Atty. Richard Brock: [00:00:00] I mean, and again, I'm not saying it's easy to find those people, but once you found them, it's, I mean, but a, they're out there and B once you found them, you've got them because that's a win win. I mean, look, it's the gig economy and that is, you know, and that is their gig.

They write briefs, because most lawyers, most lawyers hate writing briefs, which, you know, I didn't love it myself when I was practicing, I mean, I get it. So that's just a, specific, you know, suggestion that may be helpful.

​

Introduction and Housekeeping

---

Richard James: Hey everybody, welcome to today's episode of Your Practice Mastered podcast, my name is Richard James. Unfortunately, we don't have my sidekick, MPS, with us today. It's one of those character building days for him. He was in his vehicle on an appointment earlier this morning. The vehicle broke down and he's stranded on the side of the road.

We're trying to get him some help and we feel bad for him having to go through that. So, you're going to have just one half of the team, which is me, the old guy.

Meet Richard Brock: From Attorney to Business Owner

---

Richard James: And you don't get the good [00:01:00] looking half of the team, which is my son, MPS. But nonetheless, I'm excited about today's episode because I'm here with Richard Brock from Modern Recruiting for OnBoard Legal.

And OnBoard Legal really does something that many law firm owners need, which is help them find legal talent. But before I get there and I break into the conversation with Richard. Just as a quick reminder, we put these together for you, these interviews together for you, so that you can get value. We ask nothing in return, except for you to just go ahead and like or subscribe or follow, comment. Do those things so that, we can get the algorithms of Google and podcast nation to be able to lift this up. So, more law firm owners can hear the message that you're enjoying right now.

Again, we'll continue to put out the free content. All we ask is that, you hit that button, to subscribe and make some comments. So with that being said, the housekeeping out of the way, Richard, welcome to the show today. I'm excited to have the conversation.

Atty. Richard Brock: [00:02:00] Thank you, Richard. I'm glad to be here, it's nice to speak to you.

Richard James: Yeah, we've got two Richards today. That's not often, so here we go. Do you always go by Richard?

by

Atty. Richard Brock: I,

I do. Some of my friends call me more colorful things that I probably shouldn't say here but yes. usually it's

Richard James: I tell them if they call me that, they just better mean it, that's all.

Atty. Richard Brock: Yeah, that's right.

Richard James: And mom calls me Richie, I get some of that too. So look, we're going to have a conversation about you and your journey, cause you are, well, I don't know if you're a recovering attorney but that's what some attorneys call it. Because you are an attorney yourself that practiced for many years and you've made this transition into business ownership. And I'm excited to talk about that but before we go there, to break the ice, to get to know you.

Is there anything you can tell us that maybe, about yourself personally, that not everybody else knows? So a little secret here on Your Practice Mastered podcast. About yourself that other people wouldn't know about you?

The Rockstar Dream and Family Stories

---

Atty. Richard Brock: Probably the secret that other people wouldn't know about me is that, I am an absolute wannabe rockstar. If I could go back and do it all over again, I would be Jimmy Page, I would be Dwayne Allman, I would be [00:03:00] Eric Clapton, take your pick. Unfortunately, I was born with no musical talent at all, which is really what thwarted my dreams to become a rockstar. But, you know, that's what I would do if I could.

Richard James: So, you love the stage and you love to entertain. Is that the idea?

Atty. Richard Brock: Yes and I love music. And it looks like a pretty fun lifestyle.

Richard James: It looks like a risky lifestyle too.

is true.

Atty. Richard Brock: there's some, danger areas, for sure.

Richard James: So my father, also a Richard. He is one of those people that were born with the ability to play music by ear, right? So, he can play any instrument by ear and I got zero. of As a matter of fact, he's 6'3 and my mom's 5 foot nothing. And I got stuck in the middle, around 5'10, right? And so I didn't get his height and I didn't get his musical talent.

