So what's going on, everybody? Hey.

Oh, how's it going, everybody?

Hey, hey, hey.

Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.

He's back.

Hey. Hey. I'm Derek.

Matt.

And I'm Dave.

And this is the truth.

Respond. No, I'm sorry.

We got another guest today.

Yeah, this is my great friend Pastor Darren. Mel. The end.

Good afternoon, guys. A pleasure to be here.

All right, we're glad to have you. So it's going to be an interesting conversation today. Hopefully everybody's blessed by it. And that's as much as the introduction I'm going to give. Who else wants to start?

Do we want to do that? I know you and I talked about doing that little disclaimer up front.

Yeah, sure. Today's conversation is going to be a little bit heavy. A little heavy. It's going to be really good, though.

So.

So. And one thing that Derek and I were discussing the other day was just the fact that you get out of things, which you expected things. If you're walking into it looking for victims, you're going to find victims. If you're walking in looking for support, you'll find support. If you're looking for a fight, you'll find a fight. And if you're looking for a healthy conversation, then that's what you're going to find.

So I say, if you're tuning in, you best be looking for Jesus, because that's what you're going to find. And if you're looking for everything else, you're probably find that too.

Yeah, well, I mean, so our subject matter today is a little bit. I don't know, some would consider it nowadays controversial.

Yeah. But let me pull up the actual. There was a listener that. That actually started this whole thing. Yeah. Mm.

It's so. It's their fault right now.

It was great because I called.

Exactly right.

I called Darren and I said, hey, let me send you what this person.

This.

This person asked and sent him the text and he wrote back and he goes, I'm excited. I have this exactly locked down. So I'm excited to hear what you have to say. Mr. Darren, are you going to read

the question that they had then?

That's what he's looking for.

Working on it. Work. I think I've got it. I think I sent it to Dave.

I thought we were prepared.

We were prepared.

Well, you know, I'm not perfect. Okay, guys, I know you think I am, but I'm not.

Oh, that's adorable.

All right, I've got it.

Okay.

Yeah, go for it. All right.

All Right.

So this came up, said, a lady I know.

Let's see.

Lady. A lady I know. And I have talked about God before. And so I asked her today where she went to church. She said she was looking for a Presbyterian one. Like, sorry. She said she was looking for a Presbyterian one and said she can't find one because she wants to go to a church that allows gay marriages and can't find one that won't judge her. She also told me her son is gay. So I. So I didn't respond. And she made a comment about. Let's see. She may. I'm sorry, she made a comment about that. I said, well, I don't know what to say. I. I'm literally reading it verbatim. I told her that I believe what the Bible says about homosexual activity and that marriage is between a man and a woman and that we are made in God's image. She believes that too, but she said not in a gender way, but in a spiritual realm, because how could he make a woman in his image and people with disabilities in his image? I really couldn't answer the question. So she also believes that her son was born that way. She said it had something to do with the chromosomes. She also told me that she went to psychology school. Please help.

All right, so that. All right.

So there's a lot there.

Guess what we're talking about today, guys?

Chromosomes. Chromosomes.

Darren shaking his head. He's like, no, no, no.

But we have a kind of an expert, right?

Yep.

Expert in the field. Darren is an expert. And we are excited to have this conversation today.

A hundred percent.

So how do we want to start, Darren? You want to kind of give us the snapshot of what you are?

I think what you do, introduce yourself a little bit?

Yeah, sure, sure. My name's Darren Mel. I've known Dave for many years, over 20 years. And we went to church together. And I'm a believer born again. I'm a pastor now. And I lived as a quote, unquote, gay Christian for quite a while before. And the Lord really delivered me from that and has redeemed the years that the Locust had stolen. I've been married now for 20 years to my wife, and we have two kids. And the Lord has graciously redeemed me and brought me through something that is really difficult to come through. And it's pride. It's coming through confusion and has brought me into his truth. And so that's what. That's what brings me here today is his grace and being transformed through faith. In Jesus. Cool.

Awesome. Good.

Good snapshot.

Awesome.

All right, so what do we think? You want to start with some questions? You want to.

You said you had a bunch of questions, so.

Well, I mean, I basically have a. I kind of went through, like, I use chat GPT, if I'm being fully honest. And I kind of asked for, like, what are the biggest arguments when it comes into this stuff? I know, right?

Hey, it can.

It's fine. I don't.

It's not.

I don't hate it.

You do hate it. You, like, sigh every time I bring something to you that's been chat.

Anyways, you can use things. There are tools.

Yeah.

So in this particular tool, I just kind of essentially just asked it, what's the. What's kind of like the top 10 biggest arguments when it comes to this particular scenario? So we could go through those. Or, Darren, if maybe you have. You've had a lot more experience with this. So what do you typically find, like, are your top couple of. They're constantly coming at me, and this is what they say. This is their argument.

Yeah. Well, you know, you had a question kind of framed up to you guys.

Yeah.

That Dave read, and I think that's a great place to start. It has several points that we could discuss in there. And, you know, it.

What.

In my experience, as I've been in this ministry space helping people safely leave LGBT and help family members minister to their loved ones trapped by those beliefs, I found that the definition of what love is and what truth is is really what's at stake. And what is the authority of truth? Where does it come from? You know, where. And my lived experience, having once lived as a gay man and fully believing that God made me gay, and now realizing that, no, God didn't make anybody gay. That sin becoming your core identity, and then now my core identity being in Christ, I'd say that the biggest question here is what's. I saw the person shopping for a church. They're making truth claims, and then trying to find a church that supports those claims. Right. And. And then the. The ontology. She's starting with the ontology, which is what does it mean to be human? Like, we're created. And her question about, you know, well, didn't God make. You know, how. How is it that God made disabled people and, you know, LGBT and, like, if he made these people, you know, that kind of question. So that's kind of what has been brought forward to the table.

Yeah.

And I was wondering if you want to kind of break those things down Maybe, Yeah.

So obviously she's looking for a church that fits essentially her narrative.

Right.

Well, I mean, she's not the only one that does that. Sure.

I mean, and this isn't the only subject matter that people try to go and find churches.

Oh, for sure.

That support themselves. People like, it's not uncommon for someone to go and want to find like minded people or people that support ideals or things they're thinking or struggling with. And, and you know, that's normal. But at the same time, yeah, trying to, you're trying to put the truth you're looking for at the forefront instead of accepting what truth is going to be when it's given to you. And that's a hard battle. Like, we want to go to God and go, hey, this is how it should be. Right. Tell me I'm right. And he's like, let me tell you, because I'm actually the one that wrote these rules. Which ones? Which ones you need to listen to right now. And. But yeah, I mean, it's funny, as I saw that happening a lot. I saw it a lot, especially when I lived up north, there was a lot of people trying to do that around 2020, especially because it was election time and with all the COVID stuff, and people had some big, strong notions about how they think things should be one way or another in all kinds of ways. And they were looking for people groups and some of them left the churches they went to because they wanted to find a church that was going to support their ideals, whether it be a full conservative, a full liberal, a full whatever. And so this is, like I said, this is very common, but it's hard to approach because people, if they're actively and very openly telling you that they're looking for these things, sure. You know, immediately we, we. There's a part of us that wants to try to correct them on the moment. Like, of course that's not the way.

