PJ Ellis (00:00)

so Some stories punch through the noise and Ben Williams story is one of them from serving as a Royal Marines commando in Afghan to coaching the England football team on resilience. Ben's life has been about finding strength in the struggle. He's an author, a tech entrepreneur, a man who's faced his own demons head on. And now he's joining the Whitting Grit team, buzzing.

Andy Dawson (00:01)

you

PJ Ellis (00:22)

to help others do the same. This episode, I've got a feeling, won't be just about survival. It's all about what comes after. Welcome Mr. Ben Williams. How are you, mate?

Ben Williams - (00:33)

Very well, thank you for having me on. What an intro!

PJ Ellis (00:36)

What do you think of that? Was that alright?

Ben Williams - (00:38)

You did well. Yeah.

Andy Dawson (00:40)

I think it is fine. ⁓

PJ Ellis (00:40)

You know what, mate, I suspect the platforms

that you've been speaking on before and the people that you've spoken to have done a better job in introducing you. But you know what, I know you as Ben, me mucka. It's not until really you sort of strip away those layers that you see what an amazing gentleman you are. So should we start with that? Who is Ben Williams? Tell me a bit more, mucka. What are you all about?

Ben Williams - (01:01)

okay. Here we go. We've got an hour, haven't ⁓ sit back. So yeah. First off, it was a great intro, a humbling intro. It's always a humbling intro. think I live in the kind of funny, it kind of live in my own shadow sometimes of people think you're one thing. actually I just, Ben, as I saying before, who sits in the shed at the weekend tinkering with stuff. And actually that's who the real Ben is, right?

PJ Ellis (01:03)

Yeah, lock the doors mate, lock the doors.

Ben Williams - (01:29)

But yeah, my experience stems from the Royal Marines. I joined the Royal Marines in 2009. I was a bit of a troubled child before that. you know, that's its own story and it's going off in all sorts of wrong directions. And it was going to land in one or two bad places. And the Marines was my call in. It always had been, you know, when I was a young kid, we don't, we don't have a military family, but on sort of divorce dad weekends, we would go to

military museums and that's where he would take us to occupy us, I think a little bit. we'd go to like the parachute regiment one and the Imperial War Museum. And then we went to Portsmouth quite a few times to see the Marines one down there. And I remember being infatuated with like the pictures and the stories and buying the books. And I dressed up over the years and got my kit. And I just, I was a soldier deep down somewhere in there. I was a softer kid. I wasn't...

fighter or a hardened street kid whatsoever. But there was a soldier in there. And I think in line with that was there was probably a call in a bigger purpose and somewhere I wanted to go. And I couldn't find that for many years. It's a bit of a lost team and going off the beaten track and causing issues and trying to fill that void has been a bouncer and maybe trying to go down that life. And yeah, it didn't end well. that's, you know, fortunately where the Marines found me or I found them and

Yeah, 2008, I started applying 2009 I joined and then I spent 10 years in the Marines, which was just the most up and down journey that you can obviously imagine, through to medical discharge 10 years later. So did a decade and it was June kind of a latter time in the Marines where I really started enjoying coaching people and taking

Andy Dawson (03:03)

you

Ben Williams - (03:19)

young, raw civilians on that journey to become a Marine and then passing them out 32 weeks later as a frontline ready commando. And as you mentioned, you know, working with England football, was in that part of my career that that happened and sort of saw it as a wider opportunity. I thought, okay, maybe it's not just how we do this stuff in the Marines that works well. Is there anything I can take across into the civilian world if I'm leaving?

Uh, the England opportunity opened up a lot of doors. connected me with a lot of people. got to go back and work with them a few times after that. That then created an opportunity in sport, which then built credibility that enabled me to go to the bigger businesses. And all of a sudden I was, you know, working at the banks and, uh, in one of the big social, uh, well, Metta, one of the social media companies and no other.

big corporates working with managers to help upskill them in their leadership, but also coaching people. And that's where really coaching began for me. And then over that journey, when COVID struck, my business partner at the time, I thought, well, maybe there's something in what we're doing here that could be created into a technical solution, which is where the tech startup started looping, which again, is its own journey of ups and downs, resilience.

Andy Dawson (04:28)

Thank

Ben Williams - (04:36)

A lot of things will fall out of that as we'll discuss here. Got this wonderful little fly which has entered the discussion. And then, yeah, I'm sure we'll get onto it, but yeah, by the end of last year and going into January this year, I found myself in quite a dire mental health place and needed to completely rebuild myself again. And that's what I went and did. And it's been, you know, long courses of therapy and...

PJ Ellis (04:43)

Thank

Andy Dawson (05:00)

Good.

Ben Williams - (05:03)

medication to rebuild and recover to then put me out the other side with a bigger purpose and meaning in life, which is to go back to coaching to help people not end up where I did. know, whether that's a high performer, a leader or someone who's just trying to find the next chapter in their life. That's, that's where I'm now helping people. And in that journey as well, I've written a book, Commando Mindset, which is aligned to exactly that.

Andy Dawson (05:29)

I've, um, I've had the pleasure of knowing Ben since 2018, 19, I think it was, I'll just scribble down here and what capacities have I known him. Um, you mentioned a lot of them, but I've gone dad, mate, confident, confidant, even entrepreneur, speaker, writer, um, and many other different guises. And we've never had a crossword. In fact, we've only ever had supportive words for each other. And it's been a

Ace Journey we've been on so far. But before we get too far into the podcast and about you, because it's not all about you, I just want to say the latest version of Ben Williams' co-Wit and Grit Live presenter come the 30th of January. So A, welcome to that team. And I guess the question everyone out there is going to be asking is, why the hell are you joining up with Dawson and PJ?

PJ Ellis (06:07)

Ha ha ha!

Ben Williams - (06:16)

Yeah?

I've always been a big fan of the Muppets.

PJ Ellis (06:30)

Hahaha!

