Well, most conflict begins around resource scarcity and the ability to control access to energy.

You look at that with Russia and Europe and Gazprom for instance.

And so whoever really unlocks this fusion energy first is going to dominate the future of energy.

If we lose our advantage, at least in the US as a leader in innovation and technology, we're going to really, really get behind our ability to influence geopolitics.

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Hey there and welcome back to Lead the Team.

Our world needs energy and lots of it.

But the way we get that energy now is actually causing problems from climate change to rising cost.

What if there was a better way?

A clean, almost limitless source of power?

Well, that's what we're exploring today with fusion energy.

And you're going to hear directly from Michael Ginsburg, president of Tokamak Energy usa, a company leading the charge in making fusion a reality.

He's an expert with years of experience in clean energy, a doctorate from Columbia University and a deep understanding of how to bring new technologies from the lab to our homes and businesses.

He's also author of two books on the topic.

Infusion has the potential to change everything y'all about how we power our lives.

It could solve our energy problems for good.

It's vital we understand how it works and what actually means for our future.

Join me today.

Michael Ginsberg, welcome to lead the team.

Thanks Ben.

It's a pleasure to be with you.

So basically I just told everybody that you're going to save the world.

How does that, how does that hit?

It's great.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm so thrilled to be doing what I'm doing, just trying to make, make the mark that I can in my short life.

But you know, certainly it's it's, it's a team effort.

It takes a village as they say.

So it takes the, the entire company, that takes the entire community of, of all of us working in the energy sector to open new sources of energy.

And I'm just thrilled to play my part.

Is this fusion thing like has so much limitless potential, but it seems a little bit like it, like not it seems like how far away is this, is this possibility?

Because we got, we, we got big energy problems.

Yeah.

So you know, fusion's been sort of that holy folks have been reaching for, for very long, for decades and decades.

And I think the promise is really out there and we're really close.

You know, for a number of reasons.

We've, we've had, we've laid the foundation the fundamental science and in the last 20 years we've been able to leverage advancements in specific technologies like magnets and lasers and the way that we make certain materials.

And then on top of that, you know, the computational speeds now afforded by you know, AI and machine learning are key enablers for why this is going to happen today.

And we saw you know, just, just a few years ago now the net energy breakthrough in the National Ignition Facility.

So we, we know that fusion is something that is achievable on Earth.

It is.

What does that mean for, for, for us non energy experts?

Like a net breakthrough?

Like what?

Yeah.

So when we talk about net breakthrough, what we want to want to see is all the energy you put into this, this process, you want to get more energy out than you put in.

And so we call that Q.

And that's, you know, essentially a measure of whether you're getting more energy out than you're getting in.

Because, because then it, then, then it becomes an energy source for us.

Wow.

Well, let's do it.

So when, how, how long till we get fusion energy?

Yeah.

So you know, the way I look at it is, you know, we, we've, we've seen a tremendous amount of interest really following this, this, this breakthrough with National Ignition Facility, we're working steadily towards more milestones.

What we would like to get to is to de.

Risk the, the, the, the technology for a pilot plant relevant conditions or a power plant relevant conditions.

So I mean I see it in, you know, in the next decade, you know, mid-2030s, we're going to get these pilot plants up and running.

You know, they're going to be tests and then you know, you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll do a next generation.

So I'd say mid-2030s to 2040.

That, that's, that's, you know, my estimation with, with how long things take.

But my, my company has been around for, for quite some time, about 15 years operating with real plasma or fusion energy.

And you know, I think, I think we've got the right expertise and all the right ingredients to make this happen.

It is a very capital intensive thing.

You know, you're talking about major infrastructure.

So I think it's all about how much we want to see this happen in society.

We're talking about an energy source, you know, with, with, with really minimal issues that provides four times the amount of, of, of energy that you could get from the best sort of source out there today, which is nuclear fission when it comes to energy density.

So really this is the next, next step in our, I would call it our energy transformation.

What is AI doing for this industry?

That wasn't possible before.

Yeah, so we are seeing a significant increase in the, in this discovery of materials, materials that are needed to withstand conditions that we're talking about in a fusion device.

