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Everything is worse at
three in the morning.

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There's that to-do list piling up or
that early clinic you've got to make,

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or that thing you said to your colleague
that you just can't stop thinking about.

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These worries just pile up at night
and that's on top of that cheeky glass

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of wine late at night or that piece of
cheese or that doom scrolling when all

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you meant to do was set your alarm.

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And we are constantly told how important
getting a good night's sleep is,

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particularly in a high stakes job.

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But it's easier said than done,
and it does feel like something

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we don't have much control over.

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So this week in our summer wellbeing
series, I'm joined by Dr. Steve Smith.

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He's a GP and a self-certified insomniac,
and he's developed some training to

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help people get a good night's sleep.

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Now Steve has worked extensively in
the field of substance abuse, and he's

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previously been on the podcast talking
about the importance of forgiveness,

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particularly as a mental health strategy,
and he's found some unexpected connections

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between substance abuse and sleep,
and he's sharing some of his tried and

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tested strategies as well as some new
and surprising ways to improve both the

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quality and the quantity of your sleep.

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Spoiler alert is not just about REM sleep.

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So grab yourself a hot, milky drink,
preferably without any caffeine

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if it's after midday, and enjoy
this conversation with Steve.

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And if you want to start putting
his advice into practice, stay tuned

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for an exclusive discount on his
course, especially for Frog listeners.

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If you're in a high stress, high stakes,
still blank medicine, and you're feeling

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stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or
getting out are not your only options.

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I'm Dr. Rachel Morris, and
welcome to You Are Not a Frog.

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Well, hello, I'm Dr. Steve Smith.

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I am a GP and for two or three decades
I've been working as a GP specialist

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in substance misuse in addiction.

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but in more recent years I have been
working, on the subjects of sleep

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and have a great interest in sleep.

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And I'm currently working in a clinic
in North London where a big part of our

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work is helping people with sleep issues.

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great to have you back on the podcast,
Steve, 'cause you've been here

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before talking about forgiveness.

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Coming up to a year ago.

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Gosh.

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And I, it is interesting 'cause that
was a big part of your work with,

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um, people with addiction as well.

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You found forgiveness was a real,
a real thing that people needed to

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sort of get to the bottom of it.

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Is that the same reason why you
got into sleep and stuff like that?

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I think sleep, sleep is very
much a big part of why people

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are addicted to substances.

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But one of the, my main interests in sleep
is my own personal journey with insomnia.

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So I've, I've described myself as
having been a certified insomniac.

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So, um, that's, that's been a big
motivator to, to, to study it more,

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to look into it and, you know,
done a lot of reading, attended

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seminars, uh, and and so on.

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So that's, that's, um, so it's
been, been professional and

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personal interest in sleep.

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how long have you been a, a
certified professional insomniac for?

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So when, when did your issues
with Sleeping first start?

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I, I was actually thinking about that
'cause I was, I and I, I've, I've

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thought about it a, a number of times.

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I really cannot remember having
any sleep issues as a child.

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But what I really, really remember
having, when I really ha remember having

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sleep problems was as a junior doctor.

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We, I know as you, as you
know, we used to work sometimes

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these ridiculously long shifts.

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I remember starting on a Saturday morning
when I did a one in four weekend and

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I was always on call on Monday nights.

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Um, so I would, I would start on Saturday
morning doing a busy surgical job

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where there were always things going
on during the night or very often.

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And then I would go home on Tuesday, five
o'clock crash and would you believe it?

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I was on call Mondays and Wednesdays.

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And so then, then I would have,
then I would work from Wednesday

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morning till Thursday evening.

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So it was just an exhausting job.

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And, and then when there were
opportunities to sleep, whether it

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was between cases in the middle of the
night or when I got home, I was just

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so often obsessed with, I've gotta
sleep, gotta sleep, that I absolutely

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had good doses of sleep anxiety.

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So yeah, uh, it's been on
and off over the years.

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but I, I really understand the issue
of sleep anxiety, which, which is one

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of the major causes of, of insomnia.

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Because you don't often hear
much about that, do you?

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When when people talk about sleep, they
talk about sleep hygiene, yeah, yeah,

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we all pretty much know what to do.

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But the sleep anxiety and it exists.

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I'm literally thinking about three
times in the last month where I've

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had exactly that where my daughter hap
had an operation on her foot, so we're

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having to get up really early to get
her to the mini bus to get to school.

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I'm not sleeping so well 'cause I'm
waking up and checking my clock.

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I was doing a keynote talk in Edinburgh.

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It started at 8 45.

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I had a really nice hotel.

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It was really comfortable.

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I hardly slept a wink that night
because I was so worried about missing

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my alarm to get up to to do it.

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It was just a bit mad really.

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So it sleep anxiety, something that
happens to everybody or just a few

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people, or It happens to most people
occasionally, but there are some

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few people that get it really bad?

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What I would say is it's a major
cause of anxiety and it is totally,

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ugh, not totally, but it's largely
overlooked and poorly understood.

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And I think also by medical professionals,
by healthcare professionals.

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And I, I was at St. George's
Hospital in the 1980s, actually

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the seventies, let's be honest.

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where I was at medical school and it was a
particular medical school where sleep was

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taught probably better than other places.

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But we didn't have very
much about sleep at all.

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And the only lesson, the only
lecture I can remember on sleep.

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Sleep hygiene.

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That's all we were told.

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Yeah, tell them, you know, not to
drink too much coffee and maybe,

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maybe have a milky drink and exercise
here and there and all those things

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that maybe we can talk about.

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'Cause they're, they are important.

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I mean, they, they, they are part of,
what people need to tackle, but it's

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not, it's not the most important thing.

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It's, it is, it's, the way I look at
how to help people is, is, is there's

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various steps in, in how I help people.

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And one, one of them is sleep hygiene,
which needs to be looked at early on.

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But, but absolutely is the
anxiety of not sleeping that is

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what really keeps people awake.

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And people, time and time again,
especially when I'm, when I'm

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working in an addiction clinic,
people just don't get that.

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'cause they, they've learned.

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They've taught themselves
that it's substances that they

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need to, to get through life.

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And, and of course it's not, not,
that's, that's true for so many people,

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whether or not they go to a drug clinic.

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And they've learned that, yeah,
if I take this, I sleep well.

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And if I don't take it,
I don't, I don't sleep.

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Um, and so this, they take a lot of
persuading that anxiety is an issue and

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I'm, that's the clinic I'm working in now.

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I'm working in a clinic now where
we're helping people manage,

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prescribed benzos that's a and
another and opiates and z drugs.

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And it's, it's a big lesson to, for
them to learn that it's sleep anxiety.

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'Cause, 'cause so often when people
have been taking a substance.

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whether it's prescribed or it's illicit
or whatever, the, the substance has

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actually stopped working a long time ago.

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It's, it's, it's lost its benefit, but
it's, it's the reason why they don't

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sleep when they don't take their,
whatever it is, they have their, their

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cannabis, alcohol, promethazine, whatever
it is, the reason why sleep is poor

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is, is because they're thinking, oh
no, I haven't had my sleeping tablet.

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I'm not gonna sleep well.

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like most things in life, the,
the root is all up here, isn't it?

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It's the way we think about everything
and, and, and what's going for us, and

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those underlying concerns and worries.

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Absolutely.

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I mean, I've heard you talking about
things at different times, um, in

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relation to stress management and so on.

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the whole Chimp Paradox, you
know, the limbic system, it's a

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big part of, of sleep management

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And it's really interesting
'cause I must say, yeah, I haven't

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really heard about it before.

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So obviously there's a, a great book,
Matthew Walker, why We Sleep, you

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know, fantastic and recommend everybody
to, I think every single healthcare

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professional should read that, not
just for themselves, but so they

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can advise their patients about it.

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So, um, quick, quick summary.

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Let's just give it like a one
minute summary, um, Steve,

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of why we need to sleep.

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So I wanna go on and talk more about sleep
anxiety, but let's get out of the way,

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first of all, why sleep is important.

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And number two, quick, you know,
32nd summary of sleep hygiene.

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'cause I think, you know,
we, we just need to know it.

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And then it's, let's look at the thing
that actually really makes a difference.

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So why sleep?

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Important quick

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my goodness.

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That, that's such a big subject.

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Okay.

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It's so important for, for
our life, for our health, for

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our wellbeing, for creativity.

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So just quickly for our life,
you did, did you know that if you

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consistently sleep less than five
hours at night, Your, your risk of

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death from all causes is 15% greater.

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If you sleep less consistently, sleep
less than six hours, at night, you,

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you have a 30% increased risk of
cardiovascular disease and diabetes.

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One is 55% more likely to be obese
if you're sleeping less than seven

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hours actually compared to somebody
who sleeps more than seven hours.

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One really big deal.

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I mean, this is really big, a really big
deal for healthcare professionals who

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are managing people in general practice.

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It's, I really like to stress
that mental health and insomnia

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are a two-way street because.

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We were all taught in medical school
that somebody's come, somebody

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presents with insomnia, oh, they must
be depressed, probably depressed.

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And, and that was certainly
how I used to think.

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I mean, that's how I, I, I understood most
GPs thinking that they're not sleeping.

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Well, why are they depressed?

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Let's put 'em on antidepressants.

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And what's really interesting is how
many people are anxious or depressed,

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primarily because they've got insomnia.

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Gosh.

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And it is, it's, and that's
so overlooked, um, by so many.

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And they are depressed.

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They are depressed, but, and so the
antidepressants will probably help.

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But, but the, but the primary
issue is, is, is the insomnia.

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Memory.

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uh, dementia.

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So we detox, our brains are busy detoxing,
uh, ourselves of beta amyloid, you the

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protein that's, uh, associated with
Alzheimer's in the brain during the night.

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And there are so many stories
of, of people just not sleeping

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and, and obviously dementia's
common anyway, but it's very like,

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closely linked with, poor sleep.

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I mean, I remember in the 1980s, uh,
I don't, you know, there might be

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others listening to this, remembering
about the power of, of power naps.

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You know, you could sleep, you could,
you could rest for 10 minutes and have

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the equivalent of two hours sleep.

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And that just seemed amazing.

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And I think that's how people
like Margaret Thatcher got by,

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just by, working all night, having
these little power nap and, and

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functioning, but massive correlation
with, with memory loss and dementia.