But the ultimate question comes down to are you claiming to be Christian or are you not?

Right.

Like this whole uprising against Disney. You have to boycott Disney. Disney never said they were Christian.

Right, Right.

But as soon as you go to the altar, as soon as you give your life to Jesus, say, I now want to start living like a Christian. Okay. Now I'm going to hold you to a different set of standards. So if you're trying to find a church that fits your narrative, you're bucking against the standards that were set up and the rules that were set up. So I'm, I'm holding you accountable as The Bible says I'm not. That was the other thing she said, too. And the question was, I'm looking for a church that's not going to judge me. We're not judging you. If you say you want to be a Christian, we're holding you to the Christian standard.

Yeah.

It's basically like just. It builds right off of what you said. Who is Lord? You or him? If you're making him Lord, then you listen to what he says, not what you want him to say.

It's good. Well, we should do our intro.

We should do our intro.

Yeah.

We're getting into the conversation. We haven't even took our break or prayed or any of that stuff, Right?

Yep.

It's good that he keeps us in line.

I know.

That's the.

That's because he's the host

production.

Yeah, right.

Hey, you know, we keep it. Most of it in, I think so it's fun. I don't think he. Yeah, sorry.

You guys know that some of it I take out, some I leave it.

Welcome to the truth response.

Sam,

Darren, are you open to praying?

Absolutely.

That's what I figured. He's a pastor, after all.

That's true.

That's true.

All right.

Great relationship with the Lord. He lives in me. I know how to pray.

I love it.

All right, go ahead and pray then for us.

All right. Heavenly Father, I thank you that you are the king of the universe, that you created us and you called it. Very good. And Jesus, I thank you that you loved us so much, that you died on the cross for our sins and you have brought us out of darkness and into light. And Holy Spirit, I thank you the gift that you are to us, that you dwell in us, that you are the spirit of truth, that you convict us of sin and the truth, and that the word of God, the Bible teaches us righteousness and all things that are true and good. So I pray God that you will anoint us, anoint our words, open the ears and the hearts of those who are listening, that they'd be able to receive the spirit of love that is prevalent here today. In Jesus name, amen. Amen. There you go.

Beautiful.

So if you don't mind me asking, Darren, in that situation that we talked about before the break where the person is looking for a church, that under their conditions, how would you approach. What would be your first approach to that person?

I would ask, you know, they've made some assumptions here, presuppositions about the church that they're looking for. So they were saying that they already Believe that people are born this certain way and that's by God's design, that the chromosomes are part of sexual orientation, that they've been in psychology and so they know. And I think all of that is the excuse that's paired with, with I don't want to be judged because she has a perception that we're being judged. And Dave, you kind of talked on that of, you know, the fear of being judged. But judgment is good. Scripture is good for correction, rebuke and training in righteousness, right? And, and being trained in righteousness. That means living without sin, living in the righteousness of Christ. And so do you want to go to a church that is going to tickle your ears, you know? Second Timothy four, three. Is it something. Oh, well, I, I don't want to talk about gender, you know, but yet the scripture tells us right in the beginning that in the beginning he created the male and female, and in his image he created them. And so you're going to have to reconcile with that. And if you say, well, I want the Bible, except for that part, then perhaps, you know, the Lord will eventually mature that individual and realize as she steps into a church, because I joined a gay church, a gay affirming church, and God got me out of it by his grace. So if you're really pursuing truth rather than just a place to affirm what you believe, if she's really a truth seeker, that's what I would feel out for her. Is she seeking the truth or is she just seeking a place to feel affirmed and, and part of a community? Because Jesus is the head of the church, right? Colossians 1:18. He's the head of our church. He's directing us. And if we just want to adopt his teachings but not have him be our head, then, you know, we're just going in different places in our understanding of what it is to be part of the church and what the function of the church is. As a church, we're called to make disciples according to Jesus teachings, with the Holy Spirit empowering us to do that. And I believe we're able to do that. The Holy Spirit through you guys, through me, all believers, when we speak the word of God, it comes with power and conviction. And so that's what we would do. If I were to meet this lady, I would follow the lead of the Holy Spirit and find out what are the truths to discern where she is and encourage her and equip her and empower her towards Christ, which the Holy Spirit will lead us to do that. So that's brilliant.

I would almost argue that a lot of people are looking for. They're not looking for church. They're not looking to, like you said, make disciples. They're not following that. They're looking for essentially a support group. They're looking. I want to go to a building where people are going to tell me it's okay and give me a big hug and then send me home and make me feel better. And then they get slapped around a little bit and they're like, I don't

like how this feels.

Like, it also sucks when you work out. When. When I leave you. Like, you're in a lot of pain when you leave out, when you work

out, which is why I don't work out.

I usually feel better after I work out, even though I'm in the pain. So.

Yep.

Well, you know what, the way you laid that out, like, let's. Let's. Let's dive in one step at a time. So one of the things that she said was that she believed that you're born that way. Like, what's the truth behind that?

Well, the truth is that we're born human and we do not come with desires directed in one thing, except in sin. I mean, we could get into original sin and the deep doctrines of that. But I think we can all agree that humankind presently is born into sin, and that's our nature outside of Christ. You know, John 3:16 through 21, the world stands condemned, but Jesus come to save us, not to judge us. Right, because we already stand condemned. So we're not born gay, but we're born in sin. And the devil will use whatever he can, any type of sin to trap you. And for me, it was homosexuality. It was turning my needs into sin through the means of desire, of beliefs. So Satan transformed my, or programmed my mind, if you will, taught me how to meet my needs of a man in lust with other men rather than in Christ. Now that I have the real thing, I know what brotherhood is. You know, I'm like, wait a minute. This whole thing was just. I had a need for brotherhood and for being known by men and being in guys with the guys, you know, And I was rejected as a guy. I was rejected by the guys as a guy and is rejected by the girl as a guy. But then I found the gay community accepted me, you know, and so it was deception. And so are we born that way? No, but we are born in sin. And the templates that Satan uses, all the deception that he uses, this is just one of the Ways. Yep.

And I think right now we have kind of a pandemic. My associate pastor and I were talking about this not too long ago and how a lot of these people now are basing their identity in how they feel. I feel this way, therefore I am this way. It's like, no, that's not your identity. Your identity is a son or daughter of God. This is a temptation you are facing and you're choosing whether or not to follow that road or reject the road. Right? Yes.

No. Yeah.

Okay,

so, okay, a follow up question though, to that. So you're not born gay because, you know, obviously that's, that's the act of sinning lustfully. But what about. Are you, are you born into that attraction? What about that?

