PJ Ellis (00:38)

So June, mate, June, 2025, right? You said, let's just press go. Momentum is better than perfection. You'll learn on the job. Lots happened, doesn't it? Since we pressed go.

Andy (00:42)

Yeah.

See you after.

Yeah.

Certainly has, 21 episodes.

PJ Ellis (00:59)

On that note.

Andy (01:00)

Momentum is a key thing. Some people say momentum is no good if you're not kind of pushing in the direction, which of course is true. But you do need to have that bit of energy to get going, don't you? And then when you do start, you get caught up in the energy, especially with us, because we've always wanted to work together. And was so much kind of good fun and such pleasant surprises, the journey, hasn't it? It certainly has been for me. And it still feels like we've barely got going. We all know the equation of compounding interest over time. thinks we're now starting

to see the benefits of some of that for me, but what about you?

PJ Ellis (01:33)

Well, precisely that mate, know, I probably can't articulate as well as, you know, an expert in change management and business and what have you. I mean, you bang on mate. think I've learned so much about myself having pressed go, you know, I'm 46, I've probably pressed go a lot before without me really knowing to be fair, but have I pressed go and then moved as quickly as I have before? Probably not. But the challenge,

And let's flip that into the opportunities that as you've just said there, I still feel like we haven't started. And actually we're in the 1 % club of people that start podcasts. 1 % of people that start podcasts, according to some stats, don't get past 20 episodes. A large amount of people that start podcasts don't get past the first five episodes. So 21 is, I mean, we should be celebrating, mate. Where's the old champagne?

Andy (02:29)

What was the Pret A Manger cold coffee?

PJ Ellis (02:31)

got Jack Duckworth's empty pint glass here. Yeah, it is, to be fair. I do like a good old tankard, to be fair, mate. Takes me back to the 60s and 70s, even though I wasn't born in those. Well, I was born in 79. Yeah, I mean, it's, what I like about the momentum thing, though, to be fair, it's like the gym. A lot of people say that you need momentum before you get a routine. So everyone wants that routine, as in, I'm going to the gym tomorrow, and then you get your kit ready and you'll wake up in

Andy (02:33)

⁓ great pint glass.

Mm-hmm.

This show.

PJ Ellis (02:58)

morning and you go, oh God, no, I'll go tomorrow. Well, actually, if you start something, if you press go, you don't want to stop sort of thing. And that's exactly where I am. Bring on episode 22 and 23, which are already in the bank, aren't they?

Andy (03:10)

Yeah, I listened to a podcast with James Clear, Atomic Habits,

It was really just interesting, again, some of the lessons he shared on the podcast, just listening to it when I was on the coach. And I think you remember is, you've got to be able to fail to win. Sounds a strange thing, right? But if you think of Roger Federer, he only, for all the success he had in all those Grand Slam tournaments, do know what percentage of game points he actually won?

PJ Ellis (03:39)

think you

told me this and I think it was a lot lower than you'd expect. Yeah, there we go.

Andy (03:42)

53%.

So that means after every time he lost, he had to be able to clear his mind and go again and win the next time. And I think that's the thing that really helps us all and has helped us. know, if things doesn't go quite right or we don't get the acceptance we want for an invitation or a clip doesn't land, you just dust yourself off and keep going and go again. And that's those sorts of techniques stand the test of time. And James Clear is all about habits, know, creating the right environment.

to enable you to consistently deliver. And I think one thing we did talk about in one of the pods, might be one when you and I were just chatting, was sometimes it's okay to not do 100%. So if you generally go and do a workout for, you want to do an hour, there'll be some days where it's too dark, or it's too wet, or you're too tired. But if you can just go, and I sometimes go and I just do 20 minutes, and it keeps my momentum going, it keeps my series of ticks and wins going, even though some days,

it'll be 100%. Some might only be five, some will be 50, but it keeps that momentum going, which I think is being key to getting through this landmark for the pods.

PJ Ellis (04:54)

Yeah, 100 %

mate. I do struggle with it sometimes. I ebb and flow around that sort of stuff. And where I struggle is I don't do those five minutes instead. I think, I haven't been able to do those 60 minutes, if that's the theme we're going along. And I don't do the five just to top it up sort of thing. And that's a learn. I spoke to a school last night and I had you very front and centre on this pressing go, but also that confidence that I've never really had as a kid, quite a socially awkward kid.