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So that, that, are those
a few good reasons,

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Gosh, that that's good enough for me.

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Yeah.

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yeah.

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And, and just productivity, creativity,
um, um, they're massive as well.

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It's just the, it's the laying down of
memories and the solving of problems

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and things that particularly happens
in your REM sleep, doesn't it?

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And I think for me, yes, let's,
let's get rid of all the AM amyloid.

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But actually, if you wanna have
an impact, if you want to solve

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problems and, and feel better,
you need a good night's sleep.

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So there's stuff we can do.

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And if I was to list sleep hygiene as
a, if I remember back to my GP days,

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it's make, make the bedroom really dark.

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Make it cold-ish, you know, not too well,
not too cold, but not too hot either.

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Um, don't have any caffeine from midday.

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'cause the half, the half
life of caffeine is six hours.

225
00:11:16,196 --> 00:11:18,236
So you'll still have aquar,
quarter of the strong cup of

226
00:11:18,461 --> 00:11:19,031
I thought it was eight

227
00:11:19,136 --> 00:11:19,796
system, or

228
00:11:19,871 --> 00:11:20,231
Yeah.

229
00:11:20,231 --> 00:11:21,671
Or well, whatever.

230
00:11:21,671 --> 00:11:21,971
Yeah, it's,

231
00:11:22,046 --> 00:11:22,496
yeah.

232
00:11:22,736 --> 00:11:25,856
So avoid caffeine and, and chocolate
and stuff like that before bed.

233
00:11:25,886 --> 00:11:28,286
Um, sound, you know, go somewhere quiet.

234
00:11:28,316 --> 00:11:30,056
Um, go to bed at the same time.

235
00:11:30,056 --> 00:11:32,156
Get up at the, get up at the same time.

236
00:11:32,239 --> 00:11:33,199
Absolutely.

237
00:11:33,199 --> 00:11:33,679
Yes.

238
00:11:33,715 --> 00:11:38,474
we are really conditionable creatures,
you know, we all know Pavlov's,

239
00:11:38,714 --> 00:11:43,334
Pavlov's dogs and, and, and we can
do so much to condition ourselves

240
00:11:43,664 --> 00:11:45,794
to, to sleep, to sleep well.

241
00:11:46,244 --> 00:11:50,684
Um, and so you, you mentioned things about
the bedroom, have the bedroom cool, dark,

242
00:11:51,134 --> 00:11:55,174
um, have a good sleeping environment,
but, but, but have the bed bedroom.

243
00:11:55,338 --> 00:12:01,878
Only associated in your mind with, with
sleep and intimacy and nothing else.

244
00:12:02,208 --> 00:12:02,388
No.

245
00:12:02,388 --> 00:12:04,818
Scrolling through your,
and, and get, keep, get your

246
00:12:04,818 --> 00:12:06,018
phone away from your bedroom.

247
00:12:06,228 --> 00:12:07,218
Uh, oh my goodness.

248
00:12:07,378 --> 00:12:11,638
But, um, you know, when, when people
are watching TV, even reading, studying,

249
00:12:11,658 --> 00:12:15,498
working, scrolling through Instagram,
whatever it may be in the bedroom,

250
00:12:15,566 --> 00:12:17,366
we condition ourselves to be awake.

251
00:12:17,636 --> 00:12:20,936
And that's not even taking into
account the blue light, which maybe,

252
00:12:21,026 --> 00:12:23,137
um, is also not insignificant.

253
00:12:23,467 --> 00:12:26,737
So, so all those things that
we've discussed, really important.

254
00:12:26,737 --> 00:12:31,749
You've mentioned rhythm, and I
think I, I, I like to con consider

255
00:12:31,749 --> 00:12:36,404
rhythm as such a massive subject in
itself that it, that it warrants.

256
00:12:36,464 --> 00:12:40,064
A whole, whole discussion,
a whole course, a whole, um,

257
00:12:40,304 --> 00:12:41,714
session because it's so important.

258
00:12:41,984 --> 00:12:42,284
Yes.

259
00:12:42,284 --> 00:12:45,824
Get, let's get up, let's get up
consistently, get up in a good time in the

260
00:12:45,824 --> 00:12:47,594
morning and go to bed at the same time.

261
00:12:47,594 --> 00:12:51,412
'Cause 'cause then we're, I mean, do we
wanna talk about the, the sleep drive?

262
00:12:51,412 --> 00:12:54,832
But the, there's two, two things that are
important for sleep drive and one of them

263
00:12:54,832 --> 00:12:57,442
is circadian rhythm and that's massive.

264
00:12:57,892 --> 00:13:00,502
And so if we, if we can be
consistent in when we are getting

265
00:13:00,502 --> 00:13:02,182
up, that will really help.

266
00:13:02,212 --> 00:13:04,042
And then conversely when we go to bed.

267
00:13:04,582 --> 00:13:09,082
But also resting, you know, re that,
that's, um, I like to say the fight

268
00:13:09,082 --> 00:13:13,342
for the night is fought in the day
and, and, and, and so we need to have

269
00:13:13,342 --> 00:13:17,962
a rhythm of rest during the day as well
as during the night and during the week.

270
00:13:18,022 --> 00:13:21,112
You know, I've heard you talking
about rest and, and to rest during

271
00:13:21,112 --> 00:13:24,895
the day, to rest during the week, have
a day off during the week to have.

272
00:13:24,937 --> 00:13:26,857
vacation to have a
holiday during the year.

273
00:13:26,887 --> 00:13:30,497
I mean, I think people who don't
have a holiday, uh, they have

274
00:13:30,497 --> 00:13:33,437
the same increased cardiovascular
risk as people who sleep badly.

275
00:13:33,442 --> 00:13:35,057
And, and there's probably
a massive overlap.

276
00:13:35,062 --> 00:13:38,847
You, you, you are, you are 30% more
likely to have a cardiovascular

277
00:13:38,847 --> 00:13:42,057
event if you, if you're somebody
who doesn't have a holiday.

278
00:13:42,346 --> 00:13:45,116
Well, if you're somebody who doesn't
have a holiday, there's probably a

279
00:13:45,116 --> 00:13:47,906
per, you're probably a personality
type that's not gonna sleep.

280
00:13:47,906 --> 00:13:49,916
So there's probably different
factors that play there.

281
00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:54,350
But, but yeah, lot, lots, lots of things
under, under the heading of sleep hygiene.

282
00:13:54,350 --> 00:13:56,150
But, but they're all important.

283
00:13:56,420 --> 00:13:59,510
But, but I think rhythm is massive

284
00:14:00,234 --> 00:14:01,194
Gosh, there's a lot.

285
00:14:01,194 --> 00:14:03,384
There's a lot there that I'm
quite interested in actually.

286
00:14:03,384 --> 00:14:07,246
Well, first of all, if I, I'm quite
knackered, if I had a few late nights.

287
00:14:07,276 --> 00:14:09,796
Are you saying that actually it
would be better for me to get up

288
00:14:09,796 --> 00:14:12,496
at 7 o'clock on a Saturday morning
than to stay in bed for those two

289
00:14:12,496 --> 00:14:14,356
extra hours if I can till 9 o'clock?

290
00:14:14,710 --> 00:14:18,903
Well, there's something called,
social jet lag, and I can't remember

291
00:14:18,903 --> 00:14:19,838
the name of the psychologist.

292
00:14:19,838 --> 00:14:22,148
It's a German psychologist
who coined that phrase.

293
00:14:22,148 --> 00:14:24,710
Now, if, if, if it is, you know, one off.

294
00:14:24,965 --> 00:14:25,895
Yeah, then yeah, sure.

295
00:14:25,895 --> 00:14:26,945
That's, that's fine.

296
00:14:26,945 --> 00:14:31,265
You had a late night and yeah, we'll sleep
in, if it's a regular pattern, which is

297
00:14:31,265 --> 00:14:34,175
for a lot of people, it's, it's, it's
a massive problem for a lot of people,

298
00:14:34,175 --> 00:14:35,825
they work really hard during the week.

299
00:14:35,825 --> 00:14:37,565
They get up at five in the
morning, four in the morning,

300
00:14:37,565 --> 00:14:38,945
whatever time it is, go to work.

301
00:14:39,209 --> 00:14:41,609
And then, then it's tg.

302
00:14:41,609 --> 00:14:45,419
IF thank God it's Friday party,
Friday late nights watching movies.

303
00:14:45,689 --> 00:14:46,829
Same again Saturday.

304
00:14:47,117 --> 00:14:48,587
and you've just shifted your body clock.

305
00:14:48,587 --> 00:14:51,017
You might as well have flown to mo to
Greece or somewhere, you know, you've,

306
00:14:51,077 --> 00:14:54,902
you've gone forward, you put your, your,
um, clock forward three hours or whatever.

307
00:14:55,312 --> 00:14:59,846
and then suddenly you wanna go to bed
early on Sunday and then get up early on

308
00:14:59,846 --> 00:15:02,486
Monday and it, and it's, it doesn't work.

309
00:15:02,620 --> 00:15:05,470
So, so if you're doing, if you're
doing what you described on a

310
00:15:05,470 --> 00:15:10,090
regular basis and you are sleeping
badly, then that's something that

311
00:15:10,090 --> 00:15:11,800
absolutely needs to be addressed.

312
00:15:11,890 --> 00:15:13,600
And, and there's a phrase
for it as, as I say,

313
00:15:13,855 --> 00:15:16,825
Social jet like that, that
makes a lot of sense to me.

314
00:15:16,855 --> 00:15:17,575
Okay, thank you.

315
00:15:17,575 --> 00:15:18,205
That's useful.

316
00:15:18,385 --> 00:15:19,915
One question students.

317
00:15:19,915 --> 00:15:21,295
Yeah, gosh.

318
00:15:21,500 --> 00:15:23,270
The other thing I wanted
to ask you about was rest.

319
00:15:23,270 --> 00:15:26,540
So are you saying that if you are totally
knackered, you've really not had any

320
00:15:26,540 --> 00:15:30,721
time to rest in the week, I would've
thought, well, you're gonna sleep almost

321
00:15:30,721 --> 00:15:32,071
better 'cause you're so knackered.

322
00:15:32,071 --> 00:15:34,591
Are you saying that actually if you've
not been taking the time to rest,

323
00:15:35,041 --> 00:15:36,691
the quality of your sleep is worse?

