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And now...
Now the moment you've been waiting for is here.
Online Church Service starts right now.
So welcome to To crowd online church we are in the non live livestream on bomb finite.
Yes, we are.
If you're watching this, hope you're having a safe bomb finite.
If you're outside of the UK, wondering what bomb finite I is.
probably have to google that because it's a funny old thing.
Now, if you don't know, my name is Matt, I lead crowd online church.
and beside me this good -looking fellow is Tony Odin.
He is one of my best mates from London who also So past is a church called Tower Hamlet's Community Church down there and we thought it'd be fun in this week's service just to chat about some things that we see in the church just having But a we've no idea where the conversation's going to go, but it's just interesting when two blocs get together of knowing each other for a little time and see where the conversation goes.
So, Tony, welcome to Crowdman.
Great to have you.
Hey, it's great to be here.
Here again, it's been a while right?
Yeah, that's where you know, all the complaints less time we thought.
You got into it with all the problems.
Yeah, we thought we should probably take it easy for a little bit.
So it's good to have you back on, man.
It's been too too long.
long.
It definitely been too long.
Now, you and I have been, just to give some context, and I have been friends since university days, which was 19, 91 was that when we went to uni?
Was it 92?
92, 92 was 92.
And along over 31 years ago.
Well I'm older than I I lived.
don't know about you.
I just look older than I am.
Which is pretty good.
I was about to go there.
It's true that we're going to be kind, right?
Apparently Christians can't laugh, you know apparently that's one of the things up until I was talking to someone the other day on WhatsApp a young ladies He's got in touch with us over the water.
So I've had a few questions and just I'm in a lovely chat with her.
And she said to me, she said, Matt, you really should do the radio.
The O thing because your voice is quite mesmerizing and I said well funny you should say that I've got to make you always tell me I've got a great face for radio.
As you were saying now, I was going to be like, well, this is...
Well, you know, things need to be independently very much.
That's really...
Yeah, apparently, apparently so, apparently so.
So it's fair to say, Tony, that you and I have been friends for a very long time.
And we do like to to be banter.
friends.
It was, I do remember a few years ago when you used to be in quite a lot of church lead -to -type meetings and I'd find out about it and I'd text you probably quite inappropriate things to see if I can get you to smile and laugh in the mean.
The funny is thing is the word quiet but will you?
Absolutely absolutely.
So if you are just tuning in to crowd Church, show we are doing a non -life livestream.
This is where we don't have life hosts, but we are putting our livestream out.
The reason we're not having life hosts this week is because it's bon fine night.
And If we're everyone's just having in some respects who works in crowds just having a bit of an evening off with the family which is great.
So I'm recording this non -live livestream with my good friend Tony.
And so Tony let's talk about friendship man because you and I have been friends for a long time time.
you've just done a teaching series at your church on friendship you just said so I thought that big a place to start.
Yeah we we realized that I think increasingly in our culture and our day and age there's a real need.
to encourage people to build stronger and deeper friendships and I think there's a lot in our culture and society that actually works against friendship.
And you know, I had this, you know, Sometimes one of your kids, you have these light bulb moments, don't you?
You're having a conversation with someone and it's something they say really makes sense.
And I was talking to somebody who runs a student ministry and they said so it's typically with university students and they said you know years As of a go we started talking to people a lot about friendship evangelism and that's just yeah in the context of every day friendship.
ships, sharing the good news of who Jesus is and what he's done.
And that's friendship evangelism and I they say said that, you know, we always used to teach people that and people would work hard on how do you present your faith in a relevant way in relationships.
And then And they they said, said, but increasingly, we realized that was one step down the road because people didn't the 1819 year olds coming in struggle to understand what friendship is.
And they said that they realize.
is before they talked about friendship evangelism, they needed to talk some more about what friendship is.
And that kind of got me going on a journey and then as as we we talk to the staff team about what the needs are in our church.
And I think particularly because we've seen an awful lot of growth in the last lost 18 months and lots of new people and just the need to go deeper and build friendships.
So we think we had four or five five talks just looking at, you know, what does it mean to build friendships?
What does it mean to be a friend?
What are some of the examples of friendship we see?
And what are some some of of the challenges.
And I think it was really, really rewarding.
