1 00:00:01,603 --> 00:00:04,173 Shawn: it is just really refreshing when someone else says 2 00:00:04,173 --> 00:00:07,713 people deserve better and makes it . So I really appreciate that. 3 00:00:07,713 --> 00:00:08,793 It brings me a lot of joy. 4 00:00:09,863 --> 00:00:15,803 I think people have a lot of trepidation when they change careers at age 30 and 5 00:00:15,803 --> 00:00:19,193 so I don't want to the impression, like I just took a leap of faith or anything. 6 00:00:19,203 --> 00:00:23,503 You can actually test this out with the resources available today and de-risk 7 00:00:23,508 --> 00:00:26,023 significantly the career transition. 8 00:00:27,425 --> 00:00:30,575 Eddie: Welcome to Episode 4 of the WebJoy podcast. 9 00:00:31,025 --> 00:00:32,045 I'm your host, Eddie. 10 00:00:32,465 --> 00:00:36,635 In this podcast, we interview guests about their origin story and what 11 00:00:36,635 --> 00:00:39,965 makes them excited and joyful to be part of the tech community. 12 00:00:40,505 --> 00:00:43,475 I hope you enjoyed today's episode "Creating Something 13 00:00:43,475 --> 00:00:45,855 from Nothing" with Shawn Wang. 14 00:00:46,415 --> 00:00:51,376 Hey, thanks for coming on the show, introduce yourself to the community. 15 00:00:51,376 --> 00:00:53,836 Who are you, what do you do, where do you work? 16 00:00:53,836 --> 00:00:56,093 You know, just a brief introduction about yourself. 17 00:00:57,146 --> 00:00:57,566 Shawn: Thanks Eddie. 18 00:00:57,626 --> 00:00:58,406 This is exciting. 19 00:00:58,406 --> 00:00:59,616 So my name is Shawn. 20 00:00:59,636 --> 00:01:02,876 I'm originally from Singapore and moved to the U.S. 21 00:01:02,876 --> 00:01:07,436 for a career in finance which then turned into a career in tech because I got so 22 00:01:07,441 --> 00:01:11,906 obsessed with creating user experience and applications and all that good stuff. 23 00:01:12,266 --> 00:01:15,986 I worked at Two Sigma as a software engineer, was the second developer 24 00:01:15,986 --> 00:01:20,576 advocate hire at Netlify, and then joined AWS to do the same thing. 25 00:01:20,676 --> 00:01:23,286 Most recently I'm Head Developer Experience at Temporal 26 00:01:24,501 --> 00:01:24,861 Eddie: Awesome. 27 00:01:24,921 --> 00:01:26,931 That sounds like a very fun, exciting journey. 28 00:01:28,112 --> 00:01:31,577 Shawn: I think what's interesting about the web is the vast majority of us are 29 00:01:31,577 --> 00:01:33,737 actually not formally trained for it. 30 00:01:34,007 --> 00:01:38,147 It's inclusive field and it's such early days that it's still possible. 31 00:01:38,177 --> 00:01:42,887 I think a lot of other well paid jobs or six figure jobs, you'd have to go 32 00:01:42,887 --> 00:01:46,167 through years of formal training before you even get to practice the thing. 33 00:01:46,807 --> 00:01:50,827 Eddie: Yeah, absolutely, and it's so interesting too, because a lot 34 00:01:50,827 --> 00:01:55,542 of times formal training doesn't even move you really far ahead. 35 00:01:55,542 --> 00:01:58,072 With some companies and businesses, you know, it will. 36 00:01:58,072 --> 00:02:03,342 But, I know I was going for a bachelor's in computer science back I was in college 37 00:02:03,342 --> 00:02:10,172 and I was learning less in college than I was just going out and programming with 38 00:02:10,292 --> 00:02:12,002 freelance and with different companies. 39 00:02:12,532 --> 00:02:16,828 You learn a lot more on the job than you do, studying and education and 40 00:02:16,833 --> 00:02:18,598 everything with tech, just the way it is. 41 00:02:18,920 --> 00:02:20,355 What got you interested in tech, right? 