent. And so you got to have a sniper. You got to have a demolitions guy. You got to have a frog, man. You got to have like, everybody can't be the same dude or we never going to breach this spot. All you got to have people to see it from different angles. Absolutely. We got, we got a wall guy, you know what I'm saying? We got to make sure you got all of those in order to make it to where you're trying to do from a mission perspective. So. That was good.

So, one of the things that, you know, people struggle with, right? Because everything that you just got finished saying, Candice, makes total sense. Even what Chris just talked about with the You know, frog man in the whole nine yards. Right. You know, I've been in sales, you know, almost 30 years now. And so networking has always been part of what I do. Yeah. Okay. So I have a network. I've been, you know, something that you do just not from a clientele standpoint, but also within the organization and build your brand throughout different departments and stuff to that nature. However, a lot of people struggle, you are not in an outgoing position who may be an engineer who may be whatever the case may be in terms of building their network within the organization or finding mentors that make sense to them. So what would you advise how, you know, if I'm young and I'm not an outgoing person, I'm shy, I'm sharp, I'm smart, you know, I, I still, and I may grow up and be more gregarious, whatever. But my point is, what would you tell me to find within my organization or outside the organization to start finding mentors, to start networking, to build my brand, and more importantly, build those connections?

I love, I love that you asked that question, Tony, because I'm like, everybody's not an extrovert. Right. Um, and there are a lot of us like I like I'm an intro. I'm an extroverted introvert, right? I have a master skills. I need to be able to succeed in my life. But when I can crawl into my safe space, I am as happy as a cow. And so there are people in the world that are like, how did those folks thrive when it's not your natural inclination? And what I always say is I think networking or saying, I'm looking for a mentor or this can actually is a lot of pressure. If that's not something that you really enjoy. But the way I like to think of it is just having a natural curiosity about a thing. I always try to say to folks when I'm talking to them, it's like, have reverence for the thing that you're working on. So you're the quiet engineer in a bigger, larger institution. Some of having reverence for is saying, okay, my division is engineering, but I actually want to understand the sales because by understanding what they're doing over in sales, it's going to help me answer some questions about engineering, about, you know, how we do product development and design, just because I can see the whole pipeline of where this thing is going, right? And that's not me saying, look, I want to, I want a glad hand with the team over in sales. You know, I'm trying to clap. It's just like, I'm having some, some, some reverence, some curiosity about the whole of this thing. So instead of saying, I'm going out to find a mentor, I just want to sit down with some people and sort of understand what happens in this division, what I can understand about it to compliment my work and think about developing. Relationships in a genuine way that centers less like, and I think for some of those people, like this idea of like, I'm network or I'm, I'm building relationship, but it's actually like, center it on your work, which I think, you know, for people like that is a safer space and then they can use it in that way. An example I give when I was at the Department of education, it was coming to the Department of education is a big Byzantine place. Right. You're trying to think about how can we sort of pull some levers to enact change for this really specific group of people. I wasn't like, Ooh, I'm going to network and get through this place. But the truth is, I was like, I need to understand what all these different divisions do and how we can pull levers to have an impact. So I got to go and meet some people, you know, not about me, but meet some people in these different sort of divisions of this place. Place. And by doing that, actually really focused on the work, you do two things. You end up making a lot of relationships. But also the thing that you do when you're having reverence for the thing that you're trying to do, you realize that there are tons of stuff that other people can teach you and but for having those interactions with some of those people, they again, we're talking about that Rubik's Cube. They can show you an angle of the way you're thinking about a problem that you may have missed. And their way might be the silver bullet. And actually I found that when I was working on a strategy there, that, but for just being out sort of networking or meeting with people, asking some questions, somebody was like, actually, we probably can't do some of that stuff that you're talking about, but there's this one thing that you didn't raise that we really could do. And it ended up being a really critical thing. So that's a way for a more introverted or a different type of personality to approach it when they do end up with the relationships feel more meaningful. And the exercise feels like it's substantial.

Can I add one other thing that, that, that, that by doing that, what, what happens, you build your brand, right? And by building your brand, Opportunities come from that. Are you going over and chatting and learning about, you know, another department and learning this and that all of a sudden this person, Oh, I like him. Oh, I like her, you know, and then all of a sudden there could be an opportunity that they don't even have a job description for yet, hasn't even been posted, but because you built your brand and they like you and how you came over and you was inquisitive and you came over and was like, how can I help you guys and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It opens up other opportunities that you may never known about just by doing that. Would you agree with that or not?

I absolutely agree with that, but our introverts, I'm not going to be able to name that as the, but you absolutely are doing it. There's no question about it. And also somebody's like, Oh, they, you care. They're asking questions about the business. It's like that, you know, like you're building people respect you. Absolutely. There's no question about it.

So, so, and, and, and then that, um, have you ever found resistance to your inquisitive nature? Have you ever felt like, you know, what really, how did you absorb that? How, give me some tips or tricks for young women or young people of color or anybody of how to navigate those waters. Because when we got highlight tapes, then it means, it means seemed like, oh, I could be you too one day. And then like, it's the door slammed on me. Like, she never put this in the book. So,

and I think that's important because at the day, what Mike Tyson says, you know, everybody's got a game plan so they can hit in the mouth.