There's a great book now by a guy called Phil Knocks.
Fox has just written a book on friendship as well.
Okay.
And name escapes me at this moment, but that's because I'm heading to that kind of age.
If you Google Phil Knox and friendship, you work with the Evangelical Alliance.
Yeah, it's brilliant book around friendship and what to does it mean mean?
to build friendships.
And you know the more I looked at scripture and the more I looked at the gospels, I saw that Jesus didn't recruit really...
a team of workers but he built a team of friends and I think how church is be a lot more healthy the lives of a lot more holistic if we worked rather than just on getting stuff done but on building friendships.
And as you say, you know, you and I have been friends for something like 31 years now.
And I think just having a friendship.
that have longevity to them.
Yes, so important.
And so important friendships are really...
be disposable and we all need friends.
You know there's some frightening statistics.
You know one in three men and say they have no close friends.
No way.
One in three men and to be fair, I know There's I...
a guy I see every week is an older chap in his 70s.
Is in his mid 70s he's never really had any friends.
Yeah, his whole life is a very lonely man.
man and he's never really had any friends his whole life and you he doesn't actually know how to be a friend to mean and he doesn't know how to receive friendship friends.
because this never happened.
He got sort of ridiculed and teased when he was a kid and so he never sort of develop that friendship you know sort of when went inward to protect himself a little bit.
That's a shocking stat man, one in three.
Yeah, and there's another one that I read that said, I'm like, said some like 40 % of young adults say they often always feel lonely.
Wow.
And then you know part of the research for this series got me looking King of friendship and loneliness, this kind of term of a loneliness epidemic.
And actually there's a government loneliness.
And I saw who knew it.
I mean, because he's working on his own or something.
But there is a government loathing And the...
they realized this is having a huge societal impact.
And the need need for to be with someone, to be with others to connect, to share heart, it's an intrinsic part of being human.
You know, I think COVID almost who's taught us that isolation is a good thing.
I see more and more generation of young people, particularly 16, 17, 18, that have almost has been mentored into social contact being a threat.
And then you...
combine that with the anonymity of online life digital stuff and it's quite a toxic cocktail.
As a culture we're going to increase the I think you know even in terms of societal danger and and stuff.
The radicalization of often young vulnerable men who feel isolated, feel that their lives don't matter.
And you can see that, and again, just another frightening thing, I I feel, read something even this week about how AI is being used for some pretty bad purposes.
And it talked about somebody who was a case recently, somebody convinced suicide after basically in that AI chatbot goaded them into it.
Yeah.
Now, obviously, someone's had to design that thing, but it's, I think it's symptomatic, isn't it?
And I look at Jesus.
Pastor of course I'm gonna look at Jesus.
What you should do yeah yeah.
You look just before he's arrested the last thing he wants wants to to do.
do is he goes to the upper room with his disciples and he shares a meal with them.
Yeah.
And I think there's something in that.
Sometimes we can, I think, all a lot of wrong ideas about Jesus come from either underestimating his humanity.
or is divinity and one of the power books that Jesus has fully gotten.
Including Matt.
Yeah, yeah.
But the idea of Jesus and his humanity.
See, like, imagine if you or I knew that tomorrow we would be arrested and brutally executed.
What would we want to do?
How would you want to spend that time?
And I guess right now at church we've got a number of people really quite serious illnesses.
And one of interesting the interesting things about this is that we have a lot of people who are things about talking to them is they it says it's really focused how they spend time yeah because with your time might might be be limited.
Certainly there's a new priority and I believe Jesus' priority is simply to be with these his friends and together to pray and be with God the Father.
And I think if Jesus and I believe he was Because it's the best example of what it is to be truly and fully human.
Then we need to to...
understand that if we don't even have that desire to be with others often and regularly and share heart with them, then there's something wrong.
Yeah, and so Jesus just takes this time with there's us.
disciples and he shares his heart, there's this incredible sense where you see Jesus just pouring out his heart.
He's talking to them about the future, he's talking to them about the Father, he's talking to them about their need to love one another.
And he says, you know, I don't call you to so.
servants I call you friends.
Yeah.
So yeah, I think it's I think it's modeled in Jesus, but I think we have to really look at what are or some of the things that hold us back from developing strong friendships.