But I find that confidence comes through doing things, I suppose. You know, just when you start doing those things, you start speaking up, you start failing, you start learning. And those detours that come with doing things actually do... I don't know, I think it sets people apart, but equally, it gives you those lessons that you can learn on the job. And you say that a lot, don't you? Like work experience, apprenticeships, you you learn on the job. And I think...

Certainly for me, I've learnt a lot from doing this, not just from listening to the people that have joined us on the podcast, but also who am I? You know, I'm reading this book at the moment, The Purpose Pursuit by Hannah Miller. It's really interesting. And there was a chapter I read last night. I couldn't sleep very well last night, but it was talking about true strengths. And it says here, you know, there's loads of sort of activities. And one of those activities is to ask people what your strengths are.

Andy (05:55)

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (06:13)

The point here I think she's making, because I haven't finished the chapter yet, is that a lot of us, when we're growing, we learn new skills. So we pick up a musical instrument. We want to learn how to ride a bike, whatever it might be. And sometimes I would say to Andy Dawson, Andy, you know what, mate? You're really good at calming people down. You're really good at knowing what to say in those times. And you'll probably think, or you might think, that's normal. That's normal. Anyone can do that.

PJ, you know what, you're really good at standing up and just keeping people entertained when you've got nothing to say. And I'll be like, well, everyone can do that. And she talks about these strengths that we've already got that sometimes we don't really lean into. Imagine if Martin Luther King, right, Martin Luther King, great communicating, great brilliant people together. He decides, you know what, that's standard. Everyone can do that. I'll learn the flute. know, he might have been a great musician.

Andy (07:02)

Mm.

PJ Ellis (07:10)

But it says here, We learn what we are by also recognising what we are not. And that is certainly something I'm learning on this journey.

Andy (07:16)

Hmm.

Yeah, yeah. Do you remember the, I'll get this saying wrong now, but what was it? Real self-confidence doesn't come from shouting affirmations in the mirror. Real self-confidence comes from giving the world irrefutable proof that you are who you say you are. And with that, the lights have gone out.

PJ Ellis (07:34)

Yeah.

I mean, that's that was quite impactful to be fair, about you were delivering the most beautiful speech. I thought the lights are supposed to come on at that moment. No, but I mean, he was certainly telling you that is the that is the right quote. And yeah, irrefutable. It's like evidence, isn't it? We've said we'll do it and we're doing it. And I'm really proud of that. I mean, you know, when we did press go. Were you worried at all?

Andy (07:40)

Ha ha ha!

you

Do you know what? There's a yes and a no. Obviously, at some point, there's a commercial business here that we're both investing time into. So the way it would be, when's that going to come through? Number one. But not really, no, because I...

PJ Ellis (08:12)

Yeah.

Andy (08:17)

always wanted to do something with you. you know, what does success or what are you about? Because results isn't always about money. And unfortunately, the business world, always judge it through money, isn't it? But when you get older in life as I am, you realise that success can also be happiness, contentment.

level of satisfaction, total enjoyment, all those kinds of things as well. So you learn to get a bit more of a bounce. If we had a KPI scorecard, which would have been quite good fun for us to do maybe at the start.

PJ Ellis (08:47)

We can set one moving forward can't

we?

Andy (08:48)

Yeah,

least some ups and some downs, wouldn't there? But you can't just have a binary measure of commercial income for these sorts of things. If you're doing the right thing and keep doing it, and we are getting people who want to come on and are writing to come on and people want to sponsor the event and people are buying tickets for the event, then those are the signs. Those are the lead measures that you're looking at. And then the lag measure becomes something that might translate into money or whatever it might be at the end of it.

If I'd have just been worried about money, I'd have gone, well, we don't really know what we're doing here. And will anyone come on? You'd have got it your own way, which I think is one of the things you often talk about. And I'm really pleased that our friendship and joint views on life made us dodge that.

PJ Ellis (09:35)

Yeah man, mean it's certainly aligned values that, I mean you can throw away that comment, can't you, you know, get out your own way, do the things that light you up. But actually it is really, really important that lead and lag measure that you say. I think, I wish I'd known a little bit more about that growing up because actually the best job I've ever had, I never got paid for. You know, it was the charity work. Now I'm not saying that you can do that.