I'm like, come on, seriously? And I didn't get his hair either. So, I'm not sure, I got the short end of the stick on the genetic gene pool. But my son did get it. So, he's a musician and it passed down to him. It's fun to watch him be able to do this. The other day, my wife ordered a piano and my son just [00:04:00] sat down and started, like, playing and I'm like, when did you learn to play the piano? He goes.

Atty. Richard Brock: I'm so,

Richard James: so envious of people like that, Oh, so envious, so envious. It's so much fun to watch. So I will never be a rock star either.

Richard Brock's Journey: From Law to Legal Recruiting

---

Richard James: So, tell us a little bit about your journey. So I look

Every journey has its highs and its lows. And so, you know, an encapsulated form, give me a picture about your origin story, how you got started as an attorney and you made the transition over to business ownership and what you do today?

Sure.

Atty. Richard Brock: Sure. So I am a lawyer, by background. I practiced, I was a civil litigator for about five years. And I was with a good firm with nice people who treated me well and bottom line is, I just knew that was not the career path for me. I knew, I would never be happy doing that as a career.

And again, it's always the question. It's like, well, Is it the work or is it the people? Well, I was with great people, so I knew that wasn't it. but it just, you know, something about the work, always kind of had an [00:05:00] entrepreneurial bent and I knew, I wanted to be on a career path that was more entrepreneurial. you know, what really one where I think like, Richard, I think, like, a lot of your audience does, I wanted to bet on myself.

And I know in a smaller law firm, solo practitioners, two, three person law firms, you know, you are betting on yourself. I was in a larger firm. So, didn't have that same kind of perspective on it but in any of that, I knew that I wanted to do something more entrepreneurial.

I had an opportunity to get into the legal recruiting business. And I found that I really liked it. I mean,

It's basically sales, you know, at the end of the day, recruiting is sales, which

I like, I like the fact that you win or you lose. I like the fact that, you're really helping law firms, sometimes corporate legal departments, they have to have talent, right? They want to grow and if you really think about it, law firms, they're not a whole lot of ways a law firm can grow. Particularly, if you're representing know, kind of the corporate America side, where you're billing hours.

You can either raise your rates [00:06:00] and or, you have to add, you have to put more engines in the water, right? You have to have more attorneys who are generating revenues. So I liked helping clients with their growth plans and I liked helping lawyers who wanted for various reasons to make a switch. Sometimes they wanted a bigger firm, sometimes a smaller firm, sometimes it's a new geographic location, sometimes it's a different compensation structure. I mean, There's a dozens of different reasons why attorneys will make a, career, a lateral move from firm A to firm B. But I found that I really like the business and I've now been in the business for over 20 years.

Richard James: So, it's interesting that you say that. I'll put the headline, like, you just knew that law wasn't going to be the thing that you wanted to do. And I have an opinion, I'm curious about your opinion. I have an opinion that, those who see themselves as entrepreneurs, I think we're born with it. And it may lay dormant for a period of time until we realize it. But I don't,

know that you can, I suppose you could [00:07:00] learn to be an entrepreneur but I think most entrepreneurs are born with it.

Do you,

do you I,

Atty. Richard Brock: I,

I

I agree a hundred percent with that. And all of the entrepreneurs that I've spoken to you know, through the years, I think would also agree with that. It's either a, either a blessing or a curse, kind of depending on what day it is. But I, I do think it's something ingrained. Well,

Richard James: It's funny you say that, my son, MPS, who's a partner in my firm. When he was a young man, 10, 11 years old. He's like, I'm going to be a business owner. And he started selling things very early. He would come home and say to mom, Hey, I need, 10 dozen chocolate chip cookies and she'd say, for what? He goes, well, I just sold them. She goes, you mean you sold them before I made them? He goes, yeah, I figured it was easier that way. He was born this way, we don't get credit. But when he told it to me, and I said, you know, if you made the decision, this is what you want to do.