42 00:02:20,355 --> 00:02:23,595 You were interested in finance and then you found yourself, you know, 43 00:02:23,605 --> 00:02:25,365 swinging over into the tech area. 44 00:02:25,365 --> 00:02:26,320 What stood out to you? 45 00:02:27,615 --> 00:02:30,105 Shawn: I think the ability to create something from 46 00:02:30,105 --> 00:02:32,085 nothing is always compelling. 47 00:02:32,445 --> 00:02:39,115 And I was in a hedge fund looking all these IPOs that were coming out and a 48 00:02:39,115 --> 00:02:42,470 lot of our job was to evaluate the IPO. 49 00:02:42,470 --> 00:02:44,870 See if there are good investments and then continue to cover 50 00:02:44,870 --> 00:02:46,760 them after a public offering. 51 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,280 I realized a lot of the value that was being created in the private 52 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:56,580 markets and it was mostly by software engineers and that I could also do that. 53 00:02:56,980 --> 00:03:00,891 So I was interested in pursuing value creation, activity, 54 00:03:00,961 --> 00:03:02,301 or whatever you call that. 55 00:03:02,301 --> 00:03:03,731 It's all so abstract. 56 00:03:03,951 --> 00:03:07,856 And I thought that, there's just more money to be made in private markets than 57 00:03:07,856 --> 00:03:09,266 in public markets, and so I switch over. 58 00:03:09,566 --> 00:03:12,986 The other thing that really motivated me personally, was that 59 00:03:13,116 --> 00:03:14,316 I was a quantitative traders. 60 00:03:14,316 --> 00:03:18,016 In other words, I was running a lot of models and accessing a lot of trading 61 00:03:18,036 --> 00:03:23,491 strategies and presenting that to my portfolio manager, my boss, but the 62 00:03:23,521 --> 00:03:27,241 problem was that every time he needed a change he would tell it to me and then 63 00:03:27,241 --> 00:03:30,431 I have to translate that to code, and then I have to rerun it and give to him. 64 00:03:30,431 --> 00:03:33,221 So in other words, I was a script monkey and I was the limiting 65 00:03:33,221 --> 00:03:35,786 factor for the usability of my code. 66 00:03:36,126 --> 00:03:41,536 So in order to divorce my time for my output I had to create a user 67 00:03:41,536 --> 00:03:45,091 interfaces that other people could use and that's essentially what led me 68 00:03:45,091 --> 00:03:50,881 to focus on JavaScript and move away from the sort of number crunchy Excel, 69 00:03:50,886 --> 00:03:52,981 Python, Hascal world that I was in. 70 00:03:53,514 --> 00:03:54,744 Eddie: I think it's so interesting. 71 00:03:54,744 --> 00:03:59,184 Cuz a lot of career switchers are in a career. 72 00:03:59,424 --> 00:04:04,154 They get frustrated with that career and then they just kind of jump 73 00:04:04,154 --> 00:04:08,664 ship and they think tech is easy or interesting, but it's not necessarily 74 00:04:08,664 --> 00:04:09,784 tied into what they're doing. 75 00:04:10,044 --> 00:04:15,604 So it really intrigues me that you found your love for coding while in the other 76 00:04:15,604 --> 00:04:17,534 job that's a really awesome transition. 77 00:04:17,950 --> 00:04:20,810 Shawn: Yeah, and it wasn't a cold switch as well. 78 00:04:20,810 --> 00:04:23,750 I took about a year to test the waters. 79 00:04:23,755 --> 00:04:28,640 I became a non-technical product manager at a startup just to see if 80 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:30,380 I could work with software engineers. 81 00:04:30,380 --> 00:04:35,810 And if I got the space and then on the side, I also learned JavaScript on 82 00:04:35,810 --> 00:04:37,860 my own with the help of FreeCodeCamp. 