Final pod recording

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there and a very warm welcome to season five episode 26 of people soup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:07] Sarah: I was lying awake one night.

[00:00:09] POSS INTRO

[00:00:09] Sarah: Just a day or so after my diagnosis and unable to sleep with all of this stuff going around in my head. And never have really been a writer before I just had this urge to get up and, and write and I, thought that that. Might help. And I don't know how long I was sat at my computer for at 2am in the morning, but it just seemed to kind of flow out of me.

[00:00:35] Sarah: And I got to the end of kind of writing about what had happened so far, and suddenly thought, Oh, this could be a book. And I even typed that at the end of what I'd written. And I looked back on, on what I'd written and, I started to see the ACT skills that were coming in that I was using.

[00:00:55] Pay supers. It's a special one this week. Over the summer, me and producer Emma experimented with a couple of live recordings and our first courageous participant with Dr. Sarah Swan.

[00:01:06] A verified rock chick who was written an extraordinary book called coping with breast cancer. How to navigate the emotional impact throughout your journey.

[00:01:16] It's based upon Sarah's lived experience and her expertise as a clinical psychologist. Particularly in the application of act.

[00:01:24] So in this episode, you'll hear how Sarah first got into psychology, the trials of getting onto the clinical training To the point where she was about to give up. How she discovered act. And then the life-changing devastating experience when Santa was diagnosed with breast cancer.

[00:01:40] You'll hear my review of the book. Zara talking about the writing process and how she kept going when she could barely see the screen through the tears.

[00:01:48] Folks, this truly is an extraordinary conversation. You'll also hear Sarah read an extract from the book. And we'll finish off with our takeaways for those in workplace settings. As well as song choice. [00:02:00] People soup as an award-winning podcast, where we share evidence-based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun to help you glow to work a bit more often. Let's just scoot over to the news desk. I am delighted to announce that I'll be running an act in the workplace, train the trainer course in April and may next year. Over four sessions in partnership with Joe Oliver at contextual consulting. You'll find all the links in the show notes.

[00:02:46] And I'm so excited to have the opportunity to share my experience of delivering act in the workplace with you all.

[00:02:54] And also on the news desk reviews are in for our last episode, which was part three of my chat with Dr. Sarah Cassady.

[00:03:00] D white on LinkedIn said, wow, this just really resonated with me As I'm having similar challenges with my eldest at the moment. Thanks so much for sharing, Donna May Linton on Facebook said great finale to the chat.

[00:03:14] Lovely to hear Syrah Cassidy, talk about our practical therapeutic experiences with children. And how it influence the development of the book. Tired of anxiety. Also great to hear the high regard and respect she has for children and their experiences. Feelings and understanding. Maybe we all tried to see children in their entirety and tell them to trust who they are. Maybe help them develop a sense of personal agency.

[00:03:38] Hear hear Donna May thanks to everyone who listened to shed and rated part three of my chat with Sarah Cassady. your support is what makes the people soup community so special? So please do keep listening and subscribing sharing And letting me know what you think. If you make some noise about the podcast and our guests. Within reach more people were stopped. That could be useful. But [00:04:00] for now. Get a brew on and have a listen to my chat with Dr. Sarah Swan. Recorded before a live virtual audience in August.

[00:04:08]

[00:04:15] Ross: I'm a little bit giddy, folks. I'm super excited to welcome Dr. Sarah Swan to PeopleSoup. Sarah, it's so nice to see you. A very, very warm welcome.

[00:04:25] Sarah: Thank you very much. It's really exciting to be here. I can't quite believe it, having listened to your podcast for so long.

[00:04:33] Ross: Oh, Sarah, I bet you say that to all the boys.

[00:04:36] Ross: That's very kind of you. I'm really privileged to be supporting the launch of your outstanding book, Coping with Breast Cancer, How to Navigate the Emotional Impact Throughout Your Journey. So, I can see people are using the applause icon and heck yeah, Sarah, it's truly amazing and what we'd like to do is just talk a little bit about you and the book.

[00:05:03] Ross: Just to share with the, the viewers and the listeners, how amazing you are. so no pressure.

[00:05:11] Ross: Now, Sarah, you remember from the PeopleSoup podcast that I have a research department, and we've discovered a little bit about you, but I'd really like you to tell us. But let me just do a brief intro. We know that you're a consultant clinical psychologist with a career of 25 years or so in the NHS, and you finished up as head of psychology for a large London borough.