I just said. I go, Congratulations, I go, it can be a very exciting career path. But I said, my condolences in advance, because there are going to be some wild rides. and

you just got to be ready, for the, well, you're not going to be ready for him. You [00:08:00] just got to be ready for the fact that it's going to happen and you're going to have to deal with it.

Challenges and Highs of Running a Business

---

Richard James: So, speaking of that transition to that law firm owner, that's sitting out there and they're going through a wild ride right now, right? Maybe they're on their 70th hour this week. It's 2 o'clock in the morning and they're just looking for some hope. And they just want to know that they're not alone, regardless of whether they own a law firm or any kind of business.

Let's talk about some of the valleys that you've gone through. Do you have any that you can remember specifically that are darker times for you when you were starting to grow your business?

Atty. Richard Brock: Oh, sure. you know, Again, probably like, a lot of your, audience members. I mean, I think any time you're running a small business. Which if you're running a law firm, you're running a small business. You have the nonstop pressures of you know, first and foremost is cashflow, right?

You got to meet payroll, you got to pay rent, you know, you've got to cover all your other expenses before you even think about paying yourself. you know, and

I mean,

that's,

the number one pressure I think for any small business owner. you know, And then of course, beyond that, you've [00:09:00] got the constant pressure of bringing in new business and then of course, you have to actually perform the work. Your audience, every attorney, in your audience has to be a good attorney.

If they're not on top of everything else, on top of managing the business and marketing the business and bring in hiring and firing staff and everything else at the end of the day. If you're not a good lawyer, then it's never going to fly. So sure, I can absolutely relate to the pressures that they're feeling on a daily basis.

Richard James: And so, how about some of your higher moments? So, if we,

if juxtapose the lower moments and, the struggles that you have. What for you has been a win for you as you've been working in this industry?

Atty. Richard Brock: You know, sure. So, in my business and it really is, you mentioned earlier about emotions when you're an entrepreneur. I mean, I've always, it's not very original but I always liken it to a roller coaster, I mean, it really is. You've got high highs and thrilling speed and then you got low lows and that's, goes with it. As far as the highs, I still get excited around here when we close a [00:10:00] deal, when we make a placement.

That's a sale and it doesn't matter whether it's a small sale or whether, we also put law firm mergers together and those are the biggest deals that we work on. Obviously, I'm more excited about a law firm merger than I am about know, a smaller deal, but I still get a rush out of closing a small deal, it's the thrill of the kill. And I think to your earlier point, I think you either have that in you or you don't. Some people really wouldn't get that excited about closing any deal, particularly a small one. You know, If you've got that gene, then you just do and it never goes away.

Richard James: We use Slack in our office now cause we've got so many employees all over the countries. And so to keep track of everything, everybody communicates through Slack. And on one of the channels, when a new deal comes through and the contract is signed, it comes through Slack. And there is little in this world that makes me as happy from a business perspective than when that little ding comes through that we got a new contract.

Even though I didn't necessarily have anything to do with it anymore, I didn't necessarily close the deal anymore. [00:11:00] And somebody else said, I'm so happy for the salesperson so they can get a great commission. I'm so happy for the marketing team because they were able to generate the lead. I'm so happy for the client because they crossed the chasm in their mind and stepped up and said that they were ready to take the next step in their learning process to be an entrepreneur. But really, honestly, secretly, I'm just happy that the kill happened, I mean, I just, as a salesperson, I love it, I just love it.

Atty. Richard Brock: Yeah. That's it, I mean, those, are the highs in my business. And obviously, the bigger the deal, the bigger the high. But the high is there regardless.

Richard James: Yeah, for that law firm owner that's out there. Who maybe isn't running a profitable firm for one reason or another and maybe they're swamped. I've known some law firm owners who, when that next deal comes through. Maybe it's they've closed the deal, maybe they met with somebody and they're sitting across in the back of their mind, there's part of their mind going, please don't say yes. Because they're scared that the next case is going to topple them over the edge. You know, That straw that breaks the camel's back because they're so stressed out. Because they're [00:12:00] trying to do it all themselves. Because they're trying to maximize their growth and they're the only bar card.