83 00:04:38,140 --> 00:04:44,080 I think people have a lot of trepidation when they change careers at age 30 and 84 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,470 so I don't want to the impression, like I just took a leap of faith or anything. 85 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,780 You can actually test this out with the resources available today and de-risk 86 00:04:51,785 --> 00:04:54,300 significantly the career transition. 87 00:04:54,769 --> 00:04:55,489 Eddie: I really love that. 88 00:04:55,489 --> 00:05:00,659 Bringing analysis, intentionality and methodology to making big, 89 00:05:01,019 --> 00:05:02,459 dangerous leaps like that. 90 00:05:02,519 --> 00:05:04,009 I think that's best for everyone, right? 91 00:05:04,009 --> 00:05:07,219 It helps you feel more safe and secure and also make sure 92 00:05:07,229 --> 00:05:07,999 you're making the right choices. 93 00:05:09,199 --> 00:05:12,339 Shawn: Yeah, in another world I would be interested in starting like a bootcamp 94 00:05:12,369 --> 00:05:16,149 to help others do same thing that I did, but I feel like you should only do that 95 00:05:16,149 --> 00:05:20,239 when you've made it and you are kind of retired and you're all right, let 96 00:05:20,239 --> 00:05:21,799 me give back to the next generation. 97 00:05:22,189 --> 00:05:23,479 I feel like it's a bit too soon for me. 98 00:05:25,849 --> 00:05:26,479 Eddie: Nice. 99 00:05:26,559 --> 00:05:31,299 I look forward to seeing that in 20, 30, 40 years, whenever you decide to retire, 100 00:05:33,349 --> 00:05:33,679 Shawn: sure. 101 00:05:34,439 --> 00:05:38,229 Eddie: So just kind of wrapping up your journey now you're a developer 102 00:05:38,234 --> 00:05:43,184 advocate what sticks out to you as a developer advocate versus a straight 103 00:05:43,184 --> 00:05:46,949 developer and what do you enjoy in that and what keeps you going day to day? 104 00:05:47,292 --> 00:05:50,352 Shawn: So I guess the main difference is that you don't maintain production code. 105 00:05:50,842 --> 00:05:56,302 It's not true that you don't write code at all because you actually have 106 00:05:56,302 --> 00:06:01,017 to write code really well for your demos to work and for your ability 107 00:06:01,017 --> 00:06:04,067 to answer questions from your users. 108 00:06:04,727 --> 00:06:08,147 The main responsibility for a dev advocate would be content. 109 00:06:08,197 --> 00:06:14,917 Because that's the thing that startups most need and specifically 110 00:06:14,917 --> 00:06:16,537 developer focused content. 111 00:06:16,587 --> 00:06:22,327 And really it's just a rebranding of marketing because most marketing fails 112 00:06:22,327 --> 00:06:26,617 so epically when trying to relate things that developers want and need. 113 00:06:26,987 --> 00:06:30,347 So the idea is to hire developers, to talk to other developers. 114 00:06:30,347 --> 00:06:33,457 And it seems to have worked out such that people are really investing in that. 115 00:06:33,745 --> 00:06:37,885 I think that can get over excited about it though, because at the end of the 116 00:06:37,885 --> 00:06:40,105 day, you're still not a real engineer. 117 00:06:40,715 --> 00:06:44,185 there's still a ceiling in terms of what a developer advocate can go. 118 00:06:44,215 --> 00:06:47,115 There's no established career track from standard engineer 119 00:06:47,115 --> 00:06:48,935 to manager, to VP, to CTO. 120 00:06:49,630 --> 00:06:50,620 You're never gonna do that. 121 00:06:50,950 --> 00:06:56,980 So a lot of developer advocates probably end up as teachers as independent teachers 122 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,490 doing their courses, because if you could teach for one company, why can't 123 00:07:00,490 --> 00:07:04,190 you teach 10 different companies and get a pretty good income based on that. 124 00:07:04,500 --> 00:07:08,060 The other people, for example, like myself, I tend toward more products. 