Right, right, right. Exactly. No, I think that's the truth is everybody's not going to be great. Or some people, even if you're just like, look, I'm trying to have reference of what I'm going to say questions. Some people will be curt. I don't have time to talk to you or you want to have questions, you know, go on the website and read this doc. And there are people who will sort of you, but come on now, people will do it. You know, we issued a report, read the report, you know, they'll, they'll sort of, you know, Or look at you

sideways, right?

Just sort of um, but I really would say to a young professional you can't let that discourage you if some person is shutting you Down, that's not your person Obviously, that's not the person you're going to build likely a genuine mentorship relationship with, but it gives you an opportunity. Don't stop reaching out to people. When I had the same example at the department of AI, I remember going on really early and sort of articulating for some folks, what I thought my ideas were of things that we can accomplish. And I had this guy say to me, actually, I'm never getting, he said to me, he was like, why don't you just use this time and like write a little report and we can publish it and put your name on it. You know, and I'm thinking, am I, I'm not kidding you. And I actually don't think that he was trying. I really genuinely don't think that he was trying to be condescending. He just felt like I was probably misdirected. Cause I'm talking about stuff. I'm like, we did this guys. We can impact thousands of lives. Like we could really do some good work here. And he was just sort of like. You know, somebody who had been there for a long time, like, ah, they're not going to, in his mind, I think he's thinking, they're not going to do that. They're not going to take, you know, they're not going to take that up. Here's something else that you can do. And you'll, you'll get a little credit, you know, put your little name on it kind of thing. And I, you know, I could have been like, Oh, he's being dismissive. Like, I'm just going to go now, like sit in the corner for the rest of my time. But I was like, no, I, I probably, you know, tighten up a little bit of gumption. I was like, no, No, I don't need to write a report and just put my name on it. I actually want to figure out if we can do something that can have some impact on people's lives. And, you know, sort of kept meeting and networking with people and found that there were people who actually agreed with me. And before it was all said and done, he actually agreed with me because I think it renewed his faith that actually things could happen. If you continue to sort of like really be consistent and sort of push and build your brand and garner respect to show people that you, you mean it, and you're willing to put the work in. And so that's what I would say to that professional. Yes, they're absolutely going to be people that discourage you that undercut you and just that. Frankly, outright shut you down and, you know, hit you in the mouth, but you don't stop like you got to keep going. And that's the truth in that situation. And through a career, like they're, they're not sprints. They're marathons. It's not all going to feel.

Wow. No, that's right. I look, I'm all fired up right now. I'm ready to roll. Right. I'm going to work tomorrow. Like I'm back. I'm the man you ever know. I'm teasing. But you got my girl. I love your energy. Final thoughts for the audience. I mean, you just said a lot right there in terms of how to deal with obstacles. But what do you want? People is outside of that. What do you want? People who's going to listen to this? What do you want them to walk away with that they can take tomorrow? Because you've you look, let's be fair. You grew up in West Chicago. Okay, you went through a lot of obstacles and look where you are today. A very successful black woman. All right. And at the end of the day, and you've done and just to be, we're not trying to fawn over you, but just to be honest, your bio doesn't even do you justice. Okay. Of all the things I've read, which you wrote on, um, on the, um, about the, uh, the, uh, population, what was the publication? Um, Noel, you've written a lot of great things. It's right there in DC. It's called the, um, What's the publication called? The Wire or the Hill? The Hill. I'm sorry. Thank you. The Hill, right? The hill,

yep. The hill. You've,

you've done a lot of great things, so there's a lot of great accolades and obviously great success doesn't come, you know, just a linear ladder, right? At the end of the day, there's stops and starts, ups and downs. You just spoke a little bit about him as well. So what's some of the final thoughts that you want to leave to the audience that they can walk away with in terms of being able to be successful in corporate America or any endeavor that they may put together?

I think that's something that I would leave people with. You know, I always say when you're, this is where, when, when you're saying that, and when Chris was reading my bio, when you look back at your career, I feel like it looks like it all makes perfect sense, right? You can explain it. I did this and then I left to this, but I try to tell people, I'm like, when you're living it, it feels like you're backing into it. You know, like it's just not as easy. And for young professionals, for young black women, for young black people coming up, don't feel like, like, it's not going to feel like every magical choices pre design. I said, I was going to do this. And then two years later, I did that. And I was there and I had 18. It actually, when you're living, it doesn't feel like that. It's going to feel really different when you arrive at your principal place and look back. And that's okay. Stay in it, right? If you take some of these tips that we've talked about, building a good mentorship pool, knowing and fortifying yourself, remember who you are, right? We are living in a society that is designed to reinforce constantly. Our deficits, it will create deficits for us that don't actually exist. If we drown in that, we're just going to drown. We have to remember who we are. We come with incredible stress, incredible endurance in spite of things. And like young people going into these settings, they're going to be. But they have to remember that and sort of fortify themselves in a way have that mentorship and stay at it because they too are going to get to a place in their career when they look back and it's going to be this beautiful patchwork book of things that all make sense even though it didn't feel like every step of the way. Um, like they'll have their story to tell. And I think it's really important to remind people of that because when you're young, you're stressing yourself out because you're such in this constant strife. But it's like, you will get there. It's a marathon. It's just a set of building blocks. Keep at it. You know, if you just don't let it sort of destroy you and drown, you're going to get there.