324
00:15:36,691 --> 00:15:39,661
Or you don't get to sleep as
easily or you're gonna wake

325
00:15:39,661 --> 00:15:40,801
up earlier in the morning?

326
00:15:41,260 --> 00:15:43,155
Yeah, it's, it's a, it
is a complex answer.

327
00:15:43,646 --> 00:15:48,925
Helping people to sleep better can
involve deliberate sleep deprivation.

328
00:15:48,925 --> 00:15:52,885
So one of the most common ways of
treating people, and I don't think

329
00:15:52,885 --> 00:15:57,203
it's necessarily the be all and end
all is, is, is sleep restriction.

330
00:15:57,203 --> 00:15:58,343
Actually, that's, that's the phrase.

331
00:15:58,823 --> 00:16:03,773
So, so we can improve the quality or,
or the technical term is the term is the

332
00:16:03,773 --> 00:16:07,703
efficiency of our sleep by restricting
our sleep and then we sleep better.

333
00:16:08,344 --> 00:16:11,014
So, so to a degree that we can use that.

334
00:16:11,104 --> 00:16:15,754
But, but what is, what is bad
is, is when, is when we vary

335
00:16:15,754 --> 00:16:17,314
enormously vary what we do.

336
00:16:18,004 --> 00:16:20,494
For example, during the week
as compared to the weekend.

337
00:16:20,884 --> 00:16:23,944
If that's a regular
pattern, that's not good.

338
00:16:24,334 --> 00:16:28,114
There, there are, there are
various myths at play out there.

339
00:16:28,264 --> 00:16:31,024
I've mentioned one, one that I
bought into is that, you know,

340
00:16:31,024 --> 00:16:32,194
you can have these power naps.

341
00:16:32,474 --> 00:16:36,614
Another myth is that you can catch
up with lost sleep at the weekend

342
00:16:36,914 --> 00:16:40,874
and maybe to a degree you can, but
you, you once sleep's lost, it's

343
00:16:40,874 --> 00:16:43,074
lost and you pay a price for it.

344
00:16:43,698 --> 00:16:46,548
So yeah, you know, if you, you get
yourself exhausted during the week,

345
00:16:46,548 --> 00:16:49,368
well yes, you probably will sleep well.

346
00:16:49,368 --> 00:16:52,278
There's, we, we have rebound REM.

347
00:16:52,278 --> 00:16:57,678
you know, we, we are programmed if you
like to get a certain amount of REM sleep.

348
00:16:57,678 --> 00:17:02,748
And if we deprive ourselves of sleep,
then we sort of catch up with it.

349
00:17:02,838 --> 00:17:05,721
So there's a degree of catching up,
which is an interesting subject.

350
00:17:05,784 --> 00:17:08,454
Because a lot of people, it's really
important for people to understand

351
00:17:08,454 --> 00:17:10,824
that whole concept of REM rebound.

352
00:17:10,824 --> 00:17:15,832
A lot of people take substances
to, to sleep well, or so they think

353
00:17:16,003 --> 00:17:17,683
they actually to sedate themselves.

354
00:17:17,683 --> 00:17:19,393
And I like to point out that
there's a big difference

355
00:17:19,393 --> 00:17:21,133
between sedation and good sleep.

356
00:17:21,553 --> 00:17:26,678
And when they're, when they're sedated
with substances, cannabis, alcohol,

357
00:17:26,958 --> 00:17:30,913
whatever it may be, they're not getting
the REM sleep that, that, that they need.

358
00:17:31,243 --> 00:17:34,903
And then, so when they stop taking
the alcohol cannabis, they, they

359
00:17:34,903 --> 00:17:38,923
have a, a REM rebound, and then they
have these vivid dreams, and then

360
00:17:38,923 --> 00:17:41,503
they have these nightmares and, and
then, and then they'll think, oh my

361
00:17:41,503 --> 00:17:43,153
goodness, I need, I need the cannabis.

362
00:17:43,153 --> 00:17:47,053
I need the alcohol to stop, stop
these terrible nightmares, which

363
00:17:47,053 --> 00:17:51,433
is what I have certainly seen
repeatedly, um, in the clinics.

364
00:17:51,523 --> 00:17:55,908
So sleep restriction has its place, but
it's not something that that's, that's

365
00:17:55,908 --> 00:17:58,289
good when it's uneven, as it were.

366
00:17:58,502 --> 00:18:03,168
So are we saying then that REM sleep is
literally the holy grail of sleeping?

367
00:18:03,168 --> 00:18:06,275
That's what we're really trying
to get as much of as possible.

368
00:18:06,478 --> 00:18:06,698
No,

369
00:18:06,993 --> 00:18:08,013
Oh, okay.

370
00:18:08,283 --> 00:18:09,783
I always, I always believed that.

371
00:18:09,783 --> 00:18:12,393
'cause when I had some sleep tracker
on, I was like, it was pretty

372
00:18:12,393 --> 00:18:15,453
low on REM, but, you know, high
on the other things, but, okay.

373
00:18:15,723 --> 00:18:18,093
What type of sleep are we aiming for then?

374
00:18:18,210 --> 00:18:20,100
We, what we want is a nice good cycle.

375
00:18:20,130 --> 00:18:20,910
We want a good cycle.

376
00:18:20,910 --> 00:18:24,120
We want, we want the, the
different, the four phases of sleep.

377
00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:25,500
We want, we want light sleep.

378
00:18:25,740 --> 00:18:30,787
We want deep sleep and, and we wanna
come outta deep sleep with REM sleep.

379
00:18:31,078 --> 00:18:35,668
And you, you referenced
creativity and, and the benefits

380
00:18:35,728 --> 00:18:38,808
to our emotional wellbeing.

381
00:18:38,954 --> 00:18:41,084
During REM sleep, that's massive.

382
00:18:41,384 --> 00:18:43,979
But during deep sleep
where we're out of it.

383
00:18:44,353 --> 00:18:47,743
there's a lot of restoration
going, a lot of muscle rebuilding.

384
00:18:47,758 --> 00:18:51,853
I, I think I'm right in saying
that there's a surge in, um, growth

385
00:18:51,853 --> 00:18:55,118
hormone during, during sleep in
general, but during deep sleep, a

386
00:18:55,118 --> 00:18:57,218
lot of muscle repair takes place.

387
00:18:57,218 --> 00:19:01,718
A lot of, you know, just mentioned
the benefits of sleep, muscle repair.

388
00:19:01,958 --> 00:19:05,918
Athletes are much more likely to have
accidents, to have, to have injuries,

389
00:19:05,918 --> 00:19:08,138
sorry if, if they don't sleep.

390
00:19:08,168 --> 00:19:10,898
So, um, and that, and there's,
you know, various things there.

391
00:19:10,898 --> 00:19:13,538
There's muscle repair,
there's coordination.

392
00:19:13,949 --> 00:19:16,439
Talking of, um, being poorly coordinated.

393
00:19:16,439 --> 00:19:23,489
When we're sleep deprived, we might as
well be intoxicated with alcohol, and

394
00:19:23,489 --> 00:19:27,359
that, and that's something to, to re
remember when you've got doctors that have

395
00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:33,479
been working really long shifts in mental,
mental ability and, and coordination

396
00:19:33,779 --> 00:19:38,159
is impaired by poor sleep, just in
the same way as it is with alcohol.

397
00:19:38,519 --> 00:19:39,029
But no.

398
00:19:39,029 --> 00:19:41,819
So yeah, we want, we want rem
sleep, we want deep sleep and,

399
00:19:41,819 --> 00:19:43,139
and we want the light sleep.

400
00:19:43,504 --> 00:19:48,509
And, and actually understanding what
light sleep is, is, has been for me and

401
00:19:48,509 --> 00:19:50,249
for many people, a game changer as well.

402
00:19:50,609 --> 00:19:54,327
Recognizing that light sleep is
on the edge of consciousness.

403
00:19:54,872 --> 00:19:58,664
' Cause a lot of people are in, are in
light sleep and they're cognizant, they're

404
00:19:58,664 --> 00:20:02,794
thinking things and that what they can
be thinking is, oh no, I'm not sleeping,

405
00:20:02,969 --> 00:20:04,259
when actually they're in light sleep.

406
00:20:04,334 --> 00:20:07,484
so when you've, when all night you
think, I just haven't slept a wink all

407
00:20:07,484 --> 00:20:11,924
night, you probably, you know, without
being like, thing I'm, I'm awake.

408
00:20:11,954 --> 00:20:16,053
But actually it's likely that for
quite a lot of that, if you haven't

409
00:20:16,053 --> 00:20:18,963
been like, just looking around and
thinking, should I get up or not?

410
00:20:19,413 --> 00:20:21,903
But you, you've just been conscious,
you've been thinking all night.

411
00:20:22,233 --> 00:20:24,543
That might be because you've
been in light sleep, not because

412
00:20:24,543 --> 00:20:25,683
you've actually been awake.

413
00:20:25,846 --> 00:20:26,416
Yes.

414
00:20:26,506 --> 00:20:29,746
There there's two conditions that are
worth thinking about in relation to

415
00:20:29,746 --> 00:20:32,596
insomnia, and you've mentioned sleep
tracking and, and then we could bring

416
00:20:32,596 --> 00:20:34,216
sleep tracking into the, into this.

417
00:20:34,966 --> 00:20:38,416
There's ortho insomnia
and paradoxical insomnia.

418
00:20:38,712 --> 00:20:42,942
Now I absolutely remember, see, I
can think of one particular case of

419
00:20:43,122 --> 00:20:46,512
what we call paradoxical insomnia,
where somebody believes themselves

420
00:20:46,902 --> 00:20:51,740
to have slept badly and they have
in fact slept a whole lot better.

421
00:20:51,740 --> 00:20:53,390
I just remember being on the ward.

422
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,970
I was a, I was, it's my
very first house job.

423
00:20:56,630 --> 00:20:59,840
Um, and just, I remember somebody
snoring heavily on the ward.

424
00:21:00,020 --> 00:21:03,110
I was working during the night and
then on the ward round in the morning,

425
00:21:03,110 --> 00:21:04,790
he just told me how badly he'd slept.

426
00:21:04,790 --> 00:21:05,810
And I thought, no, you didn't.