You've got mortgages to pay and all that sort of stuff or whatever. But I know this sounds a little bit deep on a Friday morning, but it's 8.29 on Friday the 19th of December. And I've just literally had a little message come through from my daughter saying, I love you, bye. Now, she's also shouted that she left the house this morning at half eight. Two years ago, Matt, I would have been like at the grind, you know, away from the house.

Andy (10:09)

math.

PJ Ellis (10:22)

And to be able to do things like this, not only light me up and refill my cup, not only to listen to these brilliant guests that we're having, but to take those insights away and make me a better person, whether that be better understanding the way I want to operate, who I align with, who I do things with, where I give my time. You say this a lot, and we've hear this a lot across the pod, the time is so valuable. It's the most expensive commodity we've got to give away. And we often give it away to jobs, people.

things that don't serve us. And I'm so buzzing that we've been able to do this, because it does serve me selfishly. I'm not getting paid yet. but it's really been helpful in a number of ways, because ironically it feels like I'm protecting my time, I'm keeping space for this. And off the back of it, the second I pull this fader down and press start,

I am bouncing out this door, either calling you back to talk about the speakers we've just had on or telling my wife and my kids about the stuff and that, for me, that's worth a few quid.

Andy (11:21)

That's nice to hear, mate. Yeah, and I think I've just put my order in for the second Stephen Bartlett diary that I've bought. there's many of these kind of journals, generally about 90 days long. And it does teach you things like, his is a bit like James Clear's, all about the 1%. How do you add up those 1 % over a period of time? But it also teaches you about time blocking. all your hours in the day, and time blocking is such an important thing to either prioritize the emails or prioritize the

pod or preparation which we all forget to or downtime. So that is a great kind of technique for getting you mentally fit. You know we talk about mental health and you know I often reframe it myself as mental fitness.

because you've got to work on your physical fitness, especially the older you get, because all your muscle wastes, and the more your muscle wastes, the weaker you become. And then you've got issues around calories and that kind of thing. So I mental fitness and how you spend your time and how you protect your time is a really important thing as well. yeah, that's my second, that's my renewal. So I did one last year. It was a bit patchy, how I used it. I didn't do it in the first 90 days. But I find that that way of protecting time is a really, really important thing.

valuing

your time and people listening out there, especially entrepreneurs, if you can pay someone 20 pounds an hour and you can earn 100 pounds an hour, pay people 20 pounds an hour to do some of those tasks for you. Don't get caught up in trying to do everything.

PJ Ellis (12:50)

So I'm just jumping in. If you're enjoying these conversations, well, we are bringing those to life at Witton Grid live at Millennium Point in Birmingham on the 30th of January, 2026. 300 people, real talk, life lessons, even a moment to breathe, proper takeaways you can use straight away. Get your tickets at wittongrid.co.uk forward slash register. It's going to be a good one, Bab. Right, let's get back to the conversation.

Andy (13:21)

I know someone at the moment who's building a fitness business.

and he won't trust people enough to do things for him. So he ends up doing everything and he's very, very close to burning out. And every time you talk logically about that equation of your earnings per hour versus the value of a task per hour, they nod and go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then they say, but you know, I like to make sure everything's done the way I want it, you know? So again, from a mental fitness perspective, that's, you know, a really good way of trying to reframe some of the activities we can

maybe pass on or give up. And we'll be announcing something around that soon, I think, hopefully, how we're going to get a few people to help us a wee bit as well, aren't we?

PJ Ellis (14:06)

I mean that is my struggle mate if you if you hadn't sort of headlined that with these geese are setting up a fitness Apple business, which I clearly aren't I thought you'd be talking to me there because I have this conversation my wife all the time about I know people out there that you can pay 20 30 pound an hour whatever who are experts in the things that I know I'm not good at I'll push this back to you then so anyone's listening right who isn't making money

So you're in that growth period where you know you can dedicate that hour to trying to make the money, but the money's not there. How do you convince them to say, well, that transaction of putting that 20 pound out and not necessarily at the start having anything back, that's a big risk to take, isn't it, for some people? Because it feels like you're losing money.