You know, I think attractions are based on beliefs and what you're taught. And so as my beliefs changed about myself, about other men, about God, about creation, my desires changed. In James 1, it tells us that God's not the one tempting us, but we're tempted by our own evil desires. And so those desires can change. It's called sanctification. Taking the thoughts captive, having your mind transformed by the reading of the Word and knowing the truth, that'll set you free. And so, yes, it's more prevalent today because we're teaching that it's a way of being rather than a way of acting out needs and beliefs. And so I think as we, we normalize and baseline under a pagan or satanic worldview that there is no purpose behind our bodies, there is no purpose in sex except pleasure. And we're centering pleasure or lust and meaning in our behaviors, then, yeah, it will seem normal. And, and you know, Derek, a lot of people say, well, I never chose to be homosexual. Okay. I didn't choose that desire. I remember though, when, when I was praying about, I said God, I remember wanting to date girls in middle school and having no inclination toward guys. Like, I was a guy, you know, just a. Another guy in the neighborhood with all the other guy friends that I had. And I'm like, what changed? You know, what came in. And this is where you put your PG13 label up, right? But you know, I was really shamed for my body. I was a very skinny twig of a boy. And, and Satan told me that if I pleasured myself to pictures of men that I wanted to be like, I would become like them. And. And I was actually molested and learned what self pleasure was by a boy in the locker room. And. And so I didn't even know what that was. So My first experience with that was homosexual abuse or grooming by another boy who himself was groomed because I met him years later. And I'll just leave it at that. But so that became the first experience in that. And then you go through puberty and you're doing that, and your brain is wired sexually for that. So I didn't know that that was doing that. But then, you know, you give it five years, and I get to college, and I'm trying to be this celibate Christian who's not giving into his gay temptations, but then gay guys who claim to be Christian are hitting on me. And now all of a sudden, I have the first time that someone, a man, is giving me attention in a way that I've never experienced attention, because all my guy friends, I was the brunt of all the jokes. I was the punching bag, all these practical macho jokes and what have you. So when that love comes in for the first time, or you think it's love, and then you experience sodomy or sexual relations with the same sex while it's scary, it fills the gap of knowledge that I didn't have. And then it became, well, this must be what love is. And so that justified the curiosity, and now it became a belief. And so the lack of having my needs met in brotherhood, you know, I have it now. You know Pastor Jimmy, right? Derek or Dave? Yep. Pastor Jimmy was the brother that loved me and Jesse, my other brother, and Dave and Scott and Lewis. You know, like, I had these brothers come alongside of me and love me in a godly way. And that was a contrast to the gay community that I knew before, and having a boyfriend and all that kind of stuff, and then being married to my wife. So God brought in his truth and demonstrated what agape. What brotherhood phileo love is. And it was a contrast. And I was able to reprocess. Wait a minute. I am fully a man. You know, when my pastor Jimmy took me to the gym and we start working out, you know, he's like, man, you know, your shoulders are really, you know, filling out.

And.

And I tell you what, the first time I was able to go and flex my chest, I'm like, I'm a man. I'm a man. I'm a man. And all of us do that body shaming broke off. It broke off. And. And it was just all these hooks of lies of that gay identity started falling off. These. These false beliefs that had become part of who I was and what I thought my identity was. And God replaced them. And said, no, this is who you are in me. This is. You're fully man. You're a man among men, you know?

Yep.

Well, that. I hope that kind of answers. Kind of a long answer, but, yeah.

No, that was great.

So, Darren, do you. Okay, so you said a lot of things. I've. So I've researched this, and I'm leaving you as the expert today. But I find a lot of the same things that you've talked about even in your own story. There's rejection, there's insecurities, there's a trauma. You had a trauma there, which is incredibly common, from what I can understand. And then, of course, there is the need for acceptance and justification. And you named all those things within your story. Is that something you also see as completely commonplace in. In the people that are struggling with this?

I would. I would say not only is it common, Satan will use any means possible to confuse, to distort and destroy. Right. So whatever it is. And I want to tell you the story. I went to Men's Breakaway with Dave. I don't know if you were there or not. The Men's Breakaway at Camp Geneva or wherever. That was for Summers of God.

Camp Geneva. It wasn't Camp Geneva, but I think I remember that, though.

Yeah. And I got to share my testimony with a bunch of guys, and we went to dinner, and this Gentleman was probably 75 years old, came and asked me if he could join me. And he said, darren, I want you to know something. He said, I've experienced the same childhood that you had, only I didn't turn out gay. He said, I became a womanizer. And he said, I realized that Satan, and he's the one that really helped me understand this. Satan will use whatever he can get, and he'll run with it. And he said, I used to hate LGBT people, and I thought that they were so messed up. You know what they said? I know. They're just like me. Their sin is just a different expression.

I love that.

So what's common is sin, and it expresses itself in whatever it expresses itself and the way out of that. There's one way. It's Jesus, but the path out and the healing is going to be unique as the way that they got into sin.

Yeah. I've been reading through again the screwtape letters by C.S.

lewis.

Yeah.

Have you read it?

I have, yeah.

And actually, it's amazing how what you just said with the two scenarios, it just reflects the kind of things that you see in those letters between the one demon, the other demon, he usually gives them two options. He's like, all right, so you can push them this direction or you can push them that direction. It's like, you know, whatever direction is going to be the one that's the most ambitious for their calls, so to speak. And it's wild because, like, yeah, that you. Your situation and the other gentleman's situation. Almost like two different sides of that coin where it's like, well, I couldn't push him that way, so I pushed him this way.

Yep.

Yeah, that's a fascinating read. If, if you haven't watched it or read takes some time. Don't go too fast. Allow yourself to really kind of. Because it's wild to think about what the. The possible tactics of our enemy.

Yeah, it's really eye opening, for sure.

Yep.

And I do know in some of the. The private conversations I've had with people who are still struggling with this is obviously they lean towards. Why are you picking on me? Well, aren't. It's, you know, why is. Why is the. What do they call witch hunting?

Right?

Like, why is the church just so hyper focused on this? It's like, probably because this is the biggest voice right now. It's the one that we're fighting against because it keeps popping up. But I mean, like, you know, you look at it says, you know, it says that the. That God doesn't consider any sin higher, you know, than the rest. It's like that it's all the same. Sleeping with your girlfriend outside of marriage, you know, your pick. I literally. That's the only one I can think of.

Well, there's plenty. Well, I mean, right though.

You're right, though.

It is, it is. It's. It's the loudest voice and the one that everybody's talking about. Well, not everybody, but a lot of people are talking about a lot. And that's the reason, like, when you guys first told me, hey, this is a subject we're going to talk about, what did I say?

You said, I don't want to talk about that again.

I said, what? I'm tired of this. That's what I said.

I am so tired.

But see, I think the church was the one that set this up, right? We dropped the ball by stopping the whole conversation on sex. Sex became a. We don't talk about it. You know, we don't discuss this in church. And, and with that, that shame of even thinking about sex, Right. Even in the correct manner and within the confines of marriage between a husband and wife. Like, even with that, it was like, it's It's a shame feeling that the church has placed upon people.

Yep.