And whether it's out of fear or out of misunderstanding or whatever about being able to grow and to bring that next lawyer on. There's a gap there that they got to make.

Strategies for Law Firm Growth and Delegation

---

Richard James: So let's talk a little bit about, you know, it's gotta be great for you to actually find a great placement I'd imagine, right? So when you take that law firm that needs to fill a gap because they're trying to grow and they need to add that additional bar card or maybe it is that small and solo that is stressed out of their mind. And they just need somebody to take some of the work off their plate. Finally, for the first time ever, they've always done it all themselves.

And this is going to be the first attorney they hire, whatever it is, maybe it's the corporate placement that they're trying to grow that department. And they just need to, you know, they need to bring in another million dollar bill or whatever that is for you. What is it like for you to go through that process and, place and maybe better question is, what do you see some law firms struggle with when they're thinking about placing that next lawyer and why should they try to overcome that struggle?

Atty. Richard Brock: know, there's obviously a difference [00:13:00] in how a larger firm is going to approach that issue and how a smaller firm is. you know, For a larger firms, a lot of times, know, if they're talking about bringing on a partner, business growth tactic, right? you're talking about an associate or maybe enough council, that's what you really need. That's when, Hey, we've got more work than we can handle. We need somebody to help us do the work. You know, It's the, finders minders and grinders. you know, grinder or two in here to help us get this stuff done.

For people who are running a smaller law firm. And I get it and I've spoken to a number of these attorneys who can really feel just overwhelmed, almost, like you were saying, I almost hope, we don't even get this new client. Cause I don't know how we're going to serve them. One thing about it and it's not easy but certainly, there are more options today for those folks than there ever have been. There are contract attorneys. There are part time attorneys. There are parents with young children who would love to pick up four [00:14:00] hours a week, eight hours a week, things like that.

I mean, There really are more options today to delegate some of that work than there ever have been. you know, You're not stuck with the auto but used to be, Hey, every law firm either had partners or you had associates and there was nothing else. Those days are long, long gone. Now I know it takes time to delegate, it takes time to train people, but it's just like delegating in any other business. If you have a growing firm and more clients are coming in the door and you got more business to handle. There's really no other option but to delegate that work somehow.

Now, each individual firm, each individual lawyer has to figure out what works best for him or her. Sometimes, it's hiring, law students, law clerks you know, from the local law school all the way up to hiring lawyers with 30 years of experience who just want to work a little bit, earn a little extra money, but that's all they want and everything in between.

So that would really be my recommendation to a lot of the audience who [00:15:00] do have that, just overwhelmed feeling is just consider the fact that there really are a lot of viable alternatives out there. Yeah, you got to invest a little time on the front end but I think it, should more than make up for itself.

Richard James: Yeah, I thank you for saying that. That will help a number of law firm owners who are fearful of taking that leap to hire the full time associate that are going to have that big dollar commitment. And that this is a way for them to grow into it. And as you said, there are multiple solutions out there for them.

We have a lot of our firms who are litigation based firms. We have a firm who is, a couple of them that are, a state litigation firm specialty. We have some that are family law litigation. We certainly have criminal firms that use litigation and we certainly have some personal injury and worker comp and that kind of stuff that also have litigation in it as well.

And in those litigation firms, one of the challenges are. Many of the people we find are, see themselves as business owners who happen to sell legal services as opposed to [00:16:00] lawyers who happen to be business owners. And like you and I, they too love the kill, which means they love the market and they love to sell and they love to bring in the business.

And what happens is, they find themselves at some point quickly overwhelmed and this business has to now get served. And they have to bring in that next person. And, sometimes they have a hard time finding them or their growth is hampered by their ability to find them. And so I've seen our firms start what we call like a litigation university inside of their offices.

