1, 2, 3, 4.

Hello, and welcome to beyond the Desk, the podcast where I take a deep dive into the careers of some of the most influential and inspiring leaders in the technology transformation and operations space within global insurance and insurtech.

I'm your host, Mark Thomas, and every week I'll be sitting down with industry trailblazers who are driving innovation and modernization within the insurance sector.

We'll explore their personal journeys, from their early backgrounds and the pivotal moments that shape their careers to the challenges they've had to overcome, the lessons they've learned along the way, and of course, the big wins that have defined their professional journey so far.

But it's not just about their successes.

It's about what you and I can take away from their experiences and the advice they have.

For anyone wanting to follow in similar footsteps.

Whether you're just starting out or looking.

To level up your career in the insurance or insurtech world, this podcast is packed with valuable insights and inspiration.

So grab your headphones, get comfortable, and let's jump into beyond the Desk.

Sally, welcome to the podcast.

How you doing?

Very good, thank you.

How are you?

Yeah, I'm really good, thanks.

Thanks for making some time.

I know we've been feeling like we've been trying to do this for about two years or something, something like that, but we got.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we got, we got it.

We got it all sorted eventually.

So best place to start.

Why don't you tell me and the listeners who Sally is and what you do right now and then we'll go right back to the start and work from there.

Fab.

So I'm Sally Ng and my surname is literally the two letters Ng.

It doesn't stand.

I've always wondered that, actually.

I should have asked you.

It doesn't stand for anything and I think, like, sometimes it looks a bit like a typo, doesn't it?

Just.

I feel like it's missing a few letters or something.

But no, it's just Sally and G.

I.

I am currently working at rsa.

I'm the change in technology delivery director working in the CIO area.

And my job is basically about doing the big scale, kind of like strategic transformation, as well as running all the systems that support the business day to day.

Nice.

So like I said, we're going to go right back to the start.

My first question is always that I'm really interested in is how did you.

Were you into technology and stuff like that at a really young age as a kid?

Like, what did.

What did the.

What did the early days look like, and, and then, and then kind of.

How did that evolve from there?

Well, early days.

Well, I was actually born in Hong Kong.

Okay.

I moved over to the UK when I was about 11 or so.

Okay.

Not really knowing how to speak a word of English.

Well as a lot I know how to say my name is Ali, this is a pen or something.

But I really don't like, don't really know any English at all.

And my parents, you know, they, they're not really from a strong, you know, academic kind of background.

I would say grew up pretty kind of like normal, but I don't really remember too much because it's a bit of a black hole to me.

Yeah.

Where did you come to in the UK when you first came here?

London.

I actually moved to Greenwich.

Right.

You know, so I grew up there, went to a school where me and my sister were the only Chinese in the whole school kind of thing.

So, you know, you kind of got thrown into the deep end.

You could like, you need to learn to survive.

And I guess you pretty much went to secondary school kind of straight away, did you?

Yeah, yeah.

So kind of very different education culture than Hong Kong because it was very, very strict.

Right.

In Hong Kong.

In Hong Kong was.

And you know, in the UK I went to just a normal kind of like, you know, school in, in Greenwich and it was just so different.

It was so relaxed and the, the education system is just different.

Yeah.

So, but yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say I've been into technology, you know, since at all.

In fact, I wanted to be an artist.

So I really loved, I love the kind of like creative side of things, whether it is like painting, drawing, sculpture or musical side of things.

Really love like that side.

And yeah, I didn't really think about having a career in technology at all.

So how did that, how did that evolve from there then?

When was the first kind of sign of you potentially?

Did you go to university and do that kind of thing as well?

Yeah, so after.

So I've kind of like gone through my A levels and all that kind of stuff and I literally had my heart set on joining London Central St Martin's Art School and like just wanted to have a career in doing something fun, doing something creative.

Right.

I think back then, if I remember correctly, it was just, you know, my family's financial situation wasn't great and I kind of had had one of those grown up moments, let's say, and realized that being an artist or something like that, it's not going to really give us the St that we need.

So I kind of like really just gone around in my brain just like, okay, what else do I enjoy?

What else do I like doing?

So I'm kind of like, okay, I am creative but I'm also really curious.

I like problem solving and I'm also really bloody stubborn.

Yeah.

So I love doing things when people tell me that I can.

So, you know, technology male dominated kind of environment.

So to win out in that kind of environment just felt like a good challenge to have.

So I changed my degree degree to do a business information systems management degree.

So when you say change, did you start doing the arts?

No.

So we applied.

So we kind of like, you know, you, you kind of, you know, after eight of us so long ago, now you apply to the university and all that kind of stuff.

It literally last minute, I think I went through what they call the clearing process.

Yeah, yeah, I remember that.

Yeah, yeah, the clearing process.

And I just change course, change university.

And then like, you know, just like, right, you know, let's do something more practical.

So you say you did business management, did you?

Business information systems.

I remember that, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it's a bit of a combination, you know, business management as well as IT sort of things.

Yeah, yeah.

I did business and marketing.

So it was kind of like the other end of the spectrum.

But there were people that, around my area of university that did that kind of stuff.

So university then.

So.

And what did that look like as kind of first job?

What was the kind of first foray outside of, outside of university education into industry.

So as a part of my course, actually we had a placement year.

It wasn't so popular back then, but my course, luckily I had one of those.

So I did my placement year at LOYS tsb.

Okay.

It was that long ago when it was still Lois.

TSB and I worked in their changing conflict management function as a part of it.

And I swear I kind of walked out there.

I loved it.

I had one of my best years doing that placement.

Met so many amazing people and the experience was just amazing.

And I walked out of them just like, I want to be PMO for life.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Is that the role that you did while you were there then?

Well, I don't.

You do like kind of a few.

I did a four year course at university.

I changed my course after a year so I ended up missing out on that sandwich, which I was.

I'm actually a bit gutted about.

But the, my understanding is you do like kind of two or three months in different roles.

And you move around a bit and try different things.

Is that kind of the general gist of how it works?

I kind of remember we.

I was only in one department, but I'd done an extended period, so I think we were only supposed to do nine months, but I extended to, like, a full year, so.

But through.

During.

Within that department, obviously had the experience, had the opportunity to try out different things within that department.

And I think, like, you know, pmo, you know, was one of.

One of those elements of it.

And the law CSB used to run a bit of a curriculum as well.

So you kind of like.

So I had the added.

It's a bit like Prince 2.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

So kind of like took advantage of that and learned so much of a lot of just like, I love this.

Yeah, yeah.

So when I finish uni, I just like, okay, I don't need to look any further.

I want to be pmo.

So I joined Accenture, but not as the grad scheme, because I know I want to be.

I knew I wanted to be pmo.

Right.

Because I guess the grad scheme is similar in the sense you do a variety of things to figure out what you want to do.

I don't need to figure that out anymore.

I've got to.

All sorted.

So like, signed up to do PMO for life.