427
00:21:07,310 --> 00:21:10,310
And, and  yeah, we don't
remember how well we sleep.

428
00:21:10,790 --> 00:21:15,590
And that's, that's one thing, but
also a lot of sleep is light sleep.

429
00:21:15,830 --> 00:21:21,440
And so if we, if we're anxious about
not sleeping, we can be remembering

430
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,784
when we were in light sleep thinking
we were not sleeping and, and

431
00:21:24,784 --> 00:21:26,404
then counting that as poor sleep.

432
00:21:26,529 --> 00:21:29,019
So that's one of the bene there,
there's pros and cons of where

433
00:21:29,019 --> 00:21:31,359
of, of, of, um, sleep trackers.

434
00:21:31,409 --> 00:21:32,879
So I've mentioned paradoxical insomnia.

435
00:21:32,879 --> 00:21:38,819
The, the value of a sleep tracker can be,
and I, and I've really benefited from this

436
00:21:38,819 --> 00:21:43,816
myself in the past, is whether it's on a
phone or a watch, one of the benefits is,

437
00:21:43,816 --> 00:21:45,586
looking back and thinking, oh my goodness.

438
00:21:45,765 --> 00:21:47,775
the night wasn't half as
bad as I thought it was.

439
00:21:47,916 --> 00:21:49,176
And that happens so often.

440
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,790
So that's so, so it is good to track
your sleep, but when you start looking

441
00:21:53,790 --> 00:21:56,220
at it every, when you, well, when,
when you wake up in the morning, think,

442
00:21:56,220 --> 00:21:57,270
oh no, I didn't have enough sleep.

443
00:21:57,270 --> 00:22:00,340
I didn't have enough REM, I had too
much this, too little of that, then the

444
00:22:00,340 --> 00:22:04,240
whole obsession with sleep, which is
what a lot of people get, particularly

445
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:09,236
with sleep trackers, is, is in itself
a cause of sleep, anxiety and insomnia.

446
00:22:09,686 --> 00:22:13,957
So I've, I've heard a number of people,
uh, one person in particular in a sleep,

447
00:22:14,186 --> 00:22:18,746
sleep therapist saying, no, no to sleep
trackers, but they have their place.

448
00:22:19,046 --> 00:22:20,426
But, but use them with care.

449
00:22:20,846 --> 00:22:22,946
I mean, it's, I think the same
goes with blood pressure monitors.

450
00:22:22,946 --> 00:22:25,437
People start getting really anxious
about their blood pressures when they're

451
00:22:25,437 --> 00:22:26,457
checking their blood pressure and

452
00:22:26,778 --> 00:22:28,128
well, any sort of monitoring, right?

453
00:22:28,128 --> 00:22:30,738
It makes you more obsessed with the
figures and then you end up treating the

454
00:22:30,738 --> 00:22:34,938
figures and not, not the thing that's
going on and that, that, that makes sense.

455
00:22:34,938 --> 00:22:38,898
So not a good idea to use sleep trackers
unless you're sort of really needing

456
00:22:38,928 --> 00:22:40,818
it for a certain thing, perhaps.

457
00:22:40,818 --> 00:22:42,858
Or if you're the sort of person
that's gonna get a bit obsessed

458
00:22:42,858 --> 00:22:44,343
by it and get worried by it,

459
00:22:44,868 --> 00:22:49,338
Yeah, I, I would say I, I'd say it's,
it is often got a place, actually,

460
00:22:49,368 --> 00:22:52,458
'cause I think there's a lot of
people who can be reassured by it.

461
00:22:52,518 --> 00:22:54,228
But what you've gotta do,
you've just gotta do it.

462
00:22:54,228 --> 00:22:55,128
Use it with care.

463
00:22:55,198 --> 00:22:56,608
And it gives you good data, doesn't it?

464
00:22:56,608 --> 00:23:00,748
Because you can see how alcohol would
affect your REM sleep or things like that.

465
00:23:00,748 --> 00:23:04,378
And that, that was one of my big
disappointing discoveries is just

466
00:23:04,378 --> 00:23:06,478
the effect of alcohol in your sleep.

467
00:23:06,478 --> 00:23:09,628
And that's the one thing that's
maybe cut right down, because even

468
00:23:09,628 --> 00:23:13,348
just after one unit, two units,
your sleep is really disrupted,

469
00:23:13,348 --> 00:23:14,728
which is so depressing, isn't it

470
00:23:14,948 --> 00:23:14,949
is.

471
00:23:15,945 --> 00:23:19,725
but, um, and of course there are people
who will use the alcohol to get to

472
00:23:19,725 --> 00:23:23,835
sleep, but even people who don't have
an issue with alcohol, as you say, have

473
00:23:23,835 --> 00:23:27,133
got to be aware that they're not gonna,
they're gonna knock their rem yeah,

474
00:23:27,133 --> 00:23:28,483
as you say, even with a small amount.

475
00:23:28,663 --> 00:23:30,883
Well there's, that's another
reason for eating early.

476
00:23:30,943 --> 00:23:31,153
Okay.

477
00:23:31,363 --> 00:23:35,473
We, we, we mentioned mentioned, um, sleep
hygiene, go backtrack to sleep hygiene.

478
00:23:35,893 --> 00:23:38,143
Eating suppresses melatonin.

479
00:23:38,143 --> 00:23:41,743
So if we're eating a big meal late in
the evening and having a drink with

480
00:23:41,743 --> 00:23:45,804
it, then let's not expect to have
the best night's sleep, let alone

481
00:23:45,804 --> 00:23:47,244
the dyspepsia we might be having.

482
00:23:47,408 --> 00:23:49,598
it did make me laugh when I read,
um, Matthew Walker's book about

483
00:23:49,628 --> 00:23:53,078
why we sleep, the, the one piece
of advice they gave about alcohol.

484
00:23:53,078 --> 00:23:56,618
They said, well, you know, we can't
in any good conscience say that it's

485
00:23:56,618 --> 00:24:00,278
okay to drink alcohol for sleep,
but we can say that if you get drink

486
00:24:00,278 --> 00:24:02,738
alcohol, drink it at nine o'clock
in the morning because it'll be out

487
00:24:02,738 --> 00:24:04,658
your system by the night, I'm, yeah,

488
00:24:04,708 --> 00:24:08,261
So, okay, so we've got these
different types of, insomnia.

489
00:24:08,291 --> 00:24:11,861
We've talked a little bit
about, about sleep hygiene.

490
00:24:12,521 --> 00:24:16,936
One of the reasons I think people get
difficulty sleeping or that the reason

491
00:24:16,936 --> 00:24:20,566
I find difficult sleeping is when you're
suddenly waking up worrying about stuff.

492
00:24:20,826 --> 00:24:23,526
and that does interfere
with my sleep sometimes.

493
00:24:23,761 --> 00:24:25,891
But now you've mentioned
the sleep anxiety.

494
00:24:25,891 --> 00:24:26,926
I'm wondering whether it all sort of.

495
00:24:27,616 --> 00:24:29,566
Interacts and in and intermingles.

496
00:24:29,566 --> 00:24:33,886
So what do you think actual
anxiety is a more common sleep

497
00:24:33,886 --> 00:24:35,866
blocker than sleep anxiety?

498
00:24:35,866 --> 00:24:39,256
Or do you think sleep anxiety has a,
has an even bigger role than we thought?

499
00:24:39,795 --> 00:24:41,385
Well, they're all interrelated.

500
00:24:41,455 --> 00:24:46,768
One thing I would say is that, you know,
recovery from sleep, and I use that word

501
00:24:46,768 --> 00:24:50,278
recovery 'cause I, I liken it almost
to drug and alcohol recovery is, it's

502
00:24:50,278 --> 00:24:53,428
a journey and it's not a quick fix.

503
00:24:53,938 --> 00:24:58,498
Um, I've heard you talking, I heard
you talking once about the fact that

504
00:24:58,498 --> 00:25:04,378
you are a, you help people manage
stress, but you, there was a time when

505
00:25:04,378 --> 00:25:07,558
you were talking about how you were
drifting into, into stress yourself,

506
00:25:07,558 --> 00:25:13,438
and, and we can know all the answers,
uh, but I, it, it happens to us all.

507
00:25:13,688 --> 00:25:18,218
And I, for the me routine is a really
big deal when I've lost my routine and

508
00:25:18,218 --> 00:25:21,908
then life is frantic, i've got lots of
things on my mind, they may not, they may

509
00:25:21,908 --> 00:25:24,038
not necessarily be bad things, actually.

510
00:25:24,038 --> 00:25:25,358
They may just be busy things.

511
00:25:25,868 --> 00:25:27,428
A lot of things I'm
thinking about planning.

512
00:25:27,701 --> 00:25:30,131
when my, when my head is, when
I'm frantic, I'd say it's being

513
00:25:30,131 --> 00:25:32,771
frantic is, is a massive issue.

514
00:25:33,251 --> 00:25:35,591
Whether or not it's things
you're actually anxious about.

515
00:25:35,861 --> 00:25:37,751
But yes, it's, it's a
big, it's an interplay.

516
00:25:37,751 --> 00:25:41,531
So you could be anxious about, you can be
anxious about whatever it is, your health,

517
00:25:41,531 --> 00:25:46,241
your, your, your, your relationships,
finances, whatever it may be.

518
00:25:46,691 --> 00:25:49,691
And so of course that
that's gonna be a big deal.

519
00:25:49,691 --> 00:25:52,631
So, so that's why I like to say the
fight for the night is sports in the

520
00:25:52,631 --> 00:25:58,364
day, let's, let's, let's make time in
the day to manage our anxieties so that

521
00:25:58,364 --> 00:26:02,415
when we wake up in the night, we can
think, yeah, I've, I've parked that one.

522
00:26:02,415 --> 00:26:07,641
And, I'll tell you one massive game
changer for me and this, this isn't,

523
00:26:07,641 --> 00:26:11,511
I haven't, I, I, I came across it and
I hadn't a while back, and I've not

524
00:26:11,511 --> 00:26:15,612
heard anybody else say, this is during
the night when you are asleep, your

525
00:26:15,672 --> 00:26:18,462
prefrontal cortex activity is suppressed.

526
00:26:18,981 --> 00:26:22,029
And I thought, wow, isn't
that, that's such a big deal.