And they bring in brand new college students and they train them their way through their litigation practices. And they bring them up from scratch and they've got great programs that are kind of firm growing you know, their own legal team. And then we have others that, like you said, go out and find that chronologically accomplished attorney who has decided they don't want to run the business anymore but there be happy to build 20, 30 hours a week.

And they'd love to bring their firm under your umbrella to be able to do that. And they've got all the experience in the world and you can give them as many cases you want, as [00:17:00] long as it's inside that hourly commitment that they're willing to give and they can handle it because they've got all the experience they need.

And so, there are a lot of different options available for law firm owners today. To be able to bring in a solution but one solution that isn't okay. You tell me if I'm wrong, is to suffer in silence and to not act. Is that fair?

Atty. Richard Brock: know, And look, I get it. I mean, Everybody who's run his or her own business, his or her own law firm, you know, we all have sleepless nights, we all have times of absolute stress. But there are things that can be done to help at least, you'll never eliminate the stress. That just goes with the territory but I think, you can minimize or certainly reduce it. I, And I'll give you a good example. I know a number of attorneys who run smaller firms, particularly litigation firms and the thing that they outsource that they say, one, they don't like doing it, and two, it takes up so much time is brief writing. Whether it's you know, appellate briefs or just trial briefs, [00:18:00] they will have one or two people, you know, $10.99, you don't even have to give them an office, they just do it remotely. They'll write the briefs and they'll charge you know, X dollars per hour.

And you just pay them as a $10.99 and they write your briefs for you. And again, I'm not saying it's easy to find those people but once you found them, but A, they're out there and B, once you found them you've got them. Because that's a win win. I mean, look, it's the gig economy and you know, that is their gig, they write briefs. because most lawyers, most lawyers hate writing briefs, I didn't love it myself when I was practicing. I mean, I, I get it. So That's just a, specific suggestion that may be helpful.

Richard James: What a great insight. It's not just limited to brief writing, but that's a powerful one. But there is always somebody out there who loves what you hate to do, who loves to do what you hate to do. And so, if they're willing to go ahead and do it for a fee. And if you can send them business regularly and you pay them fairly and it's a good relationship communication wise, once you find them, they'll be yours for as long as they're willing to do this.

[00:19:00] And so. It's a wonderful relationship, I completely agree. Again, it could be brief writing. It could be document collection. It could be petition creation. Fill in the blank. It could be a lot of different things that people can do, lawyers can do or paralegals or non legal folks can do for the firm that the law firm owner doesn't enjoy doing and they can find somebody who can do it for them.

That's a great insight. Now, before we leave for today, I want to make a quick pit stop on the comment that you made earlier. Because we talked a little bit off camera and I don't think a lot of lawyers know that this is available to them because I think they believe the opposite is true.

Opportunities for Acquiring or Selling a Law Practice

---

Richard James: That if they've become chronologically accomplished and they've decided they no longer want to run the business of law, there is actually an opportunity for them to be acquired. Is that accurate?

Atty. Richard Brock: Yeah. So I have seen a number of law farms out there who will sell their practice. First of all, very first recommendation would be, check with the state bar or the governing [00:20:00] authority in the state in which you practice. Because as we all know, different states have different rules about almost everything. But for most states, yeah, you can sell your practice.

Now, a couple of caveats. Of course, it's always up to the client, whether or not that client sticks with the attorney who acquired your practice, okay? But generally speaking, the way I've seen it done is, it's like a succession plan, right? Like the senior attorney will strike an arrangement with typically a younger attorney, you know, who's hungry, who wants to get after it, he or she has everything except a large enough client base to have a sustainable practice.

And they will make a financial arrangement and there's usually sort of a transition period over a year or two. It can be longer It can be shorter but a year or two in order to introduce the newer attorney to the established clients and then the two of them, you know, make a financial arrangement that makes sense for both.