[00:05:32] Ross: And we also know that you're now in independent practice at the SWAN consultancy, offering psychological therapy to adults with a range of mental health issues, and also working with business and organizations to support employee well being. We also know, as well as being an author, of course, that you've been on the board of directors of the Association of Clinical Psychologists, UK, and you continue to support them in a consultancy role.

[00:05:57]

[00:05:57] Section 1: Background - School

[00:05:57] Ross: So, Sarah, let's get to know [00:06:00] you a bit more. Tell me a bit about what young Sarah was like at school?

[00:06:05] Sarah: Oh, gosh, it's a long time ago now. I would say I was quite shy as a young girl. and my confidence has, grown exponentially. I think since then, I was always very conscientious and very diligent. partly because I always really worried about getting things wrong and worried about. being told off. so one of my regrets actually in life is giving up ballet. It was something that I really enjoyed and I was quite good at, but I stopped because I was, the teacher was, as a lot of ballet teachers were back then, really kind of strict and used to shout at the girls.

[00:06:43] Sarah: And, uh, I just couldn't tolerate that at all. I hated it. So I gave up something that I really loved. I think through school, I, I had lots of friends, but there was also this part of me that kind of really worried about what other people thought of me. I went to, quite an academic school and I wasn't a straight A student by any means.

[00:07:02] Sarah: And, uh, so I always felt this kind of pressure around, you know, doing well enough. and so I think those kind of, worries about, Am I good enough? What do people think of me? I think, for ACT people out there, they've continued to be my passengers on the bus that, I have traveling alongside me.

[00:07:20] Sarah: And, yeah, have, come out a lot during the writing process and particularly now the, publication of the book, I would say.

[00:07:27] Ross: Oh, that's wonderful, Sarah. The way you relate it to your passengers on the bus and they sound very familiar. Spoiler alert, me and Sarah have worked together on a, project for an organization and realized we had similar anxious passengers, along similar lines and also I didn't know you were really interested in ballet as a child and I can just imagine the teacher with a very tight bun. sort of shouting at you and maybe, maybe even banging a stick on the floor, but maybe that's because I watched too much Kids from Fame as a youngster.

[00:07:59] Sarah: [00:08:00] I was also a fan of Kids from Fame too, but no,

[00:08:02] Yvonne: I think you're quite right with that, that depiction.

[00:08:04] Section 2: Interest in Psychology

[00:08:04] Ross: And it's a shame because for those of you who don't know, I do some work with dance companies in the UK, and it can still be quite regimented and quite brutal environment for those high achievers, but I digress. I'm going to bring back my thoughts around questions and ask you, can you remember when you first got interested in psychology?

[00:08:26] Sarah: I think I was unsure when I went to uni what I wanted to, to do. So I did a behavioral science degree, which was really a mixture of.

[00:08:35] Sarah: sociology, psychology, philosophy. and so it was as I went through my three years at uni that I started to realize that I enjoyed the psychology options more. And so I chose psychology options in my final year so that I could get, it's called a graduate basis for registration with the BPS, and then I also started doing some work experience alongside uni, like in the holidays, working, um, at what was then, uh, long stay hospital for people with learning disabilities and challenging behavior.

[00:09:08] Sarah: And so that started to open my eyes to psychology in the real world, which. definitely fits for me. I need to see how things work in the real world rather than being just an academic. although having said that people who know me will know that I'm a big fan of rock music.

[00:09:25] Sarah: this started as a teenager and recently I had just a music TV channel on the background whilst I was doing the ironing. And, a Metallica song came on called One, dunno if anyone's familiar with it, but it's about a veteran who's lost his limbs and his speech. And it's a very kind of, uh, distressing music video, really.

[00:09:46] Sarah: but it suddenly made me think, gosh, I remember being totally, absorbed by this, video and really kind of curious about this whole, Experience. And so I wondered if that was the kind of the beginnings of my [00:10:00] interest in trauma and working with people who've been through very difficult life experiences.

[00:10:06] Sarah: So, there you go. Who knew Metallica could have such an impact.

[00:10:10] Ross: I think, I think we need Emma if we could get Metallica on line 10. That would be amazing. But that, super interesting that it piqued your curiosity through that different medium and also getting really practical experience. so when did the shift happen? When did you think, right, clinical is what I want to do?

[00:10:29] Sarah: So I think that came in the final year of university, but I had no idea how difficult it was to get onto clinical training.