And you know, we're essentially talking about creating the sun conditions that are in the sun on Earth.

That might sound scary, but what we're, what we're doing is something that is inherently, the atoms don't want to do that which is come together and merge essentially or fuse.

So you know, the minute you take it, you take the energy off or you, you, you remove the confinement of those energy particles, it, the process is going to essentially stop.

So you know, unlike with, with nuclear fission where you get the risk of meltdowns and runaway, runaway events, there's no, there's no risk here.

But to answer your question about AI, so what, what does need to happen is the materials that are closest to the, the plasma energy are going to encounter all sorts of, all sorts of neutrons bombard bombarding them.

So they need to be able to withstand that and not degrade.

And so you need new types of alloys.

The other thing is the plasma itself is a bit like Jell O.

And it's, it's, it's, it's gotta have to be contained in a very small space.

And so every sort of fraction of a second, the, the computer needs to adapt to contain that plasma and keep it at optimal conditions.

So for the listeners, you just got the Cliff Notes from an expert on fusion and what's happening now.

One thing I experience experiences like a Pixar movie, like, okay, I'm understanding fusion, tokamak energy.

However, you are a leader who has to have a big vision.

You have to shift mindsets because you are essentially and correct if I'm wrong, you are raising and spending lots of capital on something that's down.

You're building towards something that is not possible right now.

You are selling a vision to your people, to the world of this huge possibility that could be 10, 15 years down the road.

And you've got to be a ninja in casting an inspiring vision or else this thing's not going to work.

Because people, because I think you're, you're, you have to get people from, stop worrying about what they're facing right now, earnings reports on Wall street, their own, what they're spending their dollars on, and something that might even be.

And you're saying it's this generation, but it could be next generation and could not be maybe in their lifetime.

How do you think about doing this?

Because most people aren't able to do it.

And how are you thinking about shifting mindsets and paradigms to where they're thinking longer term versus just the here and now?

That's a great, it's a great question.

And from my perspective, there are a couple of answers.

We think beyond necessarily our own particular lifetime and we think about our children's generation and the descendants.

But shifting from your quarterly earnings, what is the return this year to a longer term horizon is challenging.

I think, I think what we're looking towards is enabling just a better life for, you know, for the future generations.

And not just a better life, but a higher quality of life.

You know, the sort of point of sort of evolution over time is, is that we'll now be enabling things like space travel.

We will be enabling a reduction of energy need and energy being the main source of, of, of, of, you know, input to things like water, purific food production just expands, expands human development for the world.

So I think that's the vision that we have now.

To be fair, to survive as a company as well, you have to think about, well, what are the nearer term commercialization opportunities that you can achieve on the way to that vision?

And so a company like ours, excuse me, a company like ours is commercializing some of the leading technologies that we developed on the way to fusion.

And for us, that comes back to our high temperature superconductors.

And so those technologies, things like that, have a near term revenue potential that moves the markets today.

And that really keeps you on your path, on your long term path.

But the vision is not only about bettering human life.

It's about there's a Geopolitical and a national dimension.

If you talk about the future of energy and the control of energy, and you talk about the US for instance, and its position in the world, well, most conflict begins around resource scarcity and the ability to control access to energy.

You look at that with Russia and in Europe and Gazprom, for instance.

And so whoever really unlocks this fusion energy first, frankly, geopolitically, is going to dominate the future of energy.

And that's how I talk to a lot of people about that, about how, you know, if we lose our advantage, at least in the US as a leader in innovation and technology and in the uk, you know, I think we're going to, we're going to really, really get behind our, our ability to influence geopolitics.

Wow.

Yeah.

So it's the generational feel good story.

Hey, we want a better world for our children.

But you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

There are other countries that are doubling down on fusion and we want to be leading because it's such a huge advantage and we want to be able to innovate on our terms versus just chasing everybody.

I'll tell you, we have been in this country for the last decade putting together a roadmap to achieve fusion and we have struggled with putting the right amount of funding to realize that.

But China has now taken the exact roadmap that we have developed and is acting on it rapidly.

So there are news stories now out there.

