Hey, it's Val. This week we're bringing you a conversation between Luke Baumgarten and former city council President Ben Stucker. Ben is the person who called for a protest last week on Wednesday, June 11th at the Spokane Immigration and Customs Enforcement Facility where ice agents were detaining two young men, joir and Cesar were coming in for a routine check-in. And ICE decided to detain them and start processing them for deportation. Ben and Luke talk about the protest, what led up to it and what's next? Listen in.

We are here to talk about kind of the events of Wednesday, but more importantly, the lives of two men. Um, Cesar Alexander Alvarez Perez, who's the, the young man now, 21 years old that you've been helping sort of steward through the process of asylum seeking. And his friend who he met, they're both Venezuelan, but they met in Columbia as they were on their trip to America. Uh, Josar Slater Rodriguez Torres. There's so much to talk about. It's like the last week, I think. I don't know. I think half the Spokane hasn't slept well in the last week. Mm-hmm. Um, it's been such a topic of conversation, and I know you're, um, you tell me you, you haven't been sleeping well either. But, um, maybe to start, we just focus on these two young men. Um, tell me about Cesar, since he's the one, you know, the best, like. When did you meet him and, and what was he like? You know, he'd been, you know, coming from starting in Venezuela all the way through a pretty secure route. We'll talk about in a second to get, to get to Spokane, but to America. Um, what was he like when you first met him?

Well, so Washington State has a, it's a special program that they created for, uh, vulnerable, uh, youth, um, juveniles that are between the ages of 18 and 21, um, that are on the path to becoming citizens. And it's really set up to be their mentor and guide them through the help, guide 'em through the process. So about three or four months ago, I do volunteer work at Latinos in Spokane, and that was something I started, uh, right after the election. I asked Latinos in Spokane if I could come volunteer every week, um, just to help vulnerable people in our community because I. I think we all need to be showing solidarity with the communities, even if we're coming from a place of, uh, privilege. And they put out a call that they needed, uh, adults, um, to serve as guardians. And so I volunteered, my wife and I said we'd show up. Um, we got to a meeting and this was literally only like two and a half months ago, and there were four adults and, uh, four, uh, juveniles, young adults in our community Right. That needed to be paired up with guardians. Um, because it really helps if they have that legal guardian, um, in their asylum applications, um, it looks really good and it helps them through that process. So some of the the

ideas like you've got somebody on this side in America that's gonna help you out. Yeah. If you have a have a blood family, you have a, a support.

Yep. And it's kind of a lesser version of the sponsorship. They have a, you have a sponsor if you are applying for asylum as well. We've also agreed to be Cesar's, uh, sponsor in this program. And Shelly o Quinn is gonna be, uh, Joss's sponsor, um, in the asylum process. Um, but we were in a room with four adults. There were, my wife and I, so five adults and, uh, young men came in. Um, Cesar was late. Um, they had already talked about pairing us up with another young gentleman there that was really quiet. Mm-hmm. Um, my wife's Ann, she speaks Spanish. I don't speak Spanish, so that's like my problem on volunteering at Latinos in Spokane. And I don't speak Spanish. Um, but everybody was really quiet in this room and then Cesar and Josar walked in 'cause they go everywhere together. They're just like these beautiful human beings that are, um. Just like joined at the hip. Yeah. Joined at the hip. You know, they met in Columbia. They walked across eight countries together. Um, they got robbed together on their walk up. They, um, waited in Mexico to be let in under the humanitarian parole program because they're from Venezuela. So they waited six months in Mexico so that they would come into our country legally. So they're joined at the hip. They lived together, they worked together at Walmart full time out in Airway Heights, and they walked into the room and they were just both this huge smiles. They both have curly hair and just started joking with the whole table and everybody in the room. And, uh, we sat there for like 45 minutes. Everybody getting to know each other. Everybody was really quiet except for those two. Yeah. Um, and you can't help but, uh, just be like attracted to their light and to want to be their friends. Yeah. And. Yeah, they're, I don't know. You just get, we, my wife and I were walking out, we'd already been partnered with another gentleman, uh, Alberto, and we were like, oh, well, Cesar was the coolest guy I've ever met. Like, what's going on? Why weren't we partnered with him? And their answer at Latinos in Spokane was, well, they're doing everything so perfectly right. Yeah. That they don't need any help. And half an hour later, I got a call from Latinos in Spokane, um, that with translation, um, issues, it was probably better for us to partner up with Cesar and just that it would be a lot. Amy became the partner, the legal guardian of the other gentleman because he needed more support.

Amy,

uh, a Amy, I don't know Amy's last name, but she's the case manager at Latinos in Spokane and is, she takes a lot of the, uh, young people that she meets there and they become her family member. She sent me pictures last night of. All these young people that come and volunteer at Latinos in Spokane, um, they all come to her house for their birthdays and her birthday, and their family has taken 'em in and she considers them all one part of just this huge family. And it's just, it's, it's, it, what's going on there is absolutely amazing. But then they partner us with Cesar and we got to start going out and having breakfast with him. We'd talk cars, we'd talk work. We were talking about him opening a business and how much he wanted to serve Venezuelan food and he couldn't wait to get a better job, um, than at Walmart because he felt that the um. The working conditions weren't really up to par. Yeah. And he wanted to work somewhere better, that had employers that really cared about them as individuals, um, how they needed a new car. He came out to the parking lot and looked at my car last night on the phone. I actually told him that when he gets out, he gets to drive my car. And uh, that was the first time he laughed the whole conversation. He was just gawing and it was just great. But, uh, I don't know. You just think of somebody that's curly haired, smiling, just talking a mile a minute, and if you can't translate, so in my case, I don't know Spanish, but you're just instantly attracted to them and want to care for them and do everything possible. So