In fact, like, even. Even in, like, my own life, like, I. I think back, and I'm like, wow, I wonder if that mentality is. Is what. Is what actually started everything that I've. I've gone through, like, with the pornography addiction and. And all of that, like, it's all. It's all in the same. Right. So, like, I. I just. I think the church has dropped the ball in. In that way, and I think it has set the T for this whole thing to be so big as it is.

I think you're right. But I think you also need to think of the other side of that coin as well, because it's not just an undercorrection, it's an overcorrection. There were people that were going overboard one way and then underboard another way.

Yeah.

So that helped. That what you're talking about. And this is the ingredients is there needed to be a happy medium in which we can have these conversations and guide people no matter what state of life they're in the correct ways. But when you're not doing it or doing too much to maybe try to overcorrect it, then that. That area becomes a gray area where everybody wants to play. And that's where the devil's playground really starts. Yep.

And everything like that thrives in darkness. Obviously, if it starts feeling dirty, it feels fun. Right. And if it's, you know, it's why a lot of people, they'll sleep together outside of marriage, and the minute they get married, all of a sudden, sex is no fun anymore because now it's okay.

Right?

Yeah.

Which is a blast. So I get a. I have a huge. What's the word? I can't think of the word respect for, like, for instance, even at the. I was at the Relate conference last week, and the gentleman who put the whole thing on, who's the pastor of Bayside Church at the al.

Not.

Couldn't make him in trouble, but. Yeah. Towards the. Towards the end, he said something about.

Yep.

And all my kids are grown in God. The last one's off to college. Which means me and my wife have a lot more time together. And, like, winked at the entire crowd. And everybody groans at, you know, at once, and I'm like, thank you for saying something. It's like, because so many pastors are scared to even mention that that actually happens.

Yeah.

Well, I mean. Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, it's weird how one minute is taboo, and the other minute we're like trying to take really hard stances on things. And like I said, it's either one way or another. Yeah.

So what do you think, Darren, about all of these? I don't know if I really want to call them street preachers, but the. The guys that go out and even if they're respectful, like, go out and on video to these. These Pride Days, parades, celebrations, whatever. Like, what do you think of those guys that are. That are out there that are doing this for the youtubes and the social medias, which is that.

That's interesting you say that because Darren and I had a conversation where he said he went to the Pride Parade, and I forget where he said it was, but got immediately approached. Tell that story.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, actually, I was going to bring that one up when he said that, because the last event that I went to a couple years ago was Bloomington, Minnesota, which is where the Mall America is the airport, you know, the big second biggest suburb after Minneapolis. They had their first Pride event and they had street preachers there. Rich Penkovsky, I can name him because I know him personally and I've had dinner with him and I've gotten to

know him,

and I did not go and minister in the style that he was. Agape First Ministries. We do one on one when we go out. So either my wife and I would go out to, like, Minneapolis Pride, but here I'm talking about Bloomington Pride. And so it was Luca Gropoli and I, and we kind of walk in and then she took off and I took off one Direction. And I kid you not, the first person, as soon as I step onto the grounds, a person walks up to me and says, I know who you are and why you're here. I said, oh, well, I'm sorry, I don't know who you are. You have image disadvantage. I'm Darren. Who are you? Well, I am. And I can't remember the name, but I'm so and so. And I'm the demon of whatever. I said, oh, well, it's great to meet you. What brings you out today? And so I had a conversation with this demonized man for 20 minutes, and it was really fascinating. And. And I shared my thoughts about Jesus and the Creator, and I shared the gospel in a peaceful way. And I wasn't defending Christianity. It was a American, a Native American demon, you know, of some sort. And it even showed. It even, you know, was bragging about how it could throat sing, you know, you know, I can do it. But. And so I was asking, you know, where does that come From I just being cordial, you know, and getting to know this person, knowing that there's a person behind the demon. Right. And. And so I'm having this conversation. It lasts about 20 minutes. Finally stepped in a landmine. That demon blew up and walked away. But this is where the fruit came in, is that there was two sisters sitting on the. On the curb right next to me listening to this whole conversation. And so that, that was interesting. Quite the experience. But I think the moment was really for these two sisters. And I started conversing with them, and I had a word from the Lord, like a word of knowledge or a word of encouragement for this sister. And. And I, I. I gave her this word. And she starts crying, and I. And I knew that she was receiving from Jesus in that moment and that there was a real tangible presence of the Lord in her life. And her sister became really irritated. And. And so the girl's kind of pushing her sister away. Well, then her sister finally takes her and pulls her away. Right. And I would end up finding her later and encouraging him a little bit more. But, you know, your. Your question is about the street preaching. And I wanted to contrast it to my experience is that they're both legit. They're both legit ministries, because Rich Penkovski, I can testify that he sends people who repent to me. And what it is is that you're dealing with the demonic and with the hardest of hearts. Okay? The demons will manifest in those situations. And someone was arrested. The police were there. They were protecting him. And I watched for quite a while. And if you go to the news, some guy exposed himself publicly and got arrested because he was attacking the street preacher. And if you listen, if you actually listen in its entirety and get to know, like, Rich Penkovski, warriors for Christ, who at one time, before YouTube shut him down, had a million followers, is that he is preaching the gospel, but he's using a sledgehammer to break the hardest of hearts, where I'm using a surgical scalpel, and I'm going into the individual and seeing them where he is taking on the principality. See, there's a difference. And so the words that he's using is to break the hearts. And he's just the front line. And then he comes with a group of ministers, which I haven't done that ministry, but he has ministers that will. Then once they start asking questions, they go to them and they're ministered to offline or, you know, outside of that. And so I can testify that he has sent people to me who have repented of homosexuality and, and I've bridged them to the church and, and so, and he's done work that has moved, you know, taken down the, the enemy and has had exposed and brought down big works of the enemy. And so I would say it's not my gifting or calling and it's, you know, you win some with, with mercy and you win some with fear is what is, I think is Proverbs says.

Yeah.

And you know, there's just the hard hearts when at that Bloomington Pride, you know, I see this woman with their 7 and 8 year olds flipping the bird and, and cussing and swearing at the street preacher. You know, I mean, it's a real spiritual battle. And you know, Rich Penkoski has been in cbn, tbn, Christian Post, you know, the Christian News. And I've investigated that. I really, God gave me the opportunity to really understand what he's doing because I'll admit when I first met him, I was attacking him.

Sure.

And he put me, he put scripture in my face and he really humbled me, honestly. And so before we attack it, we need to understand what the principles are that this scriptural principles in which he's operating. And I've had a hard time looking at his fruit, not just saying, well this is how you should do it, like the way that I do it. But I spent time inspecting his fruit and I can say firsthand, I know that homosexuals are repenting. So he has the fruit. But that's rich. I just know that guy. I know that there's Westboro and he's very different than Westboro. He's not Westboro. You know, that guy's dead crazy.

But yeah, that was, that was crazy.

Is, is that people have a way of lumping all street preachers together.

Of course.