[00:10:38] Sarah: Actually, I think that's a good thing because I think I probably would have given up if I had known that you know, that voice saying no, you're not good enough would have, shouted too loud at that point. so. Yeah, I decided that's what I wanted to do in my final year and then I was really, really fortunate because the next move after that is to try and get a post as an assistant psychologist or a research assistant, that kind of thing.

[00:11:02] Sarah: so I managed to get that assistant psychologist post. that, enabled me to kind of start that clinical process. And I'd, done my, research project, um, for my undergrad, based in the hospital. So I was researching, the impact of lack of stimulation on behavior because I was so struck by.

[00:11:20] Sarah: I mean, the conditions were terrible. I'm so pleased that people don't have to live like, like that now. It was really shocking. It was just before the time when we moved people out of long stay hospitals into community settings. And, yeah, I was so shocked by the lack of activity and opportunities people had for, activities and stimulation.

[00:11:42] Sarah: So that's what I did my, research on. and then after I did that, assistant post for a year, I spent the next few years kind of having knockbacks from clinical training. So having to apply over and over again, and just trying to get more and more experience to improve my CV. And [00:12:00] actually, I think, after four years I decided okay if I don't get on this year, I'm going to do something different, and I decided I was going to do occupational psychology, and I didn't get on that year and I got myself a place on a Occ Psych Masters, and I had a part time job set up that would enable me to be able to afford to do it.

[00:12:22] Sarah: And then I managed to get on to clinical training in the last moment because they set up an additional course and, took people that hadn't got interviews elsewhere in London. which, I remember being. So delighted about. But also I had this all but I've got this other plan B now and, and there was part of me thinking, should I still follow plan A or should I follow plan B so it's quite interesting actually that now I've kind of come, back to some of that.

[00:12:51] Sarah: Yeah, organizational psychology side. I would kind of love to do the Masters now, but I know my husband would probably not be happy with me taking up yet more study the amount I've done over the years.

[00:13:04] Ross: Wow, that's lovely. Thank you so much for setting that out for us. It's, great to hear what I'm getting from you with the sort of tenacity.

[00:13:12] Ross: in thinking, let's have another go at the, clin psych, but also it's really palpable that sense of shock about the lack of activity which drove your research. So it, I feel there's a, desire for you to, make a difference in the world. And I think are, are there any other pivotal moments in your career that you, you might share with us?

[00:13:33] Sarah: well, I think around that time when I was doing the assistant posts, I worked, with a woman called, Janet Broche, who, really became my mentor. we are still friends to this day, but she, I think she was quite pivotal in helping me too you know, keep going and, to really develop my, confidence in my abilities, actually. So I think that was really important. And then, years later, I was working in a drug and alcohol service, after [00:14:00] qualifying and I'd worked my way up to consultant grade there. And the trust that I was working for lost the tender and it was won by, a different NHS trust And, their model didn't include psychology. So it meant that, myself and my, um, I think I had three people in the team then, had to, obviously find jobs elsewhere, but I was really really fortunate in that at the time I needed to move across one of the other consultants was retiring.

[00:14:32] Sarah: So I was able to move into her job, which was in mental health, which was again, an area that I wanted to get back into. and so that really gave me, a new platform really for developing my career. So yeah, that was probably another, another point. And then, um, at the point that I was introduced to, to act, I was having quite a lot of difficulties in, in my work.

[00:14:56] Sarah: And that became another point to reflect. on, what work meant to me, what I was getting from work, what, what were the downsides of work and actually what might be a different way of, me working and finding more fulfillment from work. And that's where my private practice started to develop from.

[00:15:16] Advice for someone pursuing a career in clinical

[00:15:16] Ross: Thank you so much for being so open and role modeling a bit about your career, because I love to ask my guests this because it's never a linear thing. There's always twists and turns and pivots and people who influence you and, things that happen like putting on another Clin Psych course and invite you to join.

[00:15:37] Ross: And it's how we respond to those, those things that happen around us that can can really take us in new directions. And just before we move off from from a bit about your history, is there anything you'd say to somebody considering a career in clinical psychology today?

[00:15:56] Sarah: Yeah, so just getting as much experience, different experience that [00:16:00] you can that's relevant to clinical psychology, um, being prepared for the rejections. I mean, they have expanded the courses hugely, and I think there's a plan to continue. to expand clinical psychology, which is great from my perspective. but, you know, there are a lot of people that do undergrad degrees. So, there's still going to be a lot of competition. I think from, from my story, what I would say is be considering a plan B as well, alongside, your plan A.