Yeah.

And et cetera.

And then.

And then my first assignment, funny enough, was rsa.

Wow.

Okay.

So kind of like gone full circle right now.

So my very first client was rsa, and then started Accenture.

Used to be really, I remember, kind of 20 years, 15, 20 years ago, Accenture had a really big deal with RSA, didn't they?

Yeah, yeah.

I think anyone, like most people who worked in tech and in the insurance industry that was in consulting would have had some sort of fingerprint in that.

But that was a fantastic opportunity.

And just like, it's so funny because I started out in the basement of the Manchester York street office.

I feel like I climbed up the ladder.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Now you're quite high up in Bishopsgate.

Like, literally worked my way up from the basement.

Yeah, yeah.

But I think, like, so when I.

When I joined.

When I joined that account, when I joined RSA back then, you know, doing PMO stuff.

Brilliant.

You know, first real big project experience.

I think within about nine months or less.

It'll be less than nine months.

I'm just, like, started to get really curious about other roles.

I mean, it was such a massive program.

It's got lots and lots of opportunities.

So I Kind of go, you know what, I actually fancy trying something else.

So I've kind of gone from PMO to doing a testing role.

Yeah.

And then a test lead role and then doing functional design and then doing business analysts and then doing like project manager.

And this is all still Accenture rsa.

Not all of them.

So it's all Accenture.

I moved around from different clients, different projects, so I kind of get my, my feet start to get a bit itchy.

Yeah.

After about 9 to 12 months or so.

That's the usual time span.

Yeah.

So then you try something different.

Yeah.

Well, is it all insurance?

They're all insurance.

I think I have one gig that was in banking and that's about it.

But the rest of it, they were all insurance.

Different insurance clients, different projects, which I really enjoyed because that's kind of part of the beauty of being in consulting, isn't it?

You get to try so many different things.

Yeah.

You get like that learning curve which is like so steep.

Yeah.

But yeah, just like worked my way through the different, you know, stages of the delivery life cycle through.

Whether you're talking about new business implementation or business transformation or migration, you know, all different kinds of projects, which is super interesting.

Yeah.

So.

So how long did you end up staying at accenture?

For over 10 years.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

Yeah, so I was there for quite a while.

Yeah.

I mean there's definitely, we'll definitely get into it in a bit, but there's a, there's a real common theme.

The people you mean.

I don't know how many people I've interviewed now for 40, 50 maybe.

And, and so many of the senior people started off in some kind of consulting and that, and that, that breadth of experience that you get and the variety of project definitely seems to kind of set you up for, for, for what, what might come in the, in the future in more senior roles where naturally the positions are longer.

You have to stay, stay for longer to deliver stuff and, and all that kind of thing.

But, but it sounds like you did quite a different projects, different environments and to kind of build you up over that 10 years.

Absolutely.

It was an amazing training ground.

Yeah.

You know, forever grateful for all those opportunities because I can't really imagine another kind of like situation where I'll be able to learn that much in that, in that relatively short space of time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because I guess if you could have gone to work for RSA directly, you probably would have done two, maybe two or three different roles in that, in that kind of ten year period.

So what did, what, what made you move from there and what did the next step look like?

So I kind of like got to a stage in Accenture and, you know, the more senior you get to in the consulting world, your objectives kind of starting to evolve a little bit.

The focus tend to be much more sales driven, which is, you know, the model.

Fair enough.

And I start.

I didn't really on purposely look for opportunity.

Just like it just came about at QB Insurance.

Okay.

So QB was doing a big global transformation at a time and you know, they're just like, you know, what do you fancy jumping across and take on the, you know, global, like, you know, transformation program manager role?

I'm just like, well, that sounds really interesting.

And it was just that moment when I kind of go, okay, am I prepared to let go of everything that I know?

And being in this big, massive mothership and having that safety blanket almost, isn't it?

You know, when you're with that kind of a big firm, you're never really alone because you have such a massive support network around you.

You have so many kind of like resources that you can tap into.

I'm just like, I was.

I was really drawn to the QV opportunity.

Yeah.

Because it sounds really exciting.

And also what kind of put me off a little bit from staying within extensions is like that level of, you know.

Right.

You've got to chase after sales.

And I really wanted to focus on delivering outcomes.

And you know, and not to say that the two things doesn't go together, but I just definitely lean more towards like, you know, I want to try something different.

And so I made a jump into.

Into the industry and never really looked back.

So did.

Because I.

I remember when we spoke before you.

The, The QB event did.

Was there a point where you went back into consulting for a short period or something like that?

No.

No, no, no.

Okay.

You say I took a break from insurance and just from delivery side of things.

I took a short break from there.

I was at QB for about five years, and after five years, I basically decided that, you know, what, before become.

Become.

Become a liver.

Right.

You know what I mean?

Right.

You know, most people get into insurance.

You kind of somehow landed in it and you never get out.

Yeah, this is that.

This is it.

I remember you telling me about it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah, just decided that before I become a liver, I just wanted to take a break from it all.

So I actually joined DXC Technology.

But nothing to do with technology delivery.

Definitely nothing to do with insurance.

That was part of my Deal.

I was actually chief of staff there for the president of the EMEA region.

And that has been a super interesting role and I kind of like gave me that time to really reflect what is it that I really wanted to do.

And you know, DXC covers so many different industry and that's part of the reason why I joined them as well.

And just like I would have options like to explore if I choose to.

Yeah, but it was just funny, I mean like, you know, it didn't take too long before I really started like missing insurance.

But that's, that's a, that's a really interesting point there I think because obviously you, you spent what sounds like 99% of your time, apart from a short foray into a banking gig in, in, in insurance, made the move into industry to do the kind of bigger.

It sounds like that's like the first kind of big chunky role that you, you did there.

And that obviously went well.

And then to take a, to almost kind of take that step back and think actually there's a, that maybe I might want to do something else.

And, and I don't want to kind of pigeonhole myself completely into that book because I guess if you'd have spent, made the move and done another five, seven, eight years at RSA or wherever, then you kind of, that's what you do.

You're an insurance person.

So how long did you do the chief of staff role?

For about three years.

Okay.

So for quite a while.

Through like Covid period as well.

Yeah.

Okay.

How did you find that?

Because I think that there's definitely, certainly obviously in my line of work there's been a rise in the kind of chief of staff role.

And I mean I always think for someone who is, who is kind of of on their way up and, and wants to kind of to get some good exposure, I think it seems to me like a really great role.

Like huge amount of variety.

Lots of, lots of exposure to some, some normally, some, some quite senior people.

Did you, is that, is that what the role kind of was?

It was a, it was a, it was a kind of a doer for whoever the guy was.

I mean it was such an amazing experience.

I always tell people that outside of being the CEO.

Yeah, you don't really get that many roles that give you that full visibility in terms of how the whole organization operates.

So it is really an eye opening experience.

You know, you literally get some really in depth insight in terms of how the company strategy is set.