I know there are a few consultants [00:21:00] out there, who help advise law firms on these type of transactions. I haven't worked with any of them enough to vouch for them, but I do know they're out there. So, there are ways to do this and that's a way for older attorneys who are near a retirement age to monetize what they've built up. Rather than just you know, closing, you know, locking the door, turning the lights out. And walking away without having really received any financial benefit from what you've spent years building up. So there are certainly ways to do it.

Richard James: Yeah, so if you're on a growth pattern, know that there are people, there are attorneys that are in your practice area right now in the geographic region that you're in that may be looking for an exit. And so, it could be a great growth strategy for you. If you're on the other side of the spectrum and you're chronologically accomplished and got to the point where you don't want to do it anymore.

There are likely younger, growing attorney law firm owners that are willing to acquire. And these deals are not straightforward like they are in [00:22:00] a lot of the business world where it's multiple on EBITDA. It's usually some kind of creative financial package that works for both parties and everybody feels like they got a win out of it. And it just takes usually sitting down over a cup of coffee or multiple cups of coffee or whatever your beverage of choice is, to just hammer out. Honestly, usually, it comes down to likability, right? Is there a chemistry between these two people? And if there is, we can start there. Once that chemistry exists, now we can have an honest conversation.

Cause the younger guy wants to know that he's buying something that's trustworthy and the older guy wants to make sure or gal, forgive me for putting gender on that. But the younger, older person wants to make sure that the younger person coming in is actually going to carry along their legacy.

Well, right.

and of course they get

Right.

Atty. Richard Brock: Absolutely, yeah. And take care of the clients, you know, the older attorney has been serving those clients for a long time and they want to make sure that those clients are going to be taken care of. And really, if you find the right person in a succession [00:23:00] plan like, that's the best way to take care of those clients.

Because, it's either that or try to start referring them out and who knows what happens there or just turn the lights off and that, doesn't really serve anyone. I mean, To me, it's a very viable plan that serves both interests, as well as, most importantly, serves the interests of the clients.

Richard James: That's great.

Richard Brock's New Book and Closing Remarks

---

Richard James: So Richard, tell me, what are you most excited about now in your practice, where you're going from here? What's next for you? What are you excited about today?

Atty. Richard Brock: Well, thank you for asking. The biggest news in my world, actually, I just wrote a book. I wrote a book that you can get it on Amazon. We just hit the Amazon Best Sellers list. So we're, yeah, thank you. So, we're excited about that. The book is called, Win the Talent Game and it just came out very recently. And it is about how law firms grow by talent acquisition and how talented attorneys out there make the right career moves to further their career path.

Richard James: That's so cool, on the Amazon Best Seller list and writing book. I've written four short books. We call them, Shucks Around Here. And so I know what that's like, it's a [00:24:00] passion project, right? And I understand what's involved in these and so i'm excited to read your book myself. I'll make sure we put a link to it in the show notes. But is there anywhere specifically you'd like them to go to learn more about you?

Atty. Richard Brock: Yeah. Thank you for that question. So, my company is OnBoard Legal. And the best way to find information about us, about my bio for those who are interested is, OnBoardLegal.com. Spelled just like it sounds.

Richard James: Thank you so much for sharing your insights about not only your journey today and what it's been like to be a natural born entrepreneur that went lawyer. And then figured out he really wanted to be a business owner. And sharing that journey. But also, the insights that you shared today about the idea of hiring that associate to gain some, reduce the overwhelm in the firm or possibly look to grow the firm through mergers and acquisitions or be able to exit your firm if you've come to that point in life.

I think that there's some real writer downers here for everybody and I'm excited to read your book and I hope our listeners are [00:25:00] excited to read your book as well. You can go ahead and grab a copy of that book from Richard down in the show notes. And again, as always, thank you for listening.

As the listener of the Your Practice Mastered podcast. Again, go ahead and hit that subscribe or like button. And we will catch you next time on the next episode of the pod. Richard, thanks for being here today.

Atty. Richard Brock: Richard, thank you. I enjoy talking to you.