Ben Williams - (06:30)

And yeah, so when I saw the branding, I was like, well, that seems apt. we met a few weeks ago and we were talking about ideas of working together or what to do, and the wit and grit stuff started coming up, there's a bigger affiliation for me with that. I've sort of built my career. I said I've built my career. My career, especially my time in the military was very much surrounded by a key

spirit or what we would translate as a value to the civilian world, which was cheerfulness in the face of adversity. And it's one of the big ones, right? It's the one that stands out to most of us when we leave, when we're in. There is a gallows humor. There's things you'll say within the four walls that you definitely wouldn't say in the civilian world whatsoever. you know, the crux of it was during the hardest situations, can you still

raise a smile and, and look to your left, look to the right, see one of the lads hanging out as much, if not more than you. And you can, yeah, you can find an opportunity to be like, Oh, can we see the humor in this? And that for me was what got us as Marines through some of the most difficult situations that I've ever been in, uh, in the military. And then I've seen it throughout kind of my entrepreneurial journey and running businesses and

And it's hard, right? And I think we're living in a world at the moment, which it is like elephant in the room. It's very doom and gloom. And the moment you find a positive thing to look at something will come and smash it to pieces and be negative. And I think people are lost. I feel Britain, we've maybe lost who we are as well from the sarcastic Brit, which is made up of all sorts of weird and wonderful people. and, seeing humor in a lot of what we're doing and more so

to your question around humor and business seems like a word that doesn't sit or align with it. Yet when you get so many people away from the boardroom and put beer or glass of wine in front of them and take away that kind of business connotation, you get a whole different person. And more often than not, it's a laugh. It's a joke. It's funny. It's just good to be around. And I think what you guys are trying to bring to life is you have to have grit in life and more so than ever probably at the moment.

but you have to be able to smile as well. And I think a lot of people are doing one, they're hustling, they're grinding, there's grit, but that's, that's also burning a lot of people out. And that's definitely where I found myself, which I'm sure we'll get onto, but there's not enough of the smile. There's not enough of the grit and not enough of the real authentic smile as well. there's a lot of people trying to put this mask on and I think that mask can actually be very damaging in our personal lives. So I think when you guys started a running the podcast and it

PJ Ellis (09:18)

I'm

Ben Williams - (09:22)

seem different, look different, you're talking about different things and you're trying to do it with a smile. So then coming to meet you guys recently and hearing more about the plans and then rusting up and ideas to do WittonCrit live. I like, I have to be part of this. Like what a great opportunity to put people in a room, make them feel inspired, make them or help them know, because they already do, that there is another room full of people who are willing to laugh at the crap stuff as much as they're

willing to dig in and I just lived and breathed that my whole life and I also understand that that's where I also let myself go over the last year or so and what led me to being in a very desperate dark place and I don't want people to go there. I don't want people to see that. So there was no option and if you said no to me I would have used my marine strength to muscle in on it.

Andy Dawson (10:14)

No.

PJ Ellis (10:14)

Marine strength. we'll talk about that in a bit. I'm sure there's some of that knocking about still. I'll echo those words around Andy, that energy we've got having you around, mate. Honestly, I'm so humbled in the fact that when me and Andy decided to set off on this conversation, well, certainly for me, a number of things have happened. We thought that this Witton-Grit conversation would be around young people, but actually the more we have these conversations,

Ben Williams - (10:37)

Mm.

PJ Ellis (10:39)

We all need it in our lives for a number of reasons. And to have someone like you that personifies that across loads of different experiences you've had in your life is a real privilege to us. So thank you, mate. And equally, mate, you know what? I don't want to turn this into a mutual appreciation society, but I've always been a big fan of Ben Williams and something, stay with me. I read the book and there's a scene in that book when you're, I think you've got your boot caught or something and you're hanging upside down, basically

ready to be shot, let's talk about it. And it just stuck with me that moment in what you were saying. And it does come back to that sort of sarcasm and finding that sort of fun in those moments. it's just really stuck with me, man. It's really helped me. So that journey that you're on at the moment about being transparent, it's really resonating with a lot of people. So fair play. Let's talk about that time in Afghan then. So my question is twofold. Sorry, Andy.

How did serving in Afghan shape the person you are today? And without going into too much of the detail around the politics, et cetera, would you suggest that kids need some sort of national service to, I don't know, that's clumsy language. know, who we need to put our kids in the army to get what you got out of it, if that makes sense. But start with that first, how did serving in Afghan shape you, mate?

Ben Williams - (11:56)

I think it is cliche as it sounds, you leave as a boy and you come back as a man, right? Yeah, I think, you know, and like you said, we won't touch on it. But politically, there'll always be opposition to why we would be in countries and there'd also be support for it, right? Years later, you find out what lessons are learned there. And at the end of the day, your job as a soldier, no matter what kind of

sort boots you feel and what role you do isn't there for that. You're not there for the political decisions that unfortunately is governed by other people. And fortunately, in other occasions, you're there to do a job. You know, and our job was there to, at the time I went was to disrupt the Taliban from certain areas, you know, their pattern of life and to support the local people with their own and try as best as we can to

Andy Dawson (12:28)

Thank

Ben Williams - (12:50)

keep the Taliban at bay away from the locations that we're trying to rebuild. There's a very hearts and minds operation and we had to very much lead on that front around there wasn't some strategy to go in and cause chaos. It was far more strategic and tactical and it evolved over the years. When I deployed we'd been, I think we'd been in Afghanistan eight, maybe even 10 years by that point.

kind of early stages of the invasion had happened. And that is a different level of fighting compared to when we went, which was much more around that security and protection of, of villages and the population there to keep them, you know, defended from the Taliban. But ultimately, you know, it does come down to who's left and right of you, not who you're doing it for. And

Andy Dawson (13:20)

Thank

Ben Williams - (13:41)

left and right of you were the guys that you've been through training with maybe or people which have been there before and to the point where you would willingly put your life down before you'd see harm come to them. It always sticks in my mind obviously but the first time I was ever ambushed and felt that ferociousness of enemy combat and gunfire I was on a wall with my mate who I'd started training with.