Was Ann able to keep up with the translation? No,

she, she understands Spanish, um, but her Spanish isn't good enough to translate. Oh, okay. Um, and I think it, that's why it's a profession. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, it takes somebody with some, a real skillset to be able to. Go back and forth with somebody and translate it for somebody else at the same time. I, I think I missed that part of my brain. It's just not there.

so they, when they entered, um, from Mexico into America, they went to Miami first for a period time. Yeah. Like how long have they been in the country when you meet them? A couple weeks

ago, the, that's been lost in translation. Um, they got to Spokane in September. they met Shelly o Quinn in September, and Amy and Jennifer at Latinos in Spokane in September. And so they went there for services. So this is the type of guy, they're, they go into Latinos in Spokane because they want to connect with the Latino community and see what services are available and get help with their asylum claim. But what they did instead was started volunteering. Wow. So they started coming in on their off time and they worked night shifts. And so during the day, I. They would go into Latinos in Spokane and volunteer and on weekends go to the Medo that Latinos in Spokane puts on and volunteer their time there. So yeah, the Medo. Yeah. And instead of just coming to a place for services, they end up being volunteers and then befriending everybody there and becoming part of a larger family and a larger community. And you know, I think they're, I was on a call yesterday about them and uh, one of the things about a strong asylum case is it's really important to have letters of support from people that knew them. And so we were going over who they would know, and it came out that they're involved in three different faith-based communities. And so, oh wow. We're talking to the pastors and, and people that go to those churches. But you know, they're not just vol. They're not just working and going home, they're volunteering in the community involved in, uh, they're a variety of churches. Involved in Feast World Kitchen. I know that's how Shelly o Quinn met them was from at a Feast World Kitchen event. Oh, wow. so they're all over the place. And now I'm getting messages from people all over the community that, oh my God, that's Cesar and Josar. We know them, we met them. What wonderful young men. And nobody's there, there's nobody in Spokane that has met them, that isn't just absolutely in love with them.

Well, we should say that like your ability to come to America shouldn't be, you know, um, based on your perfection as a human being and your No. Now you want to volunteer, but like these sounds like they came to America. The Right, you know, the, the legal like following all the legal rules and they've in pretty short time become important parts of the communities they've found

here. Yeah. I just think it's a good, it's representative of how absurd the policies are. I guess to me they're are really good example of what we want as a neighbor. I have. A lot of neighbors and a lot of people I've met that, uh, I don't really consider the best community members. Yeah. And these are the people we want in the community. And I, I, I, we can, these are like, this problem is based on their detention. The fact that the humanitarian parole that they came in got canceled via executive order by Trump.

That happened right at the beginning of June, right?

Yeah. Right at the beginning of June, he canceled the humanitarian parole. So those are like Trump policies that are causing this problem. But people are people and people are not necessarily political. And the fact that a republican county commissioner, former county commissioner, Shelley o Quinn, who got talked about from running for Congress. You know, as little as a year ago before Baumgartner became our congressman. Yeah. A lot of the talk in the community with the, she would be the strongest person to run for, uh, Congress from the fifth Congressional District. The fact that she, her words to me on the first conversation on Thursday morning when we figured out this mutual connection and what was going on, and she was back in Minnesota for work was

Oh, wow. So on thir you didn't know that, that Shelly and

I, I had no idea. Oh, wow. I just knew they were really good friends with this family of two twin sisters, and their kids were the similar age of Josar and Cesar, and they'd been taken in as, as family members. I didn't know the names until Thursday that it was Shelly O'Quinn. Yeah. But I think that's what, to me is so indicative of how wrong this is, is that you have Democrats and Republicans alike. That, and Shelly's first words to me though were, I would've been there with you being arrested and I. Can tell you that. And she's a protective mom of these two and loves them. And they go to her lake, they go to her lake place on the weekends. Wow.

Um, Pascal's telling me we're peaking a little bit, so, okay. I'm getting excited. I know. Yeah. This is the, uh, the Ben Stucker. At least I'm not

crying.

Did you? Not yet. Anyways. Did you, did you and Shelly's, uh, terms as electeds overlap? Oh, yes. Did you guys have a cordial relationship? No, that's what I remembered. Yeah.

It was contentious at times. Yeah. Especially around like the Spokane Tribes casino project and Oh, right. We had some very serious words back then. Yeah. I did have coffee with her about housing maybe six months ago, but it wasn't like a warm and fuzzy coffee. Yeah. And then yesterday we're sitting at 8:00 AM having coffee, talking about how we're gonna get the boys back and, you know, she's, I. I cooked a VA of, uh, Sunday Gravy on Sunday. Mm. And, uh, I made sure and took Jennifer Mesa Latinos in Spokane, a big pile of my spaghetti sauce. But I also brought, uh, Shelly some, uh, because Shelly's gonna be in my life. Uh, she's gonna be in my life forever. Um, she's, uh, I think surprising each other is what humanity is about, and it's overcoming any different obstacles, uh, to care for each other. And that's what we gotta keep remembering is these are all human beings. And, uh, you're right though. It's not, you don't have to be a perfect example of a human being. We want everybody in our country because diversity is our strength. Um, but I just can't, these, these boys are so amazing. And then to think that. There were 500,000 Venezuelans that came in under the humanitarian parole program. These are just two of those 500,000. And I'm, you know, Trump wants to end the humanitarian parole program. All right. That's his prerogative. I'm totally, totally understand that. But then to go retro and kick those people out that did it the right way is, is cruel. They're, you know, they're not, they're going to Home Depots and why are they going to Home Depots? Because those people are working. Yeah. We, we keep talking about, we have this narrative in our community that immigrants are just mooching off the system and they're on Medicaid, and there's fraud in our government because we're just giving people all these free things. But then where are they going to find the people to deport is places of work because they're working, they're hardworking. Um, and we can't, you can't have it both ways. Either they're hard workers and they're here and you're just mad because you're a racist. Or, uh, you're wrong. And those people should stay. Like you can't, I don't know. You can't, you can't claim both sides at once in this, this issue. And it's really, but I think, and I'll shut up and let you ask another question in just a second, but I think keeping this human is what was to me so impactful is because we need to, I guess when you're there, like, did I go protest ice two weeks ago? No. But I was trying to take care of people, but I didn't go protest ice. But when it was two people I knew, I was like, oh my God, I will do absolutely anything to stop them from being deported. And I guess we need to each take a look at ourselves and say, what are we willing to do for those people? Because a lot of 'em don't have, uh, in some ways says that we may make no difference at all and they're gonna get deported in two weeks and that that's a very high likelihood, but maybe. The pressure we put on changes the policy, or maybe we save one at a time. Yeah.