So what would you, It's I a fascinating point here but because I totally agree with what you're saying in terms of having being one of the things that I've said to a lot, I've worked with a lot of wealthy people over the years.
A lot of very wealthy people and one of the things I always Please, kept coming back to was they all felt, most of them felt quite lonely people.
The welfare isolated them in a lot of ways.
And as a nation, We are whether you would agree or not, I suppose, depending on your personal circumstances.
We're quite a wealthy nation in the UK, right?
Even those is that that would appear below the poverty line.
I'm still relatively speaking quite a wealthy people set.
Especially when you compare with it with the the rest of the world, right?
And it seems that wealthier we become, the more isolated we become as nations.
And so, You take the states again, you've got a very wealthy nation become quite isolated become quite lonely you take Probably the the big one for me would be Japan, you know, you've got Japanese men and in that nation who will only talk to robots or to AI they don't actually know what you know personal human interaction is all about.
And so.
So I can see that we are becoming more isolated.
I don't couple that with we're...
the statue said about one in three men and how young men are the most likely people group to commit suicide.
So you have things like campaign against living miserably or calm, which are all geared towards male suicide prevention.
And so loneliness has become been an epidemic and we see Jesus model in friendship and even Jesus and his need for friendship.
So we I think people will see here and they'll listen to go, okay, how do I develop friends?
And I guess that's probably, practically, what do you think we can do about it?
Well, again, I think part of the trouble problem is most Most of of us don't see good friendships lived out, and particularly as men, we often see kind of this idea that somebody as an island or the kind of strong silent type who keeps himself to himself or the owner.
So I think we need to see it modeled more.
Yeah.
I think as men we need to be purple.
purposeful about including others.
We need to be purposeful about making our need for relationship known.
Because here's the thing my friendships and human relationships relationships are essentially reciprocal.
And so what typically happens is we meet someone and the level of intimacy.
to see is basically determined by someone's willingness to open up.
So what happens is There's two people meet, they start a friendship and it might be over something basic like football or whatever, but they start a friendship off and there's There's a something that clicks, but then without the willingness of one of them to go deeper, nothing changes.
So I I think think it's an intentional decision to open myself up and to be vulnerable knowing that that it's in my vulnerability that that can be reciprocated.
Yeah.
And it's choosing to let somebody else in.
Yeah.
And I think that's that's a big thing.
It it it means being the initiator.
And you know, when you start doing that, it's incredible how much other people actually are looking for for this stuff.
They want to respond.
And just how much that improves our wellbeing.
I mean, It's even like, you know, part of my world is often working with people with addictions and, you know, even the idea of a 12 -step group and the idea that somebody goes to a group and simply hearing someone else be vulnerable.
Even if they don't take part much themselves, help someone to maintain their subordinate.
Because humans are are made for intimacy when we don't have intimacy that's when addictive and compulsive behavior really finds a way out of And our so even this idea of just unneed for intimacy and seeing somebody else open up on the world being being that has on us.
Yeah.
Is it incredible?
Super powerful.
So I think that that thing about, you know, how do we...
How do we initiate intimacy?
How do we be the people that open ourselves up first?
And I think also it's a part of That that is, is realizing that one of the things that holds people back from that is most of us just don't feel adequate.
Okay.
If you go beneath the veneer, we feel inadequate and we feel like we're going to get exposed as a fraud.
And you write Back back.
to Adam and Eve, right?
You know, I was ashamed because I was naked and so I hid.
So in other words, There's I our fractured relationships with God, fractures our relationships with each other.
We're hiding things something.
stuff.
Yeah.
And because of that, there's often an insecurity that if people really knew me, be they wouldn't like what they see and I think there's a profound sense in which most people Self -for -from -that, you know, in professional terms, we talk about imposter syndrome or whatever.
But I think actually in human relationships a lot of people feel that way.
Yeah, yeah.
No, I totally get I'm it.
so much there, but so this idea of modeling friendship I think is incumbent on us as leaders and I think it's incumbent upon anybody that actually has good friendship, you know, we Sharon and I, I um, I remember, I mean, my parents got divorced when I was nine.
So I never really saw a happy marriage.
night.
My parents got on a K while we were growing up but never really saw a happy marriage and then I lived with Nick and Gerner.