Andy (14:55)

course it is and you've got to be in the privileged position maybe where you can afford to do that. So when we set up Curium Solutions back in 2008 we'd left corporate jobs.

and we didn't pay ourselves any money at all for the first three months. In fact, we paid ourselves 500 pounds just for Christmas so we could just spend a bit on the family and stuff like that. that very lucky, right? And not everyone's in that position. We live in a city where there's too much youth unemployment. There's loads of entrepreneurs and you can't expect that everyone can do that. So that's the first bind. If that is you though, there's groups that you can join, there's things like the chamber where you can

get access to information, meet like-minded souls and learn from each other. So that's how you maybe tackle that first bit. But if you've got a bit of capacity or a bit of leeway, bit of runway, then...

Maybe focus on what we're talking about lead measures, won't we? If you are trying to create a business driving some cash, well, what are the really important things you need to Really important things you need to do to succeed, okay? Maybe that's shaking hands, networking, maybe it's making sales calls, maybe it's sending emails, maybe it's bumping into the right sort of people at the right sort of event or asking for introductions, but it probably isn't to do with just updating your social media feed or playing around with a website.

copy and content or trying to build a website yourself because that is important but the most important thing is probably doing those hundred sales generation activities a week to try and get that money coming in further down the line. It's just an important thing to remember.

PJ Ellis (16:30)

Yeah, 100%. And he's that a little bit about, know I'm not condoning, know, go out there and fail fast, I get that, but don't risk your life savings or your parents' house on it. But do think a lot of that is also trusting your gut a little bit as well? Do you have to do that in life?

Andy (16:49)

Yeah, yeah, there's definitely a bit of trust in your gut. And it's never been easier to test than it is today, because you can test in so many different formats. You can test on LinkedIn, you can test on other social medias, you can go to events, bump into people and just practice your little speech and see if they go all interesting or they just don't even remember your name when you leave. So it's really, really easy compared to years gone by to kind of test ideas out.

Gut feel is really important. And if you and I were sat here today, 21 episodes in, and really things have flatlined, people haven't responded to things like the event, we'd worked out we're probably busy fools who were just talking out loud to ourselves. I think always trying to have a partner or someone alongside you is really key as well, because it can be a very lonely game, can't it? You you're really isolated.

you're always pushing out and nothing's coming coming back in and we're fortunate we get a lot of interaction both with each other but also the guests and people who listen and people we meet around the city you know people are talking about it

PJ Ellis (17:55)

Yeah. I think it's

important one to get your light back on. There we go. And two, yeah, come on, Matt. I thought you were doing all right. I think now, think, think, yeah, I think for me, the message would be, and this I'm talking to myself, make those decisions quickly and try and do them with and without data. Cause when you move your, your, your sort of gut instinct becomes more in tune.

Andy (18:03)

Pay the electricity bill, need some money.

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (18:21)

You

have to move to make those decisions, but also get that data as quickly as we can, because actually without that data, without these tools that we're using, some of them free, some of them aren't that expensive, we wouldn't know if anyone's listening. And thankfully they are. So lean into that measure as well to make you comfortable that you're going in the right direction. And as you said, I don't think it's the dopamine hits that you get or the endorphin from LinkedIn. Fair enough, use that as a platform.

But I'm really excited to go and press the flesh again. I've joined the chamber recently. I don't know whether that's got anything to do with my Mokka is the president of the chamber. Really excited. Just quickly before we move on, I'm really interested in those journals, mate, because everything I'm seeing at the moment, whether I'm reading something, this book, for instance, The Purpose Pursuit, I'm not on commission, by the way, is...

Andy (18:52)

Three, two,

PJ Ellis (19:11)

almost immediately tells you to get a journal and to do some of the activities that they're asking me. So when we talk about time blocking, one of the pieces in here, which I love, is actually, think we spoke about this briefly before, when you are time blocking, and that's not the Bible, it's not, know, do what you need to do, but sometimes we often think about, right, emails, networking, but actually when we retire, right, that won't define us anymore. So

We should potentially, there's an argument to say time block to do the things that light us up first. So meditate, plunge pause, whatever we're doing, ground work, poetry, reading, spend time with friends, whatever it might be, pick the kids up. Is that where you start?

Andy (19:57)

So a couple things on this. So again, when you talk about journaling, plunge pools and all those kind of things, this day in age you start to get a bit viral, don't you, from people? Okay, so first thing is it's not for everybody. Where I start my day, and I hate it if I can't do this, is walking. So early morning walk, I will...

PJ Ellis (20:04)

you

Yeah, yeah, you do. Yeah.