Like how does that get translated into, you know, you see things on the press or, you know, as an employee, you see things happening all the time.

Right.

Just like these things came from corporate and like, you know, but, but do you ever wonder how that came about?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, totally.

So actually being in that position, like, you know, it gave you full vis.

Gave me that full sense of visibility and influence around.

Okay, how can we actually shape some of these, how do we operationalize some of these things?

And you literally have endless access.

Yeah, exactly.

To pretty much anything.

And it's just like, and like I say, other than being the CEO, you don't get many positions that give you that sense of visibility and experience.

Yeah.

Especially if you're the Chief of staff for a CEO.

I guess you're the kind of their right hand really, aren't you, and just kind of getting stuff done for them.

You're almost kind of an extension of them in a true.

Kind of.

That's exactly how he described it.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, that's a really interesting one.

So we'll go back, definitely go back to that.

So then obviously you made the move to rsa.

You've been there for a few years.

What, what was the, did that Chief of Staff role kind of, and, and going back into insurance off the back of that, did that kind of cement that one you wanted to do in insurance?

But did it, did it make it any clearer what you actually.

The role you wanted to do in the kind of short, medium, long term?

Because I, I guess that, that there would be, I think if lots of people would do that Chief of staff run.

Think actually maybe I want to go down the kind of COO route, CEO route, something like that.

Like did, did what, what, what, what did that, what kind of did that shape for you?

Coming.

Coming.

I mean, people ask me all the time, actually.

I never really have my eyes set on being a certain role because in my mind that kind of pigeonhole me too much.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I just always feel like there's so much variety of roles out there that you just don't even know like it existed.

So if I pigeon my pigeonhole myself into being a coo, CIO or whatever, I feel like I'm missing out.

I feel like I'm missing on all of the other opportunities.

Become a bit too tunnel visioned on that.

But my kind of, you know, the way that, how I progress in my career and I continue to do it in that way just, I just want a new challenge.

I want to learn something.

I want, I want to make a difference.

So as long As I can tick all of those boxes, I'm good because I'm still growing, I'm still developing, you know, because that's the most important thing for me, rather than being having a certain title, if that makes sense.

And I guess the thing that I missed the most, you know, the reason why I came back and came back to this role specifically, is that you start to realize where strength really lies.

So I starting to kind of like work out okay.

Actually the type of environment that I enjoy operating in and where I thrive the most.

And for me, that's usually at the start of a big strategic transformation kind of journey.

Because I feel like my superpower, if you will, is to be able to translate as quite high level ambition into something that is much more tangible, some like.

And actually making it into a reality.

So the translation, if you will, between something super high level is a statement.

Yeah.

Into a proper delivery roadmap.

And then being able to deliver that and seeing that outcome being like realized.

I think that's like where I thrive the most, what I enjoy the most.

And that's kind of why I joined rsa, because we were right at that stage where things are not quite shaped up yet directionally.

We kind of know where we want to go and it's really driving for growth, which is nice.

How many of us kind of been in kind of like, you know, expense challenge type scenario.

But, you know, we're really trying to drive growth there.

So all of that together is like, for me, it takes all of the right boxes, you know.

Yeah, that's an interesting one because I think lots of people that have been on the podcast and people that I speak to, there's this kind of.

I think lots of people do get very tunnel visioned on making it to a CIO or a COO or whatever it may be.

And I always say, like, before you, before you re like one, don't focus on it too much.

Like focus on what you enjoy doing.

Because you'd be surprised that, I mean, the amount of people that I've spoke to over the years that have got ambitions to be a.

I don't know, they're a, they're a techie and they want to be a seato and when they get there, they realize that actually much technical stuff anymore.

And that's, that's kind of really what they love doing.

So it sounds like you kind of figured that out.

I know you said you don't necessarily focus on a, on a, on a title, but would you, would your ambitions be based on what you just said to get to the kind of C suite type of level in some way, shape or form.

And how do you.

And if the answer to that is yes, how do you think you would.

Would you be comfortable in bridging that gap in not doing so much of the.

The actual delivery?

Because it sounds like taking the strategy that those guys are coming up with and turning that into something tangible, getting that delivered, building the team and, and driving it is, is kind of what you're, what you're great at and what you really enjoy doing.

The next step up from that is, is probably less of that and more of the shaping and maybe hiring someone like you to go and do the delivering.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does.

So.

So definitely, you know, being in the C suite, that will be amazing.

Mainly because I think that give me the, I suppose, position to help influence a lot more on perhaps certain things I do care deeply about.

You know, things like diversity, women, technology, and like, you know, just give me that chance to influence it a lot more.

And yeah, I think, think, you know, those things.

You only need to experience it to really know.

Because to your point, right.

You gotta give up.

Yeah.

You know, some of the doing.

I had to give up so much even just in my current position right now.

Yeah, you know, I get like, you know, people always get a little bit worried, just like, okay, Sally's in this spreadsheet, Sally's in this PowerPoint.

Yeah, yeah.

This is like, let the team, like, you know, get on with this.

Perfectly capable.

So learning to let go on some of the stuff is definitely a hard thing for me to kind of like, learn through the years.

Because, you know, I always jokingly say to people, I used to have a motto, which is really ridiculous.

You know, if someone else can do it, I can do it better.

Yeah, yeah.

If no one else can do it, I can do it.

And that, I mean, that as a mindset, probably worked fantastically through my career in Accenture.

Right.

But.

But as I kind of like moved into the industry and all that kind of stuff, it started to, I mean, it done me great.

Right.

But at the same time, it burned me out so much because I have to know everything.

I need to do everything.

And that was almost like my mindset around what a leader needs to do.

Like, how dare I tell other people what to do when I don't know how to do that myself?

I think it's only until the recent years when I kind of realize that.

But that's like, you know, a leader doesn't need to do that?

Yeah, yeah.

You know, you know, sometimes it's literally just about building up her team, you know, who are, you know, much better than me at all of these different things and bringing them together towards, like, you know, achieving that one goal and then winning together.

Right.

But I know it sounds really like, simple, but literally took me years to.

Accept that I could totally resonate with it.

I mean, obviously I've been running the business for six months, not, not very long, but the like, for me, like the ambition now is to have an office full of people that are miles better than me at everything.

Right.

Like that, that would, that, that would be the great place to be.

But I can totally resonate with the fact that you feel like you should need to know.

Know everything and that making that mindset shift is, is, is the kind of.

Is probably one of the most important things in becoming a.

Because if you're going to become a cio, CEO, cio, whatever the job title may be, then you're going to have to accept that you can't be in the, in the detail of everything.

And more to the point, people want to work for a boss that allows them to flourish 100%.

But I think having had the experience of knowing, knowing how to do some of it, like not all of it, but just knowing some of it just helps me to understand when I need to dive in.

Yeah.

Yeah, okay.

When?