a year and a half before that. And we were in the same room in training together. And then when you pass out, everyone goes off into the wonderful world of the Marines and goes to different units and different troops and different places. And I ended up my mate, Damo, and there we are in our first contact together on the wall. And we even laughed about it going back to the wit and grit. And we were hidden behind a wall as the rounds were coming over our heads. And we laughed at each other. It made no sense. It was just

laughing and being present and working with people. And that's what it's about, right? It's about that relationship that you've got with people in those environments that are obviously extremely hard, if not impossible to replicate in any other walks of life. And naturally, operations changes you and, and that's part of what I've been going through in the last year or so I've been saving up these memories for quite some time storing it away, think it's not affected me. And then suddenly you realize when you're under a lot of pressure and stress, you're like,

Yeah, this has dramatically affected me. So there are the negative sides to what you can be burdened with, but ultimately how it changes you professionally as you grow as a Marine as well as those experiences have gone now. they carve you into who you are. think it's made me more appreciative of life as well. and definitely more present and aware of who I am, the fragility of what can suddenly be taken from you at a moment's notice.

PJ Ellis (15:07)

Mm.

Ben Williams - (15:28)

And it goes it right, it goes away and you forget that stuff and just walk the normal life again, and then it will come back and then it will remind you and then it will go away again. And I think it only now do I realize it's probably made me a far more emotionally intelligent person than I did when I or what I thought when I left. And that's important. And like I said, it took me out there as a young kid and I came back.

a man who I would grow into over time to be an entrepreneur, start business, write books and all that stuff. And, you know, it's one chapter that now helps other people, hopefully in their own.

Andy Dawson (16:06)

Just to pick up on the other part of PJ's question around national service, whatever. you know, you've chatted to my son Ben about life in the Royal Marines. I know a few of the friends, children who were thinking of a career in the armed forces. So for them, what would be the key strengths development areas they'd pick up from?

PJ Ellis (16:24)

Thank

Andy Dawson (16:27)

Serving in something like the Marines, because ex-military people are highly sought after speakers, aren't they? And kind of leadership people like your good selves. So what is it that, what are the key two or three things that people would benefit from going through serving the country?

PJ Ellis (16:36)

Thank

Ben Williams - (16:45)

I think resilience is an obvious one, isn't it?

resilience can be built in the military which and I'll come on to national service shortly actually because I'm a bit opinionated on this but maybe slightly different to what people would expect so The military if we're talking about that context for a second it'll give it will provide Experiences to say the least even in the training non-combative role

that will carve out resilience and it will put pressure test people, put people under difficulty and they'll learn about themselves both physically and mentally. And that's a really good ability. That's a really good characteristic to have, isn't it? Someone who's resilient. So I don't think enough is given to kids, especially mid to late teens. I even look at my own or my eldest who's just turned 12 and I'm like, had it pretty easy.

PJ Ellis (17:17)

you

Ben Williams - (17:40)

But not every walker life's like that. There's kids that grew up on deprived estates from more broken homes and things like that. So their resilience might be carved out more than my kid, for example, but from into the military, they're going to get a different exposure to situations they've never been in before that in that right coaching and mentoring environment as well that training now provides, they grow that resilience to be more robust mentally and physically. So that's a big one. Values and an ethos is the biggest.

PJ Ellis (17:55)

Yeah.

Ben Williams - (18:09)

or one of the biggest ones, like, you ask a kid what their values are, and they're going to look look at you and go boss I properly like most kids don't know what that represents, but they'll have an they'll have an understanding they'll have an idea of who they are. But values is a big thing. And I still live and breathe the values as a Marine now, ex former, not ex former as a Marine now to to still operate as I do, and to think as I do. But I think the

Biggest one for me is belonging and purpose. The, that's what I was looking for and I never had. And then I joined the military and I'm suddenly with these people, which are way better than me. They're excelling. They're hungry. They're ambitious. They're values driven. They're resilient. All these things, not just from recruits, but through to, you know, the most senior and in the roles. And that was cool. Right. That was cool to be something bigger than yourself.

Andy Dawson (18:53)

Thank

PJ Ellis (18:59)

Thank you.

Ben Williams - (19:05)

showed me what belonging purpose looked like and I think a lot of younger people are missing that belonging and purpose in life now and it's harder to come by because of the polarization that we're living in. When we talk about national service, I do agree that we should give every child exposure to what I call service, right? But I think it gets bottled up as

national service, join the army, it'll make a man or a woman out of you. And then you come back to the civilian world and carve you out for two years. And then we've got great people in society. But I think, actually, what we're missing is a generation of people who know how to give service, right? So service doesn't just doesn't just have to happen in the military. Is there something that we can build into the NHS? Is there something that we can build into the fire service, the police? Is there something we can build into local councils? know, everywhere that

Andy Dawson (19:56)

Thank you.

Ben Williams - (20:05)

there are organizations that serve the community. Can we bring younger people into those roles? Even if it's just for six months, for example, we do work experience two weeks at school a week, but it's shit. It's rubbish. Like I worked in a factory and I just printed stuff for a whole week. And I'm like, I've learned nothing about this. And I know it's still like that. And kids who don't want to do it just stay at school for the week. So it's kind of,

PJ Ellis (20:22)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ben Williams - (20:34)

What's the point? Yeah, it exposes you to a bit of work. That's about it. But what if we could expose people to service and if we could create more of a service ethos within the country, then what changes on the back of that? And I think that's the bit people wrap up in, or should they do frontline military service or national service? Like, well, give them service. National service just seems to be put into this military connotation. So I make it wider.

make it more accessible or make it more impactful and then see what generation comes behind that.

PJ Ellis (21:09)

Yeah, that's, mean, I'm bang on there. mean, Andy was talking about your boy. You've put him into, know, I know this is a tenuous link, but he's serving in his role at the moment. Isn't Andy and he's like part-time job. And you said like the things that are coming out of that, like the communication, team building, problem solving. I love that. We are missing a generation of people that might not be equipped to serve. Wow.

Ben Williams - (21:28)

Hmm.