Um, it kind of reminds me a little bit of the, a conversation I actually had with Justice for All at the end of last year. I think they'd had a pretty tough year with various things and they're, you know, relatively far left activist. And, um, and the, the time right before this time, sort of around the holidays that I saw them, they, and this was maybe four or five months prior, didn't seem like they were doing super well, you know, emotionally. Um, and then when I saw them right after the election, despite obviously, you know, a a, a left wing protest, a person isn't gonna be super stoked about Trump and most of the stuff that happened in that election, but they were, they had the slightness about them, and I was like, what's, you know. What's going on? Like, you seem like you're in a really good place. And they said, I've started organizing my neighborhood. I, I decided, and this, I'm gonna bring this back to what you just said. I, I, in so many different aspects of my life, I've seen people who can like hate or be scared of an abstraction, like migrant or, you know, whatever. And then love individual people. And that usually comes because I come from a pretty conservative family that comes from like, you know, the church I grew up in saying that, you know, gay people are going to hell. But then when my parents met individual gay, like we have, you know, gay friends and gay family and, um, it really strikes me that, and then, so what Justice was doing was sort of the opposite of that. He was like, I am, or they were like, I'm walking around to the, my neighbors with drum signs in their yards and just saying, Hey, do you need help? Like, these tend to be older folks and I'm just trying to like. And not with any ulterior motive of like making them want vote for, you know, a Democrat or somebody else, but with the idea of just being like, I'm here if you need me. Right. Yeah. And it feels like, and that's a little bit what you're doing with Shelly now, but like, 'cause if we've missed and we've lost a lot of that in, in the Hyperpolarization and the, the social media and the 24 hour news cycle.

Yeah. I think we've lost a lot of empathy for each other and others. And I don't know what that quote is from Hannah or Rent, but I think it's, the loss of empathy is a sign of a fall of a civilization. Wow. Or something similar to that. And I think we, like, if we're gonna get back to being a strong community in a strong country, we're gonna have to get back to empathy. And I think that starts one person at a time.

Well, I, I mean, I had another conversation with a friend of mine who's a, the intergenerational pastor at First Presbyterian, which. I think Jos War and Cesar both went to the Barton School to learn English. Yeah. Like one of the first English as a second language programs in Spokane. It was based out of, um, first pre, but this friend of mine was talking about how their church is trying to sort of be both open and affirming while also leaving space for people who aren't comfortable with that. you know, the older congregants and what my friend was saying, and this is gonna be in a subsequent episode of this podcast, but like, this whole thing was like talking and obviously it's like when, when one side is like, I want to feel free to express, you know, to be who I am. And the other side's like what you are as a human. Like that's, there's no, there's no arguing across that gap. No. And it's really, really hard for the person who's being dehumanized in that. Um, and the conversation he said he's been having with some of the younger people in the church is just around like, well. You know, we obviously want people to feel safe. We don't want people throwing around slurs, but also if we kick this person out of our community, where are they gonna end up? Like, they're gonna end up keyboard warriors, they're gonna find mm-hmm. They're gonna find a like-minded community that's gonna, you know, maybe drag them even further into the abyss. And so like, that really feels, it's not something I intended to talk about today, but the way you said, the way you were talking about, you know, you and the two dudes, and then you and Shelly, it really kind of centered that for me, just like the, the need to like, without excusing the things, the beliefs that each each of us have that are like the other person might find abhorrent. Like still seeing the humanity through that. Yeah. Feels like a really important thing to do right now. Yeah.