Because like, you know, yes, absolutely, we should empower our teams and that's, that's the whole reason why you hire them as well.

Right.

But at the same time, right.

You know, knowing when to jump in and jump back out again.

I think that is another kind of like quite a special skill that I'm still learning.

I don't think I quite mastered that yet because, you know, everyone's great, but there's also a reason why I'm here as well.

Yeah, of course.

And also those people need.

Sometimes need support and might not ask for it.

Right.

Being able to spot when they need support to dive in and then when you've given them enough and just kind of of let them make their own mistakes, I think it's, I mean, it's.

Never such a balance, isn't it?

And there's no, there's no, there's no perfect answer.

Right.

You're never going to get it right.

But the more, I guess the more you, you, you do it, the more you get used to.

To kind of maybe pushed it too far or didn't do enough or whatever, but you kind of that ongoing analysis of it is a good place to be, isn't it?

So I wanted to.

You mentioned about a few of the things that you're kind of passionate about and stuff like that.

Women in so technology.

I wanted to go right back to the start and just some of those challenges that you faced in each junction that, that, that, that career.

So obviously it seems like the first biggest challenge you had was coming to the UK at 11 years old, not being able to speak English, going to a totally different school.

Let's.

I mean, again, I know it's a long time ago, but did you think that, how was that?

Like, was that.

That must have been really, really difficult at the time?

And do you think that that kind of shaped any of the way that you approach things now in your kind of career and it kind of built some, some, some resilience and, and that kind of thing?

Yeah, it's, it's interesting because I kind of.

My memory is really fake.

Yeah.

During that age, I kind of remember going to school and literally not understanding a word of what, what anyone is talking to me about.

It is weird.

But then the next thing I remember, I was fluent.

Yeah.

So I don't remember how I've learned, if that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah.

But I think because the environment, as I said.

Right.

The whole school only had, you know, me and my sister were the only Chinese in there, so you have no choice but to learn.

So the environment really forces you.

And at that age, I suppose you're still young enough to, to be able to absorb and like learn fairly, like quickly kind of thing.

So.

Yeah, I think.

And also during that time and that generation of people moving over, you know, all the Chinese people either own a Chinese takeaway or restaurants.

It's stereotypical.

And my parents did exactly that.

So they decided to open up a Chinese takeaway, which was fab.

I mean, it was like, you know, it provided us with a living, but that also meant we had to work there.

Right.

Okay.

Because like, margin is low, so it's a proper family business and you end up working there like, you know, seven days a week.

Literally seven days a week back then, including bank holidays.

So, you know, so.

But I felt that's probably where I started to build my work ethic.

I remember finishing school at like 3:30 or whatever time it was.

You had like, you come home, have a couple of hours rest and then you start working at like 5 and then the takeaway closes at 11.

And then after you finish that, you do the books and you kind of like go to bed at like, you know, 2:00 in the morning, you go to school the next day and then start all over again and just like constant and.

And that I suppose part of the reason why I'm such a night owl.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Not a morning person at all because I always worked a late shift.

But also you kind of like, you know, that built your resilience, that built your kind of like work ethics like you know, through that experience.

So yeah, I mean it did me.

It was hard.

I mean it was hard for everybody in the family, but it does a lot of good at the same time.

Yeah.

This podcast is brought to you by invitation.

Vector Search Building best of class leadership teams in the tech and transformation space in insurance is hard.

You know, you need something more than your internal talent team or your typical PSL recruitment agencies, but you also don't want to deal with the traditional exec search firms who charge sky high fees and take months to deliver.

That's where Invector Search comes in.

Powered by Invector Group, we combine top tier market knowledge with cutting edge psychometric and organometric testing to secure you the best candidates in under four weeks from brief to offer.

We also include a six month placement guarantee as standard and deliver all of this at a much more transparent and cost effective price point compared to the typical exec search firms.

So no charging you on their first year of bonus or anything like that.

Hiring your leadership team in technology and insurance really doesn't need to be this difficult.

It can be much easier.

For more information, ping us an email atinfo Vector Group.com or drop me Mark Thomas, a DM on LinkedIn.

All links are in the show notes.

Now let's get back to today's episode.

Yeah, well, I mean I totally agree.

I think that I was, I did a lot of that kind of stuff when I was not quite as extreme as that.

But I think it's so important.

Is it like just get that kind of work ethic.

You can't.

Once you've got it, you never kind of lose it.

So it's like the.

And you can't really get it at 30.

Like I mean if you don't have it early on, I think it's a tough one.

What about the.

You mentioned about the.

It's an interesting kind of juncture where you kind of took that it's quite a grown up decision to stand there at probably 18, 19 or however old you were and decide that maybe the art route wasn't the best route from a financial perspective and then move into Something that was probably more kind of practically the right way to go and maybe go against something that you love doing.

So talk to me a little bit about that decision.

I'd love to understand a little bit more about how that kind of came about.

Did it just.

Was it just kind of quite a natural thing that you did or was there kind of a lot of thinking that went into.

Into it?

It was fairly natural.

I mean, my parents really, like, they were supportive regardless.

Like, they were supportive.

That's interesting because I did wonder whether or not there was like, prep that you.

Because, because like, like you.

It wouldn't be the first family to say, actually don't.

Don't go and follow the art goal.

Like do something.

Become a, I don't know, a doctor or like something a bit more stereotypical.

Right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But that, that.

Because, I mean, I think most.

But most people who would have gone into those careers would have experienced that.

I'm sure my parents would have been exactly the same.

So.

But.

But sure, deep down they wanted me.

Yeah.

You had become a lawyer or doctor or something like that.

Exactly, exactly.

So that they can brag.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

I think all parents typically kind of want that.

Exactly, exactly.

Secretly, deep down, they really wanted that.

But no, I mean, I mean, my memory.

I mean, my.

I have selective memory.

I tend to remember the good stuff from that, by the way, bad way to go.

And.

And I don't remember them trying to persuade me to change my degree or anything like that.

I remember them being supportive, like, no matter which way I go.

But because we've been running that business for quite a while and I suppose I already have that early business mindset inside of me and I'm not stupid.

You go to an art school and it's the amount of expense on materials, on all the different tools and kits and everything like that expensive.

And you know, you also realize that, you know, being successful in a creative industry take more than talents.

Yeah.

Right.

It's about your network.

It's about luck sometimes being a right time, right place.

It takes a lot of things to be right.

Yeah.

In order for you to be successful.

And I think at a time I just kind of going.

I don't really have the heart to put everyone through all of this not knowing whether I can kind of contribute back, if that makes sense.

It sounds.

It sounds like that.

So picking that apart, but it sounds like there was still.

So there was an underlying thing of that you wanted to be successful and whatever you did and you wanted to kind of Drive a career or whatever.

And actually if someone had said to you that you could.

So there was, there was some ambition there, I guess, is what I'm trying to get at.

And if, yeah, if there would have been a guarantee that you're going to do the art thing and you could have made a career out of it and financially been good, then that probably would have been the way to go.