PJ Ellis (21:33)

I mean, I am with that all day long. Let's move away from the marine stuff. I could talk about that all day. And I say move away, I'm gonna talk about marine stuff, but in a slightly different way. I know very similar to Andy, you start on your LinkedIn profile as dad, you know, that's one of your most important roles and titles. And I wanna start leading my life in that sense as well. As a dad Ben and an entrepreneur, I'm no doubt we'll talk about that when it comes to wellbeing, et cetera.

What do you think the Marines... What did it not prepare you for?

Ben Williams - (22:05)

having a daughter.

So yeah,

PJ Ellis (22:06)

I mean, I've got a deal with you, but I'll fill your party, You know.

Ben Williams - (22:09)

we had, sorry, Zach, Zach, happy birthday Zach. He was just like easy, right? This is tongue in cheek, I suppose. This is in line with the wit. He was easy. And he was like sleeping through the night at five weeks and he was eating solids and just, he was chill and he's been chill ever since. We've had 12 years of bliss. So a couple of years in, we're like, this isn't easy. I don't know what people are complaining about.

PJ Ellis (22:19)

Yeah, of course.

Ben Williams - (22:34)

Let's have another one. And then the other one came along and we've been pretty much flicking holy water on her for the last few years because she tests and she forms a whole different level of resilience. What did it not give me or prepare me for? The Marines and the military aren't there to prepare you for the civilian world, right? That's not the job. The job is to join, serve in the green suit, go where you're told to go.

and do what you need to do. There is a small off ramp.

And you make that what you want when you're leaving the military. Okay. So that's down to you. That's not going to be spoonfed. That's going to be self leadership there. I don't think I took that serious enough. And I just jumped into the, I'm just going to build a business, see what happens. and what the Marines or what I didn't learn, which I've learned outside is this awkward word about money. Right. So

When you, unless you're going to start a not for profit and you come outside and you're going to get a job or you're going to start a business, they're the only two options. You're either going to work or you're going to build something. we don't talk about money in the military most up until the point of when you're probably promoted to a corporal. You spent your wages by the weekend. You get paid it. We call it millionaires weekend for a reason and by

PJ Ellis (23:54)

Yeah.

Ben Williams - (23:54)

by Monday, you're back on rations. And everyone's like, has anyone got any money you can lend me for the rest of the month? Because the accommodation is solid, you got food, you don't have to worry, right? So you just spend it. And yeah, that gets people into different places in life, right? And then we don't really have any exposure around what budgets look like, or a P &L, for example, we don't talk about money, we don't, we don't

PJ Ellis (23:56)

Yeah, millionaires week.

Ben Williams - (24:23)

also learn how to transfer who and what we are into something that is of monetary value to a business, for example. So we leave and we go, I'm an excellent communicator. I can lead, I'm resilient. And we'll say those things in job interviews, for example, or I'll say those things in my business, maybe, but I haven't worked out how to transition that into a monetary value. So either how are you going to save or make money?

And that for me has been the hardest part of the journey to date. And, you know, I'm not a sales guy and I ended up in a tech company trying to sell software and it is so hard and every day you're trying to work it out and like, why are they buying into me, but they're not buying into this. And then you get lots of people advising you on how to do it and you should do this. You should do that. Like, I don't know how to do any of this stuff. and that's no one's fault, right? That's just my journey.

to finding out who I am now. And I'm quite happy to sit here and say, I'm not an enterprise salesperson. I can sell you some coaching and maybe I can sell you one of the things I work on in the background as a hobby. But maybe if I'm selling you a platform, I've learned in my life that that's not something that I can do any do. And I don't want to do maybe, but you don't get that civilian experience of, okay, show me how you'll save, make, or create revenue.

or money in a business. as much as it's something that I think a lot of us hide away from in the military, maybe not hide away strong, but don't understand, not exposed to, it's one of the biggest things that we need to get our heads around in order to be successful in the outside world. And, and, and just changing it slightly to what's the value I bring now that creates X money to the business. That's what we need to get better at doing. Now.

I'll end on the fact that the military doesn't need to do that for you, right? So there's no reason to expose you to that. But I would say in the last part of anyone's time in the military, they should be working out, okay, what's the monetary value I could bring to something or earn, because it is the number one metric in the civilian world, unfortunately.

PJ Ellis (26:17)

Thank you.

Mate, when you create that course, let me know, because I'll come onto that immediately. I'll sign up, I really will.

Andy Dawson (26:35)

Mm.

Ben Williams - (26:38)

Yeah,

yeah, I'll go to chat GPT afterwards. Create me this course.

PJ Ellis (26:46)

I've done it, I've done it, my honest to God. I'm still charting, still not charged enough. ⁓

Ben Williams - (26:48)

So, best mate.

Andy Dawson (26:52)

Just, just go back to that kind of vulnerability, which you've always, always shown. And I, know you've got, you know, a great founder story we've talked about in the past and you've got a big following and you're booking your pods and all that kind of stuff. So I think, ⁓ a lot of people who know you, listening to that today, that'll really help because there's still so much fake it till you make it. I mean, we're going to fake this live event until we make it right. It's reality.

Ben Williams - (27:13)

Yeah.

You

Andy Dawson (27:19)

It is absolute reality of life. And anyone who thinks there's a perfect roadmap to success is reading some sort of Dickens novel. cause it doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. You've got to surround yourself with great people. ⁓ just, just going back to, I think you said that the value, realize the value you bring now, knowing that you spend a bit of time with Gareth Southgate and the, the England football team. And I know that was a very, inspiring moment for you and you built some great connections there.

Ben Williams - (27:32)

Hmm.

Ahem.

Andy Dawson (27:47)

So just, could you just take us into that experience a little bit, what was involved and did that start to make you realize the value that you could bring to people outside of the military as well?