125 00:07:08,060 --> 00:07:11,300 So in other words, if I ever left developer advocacy, I would want to 126 00:07:11,300 --> 00:07:14,990 work more on product management because that's where I have more impact. 127 00:07:15,020 --> 00:07:18,500 The tricky thing about developer advocates is that it's kind of regarded to be your 128 00:07:18,500 --> 00:07:21,440 job, to talk to as many users as possible. 129 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:23,990 But at the same time, you have the least power to do anything, 130 00:07:23,990 --> 00:07:28,025 to change the product apart from just begging and pleading with 131 00:07:28,025 --> 00:07:29,195 your product engineering team. 132 00:07:29,585 --> 00:07:32,635 So there's a spectrum and I think this is an industry that's still being developed. 133 00:07:32,945 --> 00:07:35,075 Eddie: It's good to see the different routes people can take. 134 00:07:35,075 --> 00:07:39,625 I know a lot of people don't know about developer advocates so gaining kind of 135 00:07:39,625 --> 00:07:43,565 preview into that, like if they to go that route, what that holds for them is great. 136 00:07:43,655 --> 00:07:44,075 Thank you. 137 00:07:44,879 --> 00:07:49,165 I guess let's dive into the goal of this podcast is to talk about 138 00:07:49,165 --> 00:07:51,145 different things that bring us joy. 139 00:07:51,145 --> 00:07:54,835 So for you, what's something that brings you joy that you'd 140 00:07:54,835 --> 00:07:55,765 like to talk about today? 141 00:07:56,444 --> 00:07:58,594 Shawn: We did a bit of prep before this and the one I picked 142 00:07:58,594 --> 00:08:00,464 was something a left field. 143 00:08:00,464 --> 00:08:04,564 It's a website called Listen Notes and it gives me joy as a user and 144 00:08:04,564 --> 00:08:09,204 as a developer who someday hopes to start a business that's similar. 145 00:08:10,039 --> 00:08:13,889 Listen Notes is an podcast search platform, it indexes all 146 00:08:13,909 --> 00:08:17,059 podcasts and it gives you a very simple, straightforward search. 147 00:08:17,469 --> 00:08:24,169 But the user interface is actually so sensible and it does so much I 148 00:08:24,189 --> 00:08:28,269 just have the best time every time I need to look up something from a 149 00:08:28,469 --> 00:08:30,269 podcast, I need to find a podcast. 150 00:08:30,619 --> 00:08:34,039 It's the first place I turn to because everything else is so bad at it. 151 00:08:34,139 --> 00:08:38,519 Apple, Spotify or everything else, basically doesn't 152 00:08:38,519 --> 00:08:40,289 really respect the open web. 153 00:08:40,499 --> 00:08:44,949 Doesn't really respect the MP3 distributed nature of podcast. 154 00:08:44,949 --> 00:08:49,569 Everyone wants to try to their own podcasting platform on you. 155 00:08:49,809 --> 00:08:52,799 When really, I just wanna look up an episode a simple task 156 00:08:52,949 --> 00:08:54,429 that doesn't do very well. 157 00:08:54,579 --> 00:08:56,224 Listen notes it's just the right mix. 158 00:08:56,504 --> 00:09:01,274 It's created by one guy just indexing the entire web of podcast. 159 00:09:01,324 --> 00:09:04,574 He ran a successful, independent solo business. 160 00:09:04,594 --> 00:09:08,134 And I think it's just great, cuz it makes users happy , makes him happy. 161 00:09:08,134 --> 00:09:10,764 And you know, the tech stack is pretty interesting as well. 162 00:09:11,849 --> 00:09:12,639 Eddie: That's awesome. 163 00:09:13,223 --> 00:09:15,649 I never heard of this before. 