I, yeah, I can't, I couldn't agree more. Um, the polarization I guess, that I've seen over my lifetime is. Outrageous in the Yeah. Wanting to, if they, if people have an opinion on one issue that you disagree with, then you're outside and, yeah. Shoved outside is pretty harsh to me. Like Yeah. I, I, and I don't think it does any of us any good. Right. Um, I think we need to get back to just really loving on each other. Yeah. I, it's really like I, the last week I've become so angered at, uh, politics and angered at politicians and for somebody that spent eight years, literally eight full-time years working on, from the inside of a system, because I felt that was the best way to change it. Yeah. I'm really pretty sour right now on politics in general and politicians in particular. And, um. Really just about, I wanna, um, love on as many people as possible and I just get really emotional, like the support that I've gotten over the last week. Yeah. And the support that Josar and Cesar have gotten. Um, and LA you know, last night talking to Cesar, he wouldn't stop saying how appreciative he was of everybody in Spokane and Anne and I and Amy, and Shelly and Jennifer. And they were, you know, they were locked up there on the second floor of the ice detention facility and the ICE agents kept telling 'em they were kept in very inhumane conditions and they were shackled, um, wow. With chains on their feet and chains on their arms, all chained together around their waist. Um, and they're also in a cage, I would say. Yeah. And being told that the only reason they're being treated so poorly is because we are outside supporting them and Wow. least they had a good excuse that day to treat people like, uh, in inhumane. Yeah. Um, but he couldn't stop saying how much he, I guess it's the, the one story that still, if I can just keep going. Is that all right? Yeah. So Cesar and Josar are in the Tacoma Detention Center, and you know, the beds in detention centers are awful. The food is awful. They're in a room by themselves for 23 hours a day. When they get out, they go to a separate room and that room has a grate on the ceiling, but you still can't see the sky. You just get a little tiny bit of air that you're trying to breathe. Um, and for six hours, I experienced the same thing in the Spokane County Jail, which was dirty, gross, disgusting. Not only for the people staying there for, but for working conditions for everybody that works in that jail. We need to all be coming to a better compromise as a community where we don't expect somebody to go to the Spokane County Jail and think that after spending 30 to 60 days there, they're gonna come out better. 'cause that's, uh, absolutely false. I was ready to lose my mind after six hours. Yeah. Um, but while they're in there in these really inhumane conditions, to go back to my point is, is that in the last few days, so since they got there on Thursday, there's two stories already of them having met other detainees. That one, uh, had no phone numbers. When he got in, they, they took his phone. Oh. So he didn't have his phone and didn't have any numbers memorized, so could not get ahold of his family. Wow. And had been in there for months. So they went, took it upon themselves to get his name and information, and immediately the first person they talked to, they passed along that information. Who then Latinos in Spokane got. That detainee in touch with his family. And then two days later, another gentleman, his lawyer had abruptly quit and fired the gentleman and the lawyer had all the numbers and was the connection to the family. And so they've now connected and they connected them through Latinos in Spokane to their family. So there's two people in there already that had, had no contact with their families. Um, one of 'em for a month since their lawyer fired 'em, and the other since they'd been in there. And they're still in there trying to help other people. Like, and like, to me that's like a Cesar and Josar have it awful. This is horrible. They're really good people, but there's so many more. And what are we doing about it and what can we do about it? Like what are we doing about it right now? And with people, because you know what they did after our protest on Wednesday, they suspended the in person. Uh. Because Josar and Cesar showed up at ICE for a routine check. Right. And so they followed all the rules yet again, but at that routine check was earlier taken. So after our protest, uh, they suspended all the in-person checks at ice, um, up until they're gonna restart on Thursday. Oh, wow. So to me, that worked. We stopped 'em from taking a week's worth of people. Right. Like, if nothing, we stopped the machine for a bit because I feel like it's a machine and you gotta put, like, you think of a bicycle and you stick those stick in the spoke. Right? We gotta stick sticks in the spoke of the machine because there's no other option. Right now Congress isn't doing anything. The courts are moving way too slow. The Supreme Court is just a disaster. Um, so we, we, it's up to us to stick the spokes in the machine. And so what else are we doing and how else are we helping? Because even if Josar and Cesar get released next week and we have a big party that they're home. Yeah. There are still people being taken every day. And we watched that that afternoon.

I know you had like a small amount of time with him. Uh, did he have a sense of how many people are in are in Tacoma right now? None. Yeah. No. They're keep him so isolated. Yeah. So

isolated. Like see, he from his cell, he can see Josar, but has not been able to talk to him.

And is he alone in his cell? Yes.

He, other is my understanding in the translation I heard yesterday was that he's alone in his cell.

I wanna get to the protest in a second, but I did like you, when you and I were chatting, um, yesterday and you said, and I, I literally wrote it down because the, you used like two explanation points in a text and I don't think I've ever seen you use mm-hmm. Explanation, but like I get to speak to, you said, you know, Cesar, I get to speak to Cesar tonight at eight 30, like two exclamation points. Um, then you and I connected right afterwards and you seemed like pretty depressed. And so were those like mixed emotions? Or were you excited to talk? And then you heard how he was feeling and it broke your heart. You made it sound like, you know, clearly he's like trying to help people in there. But yeah, you, it sounded like you were, the way you characterized it to me last time was that you were, it felt like you were talking to a different person. Like he'd been broken a little bit.

Yeah. He didn't sound like the a hundred percent didn't sound like the same person. I know. And I, I've never talked to him, I've never been with him where he is not smiling as he went in to get taken away by ice. And they, you know, I asked to go with him because I had my legal guardianship paper and I tried to walk back and they were like, Nope. And I was like, never. I'm keep on walking. Right. I kept trying to follow him and they, you know, physically stopped me from going back with him. And, uh, he was still smiling, even though he was worried. He was at that point still smiling and, but on the phone you could hear the sadness in his voice. Um, I don't know. It's, uh. They're designed to break you and you want to keep everybody's spirits up when you're talking to 'em, but you can't also help be, um, totally heartbroken and emotional and not want to just bust out crying. I called my brother after I got off the phone and he had some really good news about his son, uh, who's transitioning in Clara, and she wore a dress in public for the first time, which was huge. And all I could do was cry. I don't, the emotional rollercoaster of the last week for me has been, you feel an outpouring of love from the community and support and my friends that showed up that don't show up at things like that, but they were there to, they knew that we cared about Cesar and Josar, so they were there, there were people that care about, what's amazing is these people got arrested for people they don't know. I don't know what I would've done if I didn't know them. I, I don't know. I've been so frustrated the last six months. So, and it's, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? Yeah. How are we gonna make a difference? Because to me, going and standing in a park doesn't really seem to make a difference because nobody really cares if 5 million people go stand in parks. Yeah. Like, but there's this rollercoaster of feeling good. And then there's, uh, calls with lawyers where it's, um, super discouraging because they're on, uh, expedited, uh, removal, removal process. And I don't know how to stop that. And then I'm talking to Marcus Elli about the young man that was, uh, also, uh, one of the parents on the soccer team that this happened. Uh, I think it was in February. And he got picked up. Right. And Marcus has been doing everything in his power and then put me in touch with a few people. And you know, the friend of his in Seattle that I talked to yesterday that Marcus had put me in touch with was like, have you done this and have you done this? Yeah, we're doing that, we're doing that, we're doing that. And they're like, I don't know what else there is. And then you're talking to the lawyer and they're like, yeah, they're on an expedited deportation plan. So you have this thing like, if I finally put my body on the line, we're gonna put a stop to this. Right? You have some like, I'm gonna save at least two people and that's all I can do. And it's probably, it's probably not going to work. And they're probably gonna be deported. And no matter how hard we keep working, it's, and so what are we doing to stop the machine? Yeah. Is is my, in my mind, I'm just constantly, that's all I can think about. I don't give a about politics. I don't care about what politician you're not supposed to critique. I don't care about, um. What your idea of justice is. All I know is what's right and wrong, and right now things are wrong.