Ben Williams - (27:57)

Yeah, I was already involved in or not involved. I was already interested in the coaching and training space because that's what I was doing in my career at the time. I was taking recruits through training and seeing them evolve from this, as I said earlier, raw civilian into someone who's ready and deployable. And then I was beginning to work with the rehab troops as well. So those that had

either physically failed something, maybe that's injury or just not been fit enough through to professional failure, like they can't map read and they need a bit more time, or shooting or something like that. So I was, and that part in particular, where you step off the mainstream train of training and go more to the remedial stuff, I was quite interested in because you were actually having to coach people you they had had a setback, they'd left their troop in training, they were

thinking of quitting, they weren't fit enough, they weren't getting the map reading. So you'd have to coach them more than you would train them. So I was already interested in that. And then when I was serving at the Commando Training Center, one of the officers I knew said, to let you know, the England football team are coming down soon and we're looking at putting some of you guys on the team. Would you be interested in it? was like, yeah, Roger, get me on that thing.

Honestly, sadistically was the actual real reason. I was like, ⁓ weekend of thrashing millionaires and making these people who've been losing the World Cups and the Euros for so many years suffer under my command. So absolutely nothing but kind of authoritarian dictator leadership to make people suffer. But no, yeah, the opportunity came up. I was reading a few books at the time.

PJ Ellis (29:32)

BS.

Ben Williams - (29:38)

by Simon Sinek and I was quite interested in leadership and then the experience happened and it was quite surreal like the first night. So they came down from St. George's Park. They were going to fly down on helicopters, helicopters were going to pick them up but in true military fashion, the wind was up and they had to get on a Mark one coach personnel carrier and get driven down and didn't get that exciting start that they wanted. But yeah, they arrived at the training center and then came up to the

PJ Ellis (29:53)

Bye.

Ben Williams - (30:07)

Woodbury Common, which is actually near where live now, to spend a weekend with the Marines. And they were carved up into these groups. And I had a few of the support staff. had Fraser Forstow, I think, where's he at Spurs at the moment? then Harry Kane. was like, wow, bloody hell, I've got the England captain. And at first you're a little bit starstruck. And it is a bit like, oh, there's them.

PJ Ellis (30:24)

Okay, bye. ⁓

Ben Williams - (30:35)

And they're looking at us, I remember looking over and they're like, fuck, who are these guys? They just knew they were just gonna get rinsed for a weekend. And lads started picking them out, they're like, who's the Man United players? Right, where's Chelsea? They're just beating up whoever you could. It's a different side. Anyway, so, but it was one o'clock in the morning on the first night. It was a really nice starry evening as well, so it's just perfect, because if it rained, I think it would have just killed it off, to be honest.

PJ Ellis (30:40)

you

Ben Williams - (31:03)

And I sat there with a couple of the support staff and Harry, and we're drinking some hot chocolate that we'd made from our rations. We were just chatting, we were just chatting about normal stuff. And it was so, it's stuff that our ancestors used to do. They used to sit around the fire and tell stories and you're, I'm quite deep on this stuff. So maybe some of the other guys have been running around making people suffer, but I was sat there thinking.

God, these are two very different walks of life. You've got the Marines who think in certain ways, and then you've got these elite sports stars and the team that support them. But at that moment around the fire, we were just people, and we were just asking each other. And I asked Harry the question. was like, mate, what's it like? We're not all sat up straight and rigid, lying on the floor next to each other. It was a bit too over-romantic, actually, now think about it.

Andy Dawson (31:55)

Sounds good.

Ben Williams - (31:56)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we were sharing a little ration pack together. Yeah, candles, yeah, little violin in the background. And I asked him, was like, mate, what's it like to score in front of so many people and like wheel away and celebrate? And I, it was that right moment where he wasn't going to give me a media press response, he was going to give me a genuine response. And he gave me this amazing

Andy Dawson (32:00)

candles.

Ben Williams - (32:18)

You could feel the way he was talking about what it's like to school for your country and run with your arms out in front of a corner of fans, you know, screaming with excitement. I remember just like, wow, that's that I felt it wasn't like he's talking to a camera and we were talking about it. And then he paused for a minute and then he asked, he said, he asked me a question of what it's like to be in combat.

And the way he asked the question is he genuinely cared. And I think with a lot of these elite high performers, you never really see the other side to him. You see that one way, press has asked a question and, they answer it, right. And they answer it in a particular way, as you can all tell, they've been trained to answer it, but we were having a conversation and he was telling me about his areas of elite performance. And I was talking to him about my own and, that's what first sort of started it for me where I thought,

There's stuff that we do as Marines, which isn't the running around getting wet and miserable. It's the values based decision-making. It's the ethos. It's the belonging. It's the doing stuff in the shadows when no one's looking that creates that high performance when everyone's watching. And we were discussing these different elements of high performance, which really, really stuck with me. And we've kept in contact since, you know, just as he went to buy and I sort of stopped badgering him.

But yeah, he's one of those people that I know I could bump into in the future and we just sort of pick it up again. And again, a long winded way of answering it, but in answer to the question, it was picking up on how people talk about elite performance from a different world and realizing how I could probably convey ours to theirs. And that's where that sport gap came from. And then if you look at any...

I care for the word successful, but high flying CEO or leader, you look at their bookshelves, you will find rugby books, football books, military books, more often than not, 70 % of their bookshelf is military and sport. So there's an affiliation there. There's, there's an interest there. And that's where I started to piece it together a little bit for me, which led me into being able to speak, I think more authentically to, to corporate, which

some of what I do again now is speaking to those managers and leaders around, okay, what does values based decision making really look like? What does high performance look like? What does a corporate athlete actually look like? And doesn't just do core to core to core to core. You know, they've got rest built in, they're doing time for their family for themselves. So yeah, that's, that's what kind of led me on the new version of me with what I do with Be Willing Coaching.

PJ Ellis (34:44)

Hmm. ⁓

we should sit around the fire more and tell stories. I love that. You've got candlelight, hot chocolate, starry night. I've actually seen the photographs of you dragging Raheem Sterling through the mud, mate. So it wasn't all beautiful, poignant conversations. And I need to change my books as well, because my bookshelf is just the Viz comic and Beano and Dambi. need more leadership books.

Ben Williams - (35:06)

Yeah, that was suffering.