But I think that that ambition is obviously what was kind of, of.

Because I think a lot of people would do art and have no known necessary ambition of making money and having a career out of it.

They just do it because they're interested in it.

Right.

And it's quite hard decisions about when you're 18 years old, because what do you really know at that age?

So then you evolved that.

And then you went into tech.

Like what was that like for going into Accenture?

Technology, banking, insurance.

Probably one of the very few women kind of however long ago, 15 years ago or whatever.

Well, yeah, I mean, even at uni, I think we had maybe less than eight girls.

I can't remember now, something like that in my, in my course.

So, you know, even at that stage, you know, it wasn't many of us.

Yeah.

And then going into Accenture, it, you know, it is quite male dominated.

Right.

You know, especially inside insurance.

Yeah, yeah.

And I suppose like, at first it was just like, oh, okay.

And I always jokingly said that, that, you know.

Well, I.

It's not in, in that industry, I'm kind of going, well, it's, it's quite often that I'm the only Chinese in, in the room.

Yeah.

The only female.

Yeah.

The only neurodiver.

So I'm dyslexic as well.

And then combined with being five foot tall and like to smile a lot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And actually, you know, care about people, have empathy and all that kind of stuff.

All of those things added up together just doesn't really fit very well.

Yeah, you quite unique in that.

In that it's all very unique in that scenario.

Exactly.

But I suppose all of that together, you know, in some way, like it.

It helped me to stand out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But also in some way, like a lot of people underestimate my capability at the same time, which is of course frustrating.

Right.

But equally it kind of gave me that fire to want to prove them wrong.

Yeah.

And you know, and approve them wrong every single time.

And, you know, and that's kind of what drove me in a really strange way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's interesting that Is it?

Because I think you can, you can channel it in different ways, can't you?

But it sounds like it was, you can kind of turn it into a bit of a superpower if you, if.

It always take a little while.

I'm not gonna lie.

You know, you, you like all this self doubt and imposter syndrome and everything always kicks in, especially when you change roles or when you change your environment, changing clients and all that kind of stuff.

Every single time I have to go through that dip.

Yeah.

You know, like, it must be really frustrating.

It is.

But I, I kind, after I've done it a few times, I know I will come out on top of it.

And I guess you build a bit of a playbook of how, how you, how it's gone before and you've got some kind of lived experience of getting through it and, and how you've done it before.

So you've got kind of some tools there to.

Exactly.

But that got built over the years.

Like the first few times is always really hard.

Like I say, after that you start to draw back on your, like, you know, your experience from the panel.

Just like, yeah, this is, this is just a normal curve that I'm gonna go through.

I'll be fine.

I'll get, I'll get like, get out of that kind of thing.

So, yeah, you just get used to it after a little while.

What's your, your kind of view and kind of perception of where the, the kind of insurance stroke technology space is at now on the kind of the improvement cycle around that kind of thing?

Because I mean, it definitely seems like it's better, but still probably a long way to go is my kind of perception.

But you're probably much better placed to have a view on that than in.

Terms of like, you know, the diversity.

Yeah, the diversity thing.

Especially the kind of.

Because I think part of my frustration, my role is that there's a big focus on just we need more women is a fairly kind of blunt statement that people make where there's obviously so many different ways of diversifying your workforce, but the insurance space as a whole seems quite the kind of gender diversity thing is by far the top of the thing.

Whether people admit it or not.

My experience of it is that that's the number one priority to.

But what, what's your, what's your kind of take on where they're at on improving that?

I feel like it has made a bit of progress since I started.

I remember when, you know, in my early career there weren't that many role Models.

There weren't that many, like, you know, women in senior positions, whether you're talking about in the industry or within the technology space.

But it's funny because I was doing a women in tech lunch and learn thing yesterday, and I was.

I was telling them exactly the same thing.

Just like, when I was growing up, there wasn't many of them.

But I look around in the room now, right.

I see a lot more talents, like, a lot more female talents that, you know, not only I can see really bright future in terms of their own career, and I can see, like, you know, there's space in a, you know, top table for them, but also I feel like we're creating that much more of, like, of an opportunity for the next generation.

So, you know, the younger me would, like, look up and just like, you know what?

There are loads of, like, women in this space.

I don't need to think about whether I belong here or not.

Like, they would just know that they do.

I think that's really powerful.

And again, it's something that it took me quite a while to realize.

I used to be so resistant in, like, resistant on doing things like women in tech stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah, okay.

Because I really didn't want that.

Like, you know, everyone wants to have more female in, like, in this position.

I didn't want to have the perception where people look at me just to go, oh, they hired her because, you know, she's female.

She's like Chinese.

Taking all of these boxes.

She's short.

I really didn't want to have, like, give that impression out.

So I really, like, you know, push against it and really wanted to prove to everyone that I got to where I am because of my own capability.

Yeah.

And I know there's a lot of women out there still kind of, like, feel in a kind of, like, similar way as well.

And I would say it's only since I came back into the insurance industry after the chief of staff gig, I felt a bigger sense of responsibility to.

Actually, it's not about me.

It's not about how I feel about some of these things.

Like, you know, and I kind of try to remember again, you know, back to when I was younger, right.

Younger than now, you know, literally, there wasn't many people around and, you know, if only there were more of them.

Right.

Maybe I didn't need to work that three, four times harder just to prove that I deserve to be here.

Maybe I can just work at the same pace, you know, as everyone else, and still, like, still make it.

Well, I think I Think also that what you said is that, and we were speaking of a little bit about it before we started recording, is that sometimes, and I'm always amazed when I'm recording these podcasts how many great bits of advice and that come out of the conversation that people don't realize is good advice.

Because when you're doing the job and you're, and you're engrossed in it, I mean it certainly happens in my line of work.

Right.

I know lots of stuff about people changing jobs and stuff and I assume that most people know it, but if you've only changed jobs two or three times, you probably don't.

So.

So you don't realize that a lot of the knowledge and the experience and all that kind of stuff that you've got is super valuable to someone who hasn't got it, but to you it's just everyday life.

Exactly.

So those dips that you mentioned that you've had in your career where, and the realization after you've done it two, three, four times, it's just the thing someone might be going through their first dip of that and actually just being able to have you there to say, look, I've done this three or four times.

This is, this is just how it goes.

And like just, and I'm kind of stick with it etc and just that, that, that probably five minute conversation from someone who is, they admire or they look up to whatever can be a game changer.

Right.

Like it can, it can totally change someone's perception of their kind of day, week, month, new role mean that maybe they don't kind of jack it in and give up and, and just go for a bit longer and then start to flourish.

So it's.

Yeah, I think I was going to ask it, that was my follow up questions.

Do you think, do you feel a kind of partly a, a responsibility now to kind of give back a little bit to that?

Definitely.

And you know, this is very fresh in my mind because I just done that yesterday.