You obviously couldn't have done what you know the stopped them for as long as you did without other people. I think we saw your, my colleague, Aaron Sellers, and I saw your posts a few minutes after you made it around one and you were calling people to come down around two, so like an hour. This was not a planned protest. This was No, this was

a hundred percent spontaneous.

And, and in response to, like, you were down there with Cesar and they separated you and then, then did they say that he was being detained? Oh yeah. They came out, they came back out and they said, well, we

gave him like this huge packet of information that has all their legal documents that I have with me, and I carry 'em around everywhere I go. Yeah. And they came out seven minutes later. They didn't even look at 'em. They just said, we're detaining them. And we're like, okay. What do you mean you're detaining them? Well, we're, um, gonna take 'em to Tacoma and they're gonna have a hearing in Tacoma either tonight or tomorrow morning. And we're like, what do you mean a hearing? Here's here's their hearing dates for their asylum in October. Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's well in the future. And yeah, they're on humanitarian parole and they're like, no, we're taking 'em to Tacoma. And we're like, okay, so can we go see them in there? No, you can't. Okay. Can we give him a hug? Goodbye. No, you can't. Um, and then, so I asked the gentleman, why are you detaining him? And he is like, I don't know. Then why are you doing it? And his answer was, we're just doing what we're told because it's our job. Which is, that's the defense they used at the Nuremberg trials was, I'm just doing my job. Yeah. And it was, that was their defense of, you have a choice. We can all work for ice. Or you can quit your job because it's immoral. Right. It's the same thing when you're out there blasting protestors that are standing there trying to protect their fellow human beings. You have a choice. Yeah. It's like you have a choice to send in the police or not. It's a yes or no. Right. And you're making that choice, not us. Yeah. And all of it, people are making bad choices and immoral choices that a history is not gonna be kind on. Yeah. so go back to the spontaneous protest. Well, and

you, you were, you said, I said we're going to s is gonna come down. And I think you said something to the effect, you know, hope people show up. And it didn't, it wasn't like the huge, you know, showing that those early protests after the murder of George Floyd in 2020, but in some ways it. Almost felt a little better organized like that. All these various groups had been working together for five years and, and it, and it slowly grew. But to start with, it looked like it was, I saw Jack Archer, I saw Liz Moore from PJ ls, Jack Archer from Scar and, and other things. Uh, obviously Latinas in Spokane was down there. Jennifer Mesa was down there. Like who, what did you hear from that core group? Or did you hear, did you hear that people were coming or did No, I had

no idea. And then I was so thankful because like Liz Moore and Jack Archer have been trained in, uh, protesting crowd control. What does non-violence mean? Like, I've read my share of Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. But like, I don't think I touched the mic, the bullhorn, but one time, yeah, over that seven hours because, um. Some people that knew what they were doing were there and it, I was so grateful that they were there and that they were, um, continually every 15 minutes talking about nonviolence, um, talking about you being disciplined and everybody was listening to them. Um, and I was in awe that they were there. Like I thought it'd be a dozen of my friends. Yeah. And me, and they'd wait us out. Yeah. Or I'd wait them out. Right. Yeah. Like, release my friends. Yeah. But I didn't think you'd have people that knew what they were doing. Yeah. Um, show up. So that was amazing. And then people were bringing pizzas, sandwiches, how, I don't know how many pallets of water got brought down for everybody. I did a Facebook post, and then I think Anne texted a couple of our friend groups and that was it. Wow. And then it just took off, which I'm, and I gotta say, having the media there is absolutely, like, integral to, um, any mass movement working, because if it happens, that all could have happened. But if none of it would've been covered, nobody would've known about it and it would've died, uh, down within, uh, 10 minutes. yeah. So there were a ton of amazing people. Um, it was spontaneous though. Yeah. Which I think is part of why it was successful. 'cause if we all just go to a park on Saturday and you know about it for a month. Right. So there is a reason to do spontaneous actions and part of that is, is nobody knows what the, the power that you're challenging doesn't have time to prepare for it. They don't know that it's coming and it's then it's human based too. And it's not up planned action on Saturday. This is happening. It's a. They took my friends, we're gonna stop 'em. Yeah. And that is, to me, so much more powerful than any planned uh, action. Unless you keep it human and focused on real things that are happening right then. 'cause it's really abstract. Yeah. If you're just talking about ice. Yeah. But if you're talking about Cesar and Josar people, everybody knows and loves you have and that is representative of these bigger policies that we've all gotta be concerned about, it's,

well, it's, I mean it's back to the humanizing what we talk, it's like the abstraction of like this policy position that the Trump administration has taken toward immigrants and retroactively or, you know, post hoc undoing things and sending people who are here legally out country. That's all, you know. We can understand why that's bad in theory, but Yeah. When you put a face to

face to it, you know them. Right. Or if somebody, you know, knows 'em, the degrees of separation is only one, then yeah, I'm gonna go do something about it.