And I appreciate you saying that because like I've, I've been, I, I'm one who's. I've not been a street preacher, but I've, I've always said like, look at what, how they're approaching it. Not, not just that they're doing it right. Like, I mean, Jesus preached in the streets too, you know, so, yeah, my,

my late father in law was a deputy sheriff and a corporal before he passed away. And he once said to me that the biggest problem is that the same thing happens to cops, this happens to Christians, is that 99% of us are great, but the 1% of us who cause a riot make the news.

Yeah, it's like, right, yeah, this is true.

And that's Kind of how it happens.

Yeah. You know what, Actually I would love personally to ask you to, to go a little further in something because you've touched on something that not a lot of people connect with. The homosexual arena is the demonic. And it's a scary thing for some people to talk about or even hear about. But in your experience, what kind of experience have you had with demons in this arena?

Okay. I want to settle this once and for all. Yeah. Thanks for asking. Because that is a really big issue in the church, especially the Charismatic Church, and the thought that, you know, every person that is struggling with same sex attraction, ergo, has a demon. Right. And we'll get in some deep doctrine here is I don't personally believe that a Christian who's filled with the Holy Spirit can have a demon. Okay. I don't believe. I believe that this is a temple of the Holy Spirit and he's my strong man. No one else is going to get in.

Yeah, I would agree.

What? Thank you. What I do believe is that I don't think there's enough demons to go around that everybody has one. Okay. And I've been in ministry long enough that I know when I'm talking to a demon, I know when someone is possessed by a demon. And they're never been a Christian, they've never been repentant, confessing sin, seeking the Lord. It's never been that. And so you can't cast a demon of homosexuality. And all the ministry leaders that I know nationally, nobody believes in my column of doctrine and theology that I teach from and my peers, nobody believes that you're going to cast a demon out of someone and suddenly they're not going to be gay.

Okay.

And so what I believe about the demonic and Screwtape letters is a great one to start there. And is that all the demon has to do is get his doctrines in your head. And what I believe is spiritually going on is like, let's say Hollywood or wherever this porn is being created. Those are the works of the demonic. The demonic is controlling those people and creating products of demons and pumping it into our homes. And so we're accepting and working in that sin and making those thoughts and behaviors in our minds. And so the demon doesn't have to be there, but it does create a mind and a life where the demons that are going around looking for a place to stay will be able to find a life and eventually take over. Right. And so if we take transgenderism, for example, this, this is the epitome of self worship. It is Completely the doctrines of Satan. Okay, so transgender, what's the first thing that happens in transgender is that they don't believe that they're in the right body. They're rejecting the reality of their body, of how God created them, male or female. Then they reject the identity that they were born into and the name that they were given by their parents. So they're not honoring their mother and father. So they're rejecting God, they're rejecting their parents. And what do they do? They come out as transgender, and they have a coming out experience. Just like Christians have a baptism, they have a demonic baptism where they die to their old self, and they're raised new, not new in Christ, not new with sin being gone, but it's actually embracing sin. And now they are their own God determining who they I am is. Okay, this is the doctrine. And what do they call their name before the dead name. Right. This is a perfect demonic counterfeit to our life in Christ. That rather, being born in eternal life, you're born into the death of transgenderism. And so if we look at what happened at the Church of Annunciation in Minneapolis, for example, I don't know if you guys took the time or had the stomach to watch the videos of the transgender identified individual, but I watched the videos. That man was demon possessed, possessed by the. A devil by a demon. And you could watch him go in and out of himself and the demon taking possession. And he had a notebook where he looked in the mirror and he saw a demon. And the things that he wrote, the things that he said were demonic. And so when you take the identity that I am who I say I am, and it was birthed in the murder of self and suicide, that's a soil or a house that a demon can then come in. So this man admitted he wished he never got into transgenderism, but he didn't have a way out. Well, the way out is Christ, sure. But his mother, I believe it was his mother wanted him to, you know, support him as his transgender. And so then he. He takes these guns, and he had all the things that were terrorizing him and his beliefs on each magazine he had written the words out. I mean, this was demonic in its highest degree. Just like Jesus dying on the cross is the highest form of Christianity, he was practicing the highest, where he is now murdering children. And that spirit of murder, which was self murder, is now manifested in murdering others. And so this is a doctrine that you are your own God. You get your own truth. And the only thing about the lgbt, the lgbt, are the High priests, okay, they're the Levites of, of Satanism. They're the ones that are. The drag queen is the idol of the world because you can be man, you can be woman, you can be anything in between. But it destroys the image of God and it lifts up the image of man. That's what we're dealing with here. And it's, it's, it's, it's our beliefs. It's rejecting God. It's Romans 1. They, they gave up the image of God. They gave up the authority of God in their life and they took on the image of man, of created being and that they're walking around in pride. I get to be whoever I want to be. And you know what? There's a lot of people that are trapped. They're trapped as prodigals. They don't have the truth. The church has gotten tired or they don't want to be labeled as evil. They want to be sugar coated, winsome and, you know, seeker friendly and. But it's, it's not about swinging, you know, and trying to find the middle. All respect to Matt. I hear you, bro. It's. What is the truth Jesus died for? The truth is that he's God. God is God. You know, he didn't die for us to be our own gods, but to be free as being created beings. That's the life. Satan, you'll be like God, you'll know good and evil. That's what, that's what we're dealing with, guys.

Man.

All right, good question. Turn on the air conditioner.

Even better answer.

Well, I love the answer. And yeah, it's. The realities of this stuff is absolutely like to some it could be completely shocking. I think the longer you spend looking into these things, it, it's weird how much the shock factor sometimes goes away and you're like, oh man. So this is what this is.

Okay.

Yep.

I think one of the most eye opening things for me was there was a. Oh, youth, youth director that I was talking to not too long ago and he was talking about how he was scrolling through Instagram and he saw this article about how they are trying to win an argument saying that a baby can be aborted three months after. After pregnancy or after delivery. Right? And he went, oh my gosh. And he was absolutely like appalled. Right. He said. And seconds later it hit him. He goes, I saw an article about a nine month abortion not two weeks ago and it barely hit. It was just like, oh, that again. It's like. And so it's the, the Escalation. It's like the. The worse it gets, the more and more desensitized we get to what we should have be. What we should be reacting to.

So I've got a personal experience question just to see, like, what. What are your thoughts? And what. How would you have handled it? Or. I'm sure you probably have. I had a friend who. Who was homosexual. Homosexual? I was gonna say gay.

I don't know.

Anyways, I will never forget that one.

He. He invited me and my wife to his wedding, and I declined, saying that, you know, I can't. As much as I would love to celebrate this with you, I just can't. It's not right for me to do so. And we. I mean, I loved on him and his.

His.

His boyfriend, fiance, spouse, whatever, the whole time before and after. I mean, we. We didn't shy away from, like, we didn't not bring our daughter around him. We were. You know, we. We spent a lot of time with him just hanging out and loving on them and stuff, inviting him to church. But, man, he. He was livid.

Yeah.

And so I. I was recently told that that was the wrong choice by somebody. And I'm just curious as to what your thoughts are on how you would handle that and how somebody might handle that. Obviously, with. With grace and love. You know, like, you got to be loving towards people whenever you talk to them, regardless of what it is.