Yeah.

You know, with that, with a group of ladies, I mean, you know, I remember saying to them right at the beginning just like, you know, I never thought that, you know, when I was early in my career, I never thought I'd be sitting here and being asked to share my career journey, my experiences, them because you know, you like to think, well who am I?

Just like, surely mine is like, it's fairly non eventful, it's pretty normal and all that kind of stuff.

But actually they, you know, when we were kind of like mingling and all that kind of stuff.

It was just like there's so much like what of what I experienced, what I said or what I'm still experiencing now.

There is so relatable to them and like, you know, it's all these little snippets of stuff and we all realize that actually no matter kind of like what stage of the career you're in, like it's valid to have some of those feelings around.

You know, you, you have that moment of self doubt, you're in a meeting room, you're kind of wondering why on earth am I here?

But you know, how do you pivot that thinking into, hey, you know what, I do deserve to be here.

I do have like, you know, different things that I can bring to the table.

It's like, how do we like we all feel that, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Everyone, you know, no matter what level you're at.

Exactly.

So the kind of trick is around how do you realize when that feeling is happening and how do you pivot that into an energy that actually bring the best of you to the situation?

Yeah, yeah.

And also like purely from a selfish perspective, it's, it's like a bit of a confidence boost as well to have people asking you questions just to remember why you're, why, why you're doing a good job.

Right.

And stuff like that.

Because I think that's, that's the thing that's open, overlooked.

It's like actually those, whenever I've done stuff like that, you feel like you like why would be people interested in like the giving and all that kind of stuff?

But actually the, the, the, you get something back from that.

Right?

Like having, having the confidence there and, and, and also remembering sometimes when you've having a bad day and all that kind of stuff.

So it's, it's a, it's not a, it's not a one way street.

I think 100.

It's definitely a both way thing.

Oh, that's definitely it.

And you know, you get to, especially you get to certain levels as well.

Not many people kind of like, you know, you know, acknowledge.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it.

I totally get it.

So yeah, actually you're 100, right?

It is a bit of a two way street.

And just like, you know, give me that level of reassurance that sometimes I might not even realize I need it.

Yeah, yeah.

So I, I wanted to move on to talk a little bit about kind of what you're doing right now, the kind of state, state of tech.

Like we're in this kind of interesting Flux in technology and insurance where, where things have started to progress.

Certainly the kind of whole modernization thing is, is, is now a more advanced stage, but still, still probably a long way to go.

Just as that's kind of starting to progress, AI rises, raises its head.

And so I'd just like to get your view on kind of what's going on at RSA right now for you.

What's kind of top of the agenda views on kind of AI in the next, next kind of 12 months or so of, of what that, what that looks like in conjunction to your role.

Yeah.

So firstly, I think AI is here to stay.

Yeah.

And like it or not.

Right.

You know, I feel that there are a lot of people in very like a few different camps, like, you know, some people hoping that it's going to just go away.

Like many other things before, you know, you know, we had also sorts of things in the industry about blockchain.

You know, do you remember, you go to any conference, it's just like that's all they ever talked about.

Just like.

Exactly.

So I think people, some people hope that AI will be one of those who just kind of get fizzled out and then you kind of got another camp that really worry that AI is going to take over all of the jobs and then just like, you know, what am I going to do?

But actually I think it is going to stay, but we need to learn how to harness it.

It's another tool that we can use to help us to kind of like, you know, drive the way that we operate in a different way.

How do we take the advantage of AI?

But I think in order to take advantage of what AI can bring, we need to sort out our technology foundations, which is like what we are focusing on at the moment.

Right.

Because not dislike many of the kind of like big organizations in the industry for many years.

You know, we have a lot of legacy technology in our estate.

Guess what?

I don't work particularly well.

Yes.

So we are in process of transforming our entire technology estate throughout the whole value chain through the whole ecosystem, which is a huge job.

But I think what we're doing now is a lot more kind of like componentized than I suppose back in the days where you're trying to have one system that is all singing or dancing, that can do everything.

Whereas now, you know, in a much more componentized kind of like, you know, target state architecture, it allows us to basically, you know, progress and deliver at different pace.

Yeah.

And also being able to plug in, you know, the best of breed of technology into, into the right stages as well.

Yeah.

Okay.

So we're in process of transforming that layer of the technology foundation at the moment in addition to really sorting out our data foundation.

Because that's another key part in terms of you need data to feed AI, you need data to feed everything.

So if we don't get that part right, you're essentially building everything out on quicksand.

You might get some immediate wins, but that's not sustainable.

So I feel like we are definitely getting some really good momentum since last year.

So we are progressing pretty well on this journey now.

And in parallel we're also exploring quite a lot of different things with AI.

I mentioned to you earlier, before we started recording about INTACT in the data lab, we're investing a huge amount in that space as well.

So we got that part almost doing the skunk work to always look ahead and then trying to look at how we can apply those technology in the business context.

Yeah, I think the really interesting thing that certainly that I've seen speaking to lots of chief data officers and stuff like that is that the stuff that everybody should have been doing there was the AI conversation that's kind of moved a lot further forward, much more forward facing facing.

But what that actual forward facing conversation has, has meant is that everybody's actually taken a step back and, and, and looked at the data estate and actually like actually before we go there we need to get, we need to get that sorted out and, and I think some people were getting that sorted out already.

It's made it even more front and center for those people that, that haven't because I mean you might like you say you might be able to get some, some kind of quick wins around some of the, the more kind of entry level AI stuff that's come out.

But if you start wanting to use the agentic stuff and all that kind of thing, you, you, you, you've got to get, you've got to have a good, good foundation scaffolding around what, what you, what you're doing to make it make, to get any real kind of credible win out of it.

And so certainly I, I think that it seems to me that the most people are focusing on that on, on that at the moment and getting, there's been a real right rise in, in, in how you use and get, get the data estate in good state before, before you really start kind of jumping full, full throttle into to come really advanced stuff.

Absolutely.

So what in regards to kind of next steps for you over like obviously intact, there's we're recording this in 23rd of April.

Last week, there was the announcement for the Intact are going to rebrand RSA to become the Intact group that we were talking a bit before we started.

That seems like a kind of a.

Quite a big change for a big brand.

What, what's the, what's the general feeling in RSA at the moment?

Is that, Is that a good thing, do you think?

I do think it is a good thing.

I think it's a very.

It.

Of course, it's a big change for a lot of those who's been in the industry for a long time and has been very loyal to the brand.

And of course, you know, it'll be quite worrying if people weren't sad about that at the same time.

Of course.

Totally.

Yeah.

Long time.

Exactly.

Which is perfectly understandable.

But equally, you know, we all need to move on to the next chapter.

And when you look at how INTACT has been built, you look at the track record, you look at what was anchoring everybody who's working there in terms of the values, the leadership, success factors and all that kind of stuff.

Just like, you can't, I can't fault that model.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's really exciting to be a part of it.