So when did you get picked up? When did you get actually arrested?

I think it was seven 30. Okay. Um,

yeah, I think it, I saw that you got, you actually got booked into the jail around eight 10 or something like that. Yeah. So,

and I'd say that makes sense because they hot boxed us for about 40 minutes in

the car. In like a, in

a, yeah. They parked the van in the, um, entryway and then they turn it off and leave. And we were in a closed van with zero ventilation, um, in a room that had zero ventilation that was like 90 degrees outside. And I think it, it was worse in the van for that 40 minutes than the sauna I was in at my friend's house a week ago. Like, and I don't know how hot saunas get, but you sweat a lot. Yeah. So we were all, there were six of us in that side and then there were two, I think on the other side. And, uh, it was the worst thing. And like out of the six of us, justice was in our van and he'd been the only one of six that had ever been arrested before. Right. And then Naida from the, the chair of the Spokane down Democrats was in there. And when the young woman beside me started having a panic attack, literally breathing, panic attack, had to go to the bathroom, was overheated. She's having a panic attack. So, you know, we had group led breathing exercises to, because you're just dripping sweat. And then I had, uh, the poor young woman next to me had to use me as a wipe. And then the woman on this side of me had to use me as a wipe. And I'm sweating. So later at 2:00 AM when I'm getting my clothes back and putting my clothes on. 'cause I did get an orange jumpsuit, which I don't have a picture of me in the orange jumpsuit, but I want one. Um, but as I'm putting my clothes on, I could, I drained. You'd ring it out. I rang my clothes out. They were so sweaty from the hot boxing, but so they hot boxed us and that was the, to me, that was just unnecessary and awful. And I think it's probably designed to pacify you before you go in for booking. Wow. Um, but when I was booking, I had conversations with every employee in that jail, and I'm figuring out, I'm figuring out my thoughts on the jail, but I know for a fact that Did you talk to Ru about this? Every part of that jail is old, dirty, gross, disgusting, and nobody should go to work there. Yeah. And it's inhumane working conditions. And then when you get up to the rooms, and I don't know, maybe they were always clean and they just put us in bad rooms, but I had eggshells all over the floor and garbage all over the floor and used toothbrushes in our sink and used toothpaste in our sink and bugs on the wall. Um, and just dirt everywhere. It was, it was disgusting. And we better figure out as a community what we're gonna do with our jail, because right now nobody should be working or being detained in the Spokane County Jail. Awful.

Well, in any given day, there's like seven to 800 people in that

jail. Yeah. And though that's, that's seven to 800 people in our community in the jail that are being treated inanely and the hundreds that work there every day. And so we need to figure it out. And I don't know how that works because you've got a group of people that are never gonna vote to increase taxes over here on the right. You've got the middle that wants a compromise or wants a better justice system, but would probably vote for it if we came up with a better justice system instead of just punishment base jail. Yeah. And then over here you've got a group that's probably never gonna vote for a jail at all. Right, and I see all their points of view because right now I'm paying taxes and my taxes are going towards this jail. That super inhumane, super inhumane. But somehow they gotta figure out that middle, where there's a better justice system that everybody can get around that's more based around smart justice, but comes with a new detention center. Because as long as we're putting people in that detention center, we are creating recidivism. The, the structure itself and the inhumane of it is creating a problem in our justice system.

You know, when the, the last, the failed jail thing happened? What was that, two years ago? Yeah. Whatever the, the thing that was maddening to me about that was, and I know it was, it was put out by the county, which, you know, it's a conservative county commission that was, was that before or was that right at the beginning of the five commissioners era?

I don't remember

either way. It's a majority of. Like they, they were using data that said we needed a jail that could house 1500 or 2000 people. And, uh, and um, like what ha when, when they let half of the jail population out, um, during COVID crime didn't go up. And I know the dynamics of COVID were strange, but the lockdowns only, or, you know, the, the sheltering in place only lasted like a month or so. Right. And those, and then it took two or three years for the, the population to get back up to kind of what it historically been before. And crime rates did not go up. No. We're tracking that pretty closely, so, no.

So we need to be able to think about what is criminal justice and what is punishment.

Yeah. Um, so did you get to chat either in the van ride over or, or subsequently with Justice and like how, what was their frame of mind like and did they know? At the time that they, like everybody else was getting a misdemeanor failure to disperse and they were getting a, a seven count