164 00:09:15,649 --> 00:09:17,359 I'm really into podcasts. 165 00:09:17,389 --> 00:09:21,209 I've done a couple small podcasts myself over time and yeah, I've 166 00:09:21,209 --> 00:09:22,169 actually never run across it. 167 00:09:22,169 --> 00:09:27,959 I always end up using iTunes podcast cuz like the closest to the open web. 168 00:09:27,959 --> 00:09:31,649 But like you said, it still has a lot to be desired. 169 00:09:31,739 --> 00:09:33,289 How'd you find out about it. 170 00:09:34,179 --> 00:09:38,369 Shawn: The guy posts, about his tech stack every so often, and his 171 00:09:38,369 --> 00:09:41,189 progress as a business on Hacker News and every single time he does it. 172 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:45,189 It's super outvoted because he's transparent and I think it's very 173 00:09:45,189 --> 00:09:47,999 inspirational that one person can do such an amazing website. 174 00:09:48,389 --> 00:09:50,094 Like you're literally indexing all podcasts. 175 00:09:50,154 --> 00:09:52,584 And you're also doing translations. 176 00:09:52,799 --> 00:09:56,919 To like, whatever 10, 20 different images that he also supports. 177 00:09:57,119 --> 00:10:01,169 So it's like a fully fledged, like web app that has his very high standards 178 00:10:01,709 --> 00:10:06,299 that most teams of 10, 20, a hundred people cannot reach they're so up 179 00:10:06,299 --> 00:10:09,999 their asses about shipping proprietary products that they forget the core user 180 00:10:09,999 --> 00:10:13,419 experience and Listen Notes definitely prioritizes the core user experience. 181 00:10:13,609 --> 00:10:16,339 So one example is try to go to iTunes and try to download 182 00:10:16,339 --> 00:10:18,649 the MP3 file for any podcasts. 183 00:10:18,989 --> 00:10:20,464 iTunes has never heard of an MP3. 184 00:10:21,349 --> 00:10:26,179 why, because they want you to to and subscribe on their player, and it's 185 00:10:26,179 --> 00:10:31,999 so weird that you would take something that so open and try to put around it. 186 00:10:31,999 --> 00:10:36,439 I get the company incentives, but it is just really refreshing when someone 187 00:10:36,439 --> 00:10:40,809 else says people deserve better and makes it . So I really appreciate that. 188 00:10:40,809 --> 00:10:41,889 It brings me a lot of joy. 189 00:10:42,189 --> 00:10:49,074 Also take advantage of by the way is try to embed your podcast into other websites. 190 00:10:49,074 --> 00:10:52,864 So for example, when I was working at Temporal, we would do podcasts and I was 191 00:10:52,864 --> 00:10:56,734 to actually embed it into a blog and put a transcript of the podcast on our blog. 192 00:10:57,094 --> 00:11:01,894 And so we wanted a way to embed the player and all the other players don't have the 193 00:11:01,894 --> 00:11:06,759 right mix of seeking and fast forwarding, playing a 2X adjusting the volume. 194 00:11:06,999 --> 00:11:10,519 Only Listen Notes shows a player in embed that you can sort of 195 00:11:10,519 --> 00:11:11,539 chuck in there on your blog. 196 00:11:11,539 --> 00:11:12,559 If it, it hovers. 197 00:11:12,829 --> 00:11:15,959 It's just a really nice experience to listen while looking through the 198 00:11:15,959 --> 00:11:20,709 transcripts, maybe looking at links that were mentioned by the guests and 199 00:11:20,709 --> 00:11:21,969 it's all supported by Listen Notes. 200 00:11:21,969 --> 00:11:23,589 I'm sure there's features that I don't even know about. 201 00:11:23,589 --> 00:11:24,519 You know what I mean? 202 00:11:24,689 --> 00:11:25,649 Eddie: I'm super impressed. 