I used to hang out with David and Julie, the founders of the church here in Liverpool and I saw a model to to me what happy marriage could be like and I thought man you can actually have a happy marriage right and so here I am married 25 years later now and it's still happy by the way everyone please don't know it's still happy and but It it's was this whole idea of modeling, like living, doing life with Nick and Jan and David and Julie.
It wasn't what, so much what they said, it was so much what they did and what I saw modeled.
And so we take that, we We've done that in our house, we have a fairly sizable house, so we've got three lodgers living with us at the moment.
Three people, if you don't know what, lodgers.
Basically, just can be part of the family.
You take one of the rooms in the house and you just become part of the family.
We have three of them the at the moment moment.
often very different walks of life and because I'm really keen that we model family and that we model marriage.
It's an interesting idea then then.
to extend that to friendship how do you model friendship so we are you know I'm a bit of a Liverpool fan as you are tone as well we do like and it's amazing isn't how actually with men, how much football is the initiator of many conversations.
And so all that, what I do every time I level pool and play in the game, as I part of my, I don't know if I'd call it ministry, but part of my entire Intentionality is right.
I'm going to subscribe to Sky Sports.
I'm going to get the football on and I'm just going to have a WhatsApp group and I'm going to say guys come around.
round I'm going to throw some food on the barbecue.
We're going to eat, we're going to hang and we're going to chat and sometimes a chat's meaningless nonsense about football quite often often.
stuff will come up that we can just talk through and pray about.
But it's that sort of intentionality, isn't it?
That whole doing it on purpose and then opening up to to other people, you know, we're always inviting people to the football thing, but here's a question for you on the whole vulnerability thing, right?
Because at This this has come up time and time again when I talk to people about friendship, you know, and going deeper and being vulnerable with folks.
They'll say, yes, I did.
That was somebody, but they did dot dot dot, right?
They, there's some kind of betrayal or there's some kind of let down down.
often because you're the person doesn't know how to deal with your issue or your level of vulnerability.
And so because that experience explains, was bad people then shrink back right yeah and I think that's real but I think you know the Openness intimacy vulnerability opens us up to pain, but a world without openness intimacy and vulnerability brings an even bigger more permanent sense of pain.
And I think it's being able to to see that in taking a risk, the risk is worth it.
You know, I just love, you know, some of the proverbs that talk about friendship and one of those and is, Proverbs 12, the writers choose their friends carefully.
And, you know, so I'm all for, you know, you and know, and I'm appropriateness with that.
But I think as well that part of that is if I'm going to be secure in myself then I'm prepared to take a risk on what if someone betrays me.
And again you know In this series on French, I was really struck if you look at Jesus in the garden, I guess, 70s.
So just, that's just rewind.
So Jesus has this meal, shares his heart, even talks about the fact that he's going to be betrayed.
They go, they go to to the garden, they go, Jesus goes to pray and as they pray, Jesus says, look, I need you to be with with me.
me in pray and the guys around him fall asleep and he goes and he says look guys I just I mean need a viewer at the moment You know just watch and be ready and they fall asleep and basically having three times like here are these guys and each time Jesus like imagine Jin, look what that's like.
You know, you've poured yourself into these guys.
You know you're about to give your life for them.
You've invited I did them into that real special place of intimacy is you go to pray and be with God the Father and let you down and then you let them back in and And let I just see in that a willingness to take a risk and to realize that Part of the joys of human relationship require us to open ourselves to the prospect of pain.
but then pain is part of being human.
And I guess in a bigger sense, I think one of the huge things is that our culture right now, always one of expressive individuals.
Oh yeah.
So let me unpack that a bit.
So that's where I am at the center of my my world.
world and my whole world is essentially defined by me and my my interactions with others are basically defined by me being my true self and it's other people's job to celebrate me and that's so much of the the problems we have in our relationship.
friendships now, because our aspirations, our friendships, our that everything about my friendship should celebrate me.
And that's turning things on its head because traditionally, historically in culture we'd find our meaning in relationships, we find our meaning in in words.
work and responsibility.
But the big shift, and I think incredibly so of the last 20 years or so, is that rather than finding meaning in relationships and with others.