felony. No, no. I don't think justice knew what was coming at all. Yeah. Um, no, they didn't mention that at all. Um, there's this psychological thing that happens and I, I did talk to a therapist about it the other day. Yeah. Um, yesterday, in fact, because there, I know there are people that were there. I know there's therapists that are actually working to, uh, provide free services to people that were there that are experiencing PTSD. Right. Um, and I'm trying to get that list so I can share it. Um, so that, 'cause I got a pretty wide reach right now. Yeah. Um, but I also had this, and I, I don't know how to describe it. and I saw somebody writing about it online, and so I, There's a point, I think, and I don't know in what this takes place, but when I got arrested and short, like shortly before I got arrested, 15 minutes, I went into this place of, um, complete peace in my head and I knew what was gonna happen and I was okay with it. Yeah. And I was actually joyful about it. Mm-hmm. And I don't know what that is, if it's when you're, um, doing something that you know is the right thing to do and you're just at peace with it. Yeah. Or what, but when I got arrested, I, I was stopping myself from smiling. Um, and I was stopping myself from smiling because I thought that would look like a real boob. Like my lawyer said, if you get arrested, you're a boob. Um, but I thought it'd look really like a boob if I, uh, was smiling as I got arrested. But I was completely at peace with it. And then I was reading, uh, somebody that was down there, uh, his blog yesterday and they're a therapist that was writing the blog and they were like, they described it as a moment of zen during the confrontation. Like they just, like, you go outside yourself and you're just like totally at peace with it. Mm-hmm. So like the um, ride over with six of us was a bit of comradery, I gotta say. Like, 'cause you've all just gone through something that may be considered traumatic. Like, I thought it'd be a lot more traumatic getting arrested. But me, I'm, I'm not like a fighting arrest. I'm like, I knew a couple of the cops that were arresting me and was talk, I was talking to him about, uh, the chief and yeah. You know, I'm just an idiot. How's it going with the new chief as I'm getting arrested? Yeah, right. Um, but I was totally at peace with it, and I think justice was at peace with what was happening. And you could sense that. I think everybody in our van was at peace with what was happening because my God, you're just trying to protect people that are being wrongfully detained. I don't know what else to do. Yeah. Like I feel like if you're in a situation where you feel like you don't have a choice and you just gotta act, you feel different about things. Yeah. I don't know. I, I don't know if that makes any sense what I'm saying. No, there's does, there's like some moment of in that came across me that I don't think I've ever felt my entire life. Yeah. And then you feel like almost guilt about that. Like, why would I feel good about getting arrested?

Well maybe it's 'cause you knew you're, you were probably gonna be one of the ones that had the misdemeanor and not the seven count felonies. Like, oh, I

don't know. The rumors are flying that there's gonna be a federal grand jury.

So on that topic, I know you handed your phone off to your wife. Yeah. You said they kept Justice's phone and, and there are just rumors flying that they've been handed over to the FBI or Oh yeah. I've involved

two people specifically messaged me. Mothers that their, uh, one was their son got arrested with their phone and another was her daughter had been arrested. And they told 'em when they called to get their phones back the next day, um, they were given an agent at the FBI's name and number. Oh, wow. So FBI has the phones. Okay, we'll follow up. And so nobody about

that. That's a, that's a story we wanna track down is like, what, FBI doesn't have the phones

unless they're breaking into 'em and trying to file some federal charges. Well, and

we saw some stuff online where people were saying like, there's a random, you know, a, a Windows computer in Tacoma or something that's, um, that's like trying to log in and I've, I don't know, a Windows computer, so it can't be me trying to log into my Gmail account or whatever. So it really, and again, like this is all like, just the, the threads of what might make a story outta that, but it really does seem like they're trying to, they're trying to find if this is a network or, or they're trying to like. Draw connections between people is what it sounds like. Oh yeah. It was a

huge conspiracy. Me posting a post on Facebook. Yeah. Whatever. What a bunch of weirdos, but like seriously. Yeah. Come on. Did you think I knew that my friends would get detained and I, we sat the night before 45 of us. What a bunch of Yeah. Like just, they're so desperate to, you know, you saw the post about how like, I'm sexually abusing those young men and that's why they got, they turned themselves into ice. Yeah. That was wild. And like, and then they're like, why does a 21-year-old young man need a guardian? Well, of course been sexually abusing him. Yeah. Like they're so desperate to like, come up with some other reason other than, man, they took my friends. Yeah. Like, that's as simple. It's as simple as it gets. Either I go home or I try to stop 'em from taking my friends. It's a, I don't know what other option we have because. The legal system isn't working. Uh, they came here legally. They went to a check-in and they kidnapped him. So what else do you have other than to stop 'em? It's not some nefarious plot. There's nobody paying people. I like got a call from a friend works at Gonzaga and she said she was with some pretty moderate folks the other day and they were like, well, yeah, Ben Stucker got paid to do that whole thing. Holy crap. Oh wow. Like that's absurd. That is ab That is, that is absolutely absurd that somebody figured out that my friends were gonna get taken that day and paid me to act out. Yeah. Can't we just accept that we should care for each other? Yeah. And that should be the driving force of everything is caring for our fellow human beings. I

don't know. I do think it, it seems like the, as far as I can tell from social media and not just the circles that I run in, but it really does seem like. This is on Reddit. It's kind of all over. It's like the comments on the, like, I mean, I feel like I have to read the comments of nude stories because it's kind of my job, but like I don't, I don't recommend other people do. It's like even in the worst corners of the most toxic corners of the local internet, it feels like at least a plurality of people thought that this was the right move. And, um, in a lot of places, I think it was the overwhelming immaturity. So I wanted, maybe we could finish up with, um, talking about solidarity. So you're the, you're the executive director of a Spokane low income housing consortium right Now. You obviously have a, a life in politics before that, but like low income, one of the things that's really struck me is how much solidarity there was three days later at Pride. With where like, I don't know, 10 years ago, I don't think that like pride and like, and immigration would've been as tightly joined as they were. They had a little bit of, they had a Stonewall rally for the first year. This year you told me that you, you're board of people who care about low income, you know, housing for low income folks. You let them know that this was gonna happen and you were probably gonna get arrested and you were supported. It feels like, in a way that was just kind of beginning to come into being, or people were sort of testing the waters of that level of like, just whatever your, your main issue is that you're advocating on coming together to support immigrants and hoping that then the folks who care about immigration are gonna support like a low income housing fight or something. It feels like that's really it. It just felt overwhelmingly like there was so much more. Or at least the, the solidarity that I, I feel like I start, we were starting to see in 2020 has really deepened, uh, locally. Yeah, a hundred percent. And I'd