527
00:26:22,569 --> 00:26:27,009
'Cause, 'cause again, you've, you talk
about chimp brain and human brain.

528
00:26:27,489 --> 00:26:33,639
Well, our human brain goes to
sleep before our chimp brain does.

529
00:26:33,869 --> 00:26:36,209
And, do I, do we, do we need
to talk about what that means?

530
00:26:36,209 --> 00:26:38,894
I think probably a lot of people know
that, but you know, our, our, our,

531
00:26:39,329 --> 00:26:43,679
our limbic system, our amygdalas are,
are, are, are much busier than our,

532
00:26:43,889 --> 00:26:45,719
our thinking brains during the night.

533
00:26:45,864 --> 00:26:48,686
So that's just say, that's
our threat detection system.

534
00:26:48,686 --> 00:26:51,746
So the thing that's gonna, uh, make
you feel anxious and worried and

535
00:26:51,746 --> 00:26:53,096
detect threats all over the place.

536
00:26:53,096 --> 00:26:55,226
So they, that, that's what you're
talking about when talking about

537
00:26:55,226 --> 00:26:58,076
the chimp brain, the, the amygdala
versus the prefrontal cortex, which

538
00:26:58,076 --> 00:26:59,666
is the rational side of things.

539
00:26:59,666 --> 00:27:03,986
So, so, and, and again, you know, when,
when you, when you're lying awake and you

540
00:27:03,986 --> 00:27:07,277
can rationalize, when you can, when you,
when you've got enough, consciousness to

541
00:27:07,277 --> 00:27:12,280
think, right, I'm anxious, I'm thinking
about this stuff, but it's, I, I can

542
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,190
actually, I can actually, I, I've done
this now and it really helps, is I, I

543
00:27:15,190 --> 00:27:18,362
think, right, I don't, I don't, I can't,
I'm not in a good place to think about

544
00:27:18,362 --> 00:27:20,972
what might, what, whatever it might
be, this, this meeting that's coming

545
00:27:20,972 --> 00:27:24,932
up because I'm not using my prefrontal
cortex, and I've been able to do that in

546
00:27:24,932 --> 00:27:28,982
light sleep and, and, and think, right,
I'm gonna park it, leave it for tomorrow.

547
00:27:29,372 --> 00:27:30,482
Takes a lot of practice.

548
00:27:30,572 --> 00:27:33,692
That's where learning to be
mindful comes in, I believe.

549
00:27:33,873 --> 00:27:38,643
But, but, but a big, a massive
interplay between anxiety, sleep

550
00:27:38,643 --> 00:27:42,033
anxiety, and again, it's, it goes
back to what I was saying earlier.

551
00:27:42,333 --> 00:27:44,133
There's a, it's a two-way street.

552
00:27:44,133 --> 00:27:48,273
Men, good mental health, poor mental
health, and insomnia are a two-way street.

553
00:27:48,273 --> 00:27:50,043
One causes the other both directions.

554
00:27:50,253 --> 00:27:52,743
So I mentioned it in relation to
depression earlier on, but of course,

555
00:27:52,743 --> 00:27:54,573
exactly the same applies to anxiety.

556
00:27:54,912 --> 00:27:59,504
I was in India and I saw this man
with a t-shirt It, it just said in

557
00:27:59,504 --> 00:28:04,516
the daytime, I don't believe in ghosts
at nighttime, I'm more open-minded.

558
00:28:04,810 --> 00:28:07,720
I thought, yes, that's, that's,
that, that's exactly it.

559
00:28:07,810 --> 00:28:08,410
Um,

560
00:28:08,707 --> 00:28:12,277
Or we start just completely
catastrophizing and worrying

561
00:28:12,277 --> 00:28:16,057
about stuff that, and I think
sometimes your brain just even

562
00:28:16,057 --> 00:28:17,797
looks around things to worry about.

563
00:28:17,977 --> 00:28:19,657
Um, which is quite uncanny, isn't it?

564
00:28:19,657 --> 00:28:22,037
That's why useful to keep like
a piece of paper by your bed.

565
00:28:22,037 --> 00:28:25,247
So I was thinking, well, I'm just
gonna write it down and I'll make

566
00:28:25,247 --> 00:28:26,657
sure I worry about that tomorrow.

567
00:28:26,657 --> 00:28:30,058
So don't worry in a chimp or
amygdala, I'll worry about that

568
00:28:30,088 --> 00:28:32,668
tomorrow and then tomorrow I'm like,
oh, that's, that's not important.

569
00:28:32,668 --> 00:28:36,748
But I think that's, that's useful
because we worry then we worry about

570
00:28:36,748 --> 00:28:39,868
the worry and then we worry about not
sleeping and then we get ourselves

571
00:28:40,078 --> 00:28:41,738
mixed up in the right old muddle.

572
00:28:41,758 --> 00:28:44,668
And I guess that's, that's part
of the problem with sleep anxiety.

573
00:28:44,668 --> 00:28:47,548
So we worry about not sleeping and then we
worry about worrying about not sleeping.

574
00:28:47,548 --> 00:28:50,249
Before you know it, you've got a
million worries all over the fact

575
00:28:50,249 --> 00:28:53,300
that, yeah, you might not have enough
sleep for tomorrow or you might miss

576
00:28:53,300 --> 00:28:54,800
your alarm or, or something like that.

577
00:28:54,810 --> 00:28:58,710
What can we do if, like, if, like me,
you've gotta suddenly get up really early

578
00:28:58,710 --> 00:29:01,860
because you've got keynote talk or you're
gonna miss a plane, or you know, so you've

579
00:29:01,860 --> 00:29:06,193
got less than normal, you've got a early
deadline and you lie awake all night.

580
00:29:06,522 --> 00:29:09,972
Or the second one, I guess is for
somebody that has had a lot of trouble

581
00:29:09,972 --> 00:29:12,672
sleeping in their lives, and then it
just becomes a chronic, oh gosh, am I

582
00:29:12,672 --> 00:29:14,382
going to, am I gonna get sleep tonight?

583
00:29:14,382 --> 00:29:15,192
How am I sleeping?

584
00:29:15,192 --> 00:29:15,942
All that sort of stuff.

585
00:29:15,942 --> 00:29:18,642
So do you manage those in two
completely different ways?

586
00:29:18,642 --> 00:29:20,742
Or is it the same sort
of thing either way?

587
00:29:20,889 --> 00:29:21,159
Yeah.

588
00:29:21,159 --> 00:29:25,731
I, I think you, you, you, you manage
things together and I think you've,

589
00:29:25,791 --> 00:29:30,272
we've gotta talk about people who have
chronic insomnia versus people whom

590
00:29:30,272 --> 00:29:31,652
it's just an intermittent problem.

591
00:29:32,192 --> 00:29:35,642
One thing that's really helpful
to recognize is that actually it's

592
00:29:35,642 --> 00:29:38,729
not the end of the day, if you
really sleep particularly well.

593
00:29:38,729 --> 00:29:39,869
You know, we can function.

594
00:29:40,139 --> 00:29:43,439
I mean, I remember one of my worst
nights, actually, this is before I

595
00:29:43,439 --> 00:29:46,452
was working as a junior doctor, so
maybe, this was a medical student.

596
00:29:46,452 --> 00:29:48,822
I remember the day before
my pediatrics exam.

597
00:29:48,822 --> 00:29:52,922
And I, I just had this sudden
thought at 8:00 PM that I, I, I

598
00:29:52,922 --> 00:29:54,662
dunno anything about pediatrics.

599
00:29:54,692 --> 00:29:56,852
And I literally stayed awake all night.

600
00:29:56,942 --> 00:30:00,359
Re I was up, I was up
reading pediatrics textbook.

601
00:30:00,809 --> 00:30:01,469
Stupid.

602
00:30:01,559 --> 00:30:04,679
I mean, it just, you know, but I, I
thought I've got to go through it and,

603
00:30:04,679 --> 00:30:11,039
um, and, um, but yeah, the exam went
fine and it, the point being that we,

604
00:30:11,039 --> 00:30:15,569
we c if it is an occasional bad meeting,
occasional meeting, and we're thinking,

605
00:30:15,929 --> 00:30:18,929
um, oh, I've gotta go to sleep well for,
for that meeting tomorrow, we can also

606
00:30:18,929 --> 00:30:22,139
tell ourselves, well, even if I don't,
it's not gonna be the end of the world.

607
00:30:22,469 --> 00:30:26,699
But that, so that, that's for,
for, for, for the occasional.

608
00:30:27,074 --> 00:30:28,574
Um, bout of insomnia.

609
00:30:29,174 --> 00:30:32,264
For the, for the chronic in
insomniac, it's, it's, it's different.

610
00:30:32,324 --> 00:30:36,314
We, we need to be more, you know, we
need to be more purposeful in managing

611
00:30:36,314 --> 00:30:38,444
that on a, on a daily basis, I'd say.

612
00:30:38,885 --> 00:30:41,162
So what sort of techniques would
you be recommending to people

613
00:30:41,162 --> 00:30:42,750
for, for that sort of thing?

614
00:30:43,316 --> 00:30:46,971
I, I, I have a, a, a four step approach.

615
00:30:46,971 --> 00:30:49,821
I, we, we've talked a bit about
the sleep science and I, I think

616
00:30:49,821 --> 00:30:51,201
understanding sleep science is important.

617
00:30:51,201 --> 00:30:53,241
We've talked about sleep hygiene
and that and that, and I would,

618
00:30:53,391 --> 00:30:54,501
that's another key thing.

619
00:30:54,501 --> 00:30:58,060
And then rhythm and then, and then
what, what we massively need to

620
00:30:58,060 --> 00:31:01,780
do, having done the other things,
arguably, arguably first, is to work

621
00:31:01,780 --> 00:31:04,510
on what I call having a sleep mindset.

622
00:31:04,799 --> 00:31:10,709
What I think is massive,
absolute game changer.

623
00:31:11,035 --> 00:31:14,652
Is something called a,
it's a more modern therapy.

624
00:31:14,652 --> 00:31:17,172
It's called Accept Acceptance
and commitment therapy.