You've let your actual support system and your spiritual support system navigate through, through the mirage of negativity that exists, that you realize that's not real. That's not where they just saying stuff. Don't believe that. And I'm glad you've been able to reinforce yourself. Uh, with that type of fortitude, uh, what can we do at a black executive perspective podcast to help you? Your journey as you continue to ascend because you young as hell. Like this ain't over. That seemed like I know a lot of, she said she was watching the

Cosby Show, I'm like, I was out there leaving. I couldn't watch the co show on the bone.

I was, I was watching tv.

So what can we do? I

just, you know, one, I love this platform. I love that you guys are engaging in these conversations. I want people to just know about our work. Follow us at public welfare. org. We are public welfare on all the handles, Twitter, Instagram, and I want people to know some of the work that we're doing with organizations all over the country. They do incredible work on behalf of people every day. I really want people to take the opportunity to learn about their work and engage more if they can. And I think. Having platforms like this, talking about these issues, spreading the word about our good work. I couldn't ask for anything more. I just appreciate the opportunity to be here with you guys.

Well, listen, we're blessed to have you here. Um, our society is blessed to have you. Okay. If we've had, we have more people like you, Candice, and I'm not, again, I'm just, we call it like we see it. Okay. That's out there. That's making stuff happen. And more importantly, provide, you know, at the end of the day, I learned this a long time ago. It's, we're all trees, and at the end of the day, you can tell a healthy tree is by how many branches does that tree have. How many other people has, has that tree helped, right? And I can tell you've helped, you've helped us, you've helped people who are going to listen to this. And I know for a fact, you have a big, beautiful tree of branches of people that you've helped along the way. So we really appreciate you joining. We really thank you for the love and the passion, the intellect that you share today. And we want you to stay along because we want your help in terms of our call to action. How does that sound?

Sounds great.

Okay. Awesome. So now I think it's time for Tony's tidbit. Okay. And it's always a tidbit is always about what we talked about. So today's tidbit is mentorship serves as a critical link between overcoming obstacles and obtaining success. Wholeheartedly embrace it to elevate the next wave of black women leaders, build your network deliberately. It is not merely about your connections, but about who you inspire and who inspires you. And you heard that today from Candice C Jones, and we loved her because she inspired us.

Absolutely. And just remember to tune in for another inspirational black lady that we have in our segment, need to know with Nsenga, or, you know, every week. I need to know with Nsenga she discusses topics and subject matter that shape our community and world. Dr. Nsenga Burton You should tune into her and make sure you gain the unique insights and perspectives and understanding issues that matter to us and matter to the world. This is something you don't want to miss. Trust. No,

you don't. She just finished in, uh, her last recording. So it's going to be awesome. So definitely check it out on Thursday. I hope you enjoyed today's episode, vision and vigor. Prospects for black women in leadership.

And we want to remind you to always embrace the call to action that we have, which is less L E S S the first L or the L there is for learn, educate yourself on racial and cultural nuances. So you can pass that information down and mentor the next generation.

Absolutely. Chris, because our goal is to decrease. All type of discrimination. So after you learn, you have E, E stands for empathy. Now you should be more empathetic against your fellow human being.

And the S, that first S there is for share. After you've learned and you're more empathetic. Aesthetic. Share what, you know, share your personal story and educate somebody else that's gonna help them grow.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And the final S is for stop. You want to stop discrimination as it walks in your path. So if you hear grandma at the grand at the Thanksgiving table. Saying something inappropriate. You say, grandma, we don't say that, right? You stop it right there. And by everyone incorporating less, we're going to build a more fair, more understanding world, and we're going to see the change that we want to see. Because less will become more.

We definitely want you to tune in for our next episodes. It's going to be powerful. May I, I'm hoping that it stays as powerful as this one. This was a high mark to me,

but, uh,

we, we also want you to go to our website and sign up for the newsletter. We want you to leave us reviews and speak to us. We want you to subscribe wherever you're listening to this podcast. It'll help us help you where you are, because we want to continue to bring great talent, great individuals, great human beings, great people. To this platform to speak their story and you'll realize the world is not as desperate. It's not as it's not as divided as they want you to believe in this mirage of negativity. It's just a mirage.

Exactly. And you can follow a black executive perspective podcast on all of our socials at LinkedIn X, YouTube, Facebook, and tick tock at Ablackexec for our fabulous guests. Candice C. Jones who brought the power and the love and the knowledge today for the co host with the most, my man, Chris P. Reed for Noel Miller, who's behind the glass that made all this happen. I'm Tony tidbit. We talked about it. We love you and we're out

a black executive perspective.