203 00:11:25,649 --> 00:11:27,569 I've just looked around it a little bit. 204 00:11:27,619 --> 00:11:30,409 As you said, we did a little bit of prep, so I knew you were gonna mention 205 00:11:30,409 --> 00:11:32,089 that and thought, what is this thing? 206 00:11:32,129 --> 00:11:33,029 I've never heard of it. 207 00:11:33,839 --> 00:11:34,799 It looks really exciting. 208 00:11:34,829 --> 00:11:37,169 I think I'm going to be definitely spending some time here. 209 00:11:37,459 --> 00:11:40,009 There's a lot there, like enough that I was like, let me skim it 210 00:11:40,009 --> 00:11:41,184 and find out what all it does. 211 00:11:41,184 --> 00:11:43,404 And I was like, yeah, I'm not gonna figure that out. 212 00:11:43,644 --> 00:11:44,724 in a short time of skimming it. 213 00:11:46,174 --> 00:11:52,024 Shawn: It presents in the way that the authors of the podcasts, once a show 214 00:11:52,024 --> 00:11:57,484 it to you instead of trying to hide it in favor of the platform's priorities. 215 00:11:57,904 --> 00:11:59,304 Very simple things like show notes. 216 00:11:59,829 --> 00:12:03,344 A lot of platforms just hide them from you because again, want you to play 217 00:12:03,344 --> 00:12:06,934 the podcast and download their app or whatever, but Listen Notes is web 218 00:12:06,939 --> 00:12:08,744 first, so that just shows up there. 219 00:12:08,954 --> 00:12:10,534 It's just clean and really nice. 220 00:12:10,984 --> 00:12:11,674 I really appreciate. 221 00:12:11,674 --> 00:12:15,124 It's just the internationalization you can see like there's all these languages that 222 00:12:15,124 --> 00:12:17,134 are supported and it's the same person. 223 00:12:18,914 --> 00:12:21,339 I really appreciate that because so much of the world doesn't speak English. 224 00:12:21,389 --> 00:12:24,509 It's not like the podcast is translated at all, but it's just 225 00:12:24,509 --> 00:12:26,279 more usable software for people. 226 00:12:26,379 --> 00:12:27,519 Eddie: Yeah, that's amazing. 227 00:12:27,549 --> 00:12:31,839 I worked at another company couple years ago and we had like an engineering 228 00:12:31,839 --> 00:12:35,649 team of like 40 and the topic of internationalization was brought 229 00:12:35,649 --> 00:12:41,019 up and it was like, hush, no one say that word because of the upkeep 230 00:12:41,019 --> 00:12:42,579 and all of the burden and stuff. 231 00:12:42,609 --> 00:12:47,214 So to have one person doing that, that's absolutely amazing and super inspiring. 232 00:12:49,309 --> 00:12:53,319 Shawn: So there's one feature that I wish Listen Notes had that's in a 233 00:12:53,319 --> 00:12:55,279 different app, so It's called Listen Box. 234 00:12:55,749 --> 00:12:59,289 And so what happens is a lot of people start publishing video podcasts on 235 00:12:59,294 --> 00:13:04,659 YouTube, which is just live streams or edited live streams and it's a series and 236 00:13:04,689 --> 00:13:06,239 they don't publish the MP3 anywhere else. 237 00:13:06,789 --> 00:13:11,319 So what Listen Box does is it starts to help you strip the audio from the 238 00:13:11,319 --> 00:13:12,729 video and just listen to the audio. 239 00:13:13,359 --> 00:13:16,174 You could listen on the YouTube player itself, but it's just nice 240 00:13:16,174 --> 00:13:19,294 to have an audio only experience you're doing other stuff. 241 00:13:19,524 --> 00:13:22,084 you can listen like a podcast, and obviously maybe you're missing out 242 00:13:22,084 --> 00:13:26,734 something on screen, like the visual aids or the facial expressions. 243 00:13:27,074 --> 00:13:29,774 but still you get to skim the content without using your eyes. 244 00:13:29,804 --> 00:13:34,034 And I think that's just really a nice experience and I wish that these 245 00:13:34,124 --> 00:13:38,324 two sites that start with listen in their name would combine by. 246 00:13:40,334 --> 00:13:45,284 Eddie: I actually had a podcast that I was interested in, but very rarely listened 247 00:13:45,284 --> 00:13:47,684 to because it was only a YouTube video. 