Andy Dawson (35:15)

Thank

Ben Williams - (35:15)

See, you know, it's really

interesting that she made that point, right? So you said, Rahim getting dragged through the mud. There was a point made before we did the set. So during the planning phase where we weren't just going to be instructors, we were going to do it all with them. So as you can imagine, this is England football team coming around. It's like the whole entourage was there from our side and their side, every kind of officer who was going back to their house at night. But there was only a few of us who were camping out in the field.

And there was only a few of us with their each section. So mine with Harry and Fraser and those guys in it, there's about six sections. And we got in the mud, we did all the crawling around, we did all the assault courses with them, because we believe that you don't tell people what to do. I'm not going to ask you to do something if I can't myself first do it.

Andy Dawson (36:02)

Yeah.

Ben Williams - (36:03)

And that was a really important thing. And we also all put our phones in the safes with theirs and no one had access to communication. So it was a bit like we're in this with you, but we're going to show you our side of how we do things. We didn't want it to just be a thrashing where we're just making them suffer and just hands on hips, fatigues. And that's not what it's about. So there is a, there was an importance that even when it got rainy and we call it shared adversity. And that's why I think a lot of us have kept those relationships alive since is.

We all share a story there that not many other people can say they've got. And I'll tell you this quickly. was a right outside the commando training center. There's a foot golf, football golf, you know, the big, you you kick a ball around and get it in. So it's like a kind of bit of a louty thing, turn up for a stag do whatever, tick it off. And then you go off into town and you got the country lane that comes down and that leads from where we were coming from on the right hand side. You've got the

Andy Dawson (36:46)

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (36:47)

Yeah, yeah.

Ben Williams - (37:01)

the Commando Training Center car park and on the left you've got this foot golf. We're all in green, everyone's in the military combat fatigues, carrying bags, everyone's got cam cream on, we're all looking disheveled, wet, muddy, we just spent a whole night out in the field and then done one of our assault courses. And I was running at the front as a traffic guide and I was running with my mate Charlie. Now as we were running by the foot golf car park, there was four lads in there.

genuinely wearing England shirts and there was like Kane written on the back of one of them. One of them had their own name and they're all looking out to where they're about to play football. They come running by and I said to Charlie, I was like, I bet they ain't got clue what's running by behind them. And they, all of them turned around, all four of them, they turned around, they had a little bottle of beer in their hands. They watched what they thought was just a big troop of recruits running by, which is quite normal around there. They kind of looked, they're a bit inquisitive.

And then they turned back around to look at the foot golf. I was like, they've got no idea that Harry Kane, Johar, Raheem Sterling are all running behind them. It was surreal, to say the least.

PJ Ellis (38:09)

That

is crazy.

Andy Dawson (38:10)

What was the debrief with the, I presume you did one, the debrief after the exercise and kind of did you get a, what did they take away from it? What was the impact of that event?

Ben Williams - (38:14)

Mm.

So,

so Gareth's ambition was to attribute, I'm still sworn to secrecy on this one, was to attribute a value to each line. So Gareth's grandfather was a Royal Marine and so the Royal Marines are quite etched in his life anyway and he is quite a military enthusiast. And so Gareth joined a thinking

early 2017 and they were with us in the summer, maybe he was slightly earlier than that. But what England suffered with was when they turned up St George's Park in the camp, they turned up as Manchester United, they turned up as Chelsea, they turned up as Spurs and they would literally sit on these tables where it would be Man United and would be this. And part of that's good, right, because it kept that competitiveness alive in the Premier League. But what Gareth wanted to achieve was a one, a unity.

And his belief was from what he saw with his grandfather around what he embodied as a Royal Marine with the core values of who we are, courage, determination, unselfishness, cheerfulness, face first, all of that, that he believed that England could have something like that. So the idea was no longer about putting on your shirt for the country, which is a pride thing and that was spoken about. The idea was you were putting on three core values that

what it meant to be an England player and what that meant for your high performance. And I know they still up until when he left recently, they were still talking about the experience up till then. So we had a debrief. It was really, really interesting. It was a Champions League final. So we watched a Champions League final with them on a Saturday night, which was again, weird. we're, I can't go into too much detail about what happened that evening. But yeah, the things took place and the gates were closed, but we,

we let our hair down to say the least and we watched, we let our hair down whilst watching the Champions League final with some of the most professional football players in the world. That was surreal in itself. But again, that was a bonding process. This is what we do as Marines. We share that adversity, but we also share that social together. And then in the morning we did a debrief, which was around how, it was basically classroom based with the whiteboards around how these values underpin our decision making in some of the

most hostile environments and situations on earth. And that was the kind of final part of that, that solidified this kind of you've been captured, we're going to put you into sort of horrible situations, but we're going to do it with you, which enforces that values belief system, that leadership, we're going to socialize together, and then we're going to debrief of how you can use this moving forward. And that's where they agreed the three lines would have a value each. But if you remember, Gareth used to do this hand signal on his head.

that happened in a I've got a picture of it. It's blurry, so I won't be able send it to you. But he actually established it in that room there, which I think is pretty cool. And they took that away with them. and, that's, that's the beauty of it is that they continue to talk about it. This started to represent something it, it brought people back to the values in the Marines. We wear flashes that say, Royal Marines commando written on the side and they and it says, we have a saying called check your flashes.

Andy Dawson (41:14)

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (41:15)

Bye.

Ben Williams - (41:35)

And check your flashes means remind yourself of the values that you stand for. And that instantly checks you back in. Like the first combat scenario I ever got involved in when we were ambushed, I jumped in the ditch and kind of hid away thinking, what the fuck is this stuff all about? Popped my head up and everyone else had done the same thing. And our corporal was on the track and all he shouted was check your flashes. He didn't need to say go left. He didn't need to say go right. He didn't need to say climb out the ditch. He just said, remember who you are as Marines.

And that brings you into the fight. And it was that head tapping that I Gareth took with him that represented that signal for what the values meant. So when you looked across at Gareth and you're on the pitch and we're on the 85 minute and we're hanging out and maybe we were one-nil down that one little head tap to calm things down, remind the players of the values was accentuated across the pitch. And, and that's what they took from, you know, working with us. And I know he, I know,

well documented that they attribute it to that. And that is the power of it. Something that I think can sometimes get lost in other organizations, which is another topic for another day maybe.