625
00:31:17,802 --> 00:31:22,082
And when we spoke, I think, I think it
was May last year, so it was coming up

626
00:31:22,082 --> 00:31:27,092
to a year ago, we talked a bit about
accepting the things that we can't

627
00:31:27,092 --> 00:31:32,645
control, having the courage to change
the things that we can, and that's such

628
00:31:32,975 --> 00:31:38,435
a massive, massive part of my journey,
and, and, and those that I have, I've

629
00:31:38,435 --> 00:31:43,355
helped to, to come to, to, um, a better
place with in terms of life in general.

630
00:31:43,685 --> 00:31:46,925
But, um, in terms of bed
sleeping better in particular.

631
00:31:47,375 --> 00:31:53,645
Learning to relax about the things that,
that I don't have any control over.

632
00:31:53,825 --> 00:31:57,395
I don't have, nor do you, nor does anybody
listening to this, generally speaking,

633
00:31:57,395 --> 00:32:01,265
we do not have the ability to say,
right, I'm gonna lie down now and go to

634
00:32:01,265 --> 00:32:02,750
sleep unless you're totally exhausted.

635
00:32:03,077 --> 00:32:07,067
You can't choose to go to sleep at, I'm
gonna go to sleep at 10:30 PM tonight.

636
00:32:07,493 --> 00:32:09,233
It's not within my skillset.

637
00:32:09,274 --> 00:32:14,382
And so if I learn to accept that and
don't fight against that desire to

638
00:32:14,382 --> 00:32:17,142
go to sleep, I've gotta, I've gotta
fall asleep, I've gotta fall asleep.

639
00:32:17,142 --> 00:32:17,832
I've don't fall asleep.

640
00:32:18,072 --> 00:32:21,942
I'm gonna be so tired if I learn to
accept that, I can't control that, but

641
00:32:21,942 --> 00:32:28,376
what I can do is I can control the things
that are within my skillset are what

642
00:32:28,376 --> 00:32:31,916
we talked about in terms of, our sleep
environment and how much caffeine we

643
00:32:31,916 --> 00:32:35,735
drink and so on, and my, and then I can
control what I choose to think about,

644
00:32:36,095 --> 00:32:41,697
and I can control how much rest I take
then, then sleep probably will follow

645
00:32:41,829 --> 00:32:44,559
And so is there any other
way that ACT therapy helps?

646
00:32:44,559 --> 00:32:48,009
Because I think I, I love ACT therapy
and when, when I've sort of heard

647
00:32:48,009 --> 00:32:51,189
about it before, I think I've read a
couple of books about it, one of the

648
00:32:51,189 --> 00:32:55,749
things that has been really powerful
for me is being able to choose

649
00:32:56,109 --> 00:32:57,549
the thoughts that you latch onto.

650
00:32:58,089 --> 00:33:02,379
So sort of accepting the thoughts
that's there and either just, and, and

651
00:33:02,379 --> 00:33:06,009
trying to detach yourself from, oh, I,
I'm noticing I'm having the thought,

652
00:33:06,009 --> 00:33:09,789
or I am thinking rather than, or I am
stressed, or I'm thinking I'm stressed.

653
00:33:09,789 --> 00:33:11,379
I'm noticing I'm having
the thought, I'm stressed.

654
00:33:11,379 --> 00:33:13,809
Therefore, that you're sort of
distancing yourself each time.

655
00:33:14,026 --> 00:33:14,701
absolutely.

656
00:33:14,806 --> 00:33:19,276
What particular distancing things
have you found have helped you

657
00:33:19,276 --> 00:33:20,266
when it comes to the sleep?

658
00:33:20,266 --> 00:33:21,376
An anxiety.

659
00:33:21,376 --> 00:33:23,806
What's the sort of changing
in the thinking that's helped?

660
00:33:23,978 --> 00:33:26,498
there are a couple of things, and
the first thing you've just, first

661
00:33:26,498 --> 00:33:28,358
thing you've mentioned is, is massive.

662
00:33:28,823 --> 00:33:33,345
Is, is, is, you know, as soon as we
say to ourselves, oh, I'm having a, an

663
00:33:33,345 --> 00:33:38,055
anxious thought, ooh, I can feel my heart
beating, I can feel the tension in my

664
00:33:38,175 --> 00:33:42,819
neck, or whatever it is, as soon as we
describe our, describe what's going on,

665
00:33:42,819 --> 00:33:45,399
we have distanced ourself to some degree.

666
00:33:46,044 --> 00:33:52,194
So, and, and, um, the phrase
that I love is, um, not being at

667
00:33:52,194 --> 00:33:54,144
the mercy of, of that thought.

668
00:33:54,676 --> 00:33:58,756
So, so choosing, choosing to notice
it rather than be at the mercy of it.

669
00:33:59,446 --> 00:34:03,016
Um, so that's one part of, of,
that's a big part of acceptance

670
00:34:03,016 --> 00:34:03,916
and commitment therapy.

671
00:34:04,276 --> 00:34:07,096
For those that are not familiar with
it, it's, it's, it's, it's a therapy

672
00:34:07,096 --> 00:34:12,466
that came, was devised by somebody
called Steven Hayes in the 1980s.

673
00:34:12,466 --> 00:34:15,796
So it's really relatively, um, recent.

674
00:34:15,826 --> 00:34:21,016
I mean, I feel it's based on ancient
wisdom, but big part of it is just

675
00:34:21,076 --> 00:34:24,826
learning to, to be mindful, be observant.

676
00:34:25,426 --> 00:34:30,196
And the other thing is, is what, what
Stephen Hayes is and, and his and his

677
00:34:30,196 --> 00:34:36,486
successors have really helped us to do
is to, is to recognize that the things

678
00:34:36,486 --> 00:34:40,066
that we worry about don't actually
have the power that we think they do.

679
00:34:40,424 --> 00:34:46,484
So what ACT therapists do is they
encourage, encourage us to see

680
00:34:46,484 --> 00:34:51,410
our anxieties as monsters, sleep
monsters, whatever it is, you know?

681
00:34:51,470 --> 00:34:54,435
And, and, and that, that has,
that has been really helpful.

682
00:34:54,885 --> 00:34:58,069
So see it as a monster that,
that can't actually hurt you.

683
00:34:58,489 --> 00:35:00,529
It's like, it's like a dog that's barking.

684
00:35:00,529 --> 00:35:04,279
It's really a really scary bark dog,
but it's on a lead, it's chained.

685
00:35:04,549 --> 00:35:07,355
And so it can, it can bark really
loudly, but it can't actually,

686
00:35:07,390 --> 00:35:08,855
you, you know, it can't bite you.

687
00:35:08,855 --> 00:35:13,746
And if you start thinking, yeah, that dog
or that monster, um, it's, that's, it's

688
00:35:13,746 --> 00:35:15,756
keeping me awake, but it can't hurt me.

689
00:35:16,046 --> 00:35:20,366
And if I, if I, if I focus on it, if
I bark back at the dog or the monster,

690
00:35:20,426 --> 00:35:24,806
it'll bark back even louder and it'll, and
it'll, and then I'm on a downward spiral.

691
00:35:25,166 --> 00:35:30,026
And some people will say, recognize
that okay, I'll thank my amygdala

692
00:35:30,476 --> 00:35:31,321
'cause it's trying to help me.

693
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,610
You know, we, our amygdalas
are lifesavers, aren't they

694
00:35:34,610 --> 00:35:35,930
in the right circumstances?

695
00:35:35,990 --> 00:35:39,800
And you're crossing a field and a bull's
chasing you, thank, thank God for a,

696
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,670
for the amygdala, which gives you then
releases the adrenaline, which causes

697
00:35:43,670 --> 00:35:46,760
the adrenaline to come up, which means
you escape from the t from the bull.

698
00:35:47,060 --> 00:35:50,300
But we don't want, we don't, we
don't want its help at nighttime.

699
00:35:50,660 --> 00:35:54,590
And so we can thank the amygdala
if we want to, um, and, and then

700
00:35:54,590 --> 00:35:58,580
just sort of diffuse the, the
power of that sleep monster.

701
00:35:58,730 --> 00:36:01,850
So I think, I think, um, the,
it, it's a, it's a silly picture,

702
00:36:01,850 --> 00:36:03,140
but I, I don't mean it silly.

703
00:36:03,140 --> 00:36:06,920
It's, you know, it, it sounds,
sounds a bit inane, but it actually

704
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,370
works to to see your anxiety as a
monster that can't actually hurt you.

705
00:36:10,554 --> 00:36:14,184
And the fact that if you engage
with that dog, the anxiety or the

706
00:36:14,184 --> 00:36:16,884
monster, that actually just, it just
gets louder and louder and louder.

707
00:36:17,184 --> 00:36:18,504
You've just gotta ignore it.

708
00:36:19,074 --> 00:36:22,104
It's fascinating this,
this sleep mindset stuff.

709
00:36:22,134 --> 00:36:26,604
If there have been any sort of quick
hacks that have really helped you, any

710
00:36:26,604 --> 00:36:32,034
sort of mantras or quick shifts that have
helped you with the, that sleep mindset

711
00:36:32,034 --> 00:36:34,044
and to get rid of your sleep anxiety?

712
00:36:34,632 --> 00:36:38,832
I, I mean there are some quick fixes and
one is to believe that you can do it.

713
00:36:39,402 --> 00:36:42,822
I mean, what I say to people,
I say any to anybody who.

714
00:36:43,065 --> 00:36:43,995
has insomnia.

715
00:36:44,325 --> 00:36:48,375
I'll say there probably was a
day when you slept like a baby.

716
00:36:49,005 --> 00:36:52,785
Nobody had to teach you how to sleep
when you were a baby so you can sleep.

717
00:36:52,785 --> 00:36:55,515
So, so many people, I've heard so
many people tell me, I can't sleep.

718
00:36:55,515 --> 00:36:57,555
I'm deficient in something.

719
00:36:57,555 --> 00:36:59,625
I don't, my brain doesn't
produce melatonin.

720
00:36:59,625 --> 00:37:00,825
I'm, whatever it may be.

721
00:37:01,185 --> 00:37:03,825
I think they've got a lot of
people truly believe they've got a

722
00:37:03,825 --> 00:37:05,745
physical cause for their insomnia.

723
00:37:06,135 --> 00:37:09,285
And you say, no, you know, you,
you've got what you need and

724
00:37:09,285 --> 00:37:10,485
you once slept like a baby.

725
00:37:10,485 --> 00:37:15,705
And to, to learn to believe that you can
sleep like a baby again, that's maybe

726
00:37:15,705 --> 00:37:17,505
sometimes we can have breakthroughs.