You can see satellite images of China duplicating and improving on our national ignition facility, which is the world's highest energetic lasers in the world, about almost 200 of them, which by the way, has, has also national security mission in addition to a fusion mission, you know, and, and replicating.

In fact, our own company has a few startups now in, in, in the, in, in China that, that's replicating our exact, exact design.

So, you know, I, I think we cannot underestimate this, this, this race that we're in now.

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Yeah, so interesting.

So from a leadership perspective, the skills are, I mean you have your, your PhD, your doctorate in this stuff, but there's, you're like a science focused person, but you're also president and you're thinking about it on a com, on a commercial side.

So what is the gap between, I'm just curious, like navigating the lab versus the commercialization and being a, choosing a path where you've really got to have a foot in both worlds.

You got to be able to speak the language of the lab and speak the language of leadership.

And if you just take a great scientist and say, hey, guess what, you're president of a company, it'd be a disaster.

If you took a great commercial president and said, hey, you need to go run experiments and be in the lab, it'd probably be a disaster.

You've got to bridge the gap.

So how are you thinking about the skill wise, language wise, leadership wise.

And now you introduce an awareness of geopolitical stuff that's, that's fair.

So I think when I was doing my PhD, which, which by the way, I ended up studying hydrogen and electrolysis, which, which is the process of, of splitting water and, and producing hydrogen.

So, so my, my academic work, when I was doing that, that research, I mean, I realized that frankly I was, I was not the top, the top genius in the room and I wasn't, I wasn't making groundbreaking discoveries, but I was, what I was doing was, was translating the work that was being done in the lab in putting it into what we call techno economic assessment, doing, doing a technical assessment of that work so that the, you know, the markets could understand it, so that a business could understand it.

And I found myself personally in the position of best, best sort of the best position for me being in between the research and the science and the commercial world.

And that I think is the right place for a leader to be in this space.

Like you said, there is a situation that you don't want to be in where you know, you're, you've, you've got a leader working in the lab or vice versa.

Now I think, I think for, from my perspective we, you know, we need to, to take the mindset of R D and put it into the mindset of how does this become a widespread, societally widespread accepted technology and commercially viable.

And those are two different things, overlapping.

One is economic.

We need to compete with the market economics and provide a cost competitive power solution.

The other is about community opinion and societal opinion.

And so you know, for those things you need to be understandable and you need to be, to be able to translate basic research in the lab and for, for a way and scale it up in a way that can be economical.

And I've seen in my research when I was doing some work with, with, with some labs at Columbia, some fantastic ideas, never see the light of day, that deserve to see the light of day because they, they could not find a commercial, commercially viable path.

So what's your advice to people who are in the lab who are putting their hearts and souls in this stuff and now they've been getting funding from a source that's drying up or it can't, it just can't keep rolling and now they're.

These great scientific breakthroughs are never going to maybe really help people.

Well, first of all, call me up.

Second of all, Michael, can we.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Second of all, I would say put, you know, put some thought to, or work with somebody around that business model.

You know, I always, I work with a lot of really bright people in my company, technically gifted people, really geniuses.

And I say to them now I need to develop a financial model and a business case and take that technology and demonstrate how you are providing what is your value proposition above and beyond the status quo.

Benchmark it and put it, put it in a way that is understandable.

And then you can, you can get seed capital.

You know, if you lose funding, for instance, from a grant program from the, from the government, there are a tremendous amount of venture capitalists out there who invest in seed, you know, seed fund these, these startups.

So these are very early stage startups.

So I think, I think that I would encourage those, those bright people to not lose hope.

So what are the pros and cons of?

I got, well, I got two different questions.

One, I want pros and cons of government funded research versus venture capital.

And the other is the chicken and the egg.

So you've got a problem with an energy problem.

We're going to explore fusion versus oh, I'm geeking out about fusion and the possibilities now.

Let me find a business case for it.

So either one of those questions are on my mind.

Which one do you want to take?

Well, that's absolutely right.

You have to look at the motivations and put yourself in the shoes of your stakeholders is what it comes down to of the, of the investors or of the donor.

So those are two different, you know, different distinctly motivated stakeholders.