But was he a professing Christian or.

No? Sort of.

Sort of.

Okay.

All right.

All right. Well, Derek, thanks for asking. And, you know, this is. This is based in some deep doctrine and prayed out, and I've lived this as well. And I first want to say that I have a very close friend in the. Who's a national leader and in this ministry space, and he's a twin. His brother got married to a man, or he went to his brother's marriage, and he said that he wanted to be loving and available, and that that has led to continuing to have a relationship in the family. So I want to say that, you know, he. For his own purposes, he did that. And I disagree with the ends justifying the means. I love the brother. And. And. And that's the most common answer that I would get, you know, to this would be, well, it's about the relationship. And I. I can appreciate that. But my. My heart and the way I read scripture and what I know, you know, I explain the transgender issue and the demonic related to that. Well, guess what? You just brought us right to the demonic. And the gay thing is that marriage is such a sacred thing that it reflects the bride of Christ and Jesus. And we are seen in the effeminate as the bride and Jesus our groom. And I'd start with the first thing is that two men or two women is saying that Jesus will marry himself or the bride will marry herself, right? The relationship isn't needed. So just take the analogy route. It doesn't add up, right? And then the idea of marriage, what is the fruit of marriage? It's reproducing image bearers on the earth. It's not about the. Just the married couple and it's not about their enjoyment. It's about producing image bearers and bearing fruit on the earth and, and doing the command, be fruitful and multiply and. And have dominion over the earth, right? And so there's that doctrinal issue. So, you know, now we talked about two things. The final thing is when I was living as a gay Christian, I moved in with a guy and we were best friends. We were both struggling with homosexuality at different times, and we were encouraging one another. And I thought as a celibate gay Christian, that I could move in with him and help influence him. And it ended up being that he influenced me and I ended up in the gay Christian practicing. But then he did. I moved out and he did eventually move, get married in Minnesota. And it had have been five years later after, you know, I'd come out of homosexuality, been married to Rhoda, and I hadn't talked to him for a long time. I said, hey, bro, come on over for dinner. Let's catch up. And we're sitting on the couch. And he said, you know, why didn't you invite me to the wedding? Like, you know. And he says, well, I knew you wouldn't come. I said, well, true that, okay. And. And I said, but, you know, that God doesn't bless, you know, what you're doing. Goes, well, I know. And I started crying and I'm like, bro, if you know that God isn't blessing that and you're living in sin, why would you do it? He said, well, because I don't want to be alone. And I look at the marriage and Derek, I could never go to a gay wedding. Here's a man that I knew 10 years, like, even before I moved in with him. Like, we had known each other for so long and had struggled and sought Jesus and we encouraged one another. And side note, I'll come back to the marriage thing. Funny trail. We dated for about two hours when he had broken up with his boyfriend. I broken my boyfriend. And we said, well, why aren't we dating? We've known each other forever and we love each other. Let's just date, you know, and see if it works out. So we go downstairs, watch a movie and starts rubbing my shoulders and he kisses me, right? And after he kisses me, I kind of push him away and he's like, what? What? I said, dude, that was the grossest thing I've ever done. You're my brother and I just kissed you like, this isn't going to work. And I had no idea I was prophesying the truth. It's that he's my brother in Christ and to go to a wedding and watch him take a demonic covenant. And hope that him jumping off the, the cliff, that he'll somehow survive the fall and that I'll have a relationship with him. But it's going to be a relationship with a dead man walking who's made a covenant with Satan and I'm not allowed to talk about that. Or I'm not loving him. Like, it's just my heart breaks for that man to this day. And I pray for him.

Sure.

I love him dearly and I know that he's destined for hell if he doesn't repent. I mean, he's going that direction. Not that he's destined. I'm sorry, I used the wrong word. He's choosing hell because he feels alone, because he's not received by men. You know, I mean, he would be if he. If, you know. But anyways, so could I go to a gay wedding? Not without crying my eyes out and weeping and wailing for their soul. Like, I know what that is. I know what it represents. I know I can't tell you how many people I've ministered to. And I asked them, well, you know, did you ever want to get married to a woman? Yeah. But I had to give that up because I realized I'm really gay. And like, that's what's been stolen from these men is. Is that they are men and that they are marriable, that they're lovable, you know, that they're fully male. And. And to go with this gay marriage and say, ah, he's not male enough. But I'll take this. I'll take whatever I can get so I at least have a relationship. I mean, it warns that if we, if we love them more than we love God, we're not. I mean, it just. It doesn't add up for me because it's not love. It's not Love to bless that and rejoice. How can you rejoice with that? It's so. Oh, it just wrecks my heart. Yep.

I had the similar conversation with my daughter, who's now 17. She'll tell you that from day one, it's like, I get so frustrated at these 12 year olds and 13 year olds who want to have a boyfriend and girlfriend because I just want someone to hang out with. And it's like, so go hang out with people. Like, you don't have to be an exclusive couple to spend time together. It's okay.

You know what?

In your.

It's interesting because we see that, you know, your, your guy's afraid of being alone. And you talk about the fact that they want that they're. They're looking for companionship. Yep. And they're, you know, that's what I mean. A lot of people are looking to be accepted and they're looking to be treated as if they matter and they're special. Years ago, my daughter was still in Girl Scouts and they had reached just the middle school age. And it was when they were teaching them about this stuff.

Okay.

In the schools. I don't know how much they teach it down here, but up where I was, they laid it on thick. And as they began to teach it to them and endorse it, suddenly like half my daughter's Girl Scout troop started to come out. You know, they were suddenly like, well, I'm bi, I'm lesbian, because they thought a girl was pretty.

And.

And I said, you can't take a group of girls of that age who's impressionable and tell them that you want to be special or celebrated. These are things that you can be special and celebrated for and not expect them to start to try it on for a minute, you know what I mean? It's. We're in that search of wanting to feel accepted. And I love that you're. I mean, something you keep touching on is that, you know, our identity, our. Our real acceptance, our true self, is in God. It's not in these other things. And it's hard for a lot of people to navigate those waters and become secure in who we are really in our true identity, that is, in God, that God's beloved people. Do we have one more question for. Do I have time for another question?

Yeah, you're good.

All right, cool. So I'm very curious. We've talked a lot about a lot of things, but I can only imagine what you've gone through, maybe from those in that party, because you were there and came out of it. So have you gone under attack by the LGBT community? Have people tried to ridicule you in any. Like, what has that been like for you?