[00:16:26] Sarah: but I think it's such a fascinating, job. and there's, So many different, directions you can go in so many different clinical groups, you can work with different psychological models. and it's just, such a privilege that people want to share their story with you and are prepared to allow you to see them kind of at their most distressed.

[00:16:50] Sarah: And that's something I try not to take for granted, meaning.

[00:16:53] Ross: it's great to get your perspective on that I love that, not taking it for granted and, I guess it's that privilege of someone being prepared to be to be vulnerable in front of another human being.

[00:17:06] Section 4: ACT;

[00:17:06] Ross: Right. Well, we touched a little bit on acts, but would you like to share with the viewers and the listeners where we met Sarah?

[00:17:16] Sarah: yeah. So, um, we met when, when you were doing some training, um, when I was working in slam and, uh, it was around Using ACT to help people in the workforce, wasn't it?

[00:17:28] Ross: Yeah, I think me and Paul came to, To the slam. I was gonna say the compound. I don't know what's happened to my vocabulary today. the slam estate.

[00:17:39] Ross: And we were in a, what I might call with the greatest of respect a typical NHS room that was either too hot or too cold. but it was a great group of people. And I remember, um, you very kindly offered me and Paul a lift back to the nearest station and we started to chat then you were telling me a bit about it.

[00:17:57] Ross: Your ideas and your thoughts around act and [00:18:00] organizations. And I can mentioned earlier, we ended up working together with a, with quite a prestigious organization in Cork. We had a little adventure. And I've been back to SLAM this year, actually. I did a one day act based session for, for some leaders there.

[00:18:15] Ross: And I was in the fabulous venue of the museum.

[00:18:20] Sarah: Oh, yes, that's lovely. Yeah.

[00:18:22] Sarah: I'm really glad that they've continued to, to, to take that model forwards. Because I, I left not long after. We did that training, I think. So I never got to see the rollout of it.

[00:18:34] Sarah: but I found it, so powerful that ACT just really normalizes the human experience, doesn't it? And, it, just breaks down those barriers around them and us, you know, clients or patients and us as staff members. so yeah, I really like it from that perspective and, Having found such value from it personally when I was going through a really difficult work experience.

[00:18:57] Sarah: And it really helping me realize much I'd focused on work, to the expense of some of my other values in life, and whilst there was a lot that was outside of my control, there were things that I could do to redress that balance.

[00:19:13] Ross: Thank you. It's really powerful to hear you speak about the impact of ACT in your life and the perhaps through, that work experience, you were not paying as much attention or noticing as much what was going on in the rest of your life.

[00:19:26] Ross: Definitely. And I'm going to resist going down that rabbit hole. I'm desperate to talk about your book. Let's, let's move on to your book, Sarah. And folks, I was really fortunate that Sarah shared with me an advanced copy of the almost Final, final draft of the book, and I was privileged enough to be asked to write a review.

[00:19:56] Ross: And by the way, my dad has received my hard copy. So [00:20:00] he's slightly confused and also delighted once I've explained. So I look forward to holding that in my hands as well.

[00:20:08] My Review of the book

[00:20:08] Ross: But I'd like to share with everyone my review of the book, if I may. So in reading this book, I've discovered many things. I already knew that Sarah is a highly experienced and skilled clinical psychologist, as well as being a wife, a mother, a daughter, a sister, and a friend.

[00:20:27] Ross: After reading this book, I can confidently say that Sarah is also a highly skilled storyteller. She takes the reader on a journey through her experience and powerfully incorporates the perspectives from her different life roles. I see the values of openness, generosity, humor, courage, and above all, humanity, shining through every page of this book.

[00:20:50] Ross: Sarah has skillfully combined a devastating life experience with evidence based behavioral science to write a book that truly brings to life Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and makes it useful, accessible, and practical guide. Bravo, from the bottom of my heart, Sarah. Absolutely. Hats off.

[00:21:09] Ross: Thank you.

[00:21:10] Sarah: Thank you. I was so touched to receive, that. I think I replied to you and said I had tears rolling down my face. Yeah,

[00:21:18] Ross: in Costa Coffee, I think. In Costa Coffee. Soz. So let's,

[00:21:24] Section 5: The Book - Background Emma to split audio

[00:21:24] Ross: let's. If I may, let me just dive into asking a few questions about the book. But I guess my first question, Sarah, is what's the idea to write the book?