You know, a government is going to give you a grant because it believes that your work fits the mission of whatever the office is that you're, that is supporting you.

You know, whatever that, that department, that agency is Doing it thinks that what you're doing is going to support that mission.

On the other hand, an equity investor typically wants to see some sort of near term return or some, some potential for IP or value value.

Create IP value creation.

Different motivations.

So separate different motivations.

And so, you know, you gotta, you gotta explain it to them in terms that they'll understand if you come, you know, if I, if I have people come to me and I do actually have a lot of people within my company sort of in internally pitching an idea so that I can then, you know, go and find resources for that.

And they say this is a fantastic idea, like a specific material that we'd like to study and do more research on.

I need to then take that and I need to link it with an interest of one of those stakeholders.

Now a government grant, sure, it's more of a direct process or a straightforward process of connecting the dots between, you know, an objective and the work.

But an investor needs to understand what's the return, but also is it fit their mandate.

And so, you know, it has to be looked at through that lens.

But also does this, does this align as a, you know, within our company with the technology roadmap that we're, that we're advancing and also with the narrative that we're saying and we're telling, does this, does this further the work that we're doing?

So, you know, the, all of those strategic questions have to be considered and put into sort of a business case for each technology that we're looking at.

It's, it's big.

And I'm, I'm just trying to think through what is the skill set, what are the big skills leaders in that space need one.

You gotta cast a strong vision.

And then there's this idea of I just.

The word that keeps coming up is like being a translator of the commercial space and the science space.

And I, as the world progresses and I'm thinking about AI a lot too and these different technologies come on that, that seemed to me the, the value of that translation skill is accelerating in terms of what it's worth.

And then how does one cultivate that skill?

And I think you're an interesting place to respond to that question.

What is that thing, this translation and what did you, what are you doing to cultivate that?

That's a great question.

It really gets back to, I would say emotional intelligence and reading the room.

You know, I have learned over many years of both being the researcher, the academic with an idea that I wanted to see get funded or get out there and then the one evaluating the technology and the sort of proposal, I have learned that I need to look from the perspective of the one I am speaking to.

And that might sound simple, but it's actually much harder in reality than one would think.

And it's true of anything in your career or any work situation, trying to understand what is it that is going to produce value for your company and for your boss and for your investor versus what is a great idea.

And, and, and I think that is, is fundamentally where emotional intelligence comes in.

By understanding what makes people tick and motivates them.

I mean, I, I spent most of my life in my professional career thinking what it's, it's about.

You know, I just want to accumulate more and more knowledge.

You know, I went and did a PhD and that's fantastic.

But I think as you work to get more influence within a corporate environment, it's about leveraging what you know and what other people know and the broader environment in which you operate to achieve your objectives.

So what, what are some ways and advice people you give to people to understand what others like, what makes them tick, what's their perspective.

So you can anticipate it, whether it's a trip to Mar a Lago or whether it's a trip, you know, wherever.

What, what are you doing to prepare for those moments?

I mean, there's some very tangible, straightforward things that I do.

So I, I had, as you know, Ben, I'm at a lot of conferences, running around, meeting a lot of new people, talking to people with, with a variety of backgrounds, you know, understand levels of understanding of things like fusion or energy.

So I will research them.

Whoever I'm speaking with do a lot of that.

I look to understand what their backgrounds are, what they've done in the past.

For instance, if I'm meeting with a congressperson, I want to understand, you know, what's motivating them.

I will, I will, I will also, I would say more, more internally get to know the person well.

And I think, you know, the, you may have seen the show Severance, right, where they, where they have severed people.

I've been watching it, but they have people completely, completely disconnect.

Not, not pitching here for Apple.

But it's a, it's a good, it's a good show.

So completely like, you know, your brain shuts, you know, switches to work versus versus home.

And I find that fascinating because in reality and in my life, the lines blur so, so, so much between work and personal.

And I find that to my advantage.

So we do business with people that we trust and that we like.

And it needs to be.

Everything comes back to the relationship.

There's a saying it's so far easier to do business with a handshake than with a 1,000 page contract.

And that, that is the fundamental reality.