Andy (20:21)

maybe listen to a podcast, only ever part of the walk. And if I can get a 45 minutes to an hour walk in, looking at trees, being outside, and then try and keep my mind empty. So if I do listen to a pod, I listen to it for the first part of the walk. Then I just let things ruminate. And that really starts my day off. If I can't do that, I struggle. My day's never quite a 10. But if I can do that, I give myself the best possible chance of being a 10.

is

exercise so I try and make sure I can eye windows where I've got an opportunity to lift some weights, go to the gym and I try and do that five days a week, couple of days at the weekend and then try and squeeze in through during the week. So being outdoors from a kind of you know I was surrounded by lettuce fields when I was young so I missed the outdoors so that's important to me and then making time to be physically fit. have in my first Steven Bartlett diary asked you to set your goal or your vision and mine was to live

life on my own terms and part of that I broke it down into a of things but one of the three key goals was practice my physical and mental fitness every day as a key bedrock for performance. I'm getting better!

PJ Ellis (21:29)

And is that working?

Andy (21:32)

I'm getting better. Yeah. And that's one of those things you're never going to, you know, roll away something. We all want to win a gold medal. just, I'm never going to win the gold medal, but I'm always working towards that kind of gold medal type activity. So it'll be a constant habit to get into going back to what James Clear talks about, but definitely, definitely getting better. Yes.

PJ Ellis (21:51)

You're looking ripped, mate. You're looking swole. The kids say swole, don't they?

But you do though, mate. You do look healthy. I know you've been away recently and you've got a bit of a, I don't know whether that's the Jägerbombs or the Aperoski or, yeah. Or you get a little bit of exposure, don't you, Eskime? You always get a tan. What would you do differently, mate, if we started again?

Andy (22:04)

Yeah, good bones, mate.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

⁓ I would have had to have been on this journey already. So if we have started another podcast now.

I'd go, right, let's be really, let's write on a one page who we're targeting, what do we want to talk about, ideal sorts of guests and how do we get them because that'll just help us to build the brand a bit quicker. Because I do get asked, well, what's the key theme of the podcast? So that's probably one thing I'd do differently, but I'd had to have had this experience. Otherwise, you're just looking at a textbook or reinterpreting someone else's.

PJ Ellis (22:30)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Andy (22:49)

Experience so yeah that that probably be the thing for me is just to kind of write write the show a little bit more in advance But I'd have to have been on this journey to be honest. What about you?

PJ Ellis (22:57)

Yeah.

Well, it's really interesting because I like how you've caveated that because it makes perfect sense, isn't it? You know, this hindsight, we talk about the luxury of pressing go. And then if you sit there six months in having spoken to the mayor of the West Midlands, the head of counterterrorism for the police, as to all these brilliant guests that we've had, you know, I can't say the two that are following up, but you know, some, you know, ⁓ a geezer that just basically

became Mr. McDonald's. I mean, yeah, I mean, you're right though. One thing, and I think actually, instead of starting again, the question could be what we do next. I think that's the question. What's that iteration piece? What's that learn? And the learn for me is very much that we started off thinking we were going to be talking about what the future of the workforce looks like for our kids. And we still are.

Andy (23:25)

Here we go.

Yes.

PJ Ellis (23:46)

because it comes back to a lot of these similar themes around resilience and opportunity and stuff like that. But our strap line was the skills you can't Google. And I don't think that's enough anymore personally. So I think it's an iteration piece, which I'm really looking forward to. So what are we really nailing? Do we separate themes across months potentially? That's been a bit of feedback from Tracy. That allows us then to talk strictly to people that have experienced X that want to do Y.

Andy (23:55)

Yeah.

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (24:14)

that have done X and Y together, wherever it might be. And I think that's something I'm excited about because it gives us that opportunity, is that the right word? To then better sort of talk about topics that people want us to talk about. Maybe we should do a bit of a poll, mate.

Andy (24:30)

Yeah, that's a good idea. Always good to get feedback. And remember, we go back to the point where testing in live, it's never been easier to test. This is a great example of that, isn't it? And I think that the themes of kids and young people just keep coming through.

And even, you know, thinking ahead of next year, I'm like you as a dad first and foremost, there's still difficult, you you're reading, there's a lot of stuff now about consultancy firms. I've seen two things, one from AZETS, I think you pronounce it AZETS, and either PwC or KPMG, can't remember who it is. Sending the new recruits to things like pubs to learn people skills or resilience training. And then COVID, you know, has inhibited these skills.