[00:21:35] Ross: Something that came to you in a flash? Combining act with your lived experience or was it a slow burn that kind of just kept niggling,

[00:21:43] Sarah: I guess a bit of both in that the, the idea came in a flash, but the kind of actual writing of it and came in more of a slow burn. But yeah, I was lying awake one night.

[00:21:55] POSS INTRO

[00:21:55] Sarah: Just a day or so after my diagnosis and unable to sleep [00:22:00] with all of this stuff going around in my head. And never have really been a writer before I just had this urge to get up and, and write and I, thought that that. Might help. And I don't know how long I was sat at my computer for at 2am in the morning, but it just seemed to kind of flow out of me.

[00:22:21] Sarah: And I got to the end of kind of writing about what had happened so far, and suddenly thought, Oh, this could be a book. And I even typed that at the end of what I'd written. And I looked back on, on what I'd written and, I started to see the ACT skills that were coming in that I was using.

[00:22:41] Sarah: it did really help me in order, you know, I got back to sleep once I went to bed. But this idea about could this be a book was, continuing to germinate in my mind. You know, I said to myself, Oh, I must continue to write like this. I didn't , um, which is, I was really disappointed about when I came back to what I had, I had written that night when I was actually writing the book because I expected to go back and, and see something that I thought was a complete jumbled mess given the state of mind that I was in.

[00:23:10] Sarah: But actually, I read it back and went, actually, that's all right. And, uh, that's formed a chunk of the diagnosis chapter. so the idea continued to grow. And I was working with ACP UK, as you said earlier, and, they partnered with, Sequoia Books. And, then we were sort of brainstorming ideas.

[00:23:30] Sarah: for books we might want to, publish. And, to begin with, I didn't dare mention it. That, voice of, it's not good enough, what will people think? was just shouting very loudly. And then, I managed to take that step forward and, and put forward the suggestion. And, ACP loved it. And

[00:23:50] Emma to split audio

[00:23:50] Sarah: the publisher loved it.

[00:23:51] Sarah: So all of a sudden it was like, Oh, okay, I'm doing this now.

[00:23:57] Ross: you know, you know, when we do act training, we talk about [00:24:00] towards moves that moment when you said, I've got this idea feels like such a values driven towards move for you. Yeah,

[00:24:09] Sarah: absolutely.

[00:24:10] Section 6: Why use ACT?

[00:24:10] Ross: Wow. And forgive me if this seems just like an obvious question, but why, why did you think ACT would be a useful sort of combo?

[00:24:18] Ross: Why did you think it would be useful for people?

[00:24:21] Sarah: Well, as I say, you know, I just found that I've got training in lots of different psychological models, but that seemed to be where I was, coming back to, I think the medical treatment I received was absolutely amazing all through the NHS and through COVID as well it was absolutely faultless. but I found that emotional support a lot. Somewhat lacking. and, was just reflecting on, act in its way that it normalizes human emotions.

[00:24:49] Sarah: And, helps you recognize when you're getting hooked by thoughts and stepping back from them. I just thought would be useful for everyone in this position, I'm sure, you know, I experienced some really dark thoughts at times. And that's just not me as a person I'm a kind of. positive, sunshine kind of person most of the time.

[00:25:12] Sarah: So having these kind of thoughts were really alien to me. and of course there were times when, I didn't manage that stepping back and I did get really caught up in them. so, yeah, I just thought if I could share some of those skills and how to recognize What your mind's telling you and step back from that, take a different approach to them.

[00:25:31] Sarah: Um, allow, allow the feelings to be there, but also keep doing what's important to you. Just felt, kind of felt like I had a duty to share that really.

[00:25:41] Ross: Wow, you give, you give me goosebumps. And another thing I now want to add to my review is too late. But it's, the way you unpack this of people in such an open way and encourage them to.

[00:25:53] Ross: be kind and curious and compassionate about their own experience. I think that comes across quite [00:26:00] magnificently in the book too, your role modeling through the book, it's such a, unique thing. And I'd like to share the chapter headings with folks, just to convey how the broad journey is presented.

[00:26:14] Section 7: Structure of the Book

[00:26:14] Ross: And so it's chapter one is introduction, then we move on to diagnosis. Chapter three is telling people. Chapter four is surgery. Five is treatment. Six is body image. And seven is living in the present and there's a, there's a conclusion at the end. And I guess my curiosity is, did, did you write it in that order or were you just writing and writing and then put the jigsaw together?