Well, I'm not just any person who's come out of homosexuality. I've been a national leader international. I've actually testified at the United Nations. And so after the United Nations, George Soros money came after me to shut me down. And by the grace of God, I didn't get shut down, but my two friends, their ministries got shut down on Facebook. And so, you know, I. I've done marches. I organized a march at the Capitol in Minnesota. We've done them in D.C. and I've been quoted several times, and I've appeared in LGBT media, and, you know, I have my own tag on LGBTQ Nation. The. The persecution is real. But it. It. I would say it's. My middle name is Emory, and I think God gave me a forehead of. Of Emory. I just. It. I know who I am in Christ, and I love my neighbor enough to tell them the truth and to fight for them. And so, like, Jesus was persecuted for righteousness, and I know that they rejected him. They're going to reject me. But as we just saw today in the news, you know, when a former homosexual makes the news, I count it good when we're ridiculed because our testimonies are being shared in the LGBT space. And so I know I'll take the whippings because I know that there will be people that will hear this and that they will know. Now, the LGBT news is going to frame it as conversion therapy and, you know, all this kind of stuff. But just like the street preacher, I know that there's fruit from it because people reach out to me. They say, oh, I read your story here. I read this article there. And so I know that there's fruit. And if. And what is Acts? I think it's Acts 4:20. 4:29, maybe 4:29. When Peter's praying, he says, lord, give me the boldness to preach your word. Take note of their threats, and we will watch your hand move and do the miracles. I believe that. I believe we, just as Christians, have to be bold with the truth. And if we're in Christ, we're in love, we're doing it in love. And we have to understand what love is. And truth, they pull together. They're not something that you balance. It's just the scale of how much people can receive of truth and love in the same thing. And that's the Holy Spirit balancing it out. But I found that the persecution, yeah, it's all over the place. Our books got deleted from Amazon. You know, just some gay guy said, convergent therapy. And Amazon deleted our books. There was a book that I had a testimony in, you know, and Joe Dallas, which is a testimony book, a discipleship book for people who are struggling, got deleted off of Amazon. Vimeo deleted 800 testimonies. Instagram. Two years ago, I'd never used my Voice of the Voiceless Instagram. I'd only been using Facebook. I thought, you know what? This year I'm gonna start posting our testimonies on Pride Month. June, I'll start posting ex LGBT testimonies. I got three days in and they deleted my account and said, you're violating the policies. That's. That's hate speech. And all I was doing was sharing the testimony of people coming to Jesus out of the lgbt. And so what it is, is I've understood by the grace of God, I did not ask for this testimony, but here it is. And I know that as I speak the truth, the captives are going to be set free, and those lives are worth the whippings. Jesus died on the cross because it saved the world, and he's called us to lay our lives down. And I have to be obedient to the call of love, to share the truth and to speak the truth, even if I get whipped. And believe me, Matt, it's not just the LGBT that crucify me. I'm crucified in the church.

Sure.

I don't even want to speak of the Judas experiences that I've had where best friends have stabbed me in the back. Just because you're ex gay doesn't mean that you get to say this in the church. Doesn't mean that you get to go up to the biggest guy in our denomination and tell him that he's teaching wrong.

Well, I would, you know, you know, I would refer them to Henry Nouwen, because Henri Nouwen admitted in his book that he struggled with same sex attraction at the time, but he's still renowned as a voice for God. And, you know, when you, when you can see that, right, it's like there's some hypocritical talk there. There's people that are angry because you overcame something, yet they're still struggling. I think that's what part of it is. It's like we're willing to. It's almost like when Jesus told us, you know, about the speck in the plank, it's like, yeah, you want to Come at them. But, you know, you're just trying to not focus on your own issues. It's like, why are you getting so angry? Because I found victory in Christ. It's absolutely crazy. And to tell you that because you've come into a relationship with Christ in a way that was so real and so life changing and, and so radical that you can't know things is ridiculous. Like, you've got firsthand knowledge. Your witness is flat out witness. It is not just. Well, you know, I heard about Jesus and I thought, he's a good guy. No. He radically changed your life and gave you strength and power. And yeah, you've had to go through it, you know, but it's so real, it drives me nuts to see people attack anyone who has overcome something. You know, some of the most powerful people that I have seen with testimonies have come from jails, from lifes of terrible things. But Jesus turned them around. And when you look at the Bible, you see the same things. You see people who did terrible things. Paul is a. That's right off the top of the. Paul was killing people, man.

Yeah.

It was like, if he can use like David committed adultery, we got. We can go through the list. Right. But God can turn people around. And who's to say he stopped? No, he's doing it every day.

Yep.

Amen.

Yep.

You, you were sharing before we got into recording, a big victory that you found out about today.

Oh, yeah. Well, today's bar.

I'd love to share that.

Yeah. Today's March 4th over in Malta. Yes. The island of Malta, where Paul was. There was a lawsuit. Our first brother in Christ, his name is Matthew Greg. And he was arrested for promoting conversion therapy. And it started when he went on X Factor and shared his testimony. He's a worship musician. Right. So he has an X factor for his music skills. And he shared that he repented of homosexuality. God set him free. Well, Malta told X Factor, you have to take that off. You can't publish that. That's conversion therapy. So that's when he got the target on his back. Was there. Well, then he would. Three years ago, he was sharing his testimony on a show and the LGBT lobby heard it. And Malta had passed a conversion therapy ban, which means you're not allowed to talk about sexual orientation change that, you know, Jesus sets you free. That's conversion therapy. And it's illegal in Malta. So this gang organization reported him to the police and then he was facing fines in jail time. Well, it took three years, 14 or 17 hearings. And then the final verdict was postponed four times, but today in Malta, he was vindicated and found not guilty. And the judge said that more or less sharing your testimony is not coercive or abusive, and it's free speech. And so he was set free. But that's like going to the Supreme Court of Malta, right? And so what the scripture says is that God will bring us to the governors and the magistrates to share the gospel. And all of Malta got to hear that Jesus sets people free of homosexuality. And now it's traveling through the world and it's in the LGBT news. It hit this afternoon, and his words are being repeated, that Jesus sets a captive free, that Jesus is alive, that he's the Lord and Savior and there is life in him. And I just been spending the morning worshiping God and thanking him that for eight years I've been fighting stateside. And this brother has got the first victory that he was counted. He was counted to suffer for Christ. And this man has given me courage for three years because he had joy and he had the peace of Jesus through all these trials and all. I mean, guys, if you knew how many much of a punching bag that we are, that he is in the world. And he takes all the scorn of. Of everything that the enemy can throw at him. And that man was unwavering in Christ. He puts me to shame. And I just. I mean, in a good way, you know, And. And I just. I look at this brother and I'm like, I want to be like Christ. I want Christ in me. Like it isn't him. That man is a man of God. And he stood in the joy of the Lord through the whole thing. And he's just praising Jesus. And guess what? Last week, he got engaged to a woman they've been dating. And here in the United States, we have the child's case that was heard, and it's going to come the hearing. What do you call that? The decision. The decision will come out here in a few months, probably in June, we're guessing. And that's going to settle the conversion therapy thing, this pejorative attack, that talking about Jesus is harmful. It's only harmful to the gates of hell. It's only harmful to the demons that want to destroy people's lives. But the truth is that talk therapy, getting professional help to reconcile your behaviors with your beliefs that you have the right to. To. And I. I didn't go through therapy, I'll admit. I had my brothers like Dave and Jimmy and Lewis and Scott and. And those guys and Greg walking along with me and my wife right there by my side that Jesus manifesting through them is life. And nobody, no gates of hell is going to be able to stop that. Jesus won the victory.