So for instance, last year I was, it was incredibly proud to be a part of this new program that the US government, the UK government and Tokamak Energy are doing.

It's a trilateral deal for an investment in upgrade into our operating Tokamak facility to advance research and advance the pilot plant readiness.

How do we do that?

We worked closely with the human beings in both of those agencies to understand motivations, to be frank with one another and, and to, to put a deal together that would satisfy their stakeholders.

It's not just understanding who you're dealing with.

It's understanding, you know, what you, Ben, are coming to the table with and what you, what, what motivates you and what motivates the people that influence you.

So there's a whole sort of, you know, stakeholder mapping here that, that you know, you can do in your head or you can just sort of, you can just sort of map it out.

Yeah.

Such great insights.

And I think people feel like that's a waste of time.

Like, well, I know what I'm doing, I'm going to get in there.

I know why.

To map out all these stakeholders want me to do my research.

And it's because I was like that.

I was like that too.

Yeah.

And I think that if you want to make a bigger contribution in the world is actually not about you.

Right.

It's you got to make it about the people.

You want to get all of this accomplished through and align it in a way that people can get for.

Because people really don't want to help you.

Right.

They really want to help themselves and their own intermission.

And it's not, I don't think it's like a, a greediness or self centered thing, but maybe we're primarily geared to think about our own interest.

It's a scarcity of time really is what it is, you know.

You know, and I think it's about mutual, yeah, mutual self interest, enlightened self interest, whatever they call it.

But yeah, you talk about where, maybe I'm preempting your question, but you talk about, you know, failures.

I, I have seen that happen where I didn't understand what motivated people.

And I said, I have a great idea, I have a great idea and I'll pitch it to a Government agency, or I'll pitch it to a boss and it falls flat.

And I've seen it happen so many times where it doesn't matter how much research and work I do on something, it doesn't stick.

And so it might seem common sense, but it's not intuitive all the time.

Yeah.

And the world is full of great ideas that don't go anywhere.

Great technologies, millions, billions of dollars spent on great tech that never changes the light of the day because they don't really align it to the people that can make it commercialized.

And I love.

I think this interview today brings to light the power of that.

And you're in such an industry where you could literally use fusion for so many different things, but you're choosing to align it in a powerful way that resonates with the people that can help make this thing reality for the world.

And, man, I'm rooting for y'all.

I'm really.

Thanks, Ben.

I want to make it happen.

Everybody, check it out.

So.

So with that said, I got to maybe 20% of my questions today.

Okay.

But finally, we guys have to do a second interview at some point.

Yeah.

Take this last question.

Indirection to go with what.

What's your parting thought for our listeners?

You can talk about fusion, you can talk about some learning that you've had or advice.

Well, I think, you know, in the context of.

Of what we discussed, you know, finding that.

That.

That career nirvana is something that.

That I've always sort of been.

Been.

Been.

Been.

Been.

Been working hard to get to achieve.

And, and that's, you know, understanding.

This is sort of a Venn diagram, understanding where you succeed.

Well, in terms of three things, what is it that you're really good at?

What is it that you enjoy doing and what pays the bills?

And those all.

And I've had.

I've had experiences in different quadrants of those things.

I've, I've, you know, I've commissioned H vac systems in basements.

I've installed rooftop solar.

I've, you know, I've been a, you know, typical engineer.

I've, I've, you know, I find myself, you know, going and speaking at conferences.

And so I think it's.

It's leveraging what it is that you're good at in the.

In the sector that you like working in.

And for me, I love being in energy.

I think it's such an important place to work and to spend, you know, my time, because I do see this century as the one in which we're going to look we're going to, we're going to look at it as a huge step up in our energy system and our general infrastructure as well.

So it's a great time to be in this sector.

All right.

Well, there you go.

Y'all find your own Venn diagram alignment, I guess really get on a mission to find takes some time.

Michael Story is one where, you know, he said he was in different, different circles and he's in the sweet spot.

And I think so many good ideas on casting a powerful vision and even cooler, how to make that vision a reality with with aligning that vision to how it benefits others.

Thanks for coming on the show today, Michael.

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