Now I find meaning inside myself that I am the creator.
inter -remeaning and that's such a huge burden.
The idea that I've just got to find what's truly me and let everybody else celebrate the true me.
Yeah.
That's a burden we just can't cope with because we weren't created.
created to be the creator of meaning in ourselves but to find meaning with others.
That creates such a burden and it means that we hide away.
way from true friendships or it means that as we get wealthier as a society and some you talked about earlier we're more wealthy than ever but we're more miserable.
It's horrible.
Yeah.
Because the wealth has come with this sense of kind of needing to celebrate the greatness of who I am.
And most of us just ate that great.
Not that great.
And as we believe that's our expected, we're not going to let people in.
And we are going to become become...
confused about our identity.
We're going to be confused about what and then look for identity and meaning in in weird that contorted versions or idealized or imagined versions of ourselves.
Yeah, it's never because I totally I totally see it and you, you know, it's interesting isn't it?
You know, we, they talk about neoliberalism don't they?
In the terms of where are we in a neoliberalistic society which started with Reagan and Thatcher, which which prioritized work, right?
So work was the big thing and you worked hard and if you worked hard you can achieve the American dream or the British dream or whatever it is.
And that led led to burnout because people were working crazy hours.
And so now we sort of shifted that a little bit.
Do we still work crazy Yeah, hours?
I was probably we do.
But actually we've turned stuff into work.
For So, example, you take something like social media, this constant need to create content.
So you can't just go to a restaurant.
I'm going to be a strong now and enjoy a meal with people, you know, with your friends.
You can't just need, you have to take a photo and then you have to put that photo with a caption and some hashtags on it.
So now...
Now, what was rest or friendship or relaxation has become work.
And so we are just burned out.
We don't.
We're so so fatigued by this whole thing.
Yeah.
That actually The thing which gets sacrificed in all of this is the space to be with friends, to be with real friends, friends you have chosen wisely, not just to fall it down the pubway.
where you can moan about Joe Biden's latest policy or the fact that Trump might be coming back or Boris Johnson or whoever you want to about moan.
today.
That's not what I'm talking about.
It feels like we've become so busy busy.
because we become so wealthy that you can see the different things get sacrificing.
Well, let's just sacrifice our friendships.
We're not going to meet up with with that.
them as much.
And even actually post COVID, it's like, I don't want to go back to church anymore because I'm so busy with these other things.
Do you know what I mean?
And these things sort sort of get knocked out whilst we're trying to maintain this sort of elusive identity over here whatever that is for ourselves you know this belief that we have to seize a Kalanowski calendar.
calls it the do -to -be lie.
I've got to do this to be somebody or something, right?
Yeah, and I think that's so damaging.
Isn't it?
Because it perpetuates just a lack of reality.
I think as well if we really are But honest, we have created a situation where we've made community optional.
And again, And this this is...
is where the whole piece like so again my world a lot of it is Church wealth right so What I see for example in the Gospels and in the book of that where I see in the book of Acts particularly the Acts chapter 2, Acts chapter 4 gives two pictures of what the early church was like yeah it says that they held things in common that they were devoted to fellowship and that idea of fellowship It's really interesting because it's a word that's very church isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, or talking the fellowship of the ring, but that word fellowship essentially means the a joining of hearts over holding something in common.
And I think without out that sense of church being a place where we hold something in common and we lose choose church and it becomes just a service to attend rather than a community.
So really interesting, when we came out of COVID we opened up our church space, one of our church spaces is a former cafe kind of thing, within the space.
But we called that, comments.
space and we just invited the local community in to reconnect so it's just it's just coffees, food, it's like kind of youth club club.
for the whole family.
And it's kind of wild because there's a real diversity.
There's often a group of refugees are in there.
There's There's a group of kids, there's a group of youth, there's older people, there's people of different nationalities and races, but in that common In sense, space, that's where fellowship happens.
That's where heart and joy are.
And I think, you know, without having a sense of what do we hold in common.
So I think common space, a common sense of purpose and but in that early church in that there was a sharing you know that's something that again I think as we've become wealthy we haven't necessarily become more generous.
That's true.
Yeah.