So the way that, I guess, like, you know, me and my team are thinking about it, it's just like, how do we leverage this as an opportunity to really reset ourselves, to take the best of what we have built within RSA already, our knowledge, our market presence and all that kind of stuff.

But how do we combine that with Intact kind of like power to really outperform in the market.

So I think, you know, it will be.

I think it will be really sad if people just, you know, to focus on just missing the old brand or just thinking that it's only a brand change, nothing else changes.

Because I just personally feel it is a fantastic opportunity for us to kind of like, you know, take this.

Right.

And channel all of our energy and turn what we both have into something amazing.

But there has.

I mean, again, I don't know.

I know very little about Intact and rsa, apart from just working with you guys over the years.

But the.

It seems to me that you kind of like you've been.

You get brought from the kind of outer circle into the, to the core.

And even if that's just a perception, because now there's the same name and therefore it's the same company, it's quite powerful how much that perception could, could, could, could change things.

Right?

And I mean, things change with brand Names all the, all the time.

Right.

It's, it's that there's, you shouldn't forget the heritage but at the same time if you're not moving forward, then, then, then, then, then that's a problem.

Right.

So, so it sounds, I think it seems like a really interesting and exciting time for to, to be part of the business.

What, what's the, what are the timelines in regards to kind of when, when it officially happens?

Has that been, is that announced?

Yeah, it'll be like later on this year.

So we're going through a bit of a transition period because we can't just like switch everything over.

Obviously we're still going through the NIG and rsa, you know, we call it one commercial.

So bringing the two organizations together.

So the integration of that as well.

So yeah, I think it will be later on this year where we're basically officially starting to see the intact brand in the UK market.

Good stuff.

Well, look, just before we get to the, the kind of, the quick fire round that I do at the end, the one thing I, the other thing I just wanted to kind of touch on is just bits of advice really.

I mean like the, there's so many snippets there of that we've kind of gone through of kind of challenges.

Good things that happened potentially.

Some, some kind of not so good things.

Such as.

So what, what would you say if there is a kind of two or three kind of really key pieces of advice that you've picked up over the years that you would, you would give to someone who's kind of trying to go in the, the same path or, or, or, or in a similar boat to what you've been before?

What are there any kind of key pieces of wisdom that you've picked up along the way?

So funny when you say wisdom.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I suppose like for me is just stick to like things that you're passionate about.

Like stick to your own principles, you know, and just be open minded because you know, there's so many things in this world out there and you know, being open minded, being curious and like, you know, and all always have that sense of accountability for the outcome that you're driving.

I think that those things alone will kind of get you a really, really long way.

Yeah.

And also just like don't let other people dictate your self worth.

Yeah.

You know, like know what you're worth and you know, stand by that and back yourself.

And do you think, I mean, interesting that you.

Obviously we spoke a little bit about the Consulting thing.

Do you think that's a, that's a, like, would you give people that advice of like variety early?

Is it?

Because it seems to be a fairly common theme for this is that actually not, not always some people have taken the kind of fairly atypical route up to senior roles.

But I would say that 70, 80% of the people I speak to have had a bit of a zigzag and, and they've done a variety of stuff that's, that's built them up and give them that breadth of experience, knowledge, et cetera, to take on more senior roles.

So that when challenges come up that are maybe a bit random and not directly as you'd expect them, they're still quite well positioned to be able to help.

Do you think that's, is that the kind of advice you'd give to kind of people who are just starting out and that kind of thing?

I would, but I'm kind of biased.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just because I enjoy that journey so much.

That's part of my growth, part of my, you know, self discovery process, if you will.

And you don't have to just like achieve that through consulting.

I think it's more, you know, they typically does offer that, you know, more easily.

And I wouldn't say every organ, some organizations do do that.

You know, if I look across Intact now, you know, everyone in the C suite have done that variety of roles through their career kind of thing.

And it was great that Intact let you do that.

And like they encourage people to try out different roles.

But not every organization that you know, I've been in, like either as a consultant or been in personally, like are that open minded about it.

Yeah.

So yeah, I think, you know, I definitely enjoy the variety.

Yeah.

So did you say intact?

They kind of, they've got a mentality of the fact that actually they like people to move around the organization and try different things very much.

They might only be a kind of a 75, 80 fit for that role, but actually you've got the right skills, attributes, track record, go and go and try it and actually you can learn that, that fill in the gaps.

Basically 100 like literally I talk to it every single person that I come across in in intact and all of them have been rotating around, you know, different functions, different roles and as you say, you know, and that's kind of what I mean by the anchor themselves on the leadership success factors and their values and it's similar to what I mentioned earlier.

I think if you hold true to all of those things yeah, you know what you don't know, you will just learn.

Yeah, yeah.

If you've got the right smarts and kind of the background and you can, you can pick things up exactly right.

Quick fire round.

Nobody will know this but you, you, you were, you said you didn't really like my question before we started, so we're.

There could be some interesting answers here.

Right.

The first one is which brand or company do you most admire and why give us the honest answer.

I'm going to say Apple.

Okay.

I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I love it because they are in terms of innovation, in terms of the sleek, simple design, that user centric design and the fact that everything just works, nothing ever goes wrong with them.

And once you're kind of like in the whole ecosystem with the iPad, with a phone, with the watch, with your Mac, et cetera, once you're in is really flipping hard to get out.

Right.

And you realize that how many things don't really work that well when you.

I, I totally, I mean I don't use a Mac, I use a Windows PC.

But I saw a program about two years ago and I didn't, I didn't.

I mean I knew it, but I didn't realize I knew it.

Which was.

IPhones never come with an instruction manual.

Now I know there's a little bit of a cheat there because you can search everything on Google now.

But, but I don't think they ever.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

I mean everything on an iPhone just works exactly how you would want it to work.

Unless you're my 77 year old old dad who probably doesn't know how to work anything and rings me all the time.

But.

Yeah, but, but for the vast majority of people it does just work, doesn't it?

Which is, which is pretty amazing.

Exactly.

Super intuitive.

And as far as a brand concerned, globally well known, known for the quality, known for like all of those amazing things and that level of stickiness every brand would love.

Right.

You know, once you're in, it's so hard to get out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So yeah, I do admire them for.

Yeah, great.

The one piece of advice you wish you were given when you were first starting out.

Don'T be afraid to say no.

Okay, give us an example.

In what context?

For so many years I just like have that concept around.

I need to say yes to everything.

I need to prove that I can do everything.

And actually sometimes times that actually didn't diminish my own value.

Yeah, yeah.

So actually learning when to Say no and how to say no as well.

Yeah.

Different ways in terms of how you can do it actually is a very powerful tool.

Yeah.

And I wish people told me that a little bit earlier.

I think, I think there's a.

I don't know if there's a book, but there's certainly something I've read over the years that is called the Power of no.

And it's like certainly in a sales environment, the.

If there's some real power in that.

So I think it resonates in loads of different ways.