PJ Ellis (42:45)

Fair play, mate. That's absolutely profound. That's so, honestly, I could listen to that all day. I've had a, well, not similar at all, but the only sort of, I got close to that, I suppose, that experience with one of our previous guests on this pod, Andy Wilkinson. went on a two-day army retreat and we lay out under the stars and actually really stayed with us, that experience. I mean, it was nowhere near as cool as that, but it was good. Your-

Andy Dawson (42:54)

Thank you.

Ben Williams - (43:08)

Mm.

PJ Ellis (43:13)

You're brave. think that's the right word. I mean, clearly brave in the sense of serving our country, which we're grateful for. Stupid, brave. Well, I don't know the same words, aren't they, to a point? You're brave enough to bend, break and rebuild. You know, that's what I'm seeing. ⁓ How are you rebuilding at the moment,

Ben Williams - (43:18)

Stupid, my wife calls it.

and

Hmm.

War, good question. I think many people, including myself, have been walking around for many, years wearing masks and those masks become really tiring to wear after a while. And I think I've worn a mask for probably near 16 years now where because I've been a Marine, people think certain things of you, there's a stigma. You know, I do have.

the most amazing biceps and a lot of tattoos, of course, I do try and live to the image. And I have shaved my head in order to continue that very. Yeah, yeah, I try. I saw the first time I saw PJ, I was like, I need to look like that guy. ⁓ I got a long way ⁓ to go. But yeah, there's obviously a stigma attached to that. And with that, people think you're as mentally robust as you are physically.

PJ Ellis (44:04)

You do?

Andy Dawson (44:08)

We're like PJ.

PJ Ellis (44:12)

Here we go mate. Yeah, you don't. Trust me.

Andy Dawson (44:17)

Yeah.

Ben Williams - (44:27)

Then when I first started coaching after leaving the Marines, think underneath I was like, do I feel a bit of a fraud here? I don't feel like I fully sorted myself out. I'm trying to tell people to do stuff that I'm not actually maybe doing myself. And that lasted a bit. And then I moved into co-founding loop in the van and then.

I've just never felt such a huge amount of imposter syndrome before where you feel like you should be putting on a front like everything's fine. Nothing's on fire where you really know you're down to the last embers and you're just lying face down. And so I've gone on this journey to the point where I broke myself. I didn't want to break myself whatsoever, but that's where I found myself in January this year, completely broken. I didn't want to be here anymore. And it's a

dark story in itself and what what's helped me rebuild is the only time I can actually really authentically say that's what true bravery is is the bravery to speak up the combat the the the operations you know that's inbuilt bravery that you do as part of who you are as a marine and you're scared right you're scared when people trying to kill you you're scared

Bravery to start a business, yeah. Maybe pull some of that down to naivety, more than bravery and excitement. But the truest form of bravery I think I've ever admitted to is the bravery to speak up and say, this isn't the right decision. I have two children, I have a wife. This isn't decision for me. actually in order to solve the problem that I face at the moment, I need to be open and honest about what I am. And that is...

maybe I don't want to do this part of business anymore. It's crippling me. I'm not happy who I am as a person. I've lost my meaning. And a huge one, my therapist, Natasha still works on me a lot with his self-compassion. Like it takes bravery to have self-compassion and men especially not to stigmatize it with three guys on the call. know, obviously not saying women don't have it at all, but men don't have self-compassion at all. we're...

Andy Dawson (46:26)

Yeah.

Ben Williams - (46:38)

And I don't mean as a broad term where I'm talking about everyone, but if I was to say it as a kind of whole percentage, men aren't self compassionate. And especially guys that I think reach our ages where we have family, maybe we own businesses, we have roles, might be seen as the provider that we should be something. So then we put that mask on. And for me, the most powerful part of the journey so far has been learning to take the mask off and be in some cases,

distastefully honest about certain things where if it turns you off, we're not meant to be in the same circles, right? If you resonate with it, then maybe there's something in there that we can connect on and work together. And that's what I found extraordinarily empowering. And finally, in the first time in 16, maybe longer than that, I've felt myself.

Andy Dawson (47:31)

That amazing story, mate. I think it's Rick Rubin, the music guru. I think he posed a great question. I think it was him. And he said, it's about self-compassion. Would you take yourself for a beer? Would you take yourself for a beer? Do you like yourself that much or not? And I must admit at times the answer's yes. And at times for all of us, the answer's probably no. And I think that just that bit of self-realization.

PJ Ellis (47:56)

Thank

Andy Dawson (47:59)

is incredibly empowering. I know it's empowered you to now kind of kind of move on, hasn't it? And start to do some different things and you will be immensely successful. And you've got plenty of people champion you along that way. But where do we find you today then?

Ben Williams - (48:15)

I'm just going to go back a step quickly, just really quickly, because it leads onto that answer to that question. But it's that interesting word around success again, right? Immensely successful. I think I've, I've measured immense successes, maybe in monetary value, security and the bank and all that stuff. And actually I cleared out the shed at the weekend and started up my little side hustle away from coaching, which is repurposing military kit, which I told you guys about.

PJ Ellis (48:21)

Thank you.

Thank you.

Ben Williams - (48:42)

before we came on air and actually adding

artwork to the Commando dagger and things like that. I cleared out the shed and I spent hours in it the weekend and I was happy and I had music playing and the dog would wander in every now and then and sit by my feet and the kids would pop in and be like, can I have a go with it? And I'd let them have a go and then I'd fuck them off because they're in the man cave so they need to leave quite quickly. But I was like,

PJ Ellis (49:04)

Thank

Ben Williams - (49:08)

I was like, this feels so purpose led. I'm doing something that I can, you know, I could make a little bit of money out of it, but I'm not trying to scale it into something massive. I've got my coaching that I'm building and we're all got to look for revenue. There's still stress that's around and that's just part of the game, right? But maybe more aligned to who I am now, I get to do that. And the stress feels more of value to me than, and something I can put up more with.