727
00:37:17,505 --> 00:37:20,895
Absolutely we can have breakthroughs and
we learn how to manage certain issues.

728
00:37:21,375 --> 00:37:25,785
But I thi I think what my, what I would
encourage people who've got chronic

729
00:37:25,785 --> 00:37:28,515
insomnia and when we say chronic
insomnia, we mean insomnia that's

730
00:37:28,515 --> 00:37:32,475
persisted for more than three days
a week for more than three months.

731
00:37:33,045 --> 00:37:34,935
Um, I'd say well see it as a journey.

732
00:37:35,299 --> 00:37:39,264
And um, another little metaphor is,
which I think is really helpful.

733
00:37:39,879 --> 00:37:44,979
is somebody paddling on a boat in a,
on a, on a river where everything's

734
00:37:44,979 --> 00:37:47,889
lovely and the gr trees are green
and the sky is blue, the bird

735
00:37:47,889 --> 00:37:49,419
singing, it's all very ni nice.

736
00:37:49,419 --> 00:37:53,524
You're in this paddle boat and
behind you is a waterfall, and if

737
00:37:53,524 --> 00:37:57,454
you stop paddling, you'll be slowly
dragged back into the waterfall.

738
00:37:57,754 --> 00:38:04,204
So for me and for people that
I've, um, helped, I encourage

739
00:38:04,444 --> 00:38:05,914
just to see it as a journey.

740
00:38:06,154 --> 00:38:10,444
You're gonna keep paddling and it's very
similar to people maybe who've had, who

741
00:38:10,444 --> 00:38:15,917
have got tendency towards an addictive
behavior or or substance, whatever.

742
00:38:16,247 --> 00:38:19,217
It's, it's not there, there
aren't many quick fixes.

743
00:38:19,532 --> 00:38:22,802
So how many people do actually
have a medical condition

744
00:38:22,802 --> 00:38:23,942
that means they can't sleep?

745
00:38:23,942 --> 00:38:27,812
You know, what percentage of, of everyone
with insomnia will find out that there is

746
00:38:27,812 --> 00:38:30,812
a sort of physical medical reason for it?

747
00:38:30,812 --> 00:38:33,362
Is it just tiny, tiny tiny percentage?

748
00:38:33,412 --> 00:38:38,332
Yeah, it's, it's, it's relatively small
there, but there are a bunch of, um,

749
00:38:38,392 --> 00:38:43,912
sleep disorders and, and there will
probably be people listening to this who

750
00:38:43,912 --> 00:38:46,102
have got, who've got physical issues.

751
00:38:46,102 --> 00:38:47,662
Now there's obstructive sleep apnea.

752
00:38:48,144 --> 00:38:51,204
and that's a physical issue, which
is, which is really, it's really

753
00:38:51,204 --> 00:38:55,364
significant and it is often, it's
badly, it's often not diagnosed.

754
00:38:55,805 --> 00:39:01,720
Is it 2% of women, 4% of males and, and,
and increased with people with obesity.

755
00:39:02,170 --> 00:39:05,170
So there's not an insignificant
number of people have.

756
00:39:05,170 --> 00:39:07,900
And, and there, there is a physical
cause there's, there's intermittent,

757
00:39:08,350 --> 00:39:13,878
um, sort of partial collapsing of, of
the airways, which causes intermittent

758
00:39:13,968 --> 00:39:17,449
choking and snoring, having snoring,
which then wakes the person up.

759
00:39:17,569 --> 00:39:20,089
Sometimes they don't really
realize that they've woken up

760
00:39:20,089 --> 00:39:21,439
and then they fall asleep again.

761
00:39:21,439 --> 00:39:24,829
But they've had significant impairment
of, of the normal sleep rhythm.

762
00:39:25,202 --> 00:39:28,712
Um, there's restless leg syndrome,
whether that's truly a physical issue,

763
00:39:28,862 --> 00:39:30,452
you know, the sleep movement disorders.

764
00:39:30,785 --> 00:39:32,225
And that affects a lot of people.

765
00:39:32,305 --> 00:39:34,165
And that's up to 10% of people actually.

766
00:39:34,555 --> 00:39:38,125
Um, sometimes, sometimes for them there's
iron deficiency, which is a factor.

767
00:39:38,385 --> 00:39:41,535
And then, and then, yeah, there, there,
there are circadian rhythm disorders,

768
00:39:41,748 --> 00:39:46,368
whether that's, uh, a physical cause, but,
but it's, but it's a recognized issue.

769
00:39:46,368 --> 00:39:49,308
There's narcolepsy, there's,
there's, there's various other

770
00:39:49,548 --> 00:39:53,568
sleep disorders, but, but, but the
biggest problem with sleep that

771
00:39:53,568 --> 00:39:56,058
causes so much distress is insomnia.

772
00:39:56,388 --> 00:40:00,648
And the one, perhaps the most single,
most important factor is sleep anxiety.

773
00:40:01,134 --> 00:40:02,604
Um, I guess that's good news, isn't it?

774
00:40:02,604 --> 00:40:05,214
Because that means that
we can overcome it.

775
00:40:05,214 --> 00:40:06,744
That means it can get better.

776
00:40:06,744 --> 00:40:07,614
It's a journey.

777
00:40:07,614 --> 00:40:10,284
Just because you don't see it well now
doesn't mean you are never going to

778
00:40:10,284 --> 00:40:14,544
be able to, but it's gonna take, gonna
take a bit of time, gonna take a bit of

779
00:40:14,544 --> 00:40:16,224
effort, and I guess it's like everything.

780
00:40:16,597 --> 00:40:19,867
Wouldn't it be great if there was just
pill you could take and totally cure it?

781
00:40:19,867 --> 00:40:24,007
Unfortunately, with sleeping, we, the
pills often make it worse, don't they?

782
00:40:24,007 --> 00:40:26,497
Or, yeah, they cause they
cause extra problems.

783
00:40:26,497 --> 00:40:28,717
But like you said, it's a journey.

784
00:40:28,777 --> 00:40:29,917
It takes work.

785
00:40:29,947 --> 00:40:32,591
But the great news is
you're in control of it.

786
00:40:32,591 --> 00:40:35,651
If it's to do with the way we are
thinking and what's in our mind,

787
00:40:35,651 --> 00:40:37,361
then there are things we can do.

788
00:40:37,527 --> 00:40:40,167
Yeah, and actually you, you asked
about physical causes of insomnia.

789
00:40:40,167 --> 00:40:43,178
What I didn't think to say is,
yeah, there's a lot of people

790
00:40:43,178 --> 00:40:45,368
who've got secondary insomnia.

791
00:40:45,368 --> 00:40:48,158
So insomnia is, there's different
ways of categorizing it.

792
00:40:48,428 --> 00:40:50,618
And one way is primary versus secondary.

793
00:40:50,888 --> 00:40:56,348
And secondary is secondary to what may
be a physical or, or a secondary, uh,

794
00:40:56,378 --> 00:40:58,028
physical or a mental primary cause.

795
00:40:58,028 --> 00:41:02,648
So, you know, we've talked a lot about
the mental health issues that may be

796
00:41:02,648 --> 00:41:05,738
the underlying cause for insomnia, but
of course there's a lot of people who

797
00:41:05,738 --> 00:41:08,136
can't sleep 'cause of pain, genuine pain.

798
00:41:08,589 --> 00:41:12,589
And, and so the clinic I am, working in
at the moment in London is, is for people

799
00:41:12,589 --> 00:41:19,399
who are, have ended up on high doses of
prescribed opiates and benzodiazepines.

800
00:41:19,810 --> 00:41:23,800
And so they, they will attribute
their poor sleep to their backache,

801
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,040
their sciatica, their postoperative
pain, whatever it may be.

802
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:29,710
And that probably is a
factor, but actually.

803
00:41:29,909 --> 00:41:34,799
It always invariably becomes compounded
and it becomes a mixed picture.

804
00:41:34,799 --> 00:41:39,619
And, and so the anxiety aggravates
the pain and, and, and, and very

805
00:41:39,619 --> 00:41:42,889
often, even though there may be
some genuine underlying pain that's

806
00:41:42,979 --> 00:41:48,049
coming into play, if we can deal with
the, the mindset, then we can make

807
00:41:48,049 --> 00:41:49,219
things a whole lot more tolerable.

808
00:41:49,219 --> 00:41:53,764
And of course, a, a big part of pain
management is, is the mindset as well.

809
00:41:53,975 --> 00:41:56,855
I know you've sort of mentioned
mindfulness earlier on, but you know,

810
00:41:56,855 --> 00:42:00,215
that's a huge part of pain management as
well, and I can imagine it's part of sleep

811
00:42:00,215 --> 00:42:01,535
management and, and everything like that.

812
00:42:01,535 --> 00:42:07,496
So just yet another reason why meditation,
that sort of thing can be really helpful.

813
00:42:08,156 --> 00:42:10,937
Steve, there, there's so much
we could talk about with this.

814
00:42:10,997 --> 00:42:14,357
Um, and in a minute, I know you've
got a, a course that you've done.

815
00:42:14,357 --> 00:42:17,778
So anybody who wants to dig in deeper
to this will be able to, do this

816
00:42:17,778 --> 00:42:22,038
course and that find out more and,
and really hear some of your tips and

817
00:42:22,038 --> 00:42:24,228
techniques in, in much greater detail.

818
00:42:24,595 --> 00:42:27,355
Could you just share what
was your top three things?

819
00:42:27,355 --> 00:42:29,605
You know, if, if someone came
to you and they said, right,

820
00:42:29,845 --> 00:42:30,775
well, I'm, I'm struggling.

821
00:42:30,775 --> 00:42:32,455
I can't really find a cause.

822
00:42:32,455 --> 00:42:34,975
I'm not really, um, in, in any pain.

823
00:42:34,975 --> 00:42:37,705
I don't think I've got a physical thing,
but it's just, just getting worse.

824
00:42:37,705 --> 00:42:41,785
What was your, what would the basics we
would say, okay, these three things, just

825
00:42:41,785 --> 00:42:43,735
go and do, go and have a look at now?

826
00:42:44,115 --> 00:42:50,073
The number one and two is to pray
whether or not you believe anybody's

827
00:42:50,073 --> 00:42:52,773
listening, still pray the serenity prayer.