And I think, I think actually if we once to be rich in friendships we need to learn to be generous and to share now i'm gonna fix right which means i have an inbuilt so distrust of others because like when food was on the table and there's six of you yeah yeah nor the law as is you snooze you lose.
Yeah.
So the idea of sharing a big but but actually our world Because is we become more wealthy, we haven't learned to share more.
And we like the idea, for example, of the government redistributing.
You know, we like the the idea of the government paying for refugees.
We like the idea of the government paying for this or that.
But actually when it comes Will to you and I invest our time and money in giving to others?
That becomes a whole other world, right?
that the government should take better care of refugees, take better care of the elderly, homeless people, but then won't vote.
to pay more taxes to do so.
There's a disconnect there right?
Yeah, yeah.
Almost like somehow there's the father Christmas of tax who's gonna pay for it.
It's gonna sort of magically appear.
There isn't it yet.
Yeah, and what we see in the book of Acts is that it says that God's grace, it acts force as this God's grace was will so strong on them that there wasn't any needy amongst them.
Yeah.
And I think you know we We often study political philosophy, people always think about Karl Marx and from each according to his ability to each according to his need, it's actually ripped off in the book of That's it.
actually people who had gave and there was no needy amongst them.
How is it?
It's kind of balanced.
by the idea that actually it's not endorsing laziness because there's even scripture saying if you're not willing to to work while you eating kind of like don't that.
support people who are choosing to be lazy in this.
But actually a commonality of realizing that the resources I have might be needed.
by someone else.
I have a responsibility to others.
And I think we can talk a good game about about community.
But unless we see that, I mean, it's one of the reasons I love visiting your house.
Because your house, you never know who staying stayed.
there.
I don't like like one child leaves to go to university and you realize I hope they like you because there they're for their room.
But this really built community on a Friday's a house.
You know, you built this big pizza oven outside and then you built built this big outdoor kitchen area because you know that people come together over food.
And you're not waiting worried.
for someone else to instigate community you're doing it and you're paying for it you know you're buying the chicken you're buying the pizza you It's know.
but it's that realization that you've got space Because some financial resource and actually other people can then and feel form community around you.
And communities have an inch bends, don't they?
Yeah, they do.
And the thing about It it, is with both with friendships with communities and gathering people.
It doesn't have to be a formal thing.
We don't have to label it or name it.
You know, I know that churches just have community groups, small groups, how groups, you know, whatever we want to call them and that's maybe another conversation.
What I'm just talking about Here here is just using what you've got to create space for friends and developing that yourself without labelling.
with out being asked to by a leader do you mind leading this small group over here is not the same thing as i'm just gonna throw some burgers on the barbie and invite invite some guys around and see what happens.
You know, and if one person shows up, we'll have a great time.
If ten people show up, we'll have a chaotic time, but we'll have good a good time.
time somehow and we'll be intentional in this but I think it's super important you know you yeah I'd an Englishman Homes is castle is not a great phrase.
I don't think you know it's it's it's not a helpful analogy and my world others is particularly into cultural where we are in London where an intercultural church and you just see how hospitality is so important.
Away.
Sadly, in which often in British culture it's a bit lacking.
The idea that actually just opening up what I I have haven't sharing it with others is key, but I guess one one of the other things just kind of wrenching it back to friendship a bit because I'm really really is sorry.
we stop building friendships when we lack self awareness.
So here's the thing I typically hear.
So I typically hear I'm lonely, people say, and I just can't build friendships.
You know, it's, and what's What's often going on?
actually happening and particularly guys who have my age and your age, you know, they hit 45 -50 or they hit 40 and and actually the way that we build French and this is really important because it's sometimes like you know when you and I became friends with when we were at university we both studied arts subjects which meant we had a fair bit of time.
We can't spend that till three in the morning chatting chat.
nonsense, meeting you at risk, you've got a very true apart from one time I did have one I way.
just want to point that out.
But what happens is we build close friendships then.
But then when you're 30 and you've got two kids, you can't build friendships.
Yeah, Yeah.
that way, if you're not so for where you say there's a problem and that problem must be church or it must be other people or whether reality Galatia is just that the nature of friendships changes different seasons of life and when you're 30 just showing up you know you go if you're 30 with two young kids just showing up without vomit on you is it is a weird And actually, French it's might look like a snatched coffee.