[00:26:39] Sarah: No, I did pretty much write it in that order. I think I'm quite a structured, logical person. And so kind of going through was the kind of chronological order for me. Not everyone might follow that treatment pathway, some people. might have surgery say after other medical treatments, but yeah, for me, that's how, I wrote in the kind of stages that I went through and maybe that's also something about how I tried to approach it when I was going through the treatment is that, I knew I had months of treatment ahead of me. I knew I had lots of different types of treatment ahead of me and that was really scary, but I just had to focus on what I was.

[00:27:15] Sarah: Going through at that moment, and not worry about what was going to come next. So I think, I wrote in that kind of order and it did just seem to flow quite easily. Strangely enough, yeah, I was kind of thinking about that idea that everyone has a book in them. Suddenly it felt like, oh, I do have a book in me, um, never having thought that before.

[00:27:36] Sarah: so yeah, it seemed to come together relatively easily.

[00:27:40] Ross: And it feels like that writing process was quite cathartic or even dare I use the word therapeutic for you getting it out there on the page seems like a very act phrase to use getting out there.

[00:27:52] Sarah: Yeah, no, it definitely was. I mean it was emotional at times there were sections that, you know, I could barely see the [00:28:00] screen when I was writing because of the tears. then, you know, I'd read it. back to edit it and the tears would come again, but eventually I got to be able to read it without the tears coming. So, it was, it was definitely helpful.

[00:28:12] Ross: And Sarah, were there times when it felt like just too difficult? Oh, I'm going to, I'm kind of going to pack this in. This is, this is just, Too much.

[00:28:20] Sarah: Yeah, I mean, when I was having those moments to begin with, definitely, and there were definitely times when I avoided writing because I knew I was going to have to write about a different difficult point in that journey.

[00:28:33] Sarah: plus. You know, when I thought about not just the writing of it, but the sharing of it, the being so open and this being out there in the world and me having no control over who sees it, was really, really scary. it's still scary. In fact, that's maybe even more scary now it's out. even during writing, it was still a kind of hypothetical book.

[00:28:54] Emma to split audio here

[00:28:54] Sarah: so yeah, I guess I just had to keep coming back to my, my values about, wanting to make something from this experience that I've been through to help others. as well as the support that my friends and family have given me. I've got one very good friend who just, every time I saw her, she would just tell me how proud she was of me for writing this book. And so, um, that kind of support kept me going.

[00:29:17] Ross: Wow thank you. Now Sarah, is there, is there a passage you'd be willing to share with us from the book, just to give folks, if they haven't come across it, just an idea of, your style, I guess.

[00:29:29] Sarah: Yeah, so I'm going to read part of that diagnosis chapter that I just talked about.

[00:29:34] Sarah: Um, so just little bit of background. So I'd gone to the hospital having noticed something, but not being particularly. concerned, I thought it would, it would be nothing. I felt quite nervous about this bit. So bear with me.

[00:29:50] Sarah: So I think it's cancer. The doctor said, I struggled to understand hadn't the mammogram been normal. It turns [00:30:00] out that if you have dense breasts, cancer may not show up on a mammogram. I'll send you off for a blood test and we'll get the results of the biopsies in a week, but I'll be very surprised if it's not cancer.

[00:30:11] Sarah: Oh, that's all I could manage to say, and I took a few sips of my almond milk latte that I'd brought along in a thermos mug. This helped me to ground in that moment, having become aware that I was suddenly felt disconnected from my body and the situation. I was observing the scene from above, witnessing myself sitting with the doctor, not feeling present in my own body.

[00:30:39] Sarah: Then you'll see the surgeon and he can talk you through whether you have part of the breast removed or all of it. Oh, I said again. The nurse who was across the room, sideways onto me, labelling up the biopsy samples turned and said, It's quite a lot of information you've just been given.

[00:30:56] Sarah: Are you okay? Bring someone with you for the next appointment, the doctor said. Okay, I said, and the nurse showed me out. You can have a seat in the waiting room for a few minutes if you like, she said. But I wanted to be away from staring eyes. I wondered if I had the look of someone who's just been told they have cancer, whatever that looks like. I managed to find a seat in a quiet corridor and just sat for a few minutes taking deep breaths and just observing what was going through my mind. A few tears trickled down my face. But I knew I had to keep it together in order to drive home. Somehow I made it to the car, realizing that I'd be getting a parking ticket and a post as I'd exceeded the parking time in Tesco.