248 00:13:48,539 --> 00:13:50,309 I don't subscribe to YouTube. 249 00:13:50,309 --> 00:13:54,309 I can't have it closed down in the background of my phone and listen to 250 00:13:54,309 --> 00:13:58,399 it and it has to be open on the screen they did finally turn into a podcast, 251 00:13:58,399 --> 00:14:02,749 so I won't end up using this for them, but that definitely was a key thing 252 00:14:02,929 --> 00:14:04,819 where like, I wasn't listening because. 253 00:14:05,569 --> 00:14:09,919 I couldn't listen audio only, and this been super handy. 254 00:14:09,919 --> 00:14:11,869 So that is really awesome to see. 255 00:14:12,199 --> 00:14:14,449 And, like you said, they, should do a merger. 256 00:14:14,454 --> 00:14:18,719 If listen box and listen notes is listening, start 257 00:14:18,719 --> 00:14:20,344 talking, you should merge. 258 00:14:22,134 --> 00:14:22,764 Shawn: Please get together. 259 00:14:23,064 --> 00:14:23,724 Yeah, exactly. 260 00:14:23,824 --> 00:14:26,374 Eddie: As a community, we really love to support each other. 261 00:14:26,434 --> 00:14:31,354 And so one thing that before we wrap up, we'd really love to hear is anything 262 00:14:31,354 --> 00:14:33,394 that we can do to help support you? 263 00:14:33,394 --> 00:14:36,604 Do you have anything that you're involved in or anything you've worked on that 264 00:14:36,604 --> 00:14:39,874 you'd to share with the community that they might be helpful themselves? 265 00:14:40,839 --> 00:14:41,199 Shawn: Yeah. 266 00:14:41,229 --> 00:14:45,949 I wrote a book a couple years ago called the coding career handbook, it's 267 00:14:45,949 --> 00:14:50,799 basically to help, junior level up into senior by talking about everything 268 00:14:50,799 --> 00:14:52,174 that happens after you get the job. 269 00:14:52,466 --> 00:14:56,349 and I think people are very focused on job hunting and interviewing in 270 00:14:56,349 --> 00:14:58,539 terms of tech career advice, books. 271 00:14:59,029 --> 00:15:03,089 But mine is more of a career reflection on, strategy, principles and tactics 272 00:15:03,089 --> 00:15:04,799 that can use to advance a career. 273 00:15:05,429 --> 00:15:10,769 I do a weekly meetup call where it's like a book club led by the author where we 274 00:15:10,769 --> 00:15:14,929 just talk about chapter by chapter and then, check in on the members' lives. 275 00:15:15,169 --> 00:15:19,069 In fact, I'm gonna one in about an hour from this call, it's just a 276 00:15:19,069 --> 00:15:21,149 really good mentorship experience. 277 00:15:21,149 --> 00:15:23,489 If you're interested in that for your team or for yourself. 278 00:15:24,669 --> 00:15:26,709 Eddie: If someone's like a mid-level engineer, do you think this 279 00:15:26,709 --> 00:15:27,789 would still be helpful for them? 280 00:15:28,809 --> 00:15:30,554 Shawn: Honestly, it's just a marketing line. 281 00:15:30,604 --> 00:15:33,904 It really applies to everyone that is interested in personal 282 00:15:33,904 --> 00:15:36,014 growth applied for developers. 283 00:15:36,164 --> 00:15:38,564 You scope it down so that you have a cohort of people who 284 00:15:38,564 --> 00:15:39,844 are roughly about the same. 285 00:15:40,154 --> 00:15:41,164 stage in life, right? 286 00:15:41,179 --> 00:15:44,179 So that's really what I'm trying to optimize for, because I think 287 00:15:44,179 --> 00:15:45,649 that's the biggest gap in the market. 