828
00:42:53,013 --> 00:42:57,153
God give me the grant, me the
serenity, and we talked about this,

829
00:42:57,213 --> 00:42:59,073
to accept the things I cannot control.

830
00:42:59,283 --> 00:42:59,883
That's number one.

831
00:42:59,883 --> 00:43:01,353
Accept the things I cannot control.

832
00:43:01,353 --> 00:43:02,733
I cannot control my insomnia.

833
00:43:03,063 --> 00:43:04,533
Accept it, don't fight it.

834
00:43:05,139 --> 00:43:10,153
Number two, courage to change the
things I can and again, that's massive.

835
00:43:10,153 --> 00:43:13,813
And, and I guess what I was gonna say
for number three really comes onto

836
00:43:13,813 --> 00:43:20,293
number two, but I'm gonna say anyway,
is, is really work on a healthy routine.

837
00:43:20,783 --> 00:43:21,623
I love this expression.

838
00:43:21,623 --> 00:43:23,543
Somebody said, put your phone to bed.

839
00:43:23,691 --> 00:43:24,561
Parent your phone.

840
00:43:24,681 --> 00:43:28,251
You know, we, we, those of us that have
had kids, we like to put our beds, our

841
00:43:28,251 --> 00:43:32,189
kids to bed at an early, an early time
so that we can then enjoy the rest of the

842
00:43:32,189 --> 00:43:33,629
evening without whilst they're asleep.

843
00:43:33,869 --> 00:43:36,909
We'll, put your bed, put your phone
to sleep, leave it in another room.

844
00:43:37,453 --> 00:43:39,553
I mean that is my number one sleep tip.

845
00:43:39,553 --> 00:43:42,913
Whenever we do any training, it's
like, yeah, 'cause uh, you check

846
00:43:42,913 --> 00:43:47,083
your phone or, and the main problem
is, is everyone uses their phone.

847
00:43:47,083 --> 00:43:48,103
It's an alarm clock.

848
00:43:48,463 --> 00:43:51,373
And this is probably part of the reason
why I can't sleep when I go away, because

849
00:43:51,373 --> 00:43:52,783
of course I don't take my alarm clock.

850
00:43:52,783 --> 00:43:53,593
So I use my phone.

851
00:43:53,593 --> 00:43:56,743
But then what you did before, the
minute you just about to go to sleep,

852
00:43:56,743 --> 00:43:59,511
you check that you've set your alarm
on your phone and while you're there,

853
00:43:59,511 --> 00:44:02,301
you check your texts, you check
your messages and you think, well,

854
00:44:02,301 --> 00:44:03,411
while I'm here just check my emails.

855
00:44:03,411 --> 00:44:04,281
And what am I doing tomorrow?

856
00:44:04,281 --> 00:44:07,101
Check your diary and before you know it,
you've done half an hour more of work.

857
00:44:07,581 --> 00:44:08,781
So forget the blue light.

858
00:44:08,781 --> 00:44:09,201
Forget anything.

859
00:44:09,231 --> 00:44:14,421
It just intrudes in, it makes work and
everything else that you get obsessed

860
00:44:14,421 --> 00:44:17,631
with and distracted by, intrude into
everything and so no wonder can't

861
00:44:17,631 --> 00:44:18,921
sleep because your brain is going.

862
00:44:18,921 --> 00:44:23,391
And even at home, when I find, when
I've maybe got my phone next to my

863
00:44:23,391 --> 00:44:25,851
bed, 'cause maybe one of my teenagers
out really late and I think, well,

864
00:44:25,851 --> 00:44:29,121
I can't put my phone down, so I need
to be able to hear it if they're in

865
00:44:29,121 --> 00:44:33,894
trouble, I find myself scrolling on
it, even when I know it is just stupid.

866
00:44:34,193 --> 00:44:35,243
It's so annoying.

867
00:44:35,273 --> 00:44:38,423
So I think number one tip, and
honestly I have bought myself an

868
00:44:38,423 --> 00:44:42,653
alarm clock, and it's a digital one
because I hate ticking, from Amazon.

869
00:44:42,653 --> 00:44:44,063
It costs like 20 quid.

870
00:44:44,063 --> 00:44:47,108
It's honestly the best buy
ever, and it's really reliable.

871
00:44:47,108 --> 00:44:50,378
It never, it never alarm, never
doesn't go off and all that.

872
00:44:50,378 --> 00:44:54,608
So it's, you know, honestly, top
tip, I think Steve, that's absolutely

873
00:44:54,749 --> 00:44:57,149
I just make add to that
actually, there, there I, I have

874
00:44:57,149 --> 00:44:58,919
what I call a Sabbath phone.

875
00:44:59,083 --> 00:45:01,783
' Cause because it's, you know,
Sabbath is not, is not, doesn't

876
00:45:01,783 --> 00:45:02,653
have to be anything religious.

877
00:45:02,653 --> 00:45:04,903
It's about just means having
a rest, have a rest once a

878
00:45:04,903 --> 00:45:06,313
week, have a digital Sabbath.

879
00:45:06,463 --> 00:45:09,883
But we, we, goodness me, you know,
I, I, I like listening to music.

880
00:45:09,883 --> 00:45:13,813
So my, I've used my, I need, I
need my phone for Spotify and then

881
00:45:13,813 --> 00:45:17,083
I, I like to do meditations and
I use the me the phone for that.

882
00:45:17,263 --> 00:45:21,753
Well have a phone that doesn't have your
email, your Facebook and everything else.

883
00:45:21,753 --> 00:45:24,649
A separate phone that you
use when you are off duty.

884
00:45:24,859 --> 00:45:25,463
Even better.

885
00:45:25,463 --> 00:45:26,573
I'm looking around my desk.

886
00:45:27,113 --> 00:45:27,953
Oh, it's over there.

887
00:45:28,013 --> 00:45:30,503
I've got a thing called a
brick, which I haven't used yet.

888
00:45:30,683 --> 00:45:31,675
Have you heard about the brick?

889
00:45:31,675 --> 00:45:33,355
Well, I've heard of
people referring to their

890
00:45:33,505 --> 00:45:34,015
No.

891
00:45:34,075 --> 00:45:36,595
This is an actual brick and,
hang on, I'm just gonna get it.

892
00:45:36,595 --> 00:45:41,032
Wait a sec.  Can I just say, I have no
financial interest in the brick company,

893
00:45:41,032 --> 00:45:42,232
but my friends told me about this.

894
00:45:42,471 --> 00:45:44,121
And it comes in a little box.

895
00:45:44,181 --> 00:45:45,411
You stick it on your fridge.

896
00:45:45,741 --> 00:45:50,301
And what the brick does, you download the
app onto your phone and the it turns your

897
00:45:50,301 --> 00:45:52,431
phone into a brick phone, into a no phone.

898
00:45:52,461 --> 00:45:56,151
Or you can choose what apps you want
it to access and what it blocks.

899
00:45:56,151 --> 00:46:00,261
But if you want to unlock it, you
literally have to go and tap your

900
00:46:00,261 --> 00:46:01,491
phone on the brick to unlock it.

901
00:46:02,031 --> 00:46:05,811
So it turns your smartphone into a
brick or, or, or whatever you want.

902
00:46:05,811 --> 00:46:08,151
So you could leave Spotify
on it, for example.

903
00:46:08,631 --> 00:46:10,131
Um, and everything that you need.

904
00:46:10,194 --> 00:46:13,629
you can, then you can choose,
you don't have to have everything

905
00:46:13,629 --> 00:46:16,149
off your phone, but I thought
that was absolute genius idea.

906
00:46:16,149 --> 00:46:17,679
So yeah, I have to set that up.

907
00:46:17,709 --> 00:46:19,565
Anyway, steve, it's been
wonderful to have you with us.

908
00:46:19,565 --> 00:46:22,175
If people wanna find more about
you and more about your sleep

909
00:46:22,175 --> 00:46:24,545
course and everything else that
you do, where can they find you?

910
00:46:24,545 --> 00:46:25,375
Where's the best place to go?

911
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:31,855
so I, I've set up a website, it's
called fightforthenight.com, and I've

912
00:46:31,855 --> 00:46:35,965
got a sleep course on there, which
is, um, expanding really all the

913
00:46:35,965 --> 00:46:37,375
things that we've been talking about.

914
00:46:37,634 --> 00:46:43,004
And, um, I'm delighted to be able to
offer, I think it's really, really

915
00:46:43,004 --> 00:46:48,048
very well priced anyway, but for
anybody who follows your podcast,

916
00:46:48,138 --> 00:46:54,838
we've got a, a code, which is FROG20,
which gives you a 20% discount.

917
00:46:55,136 --> 00:46:56,546
So do, do, check that out.

918
00:46:56,546 --> 00:46:58,016
Use that code as a discount.

919
00:46:58,016 --> 00:47:01,826
I think, you know, if you struggle with
sleep, then get on and do this course.

920
00:47:01,826 --> 00:47:06,026
It's part of their like courage to change
the things that you can get yourself.

921
00:47:06,026 --> 00:47:07,136
Get yourself educated.

922
00:47:07,136 --> 00:47:08,666
Get a book, read the Matthew Walker.

923
00:47:08,666 --> 00:47:11,756
Why we, why We sleep book
and all that sort of stuff.

924
00:47:11,926 --> 00:47:14,656
Steve, thank you so much for
being here and, uh, be good to

925
00:47:14,656 --> 00:47:15,946
chat again soon at some point.

926
00:47:15,946 --> 00:47:16,546
Thank you.

927
00:47:16,546 --> 00:47:17,116
My pleasure.

928
00:47:17,116 --> 00:47:17,986
Thank you for having me.

929
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:20,130
Thanks for listening.

930
00:47:20,230 --> 00:47:24,690
Don't forget, you can get extra bonus
episodes and audio courses along with

931
00:47:24,780 --> 00:47:29,610
unlimited access to our library of
videos and CPD workbooks by joining

932
00:47:29,690 --> 00:47:34,150
FrogXtra and FrogXtra Gold, our
memberships to help busy professionals

933
00:47:34,150 --> 00:47:37,120
like you beat burnout and work happier.

934
00:47:37,493 --> 00:47:41,013
Find out more at
youarenotafrog.com/members.