[00:31:45] Sarah: I drove home, my right arm feeling slightly numb from the local anaesthetic. As I pulled onto the drive, I had the thought, this is the first time I'm pulling onto the drive with cancer. Although the truth was that, of course, I'd had it at least a little while [00:32:00] already. I took some more deep breaths, preparing myself for seeing my husband and telling him the devastating news.

[00:32:08] Ross: Thank you. Thank you, Sarah. Any, any more words from me? seem redundant. So I'll let your words speak for themselves. Thank you so much for, sharing that with us and giving us a flavor of, the vulnerability with which this book is written. Amazing.

[00:32:25] Section 8: Story behind cover

[00:32:25] Ross: So I saw a video of you unpacking the hard copies and I understand there's a, story behind the cover

[00:32:33] Sarah: So yeah, this, this artwork that sits behind, um, it was done by a friend of mine. so this was someone that I, I didn't really know before my diagnosis we had a lot of mutual friends. but I didn't know her very well.

[00:32:46] Sarah: But once I got my diagnosis, people kept saying, you need to speak to Caroline, because Caroline had been, a cancer sufferer for some years already. She never had breast cancer, but she had several other types of cancer. And so I approached her, not knowing anybody else who had gone through this. And she was so so kind in her support.

[00:33:08] Sarah: And so we became quite good friends over the coming months. Caroline was an artist, so that's her artwork, but sadly she died a couple of years ago. And so I really wanted to use this as an opportunity to kind of honor her memory, and to share her artwork with the world.

[00:33:28] Ross: Well, thank you.

[00:33:29] Ross: That's, uh, it's, it's beautiful. And that's a beautiful symbol of your, your friendship. Now, just thinking if I got this right, this is part of a series. You're, you're the pioneer. You're the first one, but there's more to be coming. Is that right?

[00:33:44] Sarah: Yes, gosh, a pioneer. I've never considered myself that.

[00:33:49] Sarah: But yes, once I've had the idea for my book, and that was so well received by ACP UK and Sequoia, I suddenly thought, actually, this could be a [00:34:00] series of books written by clinical psychologists who have experience their own challenge in some way. and who could also talk from their own perspective of going through something as well as, um, their expertise as a psychologist.

[00:34:14] Sarah: So yeah, I'm now the series editor for, um, at the moment, nine books, coming out on a range of topics. the, the next one is Coping with Trauma, and I've had the pleasure of reading it, and it's amazing. And it's really going to help so many people.

[00:34:32] Sarah: I'm going to be so delighted to see each of these, these books coming out, and it's really lovely that we're all working together as a group we kind of meet every few weeks to talk about the challenges of, of writing in general, but also about writing in general. Writing from this dual perspective of lived experience And yeah, and I'll be even more excited to see others coming out because it won't also have the anxiety of it being my own work and other people reading that.

[00:35:02] Ross: yeah, it sounds like you've got quite a community there supporting each other, which is tremendous.

[00:35:08] Section 9: Advice; spoons?

[00:35:08] Ross: Now you know, Sarah, that we are a work psychology podcast, and obviously people in the workplace experience breast cancer, so I just thought we'd have a couple of questions just about... Any advice you could give, perhaps someone who's been diagnosed and considering how to tell their workplace, their boss or their colleagues, anything you'd say to them?

[00:35:28] Sarah: I think take it slowly, consider what you want to share and with whom, you know, this is your story, you can own the narrative on this, obviously work need to know something, um, but the level of detail is really up to you, you know, I'm, I'm quite an open person, I've tended to share quite a lot, Uh, I did with work in the beginning cuz I literally just resigned when I received my diagnosis.

[00:35:51] Sarah: So I did have to, to tell work. obviously depending on what treatment you're going through, um, will depend on how visible it's gonna be [00:36:00] to others. so that's maybe something to consider as well as talking to your medical team about what the likely impact will be of your treatment on work. and I think just trying to.

[00:36:11] Sarah: Be flexible around your ideas around work, because even with the medical team saying what what the likely impact is, you really don't know how you personally are going to be able to tolerate the medical treatment and how you're going to be emotionally. So I think, try not to make any big decisions, take it slowly think about what's going to be most effective. For you.

[00:36:37] Ross: Lovely, thank you. And then from the other perspective, the boss or the colleague, and they know that someone's had a diagnosis or is having treatment, I've seen people make a royal hash of these conversations, either just completely avoiding it or completely avoiding the person or just making a right pig's ear of it. any tips for someone who's feeling that sort of fear of saying the wrong thing?