I had that reflection moment sat in the shed at the weekend, just like, this is cool. Like I'm enjoying what I'm doing here. Anyone interested? Silentvalor.co.uk. Go and check it out. Plug. Silentvalor.co.uk. It's very niche, you'll see. But yeah, I'll do the other plug for my actual other business at the end. yeah, to your point, mate, it's

PJ Ellis (49:45)

What was that again? Silent what mate? Bala.

Ben Williams - (49:56)

It's standing next to the treadmill and allowing it to go at top speed and just sort of smiling at it and going, I don't need to be on you right now. And like I said, there are pressures. You've still got to work out how to pay the mortgage here and there and all that stuff. But like I said, the stress feels, I wouldn't say worth it because every part of the stress that I think I've been on up till now.

with the Marines, with looping, stuff I've done in the past has all been worth it. It's carved me into a character of who I am now that allows me to go into my next chapter. And I'm massively appreciative of everyone who's been on that journey with me, you know, from the Marines to customers, to investors, to mentors. None of it is not worth it, right? But I've chosen now a path that I feel more comfortable professionally growing something that

I can control, also wake up and smile and think, do you know what? I'm just going to paint a dagger today. I'm not going to do anything else. And it not feel like a huge burden. I feel guilty about it. Do the school runs. like PJ pointed out that Andy, you and I do through LinkedIn is, okay, I'm to go to a school run today. Like, it's not my turn, but I want to go and see Layla when she comes out. I'll go pick Zach up here about his day. And we're going to go and just kick a ball somewhere and not feel guilty about it. Um,

And that's who I am today. And I absolutely love coaching people again. It doesn't feel like work. The only work bit is trying to find them and then sending an invoice and making sure I don't mess my admin up, which I'm absolutely terrible at. I get all those bits wrong. But sitting down and hearing people talk about what they're facing right now and where they enter the call or the meeting is feeling broken. If you can leave them feeling like there is light and actually

I'm looking at from the wrong angle and I'm this person, not this person. I've been framing it wrong and just getting them to change their own beliefs about how they're looking at things is just one of the best things to do. an hour 90 minutes flies by and I just won't stop doing that now.

PJ Ellis (52:05)

of that.

Andy Dawson (52:05)

Last couple of thoughts from me. Firstly, you just made me think of a quote. Just seeing how much more comfortable you are in your own skin is great for me to see as a friend. But there's a lovely little quote I other day is, don't take criticism from someone you wouldn't take advice from. And I think we all are very guilty of that, we? But basically live your own blooming life, run your own race. And that's, that's giving you a much more chance of finding happiness.

⁓ and I think the good news here, there's so much more we could have talked about, but we're not, we're not a Stephen Bartlett or Joe Rogan five hour podcast. and people will be able to hear you talk, hear you talk at Witton, grit live 30th January at Millennium Point. so I look forward to, I'd look forward to that as well, but yeah, it's been a pleasure, pleasure having you on PJ. Final thoughts.

Ben Williams - (52:41)

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (52:54)

Matt, he's already done the Stephen Bartlett podcast. He doesn't wanna do another one, do you know what mean? One of the early adopters there. Check it out if you haven't.

Ben Williams - (53:00)

They're a long

push actually, hour or two hours you're like, my god.

PJ Ellis (53:04)

But what a privilege, mate, to be one of those first people that he has to do, man. It's all down to you, really. He owes you some license fees or whatever.

Ben Williams - (53:12)

Yeah, like when

Matty McConaughey was on the other day, was like, they've only got me to thank for that.

PJ Ellis (53:17)

100 % mate. Basically

Andy Dawson (53:17)

See my feet.

PJ Ellis (53:19)

you and Matthew McConaughey are best mates. I'm just looking at that Silent Valor, mate. Looks amazing. The Commando comic, the Spartan, the Commando raid, the Herrick. What's a Herrick? What's that?

Ben Williams - (53:21)

Yeah.

Herrick is the code name is it the operational name for the tours in Afghanistan. So Iraq was Tehlik. then yeah, Afghan terror.

PJ Ellis (53:39)

I love that, mate.

They look fantastic. Honestly, yeah, mean, conversation that will definitely stay with me that Ben, thank you. And a conversation I look forward to sort of elaborating at Witton Grid live, A few takeaways from me, Firstly, I'm glad you spoke up and I'm sure Zach and Layla and your wife is one of that LinkedIn post that you put out, recently of the potentially last photograph. Nah, nah, that's stuck with me.

and it will stay with me forever. I'm grateful to you for that. Thank you. But doing things for people who are left and right of you, that shared adversity piece, check your flashes. I'll be missing a generation of people that might not be equipped to serve. Are the kids missing that value framework that is so important to you and definitely important to me?

Tell more stories, let's sit around the fire, let's sit in the mud with one another as often as we can. Great things come from that. Not necessarily always running down a lane with Harry Kane, but certainly great things will come. And the bravery, you know what? Yeah, 100 % mate. And the bravery it takes to have that self-compassion. I really do think that's a bang on point, which I'll certainly take forward with me. Ben, as I said, conversation will stay with me for some time.

Ben Williams - (54:39)

We can make things happen.

PJ Ellis (54:55)

So grateful for you jumping on the pod, mate.

Ben Williams - (54:58)

Thanks for having me on guys, appreciate it.

Ben Williams - (55:00)

I absolutely didn't plug what I actually do. So let's do it really formally. If you would like to connect with me, please feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. Just search for Ben Williams. And those of you that might be looking for inspiration or wanting to find an extra edge or level up through coaching, you can find me at www.bwcoach.co.uk. Thank you.

PJ Ellis (55:03)

Yeah, well you know.

Thank

Thank you

Ben Williams - (55:24)

and enjoy the podcast.

PJ Ellis (55:24)

Benj. There we go mate.

Andy Dawson (55:25)

Well, as that proves, definitely

not for inspirational speaking.