PJ Ellis (25:01)

Yeah.

Brilliant.

Andy (25:15)

Social media and phones definitely holds my voice back, especially my older one Sam. Trying to get him off his phone or stop looking at YouTube when I sat at table has been a challenge over the years. It's a lot better now and some of these conversations we've had when I've shared them have helped with that. Especially the TED.

conversation that we had on one of the episodes. So yeah mate, think we'll have a plan session at some point later and we'll maybe have a bit of a think about that as well and maybe think about getting a bit of help with that.

PJ Ellis (25:38)

Yeah, man.

Yeah, 100 % mate. And that's, I think that's the next step for me. mean, I think this clarity piece has been gained through motion. So I think it's, you know, I think that question to people out there now, not necessarily beat yourself about what I would have done. What isn't that next step? And that is that planning piece. And we can talk a little bit more about what that looks like over the next six weeks and beyond hopefully, because what is happening to me as well now, mate, on the proverbial golf course, people are saying, I've listened to this.

And actually I was thinking, can we talk more about that within my workplace? And that's gone into grief as well, mate. People have said, grief to growth. Is there something coming and talk to us about this? Is there something coming and talk to about how we can connect our paralegals to our partners, all that sort of stuff? So there's definitely something that's coming out of this for a lot of people and be really interesting to see where this momentum will take us. That's what really excites me, ⁓

Andy (26:37)

Yeah, not me.

PJ Ellis (26:39)

Anyway, Merry Christmas, see you later. I'm only joking, I'm only joking. Mate, if someone's listening then, sitting on an idea right now, what would you say to them as we close?

Andy (26:48)

I won't say the obvious, just go. But that is kind of key, isn't it? If you're on an idea, find someone.

PJ Ellis (26:50)

it.

Andy (26:56)

or a group to talk it through with first. I mean, we laugh and joke at ourselves about pondering this for a while until we decide just to go. But even just those times we met and scribbled things down on bit of paper, we wouldn't have got to here if we hadn't done that. So don't forget, there's a bit of a process to go through into testing out an idea. So don't be reckless. When we say just press go, yeah, we weren't being reckless. We'd kind of gone, right, right, there's something here. We don't know what it is. So let's try and find out then.

was a great starting point and if that hadn't worked we'd have found something else.

PJ Ellis (27:28)

Yeah mate, yeah

and I think honestly, genuinely, if I was asked the same question, I've tried to start things before where it was focused around the outcome, that lag piece, rather than what I really wanted to do. know, was I gonna play with passion here and everything else is just a byproduct potentially. And this is what we've done here, we've played with passion. So my advice would be,

You know, really leaning into those things that will light you up, that will get you out of bed, that will, you know, we can't all sing and dance walking into the office. But if there is a part of that that really gets you going, and this does for me, it just ticks a lot of boxes. People I'm doing it with, people I'm learning from, talking, the outlet, you know, the editing piece, that's where I struggle a little bit. It is quite hard, but we'll get some support, won't we? Yes.

Andy (28:15)

Yeah, and just

final one on that, you break down our little process, I guess, it was trying to establish our friendship to see if there's something we could do together. Then it was, what's the idea then? What's the name? Then can we get anyone on it? And then more importantly, can we get anyone to listen to it?

PJ Ellis (28:29)

Yes.

Yeah.

Andy (28:37)

Three, can we keep the momentum going and repeat, repeat, repeat? And now we're on to, can we get people to come and listen to us and join us at the end of January and sponsor us and we're getting yes and yes and yes. So that's the kind of the process and the different gates we're kind of, we are walking through. And it's probably gate seven of a hundred. That's the way to think about it.

PJ Ellis (28:45)

Yeah.

Yeah man,

yeah bring it on. Well I'm looking forward to the next 93 mate, I can't wait. The first seven gates have been fantastic, we've hurdled straight through them. Some have had to sort of navigate slightly around them but I think the hurdling has been quite good. Mooka, I will come and see you soon. Have a lovely Christmas if I don't see you before. But my present is in the post, if it doesn't come, I'm sorry. It might not come to be fair because I haven't ordered anything.

Andy (29:09)

you

Yeah. All right.

your cake

under pressure. See you later mate.

PJ Ellis (29:29)

Yeah, mate, we'll do that. All right, Mooka, see you later.