say, uh, so while I was there protesting, and it was about four o'clock, and I talked to my board chair who's the, um, CEO of Habitat humanity. And I apologized for what was happening and I wasn't working that afternoon. And that there's a great potential that the mayor at that point was talking about sending the police and Yeah. And, uh, I apologized to her and she said, absolutely. Not. You don't apologize at all because everybody deserves an affordable house in Spokane, and that includes everybody. And that's what you're out there trying to do is keep our boys home. Um, solidarity is where it's at. That's how we show our common humanity. Yeah. Um, and that's how we, if you're, I don't care what you're working in, if you're working in banking, you want clients, you want good clients that are working. So we care for the immigrant population. You want good employees, you're gonna make sure you care for the LGBT community because it's, they're outstanding members of our community. Like we gotta show solidarity. And it was, it's absolutely amazing when you think about like and advocacy organization for housing. I'm spending my time as well protecting other members of our community. And that's exactly how it has to be. Because when Jennifer and Amy and Ann and I sat outside because Amy and Ann and I were in the waiting room, and then we called Jennifer was the first call we made, and Jennifer looked at me and she said, this can't come from me. It can't come from the immigrant community anymore. Yeah. It needs to be, it needs to be white people. Yeah. And that's, it needs to be each of us protecting each of us and using our privilege. If I have a following and. I have a, a, a wife that can not get arrested and I can get arrested though, and she can take care of the dog, then I need to get arrested. That's what we, each need to do is take care of each other and show that solidarity and be willing to use our privilege because we, we, I have a very, very comfortable life and if I can use that to protect others, then I have to. Yeah. And at this point, what are we gonna do? We, we're in a really bad situation as a country. Yeah. A really horrible situation. That's heartbreaking for so many. We need to show solidarity with each other and put our lives on the line for each other. Yeah. It's all we can do. It's all we have. So where

did, just to end, um, I mean I guess that was, I like asking where people get their hope. I'm, I guessing that that's kind of where you get your hope. Is the solidarity you found in, in the line, or where, where are you finding your hope right now?

I just, my friends showing up, people showing up the other day that. Had no relationship with the boys, willing to, you know, when you're sharing a, um, Martin was my cellmate. Mm. Um, I just like saying that my cellmate, um, Martin was my cellmate. Martin is 19. Wow. Wow. Martin has other legal problems that this could really negatively affect his life. And yesterday I finally found him. He found me and messaged me and then I messaged him back and it's his birthday. And, uh, his birthday was Friday. Um, when he turned 19, the kid's 18 years old, going to jail for other people. And I asked him how he was doing and he said, just bring those boys back. Hmm. He doesn't know those boys, but he cares about those boys. And that's what we all gotta keep hope on, is we each care for each other and we keep fighting for each other. 'cause

it's all we got left. And it's like the, the transitive property, it's like if. I care about Ben, and Ben cares about these boys, I'm gonna show up for Ben and the boys, or, you know, whatever. Um,

or if I ever get taken. Well, yeah, I, I hope people show up for me that don't know me. Yeah. And we, and kinda just stick the, stick the stick in the spoke and destroy the machine. So is that It's a bad machine. It's broken. We've transferred $79 trillion worth of wealth to the top 10% of our country. Over the last 40 years. $79 trillion of wealth has gone from the lower class and the middle class to the upper class. We have destroyed our country with money and politics. We have destroyed our country with tax cuts to the rich in an unfair, unequal system. And you saw it in Washington State where the Democrats control the, the governor's office, the Senate, and the House. And certain Senate members and house members came up with a progressive tax measure because Washington State is the second worst, most aggressive tax structure. Yeah. 49th. If you're progressive, you'd be first. Washington is 49th in the country in horrible tax systems that tax the poor more than the wealthy. They put forward proposals. And my understanding from everybody I've talked to in that legislature that works over there in a variety of manners is, is the billionaires in Washington state have an avenue to our governor's office and to the heads of our political parties and put a quash to 'em and went like this. Yeah. And that's absolutely So if the Democrats can't get it done, then get rid of the Democrats too. Politics does not matter. It's, it's no longer a matter of what's the least worst alternative we need to fix this because it ends up, it's not just Trump. We can get rid of Trump, but if we're transferring $79 trillion worth of wealth to the top 10%, that's, that's a permanent mis structure that has to be radically restructured. And the only way that we're gonna do that is radically restructure our political system and our political parties and throw them all out.

I mean, I, I just posted about this article I read in the Atlantic that baby boomers are struggling. Like we knew Gen X was struggling. We knew millennials and and Zoomers are struggling financially. There's like this Atlantic article that just dropped yesterday that, so this, this whole PO post-war, you know, abundance that we created after World War II and took our, and, you know, our military industrial, you know, a, a big chunk of the war production and turned it to, you know, building the suburbs and building the freeways that didn't even last two full generations, right? So now we have the fir the children of the people that built that system are struggling to survive as they reach retirement and beyond. Um, and, and then to your point about the Democrats, like this is all national stuff, but it really felt like echoed in what we were hearing from people who were fighting for those more progressive measures. Um, at the state legislature this year. Was that like. The, the poll that just came out that like trumps at like a 38% approval rating and the, and the congressional Republicans are at a 31% approval rating, which would be great. Except the demo Democrats are, Democrats are at like 25 or something. Yeah. So it's like everybody hates everything that's going on in our country and it feels like, so I guess then, you know, we've already gone to hope, there's no alternative and we're follow, we're sliding back into despair. So like it really does you think that like going forward and, and for this summer and in Spokane really it's just throwing, putting something in the spokes is like really all we can do burn.

Burn it down Luke. Yeah, burn it all down. Alright. I've been totally radicalized. I'm totally radicalized. I've always been a very progressive person, but I'm finished playing by their rules. It's done.

Well Ben Stucker, thanks for, thanks for taking the time in. I really appreciate it.

Thanks Luke. Appreciate all arranged us.