288 00:15:46,049 --> 00:15:48,829 That's something that I personally went through as well so I have a lot 289 00:15:48,829 --> 00:15:50,559 of credibility when talking about it. 290 00:15:50,799 --> 00:15:52,739 We have engineering managers in our calls. 291 00:15:52,744 --> 00:15:56,269 We have one VP of Eng who was really enjoying our conversations because 292 00:15:56,269 --> 00:15:58,219 he loves providing his perspective. 293 00:15:58,609 --> 00:16:02,769 And I think you'll also just pick interesting ideas that don't really 294 00:16:02,769 --> 00:16:03,969 have anything to do with level. 295 00:16:04,269 --> 00:16:05,859 They're just interesting ideas, period. 296 00:16:06,249 --> 00:16:11,709 Personally for me I have had a really lucky, fortunate career as a content 297 00:16:11,709 --> 00:16:14,979 creator and a lot developers when they want to start out doing that. 298 00:16:15,029 --> 00:16:16,319 they kind of tune in for that as well. 299 00:16:17,279 --> 00:16:17,639 Eddie: Awesome. 300 00:16:17,759 --> 00:16:20,929 Where can they find your book that you wrote. 301 00:16:21,979 --> 00:16:27,519 Shawn: Yeah, it's at LearnInPublic.org and that's basically the foremost principle 302 00:16:27,519 --> 00:16:28,959 of everything and anything that I do. 303 00:16:28,959 --> 00:16:32,859 So I just bought domain I hope to turn it into a nonprofit someday, but 304 00:16:32,859 --> 00:16:34,539 right now it's just a book sales site. 305 00:16:36,009 --> 00:16:36,489 Eddie: Awesome. 306 00:16:36,687 --> 00:16:39,724 so if that speaks to anyone listening, right? 307 00:16:39,724 --> 00:16:42,994 Whether you're a junior engineer or a VP of engineering, go check 308 00:16:43,024 --> 00:16:44,824 that out, LearnInPublic.org. 309 00:16:45,274 --> 00:16:48,423 And, thank you Swyx for joining us today, just talking about something 310 00:16:48,423 --> 00:16:50,253 that brings you joy on the internet. 311 00:16:51,543 --> 00:16:51,873 Shawn: Thank you. 312 00:16:51,923 --> 00:16:52,943 This brought me a lot of joy to it. 313 00:16:54,504 --> 00:16:58,014 Eddie: Thanks for joining us for Episode 4, "Creating Something 314 00:16:58,014 --> 00:17:00,204 from Nothing" with Shawn Wang. 315 00:17:00,714 --> 00:17:04,674 You can find out more about Shawn on his Twitter @Swyx. 316 00:17:05,364 --> 00:17:09,534 You can find links to everything we talked about in this episode, as well as a link 317 00:17:09,534 --> 00:17:11,544 to Shawn's Twitter in the show notes. 318 00:17:12,144 --> 00:17:15,834 If you enjoyed this episode, please consider rating and reviewing it in 319 00:17:15,834 --> 00:17:20,954 your favorite podcast directory and following us on Twitter @WebJoyFM. 320 00:17:21,384 --> 00:17:22,974 Thank you and have a great day! 321 00:17:33,309 --> 00:17:35,529 Next episode on web joy. 322 00:17:38,690 --> 00:17:42,260 Michael: And it's once you learn that skill of being okay. 323 00:17:43,100 --> 00:17:47,100 Being uncomfortable and not knowing, it really does feel like a superpower. 324 00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:51,680 And now that I've been doing this for almost a decade now, it's very clear that 325 00:17:51,830 --> 00:17:57,000 anytime I come to learn a new topic or I start that journey, I get excited because 326 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,600 of all the failures that I know I'm going to have all the frustrations that 327 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,620 I know I'm gonna have to endure, being able to push past that and understand 328 00:18:04,620 --> 00:18:06,070 that there is a light where you come. 329 00:18:06,550 --> 00:18:07,350 victorious. 330 00:18:08,335 --> 00:18:12,415 Eddie: "Instead of Using Fire, I Use Ice" with Michael Lando.