[00:36:59] Sarah: Yeah, I think the first thing is, I think it's okay to say, I don't know what to say. I've certainly had people say that to me, and if that's delivered in a kind of way that's saying, but I, I see your pain and I'm here alongside you, I think actually that's quite, that's quite okay.

[00:37:15] Sarah: I think also don't make assumptions about what's going to be the right thing for the person. Um, actually I did have my own experience of this before my diagnosis that one of my team got breast cancer and I was, I was kind of really shocked that she just didn't want to be signed off for the whole time and, you know, not think about work at all.

[00:37:35] Audio Emma to split

[00:37:35] Sarah: But once I got my own diagnosis, I realized actually how important work was in kind of keeping me well and keeping some sense of normality. And so I think, as a, as a boss or a colleague, just don't make assumptions about what might be right for, the person in front of you. and yeah, just being as flexible as you can with how you can adapt work to enable the person to work if that's what they want to do to, you know, [00:38:00] to find a way that makes work possible through the treatment.

[00:38:04] Ross: Thank you. It, it's so, it's so great to get your, your wisdom on that giving someone a, guide or at least a starting point rather than that just completely avoidant. So, so thank you.

[00:38:16] Spoonspotential

[00:38:16] Ross: Now, you'll be aware on people's soup that we like to ask people a, maybe a quite an unusual question, but if you had a song that would announce your arrival in a room, whether it's a virtual room, whether you're going to the supermarket, or you're arriving home, A song that will play when you arrived over the next few weeks, not forever, but what would that song be for you, Sarah?

[00:38:37] Sarah: This is such a tricky one, because as I said earlier, I love my music, there's so much music that's meaningful to me, but I've gone with a current, I think it's their current single, so Nothing But Thieves, a song called Overcome, so it's Really upbeat. And whenever I feel like whenever I hear it, I feel like dancing.

[00:38:55] Sarah: Um, which is a struggle when it comes onto my playlist, when I'm at the gym . but, uh, so I like it from that perspective and I like that an image of me walking into a room and dancing along to it. but the, the lyrics also, resonate, with some of my experience. Um, there's a line when you said the pain weather's in time.

[00:39:12] Sarah: and we, we don't always get all that we want, but we redefine the pain to something more. And, we shall overcome as we've done before.

[00:39:20] Ross: Wow. Thank you. Now I'm not familiar with this, this. Parade Sarah, but, um, when I do magically produce a podcast episode from this, what I'll do is I'll, I'll play a bit of that in the background.

[00:39:33] Ross: So Sarah, thank you for producing such a work of significance to support other human beings, your expertise and your vulnerability will resonate and serve many.

[00:39:45] Ross: So a final word from you, Sarah, if you will.

[00:39:50] Sarah: Oh, well, thank you so much, Ross, for, for, hosting this today. it's been a kind of scary process, but, um, actually a really enjoyable one. And, [00:40:00] um, I'm really touched by everyone's comments. so yeah, thank you to everyone for making, the time to, to come today out of your busy days.

[00:40:07] Ross: Thank you. Thank you, Sarah, for being my first guest from my summer series. You're a legend, you're a pioneer, and thank you so much. And thanks to everyone for joining us. We really appreciate it.

[00:40:19] That said folks Sarah's episode in the back. Thanks so much to Sarah for her open and powerful reflections. And for putting this book out there in the world. I know it will be so useful to so many. Please have a think about people in your life who might appreciate this book. Point them to this episode or directly to the book.

[00:40:44] Even better. Why not buy it for them? What an outstanding and thoughtful gift.

[00:40:49] Pea soup, as we love to get your reviews and you can post them directly on the socials or even on WhatsApp where that modern, all the details are in the show notes for this episode.

[00:40:59] Ross: If you like this episode of the podcast, please, could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe to the podcast and give us a five star review. Whatever platform you're on, and particularly if you're on Apple Podcasts, the Apple charts are really important in the podcast industry.

[00:41:18] Ross: And number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This will all help us reach more people with stuff that could be. I'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at people soup dot pod gmail.com. On Twitter, we are at People Soup Pod on Instagram at People dot Soup.

[00:41:34] Ross: And on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod. thanks to Andy Klan for his Spoon Magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocal. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now. I actually really enjoyed it. well, hopefully it came across as a, Relaxed

[00:41:54] Ross: chat. Well, I think it did. I think, crikey, Sarah, I think you're a natural[00:42:00]