I can totally get what you mean about how it diminishes your.

It's a difficult one because when you're earlier in your career, you say that.

Yes.

A lot.

And that's probably quite a good thing.

Exactly.

But there's a tipping point, isn't there?

Oh, totally.

I still remember it was one of the CEO that I used to work with and as I was leaving the organization, leaving the account, and he said to me, just brilliant.

But let me give you a piece of advice.

You need to say no a little bit more.

Yeah.

Because actually, you know.

Yes, we know you can do a lot, but you.

The more you say yes, the more that you're going to be taken advantage out of.

Yeah.

And you know, we don't value like you're not getting the value that you deserve.

Yeah, it's.

It's something along those words.

I don't remember word for word, but that really resonated with me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Great piece of advice.

Next one is if you could swap jobs with one person for a day, who would it be?

Not a particular person, but I'd quite like to be like MI5 or something like that.

Just be a spy.

Probably really bad example and not quite James Bond because he's probably the worst spy in the world because everyone know him and know his face.

Yeah, exactly.

Jumps off buildings all the time and kills himself.

But like, you know, just doing something like that would be quite cool, quite fun.

I'm not giving this a lot of thought.

Sorry.

Yeah, no, no, no, that's fine.

I wanted to on that.

So do you.

You mentioned about the art thing.

Are you still into that?

Kind of.

Did you do it as like a hobby and stuff like that?

I do, I do.

So I still paint, I still draw.

I still do like random sculpture or like different.

Different kind of like arts and crafts things.

So that's just kind of like your.

Like.

Because it's interesting.

I.

I think most people who listen this podcast will know I'm.

I Play golf if you watch follow me on LinkedIn.

I'm quite into into my golf but.

And there was a period about two years ago where I thought, do I really want to do that?

Shall I work in.

Do something in golf?

And it wasn't until I spoke to someone who said to me the problem with working in what you love is it becomes a job and not what you love.

And actually when I think about it, I like playing golf with my friends and it's the one time I turn my phone off and it's a really good kind of relaxation thing for me.

And it's interesting, had you gone into art for a job, you might not have loved it quite so much as what you probably do now I think.

So I would probably agree with that because I pro start overthinking it because you know, you're starting to have much more of an objective around what you're trying to achieve out of like whatever you're doing rather than actually I just wanted to have a bit of fun.

I just wanted to do it nice painting.

Want to like, you know, kill a few hours in front of a river and just like you know, and if.

It takes a few days or a few hours and if I get, if I, if I don't finish it then exactly.

So well, it doesn't turn out perfectly as I imagined it, that's fine.

I'll do it again another day, you know.

So yeah, I mean I still, I still definitely enjoy that and do that nowadays.

Yeah.

Amazing.

The, the best non fiction book that you've ever read.

Yeah, yeah, give me the answer over.

Okay, I'm not going to make this one up but I, I don't really read like many management book because I work a, a lot of hours in a day.

I spend so much time at work and I feel like in my free time I actually like to do my paintings, do my drawings or you know, do something like, you know, fun.

Use it.

Yeah, something fun.

Use this other side of my brain.

Right.

Because I feel that that is very therapeutical for me because it's so intense at work.

I just feel like I need to have like, you know, exercise that part.

But yeah, so sorry, I don't.

No, I mean to be honest, I totally, I listen to loads of podcasts and lots of them about kind of self improvement type stuff and I listened to, I read a book recently called the Dose Effect which is all about dopamine and stuff like that.

And the main thing that came from that is actually sometimes when you're walking somewhere you can walk somewhere without your AirPods in listening to something and just kind of take in what's around.

Yeah, yeah.

So I'm really trying to do that.

So I get it, totally get it.

The best career decision you ever made.

Moving from consulting to industry.

Okay.

Yeah.

I mean I'm very grateful for, you know, for what I've learned through Accenture.

As I said earlier, it's a fantastic training ground.

But actually moving, making that move into the industry really helped me to establish myself as me.

Yeah.

You know, you really start to have to build your own brand and also having that element of you have skin in the game.

Yeah.

So you're not just doing something and then walking away later.

You know, you're there, you're here, you're defining what it needs to look like.

You build it, you need to live with it.

And I think that give a very different perspective.

And honestly when I was in consulting I thought, thought, you know, I know so much.

You know, you're here to consult the organization.

Right.

But only when you kind of move across, you realize you knew nothing.

Yeah, yeah.

And you've got to live with your.

Decision that what you deliver.

Right.

Especially if you stay there for longer period.

Like that's, that's what I've always thought is that as a consultant you deliver something and you leave.

And if it kind of works or doesn't, like you probably don't, you'll hear it, you maybe hear about it, but you don't have to live with that.

Exactly.

And I think only after you started to live through that experience as well, you realize, ah, if I were to do it again, this is how I would like, you know, do it differently.

But you will only realize that after you seen, after you've gone through that journey, if that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah.

Amazing.

Final question.

What's the best thing about working in insurance?

Oh, I love.

The industry is really ripe for innovation.

The fact that it's still quite a certain old fashioned kind of like industry actually give us a lot of space to innovate.

So as a technologist, I think that's fantastic.

But also at the very core of it, insurance is there to help people.

Yeah, it's, it's there to help people to get back on their feet.

It's helped them to go through the hard times and all that kind of stuff.

So as far as an industry concerned, at the very core I think is a really good one that I like to be a part of.

And then on the kind of like more technology side, I just felt there's so much more green space there that we can basically tap into and like, you know, make great things with.

Well, great way to finish.

Thank you so much for taking some time to.

It's been been amazing chat.

We could go on for hours.

I'm sure there'll be some people that want to connect and stuff like that.

LinkedIn obviously is where most people you're quite happy for people to reach out, connect and all that good stuff.

Well look, thanks everybody for listening.

Sally, been amazing guest.

Thanks for getting this in and if you want to follow me, Sally, etc.

Do so like comment, subscribe, all the usual stuff.

Plenty more episodes coming and we'll catch you next time.

Thank you.

And that's it for today's episode of beyond the Desk.

I really hope you enjoyed hearing from today's guest and that you've taken away some valuable insights to fuel your own career journey.

Journey.

If you liked what you heard, don't forget to hit like and make sure you subscribe so you'll never miss an episode.

There are plenty more to come every single Monday and if you're feeling really generous, please leave us a review and share it with your colleagues.

It really helps others find the show.

If you're hungry for more stories from the leaders shaping the future of insurance and insuretech, be sure to stay connected with me on LinkedIn, where I'll be sharing upcoming guest information, info and more behind the scenes footage from this episode and all the others coming up.

Thanks again for tuning in and I'll catch you next time for another inspiring conversation.

Until then, take care and keep pushing the limits of what's possible in your own career.

This podcast is sponsored by Invector Search, the brand new search solution to guide you in finding the best insurance leadership talent globally.

Find out more at www.invectorgroup.