But if we're still thinking that French just it's have to look like they did back then.
Then we really lack self -awareness.
I think As it's...
soon as that happens nobody can ever measure up to that because if I meet people and think about my friendship with you and I think right right i want them to fit to build it i'm if they're going to be my friend it's going to work in that way yeah i want to just end up disillusion because that was the time and season of my life that's not there.
But it's like what does it mean to build friendship in this season?
Yeah.
What does And it mean?
again, I think it's that open the slate.
It's that it's that being open to friendships looking different.
Yeah, it is.
And I think it's Super so.
powerful, but I think it you're totally right.
If you are a Christian man listening to this and you are not investing your friendship, so I really think you need to change your thinking on that.
And obviously, I mean, we're talking two blocs together, but this applies to women as well, you know.
I think it's so important that you maintain attain and develop good friendships.
And I think for man, you know, your wife is an awesome person, but I think you need good male man.
friends around you as well.
And I think you should invest time and energy in that.
Same if you're not, I mean if you're not a Christian you should still have good friends.
I'm not saying that you're exempt, but I think as Christians we need to model what that looks like.
Because we should should be we should be okay I think we're probably on but we should be okay with being you know open and vulnerable and praying for each other and not judging one another.
are not feeling like I can't say this because they're going to think I'm an absolute lunatic.
But actually just bearing our hearts being true to ourselves in terms of you know, just not trying to hide anything, you know, not trying to be something that I'm not.
One of the things I've always valued but about our friendship, apart from the fact we always laugh whenever we get together and the banter is just ridiculous and it's just fine.
But it's that if I'm doing something things stupid.
I know for well you're going to come to me and go Matt you are being stupid and you need to stop and here's why You've you've been a lovely bride, but you've been stupid right and I really appreciate that I also appreciate appreciate the fact that if I'm not being a great husband, I know full well that my wife will call you, she'll call Dave Connelly, she'll call Simon and a few other people and go, he's being a prep.
Within five minutes, I guarantee you, I'm going to have Phone five minutes.
calls go matte while you're being a prank.
Jermaine and there's something quite safeguarding about that.
Yeah, I'll grease friends.
the...
So Annie became a Christian as a kid and then, so I just say you don't know, Annie is Tony's wife.
And then but then recommitted.
to partly largely through these two Greek sisters, Mary and Pathana, and they have this phrase that I love.
When you eat water, with them, they chuck a bit of salt on it and they always say a bit of salt brings out the sweetness of the water melon and I love that because in our friendships sometimes it's the little salty parts that actually bring out the depth of those friendships and the really to say hard things and you know I think you can really and again it's it's modeled in Jesus july he says you know to at one point you know he's like then do I have to keep repeating this don't you get it He says his disciples like you're slow to hear what part of this don't you get.
And Jesus was incredibly loving, but he was ready to say the difficult things.
Yeah.
I think unless So we have friendships where people can tell us the hard things.
Then I think those friendships aren't really very real.
fish, aren't they?
Yeah, and I think that's partly how we've become isolated because no one had you wrong.
Yeah.
And we've seen it in political leaders.
Yeah, you can see them heading down a course and you think why isn't anyone telling all the classic isn't it's the the pop idol X factor type thing with someone goes on there now i can't sing like if i sing it sounds like someone's torture and cat now what's good is that my Friends, take that back.
The worship band in our old church said to me, please don't stand so close to the front.
You're sending me a bullshit man out of time and truth.
Like one of them said that to me, right?
And in fact, I was in the mirror all I'm the time.
a mechanic.
Why said do they have clapping where you're from?
And I was like, yeah, of course, it's where you don't seem familiar with that.
And no good at music stuff, but I know it.
But you know we've all seen that X -Factor additional.
Yeah, yeah, where somebody has been hyped up by their friends and the judges written to shreds.
Yeah, you think and your friends didn't do tell you.
Yeah.
And I guess, you know, part of the plea is we need to be able to to be bluntly and even ugly with the truth at times.
Yeah.
And I think that's such an important thing.
And again, you know, in a culture that wants to center ourselves as superheroes at the center of every narrative.
Like, it's quite normal now, go you go see see.
a therapist and they tell you anybody who doesn't make you feel good about yourself remove them from your life.