That's right.

And he's king. It's Psalms 2, guys. The, the world is trying to cast off the fetters of Jesus that but God scoffs and laughs at them, says no, I've established my king and his name is Jesus and you better repent that he not be mad and turn and judge you. You know, so this is great news is that Jesus alive that we're changed. We're sanctified because of his blood and his body. It has power, his word. It's the Bible. I've read it for 2,423 days and I pray every day. I say Lord, if there be any sin in my life created me a clean heart, let that word transform me. That I wouldn't be conformed to this world, but that you would save me. They would save me from this evil, this present darkness. And Lord, give me boldness to share your truth. Everywhere we go and get brothers. That's for you. That's for me, that's for the whole church. And that the church would stand up and be bold and not be afraid of the enemy, but to know who as we are. We're the bride of Christ. He's our head. It's his power. It's not by our works. Sorry, I'm preaching. No, you're good.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

That's what's going on, man.

That sounds like Matt Rex middle name might be Em.

So, okay, so just in wrapping up right. This has been an awesome conversation and I have very much appreciated every, every minute of it. What, what would you say, what's your final words of encouragement to the person who wrote in the question originally? What would you say to them as like just what's your final words?

Yeah, well going back to the original is that we affirm dignity in love. The battle is about what it means to be human and what love is. And you know, I'm glad that you shared this with me and I care about your son and I want you to know I'm not your enemy. If I every everything that I teach and preach I open up with First Corinthians 13 and Ephesians 6:12. So we're not battling one another. We're battling the principalities and the lies of the enemy, those things and that we're actually. The battle's been won and I'm not battling as much as I am having an opportunity to encounter the truth, where the ambassadors of the Kingdom of God the truth. And so then what are we doing? We're asking for a clarity of heart. You know, do you want a church that won't shame you? Great come to mind. We're not going to shame you. We're going to encourage you, we're going to equip you and we're going to empower you. But understand that the Bible in its entirety, Jesus died to save us, and he's given us the Bible to understand what that is. And so we're re. Centering. I would tell her we need to center on his authority. And it's not about what we'll allow or what we'll judge, but the question is, what has God said? And I believe that the Bible is that word. And then inviting her and her family, her loved ones, into discipleship, that a faithful church is going to call us to repentance. And repentance just means turning from your ways to God's ways to accept that his law is holy and good and it's the boundary on life. Then when you step outside of that, it's sin and death. And. And so we will speak plainly. It's. It's no longer the age of ignorance. Jes. Jesus said the time of ignorance is done. Get to walk and speak plainly and. And you know, we can't bless what God, what Jesus died for. You know, we can't bless sin. But Jesus doesn't only forgive. He transforms. We're not born. I mean, yeah, we may be born into sin, but he saves us. And we deny our will, our old selves, our pride. And he gives us the grace and the power that transforms us. And so we're changed. We're not unchanged. Jesus will meet us where we're at, but he's taking us to heaven. And the first day that you believe and are filled with the Holy Spirit is the first day of your eternity in heaven. You just left the kingdom of hell and you joined the kingdom of heaven. And my role as a pastor is to see you, to finish the race and to come alongside you and bear that burden and help you carry the load of seeking the Lord and obeying his will. That's. That's what it is. That would be my encouragement.

That's so good. Well, is there, Is there anything like, Is there anything you want to plug. Is there any like, you want to plug your ministries and that sort of thing?

Yeah, go for it.

Sure, sure.

Toss it out there.

So I'm part of Agape First Ministries, and our mission statement is that we desire to make the name of Jesus famous by discipling the nations regarding his transforming power so the saints will persevere in love for God. So that is the ministry space that I'm under in the LGBT context. Agape first, we lead with Agape Love first. And then how I do ministry is through Made free ministries here. MadeFreeMinistries.com is a ministry, a missionary ministry, and a teaching ministry under Agape. So this is me, my wife and I. So the hummingbirds are Rhoda and I, and we come into the churches and we encourage, we equip, and we empower them to do ministry in this space. We're a bit behind on being able to minister in this space. It's been pushed out into parachurch ministry. But I believe that it is the role and it's a needs be, must be that the church themselves, the church proper is receiving the prodigals. We will not see the freedom in the lgbt Come back to the church until the church is ready to receive. You know, burn me twice, it ain't going to work. And so the church has had a mistake in that. They say, well, you go to this ministry and they'll help you. That's othering. That's saying that the church. This is too big of a deal. We can't deal with it. The church needs to repent and the church needs to receive the teaching that we have in the ministry space. And there's enough of us to go around. So that's mainstream ministries and that, you know, I'm a pastor as well at a church and equipping my local church because I believe, you know, local and then community and then go to the nations. But this is my going out to the churches, my missionary work of equipping the church.

So, yeah, you're like, almost in the middle of Canada at this point, right? You're way up there.

I can throw a stick at Canada. In fact, a lot of times my cell phone connects into Canada, but. Yeah. Yep, there you go.

That's awesome.

Yeah, that's very cool.

And thank you, Diane, for coming on, man.

Huh.

You can find me on my LinkedIn or I'm not LinkedIn. My link tree. So. L I N K T R E E Darren, Mel and you guys.

I've never heard of linktree.

Oh, we have a link tree. Oh, yeah.

Is it a ministry thing?

It's a landing page.

Ah, okay. It's a quick, quick landing page that points you all over the place.

Yeah.

There's a bunch of buttons in different contexts so you guys can share my link tree. That's how to get a hold of me. Perfect.

Very cool. Well, thank you so much for being on here today. It has been.

Thank you guys for being bold and courageous and having me on and risking. Risking that. Thank you.

The way I. I've been saying it is that we. We're not risking anything.

It's.

Whatever God does with this is what God does with this. We're getting together, we're enjoying each other's company, we're growing in truth, and we're helping at least a few people in our. In our local congregation just, you know, move through life. So if we get shut down tomorrow, that's because God wanted it. And if. If we get blown up tomorrow, then. And not in the bad way.

Right.

Then that's what God wanted. Even if it is the bad way, that's what God got allowed. So. So, yeah, it's not. It's not at risk to us and we really appreciate the love that. That you're sharing with us today. So.

Yeah. My only regret is that we couldn't do it in person. I like.

Yeah, no joke, right?

Perhaps middle of February or the beginning of March, end of February, I'd be more than happy to come down the floor. Yep.

I keep telling these people, they don't really understand what it's like until they go out to the garage, open the garage door and don't see light for two and a half feet because how much snow is piled up outside the garage door and go, oh, shoot, I'm gonna be late to work. And the fun little flip when you call your boss and say, hey, there was two feet of snow. And he goes, so in Minnesota and in Canada, they're like, I don't care. You're still coming to work.

It's. It's an extra month of winter up here on the Canadian border. You know, it was something, but up here, it's really something. Okay.

Alrighty then. Good stuff. Cool.

All right, well, thanks for coming on and. And guys, check out his socials and everything. We. We appreciate you all for tuning in and asking the questions. Thanks for what you guys do too, and God bless.

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