Yeah, the toxic people.
Yeah, it's the fans.
Like that really destroys community because I know that the biggest hindrance to me building good community is me.
Yeah.
It's my I have this phrase and I always like to remind myself and I remind others about it, but you're someone else's nightmare.
And unless We realize that the biggest obstacle in this is often ourselves.
Then I think we struggle to build community and friendship.
There's a big thought and this is something that is one of those things.
You know, kind of There there are verses of scripture you live by.
And for me, the start of one John chapter one, where John basically says, if we walk in the light, As he is in the lie, we had fellowship with one another in the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness.
What are see they saying?
in there is that if I want to walk in communion with Christ, if I want to walk with Jesus, his life fills my life.
Now when It's it's when the light comes in that illuminates all of my life, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Yeah.
And it's like, it can sting, right?
I mean, you, what's our response to the light coming on?
You know, I grew up in a home with cockroaches in, which wasn't particularly pleasant, but when you switch had swam, the light on the roaches wood scamp and you see them in the middle light you go to it the roaches scamper like a moth runs to to the lie and a roach runs from it and you know big choice for all of us bro are you a moth or roach.
If we walk in the light as he is in the light and we have fellowship with him another it's interesting that word fellowship is about the joining of heart.
thoughts about happiness.
So in others as I follow Jesus and allow his life to shine in my life, I open my life to others and then it says and the blood Jesus of Jesus.
cleanses us.
So I do believe there's a thing that if we want to follow Jesus with open hearts, we need to to be open with others and I believe that's partly about the confession of sin.
If I live my life in the life of Jesus, I will connect.
with others and then that defeat sin in my life how well because i'm not hiding what's my love yeah but also that sense of confession and you know.
I'm not a Catholic.
We don't need to confess sins for forgiveness, but we should confess sin for our own good.
So I don't need to to go go to a priest to have my sins absolved.
Jesus has done that.
But actually I need to confess sins to friends.
I need to confess wrong doings.
I need confess to my fears, my insecurities, because as I do it builds emotional health.
Yeah, it deals with those dark corners.
And I think there's something in there.
What does it mean to walk in the light of Jesus?
It means that we have a joining of hearts with others, we have fellowship and the blood of Jesus can do us.
And I think that is such a huge thing.
And part of that, you In know, it's a a great thing.
good sense, it's confession, but in a bad sense is provoked by somebody pointing out the need for change.
That's the power of it isn't that's the power of friendship and I think that's the power of accountability.
Accountability and friendship is a big thing.
Friends that you can be accountable with friends that will call stuff out and you and friends are work worth.
with you and walk with you when times are tough and hard, you know.
When they see you in need and they tell what they've got and they give it to you, not necessarily as money, but just in terms of...
Life in terms of time, in terms of energy, in terms of encouragement, you know, there's the whole aspect of that isn't there and I think, yeah, mate, I'm aware of Time.
time.
We've been chatting for about 50 minutes and it just goes by a million miles an hour, don't you?
You're still aware of it.
So Listen, bro, appreciate you coming on.
Appreciate you.
Appreciate our friendship and it's good that we're still friends.
I'm a gracious guy Yeah, but you know I'm actually still in awe of The the fact that earlier on you gave the example of buying skyscrapers to build community and your wife.
I believe that.
Yeah.
I'm thinking like, I try that.
But my wife just isn't that gallop.
Welcome believe it's cool, Sharon Gullible.
I don't think he meant it babe.
She's gone kick your butt later.
Brilliant, brilliant, absolutely awesome.
Well I listen to you and absolute legend, thanks for coming on and thank you for joining us today on the crowd church non -live livestream.
I'm sure you'd like and subscribe to what's going on.
Next week we will be back with our usual livestream services.
I have no idea who's hosting, I have no idea who's speaking.
I'm probably You sure.
should have figured that out before we start.
This is why I don't do the administration.
But it's going to be good.
Whatever it is, it's going to be good.
And do stay connected connected.
with us.
Tane, you're a legend.
Love you, everybody else, you're awesome.
Created awesome.
It's just a burden.
Then you have to bear Tony sometimes bears it I buried all the time but you definitely bear it.
We'll see you next week.
That's it from me and time.
Bye for now.
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